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1101 East Pike St. Suite 300, Seattle, WA 98122
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@103, why hasn't BBC ended the friendship? Because crazy people add excitement to the lives of stable, normal people. BBC will keep the friendship going as long as it's more fun than scary.
I prefer actually being able to keep how wrecked I am about being dumped to myself. I don't want to have any more emotional intimacy with the person who's leaving. I don't want them to see me cry, I especially don't want to be in public trying not to cry or say a lot of angry shit to them. Fuck that stuff. Being dumped by text is way better than never hearing from the person again, at least you know where you stand and it's two months, not two years.
What you are doing is going to hurt the other person -- break it well and they start healing right then, break it badly and the wound continues to bleed.
Just my 2 cents ...
An often-overlooked facet of trying to send someone an emotional text message is that people routinely open text messages in public places or while socializing. I'd much rather my dumper see me sad than a bunch of people at a party or at work. Unless you are currently engaged in conversation, you have no idea what situation your break-up-text is going to reach them in. Totally inconsiderate.
Every person/case is unique, but I have a friend who seems to routinely get cheated on. It's pretty obvious from a distance that even though he's a really nice guy, that he's too wrapped up in himself and too insecure, which creates a situation where partners simply don't respect him enough to deal with him when there's a problem. Just an example of a personality that might instigate a unilateral power grab from people who might not normally go that way. This can exist in lesser degrees too. Just underlines the importance of listening and open communication.
For me, a face to face conversation would be the way to go. But I cannot presume to know what will work for you, or even my partner.
If you are ready to leave a relationship, you should be allowed to leave a relationship. You should not be held hostage to someone's idea of "what is classy, or fair". This thinking has led to millenia of domestic abuse and violence.
For me, a face to face conversation would be the way to go. But I cannot presume to know what will work for you, or even my partner.
Perhaps rather than stringing her gay friend along for selfish reasons, BBC is caught in this trap, and just needs to grow into more strength. Sometimes the kindest move feels like utter cruelty.
Re: BBC...Women in our culture are taught to "be nice", even to people who are interested in us when it is not mutual. The more the person wants us, the greater the presuer to "be kind", "let them down easy", etc. Yes it must be done, but it's very difficult, even when we know that both we and the other party will be better off in the long run.
Perhaps rather than stringing her gay friend along for selfish reasons, BBC is caught in this trap, and just needs to grow into more strength. Sometimes the kindest move feels like utter cruelty.
You ARE allowed to leave a relationship, any time, any way you want. No one is suggesting making a law against breaking up by text. You are ALLOWED to do it anyway you want.
And other people are ALLOWED to consider you a douchebag for doing it by text if that's what they think.
Some of us think that breaking up by text is an asshole move in most cases. None of us, so far as I can see, are advocating making it not allowable.
Some of those who think it is fine are upset that someone else might think they are a douchebag asshole for doing it and making the classic fallacious strawman that those others are saying it shouldn't be allowed.
Just as those of us who think it is a douchebag move to break up with someone by text have to accept that if we do get broken up with by text then that is that, so the people who want to break up by text have to accept that if other people think they are a douchebag asshole for text breaking up with someone that is that. Deal with it.
It's like the incorrect argument people criticize or boycott people or organizations for things they say by argue that these people are trying to infringe on their freedom on speech. No, they aren't saying you can't say what you want. They are saying there are consequences to that. Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from criticism or repercussions from your speech.
Being allowed to break up by text doesn't mean others aren't allowed to judge you on your actions.
But if you can text them, you can probably *call* them too. And if you've been going out for more than, say, a week? I'd say they deserve the courtesy of at least hearing your voice as you tell them you're dumping them.
Because if we let people think that texting your S.O. to break up with them is okay, somewhere out there, That Douche who thinks that breaking up with your girlfriend via Facebook will feel justified. And he should feel nothing but shame.
If the relationship was longer, I still say fine. You've probably had a million discussions by then about all the things that aren't working. Better to rip that band-aid off ASAP.
For the record, I have never dumped or been dumped by text, but I HAVE suffered through drawn-out break-ups that should have been a lot quicker for everyone's sake, especially for me, the dumpee.
Yes. I'm still on good to very good terms with most of the people I have dated seriously. Dan has made the point in the past that if you are thinking of getting serious with someone it is a red flag if they aren't on at least good speaking terms with some of their exs.
Sometimes a bad break up can't be helped, but when you make it bad by acting in a way that the other is going to see as douche behavior then that reflects badly on you and if a significant number of your relationships end with the other person thinking you are a douche then anyone thinking of dating you should be thinking twice.
And besides from that practical issue, if you thought enough to date someone for more than a few weeks then you should be concerned with them, their feelings, and what they think even if you are breaking up with them.
