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I feel a deep emotional bond and deep rooting of my love for my partner, but it just doesn't work the same way for me as I guess it does for others... But I think of him as family and as someone I'd die for (I don't mean that in a histrionic way, but rsther in a sense of him being, so to speak, the most beloved member of my tribe, aside from my child). But I guess it probably doesn't matter how one defines or describes it as long as he and I and our partners are happy.
I love dirty talk before and during sex. As a general rule, the dirtier, the better.
With one exception: I have a cunt (which you can talk about in exactly that term all you want); I am not one.
I like your simplified categorization. You seem to have succinctly covered all types of relationships. I especially like the distinction you made between fuck buddies and friends with benefits.
What does it mean? I'm more quirky, myself.
'I have a cunt (which you can talk about in exactly that term all you want); I am not one.'
I concur.
I wouldn't be surprised to learn that no woman on the planet finds jealousy sexy in a man, however tactfully he expresses it. The ways in which men and women relate to each other aren't always symmetrical.
a) how the jealousy is expressed. Nobody likes being pouted at, fought with, or otherwise disapproved of. On the other hand, if it is expressed as a renewed interest in the chase and a diamond, hey, win! (and there are far too many stories of manipulative women provoking a little strategic jealousy hoping for one or both of those precise outcomes.)
and
b) whether said jealousy is perceived as being fairly applied (i.e, a response to her gambit, and therefore an affirmation of her worth, as per above) or unfair and undeserved (i.e., she didn't think what she was doing was out of bounds and didn't like getting called on it).
Have either of you ever been in a situation in which you feared that someone you felt deeply connected to might abandon you for someone else? Or actually did abandon you for someone else? It occurred to me that some people (by luck or wisdom) probably never end up in that position, just like some people go through life without ever having their hearts broken by being dumped.
Anyway, much of what I've said is in response to the slight stink of "holier-than-thou" emanating from some of the poly posts in this thread. I actually believe it would be healthy for our culture to embrace poly as an option, maybe even the default option.
However, it's mostly a matter of culture, not biological destiny. To use an analogy with religion, there's strong evidence that humans are biologically prone to religious belief systems (e.g., the fact that religion of some form is nearly universal across cultures), but it's ridiculous to suggest that we have a genetic inclination toward any one religion. Likewise, it's obvious that humans are biologically driven by the need for sex, security, novelty/stimulation, self-esteem, and connections to others, but it's silly to suggest we are genetically predisposed to just one of the numerous relationship models that humans have dreamed up to meet those needs.
Admittedly I'm twenty five years or so out of practice at this topic, but I did have a girlfriend once who actually asked me, "So, you're not jealous? ...not even a little?" followed by a slightly deflated "...oh." when I said I wasn't.
a) I think you're right. In other words, jealousy in a man is unattractive when it comes across as insecurity, but attractive when he responds by rising to the challenge, which, depending on the woman in question, could be anything from kicking the other guy's ass at the big keg party down the by the river to being especially thoughtful and sweet and folding laundry and changing diapers etc.
b) Hmmm. Yes, few women tolerate jealousy when expressed as an attempt to control a behavior she feels she's entitled to (a lot of "nice guys", in contrast, will put up with this). And yet the scope of her entitlement will often expand with her attraction to the other guy, in which case she simultaneously validates and invalidates his jealous response. Tough spot for a fella to be in.
Again to bring up the difference between jealousy and posessiveness... jealousy usually isn't sexy, but posessiveness certainly can be.
I think that poly and mono relationships are equally valid and should be equally respected, and that they suit different people - or sometimes, different relationships.
What I was trying to convey (very badly, obviously!) is that poly feels natural to me because I am the person that I am. Whether it's a function of natural personality or upbringing (I tend to think it's probably both) it would be uncomfortable for me to live in a mono relationship which had no option (for me or my partner) of expanding from that point. I do not want to be anybody's one-and-only.
My upbringing was very traditionally feminine, and involved a great deal of emphasis on being aware of other people's emotional states, on 'keeping the peace,' on meeting other people's emotional needs at the expense of my own, and on emotional housekeeping for other people.
