Columns Nov 30, 2011 at 4:00 am

Busted

Comments

105
@103

Some women enjoy sex.
106
@101
Just because someone doesn't have a problem having fun in bed doesn't mean that they don't have any problems.

There's actually a number of bad things that can happen to a person that have nothing to do with sex! Hard to believe, I know.
107
@105 - I enjoy sex.

When I'm not pressured into it, and a willing participant. Again, I'm not a living sex toy, and I resent it when men feel entitled to my body.
108
Golly, my wife and I have been together for over 20 years, are nearly 60, and we are probably DOWN to 4 times a week. That really doesn't seem like much to me.
109
"Lesbian woman" is, in fact, a redundant phrase.

There are biologically male individuals who identify as lesbians, but they also identify as women. (If they didn't identify as women, there would be no reason for them to call themselves lesbians.)

They might refer to themselves as "lesbian-identified males," like Lisa from The L Word, but the term "male" in that expression refers to one's physical gender, not one's identity. People who call themselves LIMs still consider themselves to be women, when it comes to who they are deep down.
110
@27 - don't scare her even more. You are a LOT more likely to have tears with anal sex than vaginal. And you can let the vaginal ones heal, if they ever happen which is pretty damn unlikely unless you are on some seriously poorly planned adventures (or a douchebag of a guy). But you kinda have to use your ass and it doesn't just bleed, the pain is astonishing...
@62 - really?
@99 - you can stretch the thing out before you break it (takes a lot of repetition I think, but isn't that what fingers are for?). If you don't put anything huge in there, you won't bleed and it won't hurt. Depends on how you're built I guess.
To the lady with the hymen fears - I assume you are afraid of being hurt because you've tried to put stuff up there and it hurt. You may have an unusually thick or wide hymen. Next time you go to the gyno, have her scope it out, and see if she can cut it for you. Might be a twinge, maybe she'll give you some of the good pills for that, and it'll bleed a bit, but you'll be able to use the thing for a change and it's quite fun. Really they should offer this service to everyone as a convenience. Vaginas are lot more robust than an asshole for sure, and it hurts a lot more for most people to be anally penetrated for the first time than vaginally. If you haven't had anything inside you, even a tampon, at all due to a phobia , start with fingers (fingers should NOT hurt - if they do, ask the gyno), and see how much you can take/want. Unless someone is going at you like a jackhammer, they aren't going to tear your hymen by accident, assuming you even have one (some women don't). The thing isn't like tissue paper. Mine didn't break until I had a very sizable dick in there (I was wondering what was slowing him down, then, oh right! Well shit, didn't think I even had one. Didn't hurt. Bled some but stopped fast.). No big deal. Don't let your crazy sister, religious mom, or batshit sex ed teacher from middle school mess you up on this. It's fun to play with. At least give it a try. Don't be tense, have a couple of orgasms first, relax your muscles (if you have pain it might not be your hymen, it might be vaginismus, totally different issue, wiki it (although I think people who have this are generally not able to do anal), ask a gyno, but a single finger should not cause any problems even if you are super tense), and work your way up. Mostly, like with anal, having something inside you will make you cum harder than just clit alone. And it feels good. Like with anal. If anything, you might be surprised at the lack of sensation compared with anal, but it's nice to have the option, there's no prep, it's a fun thing to play with, can take a lot more hard use, and also don't listen to the stories - it's something people put a lot of emotional freight on and enjoy telling horror stories about, like childbirth or having to wait in line at the DMV. It's unusual to have much pain, if you do, ask a gyno. You obviously do not have to do any of this, but I assume you are asking because you are interested in getting over it. So try it out and have fun!
And use whatever words you want. They are your words. If they insist on introducing you to others as their friend the lesbian, just say "I prefer clitsucker" and see how long it takes your friends to learn. And if they bitch? Well, that's bitchy. Let them know it.

111
@94: While I'm similar to you in that I never cut out the sex unless I'm physically ill, I still agree that this poor girl is being treated like a sex toy. Vaginal intercourse four times a week, plus blow jobs, plus hand jobs, plus nakedness for visual stimulation, and then when she tells him that she's not in the mood or she has something that she actually has to do and then he says "but you NEVER want to have sex!" when they're doing it at least every other day? I find that unreasonable. Also, if my boyfriend acted like that, I'd start to wonder if he really cares about doing anything with me OTHER than fuck, especially since she described him as "immediately horny" "whenever we sit down together". I would personally begin to wonder whether he really cared about the other aspects of my being, you know? And again, I say this as a girl with a twice or more a day PIV habit. I would resent a guy who gets horny just from looking at me and then gets bitchy when I don't want to fuck him every minute of every day. It's not that I think that desiring sex more than 4 times a week is unreasonable, but I do think it's unreasonable to bitch about it when she seems to be doing the best she can.

Also, for those of you who don't think that PIV is all that physically taxing- it's not for me most of the time, but if you're a tight girl with a guy with a big dick who likes to fuck hard, every day can be pretty wearing.
112
@111 plus, five minutes or forty-five of pounding? And balanced by how much pussy-licking (or g-spot play, or whatever her preference is)?
113
Yes!--#96. I know this sounds silly, but substitute the girlfriend with a cigarette or a crack pipe or a bottle of vodka. It sounds like this guy is using sex--and his brain chemistry--to moderate his feelings/emotions--and when he's unable to get his fix, he gets mean & resorts to manipulation. (In a more extreme form, this is called 'sexual rage disorder') I would suggest this young women stop blaming herself for being inadequate. There may be other indicators that this is more than just a hearty sexual appetite. Like, does his pursuit to 'get off' interfere with his job? Is it affecting his finances in any way? Has there been a reduction in his involvement in other outside activities he used to enjoy? It appears to already be affecting his primary relationship in a negative way.

114
Scrufff @53 - Yep; Thucydides in his history refers a few times to the "Lesbian army", which when I first read Th. as a freshman in college was cause for some adolescent jollies.
115
Yes!--#96. I know this sounds silly, but substitute the girlfriend with a cigarette or a crack pipe or a bottle of vodka. It sounds like this guy is using sex--and his brain chemistry--to moderate his feelings/emotions--and when he's unable to get his fix, he gets mean & resorts to manipulation. (In a more extreme form, this is called 'sexual rage disorder') I would suggest this young women stop blaming herself for being inadequate. There may be other indicators that this is more than just a hearty sexual appetite. Like, does his pursuit to 'get off' interfere with his job? Is it affecting his finances in any way? Has there been a reduction in his involvement in other outside activities he used to enjoy? It appears to already be affecting his primary relationship in a negative way.
116
I cannot believe the number of people who are ragging on my recent posts! What's up?? For those of you pissed about "4 times a week" issues, take some deep breaths, and go get laid, already! You'll feel better!

@77 mydriasis: I never said that 4 times a week was "running a marathon or anything" either! I'm not personally holding a gun to your head, ordering you to limit yourself to 4 times a week. Whenever and however you want it, go for it.

