Dan's advice to YARD and HARD is exactly what my boyfriend and I have been doing in moving towards opening our relationship. I used to be very monogamous and while sharing myself came pretty easily, I was very insecure about the idea of sharing my boyfriend. Taking it glacially slow, talking it out, fantasizing about it, setting little boundaries, and just being okay with tons of time passing has made me progress leaps and bounds with my comfort levels. Now I'm able to talk about letting him have sex with other people without freaking out, while I look for a girlfriend of my own, and hopefully one of these days it'll actually happen!

Dan tackles this mismatched libido question a lot. I think it's worth mentioning that people who are low-libido in one relationship could be high-libido in another. People are together for all sorts of reasons and sometimes sacrifice sexual passion for other virtues in a partner. I think it's likely that women do this more often than men, but who knows.

Just another reason to break up and find a better match.

"the culture tells the young and the straight that they must be monogamous (because sex is so important) and that they shouldn't take sexual compatibility into consideration when picking a partner (because sex is so unimportant)"
Dan I LOVE this turn of phrase. Sums the whole GDamned hypocritical mess around sexuality in our Puritan country up nicely. Thanks!
Then they blame teh gheys for the decline of marriage in the US. Blame England for unloading those Puritans off on America.

Excellent work this week Dan.

@6

It's not like penetrative sex is a magic bullet (so to speak).

Sure it's possible she'll turn into a once a day sex fiend, but there are plenty of women having good old p in v who prefer vibrators/oral sex/fingers/whatever and if she's getting that and only wants it once a month....

4 has it right, in principle. Reminds me of the Boccaccio story about 'putting the devil back into Hell'...

But it is a bit odd that the girlfriend is so worried about the pain from the 'first time'. I couldn't wait to get it over with, for that very reason. Why isn't she looking forward to the fun that should ensue after the first time? That's perhaps more of an incompatibility red flag than the current state of her libido.

The culture tells the young and the straight that they ... shouldn't take sexual compatibility into consideration when picking a partner (because sex is so unimportant).

Um, when did this happen? Far be it from me to prevent anyone feeling victimized, but "sexual compatibility matters, if you can't work it out break up now, this will only get more frustrating as time passes" is de rigeur mainstream advice from columnists and peanut galleries alike.

Also, that was what I thought after reading the first letter. I then get TWO letters on the theme of 'kinda exploring the idea of trying something nonmonogamous, and emotional complications very much" and Dan is like OF COURSE, very complicated, glacially slow exploration and only because you do both want to try this." Then why the monogamy snark on the first guy, whose problems were probably not going to be solved by an open relationship in which he got enthusiastic twice-weekly sex with one of the instant secondaries out there, and he and his girlfriend and his not-primary girlfriend all felt emotionally fabulous about the whole thing?

YARD was very wise to note the importance of years of intimacy and trust to fall back on when things get tough, whether that's an outside "for worse" or an interior emotionally-risky move. And LIBIDO has been with his girlfriend a mere 6 months, and they aren't happy with their sex life in a fundamentally incompatible way, and we have solidly established that is a "break up" rather than "open the relationship" kind of situation, so why the monogamy snark? (Seriously, Dan, you are supposed to be on board with rejecting "nothing fixes a miserable relationship like adding some more people to it!")

I do wonder how old Libido's gf is.; if he's in his early 20s she might only be 18/19/20. At that age lots of girls are clueless about how to get off and a lot of guys are clueless about how to get girls off (and vice versa). It could be her sex drive is really low but it may be low because the pleasure of non-penetrative intimacy has yet to outweigh the fear/guilt/whatnot. Regardless of that, it doesn't sound as though these two are well matched and the LW should end it so they can both find someone more compatible.

@9: I would guess that her fear of the physical pain is code for fear of emotional pain. It's a greater level of intimacy, both in terms of cultural associations with different types of sex and with it being the only one by which she risks being left with a baby while he goes off with someone more fun--that's got an emotional weight and risk to it.

If she doesn't feel ready yet to sleep with him, that's probably a gut instinct to which she should listen. I don't think that in itself is reason to break up, if the other aspects of the relationship (including nonpenetrative sex) are good, and he's willing to be patient until she feels more stable and confident about facing the emotional risks. Which doesn't mean they should stay together, because their drives for physical intimacy are seriously offset.

Kudos to Dan for the safety advice to LW #2 ("And no more flaming/stunt drinks, ferfucksake!") -- there are few places that are less sexy than burn units.

WTF does Dan mean by "the culture tells the young and the straight that they must be monogamous"?? Who in the "the culture" is doing that? Didn't Dan see Alan Arkin's Oscar-winning performance in "Little Miss Sunshine"? (he tells his grandson to "fuck a lot of women!")

This is similar to Dan's ludicrous claim that gay people make up only 3-5% of the population. Once again it's grain-of-salt time!

@15: Note that Alan Arkin's character was also the one who taught a prepubescent child to do a stripper's routine for her child pageant. I don't think you can say the character was giving advice that the culture thinks you should actually take. Also, notice that Alan Arkin told his grandson to do that- the culture is much more okay with boys sleeping around than girls.

@7: While p-in-v isn't a magic bullet, I think it's absolutely true that it's impossible to gauge her true libido level before she's had it. Maybe masturbation and oral don't really do it for her, who knows. On the other hand, if he takes her virginity and it turns out that she still has a ridiculously low libido, he'll have to break up with her and that can be kind of shitty, so I lean toward breaking up with her now rather than later. If she hasn't ever had an orgasm, that's a whole different story, but otherwise, it's pretty likely that her libido isn't going to change post-virginity.

