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Amen on the advice to DAD - listen to Dan and don't do something stupid that could mess up your dad's life and relationships!
Agreed that said adult child should go on this new job and let this information settle before taking any action.
Personally, it creeps me out – and I say that as someone whose boyfriend is 17 years his junior – but I suspect that most who use those terms in that context aren't fantasizing about actual incest, any more than "bear admirers" fantasize about sex with actual bears.
DAD needs to learn about boundaries, and respect her father as a sexual being in his own right, completely independent of anything that has to do with her. Self centered much? Jesus. Since when does having adult children preclude one from having a separate sexual life? My oldest child is nearly 20, and I have no intention of turning in my sex card, fuck you very much.
One option (if she weren't about to leave the country anyway): she could tell her mother that her dad left some porn visible on the computer. (Please, please, don't specify the details - just say you clicked away as soon as you saw a penis.) In the ensuing brouhaha, the parents will presumably find a solution that gets her out of her dad's house, but without cutting him out of her life.
I don't agree with this premise.
I think "Should I trust what my gut is telling me and pack up, jump in a cab, and never talk to him again?"
Is suggestive that there's something going on beyond just "wow that porn is icky".
In my eyes anyway.
A little white lie goes a long way. And FFS, don't mention that you saw that stuff, especially if you otherwise have a good relationship with your parents. Porn is not necessarily a substitute for something the viewer desires to actually experience.
Yeah, let's go with that...
Really, it's like sharing a toothbrush, or underwear. Sheesh!
It's not the nature of the fantasy that bothers DAD, so much as it is thinking of her father as a sexual being. How dare he?!!!
Get over it, DAD. Your parents don't need to submit their sexual thoughts and fantasies to you for your approval.
For the record, I get off on incest scenarios in my erotic imaginary life. I like to read about them and to role-play with partners (I don't tend to watch video porn). However, not only do I not *approve* of incest in real life, I can think of no one in a million years less sexually appealing to me than any of my family members. DAD, have you ever heard of "make believe?"
Would you like if he decided that made you a pervert, cut off all communication and humiliated you in front of friends and family?
If the answer to that question is 'no' that do what Dan says. Put it down the memory hole and stop acting like your Dad is a pervert because he has fantasy that aren't about having missonary-in-the-dark sex with -insert acceptable person here-.
I thought older guy porn would be an extremely easy porn scenario to find, but I found it surprisingly difficult to get. I didn't want Lolita-type porn, but there wasn't much else available. Other than the gay leather daddy sites, the only other sites I could find were called things like, "fuck me grandpa" with adult actresses in pigtails and knee socks- not quite what I wanted, but the closest I could find to my older guy scenario. I looked at it anyway, because I couldn't find any other age-difference porn.
Maybe DAD just has a kink for younger women with guys his age. Plus, roleplay is just that- roleplay. Most people know the difference between fantasy and reality. As long as DAD didn't do anything creepy in rl, no need to judge the man by his porn viewing. Plus, DAD's daugher would've been horrified and disgusted no matter what porn it was. No one wants to know what their Dad uses to get off!
My only other advice to her would be to use her own personal laptop and/or smartphone to browse at her Dad's place from now on. Or, at the very least, install a separate browser for herself, to avoid having more search history dumped on her.
@17, good point in general, but this kid is 22.
Excellent advice, Dan. You understand well the human psyche. Porn watchers are their own breed and if a person has never watched it, almost any of it seem be sickening. One of the worst experiences I ever had happened on Twitter. I don't use it to this day because of that one incident. Some gay guy posted a porn picture that I clicked on like an idiot. I won't go into the details, but what disturbed me more than the actual shocking image was what my imagination was cooking up about the pure evil that had to exist in the person who posted it. I felt physically ill for several hours. I felt the human race was doomed, not so much because of the porn but because of how Twitter was being used: to inflict shock on total strangers. It was a day I felt the Taliban maybe had a point.
I still feel whoever did that is evil, but the image itself wouldn't freak me out at this time. Porn is so prevalent I wouldn't be surprised if it went mainstream soon. It almost has. Who the h. knows where we're headed as a society and culture. Much of what this fine new information age of ours is bringing isn't so wonderful, but then how is that any different from any other media revolution?
