Columns May 15, 2013 at 4:00 am

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219
Or, if you want the short reply:

http://skepchick.org/wp-content/uploads/…
220
@migrationist,

Did you read any of my post at 201 or tachycardia's at 213?

You seem to be missing the point.

I guess I'll restate the simplest one. How someone perceives their own sexual experience isn't an entirely logical equation. It's deeply personal, and that's okay.

Masturbation is a type of sex but most people don't refer to it as "sex" - do you feel that's wrong?
221
@mydriasis. I was not talking about a world without blowjobs either. Maybe I sounded sarcastic in my response which was directed at Hunter saying he thought a life of only PiV seemed small and drab. At first I wanted to disagree if only to defend those of us who air on the vanilla side. But as I wrote I realized our vanilla-ness does not limit us to PiV. While we both are not into anal, blowjobs are a huge part my husband's and my sex life. I guess I was really just agreeing with Hunter in an unclear way the irony behind how boring a guy's whole life could be without blow jobs. Small and drab without, fun with. Simple fix.
222
@tito

His original comment was (as usual) completely tonedeaf since no one was suggesting that they had a PIV-only sex life, or that anyone wants one.

That's what I was getting at.

I don't know anyone who has PIV only all the time. One time I had mono, so I did PIV-only during that time (don't want to be getting anyone sick!) and it was pretty ok, actually... but it'd be boring long term.
223
@tachycardia I'm with everything you said in 191 word for word. Until the P has gone in the V I have not had sex.
224
@mydriasis:thank you for explaining. 210 seems to outline your point. And especially thank you for 218. I have always had trouble with definitions of feminism in terms of how it applies to my own life. I guess by the dictionary term I fit. I exist in a very equal relationship with a man. We both work we both cook and clean and take care of our son. But because I am married to a man and am a mom I also fall out of the feminist definition in that I have "chosen" a path traditional women have chosen. And I put that in quotes because while I did chose to have a child I in no more chose the path of marriage and monogamy as it chose me. We found each other and this is what we both want together. Feminism as a word and concept thought up by women in the 60s that ONLY included those it saw fit to include needs to be updated. If it has been, and I have been too busy working and raising my son and giving my husband blowjobs to notice, you will have to let me know.
225
Migrationist@215, I understand what you are saying about using the term "foreplay". Those activities are part of sex, so why not just call them sex, instead of having a separate term? But to use an analogy, I love cherry pie. I love a flaky buttery crust, I love cherries, I love the gooey sugary stuff that turns cherries from something healthy into magically delicious cherry pie filling. But if I eat a pound of cherries, or even a can of Comstock pie filling, I still didn't have pie.
226
@tachycardia

DYING. I was literally thinking of the pie analogy earlier too, although I thought of apple.
227
But because I am married to a man and am a mom I also fall out of the feminist definition in that I have "chosen" a path traditional women have chosen.

What??? If that's your idea of feminism, then no wonder you don't consider yourself feminist. Betty Friedan wouldn't qualify by that standard.

