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800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
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I remember a long time ago about a woman who was raped by her boyfriend, who tied her down (like they always did), and then proceeding to have anal with her, which she had told him repeatedly not to ever do. She was screaming, he didn't stop until after he came, then he saw all the blood and called an ambulance. Everyone kept telling her to forgive her boyfriend, because he felt so bad about what he did, but there was no excuse for him to keep going (she passed out from blood loss in the middle of it all)
Keeping something like that in mind, a guy being woken up mid-coitus, and then freaking out all the time whenever she touches him, why is he still with her then, if every time he's around her, he's afraid of her? Dan advised the tied-down woman to press charges against him, not to mention to DTMFA; if he feels so violated, why doesn't he do the same thing? We tell women all the time to leave their abusers and bring their rapists to court; why is this man doing nothing for what he clearly feels was a crime?
No matter what, the boyfriend needs to see a psychologist who deals with PTSD; where he's a shitbag or not, if he's still so fucked-up by the situation that he can't be around RAPIST, then he needs therapy, just like any other victim of any other insane, intense, and extraordinary situation. But is he a real victim of sexual assault? He may feel that way, but she did, after all, stop as soon as he told her to stop.
The saddest thing of all is that this relationship is destroyed because of truly unfortunate things. Oh, how we all have to be so wary about anything with sex nowadays. Before we know it, everything will be rape.
Sex zombies!!! Who knew??
Anyone else confused? Did Dan mis-gender the LW?
As an aside, I often have orgasms in my sleep. I attributed them to vivid dreams, but being a "sexsomniac" sounds a lot sexier. Thanks for the term! :D
I actually thought 2 sounded fake, in terms of being a little too pat on reverse the genders and what would you say. (I think consensus would be that it wasn't rape, she needed to understand he thought she was awake, but he needed to understand that she didn't remember anything leading up to waking up mid-act and couldn't just turn her feelings off.)
In this context the speculation about same sex couple is interesting, in that I think the distinction is less male/female than penetrator/penetratee, in terms of how violated we think it's "okay" to feel when you wake up having accidentally initiated sex when you thought you were dreaming about fleeing velociraptors with (insert fantasy person) while scrambling about a giant ice cream sundae, and your long-time partner and bedroom never came into it, the hell...? I can see most people happily deciding to go with it, and a few being too confused by the dream-to-reality shift to manage to get their emotions on board in the good way.
Past trauma could make it much worse--it's not rape if they're asleep seems to be a common abuser plan--but just not managing to figure out what the hell is going on before your emotions redlined at 'help help' also makes sense.
I actually thought 2 sounded fake, in terms of being a little too pat on reverse the genders and what would you say. (I think consensus would be that it wasn't rape, she needed to understand he thought she was awake, but he needed to understand that she didn't remember anything leading up to waking up mid-act and couldn't just turn her feelings off.)
In this context the speculation about same sex couple is interesting, in that I think the distinction is less male/female than penetrator/penetratee, in terms of how violated we think it's "okay" to feel when you wake up having accidentally initiated sex when you thought you were dreaming about fleeing velociraptors with (insert fantasy person) while scrambling about a giant ice cream sundae, and your long-time partner and bedroom never came into it, the hell...? I can see most people happily deciding to go with it, and a few being too confused by the dream-to-reality shift to manage to get their emotions on board in the good way.
Past trauma could make it much worse--it's not rape if they're asleep seems to be a common abuser plan--but just not managing to figure out what the hell is going on before your emotions redlined at 'help help' also makes sense.
I like being woken up by sex... by a person who is actually awake. I have a super good friend who is a sexsomniac. One time we were both sleeping on a futon during a conference and in his sleep he grabbed me and started putting his hand up the back of my shirt. He is a LOT bigger than I am and much stronger. And he was definitely asleep. And there is NO WAY he would ever do that awake. Just no. He's so not into me and never has been.
There is something very creepy and disconcerting about being on the recceiving end of sexsomia. It's just "not them" and they don't respond to normal cues.
Like it or not, we can't just turn our feelings off when it's convenient, just as SOS can't turn off her feelings even though she knows it's not her husband's fault. That doesn't necessarily make him a blaming, guilt-tripping POS.