You can do what you want, and say and think what you're going to say and think, regardless of my expressed opinion. That's exactly what I'm doing, along with everyone else.
Peace.
117
Yes!--#96. I know this sounds silly, but substitute the girlfriend with a cigarette or a crack pipe or a bottle of vodka. It sounds like this guy is using sex--and his brain chemistry--to moderate his feelings/emotions--and when he's unable to get his fix, he gets mean & resorts to manipulation. (In a more extreme form, this is called 'sexual rage disorder') I would suggest this young women stop blaming herself for being inadequate. There may be other indicators that this is more than just a hearty sexual appetite. Like, does his pursuit to 'get off' interfere with his job? Is it affecting his finances in any way? Has there been a reduction in his involvement in other outside activities he used to enjoy? It appears to already be affecting his primary relationship in a negative way.
118
(First time poster--sorry for the multiple posts)
119
@77 re: post @67: Did you not bother to actually read post @67?
I suggest that you chill out, pour yourself a glass of wine, and re-read what I wrote. "Anyone wanting sex 24/7 is what I find unreasonable".
I, in this case, means Auntie Grizelda, and does not necessarily apply to you.

While you're at it, check out post @116, too.
120
@110: Both 89 and myself at 99 are relating serious pain and long heavy bleeding despite lots of warming up. e.g. Fingering, over a long time period (months), increasing number of fingers, plenty of foreplay before penetration, etc. Because, you know, that was our actual experience. That despite the stretching, the first time with a cock instead of a finger hurt a hell of a lot, and caused me to wear a maxipad for the next day and move carefully. And we want other women with intact hymens to know this is a possible outcome. Despite the new prevalence of 'if you do some stretching it'll be no big deal, you won't even notice!'
121
MBIIH should not reward her boyfriend for whining. He needs to grow up and learn how to ask for sex nicely. And he also needs to know that enough foreplay can do wonders for turning women on.
122
@auntie

Yeah I read it, I just took issue with your labeling of unreasonableness. Yes, you said it was 'what you consider' but if you're suprised at the way several people responded to your statements then maybe they came off in a certain way you didn't intend or realize.

About the marathon thing: it was a joke. You said it's understandable she would be "pooped" after 4 times a week. That's the same as "tired" isn't it? Like as if having sex every couple days is so exhausting she couldn't manage more.

I just don't get it, that's all.
And in regards to 107 it just seems to me that if someone doesn't want to have sex all the time, then why? Sounds to me like someone who doesn't enjoy sex. But again, that's just my opinion.

@111/Erica

"I would resent a guy who gets horny just from looking at me and then gets bitchy when I don't want to fuck him every minute of every day."

You would resent a guy who gets horny just from looking at you? Why? And to be fair, no guy is capable of having sex every minute of every day so the scenario isn't even really possible. The only guys who've gotten bitchy because I didn't want to fuck them were guys that I didn't want to fuck at all. So I don't know.

For me I do count PIV as sex and like I said, that other stuff generally doesn't impress me. I would probably be just as unsatisfied with or without those other things if I wasn't getting enough PIV. So to answer Erica's question (I know you weren't directly asking me but I'm in that boat and I'm curious to see where you're going with this) When I talk about sex I mean just straight PIV, no pussy licking ever. Ever. Duration's in between those two.

I'm a tiny-built girl who avoids well-endowed guys for that reason. Even sex with an average size guy can hurt but that's just part of sex.

People go to the gym and end up sore the next day all the time and they think it's acceptable. Of course I'm willing to tolerate some pain if it's for something that's actually fun.
123
LOL @ 34!!!

124
mydriasis @122, that's not me at 111, it's alguna_rubia. Personally, I like that my husband gets horny from looking at me doing the laundry, etc.
When you said my question, what do you mean?
125
@Mydriasis: But how do we know it is fun for her? We don't know what this 4x a week sex entails for her. Is she just laying there while he pounds away? Does he make any effort to actually get her off? Or does he require her to give pre-penetration head/hand jobs/whatever. Also, we're forgetting about something big...

What is HER sex-drive?

As you said, everyone is DIFFERENT. Perhaps she doesn't have as high as a libido as yours? This is neither a bad thing or a good thing. It's just a matter of DIFFERENCE. If you enjoy having sex a lot, good for you. But if doesn't enjoy it that often and she is already making an effort to accommodate his higher sex drive, then how can she not be doing enough? For all we know 1x a week may be her preference and she's just going along with it to please her "man". And you said it yourself: "Of course I'm willing to tolerate some pain if it's for something that's actually fun." Well, maybe its more hurt and less fun for her.

I understand you're upset because you enjoy sex more than 4x a week. I get it; no one likes to think that their desires are outright unreasonable. Perhaps a better way to word the phrase would be to say "Requiring PIV sex 4x a week +unlimited stripping/hand jobs/oral when it goes much further than your partner's sex drive is unreasonable"
126
If you meant my question @112 - that was trying to express the idea that MBIIH talked a lot about what she does for her boyfriend's sexual pleasure, but doesn't even mention what gets her off. I found that weird.
127
@125 exactly
128
To MBIIH,
Tell your boyfriend to read this. He has NO idea how good he has it. I am married, love my wife dearly, but only get any kind of action once every 4 weeks or so and this is when things are good. Dry spells could and have gone so far as 8-12 weeks with nothing. No hand jobs, no her naked letting me admire her, no oral, no intercourse!!!! He needs to get down on his knees and thank you profusely every single day...Seriously, you are a gift to this guy, he needs to appreciate it!
129
I thought I'd relate my own hymen story, to represent a place between the two extremes of "agony and blood" vs. "no big deal at all!"

At age 16, my hymen was still intact (I could actually see it if I bent way over and spread my labia). The thing about hymens, though, is that they have a hole in the middle - and this hole expands to let out menstrual blood. So during the heaviest days of my period, I was still able to use a tampon...but if I tried to use one a bit too early or too late in the cycle, it hurt like a bitch and I had to give up and switch to pads. There's no way I could've busted through there myself; I could tell it would hurt way too much.

And yet, by the time I was 17, my hymen had been broken or stretched; I don't remember a defining moment of "ARGH! My vagina!" but something must've happened because I now had a clear view up my vagina and was able to wear tampons at any time of month if I wanted. Maybe certain angles of pressure on a hymen are painful and other angles break it without any discomfort at all, I don't know for sure.

Shortly after that, I had sex for the first time. There was pain as he tried to enter, but I think it might have been from my vagina stretching to accommodate him rather than a hymen thing. The pain was nothing like the feeling I used to get when I used to try to put in a tampon a day too late. And then...I dunno if I managed to relax my muscles or my bf changed his angle of approach or what, but he slid all the way in pretty easily.

But weirdly enough there was blood afterward, even though I never felt the kind of sharp pain that I'd associate with tearing. Not a geyser or anything - just a dime-sized spot of red on the toilet paper after my post-sex pee.

And that's my story.

*bows*
130
As far as the term "lesbian" goes, I've always been puzzled by it because certainly the poet Sappho, who enjoyed the company of her fellow woman, was from the island of Lesbos; but the island is inhabited by men as well as women, and most of them are heterosexual (contrary to both the common use of "lesbian" and certain stereotypes of Greek men...)
131
Also, re: those who are baffled at the idea of penetration being exhausting for the person being penetrated - it's probably not that four-times-a-week girl is so sore that she can't have sex more often - if she's in good health he's not jackhammering her for hours each time, she'll probably have bounced back the next day.