Anyone who considers someone's feelings unimportant just because they are no longer going to date them is, well... a douchebag.
Unless the break up was because the other person was being an asshole then decent people don't see breaking up as an excuse to just not care about the other person or their feelings any longer. If you cared enough to date them, and to fuck them, you should at least have the decency to be considerate of them if you end it.
Not every break up is a drama filled, hateful, angst driven fight. Most people don't break up because they hate the other person. Having concern for people in general is a sign of a decent person. Considering anyone you aren't fucking as irrelevant is the sign of an asshole.
A few ex's ago me and my live-in girlfriend were supposed to go to the state fair and it was getting late. She was on her computer and I asked her when we would be leaving. She said, "We're not working out and I want to break up." We got in a huge fight, almost had sex, then she locked herself in her bedroom to talk to some guy on the phone while I was left alone to do whatever.
I definitely preferred the IM breakup over the face-to-face one. It was easier on me and I presume easier on her. So yeah.. I guess my point is that I think the medium of the break-up is a lot less important than the manner in which it is carried out.
Texting isn't tweeting--there's no character limit--and while some people will compose such messages as "we r thru. gt yr thngz ih8u," there is no need to write like that in a text. I've sent and received plenty of articulate messages, using complete sentences with appropriate grammar and punctuation, some quite lengthy. As several people here have pointed out, texting may be the primary method of communication for some couples, in which case, using it to deliver a breakup message isn't necessarily as much a sign of disrespect. I can see the initiation of the breakup discussion occurring via text message, but I also don't think that that one message has to be the end of the discussion; the dumpee is within his rights to open a dialogue started by that message so the biggest jerk is one who texts a breakup message, then refuses to engage in subsequent discussion.
Certainly a face-to-face breakup doesn't guarantee a kinder message. It is entirely possible to imagine someone cruelly and imperiously dumping the other person in person.
The main thing is the content of the breakup message, and the dumper's willingness to follow through humanely. No, you don't *have* to care about the feelings of someone you no longer want to be involved with romantically, but it is that refusal to engage in dialogue which is inherent in any kind of written breakup, from the "Dear John" letter to the email to the text message that is the dick move, and anyone who has been the recipient of such a one-sided, unilateral breakup, has the right to feel resentment at being treated disrespectfully. (Breakup via instant messenger is more like a phone call. There is a back-and-forth allowed for, and yet you don't have to extricate yourself physically from the scene.)
Technology is always going to give people new and different options of how to conduct delicate interpersonal transactions. What really counts is how we conduct ourselves. Do you allow the dumpee to have dignity? Ultimately, that says a lot about the person, more than the delivery system chosen.
Wrong. I'm not advocating it because I believe people have a right to be assholes. Not only do I believe people have the right, I prefer when people who are assholes act like assholes so it is easier to know who is an asshole before having to spend time and energy getting to know them better before finding out.
I have known several assholes who I wasted time trying to get to know because they hid it well at first.
"Your hatred is palpable. "
That's not hatred. It's disdain. It's judgement for sure. But it's not hatred.
If you think that's hatred then you have lived a very privileged and blessed life because clearly you have never had to face real hatred yourself.
I don't hate people just for being assholes. I just prefer not to have anything to do with assholes, but that doesn't equate to hate.
I beg to differ. Used correctly, technology can enhance relationships. I live halfway around the globe from my family and closest friends, and I work insane hours hoping to return home in a couple years. I can't just call someone in the middle of the night and expect them to be available, and my schedule is erratic enough to preclude planned phone dates. Texting is a great way for us to sustain "actual human interaction" on a regular basis, and a brief 2 a.m. text message of "you still awake?" sometimes leads to a phone call (even better). Pathetic? Maybe. Uncommitted? Definitely not. Lucky you, that you don't have to depend on technology to enjoy your relationship(s). As for breaking-up by text, it seems rather tacky, but not villainous, unless the relationship is long and/or complicated.
Run. Unless you hope to be in a relationship with the future chairperson for AA. I spent 18 years living with an alcoholic and the "blame the booze for my actions" is DEEPLY embedded in their psyche.
Oh, and if they dry out someday: guess what? the behavior persists.
T.
When I finally realized that I had been emotionnally abused all along my marriage, I asked for support in a women's shelter, not to give into the same trap in the future, and they made that exact point : never get involved with someone not on speaking terms with any ex. It's a huge red flag.
When I met him, that POS of husband told me many intimate things about his ex, including that he had dumped her two years earlier because he felt she wanted an abusive husband, like her father was with her stepford mother - but I never met her, nor any friends of hers ; I only ever knew her first name. Now I wish I had taken the time to investigate that, before committing to the relationship ; I would probably have found out that *he* had been the actual dumpee, and the reason had been *his* abusive tendencies.
