Columns Aug 28, 2013 at 4:00 am

Sail Away


Apart from the heterosexism: straight men have boundaries as well.
@310 apologies for the sexism as well as the heterosexism. I did mean to phrase it such that any person could initiate and any person receive those advances.
my Aunty Sophia just got cream Volvo S80 just by some part-time working online with a computer... websites -~~ www.Bay35.cℴm
@313: You know, Hunter78, we disagree and it's fine that we disagree. It's fine that people debate topics passionately- well, not personally and ad hominem like many did here, but passion is fine, good even. However, it's not fine when you start telling people what they can and cannot say to others simply BECAUSE you disagree with them. I think Dan (who no one seems pissed at for suggesting the LW pepper-spray her boyfriend twice ["whatever it takes"]- his suggestion of actual physical retaliation is what triggered the memory of my friend's threat, BTW) is just commenting on the enormity/ferocity of the thread. I concurred, and I don't need to be "innocent" or "aggrieved" to do so. Have a pleasant and productive Sunday.
For the record, I have no desire to reenter this debate. This is strictly about your comment @313 (and sorry for the two posts but the internet eat the other half of the first one).

Dan twice suggested pepper spray as a means of conflict resolution between the LW and her boyfriend. He advocated this means of recourse in a somewhat humorous manner while maintaining the need for efficacy in the matter of the LW not getting groped again ("whatever it takes"). Basically, many of things I got lambasted for Dan said as well and before I did. So, in light of this, does Dan not get to comment on the thread as well, despite being the catalyst for it? Just wondering.
@314, 317: My cousin's sister-in-law's neighbor's friend's daughter makes $6.70 an hour in a convenience shop.
DIRT could try being the PYT himself. Ya know, date some older men who might find him winsome, even if poz. After all, they've been around for the holocaust from the beginning, and know it can hit anyone.
EricaP @244 - i think i only said "I said NO". given there was barely space for the knife between us, and these were entitled (and sheltered) middle-class white boys.... it seemed enough. they didn't seem to view the word 'no' as having any particular meaning. i didn't think of it as a threat in any way, simply an illustration of cause and effect. if you violate my physical space, i will defend myself. not talk about it, or make a fuss. i don't see how that is particularly note-worthy, just common-sense.
having said that, i'm with mydriasis, i can't imagine being intimate or in a relationship with someone i couldn't trust with my body. i expect relationship violence to be pre-negotiated :-)
I didn't expect this thread to completely get taken over by the boob grabber article. Though I can't help but think that the knife wielding anecdote is to blame as most of the comments seem to relate to that. My 2 cents? Context. We don't know the couple to know what she is like and how she made the "threat", we also don't know how rough or showy the boy was getting. Without these details the best we can say is, "That probably could have been handled better." With the right circumstances and inflections that could have been the perfect response, we'll never know.
Dan, regarding your response to FEM. There are women who have a sort of a stream-of-conscious directing thing while having sex, not sure if any men do so you might not have experienced it. It goes beyond the squeeze, here rub there lines. It is a constant barrage of directions: pump three times then turn now pump harder squeeze this while pumping now turn and bark now arch your back....It's like having sex with your boss. That many directions while trying to give pleasure is so incredibly exhausting that it could give the sturdiest of erections cause for limpness. If FEM thinks she might be bordering on this (from her description I think this is exactly what is going on) then she should just scale back. Give some more general directions and then do some wiggling and shimmying yourself to make the general moves work for you. Then move on to advance direction as the relationship progresses. Women should be prioritized in the sack but just don't make it feel like work for the guy or there may not be any repeat action.
What's this a "ladies go first" crap? I thought chivalry was sexist and outdated? Why not switch back and forth?


When "ladies go" the party isn't over.

*cue everyone complaining about how PIV-centric my comment was like I give a fuck*
sappho, @231 you wrote:
>> they thought i was crazy, and my response unjustified...they had hand-cuffed me without consent, and were refusing to release me >>

@320 you wote:
>> i think i only said "I said NO". given there was barely space for the knife between us, and these were entitled (and sheltered) middle-class white boys.... it seemed enough. >>

So they handcuffed you after you said no, and maybe they pulled a knife on you? (Or were you the one holding the knife? I can't tell from "the knife between us.") At that point, you said "I said NO," and they let you go, but they indicated that they thought you were crazy and your response unjustified.

Do you figure they didn't understand why you would take a serious tone in response to what they intended as harmless playfulness? And what happened after that? Had they been your friends? And if so did those friendships change after the incident?
EricaP @325 - i had the knife. they were friends of my friend, it was at a house party, but i don't think i'd met them before that day. what happened next: they took the handcuffs off, very quickly. i think they got a real fright. they went around telling people i was psycho, but when people asked i told them i said 'no' already, but the boys weren't listening. and no-one could really argue with that, even though it was obvious that in their corner of the world females were expected to put up with it....
one of them is still in my life, not my personal friend, but still friends with our household - he treats me a bit like one of the boys, not like other females. the other one is still scared of me, last i saw, and not connected with our family directly.
i think they saw it as 'harmless fun', i also think that the sexual intimidation and discomfort of the girl in question was explicitly part of the 'fun'. they certainly intended to hold me against my will, and they certainly had a social construction that this was 'ok'. it was not ok with me, and wouldn't be for(i'm going out on a limb here)most females, and someone has to make that clear.
it was a long time ago now, i'd probably do things differently now, partly because i'm living in a different world. i probably would never find myself in that situation these days. but i still think that it was the most direct and simple response to the situation at the time.