But it's not abnormal for a woman to be a little sore for a few hours after sex, and, y'know...maybe some days she doesn't feel like being sore.

If four-times-a-week-girl's bf has a high sex drive, there's nothing wrong with that (just like there's nothing wrong with her wanting it less). It doesn't make him a bad person. But if he's that unhappy, he should find a girl who's more compatible with him in that respect.

However...I'm not so sure his sex drive is the real issue. I get a strong vibe that he's emotionally abusive and that sex is just the tool he's using to manipulate and guilt-trip his girlfriend.
132
I like having sex one or two times a day... but I also like eating and having a roof over my head and sometimes I am just too exhausted to do it even though I want to. However, even tho I like to have a lot of sex, more than 4 times a week, sure, if I say no and you act like a pouty bitch about it that is a sure fire way to make me not want to fuck you ever again as long as I live. I lived with a guy like Mr Hornypants for seven long years and by the end I was so turned off and dead I thought I was asexual, a dyke, or both. I wasn't, at all, but I was good and tired of being pestered. And it was NEVER enough. We'd fuck for two hours after bedtime and he'd wake me up in the morning wanting more and if I needed to get up and shower and prepare things for my day, he'd get all pissy "wow we had hot sex last night and now you're back to frigid bitch again, I should have known you weren't really changing." Yuck. THAT is what is unreasonable.
133
@122 mydriasis: Okay. Fair enough.
@124 EricaP: Your husband gets horny looking at you while you're doing laundry....Wow.
134
@131: I think you might have nailed the situation of MBIIH.
135
@132: Sorry. He doesn't seem like he was nice to you. But in all honesty I really sympathize with him. It's HARD to be turned down when you really want sex with someone you really care about. It's even harder to take it gracefully.

@52/56 (EricaP): Those are some truly scary statistics. Looks like 2-3x/week is above average.

As far as determining compatibility, I'm not sure pulling back and looking at how often your partner initiates is a good idea: some people's sexuality is more responsive and they might initiate less than they'd be responsive or willing to please. I'd suggest looking at masturbation frequency, for one thing: someone who masturbated every day when single is probably likely to have a higher baseline sex drive.

This is definitely something people should talk about before getting married: someone who thinks the frequency "might go down in a few years" may not be someone you should marry, even if you're happy now.
136
@74: I can't speak for the guy in the letter, but as someone who is a "bottomless sex pit," I wouldn't want my sex drive decreased, and if it lessened I'd feel like I lost an important part of myself. I don't see it as torture; I see it as having more capacity and appreciation for pleasure.

I don't actually think there are any tests or treatments for hypersexuality: it's just part of the normal spectrum of different sex drives.
137
@BlackRose, who wrote:
On an off topic note, can I ask you about what you said in another thread about the D/s thing where you had to earn a kiss from someone? I'm interested in how someone could do that while dealing with the social baggage around it: the whole idea that men shouldn't be submissive or that it's pathetic or unattractive to have to earn sex.


I don't know if you're still reading this (I was away for a while, so it took me a while to come back and read your question), but for what it's worth, here is my answer.

The point is that I have rather strong submissive tendencies, so regardless of the baggage you mention (or, in a sweetly perverse way, because of the baggage you mention), it arouses me to be in situations like that. From my persective, playing such a game is a pleasure: it's a win-win situation.

Now, for the women in question, this was at first a problem. Many women I slept with had a more 'sweet' reaction (you might want to call it 'typically/socially feminine') in which they wanted to make me happy, and followed normal behavioral patterns to that effect, including, for instance, lots of kissing. When I mentioned that I did have submissive desires, they were surprised. Often they had heard about such things, but in a context that still made it sound perverse, or evil (a frequent reaction: 'Oh no, poor darling! You must have had some bad/traumatic experience in childhood that made you have this twisted/perverted vision of love and sex and relationships! But I'll help you get better! Let's talk about it!'; or, somewhat less frequently: 'I don't like that! It's horrible! I'm not a sadist! Let's not even talk about it!').

It took some effort to explain to them that these were simply sexual games I liked to play -- things that made me feel sexy. In order to do that, I started with things that didn't seem 'bad', like the kissing game. I've observed that many girls were in such a situation, in which they were playfully 'bad', in a somewhat flirty way, with someone. This usually involves getting some guy to do something for them, like carrying their books, just by smiling and asking. (This doesn't mean they were 'bad girls'; it felt more like playing to them, and often also to the guy involved.) I tried to evoke such memories, and usually this got them to smile and laugh. Then I said I wanted to play this guy's role, and the kissing game ('you have to "earn" a kiss from me!') is a very easy framework for doing that -- it feels like a joke (the first times we did that, I was laughing, she was laughing, and we felt like we're pretending to be little kids), so that the D/s dynamics feels familiar, joking, 'cozy'.

After that, the idea of D/s felt a little less perverted or wrong, and it seemed to them I might not be a poor guy with a childhood trauma to work on. From then on other possibilities were open. :-)

(In all fairness, this didn't always work: many girls didn't like the D/s dynamics in any way, so we simply stopped after a while. I haven't been with that many women who actually enjoyed it; they're the exception rather than the rule in my experience. But the times when it worked usually started like that.)
138
@36 - well said. I'd add, too, that he's making her feel guilty for not doing something that, by the sounds of it, she'd find painful - which is to say, he's making her feel bad for something she can't help. Considering that every long-term relationship has its sexual ups and downs, this does not bode well for the future.

My advice, MBIIH? Yell at him. And maybe tell him that every time he uses words like 'never' or 'you don't want to', he doesn't get any sex of any kind for the rest of the day. GGG includes respecting someone's limits; your limits are generous and fair, and he needs to wake up and stop bullying you.
139
I was all ready to suggest that MBIIH should negotiate with her boyfriend that she'd try to accommodate his high sex drive if he'd do more to satisfy her. I was going to ask what he did for her in terms of foreplay or anything else she wanted. I was about to note how the letter doesn't say anything about her pleasure, and I was going to go on about that. Then I reread the letter.

She says that their sex life has always been awesome and that they both try to be GGG for each other. I'm chiding myself for the way I turned the letter around in my mind into one I could understand. The real thing is rather harder to deal with. The sex is great. He is GGG for her. He just wants sex more than she does and is childish about wants/demands. Hmmm. This one is a puzzle.
140
@136:

Sexually compulsive behavior is often treated with high doses of SSRIs. Up to a certain point, I agree with you that high libido should be regarded as heightened capacity for pleasure rather than a pathology, but virtually every appetite carries within it the seeds of tyranny. Which is to say, if someone is too preoccupied with sex to hold down a job or maintain a social life, or routinely makes extremely risky/costly decisions in the pursuit of sexual pleasure, then there might be a real problem.

