Columns Jan 30, 2013 at 4:00 am

Sex-Positive Therapy

Comments

1
Dan the Man: Thanks for the helpful link to Dr. Marty Klein!!
I am presently going through a real mind-fuck for older women.
Now that my (Atkins) diet is working, I have lost inches around my waist
and seem to be returning to my more youthful early 20ish looks.
Problem: while I love where I live in a college town, guys half my age are scoping me out!! Yikes!!
I went to bed last night humming the Mrs. Robinson theme from The Graduate!
2
I like Dan's focus on the manners in play for the second letter.

Do people consider online sex with a paid professional cheating? I would consider it in similar lines to hiring someone who sat across from you in the room, even if there was no physical contact. Or having cyber sex with an ex or someone from Craig's list or other non-pro--to me the personal interaction puts it in a very different category from "looking at porn." Whereas something like a point-and-click virtual stripper falls under "looking at porn."
3
I'm guessing part of the reason SAD's boyfriend was looking at porn is how much of a prude she sounds like. I think it's fair to assume that a girl who thinks porn is cheating also thinks oral sex is disgusting and doggiestyle is disrespectful.
4
Dear SAD,
I understand that this was a bit of shock. Consider that your boyfriend lied to you because he knew you would be very upset to find out that he watches porn. But it's like you getting a bit of a movie or literary crush on a fictional character, his porn-interest. It is no threat to you. It doesn't interfere with his real affection for, interest in, or attraction to you.

You are real. Your relationship is real. Porn offers make-believe sensory stimulation, even if it is cyber porn (provided it's cyber porn with a revolving cast of characters or a pro; it he's having a cyber-sexual relationship with an actual real-life ex, that's probably grounds for a discussion and maybe some limit-setting).

You say that this is your first serious relationship, from which I conclude you're pretty young. There is a saying, "choose your battles." Decide what is really worth fighting about or getting devastated by. Unless your boyfriend is ignoring you sexually and neglecting your needs to have cyber sex or jerk off looking at porn, I'd consider this not worth the battle with him or your own sense of self-esteem.

It's just porn. It's not cheating.

5
third!
6
dsmmit!
7
@5, 6: HA!
8
I hope there's a special club for people who manage to comment first on one of Dan's columns and say something more meaningful than the order in which their comment occurred. It's funny to watch the comment fails, but I'm just saying. And yes, I'm already in the club ;-)))

SAD needs to get over herself... with rare exception porn does nothing to harm a relationship and much more commonly helps relationships. If you're going to feel "betrayed" every time your partner looks at another woman, watches porn, gets at all kinky, you can toss your sex life out the window. Look for someone who doesn't care about sex and you will find your perfect life partner. If you want a great sex life ease up and give your partner the love and the space they need. Nothing else will do it.
9
auntie griselda is definitely in the club.
10
My BS detector was throbbing during the last letter. I'm probably wrong, but the list of certified excuses seemed a little too pat. If they're all true then to hell with the ex. If not, then LW, you are probably a CPOS.
11
I'm really confused by SAD. If he was wanking with an ex over Skype that's not porn, it's betrayal, but if it's only "interactive" because he was handling what after all still belongs to him while looking at pictures of strangers that's not cheating, it's looking at porn.

Also using an acronym whose first letter is provided by the word the acronym spells is in fact cheating.
12
SAD's boyfriend should have been upfront with her. And SAD should get the fuck over it if she ever wants to have a relationship where her partner does not feel forced to lie to her. And MEXICO should have fucked a healthy adult who made her feel attractive and energized a long time ago, so good for her. Down with emotional/sexual hostage situations.
13
@11: That acronym trick isn't cheating. In computer programming it's called "recursion". It can be very useful.
14
@13, I'm with 11. The acronyms are there to entertain us, and, dammit, I feel cheated.

I would advise the first letter writer to try Fetlife. Read the discussion groups for a while, and you'll find people whose posts make sense to you, then write them privately and you'll find that most people are supportive and encouraging. We've all felt that "fear of being labeled abnormal."
15
SAD, MEXICO, in case you missed Savage's seething sarcasm, and his need not to belabor the obvious. SAD: you want someone to desire you only, forever. This is immature egocentricity. Now stop that drama about being cheated on. MEXICO: you should have fled from this nonsense long ago. Yet here you are worrying about whether you are a CPOS. Run, you fool! Geez.
16
@10 My BS detector didn't go off about that letter. "This person has a very good explanation" isn't an indicator of BS.
17
I don't doubt a lot of readers agree with Dan, but I wanted to put forth a different view on porn watching. 1. Why is it ok to lie about watching porn if you have the slightest indication your wife/gf might be uncomfortable with it. 2) Why is any such woman such a complete object of disrespect. There are lots of women that are uncomfortable with porn. Higher than the percentage of the population that is gay for instance. Maybe it's not a value you agree with, just like some people disagree with polyamory or even homosexuality, but does having even a hint of this loathsome disorder really mean that they should be dumped without a second thought no matter how many other fine qualities they may have or how long they have been married? 3) Crazy, but I kind of feel that if we labeled this dislike of porn an actual fetish where people twisted it into something they got off on, it would then be perfectly ok. 4) Surely I'm not wrong in thinking that humans managed for 99.999% of history to (gasp no!) live without porn. Maybe the attitude that a woman who wants her bf to do without is equivalent to asking him not to breathe is really a bit much. I agree most men watch porn btw although I don't think 100% do like Dan keeps insisting. I agree it's not not the biggest thing in the world, but that's my value- can't they have a right to theirs? For the record, I'm a cam show girl and I am polyamorous myself.
18
@17: "Surely I'm not wrong in thinking that humans managed for 99.999% of history to (gasp no!) live without porn."

Have you ever seen the cave paintings at Lascaux (which have explicit depictions of sex and genitalia), the Moche pots of Peru (which feature massive amounts of anal sex), or the massive amounts of Greek and Roman erotic art (which have just about everything)?

There's abundant reason to think that human beings have been making porn for almost as long as there have been human beings at all!
19
P.S. Are we sure that SAD's "interactive porn" means "cyber-sex with a paid professional", and not some kind of cheesy computer program where you can choose different options, scenarios, etc.?

There are tons of those around, starting with cheesy 1990s multimedia CDROMs (and their DVD successors), juvenile animated Flash games, Japanese eroge and dating sims, and so on.

I don't think jacking off with a camgirl you're paying is "interactive porn", myself -- that crosses the line into hiring a sex worker. But if SAD is freaking out that her boyfriend masturbates to the porn equivalent of Choose Your Own Adventure, she needs to get the fuck over it.
20
@16 She's trying too hard to explain herself. I can see why some people would read that as BS, but given the circumstances, I think it says more about how she ended up in this relationship in the first place. I see a need for outside approval and some people-pleasing tendencies that often cause people to ignore red flags and excuse abusive or controlling behavior. Some sort of counseling is a pretty standard recommendation for people getting out of an abusive relationship and MEXICO could likely benefit from examining that need for approval.
21
SAD, I'm going to sympathize with part of your feelings, but not all of them.

I can understand feeling betrayed if he said he only looks at porn when not in a relationship, and then you subsequently caught him looking. That implies pretty strongly that he thinks he's not in a real relationship with you. That implication must hurt.

But that's only a correct implication if you believe him about never looking while in a relationship, which is (or should be) an obvious, absurd lie. Men who don't look at porn are rare, though men who lie about never looking at porn are common, because they aren't up to having a fight with you over something that really isn't any of your business.

In any case, no, looking at porn isn't cheating. Interactive porn (point and click games or videos) isn't cheating either. It's just a computer program. It's a stimulus toy, not a person to cheat with. If porn is cheating, so is a vibrator. If your boyfriend started accusing you of cheating on him and betraying his and your relationship with that penis in your sock drawer, I hope you would laugh at him.
22
What does SAD mean by interactive porn?

