Columns Feb 29, 2012 at 4:00 am



letter #1 makes me wonder if boundary-ignoring hubby is like this in other aspects. or did he bring the MFF threesome up as a way to fuck other women without being a CPOS? hmm?

"did he bring the MFF threesome up as a way to fuck other women without being a CPOS?"

If so, he screwed that plan up royally by being a POS.
Some women do the arbitrary no penis in vagina rule as a way to avoid potential "third" pregnancy. Having worked for a lawyer, I can tell you those are really awkward custody battles.

Well said Dan!
Yay, I'm the first to comment AND it's my first time commenting - first time registered but long time fan and reader. Jolly well said Dan!
@5 welcome!

For Heartbroken, I wonder what this means: "I was completely down with every other aspect of the threesome."

I'd love to hear that meant "I enjoyed seeing him enjoy himself, and give her pleasure, and I was more aroused than I thought I would be."

If that's the case, and assuming your husband follows Dan's advice and apologies to you, then you might see if you can reframe the threesome as a hot adventure, for yourself, during a private masturbatory session. If so, then try talking about it in a sexy way with your husband (either as equals, or saying he was a bad boy, or whatever else comes to mind). If you decide to move forward and share more adventures with him, I think that will work best if you can forgive & forget what he did, and give him another honest chance to get it right.

But if your phrase meant: "It wasn't as bad as I thought, and I was proud of myself for being so GGG, even though I wasn't aroused" -- then just work on rebuilding your trust in your marriage in other ways, and maybe plan an adventure to which you both can look forward.
What a stupid motherfucker Heartbroken's husband is. And what a stupid motherfucker SLASH is about to be. I think these 2 are a match made in whatever imaginary plain of existence one happens to believe in.
Hey SLASH, you do understand the basic concept that unwanted sexual contact is emotionally upsetting? Is it part of your "biggest fantasy of all" to bail your husband out of jail after he throws the bi guy naked down the hotel stairwell? 'Cause that's the situation you are basically setting up.
Much as I love Dan's response to Heartbroken, I wish there were some advice in there. He answers the question that yes, she is justified in feeling hurt. There's nothing about how to get over the hurt or whether she should get over the hurt or how to heal the relationship or whether she'd be better off dumping the motherfucker now rather than later. The advice is for Heartbroken's husband on how to get more of what he wants. I don't think a plausible explanation and abject apology is going to cut it in this case, but even if it were, there's nothing on how Heartbroken herself can get what she wants-- unless she wants an explanation and apology in which case, see the bit about that not cutting it.
If the problem is she doesn't want to be touched by another woman after her abuse then why can't WIYCCUW do her MFF with the strict rule of no sexual contact with the other woman? Anyone worth sleeping with is going to be very sympathetic and understanding about this issue.

No same sex sexual contact is a totally reasonable preference. This is normally what guys do in a MMF...

Dan hit them all out of the park with exceptionally good, interesting, AND very educational answers this week.
@9 --

Now that you put it that way, I can see how it's problematic. If it helps -- I read it first as not entirely aimed at the husband, but at other people who might be tempted to pull the same POS move. It's "you, motherfucker, could have gotten what you want, but you fucked it up by being a POS" -- which doesn't change the fact that the motherfucker has been a POS (and the recommendation that he immediately start respecting his wife, who was not a POS and has done nothing wrong and thus doesn't need to be told what to do differently), but might serve as an object lesson in turning other potential POSes away from POShood. That said -- yeah, the focus on the stupid motherfucker rather than the injured party is a mistake.
I'd also like to know what that "plausible explanation" might consist of. Even if he were lying, what might Heartbroken's husband say? What explanation/excuse is there that doesn't boil down to "I really wanted to so I did it"?

Abducted by aliens?

Or, "I thought you'd changed your mind because you didn't object at the moment"? I'm guessing that's what he'll come up with, a sort of "this is your fault" coupled with "I decided you were being unreasonable so I ignored you" which goes back to "I really wanted to so I did it"?

I hope Heartbroken doesn't fall for that. If she does, she's setting herself up for more being ignored. Once she accepts that sort of logic, he can ignore anything she says, or she can never say anything without knowing ahead of time what he'd accept as the proper amount of objection in order to be listened to.

I think this might be one where the problem isn't that he could have had great sexual adventures if he'd only listened to his wife. The problem is that he now needs to spend the rest of his life trying to regain his wife's trust.
@9, 12,

I, for one, think the situation is not as dire as you present it. I think there's a decent chance she'd accept a "plausible explanation and an abject apology."

Not a plausible explanation that suggests it was really her fault, but one that owns up to his responsibility. Something like this: "I knew you didn't want me to do that, but I got swept up in the moment. It was a shitty thing to do to you, and I hope you know that I'm really sorry, and would do anything to make it up to you."

My guess is she'll forgive him in the next few months. Yes, he'll need to avoid further screw-ups, but a good marriage should be able to survive a thoughtless mistake like this.
Am I the only one who has ever had sex when I totally didn't intend to? Fucking is a primitive instinct and when you are turned on it's pretty damn difficult to not do it. I don't see it as a betrayal decision entirely. Every single animal will risk its life to have sex, and we are no different. I think the guy was caught up in the moment and forgot all about the 'rule' especially since she didn't forbid it, she said she was 'uncomfortable' with it. I hope they can get past this. I hardly ever disagree with Dan, but this time I think he overreacted.
heartbroken doesn't ask for advice, she asks if she's wrong to feel hurt. Dan answered that. Sometimes people just need their feelings validated a little bit and they'll work things out themselves now that they've been given that confidence-booster
Man forget sex, this shit isn't even worth it. Risking weeks/months/years of emotional torture for a few minutes of potential pleasure that's never anywhere near as good in reality as you imagine it will be? You might as well just shoot yourself when you're done because you've just purchased yourself a one-way ticket to a world of shit and there are no refunds.
Ms Erica - The answer is simple. The next threesome, if there is one, will have the husband bound, gagged and doing nothing but watching as the third (an M this time, though he is told beforehand it will be an F) gives his wife a better time than he can. I recommend a professional, paid from the husband's wallet.

You may note what a benign mood I'm in. If I were in a naughty mood, I'd suggest that the third, after satisfying the wife, pretend to turn his attentions to the husband. No prize for guessing what I'd suggest if I were in a nasty mood.