Anyway, DAD, if you're father's behavior is OK then you've got to look at and relate to that. That's the real person. Don't tell me you have never had one icky thought your entire life. I won't believe it. But you still identify yourself as a decent human being, right? If you dislike your father for other reasons, then that's a different story.
Excellent advice, Dan. You understand the human psyche well. Porn watchers are their own breed and if a person has never watched it, almost any of it seems sickening. One of the worst experiences I ever had happened on of all places Twitter. I don't use it to this day because of that one incident. Some gay guy posted a porn picture that I clicked on blithely like an idiot. I won't go into the details, but what disturbed me more than the actual shocking image was what my imagination was cooking up about the pure evil that had to exist in the person who posted it. I felt physically ill for several hours. I felt the human race was doomed, not so much because of the porn but because of how Twitter was being used: to inflict shock on total strangers. It was a day I felt the Taliban maybe had a point.
I still feel whoever did that is evil, but the image itself wouldn't freak me out at this time. Porn is so prevalent now I wouldn't be surprised if it were decreed to have gone mainstream soon. It almost has. Who the h. knows where we're headed as a society and culture. Much of what this fine new information age of ours is bringing isn't so wonderful, but then how is that any different from any other media revolution?
Anyway, DAD, if your father's behavior is OK then you've got to look at and relate to that. That's the real person. Don't tell me you've never had one icky thought your entire life. I won't believe it. But you still identify yourself as a decent human being, right? If you dislike your father for other reasons, then that's a different story.
This case is rather more explicitly about incest than that one, but still, I think that gut reactions from children about their parents' sex lives tend to be gut overreactions. LW should think really, really hard about whether there was any concrete evidence that this was anything but abstract fantasy for the father -- a hugely different concept than if it was about or involved him/her specifically -- before going nuclear on him.
If it was just a glance at the website titles in the history, those can be misleading. (There's a lot of porn about "my sister/mother/son/whatever" that turns out to be about "my sister/mother/son/whatever's hot best friend, who jumps me while sister/mother/son/whoever is off at the store")
On the other hand, if DAD investigated deeply enough to confirm his/her initial impressions, what the hell was he/she doing that for? Invasion of privacy much?
It is possible that the mother isn't totally crazy and would just tell her adult kid to grow up upon learning that s/he saw teh porn, but my experience with divorce dynamics informs me that even sane people become crazy with respect to the former spouse.
A much better solution: why doesn't DAD just go to their mother's house and say s/he just wanted to spend more time with her? Wait out the squicks there. Problem solved.
Stretched out earlabia. That's a new one for me.
DAD, take above advice to heart. Give yourself time to settle into the new gig & new digs. Decide then if something needs to be said. Plenty of people like to look at sick-n-twisted stuff who'd never ever do it IRL. Don't punish your dad for having a moment of dark fantasy. BUT, your letter has me worried that's not all there is to it, too.
To DAD: Dan's right. Has your daddy ever done anything that suggests he wants to actualize those fantasies (is your 'gut feeling', as someone above suggested, based on something other than 'this porn is icky')? Then you may have a real problem. Otherwise, it's just another situation in which finding porn in someone's computer freaks us out because we didn't expect that person (father, mother, brother, sister) to have an interest in that.
If I told you the things I find arousing, you'd probably consider me an icky perv. Yet I'm a successful, well-mannered, I'd even say well-balanced person who doesn't represent a threat to anyone (including my daughter) or to society.
There are bad people out there, and your dad may be one of them. But then again, there also are good people out there, and your dad just might be one of them, too, despite the icky kink (we don't really ask to have the kinks we have, as Dan pointed out). To say nothing of all the in-betweens.
Life's not simple. Whatever you do, there'll be consequences. Just think about it before you act.
(By the way, are you sure it was your father who searched for those sites -- or could it be that some third person used his computer while you weren't looking? You did, so maybe someone else did, too?)
