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Unlike stereotypical lesbians, stereotypical gay (and bi) men are in shape and attractive.
I can't tell whether you are talking about me or HINT's girlfriend when you say:
"Sounds like you aren't happy with anything your partner does for you unless your partner is somehow suffering in the process."
If this is meant to refer to me, that's not true at all.
I have dated a foot fetishist before, and, at least in his case, there was very little in it for me. I don't especially care for foot rubs, and having my toes licked or sucked does nothing for me whatsoever. I will happily indulge such behavior in the "no skin off my teeth" category (or ggg as we call it hereabouts) if it makes my partner happy, but I don't agree that "I suspect he is perfectly capable of giving her feet some genuinely nice attention. She gets her feet pampered, he gets his rocks off. What's not to like?" My preference would be to have my feet not paid attention to. I can't speak for for this letter writer's girlfriend, but not everyone would like to have a foot massage, and for some foot fetishists, the "pampering" consists of (or culminates in) having a guy beat off against your foot, which isn't perhaps what a squeamish type wants.
Lastly, you say: "Where does this "honesty" foolishness fit into the equation? If your feet are getting the royal treatment, what the hell difference does it make what my motivations are for doing it?" Um . . . if you're committing a sex act on someone and passing it off as a nonsexual act for their comfort, that's at best icky. And honesty about sexual interests is "foolishness?" If that's what you really believe, I find that depressing.
yeah, like I said, I'd consider those things if I was with someone who's into feet and I felt a need to indulge them? But I'm not so I don't. I'm also pretty embarassed of my feet so I wouldn't want someone touching them unless I had to.
I have a pretty mild mannered friend who was recently mocked by a coworker for being "vanilla". One person's "fun and kinky" is another person's "high maintainance". One person's "vanilla" is another person's "easygoing". We're all different from eachother, that's what makes things interesting.
My one friend was having hot sex with a guy and then he said "I want to put on your panties and then I want you to fuck me I'm the ass with your dildo". And she was like, Ok, why not?. And then that was a regular part of their sex life. It's worth noting that this was a down-n-dirty hookup and the guy had a girlfriend who didn't know about his fetishes. My friend thought it was interesting and liked it but she didn't form a lifelong habit. She also was more into it because he was a great lover in other ways. I also think that maybe bi girls would be better sex candidates for x-dressers because bi girls are attracted to girl stuff. A 'girl' with a cock might be a great idea, for a bi girl.
This isn't "passing it off." He made it perfectly clear what his desires and experience of the situation would be. SHE was the one who was falsely framing the situation in terms of it being some sort of bullshit altruism (which he should then be blamed for).
And that's the context in which my comment was made: one where you are already sexual partners, one where you already know that you find each other arousing on general principles, and you already know exactly what a specific act does for the other person. To hear you talk, one would think I had been advocating giving a backrub to an unsuspecting first date in order to secretly get off at their expense. No, what I meant was exactly what you said: "no skin off my teeth" (nose, actually), not "passing it off."
(Change the context sufficiently and you can disprove practically anything, speaking of dishonesty.)
Personally, sucking my wife's toes doesn't do all that much for me, either -- EXCEPT knowing that it makes her come harder, which actually counts for quite a bit. HINT's girlfriend (and some other people around here) would do well to reflect on that effect.
Personally, I want my partner to derive pleasure, which is why I've done a whole lot of things I wasn't particularly into; and speaking only for myself, I don't want my feet massaged, and it's not because I'm embarrassed. It just doesn't feel that good to me.
But if a partner got off on licking my feet, I'd let him . . . I have.
There's a difference and it sounds to me like you're conflating the letters. My comments are limited to HINT's situation.
Those are two reasons why I occasionally find myself sincerely lamenting the fact that I am not a lesbian. Though I don't blame men for being attracted to looks, I just find those "looks" so damn uncomfortable and ridiculous on me.
So why wouldn't straight women feel the same about Bi men?
The only person who has brought the angle of "dishonesty" into the discussion is #102 and #114, which is...uh, you.
I just went back and re-read that other one from the link in #29, and it appears that Dan quite forcefully states the same opinion in this general area. Insisting that the only kind of pleasure that he is allowed to get out of the interaction is what you say he can is selfish and controlling.
If you simply dislike being touched in this particular way or on that particular body part, that's one thing. But being scandalized by finding out that your boyfriend is quietly getting off on touching some part of your body? Sheesh. The reason he is your "boyfriend," as opposed to just "a friend," is the sexual component of the relationship. You don't get to turn his passion on and off like a master switch. If you are squicked out by the idea of your boyfriend getting turned on by touching you, maybe you shouldn't have a boyfriend.
"Well, if a woman can't take something so innocuous and innocent as a guy beating off against her foot, then she should frankly go back to the convent she crept out of and stay there. This isn't even a fetish."