The apology you want for her is a reasonable one, but I don't hold the chance of her getting it as high, as the sort of person capable of it wouldn't cross the only line drawn in the first place. Maybe he'll read this column, recognize himself, and do something Japanese.
@ 6, 13, & 14:
I don't want to tell someone to leave her marriage or anything (I think Sloggers often default to a DTMFA too quickly, and I'm of the opinion that there aren't always so many other, better fish in the sea), but I'm with Dan and Crinoline here. Heartbroken was pretty damn GGG and her selfish husband couldn't respect her limits. She says explicitly that her reasons for having the threesome were to please him--and she doesn't mention having had any interest whatsoever in a threesome for her own sake. She also says that she was reluctant to intrude on her husband's good time, not that she was more turned on than she anticipated being.

He strikes me as being incredibly selfish, and I find myself wondering how this selfishness plays itself out in other areas.

If she is heartbroken and he apologizes by saying "hey, so sorry; I got carried away and did what I really wanted to do even though I knew you didn't want me to do it," that doesn't seem like much of an apology to me. He's like a kid who got caught breaking a rule and isn't sorry for the behavior, but is very, very sorry he got caught. If this is the kind of apology that is offered, the only lesson he will have learned is that he can do absolutely anything he wants regardless of how he knows she feels about it, and if he apologizes afterward, he'll be forgiven. It's the old "better to ask for forgiveness than permission" routine, and I think it reinforces bad behavior.

It seems to me that there should be consequences.
Dan's repsonse to LW1's spouse was harsh, but well-deerved and well-earned. He blew it, big time. Look for LW1 to write another letter in about a year in which she ponders ending the marriage.
Well I wasn't first to post after all...but thanks @6!

And @14, yeah it's a primitive instinct, but we aren't just a bunch of hormones and chemicals acting in a socio-cultural, inter-personal vacuum; society would be a whole lot crappier/non-existent otherwise. There's a whole lot more to sex drive than that - learning, experience, socio-cultural norms etc.
Yes most of us have probably fucked when we didn't necessarily consciously intend to. Sub consciously we probably did or at least some little part of our brain knew what we really wanted to do; fuck. You can choose to be self-aware or not. And when we have an agreement with a loved one, we should def choose to be self aware.
I don't buy in to that whole uncontrollable urge BS. It's the same old tired excuse used by sex offenders and their defence lawyers. Moreover, anybody who has had their parent/s walk in on them as a teenager, when in the middle of or about to fuck a partner, will tell you it is most definitely NOT impossible to control sexual urges when it really matters.
@Mr. Ven: I like your suggestion.

@EricaP: In so many ways I admire you, but what has worked for you and your dynamic with your husband doesn't necessarily work for everyone.
You are particularly GGG, and you and your husband, whom you've described as your dom (which might play a part in your acceptance of his behavior) have been together a long time, and have kids--all these are reasons--perhaps--to consider more forgiveness.

We don't know how long Heartbroken and her husband have been together, what the dynamic of their marriage is, whether or not they have children, etc.

But I will say that you have alluded to being upset by the discovery of your husband's repeated and seemingly unnecessary lies, discovered after you rallied after the discovery of his infidelity after which you seemed to have remade yourself from monogamous wife into super-slut, mostly to satisfy a man who seems insufficiently grateful. You recently answered someone's question about your preference saying that if you were married to someone else you would hope for monogamy, from which I conclude that you have made and are continuing to make a lot of sacrifices for your husband who doesn't even pay you the courtesy of being honest about his resumption of smoking. Forgive me if I say that I think you sell yourself short, and that is your right to do. But it kind of stings to see you trying to cast Heartbroken's experiences in a more positive light so that she can take a leaf from your book.

I'm sorry if I offended you, but I guess I'm in a less benign mood than Mr. Vennominon is.

EPIC FAIL. Seriously. Let me count the ways.

First, and most importantly, you fail as an ethical human being. It's not okay to try to trick your sex partner into doing things that s/he has already told you s/he isn't comfortable doing. Period, full stop, end of story, no discussion.

Less importantly, but still worth mentioning, you fail as a member of the slash community. (Granted, the term "slash community" implies a degree of shared identity and central organization that doesn't actually exist; "slash communities" or "slash network" might be more appropriate. But you know what I'm talking about.) My personal philosophy is that fandom is like Fight Club: you don't fucking talk about it. But if you are going to talk about fandom -- in a nationally syndicated column, no less -- then please, please, for the love of Kirk/Spock, don't imply some sort of causal relationship between your fannish activities and your casual disregard for other people's sexual boundaries. ("I write slash, therefore I am compelled to trick my unwilling husband into acting out my fantasies in real life!") Obviously I can't speak for anybody but myself, but I'd bet good money that if I took a poll and worked out the percentage of slash fans who were happy to have their hobby publicly associated with your delusional, amoral asshattery, I'd wind up with a number starting with a decimal point and a couple of zeros.
Dan needs to write a book of 21st Century Sexual Etiquette. And if you do, Dan, would you kindly include the following: If there's something particular you'd like to your partner to wear--heels, clamps, mum's rubber apron, whatever-- it's perfectly acceptable to ask he/she wear it/them. If, however, your partner does not already posses these items, *YOU* freaking pay for them!
i am enchanted by the idea of "favorite tit clamps." "Hon, let's just use the everyday tit clamps tonight. We'll break out my favorite tit clamps when company's coming."

Heh. Never mind that most yaoi (form of slashfic) is written by women for women.
I always thought I'd be open to a threesome until I read that first letter. It makes my stomach turn... what a nightmare betrayal. I don't think there is any way I could sit quietly so as not to disturb and not freak the fuck out if that happened to me. That stupid motherfucking husband deserves exactly what #17 describes. Either or. Fuck you POS husband. You NEVER deserved to have a threesome. If I was the LW I would have a hard time not questioning POS husband's fidelity after some shit like that.
Great column this week. Heartbroken asked if it was wrong for her to still feel hurt, and I think Dan's answer makes it quite clear that she's not wrong, even though it's directed at her husband.

"Every single animal will risk its life to have sex, and we are no different." Every kind of animal might, but not every animal, thanks!
Happy Extra Day! (I'm on the East coast, so it's the 29th already).

Dan hit it out of the park with this column. I lurve so much that articulate and righteous indignation pointed at people who truly truly deserve it. If I were in Heartbroken's shoes, man, I would be so done.

And Slash's husband is married to an asshole. Wow. Don't do it Slash.

I'm a little curious what the question was: "What's the best strategy for getting my husband—" to what?

"What's the best strategy for getting my husband on board?"


"What's the best strategy for getting my husband drugged properly so that my friend can fuck him and he won't fight back. Oh, and it would help if he didn't remember very much either. That would be hot, knowwhatImean?" (I imagine she's a pretty bad person).