And come on, how can you be a fan of X-men and not want Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch to fuck, seriously. :P
@12: You have a tendency to read abuse into things when it isn't there... DAD said he/she felt disturbed and physically sick, and "going with my gut" in this case meant going with that feeling and his/her instinct.
@24: Now I have to know what the picture was.
Why the fantasy is hot while the reality would be totally gross and depressing is a complete mystery to me.
Dan answered that - "not necessarily". Problem solved.
@11 - she's 22, not 15. If she's got issues with shuffling back and forth between parents' houses, she doesn't need to get her mommy to intervene. Just negotiate a living situation that works, as an adult. "Mom, I'm getting tired of shuffling back and forth. What would you need from me to have it work out if I stayed here fulltime?"
You say that finding out your father watches incest porn "prompts the very reasonable, I think, question - does this mean he wants to do this to me."
What if she'd found centaur porn? Would it be reasonable for her to think her father wants to really find a mythical creature? People do watch porn of things they'd like to do, but they also watch porn all the time, about things they wouldn't do in real life (hello, 40 foot tall woman porn).
The letter writer is judgmental because the dad's porn breaks incest taboos, and because she doesn't want to think of him getting off to something she doesn't approve of. He might well not even transfer those thoughts to his own, real daughter, let alone want to pursue them. Unless she has any reason to think that he is getting off to specific thoughts of her (and even that, if it stays always in the realm of his own imaginative life, seems icky maybe, but as long as it remains unshared, benign and none of her business.) or she thinks he has been planning to try and molest her, this is absolutely about the existence of her father's having a sexual fantasy life which she is disgusted by.
This is breaking news, and I think everyone with an incest fantasy needs to be sterilized and forcibly separated from their children.
33: Better yet, the major browsers now all have a feature called "Private Browsing" or something similar: no cookies, no history, no temp files, no nothing. When you close the browser, all data concerning the private browsing session are wiped. Everyone: use this for porn browsing if you share a computer. That is exactly why it was added.
If dad was watching dad-on-daughter porn, you're a son, and have a sister, well, I may begin to pay some extra attention to her relationship to dad, see if everything seems normal or if there's anything that seems off about it.
Same goes the other way around, if you're a daughter, has a brother, and he was watching dad-on-son porn, try to figure if anything seems wrong with your dad's relationship to his son(s).
Try to be supportive of your siblings, in case they need somebody to talk to. Don't mentioned what you found unless there's a pretext to mentioning it.
If this isn't relevant, Dan's advice is sound.
Once, I heard the shake of a rattle and I jumped sky-high. When I landed, I realized that I had subconsciously thought the rattle was a rattlesnake. Turns out it was only a musical instrument. My reaction hadn't been "correct" but it sure was reasonable!
If she doesn't want to learn about her father's personal life, though, and she can't stop herself from following up on weird things that pop up in the web browser, it's time to leave the nest for good, and find a different place to live when she returns to the States.
Yeah, the economy sucks, it's hard to get a job, blah blah blah, but where there's a will, there's a way--roommates, something to tide one over till a better job comes along, etc.
If you're going to live with your folks as an adult, you've got to afford them as much privacy as you would want them to give you. If you can't do that, it's time to get your own place. Even if the job and first apartment aren't very nice, the peace of mind and the experience of learning how to stand on your own two feet will be worth it. It's possible that the advice-seeker is doing just that by going overseas, of course, and if so, I applaud her for it.
Shouldn't she have a heart for her father? Or at least develop some amnesia?
I think DAD has just as much right to be freaked out as anyone else has to have sexual fantasies. As long as her freakout remains private, as long as she doesn't act on it, why would you vilify her for it?
However, there is no evidence DAD's dad is getting off on actual sex with his, you know, actual daughter. Most "incest" porn is really old guy/younger girl porn which is about as universal as it gets in the porn/kink world. DAD does not seem to appreciate that (most) incest porn on the web (just like most crucifixion/NC/Snuff) involves ACTORS and does not actually involve fathers banging their real daughters.
The previous posters are correct but I would take it even further: DAD is really put off by visualizing her father as a sexual being with actual needs and is using her "discovery" to fuck her dad in real life. Get over it, forget what you saw, and STOP SNOOPING. Oh, and how about get the hell out of the house already.