And no, feminism, even just considering that exact English word, was not invented in the 1960s. It's a great deal older than that.
228
@Eirene:that's not my idea of feminism. MY idea of feminism is what I said in first part of that sentence. That I live in full equal partnership with my husband. The part you quoted is what makes me less feminist. I'm just pointing out I don't know the rules anymore.
229
My point is there IS no "feminist definition" that would make you "less feminist" for marrying a man and/or having children.
230
What about sexy non-porn videos for BBTB's kid ? That won't prevent him from watching porn, but at least he'll be aware of the difference. The work of Cindy Gallop (MakeLoveNotPorn) comes to mind.
231
Mrs Tito - There's plenty of support for your choices in feminist circles. It probably won't be unanimous or universally uncritical.
232
Calling separatists representative of feminism would be like calling Shakers representative of Christianity. Who goes around saying "Christians wouldn't accept me because I'm married and have kids"? NOBODY.
233
(Sorry, I realize that last comment was heterocentric, but so was the context.)
234
Um.... Eirene did you just ignore my multiple posts on all the people feminists don't accept? I actually didn't mention married mothers as one of them.
235
I started my girlie magazine collection at about 12 (39 years ago), when I'd peruse the drug store magazine rack after I finished my paper route. I'd have my bag sack on, and it wasn't hard to pop a Playboy in under the leftover papers. What a rush! Ah, the good ol' days.
236
mydriasis, I'm not necessarily ignoring every point I don't happen to respond to.
237
@ mydriasis, and others.... there is a problem with the 'some sex is sex, and other sex is not sex' definitions. it is this: a) i object to other people telling me i don't / haven't had sex; b) it seems arbitrary (and unnecessary) to draw a line on someone else's experiences.
some times when i have sex there is penetration, sometimes not. if so, i may be on the receiving or the giving end - it's largely irrelevant. but penetration is never a goal, or 'the point' of sex. i have had times in my life when most sex was penetration, and my experience was that i felt like i never got laid. it didn't count as sex for me.
if penetration is what makes it 'sex' for you, great. if not, that is fine too. but you can't make assumptions, or go around defining other's sexual boundaries.
238
@Eirene(229)If that was your point then say that because THAT answered my question. I wasn't looking for validation just clarification. And your attitude proves how non-inclusive you are as a human being so you aren't doing much for your cause anyway.

@Vennominon: Thank you for your polite response.
239
@sappho

"I certainly don't consider oral or manual sex as "sex" (for myself)"

"People can have their own ways of viewing their own sexuality."

"I understand that LITERALLY those things are sex. But my brain doesn't process them as the same as sex, my body doesn't experience them as the same as sex, so... I don't call them sex. "

"How someone perceives their own sexual experience isn't an entirely logical equation. It's deeply personal, and that's okay."

These are all things I've said in this thread. So how did you get that I wanted to define anyone's experiences but mine?
240
234 : Feminism nowadays is not just one group of close-minded academic old white ladies drinking tea together, although there's been a bunch of them throughout history. Yes, various feminist writers, activists and movements have been guilty of classism, transphopia, racism, imposing western standards on other cultures, the list goes on and on. But feminism is more complex and diverse than that, it has come a long way, and each and every feminist is free to support and associate with a local or international current that they choose. I'm pretty sure a simple google search will come up with loads of black/asian/muslim/whatever feminist movements, radical marxist feminist movements, queer friendly feminists who strive to support trans folks because they understand that being discriminated against based on one's gender puts us all in the same boat, feminist dudes and dude friendly feminists. They're all feminist and all have different approaches but that doesn't mean they can't rally and work together on certain common issues. Such as, I dunno, make sure people aren't treated any less for being one gender. Oh and in my own brand of feminism, that includes dudes not being expected to act all macho to demonstrate their "manhood".

The word you'll want to google specifically is "inersectionality". Usually "feminist" movements who use that word have less chance of being complete and utter crap.
241
Wow, lots of lesbians/bi women who have fully embraced straight male sexual privilege (which causes me to think maybe we should start calling it gynephilic sexual privilege, as the determining factor appears to be women as one's sexual object preference). Someone making out with you can simply be limited to that - that's perfectly okay and that person not wanting to do anything else, for whatever reason, is a legitimate choice. You're treading really close to rape apologetics and/or Nice Guyâ„¢ whining here. One sexual activity (I'd question the labeling of people who engage in sexual kissing with others of the same gender ID as entirely straight, but I'd also guess many would still self-label that way) doesn't imply interest, intent, or consent for any other activity.