There are certain people out there who think "If the vaginal juices are flowing, she must have wanted it." Dan here opines that "If the penis is turgid, he must have wanted it." I disagree.
It was a legitimately traumatizing experience, and RAPIST should be understanding and work out a way to know whether her bf actually wants sex or not.
I also second the suggestion about some sleep aids causing sleep movement disorders. My husband took ambien, and once got up, made, and ate a cheese sandwich in his sleep. The only part that worried me was his using a sharp knife to slice the cheese; but I couldn't wake him up and wasn't going to wrestle him for it. So I hovered anxiously until he was done. We had a conversation that seemed somewhat rational too, where I asked him to stop using the knife or at least let me slice the cheese and he kept assuring me that he'd do fine. It was just irrational enough at times that I could tell he wasn't awake. He had no memory of anything about the episode in the morning.
Second beds may be a good start, but may not solve the problem; I have heard of sexsomniacs getting up and going into other bedrooms. There may be some risks associated with a dose of sleeping pills, but these attacks are disturbing enough to her to make it worthwhile.
@27, what happened to you sounds awful! Your ex actually tried to shift the responsibility for his behavior onto you ("if you'd just control YOUR movements when we're both sound asleep, this wouldn't happen"), AND he implied that although it wouldn't be okay if his attacks were directed onto your children, doing it to YOU was just fine? ("I know the difference between a real victim and someone who should put up with it.") What an asshole. I hope he's addressed the problem by now.
But again, in this exceptional case, because the letter writer had every reason to believe the sex was consensual, s/he's not at fault.
Assuming that waking up was because of the sex act and not because of chafing from lack of lubrication, I would find it AWESOME to wake up to sex after pulling my husband onto me in my sleep.
Hell, I've loved it when he's just gotten the idea to do that on his own.
Unless a relationship is abusive such that one partner doesn't feel safe saying "no", in an established sexual relationship it is more typical to operate by "no means no". Whereas a newer relationship needs to operate by "yes means yes".
I think I'll show this to him so we can talk about medication the next time this happens. Thank you Dan for this article, it mean the world to me to see someone else struggling with the same issue. It's particularly worrisome for us, because we have a daughter and we can't let her curl up in bed with us like other families do when she has nightmares. We can never co sleep. So far I just go into her room instead of letting her sleep in ours, but we're considering a trundle bed if she has a lot of nightmares and crawls into our room when she gets older and can open the doors (she's only 2).
Violation is a matter of personal experience... Some people feel incredibly violated from "minor" sexual assault like groping, and others may not be that affected by rape. So, yes the boyfriend's feelings are legitimate and Dan brushes them off too easily. (Especially, if as others suggested, it might have been esp. traumatic if he had been abused in his sleep before, say as a child.)
That being said, in an active sexual relationship there exists a certain presumed consent. That's perhaps not the best term but if my boyfriend woke me up in the middle of the night for sex, I wouldn't immediately wonder if he was out of it and thus couldn't consent like I would if the sexsomniac was just a friend. Likewise, if I got drunk with my boyfriend I wouldn't worry that by sleeping with him I would be taking advantage of him. Because I would know that he would be okay with that when he was sober. In fact I think that many couples with a healthy sex life would not be affected by this vanilla-ish sort of sexsomnia (obviously the first LW's case, in which the sexsomnia is violent, is quite different), which supports my feeling that maybe the boyfriend has been abused before.
Is it rape? is not a terribly productive discussion. The boyfriend feels violated and deserves to process his experiences, and name them as he sees fit. But his partner did not do anything wrong. Not because s/he didn't intend to rape him; I genuinely think a lot of people don't know that it is wrong to have sex with someone who is blackout drunk, because they can't consent. S/he thought he was consenting, in sound mind enough to consent, and stopped when he revoked consent. So, s/he did nothing wrong, in my book.
Please bear in mind that I have to shorten letters—sometimes I have to edit them way down—to make 'em fit in the limited space. Some letters come in at 2K words (almost twice the length of the column itself), and I have to edit them down to 200 words. A lot of what gets edited out are the details that convinced me the letter wasn't fake.
Some fakes will inevitably make the column, and I don't lose sleep over that. Every question that makes the column is just a good hypothetical to every reader save one, right?
But I was convinced that LW #2's letter was real—and it was from a girl.