Stretched out earlobes are gross. If you want something inside to be licked, why not mutilate and stretch out your clit (for gay guys try the glans). A big fat hole there would increase the surface area with the added benefit that at least the rest of us don't have to look at it every day.
Finally, I have never heard of a 30 year old gay man who has only been in two relationships. He needs to find a gay-friendly therapist and unpack this non-consensual pack job that apparently led him into the gay world. I think Dan only included this letter because of the salacious and entirely irrelevant claim that his rapist became a 'born again Christian.'
DS way out of his league with this smug and ill-informed assertion. He writes, "But that's another column." Yes, and another columnist. Or not a columnist at all, but a psychiatrist with a lot of clinical experience.
DS rarely errs in this way -- failing to acknowledge his limitations. Always disappointing when he does.
Unless there is something in your actual relationship to make you feel bad, this isn't a catastrophe. Probably caught wind of My Stepdaddy Made Me #495.
True, it is kind of icky to find out TMI about the 'rents. However, I'm sure you have your kinks and will likely be a parent in the future. They only get better with time!! ;)
Anyhoo, I'd say get a job, but as you live with the rents, you're probably struggling. You do need to find $ to get your own computer/tablet then get a place of your own.
I also agree that you should drop a hint about the 20/20 episode that dealt with clearing your cache.
I can't even guess what someone would think of me if they got a hold of my internet history.
I'm starting to gauge my ears. They don't have to be huge.
And now he's pretty much given the go ahead by Dan to continue. BAM!!!! THE WORLD IS FLIPPED BABY!! WEVE ALL BEEN DUPED!! aaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrgggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes, all of us older folk know that incest porn is quite prevalent and that what a person likes in fantasy may have no relationship to what they like in reality. But all of this may be brand-new, unknown territory to a "young" 22-year-old.
I agree with Dan that the letter-writer needs NOT to out her father and needs to understand that her father can like incest porn without wanting to do anything incestuous in the real world. But geeze, give the kid the benefit of the doubt, okay? We're not born knowing this stuff; we have to learn it somewhere along the line. Today in Dan's column is when and where the letter writer is learning it. Before knowing the things that Dan has just taught her, I think it's natural for the letter-writer to be freaked out and to think that indulging in the fantasy indicates a wish to indulge in the reality.
Stick with Dan's advice and take the discovery at face value - your father is turned on by incest porn. This does not mean that he is turned on by you or would be interested in actual incest.
To everyone else who is accusing DAD of being out of line for her reaction (cutting off contact, spreading the word about her dad's kink), calm down and cut her some slack. Incest porn is the kind of thing no one talks about or imagines anyone liking. After all, real incest is freaking illegal and often warrants sex offender status. DAD isn't thinking of outing her dad just because he likes porn. She is freaking out because she is afraid her dad is only one step away from being a sex offender, potentially with HER as the victim. But again, unless this is one of many signs that her father actually fantasizes about her, she should just leave it as him having the unusual kink.
For me, the bottom line is that the creepy situation of finding your parent's porn stash was made worse by the nature of the kinks. Outing his kinks to everyone would be out of line, but when the kind of porn they like would warrant sex offender registry if done in real life, we need to cut her some slack for freaking out.
Also the 30 yo guy really needs to get some therapy!
Incest porn is super common, and very enjoyable by lots of older guys. It is a fantasy of many older guys to have sex with younger women. Most incest porn just capitalizes on this basic theme. We are all well aware of the fact that the actors in the porn are not actual fathers/daughters. It just adds a little taboo tease to the otherwise common older guy/younger woman meme.
You should NOT leap to the assumption that your dad actually wants to have actual sex with his actual children. At least, not based solely on the evidence of internet porn. If he's doing other creepy behaviors too, then that's a whole different story.
Also, stay off your father's computer.
Then tell him that's the last gift he can expect to receive from you, ever.