At the time of the women's shelter, I met my current on- and off- lover, who was totally friendly with his ex whom, he told me, had dumped him two years previously, because she felt he was not around enough to make it work ; he was still sad over it. At the time she was still coming to his birthday, and to his friends' gatherings ; though I was asked about it by them, I never did put my foot down to exclude her from their circle. I never felt threatened by her, nor by his respect for her. And he has, ever since, shown himself to be a very decent and considerate man (and an amazing lover, too), totally into me.
He told her to come over when she was sick and not feeling like sex because he was into her company, then later he popped into her facebook chat and says he only has a sec but he wants to cut things off because he wasn't attracted to her when she was sick. She sent me the chat, it was cold shit.
I was glad Dan's example was about a girl doing this to a dude cause this douche had me wanting to apologize for my gender. Above commenters are right in that you don't want to be fucking anyone who would pull an immature dick move like that or who doesn't get that hot girls are less hot when they're sick. More for the rest of us. ;-)
@ BBC, agree with Dan. If you run in the same circles and will keep running into her, sit her down when she's sober and set some boundaries with her. She sounds nuts but my experience is nutty girls do better if you approach that with a little compassion - you may get her to set the boundaries herself and stick to them.
Um, sorry but I don't think that statement's really fair.
My closest gay friend in highschool lost his virginity around the same age I did (16), my closest lesbian friend also enjoyed several romantic and sexual relationships in highschool. I had several other gay friends whose first times were around the same age as would be typical for straight people. The friend I had in highschool who got the most play was actually a gay guy. My closest friend is still a virgin (in her early 20s) and she's straight.
So while I'm sure it is harder for gay kids in highschool to get it on overall (especially in repressive places like America), I think the whole 'you're gay in a straight world so you're going to have to wait way longer' thing is going the way of the fax machine.
Which incidentally, is also a lame way to break up.
When I was a teenager my mom told me many times she would prefer if I were a lesbian because then she wouldn't have to worry about me getting pregnant.
This is ridiculous. The fact that people do this does not make it legitimate. If you're ending a relationship, the only *legitimate* way to do it is in person.
The difficulty is in finding someone to have a relationship, or even just sex, with when you are a gay teen. Even today, assuming that every kid in a particular high school who is gay is also out, you now have maybe 3 to 5 or so out of 100 who would be gay. So to make it nice and round, say there are 100 boys in a class and 100 girls. Each straight girl has about 95 or 96 straight boys to choose from and each straight boy about the same for straight girls to choose from.
Now out of those 200 people the gay boy has maybe 3 or 4 people to choose from. So even if they were all out in high school, which is unlikely, the options are very limited. What are the chances that out of the only 3 or 4 options that you are going to be interested in one of them enough to want to have sex with them?
Consider that the majority of other gay kids in the school most likely aren't going to be out, but be very closeted, there are often no real options.
That certainly was the case when I was in high school. I didn't find out about who was gay until many years after graduating. One of my closest friends was bi and I never knew it. I was very lucky that I knew someone out of school that I had known for a very, very long time, who was at least interested in trying, so I was able to have sex in high school. But that was lucky.
While there are more kids out today in high school it is far from a majority, so even today a gay kid in school has far, far fewer options than his or her straight classmates when it comes to opportunities for sex.
Also when I was in high school I can tell you that due to AIDS still being pretty much a death sentence, and AIDS education being virtually non existent, I am pretty sure I was more worried about the consequences of sex than most of my straight classmates. I don't know how blase kids are today about the risks of AIDS, but there are other things to worry about than either AIDS or pregnancy.
But the limited options factor comes into play not just with gay teens. I have a friend who is very tech savey. He has access to the internet, to grinder, has a car and can travel... but because he lives in a rural area his options are so limited that he has to travel two to three hours just for a date most of the time. Of the few gay people he knows close to him none of them interest him.
That's why gay people tend to be more likely to flee their little towns and head for the big city than their straight counterparts. Because our options are far more limited than straight peoples'. We have to go where we have the best chance of meeting people, and that means going where the gay people flock to.
I left my fairly small east coast town for San Francisco and it completely altered my idea of what my options were. In high school they were one hair away from being completely non-existent.
From the perspective of one of those doing the complaining, this seems exactly backwards to me. You had thought all along that there WAS something special here, and you are shocked to discover that the OTHER person apparently thinks that there wasn't something special here, that to them you are 100% disposable.
"Nope, she's a scumbag. Dumping-by-text proves it."
Well, it is pretty surprising to be tossed in the trash like a used kleenex, and if that's behavior that you yourself consider beyond the pale, it does make you rethink who this person is.