I also wonder how big their current bed is. A king sized bed and it is so large that it might give her piece of mind. But smaller beds cause more involuntary intimate contact which might be why this is happening.
We have two twin beds pushed together and we are aware when we cross the divide between them. It is the best of both worlds- lots of room for playtime and a private space for sleep.
You don't have much imagination then.
Males are humans, too. Like girls, they can and do feel violated by unwanted sexual action, even in an heterosexual setting, even with "their girl". Their brains don't totally shut down eveytime there's an opportunity for sex, you know. They still can experience thoughts !
Stupid expectations like yours shames males into role-playing being dumb sex-machines without feelings - to prove their straightness or their maleness to prejudiced people like you. And who then suffers from this stereotyping ? Both males and females !
Let males be free to feel how they do, and behave as they feel they should, without judging them in termes of gender or orientation !
It wouldn't be rape with the genders reversed either. Again, the sleeping person INITIATED the sex. If a woman were to start fondling and kissing her boyfriend in her sleep, and actively participated in the process of beginning sex, waking up in the middle of coitus does not change the fact that she was the one who started it.
Add in the fact that this is sex with the guy's girlfriend, presumably something that would delight him at any other time. His girlfriend had every reason to believe he just wanted a little, and she had no reason to think "Uh-oh, he might be sleepfucking, I had better check first." Since when is sleepfucking something that people are expected to be worried about -- especially with their established sexual partner?
Further on the point about it being his girlfriend, whom he would be delighted to fuck any other time of day: that ought to temper his reaction to this. Again, it's not like some stranger took advantage of him while he was passed out drunk. Evidently he likes sex with his girlfriend well enough that he even initiates it while asleep. A little extra sex with her should not be a traumatic event. For him to be that thoroughly squicked out by the idea that his girlfriend might have responded to his advances while asleep -- again, it's not like she was groping him with no provocation -- he has some issues of his own that he needs to work out.
(Frankly, from here it sounds like the two of them had recently had the "any liquor invalidates consent, period" argument, and he was punishing her by turning the tables.)
Dan is right: if he is going to make a huge fucking deal out of requiring her to make sure he isn't unconscious before accepting his advances, then she should do the same thing: make a huge fucking deal about it herself. I'm thinking maybe a glass of ice water and an air horn by the bed for that purpose.
He is entitled to his feelings. He is NOT entitled to take his feelings out on his girlfriend. She did nothing wrong.
If you're thinking that sounds ridiculous, that's because it is. The law is (or should be) that rape is sex without consent. Not forced sex, or uninitiated sex; simply unconsented sex. A sleeping person, much like a child, an animal, or a person too far under the influence of substances, is incapable of giving informed consent.
"Justice" in this case is that RAPIST's boyfriend prosecute. However, if they love each other and agree that this is a mere misunderstanding, then they can learn more about sexsomnia and work past the issue instead. Given that she did stop immediately and is concerned about his feelings, I think this is the best route.
Others have mentioned that I should be thrilled to wake up to my girlfriend bouncing on my dick. I probably would, depending on the circumstances. But that is beside the point here.
Ask any psychiatrist.
It's never wise to fool with brain chemistry if you don't know the implications.
Ask any psychiatrist.
It's never wise to fool with brain chemistry if you don't know the implications.
Make time and space for the best sort of together time while awake. Then retire to separate sleep spaces. You both will probably get better rest, and it reduces the chances of the unconscious assaults to zero. (I assume he doesn't get out of bed while asleep.)
Had this been an intentional assault, the reaction would have made perfect sense. But since this was an honest mistake, by someone he presumably trusts and wants to be with, he should dial it back and be able to accept that no harm was intended.
It is hard to see where this rises to the level of trauma without thinking he is searching for a scapegoat to lay a bunch of unprocessed and undeserving grief on his partner.
We live the life we choose. Why choose to be offended when there are other, more plausible options?
No prosecutor would take that case, because what happened wasn't rape by any legal definition. In order to prove rape, the state has to prove the victim made it clear the sexual touching was unwanted. Re-read the letter: he initiated sex; she had no reason to believe he was asleep.
But you have my curiosity peaked. How long would you sentence him? Prison?
So, you think she actually fits the legal, prosecutable definition of rape by accepting his advances? It would be reasonable and "just" for the law to jail her for failing to realize that he was asleep when he was the one who actively went after her sexually?