Maybe consider whether you really want to make out with random strangers if you're getting burned like this a lot. I was over on a thread for an article relating to abortion yesterday, squashing MRA trolls who were furious that women had the option to continue pregnancies or not without consulting them - some because it's MY BABY AND YOU CAN'T KILL IT, some because OMG SNEAXY WIMMINZ GETTING ME ON THE HOOK FOR CHILD SUPPORT (some alternated their fantasy horror scenarios from comment to comment, really driving home the point that their central issue is with women having bodily autonomy). I had some advice for them: you can't control others' behavior, so if you're really worried (and not simply spinning elaborate, unlikely scenarios to rationalize your misogyny), adjust your own behavior to mitigate your worries (in their cases, by not fucking women with whom they didn't have relationships founded on mutual respect and trust and were on the same page with respect to procreation and for those worried about being stuck with child support, always using well-lubricated, properly-fitted condoms, and/or not ejaculating inside of women with whom they don't want to risk having a child). Maybe consider not making out with straight women/strangers if the DSG thing is proving problematic for you. All people don't exist to cater to your specific desires or needs.
242
@cockyballsup: a shitload of young guys to need viagra just to get it up with someone real

Is this even true? It sounds like hysteria to me.

I've no doubt a shitload of young guys use Viagra, but like many people who use it, they do so because they want a Super Boner, not because they need it just to get it up.
243
@albeit: Feminism=Equality

Is feminism about equality, or equality of opportunity?

Just because you've leveled the playing field doesn't mean the final score is going to be a tie. In many cases, guaranteeing an equal result will require handicapping one side or the other.
244
@240

Yes, I'm familiar with the term intersectionality as well as the fact that most feminists fail miserably at it. Much like anti-slut-shaming it's still more a buzzword than something that's actually practiced.

My best friend considers herself an intersectional feminist and as such understands why many women (especially the ones I mentioned above, and I do fall into a group that feminists are not inclusive of) reject the label itself, choosing words like "womanist" instead, for example.

She also respects my decision to do so, and so should other feminists. The onus isn't on excluded/stigmatized women, it's on women who identify as feminists to work on the inclusiveness of the movement. If you're doing that, then great. But I'm sorry, until feminism hits a critical mass of accepting women like me, I won't be waving their flag.
245
@seandr

You're picturing men and women as opposing soccer teams?

What a depressingly adversarial view of gender relations...
246
@midriasis - yes, i get the distinction between 'this is my experience' and 'this is what i call sex'. what i'm saying is that when you say that someone else's definitions of sex are dishonest, or when the social discourse tries to define what constitutes 'sex' at all, it becomes arbitrary and inaccurate. the simple fact that your experiential definition of 'sex' and mine are mutually exclusive should demonstrate this.
(and incidentally, also that we would be completely sexually incompatible) - actually, that is somewhat the point. if you meet someone, and like them, and the chemistry is good, etc. but you have completely different ideas of what 'sex' is, but don't stop to discuss and examine, someone is going to be disappointed - and it might just be when one person later states that they didn't have 'sex'.
i'm sure that you, like any rational person, would not embark on such a venture without explicit negotiation. however, the point stands.
247
@246

Actually it was someone else saying that my definition of sex was dishonest, not the other way around.

I commented that most people would consider someone describing masturbation as "sex" slightly dishonest by convention. *shrug* My point was that I don't see how the assumption of PIV (which people are contesting) is any more unfair than the assumption of partnered. Or is that not as common of an assumption as I thought?

Statistically speaking, it's unlikely for me to find a straight man who doesn't want to have penetrative sex as part of his sex life. So for me personally that concern is fairly moot.

I mean this sincerely: how does it hurt you, to have me define my sex life differently than you define yours?
248
@mydriasis:
Oh dear. Do you really not understand figurative speech? Let me try and explain.

The definition "feminism=equality" presumes a state of inequality that unjustly favors men at the expense of women. Such a state is often referred to in social justice rhetoric as "an unlevel playing field" because for most people (yourself excluded), the sports metaphor readily calls to mind a scenario in which one side has an obvious and unfair advantage over the other, and it triggers our natural desire to remedy the problem (i.e., "level the playing field") so that the match is fair. Note that the metaphor works with a wide variety of sports (not just soccer), with the possible exception of downhill skiing and snowboarding, both of which require a steeply inclined playing field.