Also, love the Joe Newton cartoon. "Don't,um, don't fuck the cheese Brown Mouse, that was part of the deal."
The first letter scared the hell out of me. I'm on the fence about a threesome, and the possibility of fuck ups like that (and the horrible heartbreak that follows) is what keeps me on the fence. Assholes like that guy are the reason more women are up here on the fence with me.
I'm a little surprised to hear Dan "monogamy is unnatural" Savage say that Heartbroken's husband needs a third party's consent to fuck anybody else. I thought the solution would be to tell wifey that if he's good most of the time, that should count for something.

WYICCUW and SLASH need to remember one thing. Rape is an act of violence and power by The Patriarchy. Women are entirely without power and privilege. Ergo, women cannot rape, and neither should act like that's something to worry about.
WYICCUW's letter has prompted me to tell a cautionary tale. A caution against revealing your kinks too soon, or sharing your traumas too late with your partner. I very, very, VERY fortunately avoided a misstep that probably would have ruined the wonderful relationship I'm in with a wonderful GGG guy, I'll call M.

I'm a straight woman and shy about revealing I have a rape fantasy. Very few people understand it; most people think it's disgusting. I have only ever mentioned it once - to a FWB, and only after he first mentioned he had the same fantasy - and had it thrillingly fulfilled. I had been in a relationship with M for 7 months when I finally decided I would broach it with him. Before I could find the right time and work up the balls to actually do it, he revealed a very painful part of his past. That his sister had been raped and murdered when she was 12. Boy, did I dodge a bullet. I know, now, I cannot EVER bring this up with him, because there is no way he would consider it, and, worse, would probably be repelled by it - and by me, for harbouring it. Our sex life is great, and I can live without having this particular kink of mine fulfilled ever again. There are far, FAR more important things. I don't remember what Dan's advice was on the time-frame for revealing your kinks, but I am so, SO glad I waited so long.
WYICCUW's letter has prompted me to tell a cautionary tale. A caution against revealing your kinks too soon, or sharing your traumas too late with your partner. I very, very, VERY fortunately avoided a misstep that probably would have ruined the wonderful relationship I'm in with a wonderful GGG guy, I'll call M.

I'm a straight woman and shy about revealing I have a rape fantasy. Very few people understand it; most people think it's disgusting. I have only ever mentioned it once - to a FWB, and only after he first mentioned he had the same fantasy - and had it thrillingly fulfilled. I had been in a relationship with M for 7 months when I finally decided I would broach it with him. Before I could find the right time and work up the balls to actually do it, he revealed a very painful part of his past. That his sister had been raped and murdered when she was 12. Boy, did I dodge a bullet. I know, now, I cannot EVER bring this up with him, because there is no way he would consider it, and, worse, would probably be repelled by it - and by me, for harbouring it. Our sex life is great, and I can live without having this particular kink of mine fulfilled ever again. There are far, FAR more important things. I don't remember what Dan's advice was on the time-frame for revealing your kinks, but I am so, SO glad I waited so long.

You're right, we are animals and sometimes fucking is unintentional. Sometimes that's the best kind of fucking.

What makes it the worst kind, is when it doesn't come with someone else's fucking permission.

Heartbroken's husband violated her during a sexual experience. He hurt her through a sexual act. That's pretty low.

I mean, if you set the boundary with a guy not to stick his finger in your arse during sex and then he did. You'd feel violated, maybe not by the act, but by the implicit trust agreement we have with anyone we get naked and sexual with that they won't hurt us (unless we like that).

You're right, we are animals and sometimes fucking is unintentional. Sometimes that's the best kind of fucking.

What makes it the worst kind, is when it doesn't come with someone else's fucking permission.

Heartbroken's husband violated her during a sexual experience. He hurt her through a sexual act. That's pretty low.

I mean, if you set the boundary with a guy not to stick his finger in your arse during sex and then he did. You'd feel violated, maybe not by the act, but by the implicit trust agreement we have with anyone we get naked and sexual with that they won't hurt us (unless we like that).

WYICCUW and SLASH need to remember one thing. Rape is an act of violence and power by The Patriarchy. Women are entirely without power and privilege. Ergo, women cannot rape, and neither should act like that's something to worry about.

You do realize that this is not actually Standard Feminist Doctrine™, right? Yes, Dworkin, MacKinnon, and Brownmiller -- the beloved strawwomen of anti-feminist reactionaries -- all operate on the assumption that only men can be rapists, but they are speaking for and from a strange and distant fringe. I'm not going to play the No True Scotswoman card and claim that Brownmiller et al. aren't "real" feminists, but they sure as heck don't speak for all feminists.

Needless to say, I don't speak for all feminists either. Nonetheless, I am fairly confident that a substantial majority of self-identified feminists would take it as self-evident that women can and do commit rape, albeit less frequently than men do. (Here, the legalistically-minded might be inclined to quibble about terminology, but let's assume for our purposes that "rape" simply means "to engage in sex with a non-consenting party," and try to avoid any semantic grandstanding over what constitutes "sex.") If any actual feminists -- as opposed to feminist-baiting trolls -- would like to prove me wrong and seriously argue that women are categorically incapable of committing sexual violence, please feel free to do so . . . but I'm not holding my breath.
I can understand the idea that one can find oneself in an unexpected (sexual) situation, a situation one had not agreed to beforehand, and end up liking it. I.e., SLASH might conceivably get her husband to like having sex with the second guy in her threesome. And Heartbroken might conceivably have (surprisingly) enjoyed the very thing she had ruled out.

It's possible. But then again, seriously: what are the odds?

If the conclusion you drew from your negotiations with your partner(s) about what it is you're going to do in your next adventure time is that you need to pull a surprise twist in the agreed-upon rules on the remote chance that it will all work out for the best -- that there are easy ways of convincing people they like something they say they don't like without their cooperation... Then you're simply setting yourself up for trouble.

I'm sorry, but I have to agree that the only honorable path to changing other people's tastes is actively involving them in the process, with their consent (usually via being GGG). And even in this case, it often doesn't work (just like your own tastes, for that matter, don't change appreciably just because your partner wishes they would).

But if it works... as Dan pointed out... then you have a much better situation.