"If you're thinking that sounds ridiculous, that's because it is."
I concur. That is ridiculous. Not quite in the way you intended, though.
"Others have mentioned that I should be thrilled to wake up to my girlfriend bouncing on my dick."
The point here, from my position, is not that he simply should be happy about it. It's that he should take responsibility for his part in the interaction, in so far as she did nothing wrong. I've explained exactly how and why she did nothing wrong in detail in comment #52; no point in repeating it here.
Is the drunk girl your girlfriend who regularly initiates sex with you while sober and has regularly, while sober, enthusiastically consented to sex that you've initiated? If yes, fuck. If no, fuck off.
The good thing about the over the counter drugs is that they are not addictive. There is no withdrawal and there are very few, if any, side effects that are much less severe than the prescriptions. You are absolutely right, though. I completely forgot to mention that he should discuss this with his doctor. He should start with his primary care physician, but if the case is deemed to be out of the physician's abilities, the physician will recommend a psychiatrist. If this happens, you might want to talk to the psychiatrist about his or her views. For instance, do they have the same views as you on medicine? I, for instance, tend to only use medications when I have to and I will always go for the most natural way possible that is still effective. For instance, if his sexsomnia is caused by taking prescription sleep aids, he might look into other methods to help him sleep, such as drinking warmed milk *the heat warps the enzymes in the milk and causes them to make you drowsy*, chamomile tea, and meditation. I made a mistake and assumed everyone knew to talk to their doctor first about taking any kind of medication that can alter your body's natural habits, but I've been on sleep aids/psych medications for eleven years.
Sorry for the long post. I felt that all of this information was important.
If unconsented sex is rape based on the fact someone is sleeping, then the sexsomniac is being raped even as they do the raping. Ridiculous. Amnesia does not = lack of consent.
I have an exGF who is VERY sexual in her sleep, very responsive, and cuddly, and easily aroused for sex. She'll start the hand movements and gentle groping, and then when she wakes up to the kissing and very aroused partner will be all "oh my you're always waking me up for sex, what is that?" She totally refused to believe she is being sexual in her sleep at all... So I filmed her :-O She was very surprised how touchy feely she is while sleeping.
And sorry but NO waking up to sex in a bed where you went to sleep naked with your significant other and then when you asked them to stop and they did IS NOT RAPE. Seriously. There's something seriously fucked up about feeling raped under those conditions. Only a privileged fucking male could call that rape.
Instead the women are writing in. I would advise these women to sleep in a different room until their partners address the situation in all seriousness. Part of the solution will probably be an end to wake-up sex with these men. People with sexsomnia are not good candidates for middle-of-the-night wake-up sex.
I feel similarly about people who do not perform comparative blood alcohol tests on themselves and the person ripping their clothes off screaming "Take me now!" It's a bit much to ask them to figure, "Well wait, this is only consensual if I'm drunker than my partner. Should I take another shot?"
If the drunken sex initiator had been drugged against their will, and the recipient of the drunken advances had no knowledge of the drugging and assumed their fabulous personality was behind this very welcome development, then it's similar: Nonconsensual on the part of one person, but the second party, by any rational standard, couldn't know the other was in no state to consent.
Are we seriously going to start giving everyone math tests mid-coitus to make sure they're fully functioning mentally, like those no-drunk-dialing apps?
I had an ex who suffered from this, but I absolutely loved it. He was relieved I wasn't bothered by it (due to interrupted sleep - it never crossed our minds to equate it to rape), and it was just sort of an amusing thing that happened between us on occasion.
It never even occurred to me that it would bother some so much that it would be a life/relationship altering (or ending!) hardship.
Unless the sleep 'attacks' were really and truly dangerous I can't even imagine asking someone to go on such a drug...
It seems reasonable that Rapist's partner is upset by what happened. It's really weirder / more surreal than you might think to experience this when it's not welcome. However, that's not Rapist's fault. And more importantly they simply need to agree on some realistic means of prevention. In my case my partner was so resistant that his sleep behavior did start to feel like rape, but only because he refused to take responsibility, precautions and then blame-shifted and sulked about it. Ugh.
By the way, the clonazepam helped my ex. Separate beds in the same room did not.