If it's a game, ok, but if her boyfriend is talking to another actual person and directing a scene or action (cam girls) that's a bit more than just "looking at porn".

I've been in relationships with some pretty progressive women, but any instance where you can ask someone to "say your name" and have your request fulfilled is probably not something you should do in a relationship without specifically communicating about it first.
23
@21 - I expect SAD doesn't have a penis in her sock drawer. But she probably fantasises about Mr Darcy or Ryan Gosling or whoever the young ladies like these days. And that is the same thing as using porn, at least from the recipient end.

This is the problem I have with @17's view. Women who have ethical concerns about exploitation or abuse in porn can disapprove as much as they like, particularly if they have evidence that the ethical issues are a real thing. But women who go all squirly over film stars or boy bands and then disapprove of men using porn because it's 'like cheating' are great big hypocrites, if you ask me.
24
@23:
I agree completely.

There is a huge market not only for erotica, but also for romance novels, and the readers are almost exclusively women. And I bet a lot of Barbara Cartland-readers disapprove of porn, despite using those sappy novels for the same reason.

But they fool themselves that it is about love, and therefore something completely different...
25
@22 makes a workable distinction for interactive porn vs interactive in-the-cheating-realm. A point-and-click game is one thing, a live person on the other end who can respond to "say my name" is different. (Yes, I'm aware you could write a program to do that; work with me here.)

I don't see how using a cam girl is different from using a person you claim to have met just now on Craig's list or OKCupid who is totally not your ex, just a stranger on the internet you thought you'd join in a bout of mutual masturbation while your partner thought you were getting a beer from the fridge. As biggie says, you don't get to assume your partner is down with that without talking about it. (And how hard is 'not when she's in the next room'?)

She's young, in her first serious relationship, and doesn't know that much about how men, porn, men in relationships and porn, etc work. Quelle surprise. And it turns out to be the opposite of the way he told her it worked when she asked, and she dares be confused about that.

When it came up he could have calmly said something like "I look at naked women--it's something pretty much all straight men do, and gay men look at naked men. It doesn't mean anything to our relationship, just that I'm hard-wired to notice a woman in a bikini. It's not something I'd do in front of you or when you're over." (Which leaves room for her to say the last bits are okay, or where her boundaries are.)
26
Am I the only one who thought that Porn Dude wasn't chatting to a Cam-Girl?

Prude GF said it was "interactive" and "like he was cybering with one of his ex-GFs." To me, that says it was a game or a POV movie or something, not a flesh-and-blood person with a camera. Maybe that's just me.

@2, absolutely. The line in cheating isn't about what you're doing (Frenching and Cybering are cheating just as much as full-bore fucking), but about the fact that it's violating the rules. In our society, the default rule is complete exclusivity. Anything less than that, without explicit permission, is de facto cheating.
27
Marty Klein's advice is excellent, especially about the questions to ask a potential therapist! When dealing with a new therapist, your sense of whether or not you're comfortable with them is always your best way of knowing whether or not you'll work together well.

I would like to add, though, that if you're looking for a sex-positive therapist, a great place to look is the National Coalition for Sexual Freedom's Kink-Aware Professionals listing (KAP):

https://ncsfreedom.org/key-programs/kink…

It's a place where therapists (as well as lawyers, doctors, etc) can list themselves as being knowledgeable about and open to kinky clients-- and it's national (plus Canada), so it greatly improves your chances of finding someone in your area.
28
I think MEXICO left out a very important detail: did she do the gangbangs before she broke up with him or not???
29
@17:
"1. Why is it ok to lie about watching porn if you have the slightest indication your wife/gf might be uncomfortable with it."

Because it is a kindness to them. Virtually all guys look at porn. If your wife / GF is going to get all upset about it then you either lie to them about it or you get them upset. It is far kinder to lie to them rather than get them upset over something that doesn't, otherwise, actually harm them.

"2) Why is any such woman such a complete object of disrespect."

Because they are living in a fantasy land. Virtually every guy looks at porn. His looking at porn isn't going to harm her in any way. Insisting that he agree to not do something that everyone does and which doesn't harm her is unreasonable.

"but does having even a hint of this loathsome disorder really mean that they should be dumped without a second thought no matter how many other fine qualities they may have or how long they have been married?"

No. That's why guys lie about it. If every thing else is great you don't dump them just because they have a bat shit crazy attitude about porn. It makes more sense to lie about the porn than to dump the girl.

But when the girl finds out, and she always does, she has two ways to react. She can appreciate that he tried to spare her feelings and pretend she didn't find out, or she can go all bat shit controlling psycho on him. If she take the later option then she is asking to get dumped. Or lied to again.

"3) Crazy, but I kind of feel that if we labeled this dislike of porn an actual fetish where people twisted it into something they got off on, it would then be perfectly ok."

It's fine as a fetish if both people involved in the fetish get off on it. If the guy involved doesn't get off on having his sexuality controlled by his wife or GF then it isn't a fetish for him. It is just being in a relationships with an unrealistic controlling person.

"4) Surely I'm not wrong in thinking that humans managed for 99.999% of history to (gasp no!) live without porn."

Yes, you would be wrong. From cave paintings of early man to live sex shows in ancient Rome, to internet porn, humans have been producing porn and getting off on seeing displays of sex from other people as long as we have existed.

"Maybe the attitude that a woman who wants her bf to do without is equivalent to asking him not to breathe is really a bit much."

Yes, such a comparison is a bit much. But both requests are still unreasonable. The first is a matter of insanity and the second one is a display of over the top insecurity.

"I agree most men watch porn btw although I don't think 100% do like Dan keeps insisting."

No, not 100%. But close enough that it doesn't make a difference. I have no doubt that the number of women who get bent out of shape over their guy watching porn far, far exceeds the number of guys who don't watch porn.

Certainly there are some guys out there somewhere who don't watch porn. But the chances of an anti porn woman finding one is slim. So odds are so insanely against you if you are a woman looking for a guy who doesn't look at porn that if you limit your choice is to either finding one or being alone then you may as well just start calling yourself spinster and get a cat now.

"I agree it's not not the biggest thing in the world, but that's my value- can't they have a right to theirs?"

Anyone has a right to any values they want. But that doesn't change the fact that some values are unreasonable, unrealizable, and hurt the one that holds them. If someone wants to cling to values that are unrealistic and that only serve to cause them distress that is their choice, but the consequences are theirs as well and the rest of us may need to respec the persons right to hold their values, we don't have to respect the individuals or their values themselves.
30
MEXICO, when you're with the kind of piece of shit your ex was, who cares if you cheated? He was the POS, not you.
31
MEXICO-- What you're experiencing is the classic pull between a desire to be happy and a desire to be right. This is a perfectly understandable thing when I'm experiencing it. It looks downright stupid when someone else is.

Obviously you're lucky to be out of an abusive relationship. Obviously when things are that bad, it hardly matters how you got out of it just so long as you did get out of it. But what's niggling for you is that your ex doesn't believe that you're right. You want to be understood. Who doesn't? You want to make your point. I would too. But as time goes by, you'll come to realize that making someone you're in conflict with concede your point, making that someone agree that you were the wounded party all along, getting that sort of satisfaction, well, it's not all it's cracked up to be. It's certainly not worth making yourself unhappy in an attempt to get an asshole to admit he's an asshole.

Since your ex will never come around to admitting, you do the next best thing. You seek validation from Dan. You get him to tell him you're not a CPOS. You go to your girlfriends so they can tell you the same thing.