To Heartbroken, I would simply say: yes, Dan is right, it's OK for you to feel heartbroken and to express these feelings to your husband. He does indeed owe you at least a heartfelt apology. All in all, maybe he was just, as it were, overcome by his hormones in the heat of the moment; or maybe, like SLASH, he thought you would be overcome by yours and change your mind; but either way he took a risk that he didn't have the right to take. Being an unrepenting optimist, I hope you'll forgive him and you guys will go on to a better understanding of each other's limits, and that your husband will understand how important respect is (it fosters trust, and in sex, as in so many other things, trust is an invaluable plus).

To SLASH, I would say: no matter how alluring the fantasy that you could "make someone like" what they don't like (because, who knows, maybe they're lying to themselves, we're all perverse polymorphs, kinksters sans frontières, we just need some "encouragement" to "let go") as if life were one endless Tinto Brass or Emmanuelle movie... No. People are more complicated than that. I won't say it never works. But the odds are veeerry much against you; you'll probably end up just like Heartbroken's husband: having, in the best-case scenario, to give a heartfelt apology.
14- MsJagger-- Yes, I have gone ahead with PIV sex when I hadn't entirely decided that's what I was going to do earlier. I was in my 20s and thought it would be best for the relationship if I waited, then got turned on in the heat of the moment and decided to go ahead. For me, PIV sex was the most intimate, a threshold to cross.

I think you're right when you say that fucking is a primitive instinct. For that reason, I quickly learned that if I thought it would be best to hold off, I didn't put myself in that situation in the first place. I didn't get naked with the guy.

Apply this to Heartbroken's husband's situation. If his explanation to his wife is that he's really sorry, he didn't mean to, that he just got turned on and carried away because fucking is a primitive instinct, then her reasonable response should be that she understands and won't put him in that situation where he can't control himself again. i.e. no more threesomes. We're back to Dan's advice where we started.
@36(echizen_kurage), I've often compared this kind of troll, whose irony is based on some degree of belief in an evil feminist conspiracy to enslave men, to the religious fundamentalists who think there's a war on Christmas, or who worry Obama is about to turn America into a Muslim country.

The sad thing is that there are points to be made -- there are, I'm sorry to say, feminists who would deny that women could ever commit sexual violence (unless they were led to it by men or The Patriarchy); I've met some on the internet. There are mysandric opinions out there, as well as naive perceptions of how social processes work and who's to blame. There are people with a girls-vs.-boys, war-of-the-sexes mentality.

But instead of actually trying to contribute intelligently to a discussion on feminism with real points and arguments, they prefer not to acknowledge the overwhelmingly majority of reasonable people who identify with feminism that you mentioned and go off on a tangent about some parallel dystopian universe, mimicking the very behavior they purport to criticize.

They consciously decide not to respect their opponent's common humanity and intelligence. They consciously decide to resort to exaggeration and overgeneralization and facile assumptions, even when they aren't really necessary because there might be good points to be made. In so doing, they forfeit their right to be similarly respected. Just like their own worst enemies.

As in so many other things, this spectrum is a circle, and the extremes meet.
I've always taken issue with the term "bisexual experience"

someone having a sexual experience with a person of the same gender, though they may BE bisexual, are have a homosexual experience.
@14(MsJagger), I was basically going to say what Crinoline above said, with which I agree entirely. Or, to put it in my personal style: it's true that we often are carried away by the situation and do unplanned things in the sexual realm. Which is why what counts is what happens before this situation. Hubby at best thought he would be able to control himself and follow the agreed-upon rule with his wife; well, he didn't. Now she would be certainly within her rights to, as Crinoline above notes, say she doesn't want to put him in this situation of being unable to control himself again, i.e. no more threesomes. Unless he can convince her that he won't agree to something and then fail to respect it again.

It's the same rule for all kinds of agreements between people, isn't it? If he thinks he can't do it, that it's impossible for him, then ultimately he should leave her and find someone else who would give him the kind of agreement he needs to live sanely. But if he wants to stay with her, he has to negotiate with her. Just as she has to negotiate with him in order to stay with him.


I have fantasies of ramming cars that cut me off and glitter bombing Santorum, and they will never happen because of the serious consequences resulting from carrying them out.  Unfortunately you are playing with exactly that kind of circumstance.  If you want to surprise your husband, have the partner serenade him, offer to do a full body massage (without sex), or ask him to read your slash interactively with your husband.  Just don't cross the line of hurting your husband, and your relationship, unless this is a particularly  cruel way of making him divorce you.  You may be running your husband's tolerance for your sake into the land of "Fuck Off!".

Heartbroken's husband is a classic case of being careful for what you wish for.  It is time for her to remind her husband of just how much he could lose if she decides to forgive him.

@31 Chitodd,

Your latter statement is so full of shit, I don't want to touch it, except:  "Women are entirely without power and privilege".  If that statement is anything like the "real world", then where I live is even more remove from the common plane of existence than I thought.

Wow. It's amazing (and sad) that these folks would be so mean to someone they supposedly love.

Well done as usual, Dan.

how much he could lose even if she decides to forgive him.

What I meant about Heartbroken's husband, and his wish, has more to do with the "Law of Unintended Consequence". He proved just how little she should trust him.

I know that Dan may have access to more details than we do, but the printed version of Heartbroken's letter gives me a lot of sympathy for her husband. Heartbroken comes across as a passive-aggressive martyr. She lays out an ambiguous ground rule ("I said I was uncomfortable," not "we agreed we wouldn't"), then when it's violated in the heat of the moment she acts as though she's OK with it, but afterward she's not merely upset or angry but heartbroken. If vaginal intercourse is really that big a deal to her, how could she not object while it was happening?

It sounds to me like she wants to restrict her husband's behavior (which is perfectly reasonable in this context), but doesn't want to accept responsibility for the restriction (which is not). She needs to own up to not being as GGG as she likes to think she is.

All that being said, everything Dan said to the husband was dead-on. A wife who will agree to a threesome is rare treasure, and a husband should do everything he can to accommodate such a wife's wishes.
I agree with ven(17)/cute(21) re: Erica.

The situation in LW1 is basically my worst nightmare. Not that I'd do a threeway in any case, but still. God, awful. What a douche. And sorry, Erica, but the idea that someone's relationship is not 'good' or 'strong' if they can't 'survive' that. That makes me very uncomfrotable - I mean, it's essentially blaming the wife for not putting up with enough from her man. "He only beat the shit out of you once, Cheryl, a good marriage should be able to survive that." Personally, I'd rather the trip to the emergency room over her scenario and it's a less embarassing DTMFA.
46- goshawk-- A lot depends on how we interpret these 2 statements in Heartbroken's letter:

1. "I laid out my ground rules."
2. "I said I was uncomfortable."