For my own part, I don't think I have a freakishly high sex drive, but there are times when I kind of step back from myself and think "Hey! Close that porn site, get your hands out of your pants, and go do something productive!" or "Hey! Don't hook up with some stranger you found on Craigslist! You decided last time that you were never going to do that again!" About half of the time my better judgment carries the day, and the other half of the time my libido just barricades itself in the pilot's cabin and keeps right on flying. And I can live with that balance of power, but I'd be downright terrified if my better judgement always lost out to my libido.
141
@BlackRose, and others, on the topic of the "unreasonableness" of the boyfriend in question: I tend to agree with Crinoline@38 (and other similar ones after that). It's not that wanting sex 4x, 10x, or 50x a week is, in and of itself, bad or wrong; it's (a) that the likelihood of satisfaction decreases as one's need for sex goes beyond the average level (a simple statistical fact, just like having a rare kink means you have to look longer to find another interested partner), and (b) that this guy, in the way he places his demands, seems to be thinking only about himself and his needs; I don't see him giving space for his girlfriend to also defend her side in a negotiation.

In other words, I may be wrong -- we don't have the guy's side on the issue -- but from her letter it seems the boyfriend is a little passive-aggressive or manipulative in that he thinks about his own needs and doesn't seem willing to consider her side -- he asks for sex, complains when he doesn't get it, and doesn't seem to react to her discomfort in any way, not even by looking for a different girlfriend.

If this is the case, then I think he does, as Dan says, need to reassess his situation and allow his girlfriend to express her discomfort and take it seriously -- and then decide what to do. He does seem to be behaving a little like the proverbial spoiled child.
142
Actually, upon re-reading the letter, the LW does describe her sex life with the boyfriend as "awesome", and it doesn't seem that he's actually forcing or manipulating her -- it seems she is the one feeling guilty about not wanting sex as often as he wants, but apparently he isn't complaining. Hm, it seems I sorta stereotyped the situation when I wrote my last comment.

I suppose I would suggest that she express her feelings to him, and ask his opinion. They can together find some way to make him more satisfied -- anything from masturbation to opening the relationship -- together and consensually. I remember being in relationships with non-matching libidos -- me often being the one who wanted more, but a couple of times also the one who wanted less -- and usually it worked to talk about it. There's always the expectation that "my partner should be the solution of all my sexual desire" and it's often difficult to get around that; some people simply won't see unmatched libidos as a problem at all. But if there's a chance of solution, I think it does go through being sincere and discussing the problem without shame and without throwing guilt on each other ('it's all your fault, you want it too much / you never want it!');
143
What 111 said. It isn't whether 4x a week PIV is a lot or a little on any sort of objective scale, if such a thing were possible. It's that, what with 4x a week PIV, plus blowjobs, plus handjobs, plus dropping her clothes on request so he can wank, Boyfriend has a lot of gall calling that "never."

She ought to treat him to about three weeks of "This is what 'never' REALLY looks like," to give him some perspective.
144
Thanks Dan for your response to the girl with the boyfriend of bottomless appetite. Married 18+ years to someone similar, I can relate to @132. Since what I do is never enough, and extra effort just raises the bar (as in, why isn't it like this ALL the time)and results in fights. Inadequacy is the order of the day. Nice to hear the opposite.

A separate question is whether this is a relationship deal-breaker. This is the only area that my husband and I argue about, so maybe not. On the other hand, sometimes I think, I'm so tired of this fight, maybe one day I'll just be done. She should think about this, because it won't change.
145
@61/auntie grizelda: What Dan said that I objected to was the idea that the guy was lucky to have what he has now, and he shouldn't complain or want more.

You seem to be saying what I was saying, that they may be incompatible and should try to compromise, but break up if they can't. That part I agree with: it's the whole "you can't do much better" thing that seems fucked up to me. I think 100 was right about Dan not being experienced with vaginas: I wonder how often most people can have anal.
146
The BFIIH letter reminds me of that scene in Annie Hall. It's a split screen, we see Alvie and Annie in therapy. Their respective shrinks ask, "How often do you have sex?" They answer at the same time.

Annie: Constantly, like twice a week.
Alvie: Never, like twice a week.

Like many good jokes, it's based on a stereotype. My point is we're only seeing one side here. If she resents the pestering she may well exaggerate the number of times he requests sex to justify her resentment. Regardless, there's clearly some incompatibility here and that will only fester over time.
147
@139/142 - she does say the sex is "awesome," but she doesn't give any specifics that involve her sexual pleasure. She's only 20; maybe she has nothing to compare to. I would be happier with their sex life if she mentioned that she has three orgasms every time he has one, or that he's happy to hogtie her every night the way she likes, or that his cock hits her g-spot just right... or anything at all that showed that she has her own agency and pleasure in mind.
148
@142, plus, he is complaining: "he gets cranky when I have to say no."
149
I'd love to know what Mr. Balls' opinion on hookers was before going to see one, too.
150
@145 BlackRose: I agree with you there, too, actually. Nobody should have to settle for less than what they desire and /or need. I made the mistake of settling for less, and now I know better. I've been free of a bad relationship for 10 years now and on to bigger, better things.

By the way, while I know this is off the topic of MBIIH, Dan has mentioned in his book, Savage Love, that he HAS had vaginal intercourse with women, but that the experience wasn't enjoyable for him. The reason and situation: a gay man being pressured to have breeder sex so he'll appear straight. That doesn't sound like much fun.
I wouldn't want to be pressured into sleeping with other women to appear as if I'm a lesbian.
151
@88: BRAVO!!!!!!!
152
Further re @150: I'm not homophobic, just not a lesbian.
153
@ 141 anklosaur and @143 avast2006: Well said!

@132 wendykh: Holy shit---you're describing my ex to the "pouty bitch" teeth!! I fully agree: YUCK! After foolishly trying to make a silk purse out of a pig's butt, I finally left him after growing tired of being pestered and bullied, too. Drunken, forced upon sex is not good sex. My biggest mistake back then was believing that it couldn't get any better.
154
Okay, I'm done.
155
@150: Yeah, he has had sexual experiences with women a few times: I especially liked where he described a pussy as feeling like a lasagna noodle. But he hasn't (as far as I know) had relationships with women involving various frequencies of vaginal intercourse, and yeah, it probably wasn't much fun.
156
@137/ ankylosaur: That's really interesting and thanks for being willing to talk about it. Was it difficult for you to overcome the idea that there was something unattractive about you for not being in control of kissing, or the fear that you'd get rejected/laughed at/considered less than a man for not being dominant and in charge? (This is interesting to me cause I'm often worried I'm not dominant enough or enough of a leader.)
157
All I have to say is that GGG is a dyke that loves getting her ass hole filled......that is soooo fucking HOT!!!
158
Horny boyfriend, it's all about compromise, and it's time he did a little or you need to rethink your relationship. Do you really want to deal with this for much of your life? Constant sexual demands turn sex into a chore rather than a pleasure and a man who can't provide affection without trying to turn it into sex takes the pleasure of cuddling out of the relationship. Finally, the sulking and whining are signs of an immature person who views you as a vehicle for his satisfaction rather than a person in your own right. He's sulking and whining because he believes he has some RIGHT to sex from you, and the sex providing module refusing to function is like the toaster not working to him. This is more than a sexual problem; he's not respecting the fact that you're a person with your own rights and wants and needs. Quit worrying about satisfying this guy and think about finding a guy who wants to build a sexual relationship between the two of you, taking your needs into consideration as well.