That's a pretty intolerant thing to say. Maybe she should just find a guy who isn't into feet.
If you had've actually read anything I wrote (and I believe your post after that one is referring to me) you would see two things.
I am embarassed of my feet because one of them is somewhat malformed. Not because it's a foot. I also said (twice!) that if I was with someone I loved I'd be willing to indulge their fetish.
But (since you're being antagonistic) if I was in a casual encounter I'd drop that guy so fast. Why? Because I can.
So I say, get a new girlfriend, one you can trust, and if she's willing to work with you, do be careful that you don't start treating her like a pair of feet that happen to have a girl attached.
I am not a selfish lover; the phrase "what's in it for me" and its attendant attitude don't play a role in my sex life.
I have had partners interested in all kinds of things I wasn't, and I indulged practically every single thing. Some of these acts or interests ended up becoming a staple of my erotic life and some became objects of my erotic interest. Frequently, I was thrilled with the addition, and these acts acquired some very positive associations, incorporating themselves into my erotic life long after the relationship that introduced me to them had ended. Some I tolerated gamely and graciously because they cost me very little and they made my partner so very happy. Some were really distasteful to me, but my partner's pleasure was important to me, so I also incorporated them.
In this week's letter, HINT's girlfriend doesn't complain of his dishonesty--she merely reacts childishly "upping the kink ante" as it might seem to her, only to laugh at him and tell him to lower his standards. I don't know what's going on with her, but he's hoping she is trying to tell him about a real kink of hers, and most of us think she's doing something cruel. I think she is scared of indulging something she sees as deviant (for the record, *I* agree that a foot fetish is one of the most common and least deviant kinks, and perhaps the easiest to indulge, even if you don't have it yourself), and is reacting childishly and poorly.
But I think the issue could be dealt with if, rather than HINT trying to assure her that he'd indulge her kinks (even if they gross him out, like the pooing), HINT were initiate another conversation about her and her feet and what he'd like to do and what he isn't interested in. He should tell her (if it's true) that this kink isn't the tip of a kink iceberg, that poo-eating or what-have-you aren't lurking and waiting to surface. That may be what she's fearing.
Someone @29 brought up an old letter in which a girl found out that the foot rubs her boyfriend was "nicely" giving her were turning him on and were inspired by his erotic interest in feet rather than merely by his attempt to be considerate (though she enjoyed the benefits of the attention just fine when she thought they were selfless acts of devotion). She was horrified and disgusted at the thought of a foot-fetishist.
This is the letter that seems to me to warrant some of the harsher comments that I have been responding to.
But in both cases, in any case, I don't understand your objection to honesty. HINT's gf isn't being honest with him--she's jerking the poor guy around so she can laugh at him and probably put him down, maybe even use emotional blackmail against him later. She should honestly tell him what her objections to having him "go to town on her feet" are and then they can deal with them. Even in the earlier letter, I think that the bf should have made it clear that while she was enjoying the foot rub, and he was happy to give her that pleasure, he was also doing it for an erotic charge. She is a horrible, judgmental witch, true, but she felt misled and manipulated and a bit humiliated, I suspect, since she didn't assign a sexual aspect to the foot rubs. She felt she had been used for a sexual purpose without her knowledge and permission. That doesn't mean her "I hate fetishists and I don't want to date a fetishist" is an attitude I agree with.
To justify your own behavior--whatever it may be--by saying, "hey, you got something out of it, so what do yo care what the reason I did it was?," "who cares about this honesty crap," or "You're so selfish you only want something if your partner has to suffer to provide it" is to miss the point.
It doesn't seem like you are going to get anyone to own the phrase "honesty crap" (hello @119) with all its implications. You've been quite clear and reasonable in your views.
Making my man order stuff from xdress!
But then, I'm into Bdsm and inflicting embarrassment/submission with "forced feminization"
As a straight female I don't see the appeal of FMF threesomes. I tried MFM before but getting fought over is more sexy in theory than it is in practice.
I'm not saying that a woman needs to be bi to participate I'm just sayin'
I guess it's weird because I've hooked up with ladies before... but... I don't know. I just don't want to go halfsies on a man anymore than I want to go halfsies on a cupcake.
“Ironic how men crossdressing often fear that they may be perceived as not straight”
Well yeah, this is how society usually perceives us, including women we want to date or are already dating and the subject comes up.
As for...” cross dressing kinks are confined to straight porn”…
I’m having a hard time finding such videos and wonder if you could help me with titles and venues that carry them. And I hope the scenarios depicted go beyond that of “a domina force-feminizing a dude”
As far as going "halfsies on a man," that interpretation also seems strange to me: is it that different than, say, a few minutes of oral, a few minutes of kissing, a few minutes of penetration, a few minutes of touching, if the other girl takes whatever parts you're not using? She gets his dick while you get his mouth or hands, and vice versa. And then there's the fun of watching as well.