When I read it, I thought the ground rules were pretty clear. Clear to us the reading audience and clear to the husband who understood that those were the rules.

But you and others (14-MsJagger) have zeroed in on the possibility that she didn't make the ground rules clear and all she did was voice a vague discomfort with the idea of PIV sex. If that is indeed the case, then Heartbroken's husband does have a defense.
20) SexEd: Thank you for that. My mind reeled reading # 14. Yes, I’m sure we’ve all ended up having sex that wasn’t premeditated (or the best idea), but we’re still responsible for it. Excellent point with the sex offender excuse. Own what you do, people. If you want to be treated and respected as more than an animalistic drive, then you have to own your actions as a thinking human (and of course you are humans, and humans are prone to making mistakes which is why apologies were invented).
@47, that's too far: "He only beat the shit out of you once, Cheryl, a good marriage should be able to survive that."

Dan says (approximately) that a marriage is a bunch of apologies given and accepted, interspersed with some orgasms.

For grownups who agreed to be in a threesome, this is not the End of The World. It's a betrayal, but not like "beating the shit out of her."

Give me a break. Or don't.


You all have great relationships, with never anything to apologize for beyond leaving the butter out. Fan-fucking-tastic.

I think I go along w/#14. While I don't exactly disagree with Dan's harsh comments about Heartbroken's husband, there's a part of me that thinks well, what did you expect when you consented to this? Laying out ground rules beforehand doesn't exactly hold a lot of reliability when it comes time to the actual sexual experience. Plus, it's OK for him to put his dick in a woman's mouth but not her vagina? I'm sure Bill Clinton would think so, but in either case, he's getting sexual excitement with another woman, but one of them is OK w/you and the other is not??

It seems to me if you don't want your husband to enjoy sexual activity w/another woman, don't be conceding to a threesome in the first place. That was stupid, and she needs to take some responsibility for this feeling of heartache.
Heartbroken might want to temper her heartbreak a bit by realizing that this was their first attempt at what was probably a lifelong, intense fantasy of her husband. Yes, he failed at it. But just as Dan points out that the rules may relax with experience, so may the ability and self-control of the participants increase with experience. You're married. Don't quit on each other after one try.

To others who may deny the validity of "I was caught up in the moment" I would say that not only is that statement factually correct but also it's a bit of an understatement. That was one hell of a moment in the guy's life. He made one hell of mess of it, but still. Let him apologize and then figure out how to proceed. Sometimes it seems like we condemn people for failing to do something, yet if they had done it we would have called them heroic. Is there nothing between "total asshole" and "heroic self-control out of the gate"?

Worst fucking idea I've seen in all my years of reading SL.
@ 51 - No, she doesn't need to "take some responsibility". She agreed to the threesome only if he would obey that groundrule. He didn't. YOUR feelings about the validity of that groundrule are totally irrelevent, since you're not part of that marriage.

Your argument is totally self-serving and is akin to saying "I don't agree with this law, so it's OK if I break it. What did they expect when they adopted such a silly law?" Well, you'll still go to prison if you get caught.


Worst fucking idea I've seen in all my years of reading SL.

A year or so ago, there was a letter from a pedophile who was considering babysitting for his friends -- I think that one takes the prize for "worst fucking idea." Still, SLASH definitely deserves an honorable mention.
@17, if your proposal is meant non-consensually, that would certainly be the end of the marriage. Plus, you know, criminal charges of false imprisonment, theft, and assault (if you were in a 'naughty mood.') She'd be better off just calling a divorce attorney if she's as vindictive as you propose.

@18 Of course there are natural consequences. She doesn't trust him for a while. She's less GGG. But are you imagining punitive consequences, on the order of having to write 1000 times "I won't put my P in another woman's V"? Or being grounded from going out bowling with the guys for three weeks? What consequences do you think would be appropriate in this case?
After 3 years of being GGG and open to my husband's fantasies, I'm over it. We were listed on a swinger's site, attended parties and met several couples. He picks them, I am always disappointed. After "another" fun weekend where he promised me that I wouldn't be "taking one for the team" I was left alone in bed while he enjoyed himself "elsewhere" till 4:30 in the morning. He came back to the hotel room smelling like pussy and promptly passed out. I was left feeling betrayed and pissed off for the remainder of the night. I'm still upset. NOT that he slept with another woman (he's done that before) NOT that he was alone (he's done that before too) I am mad because I was alone waiting in a room for my husband to decide he was done having his fun. I'm "all out." Yes, another person who could care less about the arrangements we made before we started this adventure.
@51, Well, miss, what did you expect when you went to Mike Tyson's hotel room?
You know what's weird about the letter? No mention of condoms. I guess it's possible he had put on a condom for the other woman's blow-job before transitioning to (illicit) fucking. Still seems weird to me that she doesn't mention it. If the guy fucked the third without a condom, that's a whole other level of fuck-up right there.
@EricaP (50): A-fucking-men. So the guy acted like a stupid motherfucker. If you think you haven't at some point, then you are probably delusional or just live such a boring life that you never got the opportunity. Relationships are about the consistent behaviors and our willingness to apologize and adjust our behavior when we screw up.

Let's not forget that people often deceive themselves well before they get to the "betray-your-spouse" part. I'd wager that SLASH has all sorts of rationalizations that are mostly based on confusing fantasy with reality and I'm sure Heartbroken's husband had filled his head with all sorts of bullshit before he went PIV.
PsyQuestor@56, that sucks, I'm so sorry.

When was the last time the two of you worked to fulfill one of your personal fantasies? If your husband's not being GGG and keeping you very happy (and this goes for the LW too), then you do really need to stop and think about the big picture.

(For the record, nocute@21, my kink fantasies are currently getting fulfilled about ten times as often as my husband's extracurricular sex fantasies, so no need to worry about me.)
@5 - I lurvs your much as Lilliable and Welcome!

@32,33 - I'd only add that you probably shouldn't post it here either, not if you want to really keep it to yourself. Someone else was posting a good bit here a little over a year ago about their relationship and kinks; their partner found the postings and it didn't end well.

I do certainly agree with you - if you can honestly live without your kinks - then it's fine not to share them too early. I think the general rule might be something like, "the more significant the issue, the sooner you share it". Fantasies you can live without and forget aren't very significant.
Seems like Heartbroken's husband suffered from first time threesome excitement and pulled a noob move. It could also be indicative of general communication problems between the two of them. Or he could just be an abusive dick though really, we don't know.

I speak from experience. I've had a fair amount of threesomes in the past and made mistakes including violating boundaries in the heat of the moment. Since then I've learned that clear communication and a firm set of rules beforehand are critical. Even in a spontaneous encounter it's better to err on the side of caution.