If it helps, here's some more from an anonymous person on the internet called Crinoline: What you did was fine under the circumstances. I'm glad you feel safe now. (Take care to keep yourself safe from that ex. He sounds unstable. I'm in no position to say if he's dangerous, but I'd be wary.) Future relationships will make you feel good about yourself. Look for those relationships. Good luck.
32
That doctor isn't kidding about sexually uninformed therapists. The last time I was seeing a therapist I mentioned that I was bisexual. She asked if my boyfriend knew about that, because most partners would consider that cheating. I had to explain that, no, being bisexual DIDN'T mean that I was sleeping with men and women at the same time. The experience still surprises me.
33
I see thru the DTMFA given to SAD - really its the BF Dan is helping here not SAD. Holy Cats for all the things to wig out over.

Yikes MEXICO just yikes. I'd leave the state and change my name.
34
Anyone who thinks it is easier to lie to spare someone elses feelings is a piece of lying shit. Just tell it straight, or you don't deserve to be in a relationship.
35
Great comments here as usual, especially @20.
36
@27: Thanks for the resource, but I can't help but notice a significant number of therapists in the Kink-Aware Professionals network also subscribe to bullshit like Reiki, reflexology and other magic-based pseudo-therapies. It's hard to trust sexual or relationship advice given by someone who believes rubbing a certain part of your foot can cure kidney stones.
37
Maybe if so many men didn't lie about it in an effort to "protect" their wives/gfs, there would eventually be fewer "naive" women and fewer feelings of betrayal when the truth did come out. And ultimately, more general acceptance of porn as a normality, which could only help society and even the performers. Men often lie to protect themselves instead of going through the potential unpleasantness of talking out a difference of opinion.

Why do these men want to be with such prudes anyway? In less than 10 years how many men will be complaining to Dan that his wife suddenly lost her sex drive after marriage or that she was only faking her tolerance of his kinks to get a ring.
38
SAD needed this reality check. It's pretty unreasonable to expect your partner to just stop watching porn if it's part of their life/routine.
39
"Maybe if so many men didn't lie about it in an effort to "protect" their wives/gfs, there would eventually be fewer "naive" women and fewer feelings of betrayal when the truth did come out."

Maybe. But that doesn't change the fact that right now there are many relationships where, if the woman knew the guy looked at porn, it would end even though everything else is fine.

Since the porn doesn't actually harm anyone keeping it secret seems the logical choice.

That may not make it right, but it is certainly understandable.

"Men often lie to protect themselves instead of going through the potential unpleasantness of talking out a difference of opinion."

On this topic, however, there are a whole hell of a lot of women who are just unreasonable. If you know your wife or GF is unreasonable about it then is it worth it to break up over? Most would say 'no' I think.

"Why do these men want to be with such prudes anyway?"

This doesn't make a woman a prude. For all we know these same women may be very kinky, sexual and otherwise GGG. This issue with porn isn't about being a prude. It's about being insecure.

But if everything else is good, including the sex life, then do you really think that a bit of insecurity exhibited in this one way is reason enough to end it? If so then end it. But for those who value the other things they get out of the relationship it's worth it to just pretend.

"In less than 10 years how many men will be complaining to Dan that his wife suddenly lost her sex drive after marriage or that she was only faking her tolerance of his kinks to get a ring. "

Already happens. The difference is that the guy watching porn isn't denying his wife of anything. He's not cheating. He's not neglecting her. He's not taking anything away from her.

It's a very different kind of deception. We all lie. We all tell little white lies to our spouses to smooth the waters.

'I don't look at porn' is a little white lie.

'I will satisfy your leather fetish if you bind yourself legally and financially forver through marriage' when you don't mean it is a pretty big fucking lie.
40
I would put camgirls right next to visiting strip clubs in terms of how close it is to cheating. It is a) a real live person on the other end of the transaction, b) looking but not touching, and b) costs money.

Camming with a friend would definitely be cheating.

I'm also confused by what is meant by "it was like he was cybersexing with one of his ex-girlfriends." Does that mean he was webcamming with a pay site? That it was a game program, but looked live (e.g., Virtual Stripper)? Or does that merely mean that him watching a video with his junk in his hand felt to her like he was cybering with a girlfriend? Based on her consistent characterizing it as "looking at porn" my hunch is that it wasn't a live video feed, but I could be wrong.
41
@39, I agree with @37. If all the men who regularly watch porn spoke out publicly to say so, the whole issue would vanish. I think many men get off on the secrets and shame and want to believe that their girlfriend or wife doesn't know that side of them. They don't want to date the kind of woman who would date such a pervert (as they see themselves).
42
I found my very sex-positive therapist through this website: http://www.polychromatic.com/pfp//main.p…

I know it's specifically poly-friendly, but one might have better luck finding someone kink friendly and sex positive through this filter.

- Christie
43
Erica, Sorry, but I don't buy it. In fact I call total BS on this one.

The Madonna / Whore complex may be alive and well in some men, but it isn't that prevalent that it accounts for why so many men hide their porn watching.

In fact, most men really don't. Because not all women (or men in the case of same sex relationships) are so insecure as to have such a big issue with it.

But when they are I have little doubt that the majority of the men who hide it do so not because they have some idea that if their girlfriends knew and stayed with them then the girlfriend was a problem.

No, they lie because they want to avoid having to deal with the insecure, batshit crazy response that some women have regarding this issue.

The lie is the symptom, not the dieses. The dieses is the insecure, crazy reaction some women have regarding this, and that is what should be the focus.

If men didn't lie the issue would go away? No. The issue is the insecurity of the women. Being honest about the porn isn't going to make these women less insecure.

The women dealing with their insecurity (perhaps with a professional therapist) is what will make them less insecure, and THAT will lead to the men not feeling like they need to lie about porn.
44
I followed the link to AASECT.org, and looked at the provider list for my area. Ironically, the provider I clicked on specializes in treatment of sexual addiction :)

So, Dr. Klein is correct that not all sexual therapist will share the your sexual values, and the need to interview the therapist first.
45
I agree with others who think the distinction should be less whether it's an ex or a stranger on the other end, and more if by "interactive porn" she actually means someone on the other end responding to his directions, or if it's an electronic game or something like that.

I think that if he'd posted an ad on Craigslist for a girl to cam with him, Dan would rightly call that cheating. I don't see how it isn't if it's an anonymous cam girl.

If it really is just a game though and there's no recipient on the other end, then it is just porn and not cheating and SAD needs to get a reality check.
46
If the men didn't lie there would be a lot more fights and recrimination, some small amount of dumpage, and a lot more unhappy women caught between not wanting to end the relationship and not wanting to let go of their gut feeling that porn is the same as cheating and that their guy is the insensitive one for not respecting her feelings, rather than her being the insensitive one for demanding something unreasonable.

True, eventually the message would get out and the problem would diminish over time, but I don't foresee it ever vanishing.
47
"he threatened that if I didn't participate in gang bangs, he would find someone who would." Excuse me? Nobody can push you in having sex with other people if you don't want it. I can't even imagine how damaging it is to get gang banged if you don't really enjoy it and really want it yourself.
so if MEXICO really did that, next time she dates a psycho like that, she should pack and leave immediately. that is so so fucked up that it's hard to believe that the letter is real!
48
"...sex advice from me and Mistress Matisse, the Human Cupcake,..."

Methinks the editor needs an editor. Is the Human Cupcake a separate person or is Mistress Matisse the Human Cupcake?
49
@41: " I think many men get off on the secrets and shame and want to believe that their girlfriend or wife doesn't know that side of them."

What, that they look at porn? How very secretive and daring of them. (eyeroll)

More like they don't feel like dealing with the embarrassment (most people don't like being walked in on when they are taking a shit, either) and shame that has been heaped on them since well before puberty for something that should by rights be entirely their private business. Often as not, an orgasm is a good substitute for a sleeping pill. Instant roll over and go to sleep (remember, the act that men are infamous for? Their insensitivity when the hormones hit?), without the hangover the next morning.
50
Okay, I'm clearly going to be in the minority here, but SAD's bf lied. If he wants to be with someone who is okay with porn/mutual masturbation with other people/whatever the hell was going on there, then he shouldn't be with her.