It actually hurts me - I feel an emotional pain and an emotional flinch - to see other people (or animals) in pain or need, and this has been much more pronounced and more difficult to switch off since having kids. I am very definitely over-sensitive in this regard.
In this sense, perhaps poly enables me to cope more easily, and without the therapy I presumably could do with for these issues (if they are issues). :P Probably I have poor boundaries or something (I don't know the psych-speak for it).
On the other hand, due to various unpleasant childhood experiences, I also hate feeling pressured or hassled *in any way* by adults in my personal life (partners, friends, family). I can take it from kids, of course, since they don't know any better. For example, GGG is a no-go for me: if I don't like something, I won't do it. On the other hand, I think it would be unreasonable of me to expect a partner to go without, simply because *I* won't do it: I'd rather they got that need/want met, I just don't intend to meet it myself unless I actually want to. (I also don't like the idea of them being GGG for me either: the idea of being 'serviced' is absolutely horrifying to me. If they don't like it, I'd prefer them not to do it.)
So there is a tension between the impulse - sometimes painful - to meet partners' needs, and an equally strong impulse that revolts against any form of pressure being inflicted on a personal level (of course work doesn't count). There is no need for a partner to pressure you if they have other partners to go to. And there is also no need for me to knock myself out trying to be 'there' for anyone all the time.
This is what I was trying to get at when I spoke about taking time for myself: while neither of my partners has ever hassled me for attention when I need that time, when there was only one and I was his only partner, I would have a background anxiety that he might be lonely but just not want to interrupt. On a purely selfish basis, this meant that my alone time was not as quality as it might have been. While of course there were times that he was away with another partner when I would have preferred him to be with me, the benefits outweighed the costs. And besides, when another person is involved, of course you have to take their needs into consideration as well.
What I'm trying to say here is that poly is a very natural and comfortable way of living for me, not because I am more evolved than other people, but because of the specific personality and issues that I have. It probably saves a bomb on anti-anxiety meds. :P
It's like anything: mono isn't for everyone, nor is poly sometimes. The real issue at play when you think about it is the courage of your own hard-earned convictions, desires and being able to honestly convey that. That's to be applauded. The truth may not always go down smooth at first (depending on what the subject is), but at the end of the day, that's the best outcome: just being able to be who you are and to be honest with yourself. After that, it extends itself naturally to everyone else by association, I think..
I relate to your squeamishness about being pressured by people, or, expectations, Megaera.
You know what it is? At the end of the day, no matter what kind of relationship anyone has with anyone else, or others: monogamous, polyamorous, nonexistent -- people are going to do what they want either way. Being as upfront and honest as you can is all anyone can do. The truth may hurt at first, but it ultimately heals.
That, and it's not as if people only have feelings for, or, have fallen for, only person in their lifetime.. Relationships sometimes continue somehow, sometimes they don't.
I think if anything, being as good friends with who you're boinking is the best policy. That way, you can comfortably address stuff to and fro without the risk of feeling judged or condemned.
It's like anything: communicate what is as honestly as you can, with respect and faith in the the truth being the best way to go.
Have a good day, everyone. :Peace.
"Have either of you ever been in a situation in which you feared that someone you felt deeply connected to might abandon you for someone else? Or actually did abandon you for someone else? It occurred to me that some people (by luck or wisdom) probably never end up in that position, just like some people go through life without ever having their hearts broken by being dumped."
Only one time. I was a teenager and it was my first serious relationship. He told me he was falling in love with someone else and my heart almost exploded from pain, since I'd been told my whole life that monogamy was IT. But then he quickly said, "But I'm still in love with you too." My fear vanished immediately. I knew he'd break it off with me only if our own relationship caused problems, NOT because of another, and it's impossible to be jealous when I believe the only reason I'd be dumped was of because of our own issues and not because of another person. And then I fell in love with his other girlfriend as well. We were happy as clams. (Where did that phrase even come from? lol)
Ever since, I know I will not be left unless I would have been left on my own merits (or lack thereof), because I "let" my partners be with others too, so there won't ever be a me vs. them choice; my partners aren't the type to accept monogamous people who'd have them abandon others. I also do not fear being left in general. I've suffered an inordinate amount (for the first world) in my life and don't fear much anymore.