Okay, my bad for confusing texting with tweeting, with respect to the 140 character limit. A well-composed, thoughtful, caring text (if you actually do that; I had assumed most text messages are dashed off with little thought or nuance) goes a long way towards making it an acceptable form of at least initiating that discussion. I can see the point made by some here: in some ways it is better than springing it in person, because it gives the person time and privacy to consider your words and decide if they need further discussion (aka want to be subjected to further humiliation) as the dump-ee.
There is still the problem that texts can pop up at unexpected and embarrassing times. I still lean towards email or letter for that reason. Again, however, a terse, badly-worded email or letter might as well be a crappy text, in terms of communicating callousness. anneshirley @69 says it very well in the last sentence: kindness. This is someone you were physically intimate with, which I would hope in most cases involves developing a certain level of personal vulnerability. You have a responsibility to not treat them rough when they have their armor off for you.
Fortunate lays out a high school scenario wherein a straight girl (in a class of 200, equally divided between girls and boys) has "95 or 96 straight boys from which to choose. Would that it had been so easy--like pulling ripe fruit off a tree--for me when I was an ugly-duckling straight girl in high school. Fortunate's high-school experience was much better than mine.
Meanwhile in the discussion of responsibilities of dumper to dumpee, avast2006 takes some statements Dan made on behalf of the dumpee, and flips them around entirely.
Some of us want to be told in person; some of us resent coming out only to be dumped. Some argue that a text could come at any time, and be seen by anyone, or that if the dumpee gets the text while he is at a party, he has to pull himself together during the party, when he'd rather fall apart; some of us have had the experience of being dumped in some public place--in person--and having to hold himself together under the gaze of a lot of strangers.
The reality is that breakups are hard, for both parties (unless the dumper is an incredibly callous jerk). It doesn't matter where or through what medium, if the person getting dumped didn't want that relationship to end (and by "relationship," I mean anything from FWB who've been fucking for a year, to a two-week, intense romantic entanglment, to a 35-year marriage), it's an unhappy event.
And another reality is that gay or straight, for lots of reasons, most teens are not having as much sex as it might seem from hysterical media stories or the popular music or movies.
Perhaps. I in no way am trying to say that every straight teen has the pick of anyone they want and any of them can get laid when they want.
But in the big picture the odds are so much in favor for the straight teen as opposed to the gay. Because there are also some gay teens who would fit the "ugly duckling" category on top of it. But at least there is Potential pool that is significantly higher.
Of course there are some straight kids who, even if they are good looking and popular, just never manage to hook up in high school. I definitly recognize that I was lucky. But that's what it was, luck. I also know I was not having anywhere near the amount of sex as my friends were. And even though I had sex as a teen I couldn't really actually date even though I would have liked to.
"And another reality is that gay or straight, for lots of reasons, most teens are not having as much sex as it might seem from hysterical media stories or the popular music or movies."
Indeed. And it seems the most significant factor is sex education. In regions with more comprehensive and inclusive sex education kids not only don't end up getting pregnant or catching an STI as frequently, but kids simply put off having sex longer.
If you want to make sure your area has the highest possible incidents of teen sex, along with all the worst possible scenarios that can potentially go along with that, make sure they get abstinence only sex education.
Looking around at my almost-eighteen-year-old daughter's friends, that dynamic seems to hold.
Not sure if SMS will read all these comments he's generated with his letter, but if I could I would tell him to ignore the texting issue, and focus on the fact that she dumped him during the convenient short amount of time she was out of town. If he were to say, well maybe some new stressor came up while she was away, then I would say that people who are mutually invested in a relationship, even at 2 months, tend to lean on their partners during times of stress and loss. It is possible that she really does have too much on her plate right now to handle a relationship. But signs indicate that she didn't feel connected enough to SMS to see him as a support during this difficult time, and she certainly did not think that the relationship was important enough to discuss after she came back from a week-long trip. Bottom line, whatever she is going through right now, SMS is not a priority for this woman, and as a dumpee, that is all that he needs to know.
Not sure if SMS will read all these comments he's generated with his letter, but if I could I would tell him to ignore the texting issue, and focus on the fact that she dumped him during the convenient short amount of time she was out of town. If he were to say, well maybe some new stressor came up while she was away, then I would say that people who are mutually invested in a relationship, even at 2 months, tend to lean on their partners during times of stress and loss. It is possible that she really does have too much on her plate right now to handle a relationship. But signs indicate that she didn't feel connected enough to SMS to see him as a support during this difficult time, and she certainly did not think that the relationship was important enough to discuss after she came back from a week-long trip. Bottom line, whatever she is going through right now, SMS is not a priority for this woman, and as a dumpee, that is all that he needs to know.
Thinking of calling me? Stop.
Thinking of visiting me? Stop.
Thinking of a future with me? Stop.
OMG WTF BBC :o
Why? Because 99% of text messages get delivered.
To be clear, I wasn't saying it was untrue in your case, simply that it in my opinion it was misleading in suggesting that it's a current comment on gay teen life today (from what I've seen).