I know everyone's different, and it's fine if it's not your thing; the language you use just seems like it comes from a very different view or interpretation than I would expect.
What I find sexy is someone who knows what he likes and isn't terrified to own it. Also boundary pushing, willingness to experiment... oh, so many things. Since I also love the feel of silk and the look of lingerie on myself, it's not at all difficult to understand why a guy might enjoy the same experience - especially lingerie that fits well and is made for him. Excuse me, I need to go look at that site some more.
It's not really so much related to any specific act or game plan, it's more just a vibe. It may have had something to do with the people involved, or the competitiveness or other context. People's past experiences can also shape how things feel. Though when I was younger I was perpetually throwing myself into risky situations and rarely felt threatened by them, this was one situation where I actually did feel anxious and etc. Considering how seveeerely blunted my ability to feel anxiety or fear was by age/hormones/recreational drugs, the fact that I still did feel it was a red flag for me.
Maybe threesomes just aren't for me.
As for FFM, your description seems self explainatory to me?
Parts I'm not using? That implies that I don't want the whole person for the whole duration. I do. First of all, I don't want to give up the penis. (Men still only have one of those, right? :p) I also don't want to give up the hands, or the mouth. I have ZERO interest in watching other people have sex (I don't even watch porn). I just don't understand the appeal.
If you're getting a massage, do you want the person to swap between you and someone else during your session? When you're having a conversation with a friend do you want to alternate between them talking to you and talking on the phone with someone else? If you're on a plane do you want the pilot to alternate between flying and writing the great American novel?
I get that some people are super into threesomes and I know they're really hyped and stuff but I just don't get it myself.
reread what I wrote, you completely misunderstood it.
They were fully involved with me the whole time.
The switching analogy came after my description of threesomes with two females, not after the two males part.
And, I wouldn’t mind dating a foot fetishist… ;)
I think a better analogy (at least from the point of view from someone who does like threesomes) would be a conversation between three people, which is very different from a one-on-one conversation but can still be a good experience. For instance, one person might ask the other two "what do you think about X?" and hear each of their opinions in turn; or everyone could share stories; or there might be times where two of the people go off on a conversational tangent for a short time, before the conversation returns to include the third person.
That makes perfect sense.
But you're right, I do really enjoy the one on one aspect. It's funny, I actually much much prefer having one on one conversations as well. But you made a good point.
you're right, you can't argue with anatomy. :p
A bi boyfriend may be a compromise for most women, but my advice for the guys this week is to focus on finding the women--however few and far between they may be--for whom a bi boyfriend would be a godsend. Please stop staying in the closet and making it so hard for people like you and people like me to be happy!
Someone asked why being with a bi guy hotter than being with a straight guy. For me it's a mix of things.
1. I like guys with a raging sex drive, so I get turned on at how him wanting to fuck both guys and girls reflects that. (Same reason why kink is important.)
2. I like watching guys fuck. Plain and simple. It's hot, in the same way that guys like to watch lesbians fuck.
3. I like a guy who is mostly dominant but who also has a submissive streak. I love the idea of the guy who usually dominates me getting fucked/sucking cock and enjoying it.
4. I really like MFM three-ways where the males are into each other and also into me.
As for why I find these things hot, it's similar to why crossdressing is hot---if done by a hot masculine guy. Part of enjoying your masculinity is to explore the polar opposite. I think it's about getting off on transforming yourself into the object that you desire. If you find something hot in someone else, it's easy to sexualize it in yourself as well. Likewise, part of finding a submissive partner hot is to adopt the submissive role yourself on occasion so that you can enjoy being that thing which you find so hot. And for me, part of my attraction to men is fueled by an attraction to the idea of a man transposing my attraction to him to another male. I guess I tend to find sexuality reflexive and get turned on by people who have similarly reflexive patterns of attraction.
monkeywithcarkeys- Thanks for your comment @148. And if you live in the Seattle area than you may not need the pics anymore as I will gladly throw a live modeling show for you!
(e.g., on Colbert "Straight women have to be realistic about what men are and what men like." and in your NYT profile "The mistake that straight people made, was imposing the monogamous expectation on men.")
Setting aside, even, the issue of whether or not this is accurate—I personally don't believe sluttiness has much to do with gender—how is it a useful stereotype to reinforce? Any hetero- and mono-normative people reading you are likely to think, "This is exactly why women need to be a civilizing influence a rest." Please give the gender angle a rest. We're all people and we all have equal potential to be slutty.
You didnt mention it, but you have to figure out where the fear of rejection is coming from. Is it physical or emotional?