Also, I was indeed once left for another. But the thing is that I don't want someone to stay with me if their connection to me is so tenuous; I do not want someone to work to get past wanting to go elsewhere; I want to be left if our relationship is not what they want anymore. It's painful, but it's right.
"He told me he was falling in love with someone else and my heart almost exploded from pain, since I'd been told my whole life that monogamy was IT. But then he quickly said, "But I'm still in love with you too." My fear vanished immediately."
There had to have been a part of you that initially thought he was full of shit, when he said that. Love is fucked-up sometimes. Even so, people are complicated, and I do believe it is possible to be in love with someone, and yet need more physically, etc. than the one relationship can offer.
It all depends on how the subject is broached and what the circumstances are leading up to that chat there.
It took me so long to accept the dynamics of being gay, what the relationship parameters are.. I used to think that one person was the be all-end all, and I would unfortunately sometimes suffocate them without ever intending to. From what I've experienced, being in love is about sharing some sort of inexplicably-great connection where you just somehow get someone else, and you don't ultimately wish to change them, or pressure them into being someone they're not. Having a solid strain of friendship at the core of it all makes it all that much better.
To quote you, if I may, Hyacinth:
"...it's impossible to be jealous when I believe the only reason I'd be dumped was of because of our own issues and not because of another person."
I agree. It's also easier to accept somehow when you know that things are what they are, and that whoever you were with cared enough to tell you in a way that was ultimately kind, by just saying what they felt honestly, and hoping for the best in that the truth will help everyone involved at the end of the day.
That, and:
"And then I fell in love with his other girlfriend as well. We were happy as clams. (Where did that phrase even come from? lol)"
Good on you, girlfriend! :-D At least you recover well! :-)
@ 224, Megaera, to quote you kindly:
"My upbringing was very traditionally feminine, and involved a great deal of emphasis on being aware of other people's emotional states, on 'keeping the peace,' on meeting other people's emotional needs at the expense of my own, and on emotional housekeeping for other people.
It actually hurts me - I feel an emotional pain and an emotional flinch - to see other people (or animals) in pain or need, and this has been much more pronounced and more difficult to switch off since having kids. I am very definitely over-sensitive in this regard.
In this sense, perhaps poly enables me to cope more easily, and without the therapy I presumably could do with for these issues (if they are issues). :P Probably I have poor boundaries or something (I don't know the psych-speak for it)."
Classic empath personality. I have that about me, too. You just pick up on what's going on around you.. Reading people's moods and sometimes even picking up on some thoughts and moods you'd almost just as soon not even know about (intuitive abilities).
It can be a good thing, too, though. It of course also makes you more aware of the big wide world that is out there -- the choices and opportunities.
I just hope the 'keeping the peace' thing doesn't hinder you insomuch as you feel that you can't speak up, or, assert yourself when you really need to. I do know what you mean about the boundary thing, wondering aloud sometimes whether or not you can tune out some of the excess impressions you naturally get from other people, oftentimes without even consciously realizing that you are..
I know how tough it is to be sensitive like that. I have that too to some degree. It's an exercise to remind yourself what is your feelings and what is other people's.. Sometimes, when you're soaking up everything around you, it all seems like one big feeling..
I hope you don't suffer that as much as you used to, Mega. It gets better navigating through that, the longer you live and stick around. Thanks for reading. Cheers.
@202 avast2006
Thanks. I couldn't understand why a man would want to jealous partner. But in the ways you describe (her expressing desire for you, her acknowledgement of your sexuality, her affirming your value to her as a partner), these all sound positive and sexy.
Having been with a jealous partner, I can say it was anything but positive and sexy. Maybe men and women express their jealous differently? Or maybe it's the volume, intensity and intent that men use. It was less 'I will fight you' than 'I will crush you'. Not good. Too much for me.