I am choking on the condescension here from both Dan and the commenters. Guess what? Not all women who are anti-porn are insecure prudes. We aren't porcelain dolls who need protection, we are partners in a relationship who deserve the truth. If porn/Skype mutual masturbation/etc., etc. is a dealbreaker for her, then she deserves to know so that she can end the relationship.

That is all. *Climbs down off soapbox*
51
I don't think anyone should lie about watching porn if they are asked directly. Most don't ask, because they prefer "not to know (for sure)", or they think it's none of their business, but when someone asks directly, one of two things is true: a)They really want to know because they are curious, want to know what you like, want to watch it with you, etc. or b) they want you *not* to watch porn and they want an opportunity to tell you you have to stop if you are. With person a, no issue. Person b needs a reality check, and far better to get it sooner rather than cause issues when (not if) they find out. They'll get over it once they realize it is inevitable. Have a screaming fight every time if you have to. The point will get taken, or you'll break up. I'd rather that than lie or be lied to.
52
@34: "Anyone who thinks it is easier to lie to spare someone elses feelings is a piece of lying shit. Just tell it straight, or you don't deserve to be in a relationship."

OK, here goes. I'm not very attracted to you anymore, and I often wonder whether I could do better, but I'm too lazy and insecure to take the chance, especially now that I'm older. And besides, now that we have kids, I can't escape without hurting them and/or going broke.

Also, I tell you you're a great lover, but I'm not mentioning that you're still not nearly as good as several of my exes. I still get off thinking about some of what I did with them; I can't imagine ever doing that with our sex life. Our sex is OK, but I've had better, and I don't think you're capable of ever really being a great lay.

Also, half of the time you speak, I'm bored and just waiting for you to stop. I can usually guess what you're going to say anyway, since it's almost always the same thing, so there's basically no point in listening.

Also, I'm tired of dealing with the chip on your shoulder. You're not the victim of anything; people don't like you because you're mediocre and annoying and self-oriented, not because they're unfair.

I could go on, but right about now those little white lies start looking pretty good, eh?
53
Why can't MEXICO and her ex *both* be POSes? There's room for two in a relationship.
54
@52. Lol. Knocking it off with the lies long *before* marrying and reproducing would prevent a lot of those issues. :o) Also, I think it applies to *direct questions*. I'm not so foolish as to ask a direct question to which I can't handle an honest answer. And the best way to cure someone of that brand of foolishness is to get unpleasant honest answers.
55
What if it isn't porn insecurity? What if it is a matter of taste or politics? (or feeling safe in a sexually hostile world) Finding a cheesy, hyper commercialized, exploitative mag (that insults you and turns you the fuck off) in your Twu Wuv's nightstand is almost like finding Mcdonald's wrappers in your social justice and vegan activist mentor's purse. You thought you both believed in the same things, pursued the same ideologies, and were building something better for the future. Your intimate future. I'm not saying everbody must pursue erotica/porn and sexuality together, as couples and have no differences or private interests- but a little white lie about something so personal as what turns your significant other on? When you're young new at this?
Hard lessons, those sexual expectations.
56
@52: the counterpoint script is:
At the beginning of our relationship we agreed that no question was out of bounds, and that "I'm not ready to answer that right now." was always an acceptable answer. We've stuck to those rules and they have served us well.

In the early years you weren't the best lover I'd ever known, and our conversations on sex weren't always easy, but we talked, we never settled for the status quo, and now you are the best lover I've ever known. (And I'd known more than a few before you. You've never asked about them. Thank you.)

We've each helped the other grow, worked to keep the relationship fresh, worked to keep it healthy in spite of kids. No way would we be where we are now without being able to speak truth, and ask questions, nor without each taking more than 50% of the responsibility for building the relationship.
57
A lot of men look at porn. A lot of women feel insecure when their guy looks at porn. Both are totally reasonable feelings, both are rooted in biology, culture, and socialization. We don't need to demonize either. We do need to accept that there is a conflict, and try to suggest ways to deal with that conflict. Can we all just start from there?
58
@53: That's pretty much where my thinking on this is.
59
Dan, thank you for your response to MEXICO. A few years ago I started a relationship with a guy whose "ex-gf-now-best-friend" entered his apartment without his permission while he was away visiting family, looked for his laptop which he had hidden, and read his emails to me. She threatened suicide on multiple occasions, and did a few other things slightly less crazy but same general direction. I told him this behavior was emotionally abusive and he wouldn't accept that -- kept making excuses for her behavior. And he wasn't much better -- he would tell me one thing and tell her another thing, then behave the opposite of whatever he said. This was exceptionally hard on me since I'm used to people behaving rationally. Eventually we broke up and later I heard they got back together to "try to make it work." It took me a long time but I moved on and now am in the best relationship ever. Glad to hear independent confirmation that these are the signs of an abuser.
60
Yes, in a more perfect union there would be no lies at all. But all lies were not created equal. "No honey, you don't look fat in that dress" and "I don't mind your hair loss at all" fall under the category of harmless little white lies to help everyone save face and which allow the relationship to continue. Shakespeare wrote about this in sonnet 138 ("When my love swears that she is made of truth, I do believe her though I know she lies") coming to the astute conclusion: "Therefore I lie with her, and she with me/ And in our faults by lies we flattered be."

Now the usual disclaimers apply, and if you have a relationship founded on radical honesty that works for you, that's wonderful. But not everyone can handle that much naked truth, and it isn't the end of civilization to turn a blind eye and deaf ear occasionally in order to preserve romantic harmony, particularly if you know that your own insecurities are illogical, but you are vulnerable to them nevertheless.

To therefore suggest that everyone who says "I don't watch porn," or "I only use porn when I'm not in a relationship" is contributing to some sort of massive social problem that could be erased or overturned if only everyone was 100% honest 100% of the time where porn is concerned is naive.

The fact is, that the vast, vast majority of men, gay and straight, watch porn sometimes (women, too, but that's a different number) and a lot of women (some men, too, but again, not as frequently) have insecurities, as well as convictions about what sexual commitment means founded coincidentally on the same romance novels and movies that are generally consumed by women.

Their expectations are unrealistic, and while over time they may come to a more mature understanding about the role porn plays in men's lives, it is a shame if otherwise good relationships break up because the woman either hasn't learned that lesson yet or is unable to ever confront it.

In which case the white lie does more practical good to the actual couple at hand, even while it may do some theoretical harm to society.

It's funny, #23 (misspiggy), but when I commented @4, I had exactly Ryan Gosling (movie crush) and Mr. Darcy (literary crush--and hey, happy 200th birthday, Pride and Prejudice, as of yesterday!) in mind. Women are sold these men and further sold that if it is true love the man won't ever want to look at another woman again. The battle to replace this myth with reality can be fought on two fronts simultaneously: with an education campaign about how much porn men really watch and what, exactly it means to them emotionally/how much a threat to their real relationship it is AND if the woman seems unable or unready to hear that in its totality, by a little white lie, which she pretends to believe and doesn't try to expose as a lie in order to accuse her bf or husband of "cheating."

But hey, some people think that masturbating, if done by a person in a relationship, is a form of cheating. It's a long, uphill battle, idealists.

P.S. Barbara Cartland's romances are pretty tame. But people should check out what's in the romances on the table at your local Barnes and Noble--it's often more explicit than a lot of people assume. Always couched in the concept of love, however. Many (though by no means all) women gobble it up by the metric ton--some of those same women are the ones devastated that their boyfriends or husbands watch porn.
61
@13 I don't think SAD constitutes a recursive acronym because the word "sad" has its own meaning, unlike say GNU, which refers to its own acronym in order to define itself, hence the recursion.

I wouldn't call it cheating, but it _is_ kinda lame.
62
@nocutename:
Yes, Barbara Cartland novels are completely tame- that's the reason I used them as an example. I wasn't sure if the more explicit novels would underscore my point as well, since they could be classed as written porn.
63
@55 "What if it isn't porn insecurity? What if it is a matter of taste or politics?"