I personally know how much of a negative effect those drugs can have on a person as it is something I've helped a friend through. Someone else shared their personal experience in the comments...it really can be extremely awful. I would think changing sleeping arrangements is more agreeable than altering someone's brain chemistry negatively and the resulting fallout.
If you want to use the melatonin burst as a way to ensure a good sleep hygene, then look into medications like Rosarum that prolong its activity without interfering with the production of the hormone naturally.
For many people this is not an issue, but when mental illness is in play, and insomnia WILL induce a manic psychosis, it's better to listen to a professional, and ours has said the risks can outweigh the benefits in this case. I differ to the expert.
FWIW, we have also found benadryl very effective, but only for brief periods before the body builds up a tolerance.
I also am a female who enjoys an extremely vibrant BDSM relationship with my boyfriend and he is also a sexomniac. He will regularly wake me up with his hands on my breasts, or between my legs, whispering really kinky stuff in my ear that he wants to do to me. He almost never remembers these incidents but I absolutely love them and count them as a really special and sexy part of our intimate life.
THAT BEING SAID I have also dated someone previously who claimed to be a sexomniac who was sexually and emotionally manipulative in our waking life which led to a lot of mistrust in our sex life and the possibility of unwarranted, spontaneous sex really freaked me out.
Not that you have to be abused in order for this to upset you, but have you looked into other areas of your relationship where you feel like power is (non-consentually) being taken away from you?
And, in general, figure out whether you guys are on terms of "yes means yes" or "no means no."
Avast, I'm sorry, I can't figure out how to quote you, but yes, I think this fits the legal definition of rape, at least in the US. I'm sure in court there would be heated debate about what constitutes "consent". I'm not saying it's an open-and-shut case. But men have been found guilty for misinterpreting signals. To me, the fact is that the man was asleep, and therefore incapable of giving consent. But ultimately a jury would have to decide.
I did say it would be "just" to put it to trial. But if you continued reading the next few sentences thereafter, I explained that I don't think this is the best resolution of this particular incident. What is "just" (a matter of the law) and what is "right" are not always the same. In this case, I think they should talk about it, and many other comments have offered various ideas for dealing with sexsomnia.
I find it amusing that you think the perpetrator has the right to decide whether she has done something wrong. When they two sit down to talk, it should begin with her heartfelt apology. And then hopefully onto a productive discussion on what to do about it in the future.
Didn't the LW already apologize? Isn't there a limit to how much apologizing she should have to do, particularly when you consider that she did absolutely nothing wrong? Seriously, based on the info in the letter, I don't know how she can possibly be portrayed as a villain. She responded to familiar sexual cues and engaged in sex in a way that they had done many times before, and when he woke up and wanted to stop, she stopped. No one is actually to blame for what happened. Instead of thinking about how you would feel if you woke up to find your girlfriend bouncing on your dick, how would you feel if you responded to your girlfriend's advances and were engaged in sex that she was to all appearances actively participating in and enjoying, but then it turned out she was asleep? Would you be branding yourself as a rapist who needed to atone? Or might you feel that you had made an honest mistake?
1. Re: seperate beds.
Cute! Very I Love Lucy. I feel like it'd be kind of a bummer to not fall asleep cuddling but I guess one could adjust.
2. Re: the second LW
Yeah y'all can add me to the pile of people saying that it's totally valid for the bf to feel violated (even if he intellectually knows it wasn't intentional/malicious). I'd hesistate to call it rape (and would say the same if the genders were reversed) but I don't think it's fair to just expect him to be okay with it right away.
"Did nothing she was aware was wrong at the time" and "Did nothing wrong" are two different things. I do take note she has apologized, and has even gone so far as to write Dan Savage asking for help in dealing with the situation.
You would support every word of Dan's advice, including blaming the victim and dumping him on his ass?
But I blame the sexsomniac for not taking his newly discovered medical condition more seriously. Maybe his "really weird" feeling about what happened will lead him to act, but according to the letter, his only response so far has been to withdraw from sex, rather than to talk to a therapist or doctor or even an online sex columnist.