'I will fight FOR you' than 'I will crush you'.
@ 195, seandr:
"But, imagine you come home from a party with your woman, and she gives you that look of detached amusement that says, unconvincingly, that she couldn't care less, and says "That whatshername sure spent a lot time talking to you tonight. Seemed to be hanging on your every word. You know those tits are fake, right?"
The vulnerability expressed, the instinctive dissing of her rival, the implicit acknowledgement of your sexuality as a male, the possibility raised that she'll compete for you on those terms. Sexy."
Well said! Indeed: still conveying the vulnerability that is at the heart of jealousy, possessiveness, etc., but making light of it and not taking it to destructive, dark, ugly places.
I was abandoned in a pretty cruel way by someone I really loved, so maybe it's a temperament type thing... not sure. It was devastating when it happened. On the other hand, I'd also been abandoned by family members before then, so it was only a partially new sensation, and maybe I'm mildly inured to fear of that sort of thing... who knows.
I'm not usually one for choosing to abandon anyone. It's only when (for whatever extenuating circumstances at the time) you're not actually communicating to one another clearly enough that the trouble ensues. It's awesome to share a genuinely-great bond with someone else. It only goes to crap when people lose touch with one another, if not themselves..
Not always, but more often than not, if any sort abandonment happens, it's because there is a breakdown in the connection that can't seem to be surmounted, and people retreat to their own corners, lick their wounds and go on from there.
Sometimes though, people wake up and begin to figure out that *maybe* if you help and work on yourself first, that you just might see errors in your ways and go about improving upon them, because you're in a place now where you're inspired to try, to want to grow and be a healthier, better person.
People have to want to work at what they share. It shouldn't have to be all work (not by any means), but enough of a concerted effort needs to be there: some sort of commitment to at least the friendship angle.
Abandonment is sometimes all in the interpretation. Some have something that is somehow taken back or taken away from them, and some pine and hope, and they still don't quite get close enough... just out of reach. Close, but no cigar sort of vibe..
Everything is a two-way street at the end of the day. No one person can uphold a relationship. You can try, but it tends not to work out that way.
For example, I tend to (or at least I thought I) detested working out and/or jogging on a treadmill at the gym. Pushing yourself to go and sticking with it does so much to help you think (and feel) right, to spot stuff you didn't before. Taking care of yourself is key. I rarely used to do that.. I am now, though :) .
Real love is like sharing the best friendship going. You may squabble or have differences of opinion on occasion, but it's like anything: it's either there or it isn't, the connection..
Maybe people have to "abandon" others so they can't figure their own shit out before bringing someone else into the picture. It's never simple (although it wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't so much so at times).
That, and it all depends again on what the abandonment is per se'. Peace.
Some people don't get over hurt like that. Or, if they do, it's rarely ever forgotten again. I always felt like I was on the periphery growing up, and I lost a parent when I was young, so the whole getting used to losing people thing isn't that foreign to me..
I think you finally just get to a point where you tire of being or feeling downtrodden, and you begin to pull yourself up out of the mire and trudge onward, because you finally realize that you just have to.
That, and life's a bitch sometimes. Peace.
In a word, yes. Like Hyacinth, polyamory was a solution rather than making it worse, though.
I had some early life experiences that left me with a tremendous fear of abandonment. The sense that everyone I loved would eventually leave me, the sense that in my most vulnerable and needy moments, nobody would be there to support and comfort me. It actually took me a really long time (10, 15 years?) to figure out that I had this fear, because the way it showed up was that I seemed to be VERY VERY VERY into intense, committed, end-all-be-all relationships. When I met someone I liked, I would be saying "I love you" within weeks. If it went over well, the relationships became like little marriages overnight. Instead of hooking up and partying like my peers, I cohabited with 3 different partners over four years in college. We planned our futures, weddings, families, careers together. After college, what happened more often was that my desperation for such an intense relationship scared a lot of my dating partners off--I would ask for too much, too soon, and give too much, too soon--and as these partners abandoned me, the fear of abandonment grew worse, and my desperation and intensity grew worse, and so on in a vicious cycle.