Taste is irrelevant. He doesn't have to have the same tastes as she does in everything. In fact that may be why he looks at porn. As for politics, if there is such a big difference between them in politics between them it would manifest in some other ways. If porn is the only way it manifests then it isn't such a big difference.

But come on, that may be the exception, but that certainly isn't the rule, and it certainly isn't what the letter writer was saying. She was hurt, and sick, and sad, and felt like he was cheating on her.

That's not a political difference. That's insecurity.

"Finding a cheesy, hyper commercialized, exploitative mag (that insults you and turns you the fuck off) in your Twu Wuv's nightstand is almost like finding Mcdonald's wrappers in your social justice and vegan activist mentor's purse."

If that's how you feel then you shouldn't date men. It's that simple.

And really, what does the fact that the mags or what ever else it is turns you off? If it turns you off then don't look at it. It isn't for you. It's for him. And what the fuck are you snooping through his nightstand for anyway? For that matter why are you digging through your mentor's purse? I think you have some boundary issues.

" I'm not saying everbody must pursue erotica/porn and sexuality together, as couples and have no differences or private interests- but a little white lie about something so personal as what turns your significant other on?"

Your reading far too much into it. He likes to look at naked women other than his wife. He gets off on seeing other people have sex. In other words, he's a heterosexual man.

Here, let me disabuse you of any uncertaintly about what turns your significant other on.

If your significant other is a man, porn turns him on.

There. If that is too much for anyone they need to avoid men. And a huge chunk of the female population as well.

@50, "Okay, I'm clearly going to be in the minority here, but SAD's bf lied."

Well, so far you are with the majority. We all pretty much agree he lied. That isn't in question. The question is if he was out of line to lie.

"If he wants to be with someone who is okay with porn/mutual masturbation with other people/whatever the hell was going on there, then he shouldn't be with her."

Did she tell him this on day one? Do most women? Most women don't and I'm willing to bet this woman didn't.

What most likely happened was they dated, he got hooked. She never mentioned porn. And then he developed feelings for her and they started to get serious, and only then, after he already developed an emotional connection to her did she lay the "I don't want you to look at porn" BS on his sorry ass.

By the time he realized it he was probably already hooked.

If she told him very early on, before anything approaching serious was reached, that if he watched porn he wasn't the guy she wanted, then that would be one thing. But I'm willing to bet money she didn't.

It would be great if no one felt the need to lie ever, but this is the real world.

If women don't want guys to lie about porn then before a guy gets too invested in a woman she should make a very clear statement that: "I don't like porn. If you watch porn I don't want to be with you. If we get together and I catch you watching porn I am going to go batshit crazy on your ass and make your life a living hell."

If he still gets involved with her knowing that then he deserves what he gets. But if she already gets his heart on a hook and then pulls that shit, which is what seems to happen in the vast majority of cases, then she is asking to be lied to.

Because if he told her now that no, he isn't going to stop watch porn and she can either deal with it or leave, I guarantee you she isn't going to be happy, relived, or see him as a great guy for telling the truth. It will either end the relationship hurting both (and she will blame him for it ending), or she will stick with it but continue feeling betrayed, hurt, sad, whatever (and blaming him for it).

No matter how this ends she's going to make him the bad guy, so if he can spare himself all that with a little white lie then is it any wonder that is the option he chooses?
64
I've been with the same man for fifteen years, eleven of them married. We're monogamous, so far successfully. Porn is a very small part of our sex lives (which is awesome, thanks) - we watch it together maybe two or three times a year. I've made it clear to him that I have absolutely no problem with him watching porn alone and doing what men do. In spite of that, I actually truly believe he doesn't. We share computer passwords, and while I don't snoop, I have never, in fifteen years, come across anything more explicit than a babe in a bikini on the hood of a sportscar. To be clear, again, this isn't important to me and if I DID find porn I would ignore it and be fine. I'm writing to say I think it's just possible that a healthy red-blooded man might not use porn as a regular part of his life. Just possible.
65
SAD I was you many years ago.

Raised in the 80's I felt kind of socially trained to believe all forms of pornography were filthy, degrading to ALL women, bad for communities and society at large.

Then I went out into the world as a single gal living on her own in the big city.

I discovered some great sex positive advice columns and evolved my thinking. I also acted on advice - like check out a sex positive Adult store in my area.

I delved into written erotica, experimented with toys and in a few years many of my previous beliefs shifted dramatically.

Shortly before I married my hub I found he had looked at porn on our computer.

My initial reaction was just like yours but I kept it to myself and processed for a few days.

Then I opened the files he had downloaded. While it didn't do anything for me, I could see it was harmless whack off material.

Next I ASKED him about it (not confronted or demanded). I asked why he enjoyed it and accepted his explanation.

Finally I processed all of that an decided that I would rather be in this relationship with this guy and his porn habits than not.

15 years later we both enjoy watching porn together now as part of our repertoire.

I accept that he has self pleasure that works for him and doesn't include me or have anything to do with how desirable he finds me.

I have my own too.

Broaden your horizons and your views on this may change.

Your reaction is much more about you than your guy or the porn.

You get to decide if that is who you want to be in a relationship with. But you don't get to decide or demand anything about his porn habits. You really don't want that BURDEN, not in a healthy relationship.
66
Methinks Necktieknot needs the grammar lesson, not Dan. That comma is perfectly appropriate.
67
LOL geralinda you said it way better than me & in less words! Kudos!
68
Here's the thing about women and porn. I think it's fine if they're insecure about it, but women need to accept that finding a guy who doesn't watch porn is not a reasonable expectation. The reason why Dan always says "All men watch porn" is not because every single man on the planet does, but so many do that it's a fact you have to accept if you date men.

It's fine if you want to date a man who watches porn in a way that you can accept. My boyfriend only watches porn when I'm not going to catch him at it, not because I'm in denial about his porn-watching, but because it DOES make me insecure. I tried to watch porn with him early in the relationship, but I was uncomfortable when some of the girls were "hotter" than me, and I learned that my vanity can't handle watching porn with him. So I don't, and he doesn't make me. That's a reasonable compromise.

It's not reasonable to break up with a guy for watching porn at all. It might be reasonable to break up with him for lying about it, but I think you should try to make him stop lying about it before you break up with him over it. A lot of men have good reasons for making that decision.
69
@ 52,

Most every marriage ends up where you are.

Parenting is not sexy, often not fun or as fulfilling as others things we crave.

Your post is almost a form letter example of why people need to go to therapy/couples counseling.

If all that is your internal dialog and you have never bounced it off a friend or trusted adviser, you are disassembling your marriage and never giving your wife the possibility of helping create change in your lives.

You took part in bringing those kids into the world. As a parent you are responsible for making choices with their best interests first.

Not saying people shouldn't break up ever. But this is boilerplate Marriage & Kids 101.
70
@ 68,

Yep and this too!
71
@68, I think what you describe is a perfectly reasonable compromise.

We all have insecurities. The thing to remember is that we are responsible for our insecurities, not our partners. It's one thing to ask our partners to be considerate of our insecurities ("please be discreet about watching porn because I don't want to see it") and foisting our insecurities on our partners ("If you watch porn you will hurt my feelings and be responsible for me feeling bad").

As for the right to lie, I agree that it is better not to lie, but some women don't give the men in their lives a reasonable option. It's either lie or deal with guilt trips, threats or manipulation.

If a woman approaches it the way you have then the man has no reason to lie. If they approach it using emotional manipulation trying to make the guy feel guilty about making them feel bad for looking at porn then the dude is stuck between a rock and another bigger rock about to fall on him.