1. I have a major incest fetish and read incest sex stories all the time.
2. The thought of actual incest with my dad really makes me ill.
3. Go figure.
4. Let it go and stop snooping on Dad's computer.
But - don't out him, if there's nothing more icky than him viewing porn while you're in the house. It's his life, his ways, nothing to see there. And don't cut all ties to him. You'll be pretty busy soon, you'll have time to reflect on things. Meeting him from times to times, in safe places, will let you check whether really he's considering you as a prey or not, while staying safe.
Hopefully he's really a decent guy and you'll end up realizing that everything is OK, and he won't think of it as anything else than an urge to leave the nest that was just a phase in your life.
But if you were to subsequently discover that he's really contemplating incest (because he tries to hold you too tight, compliments you too much on your body, looks aroused when he meets you, insists on meeting you in places without witnesses, gives you expensive gifts that you have to come and fetch alone at his place, etc.) then it will be time to out him as suspicious to your close circle - and to sever the ties.
From an incest survivor.
Realizing now, twenty years later, this is probably not the case. But since my Dad NEVER actually DID anything even slightly creepy towards me, I can let it go. What the hell, I have weird and creepy fantasies, too, and I know I would be horrified if any of them became reality (actual alien abduction, not as sexy as fantasy alien abduction).
Try to put it out of your head.
If the only times the father watches corresponds to her visits then maybe she should limit her visits to when she isn't alone with him. Having been stalked by my uncle, I wouldn't tempt fate otherwise, especially if the father drinks to excess.
Ain't that the truth!
@80- but, as cockyballsup says @68, maybe he looks at porn when his kid is there because that's when his girlfriend isn't there. In the absence of dad actually acting inappropriately toward DAD, I say there's no need to panic about porn.
I would randomly turn off the power to his room and lock the breaker box, if your wife consented. I would also consider taking him to therapy because his actions require a huge amount of pent up hostility. In the mean time use a secure filesystem, separate users, and the secure erase feature that should be a part of every modern OS. You should also check for trojans or applications that could spy on your computer use, and then lock out your computer with a password every time you physically leave the computer. A physically isolated and locked situation might be a good idea as well. You might also wish to consider locking down your credit cards when they aren't on you as well.
You missed something very obvious:
*How long have they waited after the first time they had sex to repeat?*
The wound/cut/abrasion created by breakage of the hymen can take a few days to heal completely - just like any other wound/cut/abrasion.
If they're going at it every day like horny 15 year olds, she may be reinjuring her already-broken hymen each time they have sex.
They should just take a week off and see what happens before worrying about anything else.
But you have to wonder how much a guy even cares about that story at all. In the videos it is an older guy having sex with a young woman. If she is sexy, a guy will watch that in spite of the title and in spite of the plot. I mean, most guys that watch porn skip the story and go right for the sex.
Could be that the dad just likes watching old dudes (like him) fucking younger women.
Frankly I've watched those videos myself not because I have any fantasies about incest at all, but because if there is a hot girl in the video, I will watch it, skipping the beginning.
What if her DAD is masturbating while thinking of her specifically? Visualizing her face, her body, etc? Watching his incest porn and masturbating while she's staying there because it's hot for him?
I'll answer - then that would be gross and not cool and she has every right to ask him and decide what she thinks is going on and if she wants to exile him or not.
For that matter, what good will it do? What can he possibly say about what goes on inside his own head that she will believe? None of it is verifiable in any way. How can she be sure, absolutely sure, that he isn't secretly fantasizing about her, even after he denies it?
There is a very good chance that all he was doing was looking at some random porn, and didn't give a shit about the supposed plot of the film. Unless there was some actual outward inappropriate behavior, she needs to give him the benefit of the doubt. (Problem is, chances are extremely good that starting today she will start interpreting everything he says and does in the worst possible light.)
For her to go charging in and demanding an explanation of exactly what he was thinking and feeling while watching it would be orders of magnitude more awkward.
If she absolutely can't let this go, and just has to go interrogate him -- I have a very strong suspicion she won't, and will -- she can do that, but he will be perfectly within his own rights to be pissed at her invasion of privacy and her overreaction, to tell her that children are not supposed to involve themselves in their parents' sex lives, to back the fuck off, and to stay the hell off his computer if she can't act like a grownup.