@ Fortunate
Yes, I am aware that the proportion of gay kids to straight kids is skewed, but that's true in big cities as well. I live in a major city and the lesbians I know lament how small their pool to choose from is. In my experience they often tend to respond by being less selective (similar to how it's common for women to be a little more selective than men - NOT UNIVERSAL, JUST COMMON).
Being in high school, having the female friends of the guy you're trying to discreetly befriend come over, where you're sitting at intermission, and tell you that sorry he wants you to know that he's not interested and so please stop hanging up with us you're not welcome anymore.
And then, hearing them tell you that, on their way, they have talked first to another female friend of yours, who has never tried to befriend their clique, and who is now standing next corridor, waiting for you if you're in any need of friendship.
I never hanged up with any of them ever - including the designated go-to friend.
I'd take breakup by text any day over a shitty face-to-face, so-called considerate, breakup.
I recently broke things off with someone who had done nothing wrong to deserve it. I went to her house and broke the news in a contextually appropriate moment. It was EXTREMELY difficult to do and she was worth the respect of telling her to her face.
I recently broke things off with someone who did nothing wrong to deserve it. I went to her place and broke the news at a contextually appropriate moment. It was EXTREMELY hard and she deserved to be told to her face rather than lobbed a breakup from the safety of my apartment.
It's kinda tacky, except in special cases. I think SMS's gf may reasonably have been one of those special cases, however, given that she was dealing with serious personal stuff and wasn't in physical proximity anyways.
But, as a general rule, I agree that dumping by text in most cases kind of sends a message of "you're not important enough for me to break up with in person"... which is a kind of tacky thing to do after anything more than about 3 or 4 dates.
Your comment has me thinking in another direction. We talk about polyamourous relationships in terms of either their working or, if they don't work, we assume they didn't work because they were poly when monogamy is the norm. But what about breaking up with several people at once? I should think it comparatively easy for one person to break up with the 2 people s/he has been having sex with, but how do 2 people break up with their 3rd? There has to be coalition building, which must feel like back stabbing.
As usual, Dan hit it perfectly. Getting dumped sucks, no matter how the person does it. There is no good way to get dumped.
Involving the other friend who supposedly never dealt with them before is the big clue. With one evil chess move they deprived you of pretty much everybody. If the girl waiting in the other corridor actually was your friend, I hope you at went to her for the benefit of a "WTF?" corroboration.
Likewise, I hope you cross-checked the story with the boy. If he actually orchestrated that, it was totally lame, and you were well rid of him. But it's possible the boy had no idea, and the girls went behind his back. Maybe one of the in-crowd girls had set her cap for him herself, and this was their way of taking out the competition, or maybe it was just using the boy as a tool in a mean-girl assassination.
Bingo.
I don't know your ex, but I know that I thought about leaving my ex for several years before I did so, and while I can't speak for your ex and his motivations or feelings, I can say that it's probable that those smiles and kisses were genuine and truly meant. One of the reasons that I didn't leave when I first identified my unhappiness was because it wasn't a total, all-consuming unhappiness, and I hoped that we could somehow get back to where we once were. I still loved--and still, to this day love--many things about my ex, and expressions of love I made during those years were real. The feelings behind them weren't enough to keep me (either strong enough or frequent enough), but neither were they elaborately staged lies intended to mislead him. They were honest expressions of affection I still felt.
It's hard to stay with someone for years if you feel nothing at all for him (unless maybe you are hoping for an inheritance or an insurance benefit); I would choose to interpret his actions during those two years as non-maliciously as possible.
In any case, I wish you peace.
I was surprised later in life to discover how many people in my class were gay--and it was not any of the ones I was messing around with.
As to parental concern, I cannot say, I never thought to ask my mom what she knew or didn't know about those years. But I know my she freaked out if I closed my door with a girl in the room, but a guy could spend the night without any notice.
They were chickens, all of them, playing tough, devising pranks that I was the only one to have the guts to go though - the quiet kid on the side is usually more brave that the bigmouths - but reduced to jittery messes the second the school supervisor wanted a word with them. I don't know what became of them ; ordinary people, I guess.
I don't think it was a power clique ; just stupid, immature, cowering people, thinking they were doing the right thing.
I found out later that the guy was homosexual, and he was only out to the girls who had come to tell me to get lost. My interest had made him uncomfortable ; so his female friends had come to his rescue.
Oh, and his daddy was rich and he was always covered in designer clothes... that I thought foolish. At those time and place, there was no way he could have been out ; it was unheard of, he would have been seen as an alien by the rest of the class (but not attacked). I had no gaydar at the time - I never had met anyone out - and they were chickens.