Regardless of how the boyfriend feels, the fact is that there is a certain amount of implied consent in long-term romantic relationships; he initiated the sexual contact, she had every reason to logically conclude he was consenting to her behavior as he "was an active participant," and in the morning when he conveyed his "displeasure" (the sex didn't seem to stop midway, btw, for those who are claiming that), she took the "rapist" identity needlessly upon herself, and she has apologized and is seeking advice from a sex advice therapist, while her boyfriend "can't stomach [her] touching him."
What did she do that was wrong? Respond to her seemingly-awake boyfriend's sexual overtures and full participation. How does that fall into the category of "didn't think it was wrong at the time?"
I understand all about consent and consent given in an impaired state, but the events as she describes them don't suggest she could ever, in a zillion years, think he wasn't consenting.
Now, this isn't to say that he doesn't have a right to feel violated; of course he does. But to continue to be freaked out by her touch when he's awake, to blame her, to treat her as if she was a rapist, and he her victim when he is responsible for the mishap smacks of fucked-uppery and passive aggressive hostility.
No, he is not a victim (and the same conclusion would be reached if the sexes were reversed). If he wasn't looking for reasons and excuses to make her feel guilty and shame-ridden about something, so he could berate her, he would chalk the whole thing up to a bizarre and unsettling experience, and help to come up with a way of both of them understanding that each one is fully consenting to all future sex.
Even if they solve the problem in the short term, the new problem is going to be that the body always gets used to the dose and that dose is always going to have to go up to keep being effective.
The problem with upping the dose is that not only does *taking* benzodiazapines cause a lot of serious side effects, but *not* taking benzodiazapines causes serious side effects once your body is dependent- and it does not take long to become physically dependent (and yes, I mean while taking as instructed, and not abusing them).
Benzos are known for having the worst and longest withdrawal of anything out there. Try imagining everything you ever heard about heroin withdrawal, and it can go on for 1-3 years if you are really unlucky.
For more info, read up on wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzodiazep…
And if I were him, I'd feel violated, too. I don't think he's being selfish at all. The thought of waking up to someone already fucking me makes me extremely uncomfortable. I can't even imagine how I would feel with that image stuck in my head. There is no way I would just "get over it" after the other person was like "sorry." And my advice to them would be to take "nocturnal sex" off the table. No sex after one or both of them has already fallen asleep at night. If the other wakes up horny, they can wait until morning. With that rule in place, any attempts to initiate will be easy to identify as unconscious/unintentional.
Also? I think "flick his penis" should win an award for being the weirdest piece of fucking advice to ever appear in SL. Sounds like it came from one of those shitty magazines. "Flick your penis at her, right after dipping it in Nutella."
They are a tricky med, in fact most psychiatric meds are difficult, have side effect problems and withdrawal problems. But they aren't habit-forming in everyone and some people are in fact able to use them safely and effectively for their intended purpose. It's typically meant to be an interim acter before longer-term solutions take effect. In that capacity they can be very useful and make a big difference for people who are suffering.
Oh and by the way. Literally every complaint people have about benzos? Applies to alcohol too because they have near-identical mechanisms. Like literally... god... microns apart? Seriously. So while y'all continue to go on the horrors of benzodiazapines, I hope you also mention that no one should ever have a drink again.
Ambien would be a more appropriate drug, but it is also habit-forming. As one poster mentioned, one solution would be to mix them up. A medically better solution would be to only take any drug a few nights a week, leading to a lower rate of incidents, but any incidents at all may not be acceptable to these people.
In one year I will be licensed to prescribe psych drugs such as benzos and I would never prescribe even a low dose to be taken on an ongoing basis.
I feel as if someone needs to explore with the LW what will reduce her unhappiness with the situation. If it were me, it would be the sense of powerlessness. Something that could wake her husband up more quickly might make her feel more in control - for example, a loud alarm she can hit, or, if her husband is hairy, he can go to bed with a piece of tape that she can rip off to wake him up quickly and painfully, but not damagingly. The aversive conditioning might lead to cessation of the problem, as well. Just something I would try before subjecting someone to the potential for life-damaging addiction.
I wonder, about you people who spout black-and-white thinking like "having sex with your boyfriend who turns out to be asleep is just the same thing as having sex with children" - do you actually have relationships with real, non-damaged people who put up with that bullshit? Because if someone tried that on me he would have 24 hours to find a good therapist before I dumped his ass. Let him find someone who wants to have a long, penis-flicking conversation with the lights on before having sex.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.