Now, with my wife I follow her rules every time. I am just so grateful she's down to get freaky with another women. I realize she's being incredibly courageous and trusting. The very least I can do is not fuck that up. This is a lesson that Heartbroken's husband hasn't learned. He screwed up long term gain for short term pleasure and more importantly hurt his wife.

It could be Heartbroken's husband could redeem himself but it's up to her to tell him exactly how he fucked up. It sounds like she's suffering but not telling him what he did. If she wants to get over her hurt she needs to open up.

Rereading this, it sounds like I'm Team Dumbass Husband but I only have her side to go on. Maybe he's realized his mistake and apologized profusely. Maybe he hasn't. Who knows?
@36 - I'm sorry, but MacKinnon is not just a straw-woman, she's a flaming nutbag and kind of evil. I'm not anti-feminist in the least but she can't be dismissed as simply a cartoon caricature. She gets a frightening amount of traction.
I almost don't want to go here since we've already got at least one anti-feminist troll but...
Hasn't Dan offered "strategies" to get reluctant wives and girlfriends to do threesomes/anal/whatever in the past?
Only not okay to do to a guy?
Of course her current plan is horrible bullshit but that's why she needs advice on a better strategy!
EricaP is very defensive, I wonder why.

Not so. This is a conversation about complicated issues between adults, some of whom find it difficult to understand EricaP's choices. She's reminding them of some important facts. Here's another shock for you: she probably hasn't told you everything.
Love letter #1, and I really hope she shows his response to her husband. How Dan Savage helps my vanilla marriage…

Re: "For grownups who agreed to be in a threesome, this is not the End of The World. It's a betrayal, but not like "beating the shit out of her."

Give me a break. Or don't.


You all have great relationships, with never anything to apologize for beyond leaving the butter out. Fan-fucking-tastic."

That is being defensive in response to some posters who expressed concern for her emotional well-being. I mostly just lurk, but I have to agree with the sentiments expressed by ncn and others. Also I believe that EricaP's advice does not suit most people well in most situations. And, she seems unhappy. I know that this assertion will be met with a level of protest from EricaP in a tone which would lead me to believe I'm right, I mean, just look at the response I quoted and her "don't worry" up above.
Okay, I won't.
@69, I'll admit it's annoying to have people on the internet insist I'm unhappy. But I know that I set the stage by admitting to having difficulties adjusting to my husband's midlife crisis. Now that I'm posting less about my personal life, people have a natural tendency to remember the worst bits and assume that sums up my marriage. Do you think that the LW's husband (or mine) is as blameworthy as someone who beats the shit out of his wife (nonconsensually), per mydriasis@47? If so, then we disagree.

Although, note @58 where I raise the issue of condoms and excoriate the husband if he went ahead without one, and @60, where I note that if the LW's husband wants her to fulfill his fantasies but ignores hers, then that's a big concern, to me.

@70 (FYI, pastaefagoli's "Give me a break. Or don't" was quoting me...)
One of the problems I have with the "loss of self control" arguement is that I'm not entirely sure it would be validated to the degree that it has been if it had been a MMF and heartbroken was the husband instead of the wife. Not because I think anyone here is sextist against women, but just cause it seems some expect this sort of behavior from men, which sells men like #62 short.

As for EricaP, she's an adult and whatever she's going is her right. Her giving advice isn't dooming anyone. Plus whenever someone gets advice or listens to an opinion they owe it to themselves to take the source into serious consideration.

Still, I've been with the "Bad Boys" aka awesome people with less than stellar relationship skills. When they hurt you, you can't expect sympathy or kindness from those around you. In fact, I've had to shrug, smile, and change the subject on more than one occassion as a longtime friend outright insulted and sneered at me in a moment of vulnerability.
My husband totally blew his chances of ever having a threesome (even though I am bi, more than GGG, and would love to have one) by telling me point blank he wouldn't consider it "worth it" to even show up if he couldn't put his P in the third's V the first time we ever had one. Way to make it obvious that you don't give two shits about my feelings or boundaries, buddy. FAIL!
@ 71 - Some people seem to think that what you (impersonal you) post on the Internet gives an adequate picture of your entire life, feelings and desires. They just can't fathom that you can and would control the information you send out, or that you might post only when you need to vent about your problems.

As far as I can see, you seem to be pretty much in control of your situation, which doesn't mean that everything is perfect, as every adult who has had relationships should know.

In other words: keep commenting, Erica, it's always interesting to read what you have to say.

Changing subject: about the condoms, the LW most probably did not mention it because it had nothing to do with her problem, and because her otherwise insensitive husband did keep his word as far as condom use is concerned.
@74, it's just that if he stopped long enough to put on a condom, that undercuts the defense of "carried away in the moment" -- if you can remember the condom, you can remember to check with your wife (right there, next to you) if this is okay.
(The people I know don't use condoms for oral, so that's my context...)
its kind of funny that a double standard of "acceptance" is misting out of these comments: a man can lost control of his impulses at the height of his passion and its okay, but no way should we make a man indulge in what his woman wants him to do, even if its gay sex. i say pooten-nanny poon-tang (for that special trans guy who left his family in nebraska to play sexual hipster on capitol hill-you know who you are)! can you imagine a future where sexuality is not based on a gender-biased guilt weapon dictacted by religious fiend-controllers but rather by pure attraction alone? i wouldn't necessarily say i'm gay (never had any type of contact like that) but the thought of cuddling with a magnum p.i. era tom selleck does make my stomach feel a little goey.....
@72 re self-control & women: I meant to stop with oral with a guy when I was 20, and again when I was 40 -- in those cases, I initiated intercourse despite having decided not to. You may be right that fewer Slogsters would admit that women can be made foolish by lust, but it certainly happens.
@ 75 - Totally agree, but she's not the one who came up with the "lost in the moment" defense, sloggers did. And I personally think it's BS (trust me, I'm a guy, and I've had threesomes). And from the sound of it, I don't think she'd buy it.

She might have asked him to use condoms for oral. Or thay might never have used condoms at all and not even thought about it, based on the ridiculous but commonly-held idea that being straight prevents all STDs. At any rate, she doesn't see it as part of the problem.

Anyway, I think the story is enough of a mindfuck as it is that we don't need to look for further evidence of her husband's douchebaggery.