Until I realized that all my desperate hunger for an intense committed relationship was like the raptors in Jurassic Park: I was testing their fence for weakness until I found the spot that would give. I was so afraid--so CERTAIN--they would abandon me, as previous partners had, that I would keep upping the ante: If sending little "thinking of you" love texts two weeks in didn't frighten him off, maybe meeting my parents three weeks in will. If that didn't frighten her off, maybe "I love you" four weeks in will. And so on. On a very subconscious level, I was running my relationships into the ground because there was a part of me that believed it was inevitable that I'd be abandoned and was just trying to speed it along, with some vague romantic notion that when I met The One, he or she would withstand everything I threw at him or her and that's how I would know they were never going to leave. That's how I would finally feel secure--by finding the person who couldn't be driven away, no matter how hard I tried.
I didn't realize this until I tried polyamory and about a year later I suddenly realized that I'd been with the same person for a year--after not being with the same person more than a month in over five years--and that my relationships were healthier than they'd ever been. I realized I had stopped being so intense, stopped being so demanding, and I realized I no longer feared that my partners would leave me. I still recognized it as a possibility, but 1) I knew that, because I'm dating other poly folk, they won't leave me for someone else when they can just date both of us, and 2) I knew that, even if they did leave me, I would have other partners to support me. I wouldn't be crying into my ice cream by myself in front of the TV. I would be crying into the shoulder of a supportive friend or lover who would gently hold me and reassure me that these things happen, that nothing is forever, that I am good and I am loved, and that just because it didn't work out with that person doesn't mean either of us need to be angry at each other, and that I can grieve the loss of the relationship for as long as it takes, instead of forever. I still get sad when a relationship ends, but I'm much more emotionally resilient these days. Polyamory gave me that. It took away my crippling fear.
Which is not to say that it would do that for everyone--I can see how people with more of a naturally jealous nature than me (again, I was never much a jealous person whether romantically or otherwise) might actually find polyamory harder to deal with than monogamy. But for me, it's infinitely easier.
"with some vague romantic notion that when I met The One, he or she would withstand everything I threw at him or her and that's how I would know they were never going to leave. That's how I would finally feel secure--by finding the person who couldn't be driven away, no matter how hard I tried."
I fell victim to this myself.. The receiving end and the giving end of that.. It's very hard to get a handle on that and begin to make sense of that, but, yeah, I can relate to that.
Now, if it's just not working out, I set it down, think about it, *breathe*, and then try again with hopefully a much better, balanced approach.
It is great that people can connect the ways they do, but everyone is still singular and their own person at the end of the day. I've forgotten my own self many times over in the past, caught up in all of that.. It's sweet to want to be kind, giving and sensitive and all of that: just not at the expense of your own health to benefit someone else's. There is room for both to be happy and healthy. It just takes time, a bit of focus and a decent amount of inspired effort.
the difference that happens here is between those who 'just deal' with the fact that they share a lover/partner , or two - and this is more the mainstream culture - and those who are whanau to each other... i guess the relationship is kinda like siblings. logistics depend on the folks involved. different houses makes things easier. it’s not so common for people to share a house with two concurrent lovers unless there are kids involved, but also, it is very common for adults to have their own bed. …anyway… no-one has to sleep on the couch. If all else fails you just all pile in together.
relationship recognition.... it’s social. the legal thing is not so much important. many people don’t bother with it at all. I don’t know how to answer that question. because you just see and know? you probably don’t know for sure who is sleeping with who, except your own lovers, and maybe theirs as well….
it's interesting to watch this conversation, and it becomes increasingly clear there is a significant cultural gap.
there seems to be, in america, an odd obsession with ‘labels’… or maybe it’s ‘status’… I’m not sure. But there seems to be a pre-occupation with ‘what is this relationship exactly’, which just seems strange to me.
for instance: over here, 'dating' is something that is done by kids in school, not adults. seriously, once you are a grown-up, there are no need for cute definitions or anything. people go out, they make friends. everyone just makes their own arrangements, as it suits them. Stuff just happens.