High school includes only 10th to 12th grades ; there are no cheerleaders, no school jacket, no sport competition with other schools, no school motto, no elective contests like homecoming king and queen, no position of power and school-wide recognition to be had by students. It's not built as a competitive mini-society, but as a learning place, where everyone is equal, bad student and good student.
The mean girls may go around with their nose up at anyone ; they won't have many friends that way, that's all. Congeniality is the thing, if you want to have many friends ; as for being popular, you can only be so inside your own "class" (a group of thirty-five people who attend all the lectures together, the whole year). If you're too mean you'll be avoided.
Of course the boyfriend/girlfriend thing gives rise to both healthy and unhealthy private competition - but bad behavior cannot result in school-wide recognition, it only leads to localized fallouts.
I think all SMS is looking for is a way to stop liking this girl. He doesn't seem interested in demonizing her beyond the tackiness of the text-message move. I could be wrong, but that's what I go from the short and vague letter.
I think prom is a very American phenom.
I had one (I'm Canadian) but our highschool culture isn't quite like yours - it's kind of half and half between American and Euro. For example, our highschool had cheerleaders (I was one) but that was not at all a big deal at my school. And I was not 'cool' because of it, by any stretch.
I have a friend that's from the States and sometimes he makes references to the highschool culture there and I am in awe that it's so Archie-Comic-esque.
Academic achievement awards - a long time ago, (my mother's generation, she's now 70), there was the "prices ceremony" were the best students were given "prices", that is, books that related to the subjects in which they were 1st, 2nd and 3rd ; parents would come. When I was a student myself, there were no "prices" anymore. Now in my high school they try to give an honorific award (a medal and a diploma) to the students who have done good work for the community or who have had very good grades ; it's at the very end of the year, not on the school grounds, and this year most of the recipients didn't even show up (they hadn't be told beforehand who had won the awards). Someone vying for this honorific title would be considered, by students and teachers alike, to be a complete and utter moron.
Besides, the results cannot be compared on a whole grade. For instance in 12th grade there are about 10 different "classes" (groups of students) in my high school, and even if the best student of each class can be mathematically determined, there is no "best of the 12th grade".
Honor societies - no. What for ? Students are not vying for funds to go to college. College is almost free (maybe 200E a year); poor students with good grades are given a stipend by the State to be able to eat and to pay their rooms, as long as the grades stay good.
Proms - no. In some high schools, there is the "high school feast", a dancing evening in a nearby hall once a year, for all students. There is a special event for 12th graders in parts of France : they celebrate a day of carnival inside the high school, 100 days before the final exam ; on this occasion they come in costumes and some light pranks are tolerated, like disturbing the lectures of the 11th and 10th grades. Around Paris there is no 12th-grade specific event ; there is a carnival day each year, all students can wear costums and the best costumes are elected, no lectures are disturbed.
Science fairs with winners - no. There is a yearly France-wide science fair, a few high schools compete by sending teams ; the winners give honor to their high school but they are not more popular as a result ; usually it's the science club that gets all the credit, and that attracts more geeks as a result.
Special interest clubs - yes. Science club, photo club, chess club, news club can exist, depending on the dynamism of the students. No language clubs. In clubs, there are no president, treasurer and all that ; everyone is equal. The money collected from giving parents is redistributed by a high-school-wide treasurer, according to needs, judged by submitted projects.
Sports played within the school - you mean parents coming outside school hours to see their children compete against one another ? No.
There is a sport club outside school hours but on school grounds, they train and compete against other sport clubs, only the parents of the club members go and watch the competitions. Once a year the sport teachers will tell the teachers assembly that the students as a team, or some students as individuals have won in this place, this place and that place this year, and it's been a good year. There is no school-wide weekly broadcast of the results.
Tell you what, an example to understand the French high school attitude : this year, one of my students was the junior France champion of some sport(I'm not telling which one). I was told this in confidence, by the main teacher of his class, as the reason why this student would sometimes be missing - it was because of his trainings for his competition days. It was not expected from this student to go brag around about his achievements. His close friends knew, his classmates didn't have to know, because of his privacy, his right to be a normal student on the high school grounds, to lead an anonymous school life.
Oh, and there is no yearbook. Each year a picture of each class is taken, and students can buy it, if they want to have a reminder of their classmates. No school-wide picture.
Oh, and of course no graduation ceremony ! No valedictorian, no speeches, and of course no prayers.
There is a final exam (a week-long of tests, France-wide ; it begins tomorrow), some days after the end you come and get your results, and then it's off to University, good luck, it's been nice to have you as a student - or, alas you failed, well you'll spend another year with us then, and don't worry this time you'll pass ! And if you fail again... bye-bye, you're on your own now.
If you want more details, just ask.