159
Dan, about your answer to BALLS, this straight person says BRAVO! Perfect.
160
I'm not judging, but if I was with someone for 2 years and LIVED with him, I hope I'd be having sex more than 4 times a week! As it is I pretty much demand it 2-3 times per day from whatever partner I happen to be with. Most men can't keep up with me and I wonder if maybe my libido is just amazingly high for a woman, or if they are just freaked out by how much I want it? Who can tell, but I'd gladly take a super-horny man!!
161
I'm not judging, but if I was with someone for 2 years and LIVED with him, I hope I'd be having sex more than 4 times a week! As it is I pretty much demand it 2-3 times per day from whatever partner I happen to be with. Most men can't keep up with me and I wonder if maybe my libido is just amazingly high for a woman, or if they are just freaked out by how much I want it? Who can tell, but I'd gladly take a super-horny man!!
162
@147-148(EricaP), good points. Maybe she is indeed a little young and doesn't know how to impose herself in a way that is respectful of her boyfriend. When one is young, one is often afraid that whatever one has been able to find is 'the best they could ever have' and that keeping it is worth any sacrifice!...

She does say he's GGG for her. And it could be that she hasn't mentioned her pleasure because it is well taken care of and not really a problem. But still, she might be young and naive. Hard to say.
163
@161(Dirty_D), I guess the point is that a super-horny guy would be better off with you (at least sexually) than with a woman like MBIIH. But then, would you feel like her if you happened to end up in bed with a guy whose libido is even stronger than yours, to the point that even you would have a problem similar to MBIIH's? Maybe not very likely, but still, if it did happen, what would you do?
164
@156(BlackRose), no problemo! You seem like a good person, and if my personal experience, limited though it may be, has some interest to you, so much the better.

I don't think I ever felt like 'not being in control of kissing' was ever related to any insecurities I had (and indeed I did, and do, have them; my physical type -- the thin, non-muscular, bespectacled nerd with the thick books -- is not exactly every teenage girl's dream of a Prince Charming), because, while playing this game, it just felt so damn arounsing that I didn't really "think" that I wasn't in "control".

It's a little bit as if you asked, 'don't you ever feel embarrassed by the fact that you're naked when you're having sex? I mean, wouldn't you be embarrassed if you were naked at work, in front of your colleagues? So why shouldn't you be embarrassed by being naked while having sex?'

I suppose the answer is that the context is so different -- being naked in a sexy context is arousing, being naked in a non-sexy context often is embarrassing and even humiliating (in the bad sense of the word). If need be, think of those lines of naked people being examined by Nazi doctors in Auschwitz. Isn't that nakedness the very opposite of anything arousing?

Likewise, 'not being in control of kissing' as part of a sex game just feels so damn arousing, it's such a pleasant experience, that it's even difficult to think of it as similar to the experience of actually not being in control -- as when you depend on your boss' (or graduate advisor's) permission to go ahead with some specific project, and suddenly you feel s/he's the one who really decides what you will or won't be doing in your work. That feels not at all arousing, totally unlike the kissing game.

I suppose I never connected the kissing game to any non-sexy experience of rejection because the whole background/context is so different. Like every man, I have been rejected by women; we all unpleasant this is. But when I'm playing the kissing game with a girlfriend and everything is going well ('please, please, may I kiss you?' - 'No! you may NOT!'), then I'm with someone who obviously wants to please me, someone to whom I actually had to explain how to play the game, someone who is looking at me and actually enjoying the pleasure she sees in my eyes. To me, it's simply impossible to see/feel this situation as I'd feel a situation of real rejection ('Nope, not interested in a date with you.')

Now, it's always possible that the girl doesn't enjoy the situation (this did happen, alas, more often than I wanted). Then her displeasure with playing this role would break the bond. Now, this displeasure would actually make me feel insecure -- we're not forming a bond, this is not working, the date isn't going well. Curiously, in those moments the woman in question would actually be more polite and respectful -- and I would feel much worse and much more insecure despite the respect they were showing me, because this respect actually meant that we didn't click. It would feel like the politeness that strangers share, a politeness that basically means 'I don't really want to be intimate with you'.

I hope this answers your question. :-)
165
To GGG- If you are just exploring your own body with fingers and toys, then there shouldn't be any pain and not likely any bleeding. The hymen breaking (if it even happens) isn't a sudden thing that happens as soon as you put something in your vagina for the first time. It requires some force and intent, so just be gentle with yourself and you should be fine. Fingers should not hurt at all, and for most women neither should tampons. So start with a finger, and then 2, and eventually you can try a small toy and just keep working your way up. If you ever have any pain, just stop, back off, use more lube, and go more slowly. Using this approach will just stretch the hymen out and it may never noticeably break at all. When you started with anal play, I'm assuming you started exploring with something small and worked your way up slowly, right? Pushing anything much larger than a finger into a virgin asshole can be very painful and cause bleeding, just like the vagina, so people usually go slowly with this. I think that's the problem with a lot of painful and bloody first time sex experiences-an unexersized, unstretched out hole that's never had anything bigger than a tampon in it is suddenly having a full sized cock pushed into it. That's pretty painful. That would cause pain and tearing in any orifice. Most women start having sex before they've adequately explored their own bodies, and because of this we still have this myth that first time sex is almost always accompanied with pain and bleeding and a breaking hymen. I think that a lot of the pain and some of the bleeding has more to do with the vagina being too quickly stretched beyond it's comfort zone than from just the hymen tearing.

My own experience: I was a late bloomer to the whole sex and dating thing. I was extremely shy and insecure, so I couldn't approach guys I was interested in, and it didn't help that as a straight girl I ended up going to an all women's college. I am also butch and identified as transgendered, which also made things more complicated in the realm of trying to date men. Anyway, I was in my mid 20's before I lost my virginity in the traditional sense, so I had a lot of time to gain experience with my own body. I started exploring myself with my fingers in my pre-teen years and never had any pain at all with this. By the time I was in my late teens, I decided I wanted to know what something bigger felt like in there, but I was also afraid of breaking my hymen. I started exploring with things I could find around the house of gradually increasing size. I remember that I had this plastic travel toothbrush holder that I used as a dildo (it was the perfect shape). When I first tried using it, I started feeling a stretching-type pain when I tried inserting it, and it was maybe only half the diameter of an average penis, maybe a little more. I just took it really slow, stopped when it hurt at all, then tried again and was able to go a little farther. Once it went all the way in, it felt AWESOME and was my favorite "dildo". I can't imagine going straight from fingers only to trying to force something twice the diameter of that toothbrush holder in like most girls do when they lose their virginity. OUCH. Anyway, once I was in college, I was able to get real "toys" of varying sizes, and when I wanted to try a larger size, I did it gently. I never had anything beyond slight pain (which I was in control of, which is important), and no bleeding. My first boyfriend had a fairly large penis, and I experienced no pain or discomfort the first time we had sex. We just put it in slowly and it was fine. Occasionally, over the years, I would have a teeny-tiny bit of bleeding (like, a little pink on the tissue with my after-sex pee). It could have been that my hymen tore a tiny bit, since it was probably still there and just stretched out. If I haven't had sex in awhile, I'll still sometimes feel a bit of that stretching pain during the initial penetration (I have a friend who's said that that same thing happens to her, and she did have the painful hymen-breaking "first-time", so I don't think this is due to the potential intactness of my hymen).