… all this has made me think about ‘relationship recognition’, and the social side of relationships… i’ve been talking it over with another ‘real world’ person :-) and she said two things which seem relevant: the first was that maybe the only concrete predictable difference between ‘friends who sometimes have sex’ and ‘partners’ was the longevity of the relationship. The other was that the shift into a relationship which is recognized by the community as ‘a thing’, is an organic and mysterious process which is often not under the control of the parties involved. This I would definitely agree with!!
i’ve just realised, thinking it all through, that in my mind ‘relationships/partners/etc’ are actually completely independent of ‘sex’. but that might just be me.
we have words for sweetheart, darling, etc - any number of endearments. we can use possessive pronouns: my girl/boy/man/woman. we can specify that someone is our secondary partner, or the head of the house... but the only translations for 'spouse' or 'primary partner' equate to (non-gendered) my best friend.
Oh, I would. I think a lot of people, male or female, can find some expressions of jealousy sexy because they push that "I really am wanted" button. I was only saying that I don't find it so in my own life.
I'm just curious. Anyway, am I close?
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=squicky
:)
@ 240, Sappho: You too are welcome. Thanks to all of you for knowing how to throw down when it comes to an interesting, truly thought-provoking chat. Much appreciated. Take care, everyone. Peace.
@ 240, Sappho: You too are welcome :) . Thanks to all of you for knowing how to throw down when it comes to an interesting, truly thought-provoking chat. Much appreciated. Take care, everyone. Peace.
Have I pissed everybody in Dan and everybody posting to this column off?
Wow. I guess I just can't relate to anybody anymore at all.
@seandr I have massive abandonment anxiety - I have been abandonned as a child, for refusing to submit to further child sexual abuse - but I've never found any sexual jealousy in me. Don't know why.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.ph…
Urbandictionary - decipherer of slang to the non-native English speaker and older generations alike.
I have been thinking about a premise for a short story that centers on a polyamorous relationship for a while now. And people who write fiction can (or should) be obsessed with research and accurate portrayals.
Also, how does one bring up the possibility of non-monogamy with someone she might date?
It's easier to be non-monogamous with a new partner than to open an existing monogamous relationship. I actually find it rarely comes up as a real topic of conversation. I meet someone, we start dating. I'm usually pretty clear that I'm seeing other people if I am, but I also don't expect someone to assume I'm being monogamous with them unless we have made an explicit agreement or we're spending so much time together that they couldn't reasonably think I have time for anyone else. I've also usually spent time around them prior to actually dating them, and it's probably been referenced or disclosed in casual conversation at some point before we became linked. Most people put two and two together when they hear me say, "My partner Bob got a promotion yesterday!" in the morning and "I have a date tonight with Tim, the cute guy from the coffee shop," in the afternoon. Or we have friends in common who filled them before we went out.
If a hookup is totally unexpected we might have a conversation after that first hookup about, "So what does this mean?" where I'll be clear that I'm not looking for monogamy, but I might say something like, "We're clearly not going to keep doing this forever, but I don't think either of us sees the other as a long-term partner, either. So we can do this for a while, but when the time comes for this to end--as we both know it will--let's end it with mutual respect for each other." or "When we go out on dates together, we're out with each other. I won't pick up or ask out anyone else when I'm with you, and I'd like you to do the same for me."
I once started a fling with a guy who was definitely looking for monogamy in the long run, but didn't want to be in a relationship with me, so didn't particularly care that I was dating other people while dating him. I told him after our first hook-up that when the day came that he met a special lady he wanted to become serious and monogamous with, that he should feel free to just tell me, and I would be happy for him and we would end our sexual relationship and just be friends.
So I guess it's roughly the point where monogamous people would have the, "I want us to stop seeing other people," conversation--I just have a slightly different one at that juncture.
Wishing you and everybody safe, happy healthy & prosperous holidays well into 2013 and beyond!