Dan is wrong again here: Text dumping is NOT appropriate. Even if you are just changing hookers the dumpee of an intimate relationship deserves more than a text. Maybe there are exceptions but not many. Break ups of a weekly glory hole fuck in the public restroom might only require a text? I am not the expert. But if you have actually laid down with someone and exchanged spooj and spit and in addition actually had a two-way interaction like a personal conversation with that person then a break up deserves a two way interaction. If you have done the fluid exchange multiple times and/or exchanged deep expressions of affection then it should be a PERSONAL FACE TO FACE interaction. Grow up people.
I have no particular insight into the U.S. highschool experience other than having been a highschool student 35 years ago and knowing highschool students now. Obviously generalities about the way things are done here are non-productive because there's so much variation between parts of the country, size of the schools, funding for the schools. The national news is likely to get examples of how particular policies fail, not the instances in which they succeed.
The usual reason given for so much extra-curricular competition in the U.S. schools is to give every student an area to succeed. Maybe one student isn't great at math, but he gets the admiration of his classmates and teachers by being in the school play. Another might be a terrific athlete while not as good at creative writing. The idea is that the schools foster all sorts of talents and give the students a chance to try a lot of things while finding themselves.
The advantage to a larger school and one where you have different classmates for each subject is again supposed to be one where you find your niche. If you don't find friends in one class, you'll find them in another.
You've given me something to think about. Again, I'm not advocating for one system over another, but you have got me reexamining my assumptions. Thanks.
I used to think dumping by text was classless, but I'm rethinking the whole thing. Allowing someone to save face is much kinder. Spot on, Dan.
Dumping someone in public is also classless, duh.
You meet at their place*, you tell them how you feel, you tell them you're sorry things didn't work out (assuming you are) and then from there it's about their comfort zone. Do they want you to stay for a while and talk about it it? Do they want you to just leave so they can be alone? You leave it up to them.
It's not fucking rocket science, people.
*In case anyone's wondering, the reason you meet at their place is because no one wants to cry on public transit or in their car or etc. It's embarassing re: the public place comment. Meeting at their place means they have as much privacy as they want. They can ask you to leave as soon as you tell them for maximum "face saving".
I think in LTRs there's no such thing as being embarassed in front of your S/O even if they're technically as of that second not your S/O anymore. So the whole 'saving face' thing seems more for short term relationships than LTRs. I've never dated someone short-term so I can't really speak to that desire.
That's actually good thinking. The system where you have all lessons with the same group of classmates all year long, or even several years in a row, is not so nice if you have the misfortune to be chosen as the bullying victim of the class. I speak from experience.
If you have reason to fear for your safety, even breaking up via text would be ok.
But most people who break up don't have to fear their SO. It just didn't work out. And in that case, you should show your almost-ex SO some consideration and respect.
So confused where you're getting this from. I never called anything a 'pussy' move? Do you have my confused with someone else?
As 185 mentioned, we're all talkling about normal breakups (no abusive partner, no horrible circumstances, just typical 'this isn't working stuff') we've all kind of agreed that in extreme situations all bets are off.
I was dating someone for a few months and we texted constantly. Long texts, full sentences, proper grammar etc. Other than the sex it was one of the bright spots in the relationship. When I was ready to breakup (no horrible reason, just basic incompatibility), we were texting and I was asked, "is something wrong?". I responded in the affirmative and suggested we meet to talk. Then I'm asked if I'm breaking up. I say let's meet, the question is pressed further and I finally agree (breaking up) "it looks that way."
We do meet a week later, talk for three hrs but the end result is the same.
But since then I've come to learn, that among all parties in the know (friends), I'm the "asshole who broke up over text.". "Dick move" and all that.
So fuck it. If you end a relationship w an insecure person, you're the asshole regardless of medium. Oh yeah almost forgot: over $1,000 was loaned to help out earlier - emailed inquiring about it several weeks later, no response.
To SMS/LW1 - Ah, these changing times. In general, I feel that huge emotional declarations are better F2F whenever possible. It denotes respect for the other person involved. But that can be affected by the way you communicate throughout the relationship, extenuating circumstances, length of how long you're together & extenuating circumstances. Definitely that last one applies - a death in the family can be crushing, & you don't mention what these other issues of hers are, but maybe dealing with a relationship - even a fun one, with good chemistry - was just too much for her to deal with, right now. As long as she wasn't outright rude, try to take Dan's advice & take the high road. You're broken up with, either way, but how you handle it speaks tons about you, you know?
Try to forgive her, because *you* will feel better when you let it go.
I had a LD BF of about 2 years break up with me over the phone once. At the time, I freaked out on him & said it was cold, etc - & it came out of nowhere, I was blindsided. Looking back, what was he gonna do, have me drive a few hours, dump me, then have me drive home crying? There really wasn't a great way to do it. We're friends now. I don't hold it against him.