So anyway, I guess my point is, you won't experience any pain that you aren't completely in control of. So just take it slow, use lube, and have fun with the exploration.
166
@18, one solution, he can send her my way. 4 times a week sounds fiiiiiiiiiiiine by me :)
167
A lot of folks have hit the high points--it's not about how much sex they're having, where it falls on some frequency spectrum, whether he's oversexed. They do fall within the typical range, for whatever that's worth. The problem is his attitude. He whines, he gets cranky. That's unattractive behavior. While tempting to use avast's advice, probably ankylosaur's is the more effective method. Sit down with him and tell him. Have one of those "I feel . . ." conversations.

If the frequency of sex really is a deal-breaker for him, then you should know that as soon as possible. If his behavior about it doesn't improve, you may find out if that's a deal-breaker for you.
168
@160 Dirty D: More power to ya!!
169
GGG: your hymen might already be broken without you even knowing it. For me it happened gradually, on a few occasions, and there was never any one, sudden, painful, bloody event like the myths would have us believe. If you're in control of what's happening through self-penetration, I think odds are high you'll be much more comfortable with the experience and everything will be fine.

36/Crinoline, 167/Clashfan and others, you are totally correct. He's being a brat about this, rather than trying to treat her fairly and work out a compromise that's good for both of them, and that's the real problem. Chances are that he'll be like this on other issues, too, not just the frequency of sex issue.

170
I listening to your podcast about how straight couples (Kardashin) use and abuse marriage rights and no one has a problem with that. well any way you know what you said, I'm a straight female and I just wan to say I loved what you said! I'm going to use your argument in future convos I hope you don't mind :-)
171
@167 You're absolutely right in calling that "unattractive behavior". I tend to be the one with the higher libido in relationships, and, as such, realize that I can't always get what I want. But, if there was a scenario where I was with someone who wanted sex more often than I do, and they whined about it, I think I'd end up wanting LESS sex.

And for the people talking about the frequency of initiation: I can't say that I regularly initiate, even though sometimes I'd like to. Part of that is residual shyness, part the slight submissive tendency I have, and in part BECAUSE I have the higher libido and don't want to be turned down. My bf pretty much knows that if he initiates, I'm already game. Though I do give him a lot of credit for helping me become more assertive in bed, there are still things I'm not quite comfortable with.
172
Do you think BALLS is legit? Or maybe written by a kid at Reed trying to get Dan more credence in the red states?
173
I was a walking hardon in my teens and 20s. I never found a woman whose libido matched mine. Then somewhere along the line things reversed. I'm nearly 40 now and it seems most of the women I date want to fuck all the time. No doubt there's an evolutionary function at work, but it's more fun to see it as the male libido exacting revenge on the female libido for all those years of jerking off. Alas, cruel life! :)
174
@146

Bingo.

@126

Isn't that implying that PIV isn't pleasurable for her? I guess what I'm trying to say is - I know Dan and all of you guys are saying that all that other stuff counts as sex. And it may well count as sex for her - but why even bother if it's not sex for him? Especially if she's seeing it as a chore. If I were in a situation (god fucking forbid) where I was with a guy who offered say oral because he wasn't up for sex all the time? I'd tell him to get out and not come back. I'm not saying oral isn't sex, but I don't enjoy it, it doesn't really get me off and it's deeply deeply unsatisfying. Maybe a guy (or girl) in their 20s doesn't want a sex life which is mainly comprised of consolation prizes.

I don't think someone at any age wants that, but especially someone who is at the stage in their life where they presumably have the most access to sexual partners.

I mean, it's like saying "hey I will only have sex with you x times per week BUT I will play golf with you as much as you want. What you're sexually unsatisfied?? But look at all the golf!!"
175
@avast

"What 111 said. It isn't whether 4x a week PIV is a lot or a little on any sort of objective scale, if such a thing were possible. It's that, what with 4x a week PIV, plus blowjobs, plus handjobs, plus dropping her clothes on request so he can wank, Boyfriend has a lot of gall calling that "never.""

See above. If I were him I'd feel the same.

"She ought to treat him to about three weeks of "This is what 'never' REALLY looks like," to give him some perspective"

That's disgusting.
176
@174 We're definitely going on the assumption that the boyfriend likes all those "consolation prizes". For someone like you, who pretty much just wants sex, none of the additional "fluff" those things wouldn't count as sex. For someone who does enjoy those things, there would be a different perspective.
I know I like PIV more than any other activity most of the time, but, if my bf gets me off over a dozen times, I'm certainly not of the opinion that it didn't count because his penis wasn't in me.
Conversely, on occasion, he'd prefer a bj to sex. And he's also completely satisfied with what we do even if he DOESN'T get off, so long as I do(unfortunately, a med he's on makes it difficult and sometimes seemingly impossible to get off).
177
@Kate
I'm sure he likes them - you'd be hard pressed to find a guy who doesn't like head. But just like the women here saying "I like sex but not when I'm being pressured", he might like head but not when it's being offered as a replacement for what he actually wants.

Isn't that likely the case?
178
mydriasis, I think you're probably right about what he wants (lots of PIV), and why he's not content with what she's offering.

Re your question @174, We don't just know what acts she loves, because she doesn't say. We hear several times about him getting off (through PIV, hand jobs, blow jobs, masturbation), but not once about her getting off. I just wish she were here to tell us more about what she enjoys. It might help us figure out what specific pleasure she's getting out of the relationship, that might motivate her to satisfy his desire for frequency.
179
Actually, I know a few guys who not only don't like head, but will get upset if someone tries to convince them to let them try. Not the point, though.

I definitely agree that could be the case. I'm certainly not arguing the point with you. I do believe that for some people it really is that big of a deal, others prefer to focus on different aspects.

For some people, nothing but PIV is perfect. I'm sort of in the same boat with you about receiving oral, I'd much rather have other things (difference is, I like it occasionally if it's been awhile). I know for me, personally, if PIV was all we did, I'd feel cheated in that respect, others feel cheated if they only get the other stuff. Takes all kinds, I guess.
180
@175: You are entitled to your own preferences about what constitutes sex and what doesn't. That does not invalidate the fact that whatever the specific acts that she performs may be, she is working her ass off for him, and he is mostly being a whiny ass in response.

If in fact all those other things don't count as sex to him -- we have not actually established that, but we can explore it as a hypothetical -- the best thing would be if they had a polite conversation where he might express his preferences, at which point she would be off the hook for all this stuff that he doesn't even enjoy. If, on the other hand, he does enjoy it, just not as much as PIV, he has no business characterizing that as "never." She is putting a lot of time and effort into this. Blowjobs don't exactly let you turn them on and walk away, like a dishwasher.

As far as my response being "disgusting" that is also an opinion you are entitled to. Obviously a polite conversation would be preferable, and if it worked there would be no reason to go there. But it's not like he has been being polite or appreciative himself leading up to that point. Sometimes a proverbial smack upside the head with a fish is not only necessary but richly deserved.