Setting that metaphor aside, my question was, is feminism about removing any unfair obstacles that might, for example, hamper women from pursuing lucrative careers in software engineering? Or is the goal to have each year's graduating class of computer scientists be at least 50% female?
249
@seandr

Do you really not understand someone taking the piss?

I actually agree with what you're implying though.

I don't want to live in a world where there are 50% female firefighters. The idea that if the "playing field" were level there would be 50% female presidents and 50% female engineers is based on the (absurd) premise that sexual dimorphism is a magical quality that affects only the physiology that doesn't influence behaviour. Or to put it more simply: the premise that men and women would be identical (at least psychologically, behaviourally, mentally) if it weren't for sexism. It hinges on the debunked concept of a brain-body duality.

Still though, I think it's simplistic (and counter to any useful approach to equality) to view it as wins and losses. There are pros and cons to existing as either gender, the idea isn't (to my mind) to make the pros and cons identical, but to remove/minimize the more egregious cons (and I suppose, the exploitative pros that result).
250
Just to be clear - not that it will stave off the onslaught from what I just said - if you think that women and men currently have an even playing field, you are way off.
251
@247 - of course how you define your own sex life does not affect me at all, and vice versa. this is only a forum.
however, the moment we are engaged in a discourse about what constitutes 'real sex', we are constructing social definitions, and that does affect us all. therefore we need to differentiate clearly between 'this is my experience/preferences' and 'this is/isn't sex'.
these assumptions that you position as reasonable are directly harmful in several ways: by preferentially distinguishing some acts over others (and the acts over the relationships or persons involved) they invalidate the lived experience of whole groups of people, and they provide pressure on folks to behave in certain ways.
an easy and obvious example is that sited above (nocutename) of saying that two women can't have sex. another example is the increasing perceived pressure amongst young gay guys to have anal sex - this used to be 'for those who like that', where as now it is constructed as 'normal'.
252
@mydriasis: You can take all the piss you want, I certainly have no use for it. Ew!

Personally, I'm with the more radical feminists - women should forced into lucrative fields so that men like me can marry them, quit our jobs to focus on managing the nanny, and then enjoy an early retirement toning our asses in spin and yoga classes while they grind their lives away at a corporation until the heart attack inevitably takes them.
253
Okay look...

1. I never used the phrase "real sex". Let's just be super clear on that. So, the moment we are engaged in a discours about what constitutes "real sex" didn't happen.

2. If someone who is nothing like me is using me saying "I don't experience non-PIV as 'sex', personally" as a reason they need to go out and emulate me (to their own detriment!) then I had best sign a record label because I must have some undue influence on malleable people.

Me not experiencing "sex" with women as "sex" for me, doesn't invalidate the fact that lesbians experience that "sex" as "sex". How could it unless I had some magical ability to define the universe? The fact that other people call x or y sex doesn't make it any more sexlike for me, why does me not calling it sex make it any less sexlike for them?

3. If you're suggesting that straight-privilege makes hetero people instant arbiters of what is and isn't sex (for other people! strangers, in fact!) by nature of what we do most, then the increased pressure to have anal sex is a powerful counterargument to that suggestion seeing as fellatio is more common in the straight world than anal sex.

Also, you never answered my question. If you asked someone what they did last night and they said "had sex" when really they were masturbating, do you feel that's misleading for them to say? Do you think others would find it misleading? Is it wrong for them to feel that way? Is the presumption that "sex" means "partnered sex" damaging and invalidating?
254
@seandr

You do realize that in the radfem world your nanny's a man, right? :P
255
to be honest it would not occur to me to make any assumption about the number of people who were present or involved, unless the person speaking specified. i would not think 'oh that means they were with (one) other person', i agree that there is a difference between 1 and 2 or 3 person sex, just as there is a difference between sex with men and sex with women - but i wouldn't say either of those is 'not sex' either. i agree that there is a general convention in some circles to differentiate based on the number of people involved, i don't know how useful it is, but i've come across it much more often than a differentiation based on act/s.
having said that, i do recall listening to a serious conversation in a bar about whether you had to be naked, or touching, for it to be 'sex'... to which the answer is, of course, it all depends...

no, i don't think it's 'misleading'. i don't see how it could possibly be 'misleading'. and the idea that you get to arbitrate on someone else's sexual experience is damaging and invalidating.
256
@sappho

I just don't understand why it's so one-directional for you.