I've been dating a truly BI guy for a few years. He was terrified of dating and rejection when we met, but slowly he realized that the fear was worse than any rejection was.
In his case he's short, but otherwise sexy as hell. Most girls dismiss him because of his height and it made him leary of dating, but to a Bi-loving gay dude like me, he's perfect.
You'll find someone thats perfect for you. But you have to put yourself out there.
You're completely right, except for one word.
I mean, that may be right, but it remains to be seen.
I do think that it appears men have a GREATER chance of being slutty but I've met a lot of slutty women and my attitudes towards sex myself are very male. When I was single I was on a strict love-em-and-leave-em regimen and I struggled with the very "male" predicament of "oh no, now they're getting feelings".
The flipside being: we both have the potential (although perhaps not equal, for whatever reason) to be monogamous. I even think a person can be both.
How would you feel if Terry wanted to you strap on a prosthetic vagina and eat him out? Because while you are obviously GGG, you also appear to be pretty vagina-averse.
I had a very long ramble, but I deleted it. Bottom line: BPG has to talk about his kink. But dressing it up as a shiny, happy, "Gee honey, there's more to this kink than you thought!" conversation isn't going to make it all better.
I'm GGG, I think Eddie Izzard is smokin' hot, and wouldn't freak if my husband told me he was a cross dresser. Because cross-dressing does not equal sexual identity. (And yes, Tim Curry as Frank-n-Furter was hot. And as noted previously in this sentence, Eddie Izzard is also hot. That bears repetition. ;) )
But if he tacked onto that that he fantasized about sucking dick? Yes, there would be a worrisome, even to a pretty GGG woman. Because then you would have to always be wondering what the hell that means to your sex life and relationship, which is the best way to kill your sex life. Which leads to damaging to your relationship.
Maybe to a gay guy, this is an inconsequential kink. To a straight woman - even an open-minded one - it may not be.
Keep looking! I know that bisexual males face a lot more discrimination. Bisexual females deal with ignorance and stereotypes but not the same disgust.
But, I love a man who takes it up the ass. :) I like to give it up the ass. And hang out with queers or a bisexual group. Kinky people tend to be very flexible about sexual orientations too. So keep looking!
Why would fantasizing about sucking dick need to mean something about your sex life and relationship, any more than other kinks would? It doesn't mean anything except that he thinks about it and gets turned on. This isn't about "straight women," this is about your homophobic reaction to one particular turn-on, which isn't really that different from any other.
You could just as well say "at some point the curiosity about a younger/older/taller/shorter/different looking woman is going to become too strong to resist."
@183, 184: Actually, the relevant statistic is the percentage of bi guys who cheat divided by the percentage of straight guys who cheat. That would tell us if being bi makes one more likely to cheat: i.e., if 20% of straight guys cheat and 25% of bi guys cheat, then being bi slightly increases the chance of cheating.
Confounding factors: bi guys will probably have more of an opportunity to cheat, and bi guys are also probably more likely to be aware and open to non-monogamous relationships.
Thanks for another great column, Dan!
Just give me a man with fishnets. ;)
To HNH, have faith- there are too many beautiful ppl in this crazy world to be so negative. Ppl like ppl its just nature- you'll find them but you should carry yourself around with that confidence & in my experience it happens on its own. And the fact that you are aware that you are attracted to both sexes, is huge. Go you and fuck anybody who disagrees, life's too short to worry about everyone else. Good luck. I'm sure things will turn around, you're young enough. Me not so much.
BPG's post hits close to home for me as my man loves nylons and I think it so sexy of a man to be "in" to nylons but to see him wear them would way HOT! And OMG two men possibilities.... I would feel like a queen. Maybe go buy her a strap-on, I love gifts! So handle your business BPG! You may be able to give her what she didn't even know she's always wanted! Handle it and if you have I hope it was favorable to everyone!
I don't quite understand HINT's problem. I'm still new to all of the verbiage but sounds like she's fishing for more info. I am very picky about feet and my BF has beautiful feet- toes, arches & heels... Gush! So I know where you're coming from. But if you read this, please explain what it means to go to town on them, I'm interested!
The link for this week's column (www.humpseattle.com) is such:
To Savage Love Admin:
Can you STOP naming columns after URLs!?!? Do you realize that, due to the magic that is HTML, this week's column link directs us to humpseattle.com rather than the column we're trying to read?? How about something like "Hump Seattle" or "Hump Seattle Dot Com" in the future?
The column number is 9539475. Open any column and swap the string of numbers at the end of the URL for that.
Pur-leeeeeeeeeeeeeeease, SL admin. This is such a pain every time there's a URL'd column.
Oh, and the dungeon man in satin panty in your link was very sexy.
Gah! I married a straight as a table guy as straight laced as they come. *bangs head on table*
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