So yes, it's fine to have insecurities, until you start taking your insecurities out on other people. Then it's not so alright.
72
My issue with porn - and as my last post made clear, I watch porn, both with and without my husband, and I assume he watches it alone - is with the abundance of violent, misogynist, exploitative porn. My local sex shop has a wall of the most popular movies - and invariably, the number one title is something like "Shove a bitch's head in the toilet while you ass-rape her and then make her suck it." Many years ago, I also worked briefly in the sex industry (legally, dancing) and saw firsthand that a large percentage of men's fantasy's is not the harmless "I like to look at naked girls" vibe that the guys here are trying to push (hi there, fortunate, I'm talking to you). Looking at naked chicks, or looking at people fucking + great! Looking at women being coerced and abused + not so much. If I found ordinary porn on my husband's computer my reaction would be something along the lines of m"lock the door, honey, let's watch this together." If I found "gang-raped teens 4" it would be something altogether different.
73
"If you ..... I'll KILL MYSELF!" Should be responded to by getting the fuck away from the person and leaving them a typed, unsigned, note with the suicide hotline for your area.
74
64-Gueralinda-- When Dan says that all men look at porn, he's not saying that all men look at porn at all stages in their lives or that all men look at it as a regular part of their sex lives. Your husband's habits are part of Dan's generalization. That is, men look at porn more at some times and less at others. And men look at different porn and for different reasons. Watching porn 2 or 3x/year with your partner still counts as looking at porn.

I believe that my boyfriend of 25 years doesn't currently look at porn. I know that he did way back when. I found some rather tame magazines of the Playboy/Penthouse sort, started to tease him about them, learned in no uncertain terms that he preferred not to be teased, and never brought up the subject again. Really it was a very short conversation. But just because he doesn't look at porn now doesn't negate Dan's supposition that all men look at porn. In my boyfriend's case, it's just something he did when he was younger.
75
Look at me all you want Gueralinda. I never said all porn is great, nor did I say that a woman never has a right to express issues with the porn her husband or bf watches.

Most guys like to look at naked girls, and people fucking. Some guys like to look at more extreme things, or more fetish oriented things. Some of those things can cross a line.

If you catch your husband watching porn featuring actual acts or scenarios that you think are misogynistic and want to ask him not to watch that kind of porn, fine. If you find him watching something clearly exploitive and you want him to not watch something like that then fine.

But don't assume that the segment of men you came into contact with during your foray into the sex industry represents all or most men.

Also, this is going onto a real tangent. If the letter writer, or the people chiming in to defend her, had stated that what they were objecting to is their spouses looking at porn of women getting their heads shoved into toilets while the guy simulates raping them, and they had a problem with that then fine.

But the discussion was about "porn", and from having once lived in a dorm with a bunch of straight guys, and having had straight guy friends my whole life, most of what the average guy watches is fairly tame by comparison. Maybe not always so vanilla, but not necessarily what you are describing.

Letter writer wasn't saying she was objecting to his watching violent, misogynistic porn. She was complaining about his watching porn (and left it very ambiguous about exactly what that porn consisted of as many others have noted).

So you are now making a straw man argument. No one ever said that all kinds of porn were always alright and that no woman ever has a justification for complaining about the porn her man watches. So changing the goalposts is not called for.

If you want to talk about the issues and problems about specific types of porn that is a worthy and interesting topic of it's own, but it is taking this discussion into a completely different subject.
77
Fortunate, you are trying to frame the argument with the assumption that "porn" means naked people fucking. I only wish that were true. I like naked people fucking. In fact, there is a large, albeit minority, percentage of pornography that is the depiction of ugly, abusive, non-consensual acts. I think that percentage has increased exponentially in the last fifteen or twenty years, although I freely admit I have no hard data. In my PERSONAL opinion, the existence of this element of violence and hatred is enough to make some women's objection to porn in general valid. It's like saying "I object to factory farming methods, so I choose not to eat meat" even though humanely raised meat exists. One of my problems with Dan, who generally gives excellent advice, is that he simply chooses to ignore the horrible reality of abuse and coercion in the sex industry. Once again (I have to keep repeating this) I am NOT opposed to porn or even to prostitution - but I am opposed to pretending that the industries, as they exist today, are not massively harmful and mostly based on misery and fear.
78
By the way, my guess is that soon this last comment of mine will be deleted for not being sufficiently "sex positive." That's funny. I've had as much sex as anybody I know, and I like it all ways. But suggest that men's sexuality might be anything but wholly benevolent, and I'm gonna get censored.
79
@69: That wasn't a confessional post, but a hypothetical one.

(I'll admit that I'm drawing on some real-life experiences, but with different people, not one particular person -- and I don't have any kids.)

(Also, why are you assuming that I'm a man talking about a woman? I deliberately made my post gender-neutral.)

My point is that those who claim they want "radical honesty" would probably be traumatized by actually knowing how other people, including their romantic partners, perceive them. For most people, survival and sanity depends on being blind to at least some of our flaws, and blind to the disconnect between how we see ourselves and how others see us (either negatively, or just in a way that's totally at odds with our self-image). So basically, what #60 said.

Life is a mix of joys and disappointments, and almost everyone is disappointed by their relationships and marriages in some degree. That doesn't mean that the bottom line is always disappointment, or that the disappointments always cancel out the joys.

But the disappointments are still real. If they're so bad as to overwhelm the joys, then couples counseling may help, but only if you want it to work. And many people are in relationships that they DON'T want to work, because they don't even like the person they're with, but they don't want to deal with the economic and practical consequences of separating. So they stay put in a situation that makes them unhappy, or even hate -- and truth be told, they may be right to do it, because it may literally be the best they can do (not everyone is awesome).

We all "settle" -- that is, we all end up with people who aren't really 100% what we want, and who inevitably disappoint us even if we don't have unrealistic expectations. It's very hard to foresee which of those disappointments are dealbreakers, and which ones are not. Sometimes it's no one's fault; sometimes two people just realize, too late, that they don't enjoy each other, don't like who they are together, don't like the way the other person's mind works. C'est la vie.
80
"Fortunate, you are trying to frame the argument with the assumption that "porn" means naked people fucking."

No, I am framing the argument that the general term "porn" tells us little about what he was watching, and that nothing in the OPer's letter specified certain kinds of porn. It was a clear, blanket condemnation of her BF watching ANY porn.

"In my PERSONAL opinion, the existence of this element of violence and hatred is enough to make some women's objection to porn in general valid."

And I say that's bullshit. Even if it is true that this element is increasing in general, that is no justification for giving all men shit about watching even the vanilla flavor of porn.

"It's like saying "I object to factory farming methods, so I choose not to eat meat" even though humanely raised meat exists."

No, it's not. It's like saying "I object to factory farming methods so I choose to tell you that YOU can't eat meat, even if it is humanely raised."

"Once again (I have to keep repeating this) I am NOT opposed to porn or even to prostitution... "

Great, but were not talking about you. We are talking about women who try to tell their husbands and boyfriends they can't watch any porn, period. You keep trying to frame this into some objection about what you do, and I already said I don't have an issue with how you handle it.

What I think is wrong is how the OP handled it, and how the women who try to tell their boyfriends and husbands that they can't watch any porn at all. That's what the discussion was about, not about certain kinds of exploitive porn, or about the circumstances under which YOU are OK with porn.

The OP didn't want her BF to watch porn, period. That's unrealistic and a matter of her insecurities. I said there is nothing inherently wrong with a guy watching porn (I never said there was NEVER anything wrong with porn), and that it was not a reasonable restriction to put on a man.

Again, the subject of exploitation in some segments of the porn industry, the negative effects that certain genres of porn may have, and other similar subjects are all valid and worth discussing. But it is not what I (nor I think most of the others on my side of this argument) was arguing. Nor was it what the OP was complaining about. And so reframing it in those terms is a strawman.

81
@79

My bad, I think maybe yer scenario was too similar to what a lot of my circle is going through right now.

:/ and I was too hasty in my reaction to read the post more than once to see yer gender neutral.