Ms Erica - Just for the record, I said nothing against you. I only addressed you with my suggestion because we seemed to be in the same conversation of how they could move forward. He needs to GET how he made her feel. As whatever apology he issued if any between the event and her writing to Mr Savage indicated nothing in that line, I advocated a sharp lesson.

Anyway, I wasn't being nearly so dramatic as all that. My plan was that she would get him to agree to be bound and gagged, on the understanding that another woman would then enter the room and play with both of them in turn. In fact, let's make this even better and just have her refer to a friend - in honour of the recently departed Mr Jones, I'll call him Gene. Hubby, thinking the threesome will involve Jean, agrees to it, is bound and gagged by wife, and then sees to his horror, when he cannot comment, that Jean is really Gene. Some of my posts are works in progress. I'm finding this increasingly satisfactory.

I shall await further instructions as to whether I am dismissed from court.
@71 EricaP
Yeah, I caught that too late. I didn't follow up to correct because I thought the sentiment was clear in spite of the error.
@10 Professor,

An MFF threesome without contact between the women is a lot like trying to drive two cars across town at the same time. It can be done, but it's really exhausting.
@79 agreed.

@80 - I wasn't referring to you @71, though I may have implicitly included you in my snippiness @50 - I apologize for any offense. Thanks for explaining that you meant the scene to be consensual.

Certainly, from the way she wants Dan to reassure her that she's entitled to feel hurt, it does sound like he's an unapologetic asshole.
Mr J - Heroic self-control is Elinor Dashwood suffering through months of keeping the secret about Edward's engagement to Lucy even when Marianne chides her for being unfeeling on a regular basis. Heroic self-control is Captain Harville taking part in seeing to the portrait drawn for his late sister being prepared as a gift to Captain Benwick's new fiancee. If one believes (which I don't) that Mr Knightley is already in love when Emma when she and Mrs Weston finally mention the possibility of his attachment to Jane Fairfax, then Mr Knightley demonstrates a great deal of heroic self-control not to blackmail or murder Frank Churchill for most of the second half of the novel.

I'd ask if this is really the hill which you'd choose to die defending, but again, I am sufficiently ignorant of the ways of mixed sexes to acknowledge that I can speak with no real authority. But, if you insist that this really would have been "heroic self-control" on the part of the husband to avoid doing the one thing he wasn't supposed to do, then I shall adjust my views and expectations of men attracted to women accordingly, and use those adjusted views in future.

Really, I'd put his behaviour on a par with that of Violet Beauregarde.
@55 Erica, @56 PsyQ,

If I ask the question of what makes it worthwhile to be in a relationship, I'm stuck with my own experiences to give examples of "value".  The intangibles of trust and faith, hope and reliance are where I would start.  If you (both) haven't got those in the relationship, then what kind of bond are you (both) sharing?  I've learned that sexual exclusivity isn't necessarily a requirement, but only when trust is maintained.  Even when monogamy is maintained, it is very easy to damage or destroy a partner's faith, and when the hope is gone, so is the relationship (in most meaningful ways).

I've been through a bad period over the past 5 years; to put it succinctly, I've had to kill the rageaholic that popped out of me after I had a breakdown.  My wife's faith and hope in and for me kept us together.  For me, seeing the pain (and worse, fear) on my wife's face is more than enough punishment.  I at one point considered leaving to protect my family, not physically but certainly from stress.  Conversely, winning a chance for my wife's ebullience is ever so precious.  Building her trust, rewarding her hope, becoming reliable to myself and my family, all are intangibles of great value.  Losing those things, in an adult relationship, should be consequence enough.

I can't stress enough just how difficult it is to understand appropriate responses to the stress, and wear and tear that beset us constantly, without resorting to the "preprogramming" of our upbringing.  Without going through the difficulties in figuring out (at least) what we don't want from our family of origin, it shouldn't be surprising when history repeats itself.  I have gained a lot of help in understanding and bettering myself by reading the examples and advice given through this blog.


@79 Opps! Didn't mean to say she was encouraging that arguement. I just was trying to join in on two conversations (loss of control & EricaP) in one comment square, cause I'm lazy like that.

She's arguing that this 3some mishap is an oversight that heartbroken can work through, which is true. Though, I have to say I'm less on board with the hurt party having to do all the emotional heavy lifting. I'm more with #80. But since things like that tend to vary so wildly couple to couple, just like who earns what & who does what, I'd go with forgiving gradually (not that all at once, you're GGG remember?/live and learn smuck) just cause I for one tend to need to get it all out even if it's just by myself, otherwise it just gets stored in my internal memory forever and pops up like a ringtone attached to a specific phone number.

Would you consider finding a gay couple that wouldn't mind your watching, while your husband services you?

@86 "She's arguing that this 3some mishap is an oversight that heartbroken can work through"

No. I was arguing that the guy made a serious mistake (not an oversight), which heartbroken could work through if she wanted to, and if he was apologetic. Now I'm arguing that he doesn't seem apologetic or GGG or respectful of her feelings. As you say, the hurt party can't do all the heavy lifting to save the relationship.
Ms Erica - I'd have to be in something worse than a vicious mood to contemplate anything nonconsensual.

But I think I may go soon for the rest of the evening. I've been recalling my childhood as well as remembering a later occasion on which I was a bit undiplomatic in expressing my inability to tolerate (apologies in advance to any irate Canadians) Ms Murray's version of Daydream Believer.

It's not about how wonderful other people's relationships are or aren't, it's about honouring women (and men) who stand up for themselves and say "I deserve better than this". And not implying that that's wrong for them to do.

There are LOTS of mistakes people can make, and there are lots of mistakes people in my life have made that have hurt me a lot, whether they were family or friends or boyfriends. But there's a difference to me between the kinds of careless mistakes that all people make, and "mistakes" that people make (I don't think it was a mistake, I think he figured he'd see if he could get away with it) that are revelatory about one's character and therefore predictive of their future (and perhaps past) behaviour.

As Dan said, he put her in a nonconsensual sexual situation, he violated her and her trust.

You know what I find interesting? She doesn't make any mention of him apologizing in the letter. Perhaps Dan cut it out, but if he had apologized do you think Dan would be instructing him to apologize?

You're a grown woman and if you say you're happy in your relationship I take your word for it. (I mean that sincerely though the wording sounds sarcastic)

Where my concern happens is when it seems to me that you give the impression you think that the responsibility of keeping a marriage going rests soley on the wife's responsibility to forgive her husband for mistreating her - not on the husbands responsibility to treat her well in the first place (the ONLY pseudo-exception is your answers to men with low-libido wives). I'm sure that's not how you see it but that's the impressions your comments give me. Which is probably why I responded negatively.