To be clear, I am not advocating 3 weeks of abstinence to teach him to be shut up and be content with 4X a week. I suggest it as a lesson in the difference between "never" and "daily or better with a lot of variety." Nor would I expect it to go on beyond where he got a clue and apologized profusely for being a dick. I just threw 3 weeks out there as a ballpark number after which pretty much anybody would feel sufficiently deprived that the clue stick finally fell and hit them. In his case I doubt it would take more than about 3 days.
181
Why does everyone blame the girl on this one, like it's her fault that he isn't completely satisfied. And why does it not matter what she wants? As Erica P. pointed out, it really never discusses what she's getting, just him. She is trying the best she can it sounds like and he is being an ungrateful jerk about it. That's the issue. What about compromise for her? What about her as a person? There is more to a relationship than sex. If everytime they sit together, he gets horny and demands sex, it sounds like he is using her for more frequent sex. Complaining doesn't help, when she tries her best.

They should break up, maybe because their libidos don't match, but mostly because he is unappreciative. They break up, and we'll see how long it takes him to get laid again. What, is he going to masturbate 10 times a day? What is he like when he's not getting off from a girl all the time? Everybody has dry spells. I'm just saying, if he really cared about her, he would consider her point of view.
182
@180: "she is working her ass off for him, and he is mostly being a whiny ass in response."

Well, she perceives herself as working her ass off for him, and she perceives him as being a whiny ass in response. I'd take it more seriously if we had both sides of the story here.
183
@182 We very rarely get both sides of the story, your point is moot. We have to go off of what we have and it sounds very much like he is being an ass.
184
I'm curious what kink Mrs BALLS found she enjoyed!
185
@18

Jesus Christ on a jumping stick! 4 times a week of PiV is "too much," and her boyfriend should be "un-fucking-believably lucky to get that much sex in any other relationship" because she lets him fap?

This reads like something off of 4chan. Check your ovaries/balls, and your dignity at the desk please.

I've personally never had a complaint from partners in relationships who were on the receiving end multiple times each evening and morning 7 days a week. We were, thankfully, very compatible. Really enjoying a lot of sex (a lot) is not something everyone can handle, and this girl appears simply unable to match her partner's sexual drive--that is HER own fucking problem.

Your attempt to place her situation in a weird "OMG UR BOYFRIEND TUCH vaginanana HE'S SO LUCKY" perspective is ridiculous, and insulting to men who actually respect and really enjoy pleasing their girlfriend/wife without a single thought of bullshit middle-school sexual politic vagina commodity futures market tug-o-wars.

This is clearly a sexual mis-match, and it's up to them both to decide whether it's worth the trouble to stay together despite the mis-match.
186
@185:

Jesus Christ on a jumping stick! 4 times a week of PiV is "too much," and her boyfriend should be "un-fucking-believably lucky to get that much sex in any other relationship" because she lets him fap?


Holy deliberate misreadings, Batman! First off, nowhere in any of my comments do I say that vaginal intercourse four times a week is "too much." (To be clear, I definitely don't think it's too much; I just think that it's pretty darn respectable, if not exactly Guinness-worthy.) Also, according to MBIIH's letter, she does a lot more than "let him fap"; she gives him blowjobs and handjobs whenever he asks.

My point, which you appear to have missed, is simple: MBIIH's boyfriend is getting significantly more sex than the average man in a long-term heterosexual relationship. Other commenters have stated, with some justification, that where MBIIH's boyfriend stands relative to the overall male population has little bearing on his own degree of satisfaction. If he's getting more sex than most men and he's still horny, telling him that he's getting more sex than most men isn't going to make him any less horny.

To which I say: fair enough. But I maintain that, like all people who have discovered that their reality falls short of their ideal, MBIIH's boyfriend would be wise to consider whether he's realistically likely to do any better before he throws down his hand and asks for a redeal. Yes, I understand that this is an imperfect metaphor; finding a compatible partner is not a purely aleatory proposition (although I suspect there's a stronger element of chance involved than most people realize). And judging from all the people who have left comments saying that they routinely have awesome sex several times a day, maybe I'm underestimating the odds of MBIIH's boyfriend finding a partner whose sex drive matches his. To return to the poker metaphor, maybe he's only asking for two pairs instead of a full house. With this in mind, I will amend my original statement from "he would be un-fucking-believably lucky to get that much sex in any other relationship" to "he would be lucky to get that much sex in most other relationships." Better?

I've personally never had a complaint from partners in relationships who were on the receiving end multiple times each evening and morning 7 days a week. We were, thankfully, very compatible. Really enjoying a lot of sex (a lot) is not something everyone can handle, and this girl appears simply unable to match her partner's sexual drive--that is HER own fucking problem.


Why is it "HER own fucking problem"? We could just as easily say it's the boyfriend who's failing to match her sex drive -- the problem is simply one of excess rather than deficit. At the risk of reading too much into a single sentence, I get the feeling that you're hostile toward MBIIH for failing in her obvious female duty to be "on the receiving end multiple times each evening and morning 7 days a week" without complaining. And, by extension, you're hostile towards me, because I dared to take her part.

Your attempt to place her situation in a weird "OMG UR BOYFRIEND TUCH vaginanana HE'S SO LUCKY" perspective is ridiculous, and insulting to men who actually respect and really enjoy pleasing their girlfriend/wife without a single thought of bullshit middle-school sexual politic vagina commodity futures market tug-o-wars.


Your attempt to reduce my actual reading of her situation to "OMG UR BOYFRIEND TUCH vaginanana HE'S SO LUCKY" is equally ridiculous. As for your similarly ridiculous claim that my comment @18 is somehow "insulting" . . . well, as I suggested above, I suspect what you're actually outraged by is my (and MBIIH's, and Dan's) fundamental assumption that pussy isn't some kind of pleasure-dispensing ATM, open 24/7/365 - just stick your card in the slot and it'll give you whatever you want! It'll even say "thank you" afterwards!

On a less vitriolic note, you may "respect and really enjoy pleasing" your wife/girlfriend, but there's little indication from MBIIH's letter that her boyfriend does the same. (Obviously, we're only getting her side of the story, so cum grano salo and all that.) Yeah, she says that he's GGG and they have an awesome sex life, but it sounds like he's not particularly concerned with her pleasure when he pressures her for sex.

This is clearly a sexual mis-match, and it's up to them both to decide whether it's worth the trouble to stay together despite the mis-match.


Actually, I agree with you -- just with the proviso that the odds are probably better than even that if he decides to jump ship, he'll find himself just as mismatched, if not more so, in the next relationship. If suggesting that MBIIH's boyfriend should weigh the relationship he has not only against what he wants, but also against what he's likely to get somehow constitutes "bullshit middle-school sexual politic vagina commodity futures market tug-o-war," then guilty as charged.
187
I agree: @111 for the WIN!!!
188
No, 185 it is not "her problem" it's "their problem" if they're a couple. Like most problems, it needs to be solved by meeting in the middle.

Multiple partners in relationships...can't keep one together, huh? Not a big surprise.

As for "matching" what in the world are you talking about? People are individuals. They don't "match" all the time. It is not any one partner's responsibility to "match" the other; they have to compromise. Quantity doesn't equal quality.
189
Balls should not have to hire an escort. I'd be glad to smack any Christian conservative in the nuts for free.
190
I am so sorry that BALLS had to hire an escort to get what he so clearly deserves. I would be glad to smack any conservative christian in the nuts for free.
191
@186: Thanks for the word 'aleatory.' I like it. (In the same spirit, it's 'cum grano salis.')