Good points, like yer argument.
82
@80: If we go back to the original letter, she is not in the least upset that he has in the past watched porn. She does feel as though porn--specifically jerking off to images of naked women not her, to leave aside the possible hiring a pro aspect for now--feels as if he's cheating. And well gosh... hey, isn't that what he implied when he said he never looks at porn when in a relationship? Almost like he completely bought into the "it's like cheating" frame.

It's not just on LW, our young person embarking on her first serious relationship, to understand how it is with men and porn in general and in particular for her guy, while her guy is allowed to be clueless. (Tuesday's LOTD had straight guys clueless about some aspects of straight sex, and no one leapt to post that they must be repressed and hate everything but missionary and be instantly dumped as unsalvageable, the way 3 does up there.) She actually first tried to address this *with her boyfriend*, who explained that he would never look at porn in a relationship because it would be like cheating on his partner.

So either a) He actually believes that. No, really: men are allowed to feel porn is dirty, and that porn is something they shouldn't do, and it's especially dirty if their gf is right in the next room waiting. Or b) He believes there is nothing wrong with looking at porn, but rather than have a grown-up conversation about how men look at porn and why and that he wouldn't do it when she's there and neglect her for a fake, obviously, he lied. I don't see why he gets the "Oh the poor baby" stuff and she's a prude. Even leaving aside the manners issues of both while she's there and with a real person, he did not cover himself in glory during this conversation.
83
@55: Nonsense. "Safe in a sexually hostile world"? Sure, the world is sexually hostile. I'm a large-chested blonde and nobody knows that better than me (I get whistled at in the grocery store like I'm a dog . . . lucky I haven't been arrested for assaulting one of these bozos yet). But you know what . . . I am not insecure about my girlfriend bringing home porn (straight, lesbian, m/m or poly). It's a way to spice up the sex life. Fortunate has this one right--it's flat-out insecurity and I say that AS A WOMAN. As for taste or politics . . . how long have you been reading this column? Not long enough, say, oh, the last two months, or you'd have heard Dan talk about sex-positive, woman-positive porn (both for and by women). And I'm going to guess you're one of those Insecure Irenes yourself--or you'd also know about sites like Xtube, where amateur porn is king/queen and videos run the gamut from poorly-made, "look, it's a badly-lit penis ramming into a badly-lit hole!" clips to twenty-minute videos from foreplay to lovemaking (and I use that term deliberately--once upon a time there was a French couple on Xtube who posted two or three times a month and it was very clear both of them had an exhibitionist kink, and weren't just in it for the down and dirty). There's not a whole lot for a woman to object to if another woman wants to show off her tits. It's her body and her right.

Queralinda: Sorry, I agree with Fortunate and as noted above, I'm female. Do I like those "busty bitches" who "get what they deserve" videos? FUCK NO. Do I enjoy porn? Bet your ass. It sounds to me like you're objecting to all porn while disguising your argument as being about objectionable forms of porn like snuff or coercive porn.

You know what the solution to that is? YOU ARE. Embrace sex-positive, partner-positive porn (there's a great selection of amateur stuff on Xtube, as noted above, and that's only a jumping-off place) and state in explicit terms, when asked, why you disapprove of exploitative porn--while making it EXPLICITLY CLEAR that you are referring to a subgenre, not the genre as a whole. I have to do this a lot because I fall into one of those subgenres--I'm a lesbian who can't stand "lesbian" porn where some bored-looking actress goes "oh yeah oh yeah oh yeah" and could as easily be giving a naked weather report as having sex. I object routinely to such porn while pointing people to women-friendly, lesbo-friendly porn and porn actors like Jiz Lee. You can too--if you can stop being totally anti-porn.
84
Re men and lying: I'm not arguing for radical honesty. I like white lies as much as the next person. (Also I like watching porn.) But the way to make social change is to be brave. Gay people stopped lying and came out of the closet. I don't blame them for lying, but telling the truth was better: for them, for the people who had been lied to, and most of all for the next generation.

Our culture has made a huge shift, and most of that is due to the brave people who stopped lying. Women who hate porn won't face reality until they believe that any reasonable marriage-partner is going to watch porn.

I'm happy to do my part to get the word out, but the education campaign nocutename suggests @60 isn't going to do much good as long as so many men undermine it with overt lies.
85
@IPJ: A point-and-click game is one thing, a live person on the other end who can respond to "say my name" is different.

There are gazillions of live streams on the internet featuring women on web cams. You can usually watch them loll around half naked for free, or for something like $5000000/minute, you can purchase "one-on-one" shows in which they strip for you.

Does that count as cheating in your book? How about going to an actual strip club? How about if your man tips and gets a little extra attention for it? How about a lap dance?

In my opinion, live webcams are not cheating, although if I were a woman who caught my partner paying for them, I'd demand that he stop immediately and then call him a cab to the local strip joint where his entertainment dollar will go much further.

Everyone is free to draw the line wherever they want, but assuming web cams haven't been explicitly ruled out, I'd say they (along with porn) default to "not cheating".
86
(I have a fetish for tights and pantyhose.)

You and 40 billion other guys. You realize there's an entire sub-industry of porn dedicated just to guys like you, right?

If this is the problem you are seeking treatment for, the solution is to find a woman who doesn't mind wearing them for you, and be ok with it if she wants to take a break from them once in a while. If you can't perform without them, that might change as over time your aroused brain gets conditioned to other stimuli and experiences (her eyes, body, voice, smell, etc.) during sex. The first step, though, is to find a partner that accepts this about you.

And, your partners will have an easier time accepting this kink if you accept it yourself and are able to ask them for what you want nicely and without shame.
89
Mr Fortunate - Can't you die on a gay hill?

Ms Cute - Mr Darcy? Oh, dear. I had you down as being devoted to Captain Harville. But you put the thought into my head that someone I'm sure we could both name has a big literary crush on Mr Knightley...
90
"...then you may as well just start calling yourself spinster and get a cat now."

Thanks for that. I blew that swig of beer up my nose. Owww....

I'm really enjoying the thread about porn. My two bits:

Lying is never healthy for a relationship, and I would hope that SAD will find that the person at the other end of the "interactive porn" isn't a former lover. And to beat this dead horse further into the ground, good luck finding a guy that doesn't watch porn.

Having said all that, I watch porn for a variety of reasons. To be turned on, curiosity, self exploration, ad naseum. And there are times I want to do this alone. Not for some nefarious, deviant reason. I just don't want an audience. I don't feel like talking. Whatever. I'm that way about golf too. Sometimes I want to play with a foursome and enjoy the competition, interplay, conversation, and sometimes I just want to smack the ball around the forest and be left to my thoughts. The same can be said about nearly any activity. Sometimes you want other humans present, sometimes you need some space.

I think it's safe to say that SAD and her boyfriend are young and/or do not have a lot of experience in the arena of love and sex to date. Without all the details of the relationship to consider, I would argue that maybe the young boyfriend is just figuring his own shit out. I'm not condoning the subterfuge and lies. But from what I can divine from the letter, it's not hard to imagine that the boyfriend had no intent to harm anyone and was simply caught in the act of trying to hide his own insecurities. Maybe he's trying to achieve some sort of fluency in sexual vocabulary because he's totally into his girlfriend and wants to please her and is ashamed he isn't comfortable with his own understanding of himself and his own sexuality.

My advice to SAD, settle down and put things in perspective. If he's not interacting with an ex-lover, you have nothing to worry about. If you know this is true and you are still bothered by the situtation, then you need to have a serious adult talk with the guy about expectations and boundaries. If you can't do that, you're not ready for a sexual relationship.

And a comment on porn in general; I find that the people who are at ease with porn and their partner(s)' involvement in porn and sex in general, have.... surprise!... pretty healthy sex lives and relationships. Let me point out the very obvious here SAD... Dan's column exists because we're all interested in knocking down all the walls that inhibit open communication about sex and relationships. I'd suggest you start doing the same at home.