As someone who's been the dump-er, as well as -ee, if it's anything even remotely serious (let's say, exclusive w/ each other for more than a coupla months), I prefer to have that talk in person. Even if it's hard. It's just classier.
But, if they are far away, &/or our *primary* mode of communication was Email, I guess a thought-out letter, with as little drama & as much regard as possible, would be okay.
I can't imagine breaking up w/ someone over text. But that's not how I talk to most of my friends, 'cause I'm older than..some of you. ;)
Erm, I think she's talking to 84 and 96? Neither of them are me....
It is interesting that she brought up the same thing that I did though about the crying in the car.
But crying in the car = bad. I still think the reasons my ex wanted to end it via phone were weasel-ly, but we're definitely better off apart in the long run, & IDK if it would have been any better F2F. The next time we broke up, we were local, & we did it F2F, & it stuck. & w/ the benefit of hindsight, might I add..thank goodness.
Thanks!
And I feel you, I've cried in sooo many embarassing places.
i have found that when advocating for queer kids down at the local primary school(5 - 13 years old) and they say 'but we don't have any out queer kids'... pointing out that a solid 50 children, of their school, will eventually come out, and need to be supported NOW for their future well-being... it goes a long way.
so, yeah... curious about that. can someone enlighten me?
Again, not American, but I've always heard the 1 in 10 stat as well. The one thing I learned in psych though is that despite popular perception - men are more likely to be homosexual than women. For some reason I'm remembering it as 10% of men and 5% of women?
All the best.
Auntie Griz
So the 10% figure might work out seemingly accurate for the gay kid who just wants to give blowjobs behind the gym. Not so good for the gay kid looking for a prom date.
When reanalyzing to eliminate sample biase in the 70's the percentage that was arrived at was closer to 4%.
The Kinsey Institute itself says that the 10% figure was adopted more for political reasons than as an accurate reporting of demographics.
If you look at the various studies since the range they come up with vary wildly from 2.3% to up to 6%. None since Kinsey come close to 10%. 4% or there around seems to be the most consistantly arrived at number.
Yeah, I've mentioned before - I've had sexual experiences with multiple women but consider myself straight. (Because I'm not sexually attracted to women)
Lots of women 'experiment' but ultimately have no interest in long term/serious/romantic relationships with women. I don't consider that to be 'bi' or 'queer' or anything. But I've given that speech before. I don't dig on the Kinsey scale.
In terms of my female friends the women who actually date women and actually consider themselves 'lesbians' are in a minority. Meanwhile I have many gay friends (if we're going down the anecdotal road)
All of it is tacky, from breaking up to sexting.
Thanks for explaining American highschool to me. I experienced it with my eyes wide open, trying to learn much more than trying to judge. I was very happy to be able to take choir classes during the day instead of after school hours, but I didn't manage to navigate high school society, nor to understand it. I hanged around with Black people, some White gothic girls, exchange students like me and Latinas (born outside of the States, not born there - those kept to their own company and were not approachable) - the not-on-top people.
I honestly don't understand what is wrong with people today. I can remember when dumping over the phone was still considered callous. Now that is positively caring.
I was in a long distance relationship that was working for me fine, because of my availability; but not working for him because of my unavailability. An SMS break up might have been disappointing, it would have given me an empty feeling. And I'd have known that I should make different plans for my next vacation.
Instead he insisted upon flying half way around the world, to see me for the "Holidays," at a time when I was so busy that it was taking weeks before I could find a moment to even return a call from my own mother. Yes, I told him it wasn't a good time for me. I told him that I'd come home late, leave early and be pretty much comatose for the few hours in between. But if he wanted to watch me sleep briefly each night, and make coffee while I was in the shower before a quick dash out the door each morning, I wasn't ready to forbid him the shallow pleasure.
Maybe he had a fantasy that under the gaze of his in person charisma, I'd go all gooey and admit that I loved him more than life, and agree to make the changes that would conform to his reasonable needs. But it didn't work that way. I was super stressed over the obligation to host him. He gave me the ultimatum at the airport when I picked him up, which I interpreted as a break up, because I don't take lovingly to manipulation no matter how hot, gorgeous, smart, funny; and worth travelling around the world for, a guy might have been. So we broke up on the spot. He tried to engage in drama, but I had no energy for it. The whole ordeal gave him a herpes outbreak, so we couldn't even have morose break up sex, while he slept in my bed for the next two weeks because he couldn't change his (Christmas) flight ticket or afford to stay in a decent hotel, and I didn't have the heart to send him from my tiny studio, to a flea bag hostel.
BTW I'm in yet another long distance relationship, going on 3 years. I've told my current bf this story. There have been no ultimatums and he hasn't tried to visit me when I'm working. But he does text several times a day. Why any normal person would put up with this? Thank goodness for sms.