If someone views something I did as sex, and I didn't view it as sex, that doesn't bother me.

If I did something I consider sex, and someone else says they don't see that as sex, that doesn't bother me either.

I don't consider masturbation sex (for myself) but I don't consider it "invalidating" to me, if someone else does.

Why does what I do/not view as sex have the power to hurt other people who feel the opposite, but not the other way around?
257
@mydriasis: I like your avatar.
258
@sappho, I explicitly stated that I was referring only to my own experiences, and that it had NOTHING to do with whether other people doing those same acts were having "real sex". I also explained that my personal definition of sex was based on the way I interact with the other person, not on arbitrarily classifying specific acts as "sex" or "not sex". How do you determine whether you have had sex? The idea that we don't have a social definition of sex is absurd. There is a general, flexible consensus about what words mean, or we would be completely incapable of spoken or written communication. Clarifying to others what words mean to us when there is more than one possible meaning enhances communication.

259
@seandr

Thanks! :)
260
@DSG I usually agree with most responses Dan gives. However, this one has bothered me since last week.

I am a lesbian. A real lesbian. Just like you, Dan, are a real gay man. This is one question you should have left to a lesbian to respond to as gay men do not deal with this issue. I am deeply offended that you would suggest that gay marriage and bullying are more serious than this. And that the LGBT community has more important things to deal with.

Gay men are feared by straight men but lesbians are not taken seriously and are sexually objectified. We deal with different issues, Dan. I am in a serious relationship with a girl whom I love dearly. We hold hands and kiss in public. We dance at dance clubs and kiss on the dance floor. Because we love each other, not for the entertainment of men. But you would not think that when we have men staring at us with purvey grins on their faces, enjoying the show. Or catcalling as they drive by. Can you imagine straight girls whistling at you and your husband giving each other a kiss on the street? How can we expect equality when our relationships aren't even taken seriously because there's straight women proving them right, that our bodies are there for the entertainment and gratification of men? I mean, how can we possibly not need men? Lesbians can't have sex, there's no penis, right? That's what we hear all the time. And these women are proving them right. That lesbian relationships are just entertainment for them.

Dan, we aren't equal to the heterosexual community, but we are also not equal because we're women. Yes, equality is of the utmost importance. But without this simple right, to exist as people and not as playthings for men, how can lesbians hope to gain any footing in this race for equality?

Hailing from Canada, where it's been legal to marry for the last decade, legalities aren't at the forefront here. We aren't fighting for the by-product of inequality (such as equal marriage), we are fighting for equality, in itself, on the streets, in our culture and within the heteronormative patriarchy.

Which is fucking important as hell.

261
@DSG I usually agree with most responses Dan gives. However, this one has bothered me since last week.

I am a lesbian. A real lesbian. Just like you, Dan, are a real gay man. This is one question you should have left to a lesbian to respond to as gay men do not deal with this issue. I am deeply offended that you would suggest that gay marriage and bullying are more serious than this. And that the LGBT community has more important things to deal with.

Gay men are feared by straight men but lesbians are not taken seriously and are sexually objectified. We deal with different issues, Dan. I am in a serious relationship with a girl whom I love dearly. We hold hands and kiss in public. We dance at dance clubs and kiss on the dance floor. Because we love each other, not for the entertainment of men. But you would not think that when we have men staring at us with purvey grins on their faces, enjoying the show. Or catcalling as they drive by. Can you imagine straight girls whistling at you and your husband giving each other a kiss on the street? How can we expect equality when our relationships aren't even taken seriously because there's straight women proving them right, that our bodies are there for the entertainment and gratification of men? I mean, how can we possibly not need men? Lesbians can't have sex, there's no penis, right? That's what we hear all the time. And these women are proving them right. That lesbian relationships are just entertainment for them.