Bon Chance!
91
"If we go back to the original letter, she is not in the least upset that he has in the past watched porn. She does feel as though porn--specifically jerking off to images of naked women not her, to leave aside the possible hiring a pro aspect for now--feels as if he's cheating."

Clearly that's what she feels. And that's batshit crazy. Watching porn isn't cheating by any rational definition. There are lots of gray, blurry lines regarding what's cheating, but jerking off to porn isn't one of them. It's not cheating, it's her being insecure.

"And well gosh... hey, isn't that what he implied when he said he never looks at porn when in a relationship?"

No, that's him telling her what she wants to hear. I'm not saying that's a great thing to do, but that's what it is. Guys don't spontaneously offer up statements like that. That's the kind of thing that a guy says in response to a question about porn that's so loaded he knows what she wants to hear.

"It's not just on LW, our young person embarking on her first serious relationship, to understand how it is with men and porn in general and in particular for her guy, while her guy is allowed to be clueless."

This isn't just an issue of her understanding how men are. It's about her wearing her insecurities on her sleeve and him making a choice to avoid the drama. Again, not necessarily the best way to handle it, but it's understandable.

"It's not just on LW, our young person embarking on her first serious relationship, to understand how it is with men and porn in general and in particular for her guy, while her guy is allowed to be clueless."

And if you have been reading what I have been posting you would see that I defended her on that way up there in post 39 saying that it was not fair to call her a prude.

"She actually first tried to address this *with her boyfriend*, who explained that he would never look at porn in a relationship because it would be like cheating on his partner."

Yes, that the kind of things guys tell their partners about porn when the know they aren't going to win this one.

"So either a) He actually believes that. No, really: men are allowed to feel porn is dirty"

Sure, there are plenty of guys who watch porn who still think it's wrong. Preachers, republican congressmen folks like that.

"r b) He believes there is nothing wrong with looking at porn, but rather than have a grown-up conversation about how men look at porn and why and that he wouldn't do it when she's there and neglect her for a fake, obviously, he lied. "

Or he knew he couldn't have a grown-up conversation about how men look at porn and would be subjected to a guilt trip about how his porn watching hurts her feelings and makes her feel like he is cheating on her.

"I don't see why he gets the "Oh the poor baby" stuff and she's a prude."

I never said it was good that he lied, only understandable, And I never called her a prude or implied it. In fact I defended her against accusations of prudery.

" Even leaving aside the manners issues of both while she's there and with a real person, he did not cover himself in glory during this conversation."

No, he didn't. What's more, he didn't cover his tracks very well either. Perhaps he was doing it intentionally to tell her something in a passive aggressive way. All that is possible. It would be great if he would talk to her and it would be great if she would listen. But from her reaction in her OP I don't see that as being likely.
92
"Mr Fortunate - Can't you die on a gay hill?"

Excuse me????
93
Watching porn? Zzzzzz

Making porn? Now you're talking.
94
@queralinda. You are mixing up two distinct features of porn:

- what it depicts
- how it is made

What is more misogynistic, how the women are treated on or off screen?

There is "misogynistic" porn out there where the female performers willingly participate and are treated with respect when not performing.

And there is porn just depicting naked bodies and fucking where the female performers are coerced or forced to participate.

And I bet, lots of women who have rape fantasies like some of the porn you find so distasteful.

I think you have the right to steer your partner to non-exploitative porn and to ethically sourced meat. You have no say in which fantasies turn him on or force him to become a vegan.
95
@87 Boehner78: Did your mother's obstetrician by chance drop you on your boner-obsessed head on the day of your birth?
Stop if it starts to hurt.

96
Can we stop calling the LW crazy? Come on.

In the history of relationships, people have forgone things that upset their partners. The way people here are speaking makes it seem none of you would ever give up porn even as an act of love and kindness to your partner. Not as an obligation, but as an act of love. Watching porn isn't an unassailable right. It's something that couples negotiate. How can you even have a reasonable discussion if you start by assuming one person is nuts and the other has an unassailable right?
97
@96: "How can you even have a reasonable discussion if you start by assuming one person is nuts and the other has an unassailable right?"

If you spend five seconds looking at what is being requested, and on the one hand the kneejerk response is "asking for that is batshit crazy" and the other hand it's "it would be an act of love for you to give this up for me" it's a damned safe bet that on the merits, what is being requested is fundamentally unreasonable.
98
@Mr. Ven:
I mentioned Mr. Darcy specifically, because he, more than any other literary character, seems to be the young woman's idealized romantic boyfriend archetype: handsome, rich, arrogant (not without cause--so definitely sexy), and ultimately the big rescuer. Not to mention the appeal of Colin Firth's performance in the 1990s.
My type is actually a little more Captain Harville crossed with Henry Tilney and just a dash of Frank Churchill thrown in.

Yesterday was the 200th anniversary of P&P's publication, and two of my P&P-obsessed former students said something wry about Mr. Darcy giving them false expectations, as teenagers, about what a boyfriend and "love" would be like. I had to point out that Jane Austen wrote the majority of P&P as a 21-year-old, and she died a spinster, so what did she know?
99
@96 (wxPDX): Who's calling the letter writer crazy?
Naive and unreasonable, sure, but crazy? No.
Youth and insanity do share some characteristics, but the "youth" part is all I'm accusing her of. And she'll outgrow that.
100
I referred to her as batshit crazy, but I was speaking of her behavior in regards this subject, not an overall characteristic.

Ultimately I still think what I said in one of my first posts is the way of it. If a woman tells a guy of this expectation right up front before they get too involved then the vast majority of men will take a hike because it is unreasonable.

She might get lucky and get a guy who really doesn't watch porn, but the chances are slim. She might still get a guy who lies about it but the chances are much less.

If everyone was up front about their expectations then there would be a lot less issues over this (and a lot more single women).

But here's some advice to anyone thinking of getting involved with anyone else. If they ask you to prove your love by giving up something that doesn't actually cause any real world harm or inconvenience to them, run for the hills. Love isn't proven by such idiotic things. Love is proven over the long haul, not in a few minutes by some random decision. The person who thinks that giving up porn proves that the person loves them knows nothing of love or real relationships and is looking for some storybook romance that doesn't exist.

And if anyone has a problem with their guy watching porn then let any guy you are interested in know that very early on before they have too much invested in you. And be prepared for them to choose not to get more deeply involved with you. Otherwise expect that they are most likely going to lie to you about it.

It doesn't matter if it is right or wrong to lie about it because in the end you are going to get lied to regardless.
101
As to the "If you love me, you wouldn't look at porn." If we want to consider that a valid request, couldn't someone counter with, "If you love me, you'd learn to accept that I watch porn"? Why is it that whoever is involved in the more sexual behavior is the one who needs to make sacrifices?

Personally, to cut porn completely out of my life would be a bit of a big deal. When I'm single, I watch it pretty regularly. Not as much when I'm in a relationship, but I still do. Sometimes with a partner, sometimes with friends. Hell, we used to get together and have porn nights just so we could laugh at how ridiculous some of it is (if you haven't watched Dickheads, I both highly reccommend watching it, and not watching it).
102
I think the type of extreme porn that's being discussed is only problematic if the participants are actually being abused, as opposed to simulating abuse. There are many kinks and fetishes that have NOTHING to do with one's values or politics, and part of the function of pornography is to provide a forum for release and exploration without judgment or real-life consequence. For those who think this perpetuates real-life sexual abuse and misogyny, not too long ago Dan cited a study that said access to pornography actually decreased the level of sexual assault.
Making sure that the porn being watched is ethically produced is reasonable. Branding all porn unethical simply because it makes you uncomfortable is not.
103
I love the assumption here that everyone watches porn so wanting a partner who doesn't watch porn is super unreasonable. I don't. Of course I don't care if anyone else does, but it's not like people who don't watch porn don't exist.

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