I think finding a partner of a matching sex drive is not a matter of randomness, provided that you prioritize that. You have to have priorities, and I think that being sexually compatible should be one of the top ones, if not the top one.
It's not hard to find someone who is ok with, say, daily PIV, if you make that a priority.

I think what 185 and I are responding to is this annoying attitude that Dan and others here have, which seems very similar to "you're lucky to get sex at all, so don't push it." Dan's gotten so many letters from people who have wasted years of their lives in unfulfilling relationships where they've settled, that you'd think he'd encourage people to try to find someone compatible, rather than support this whole stereotype that men are lucky just to get sex and shouldn't expect women to actually like sex. This is the last place I'd expect to hear "settle for an unfulfilling sex life because it could be even more unfulfilling."

I can't imagine having a working relationship with someone who couldn't have PIV more than four times a week. I'd feel frustrated and rejected and unloved, and she'd feel pestered and annoyed, and it would be difficult to remain civil. Just seems like a bad situation all around. The boyfriend in the letter may seem whiny or unpleasant, but it's really hard to remain good-natured all the time in that kind of situation; I can't say I really blame him there.

I think people are underestimating how unpleasant that situation may be for the guy, and how important it is to have someone who's not turning you down all the time, and how hard it is to get along with someone who is.
192
@BlackRose:

God damn it, I knew that something looked wrong about "cum grano salo." Of course it's salis -- it's a fucking genitive, duh. Thanks for catching my idiot mistake; clearly I've been too long away from Latin. Mea maxima culpa.

I certainly don't buy into or have any wish to promote the ugly old myth that women "give" sex out of obligation or kindness and don't derive any real pleasure from it themselves.* And I do think that, whether or not the overall distribution of intensity of libido for females is entirely symmetrical with the overall distribution of intensity of libido for males (and I kind of suspect that it isn't) there is (a) a very substantial overlap between the two sexes (b) a lot of variability within each individual sex. All that being said, my offhand guess would be that the supply of sexually ravenous heterosexual women falls short of the demand (and, by the same token, the supply of sexually ravenous heterosexual men exceeds the demand). I won't speculate on the scope of the supply/demand mismatch, except to say that I don't think it's huge, but I do think that MBIIH's boyfriend would be working against something of a statistical uphill if he went off in search of greener pussy.

Generally speaking, I tend to be a cynic. My fundamental outlook on most things in life -- including, but hardly limited to, sex -- is not "follow every rainbow"; it's "just be happy you aren't starving to death in a gutter." Still, if MBIIH and her boyfriend aren't just failing to make one another as happy as they want to be, but are making each other actively unhappy -- a possibility that seems increasingly likely to me as this thread goes on -- then they're better off parting ways.

I'm not totally thrilled with your suggestion here and elsewhere that frustrated libido in some measure excuses treating one's partner poorly. Yes, people tend to behave unkindly when they're unhappy, but if your partner is making you so unhappy that you can't behave kindly, then it's your responsibility to realize that and end the relationship. I still don't know if MBIIH's boyfriend is likely to find a woman who has all the qualities that presumably attract him to his current girlfriend, plus a sex drive to match his own -- particularly given that he really does sound like a whiny little fucker -- but at this point I'm willing to concede that they might be fatally incompatible and better off without each other.

*On a side note, I don't think Dan buys into this myth either; I think he's simply trying to combat the equally ugly myth that heterosexual women "owe it" to their partners to be perpetually and unconditionally sexually accessible.
196
@Blackrose.
Yes! You sort of hit on part of what was bothering me. "Like ohhh you had to have the sex FOUR TIMES this week? Ohh.. tsk tsk, you poor dear. You must be exhausted by all that. The horrible unpleasant things we do for our men. (sigh)"

@avast

I would tend to disagree with you. If women here are allowed to say 'Oh I like sex, but not when I'm being pressured' then I think it's fair for someone who likes PIV to say 'I like oral, but not when it's being offered as a substitute for PIV." Like I said, it's not about those things not being enjoyable, it about wanting a sex life that isn't mostly about consolation prizes. Yes those things are probably better than nothing (if you put a gun to my head and put in me in a relationship like that I'd probably take them too) but that doesn't mean he should just shut up and be satisfied.

Oh and by the way, if he's being a whiny ass - so is she. This letter is the equivilant of "Daaaannn my boyfriend likes SEX too much. Tell him he's wrong and bad please?" (She asks Dan if he would characterize her boyfriends libido as "ridiculously" high. Because that's very sensitive and nice of her).

And yes, I do think using sex as a weapon is disgusting. If you're willing to do that to someone you have no business being with them. That's not to say that there aren't situations where periods without sex are reasonable. For example, if you have a fight with someone and legitimately do not want to have sex with them for a period of time - yes, okay, fine. But deliberately using withdrawal of sex to win an argument or make a point is totally disgusting in my books. I stand by that.

Especially because the point she'd be proving is on the whole "never" thing? Jesus fuck - it's called hyperbole. You're allowed to use it from time to time especially to express frustration. That's what it's there for. Besides, again she does it too . Do you really think her boyfriend wants to have sex "constantly".

And frankly, even if he does - can you blame him? If a person is starving, they want to eat constantly. It doesn't mean they're a gluttonous pig who would eat all day given that chance. It means they're hungry. That's what happens when someone barely gets a chance to eat.
197
@195
A quickie need not be bad.
198
actually, cocky, let me put it to you this way.

Do you go to the gym?
Do you got the movies?
Do you go to bars or concerts?
Cooking classes?
Social outings?

People make time for the things that are important to them. I'm a student who's extremely busy (yes I have a job) and I pretty much have to choose between a social life and a sex life. I don't do any of the things on the above list.
199
She probably puked because he had his hand on the back of her head and was slamming her gag reflex. She understandably hated it, and he for whatever reason liked it.
201
@192 "all the qualities that presumably attract him to his current girlfriend, plus a sex drive to match his own"

I think BlackRose's point is that people who want sex on the high side of average may have to prioritize sex drive over the other qualities they look for in a partner (beauty, charm, strange, top... ;-) Or pick their partners from the poly community, and then arrange schedules to get the sex they need from multiple partners.
202
I'm exaggerating on the no social life part. But I pass up a LOT in the way of social events because of school and also because I don't really drink and most people in my age bracket like to go to bars and etc. I have a very small/limited social life. Small group of close friends sort of thing. I don't see them as much as I would in a perfect world, especially around midterms.

Sex is exercise. You're saying you can't have a good sex life without going to the gym? I huuugely disagree.
203
@Erica

And by people, you mean men?
204
No, not especially.
205
You don't think most men would prefer to have sex above the average amount?
206
EricaP & mydriasis: I was going to jump into the fray, but you've already basically said what I was going to say.

Mydriasis: Yeah. Who has TIME for sex during midterms or finals, let alone a movie, other than seasoned party animals?
207
Studying is more productive with breaks. Most people know that. So studying straight through for 6 hours will mean less info absorbed than say 5.5 with a half hour break in the middle.
208
@205, I think if someone loves an activity more than most people do, and wants a partner to share it with, then that has to be part of the mate selection process. This holds true whether the activity is travel, gaming, historical reenactment, opera, Master/slave power exchange, or PIV sex.

@207 - sex as study aid, I love it!

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