Dan, we aren't equal to the heterosexual community, but we are also not equal because we're women. Yes, equality is of the utmost importance. But without this simple right, to exist as people and not as playthings for men, how can lesbians hope to gain any footing in this race for equality?

Hailing from Canada, where it's been legal to marry for the last decade, legalities aren't at the forefront here. We aren't fighting for the by-product of inequality (such as equal marriage), we are fighting for equality, in itself, on the streets, in our culture and within the heteronormative patriarchy.

Which is fucking important as hell.
262
That mom definitely has it all wrong. You can't tell kids *not* to do something without telling them what *to do* instead. But, no kid wants to consume porn his mom has recommended for him, so therein lies the rub.
Mom can officially keep her no-porn stance. But she should find some woman-friendly, realistic portrayals of sex, in film, in photos, in stories (these things EXIST, try watching movies that weren't made in 'Murica for starters), and then...just leave 'em around. Leave them on the hard-drive of the computer. Leave them in some dusty corner of the bookshelf. And give your 13 year-old plenty of home-alone time. I'm pretty sure this was what my mom did. I thought I was so sneaky all those years. Thanks Mom!
263
For the parent, get the kid a subscription online to DOMAI, dirty old men assoc intl.

the gals are having fun doing the shoots, and lots of differnt types to satisfy the curiosity.

for the rest, start reading ladies erotica.
at least it isn't all based on violence.
264
@22, I can see how that could be upsetting. I usually assume if someone wants to make out with me that he's actually attracted to me on some level. Must be unsettling to know there's sometimes an ulterior motive. My advice would be to only hit on women who are sober or at least not THAT drunk.
265
I would just like to say here, after skimming these comments, that Dan has possibly the most intelligent, disciplined on-line followers I have ever seen.
266
Wow. I feel like Dan really dropped the ball on letter #1. What I got from that letter wasn't "I am such a selfless person that I'm really, really invested in helping my cousin explore his kinks more," it was "my cousin is indirectly using me as a sexual outlet - talking to me about things that clearly titillate him - and it's awkward and icky because he's my goddamned cousin and I'm not interested in him or his kink, so how can I make this stop?"

And Dan essentially said "Oh, you can't. You have to just sit there and take it."

Ew.
267
We had a married neighbor who was always drunk when I saw her and never had her filter with her but one night she was just relentless. I didn't want to hurt her (at first, anyway) but I was clear: I'm not interested. Still, she tried grinding then she wanted a picture (!) of her "pretending" to squeeze my boobs then she tried spilling her drink on me. I warned her three times. When she lifted her shirt in front of me - then called for my husband to look!! - and proceeded to bounce them in my face, I hit her. Several times. Because I was the one being assaulted. I don't find it to be cute. I am not here for you to use as fucking foreplay, women should not assume other women are all harboring desires to have a girly make-out (and she was only ever like this drunk) and they damn well shouldn't think that we want (or need) someone to fondle our breasts to get our own men aroused.
I've never seen my husband give a guy a handjob while looking over at me and whispering "aren't you hot now?" because, um, no. Respect our hetero and monogamous choices by accepting the "no, thanks".. But if I were a lesbian and found out you used me for amusement? You were putting your sexy vibe out there as bait so you could reel in A MAN or worse, a stranger? Christ, how much lower on the POS cunt list can you get?
Get a man on your own, sweet little DSG. We have all seen you practicing so hard week after week that you should be good at it by now.
268
In re-reading my comment, it seemed it could kinda be read as "EW keep the gay thing away!"-ish and I do not to want to come across like that AT ALL. Lesbians - or bi - should never have their sexuality reduced to merely being for a man's use.Lots of girls don't want a man involved in their sex life at all so don't you, DSG, make any woman a party to something she isn't aware of. If you took pics of a girl in the dressing room and sent it to your boyfriend then that would be seen as wrong. This isn't too far off, I believe.

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