Again, if it works for you in your (sub/dom) relationship, then that's fine. I'm a little on the submissive side myself - but only when I feel safe and cared for. I think most women prefer a more equal/respectful relationship than either you or myself.
I'm a little surprised we haven't brought up the third's part in this. Not that it mitigates the husband's responsibility in any way, but the third surely was informed going into this that there would be no PIV. I'm not saying it's this woman's fault for allowing herself to be fucked, but I do think it's incredibly important to trust your third to also obey your ground rules. Obviously if she's not someone they know well, her betrayal is almost inconsequential, but as advice to future three-way-with-boundary-havers: make sure your third knows and agrees to your ground rules, and make sure you trust him/her.
I guess I should add -- I say this because my first (and so far only) threesome was with my partner (he's male, I'm female) and a dear female friend of both of ours who he'd known growing up. We both trust her absolutely, and she and I conversed on the ground rules beforehand. Actually, each of us discussed ground rules as a twosome first, which helped because it meant that if there was a ground rule I had that I wasn't sure if he was aware of, I could discuss it with her first and make sure we were on the same page so that we could come together as a united front. All of us agreed not to do PIV sex. There was never any point at which I was afraid either of them would break this ground rule because of this very sound prior conversation series.
@EricaP, and her critics, on the issue of forgiveness:

Forgiveness is indeed a virtue; and as another commenter noted, there should be some intermediate positions between the (clearly non-binary) opposition between "hero" and "asshole/douchebag".

I think we all agree he hurt her feelings, and this was wrong. Yes: he did something wrong, it hurt her; we all agree on that. The only question, I think, is whether or not he is "forgivable".

First of all, this is ultimately up to Heartbroken, who knows more about her husband than we do and is in a better position to evaluate how good or bad a person he has been to her, and to decide whether or not it's OK to forgive him. We can talk all we want about whether this one infraction is a biiig deal or not, but like so many other things in life, every person needs to know what is "too much" or "not enough" for him/herself.

Having said that... I tend to believe in forgiveness and redemption, precisely because of the reasons EricaP points out: none of us is perfect. Without knowing any of you all personally I am entirely sure that your relationships are not 100% perfect, that there are iffy and problematic aspects, that there were bad moments and that there still may be other bad moments in store in the future, even if you feel like you're living an idyll right now.

The capacity to look at another human being who, yes, has hurt you, has done something wrong, and still see (if indeed it is there) goodness, something worthy of forgiveness, is important in a marriage... in fact, in any kind of relationship. And not only because you (we) may be at the other end of this diad, in need of forgiveness for having screwed up. (Who hasn't been, among you? Really?)

Perhaps every one of us just periodically remember situations in which we hurt others just to remind ourselves that we're not saints either.

So yes, I agree with Dan that marriages (also, friendships, business partnerships, research projects, and so on) are a sequence of accepted apologies with good moments in-between (including orgasms, in the case of marriages). And so, unless what we don't know about Heartbroken's husband is indeed bad, I probably would forgive him.

But that's me. Heartbroken is a different person, and she has knowledge I don't have about her husband and herself. It's up to her.
EricaP, as someone in a poly marriage, we use barriers for oral if they are in use for penetration. If the outside relationship is stable, they've been tested, and they use barriers with their other partners, we have gone barrier-free with a few other people.
@EricaP, by the way, I hope you don't feel too bothered by so many people apparently wanting to prove your life is a failure. I had thought it was only Hunter79 who obsessed about your impending doom, but there seem to be others.

Is that just because you shared your doubts and difficulties? Strange. Maybe someday the same people will chastise me for being too interested in Latvian. Or Mr Ven for knowing too much about literature. Or Kim in Portland, and Married in MA, for being disturbingly good people. Or seandr and catballou for flirting. Or...

All in all, as Seinfeld would say, you're the mistress of your own domain. You're the one living your life; if others don't get your choices, well, too bad for them.
@84 Mr. V
Yes, those are examples of fine heroism. Who among us humans wouldn't want to throttle Frank Churchill? I won't die defending my little hill but I will ask you to join me for coffee on a sunny terrace partway up from where Ms.Beauregarde resides. Perhaps I could demonstrate for you the dynamics of losing one's self in the sexual moment without regard for consequences (independent of gender pairing).
@mydriasis, running the risk of speaking for EricaP (who can certainly speak for herself without help), I'd say this is not what she tried to say. (At least, I don't think it would make sense, judging by the kinds of things she writes, that she would want to say what you're attributing to her.)

I don't think the point is condemning those who stand for themselves. I think the point is realizing we're all imperfect, and we all need forgiveness sometimes.

Note that this is some sort of yin-yang relationship (that little yin-yang symbol is quite meaningful). Standing for yourself and knowing when to leave; forgiving the errors of others and knowing when to stay; this is an art in which these two things are not in opposition -- you don't have to choose one OR the other. We should choose wisdom to see when we're dealing with a situation best solved by the former or by the latter solution.

I would never say that "the wife always has to do the forgiving." I don't think EricaP would either. We all forgive and are forgiven, depending on the situation. We forgive because we know we need forgiveness. As Giles said once in Buffy the Vampire Slayer, we don't seek forgiveness because we deserve it, we seek it because we need it. And this need humbles us.
@91, actually that is an interesting point. I hadn't thought of that. I wonder what other people think about the guilt (or lack thereof) of the third partner, the other woman in the threesome: is she also guilty of rule breaking?

I suppose she is. Of course, she is less important to Heartbroken than her husband, since the two women didn't have any previous committed relationship.
@Mr. J - I hope you don't mean me! I like Erica, I think she's a nice person. I'm just excessively defensive of people who I feel have been treated badly (the LW in this case). We're not all Jesus*, and we're not all capable of forgiving everything that people do to us. If someone has been seriously hurt by someone else, I think our primary concern should be with the person who was wronged, and I think making that person feel bad for not being capable of sainthood-level forgiveness just adds to that hurt. I don't like that. Which is why I reacted strongly to Erica's comment.

@ankyl - I'm inclined to think that's not what she meant to say, but that's how it came off to me. (As I said in my post/above) And the LW's writer didn't seek forgiveness, did he?
@99 "the LW's husband didn't seek forgiveness, did he"
No, and I currently agree with you (see @88) that he's a jerk, though I won't agree that what he did was as bad as hitting her. My initial assertion that she could forgive him was based on thinking that he had apologized. My current guess is that he's telling her it's no big deal. If so, that makes him an asshole in my book.
@96 Best Slog come-on ever!

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