Oh, okay, thanks for explaining!
All right, after like 60 comments, I just skipped to the end.

@Lolo: I'm sorry so many commenters are douche bags. I'm sorry for us women that defending ourselves against assault is considered the real threat against society. Again, douche bags.
" I'm sorry for us women that defending ourselves against assault is considered the real threat against society."

Look, since I can't say this really slow because I'm using a written medium to communicate with you feel free to reread it as many times as you need.

Women absolutely have a right to defend themselves, but it should NEVER be done in such a manner that it infringes on the rights, safety or health of their partners or anyone else for that matter unless we're talking about a life or death struggle. Somehow getting groped/ass slapped in front of one's co-workers just doesn't measure up to that standard.

I have no interest in remaining a feminist if every single one I meet online thinks women should all have the same violent knee jerk reaction to men. It's almost as embarrassing as some things you hear the more popular, crazy conservatives say about minorities.
Thank you, tito. I'm actually a guy, but I did my best : )
I'm a straight dude, but I'm pretty embarrassed by a lot of the straight dudes in this thread. The guy's behavior was clearly some sort of sexual harassment or assault. Defending against that with a threat of stabbing may be somewhat disproportionate, but the people claiming it is "YEARS IN PRISON" horrible are insane. I have difficulty imagining that any first offense of that sort would get anything other than probation.

To someone who is not inclined to take complaints of violating boundaries seriously, pulling a knife might the most unambiguous way to drive home the point that "THIS IS NOT OK". It's not a great solution, and I doubt it would work for the most part, but I think the more extreme comments against you are unwarranted. I'm also appalled by people who think that being threatened with violence for repeatedly violating sexual boundaries is in any way similar to people who threaten violence for not cooking well enough, or keeping a messy house. It's not apples and oranges, it's apples and jet planes.
Your situation was similar in nature, though probably more severe than the friend of lolorhone. It's just terrible that so many people feel like they can assault people like that and then hide behind the "It was all in fun!" excuse. Your situation was worse though, because of the restraints. If they hadn't released you, you would have been completely justified in stabbing them (may not have been wise because you were still restrained, but definitely justified). I'm glad it didn't come to that.
@332: Thank you, DrVanNostrand, much appreciated.
Huh. I must just have a grabby marriage. My husband and I are always giving each other little squeezes and spanks at random, unprovoked intervals throughout the day. We both know better (and respect each other enough) to not do it in public, and especially not around family or professional settings (unless it's the discreet and naughty sort of fondle). But to each his own, I suppose.
@328 & @330: tito and lolorhone: I think you guys rock!!
@332 DrVanNostrand: I agree.
um, FEM, there's an easy fix for that. learn to give a good blow job. suck him off. he'll perk right up again in no time. generally, it seems to work that way. (how could you miss that obvious bit dan?)
As a lawyer, I find one of the funniest things on the internet to be how everybody suddenly acquires a law degree while they're arguing over anecdotes on the internet.
Those are MINE!

Now I understand the divorce rate. MUCH more important to demonstrate your power- with or without the switchblade- than to keep a civil, happy relationship. Men are fascinated by boobs. How pathetic is it to be offended that your boyfriend is fascinated by YOUR boobs. He is already in a world of hurt but God help him if SHE upgrades that "boyfriend" title. Run, my son. Run like the wind.

Have women really became such byatches since my dating days?
@339: I'm sorry your wife lied to you about loving to give head, man (Savage Love, September 24, 2012, comment @233). I truly am. But repeatedly condemning and insulting all modern women for the actions of one (pretty much every other comment you've ever posted on The Stranger) is a perfect example of the fallacy of division. I mean, just logically insupportable. And you don't want to be all irrational like a woman, right?
@332: that's exactly the point I was going to make. There's a huge difference between using violence or threat of violence to keep someone from doing something *to you*, and using violence or threat of violence to make someone do something, or not do something that doesn't directly involve your own person.

You can use the "would you do it to a stranger" metric as a litmus test. If you said to a stranger "touch my body again and I will stab you", you would be viewed as someone who was tough and in charge. If you said to a stranger "do my laundry or I will stab you", you would rightly and justifiably be viewed as a dangerous psycho.

Another aspect to this to consider is that guys like figuring things out. For many of us, each woman's sexual stimulation is kind of like a puzzle, and most of us take GREAT pride in making the big O happen all by ourselves. Now, that being said, it's ridiculous NOT to tell someone EXACTLY what does it for you. You're really doing your partners a HUGE favor by explaining things. However, in the heat of the moment, it could make a guy feel incompetent. Consider talking about what does it for you before the clothes come off. That is a very sexy way to start things out. As odd as it sounds, your timing may be a factor. Also, you explaining exactly how things are going to go down takes some of the spontaneity out of the event, which can be a little disappointing for some.
To GTFO, I only check out this site every couple of months so excuse me for excavating a buried post. Your body, your boundaries, if the BF can't be taught to respect them DTMFA.

On the comment thread regarding a lady pulling a knife to make her point.
If you've reached a place where a credible threat of great bodily harm is a rational response, you need to be somewhere else. Get whatever help you need to get there.
To GTFO, I only check out this site every couple of months so excuse me for excavating a buried post. Your body, your boundaries, if the BF can't be taught to respect them DTMFA.

On the comment thread regarding a lady pulling a knife to make her point.
If you've reached a place where a credible threat of great bodily harm is a rational response, you need to be somewhere else. Get whatever help you need to get there.
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