Either that or he should password protect his account (he should have done that in the first place), and give her an account of her own. Probably better install parental controls on it, though.
@88: I suspect a lot of parents probably do masturbate about their kids: so what? As long as they don't tell their kids or abuse them, and it's all in their head, what's wrong with that?
A more interesting question is whether and under what circumstances it's ok to ask your adult kid/parent/relative for sex. Theoretically, an adult asking another adult if they're interested should be ok, but it's complicated when it's family.
When it isn't there?
Do you have psychic abilities that myself and Dan lack? He was the one who acknowledged in the first place that it was a possibility.
He said: I'm operating under an assumption: again, that your father has never done anything that made you feel unsafe. If your discovery had led you to connect a bunch of deeply creepy dots, DAD, that's surely something you would've mentioned in your letter.
An assumption. Not a certainty. I personally think the basis for the assumption "you would have explicitly said it" isn't the best one.
Maybe her feelings of disgust were valid. I'm willing to admit they weren't, but I don't understand the eagerness to dismiss that they could have been.
I'm also curious as to where you get "ridiculously common" from. I think you tend to think that certain things are more common than they actually are based on your personal experience.
But if you have any sort of stat I'd love to hear it for sure.
What would lead you to suspect that?
Based on what we know (DAD saw incest porn in the father's browser history) DAD's feelings of disgust were not valid. We have to go based on what we know, and the question asked about the reaction to the porn, not other things.
I think incest is a common fantasy based on what shows up in, for instance, erotic stories: check out asstr or storiesonline and look at how many stories have the incest code. Given the taboo nature of the kink, I doubt there exist accurate statistics on what percentage of people have a kink for incest fantasies or stories, though I'd love to see some. It's a pretty standard kink though, and shows up on lists of turn-ons. Do you think it's very rare?
@94: Again, hard to know for sure, but people often find youth attractive, the taboo nature of it makes it appealing, and people's kids are around them a lot. When kids start going through puberty, suddenly parents realize they're sexual beings in their own right and they have to deal with that. They see their kids in a new way, so it doesn't seem surprising that a lot of parents would think about their kids being sexual and get turned on.
When you have a kid, job #1, before pleasuring yourself, is to protect the kid. If the kid is in your home, and there's even the remotest chance the kid will find you perving on incest porn, DON'T LOOK AT INCEST PORN AT HOME. Because the kid's mental health and relationship with you are both more important than your desire to jack off to Daddy's Little Princess.
As for what the girl should do? Take a vacay from a dad who's irresponsible and selfish enough to look at that shit while she's in the house. Maybe now she's got some insight, though, into why her parents are divorced. Not the kink: the selfishness and irresponsibility.
I'm seriously disliking Dan as a spouse and parent. Guy more or less bullies his boyfriend into accepting an open relationship, and then puts kink ahead of a kid's wellbeing. I think he's a selfish twat, really.
I don't talk about it (let alone act on it), just like I didn't talk about the pleasure that came with nursing my babies, and how that sometimes felt sexual. But I like how Slog can be a place to acknowledge that sex is often on our minds, and sexual thoughts do seep into aspects of life where society says they don't belong (the classroom, the workplace, parent/child relationships).
The "kid" is 22 fuckin years old. She is NOT a child and odds are, she probably does a whole lot of things that are in those videos.
This is WAY different from him using the computer in the rec room that an 8 year old uses to do his homework.
She's 22 and a temporary visitor while she prepares to move away.
So, I told him I couldn't do it anymore and I told him why, I also told him that he needed to stop being so afraid of what everyone else would think about him, as far as being out, including family and friends, that his family would still love him and any friends worth anything would still want to be friends. But, I never got a response from him, after calls and emails. I hope NEN gets some counseling from a good fair professional, and I also hope the same for the guy I dated, because if he got his shit together, I would love to give it another try.
@105 I've experienced the same. Usually it's because they want to 'correct' or 'fix' you/your outlook. The generic ending to idealogical/moral arguements with my grandmother: "Oh, trust me. Someday you'll be older and see that I knew what I was talking about. Then you'll change."
Que internal screaming.