I agree with Hunter78: Sex drive can change after losing virginity. Also, age would be a factor: it will decrease for him and increase for her over time. So if it's an otherwise great relationship, it may be worthwhile to wait it out and see if the drives match up later.

Also, I disagree with ending a relationship based on mismatched sex drives. No couple matches on everything, so it really depends on how important the mismatch is to you - and how it is dealt with.

If this was a couple in their 40s fighting as a result of mismatched sex drive, I'd agree with Dan. But I think this time he didn't really consider all the factors.

Rejection is emotionally tough. It's quite possible that when LIBIDO breaks up with this otherwise nice and compatible girl, she will take his "We have incompatible sex drives" as a criticism and value judgment and, wounded, angrily tell all her friends that he was a sex fiend only interested in one thing.

That's how the culture enforces the "sexual compatibility is unimportant" theme.

(While, "It's hard to feel sexy..." may read as female, I shall take Burned as male, given the rare opportunity to have a week of letters MF, MM, FM and FF.)

MF: This problem seems likely to solve itself; the cart seems so far ahead of the horse that the horse won't catch up in time even if it really wants to. Fighting about sex one isn't having yet may be the best way to ensure not having any sex about which to fight.

MM: I suppose there's something to be said for being able to survive trial by fire. It's possible something is needed to restore the balance in this relationship. I'd suggest that Burned get to see other people (perhaps those who like his condition) while BF remains chaste until BF functions fully to Burned's satisfaction.

FM: The only thing that seems odd to me is the tail end of Mr Savage's comment. I don't know why he'd expect them to confine it to one outside partner. I also wonder whether this sort of activity would lose adherents overall in a non-patriarchal society. It seems reasonable to suppose that some men wouldn't feel a need for punishment or humiliation if they had no undeserved status for which to atone, but there might be new adherents enough to balance or swing the other way. Perhaps Ms Erica will opine.

FF: I can see why Mr Savage didn't want to get too deeply into specifics on this one. There is so much room for plumbing here. The first thing I'd ascertain is whether this is meant to be a one-off, or whether the GF wants such threesomes as a regular arrangement. The letter gives me the impression it's a one-off FFM, and Mr Savage appears to nudging the reader in the direction of ongoing FMF (editing?). As HARD seems full of unspoken subtleties, it might be helpful to explore how both partners would feel about an FFF. Would HARD have the same issues? Would GF (assuming that my take of the FFM is correct that GF would be the Star of the encounter) cheerfully accept a supporting role in an FFF if that were what HARD would like? There's more, but I'll stop here for now.

@7: Does once-a-day qualify as sex fiend? I'll have to tell the wife that we're not normal.

Now, twice-a-day -- that's fucked up.

Seriously, we both get the shakes if more than a few days pass without some hot and sweaty.

Never done any cuckoldry, but I'm wondering if there is a way for these two to take baby steps in the real world. Have her flirt lightly with another guy when they're out at the bar one night, see how it feels. Dance with other guys, moderately sexily. Cause fantasy is only fantasy, and reality looks sometimes a lot different. Letting some guy buy her a drink is mild stuff, but it's *real* and that is a better test, I'd say.

If the pain of first-time intercourse is a serious stumbling block for a woman, the hymen can be cut surgically by a gynecologist with anesthesia.

@6: He's asking what to do now about it. If she's not crazy about losing it now or to him, his stated or unstated expectations would be unfair.

@7: You think once-a-day makes someone a "sex fiend"? Wow, you need to keep reading Savage Love.

Sounds like Burned mainly has a communication problem. If she just said, "Sweetheart, it was an accident. Forget it. Now come over here and fuck me silly because I'm horny as shit." it would go a long way toward solving their problem.

@17: "Also, I disagree with ending a relationship based on mismatched sex drives. No couple matches on everything, so it really depends on how important the mismatch is to you - and how it is dealt with."

They're young, I don't see issues with ending a relationship for that reason at that age. Once they've found themselves they can better make that decision.

It's funny, I still to this day have a hard time with the concept that unmatched libidos can kill relationships. What's the funny part? I was the higher libido in a long term relationship and ended up extremely depressed, angry, and frustrated over my constant rejection from my boyfriend. It came to be that I would reject him when he asked (actually would flare right up into extreme anger when he asked) because how dare he get sex when he wants to if I don't get sex when I want to? It was a hard thing to realize, that what I was feeling was resulting from mismatched libidos (and a major failure in communication). So yeah, it can harm relationships (but so does not communicating).

@8 - the interesting thing to me is that so much of our hetero-normative (for men) and monogamous code is enforced by women...and I'm sure competition has something to do with that too.

I agree that Libido should move on and find someone who is more compatible now, or at least after they try some P-in-V and other sex. Has he gone down on her yet and has she even had an orgasm? Sharing orgasms is sharing intimacy...if she's had an orgasm or three and is still kind of "meh...every 2-3 weeks" then yah, move on!

How do you tell the difference between low libido and being too sexually repressed to fully enjoy sex? When someone is young, isn't repression far more likely than low libido? If so, a couple younger than 25 or so should work on improving the enjoyment of sex for the one with low libido before considering breaking up.

I'm a "high drive" guy who married a "low drive" gal. Reasons are complicated, but I basically talked myself into it. We are both miserable 20 years in. Break up with this gal now. Find someone compatible sexually. Don't be me.

PS: Don't buy Allen's repression argument, however sincere and well-meaning. Break up, let her work on her "repression" issues, and if she resolve them, then you can date her again. Some people just have low libdo's. Move on.

I wish someone had been saying this 20 years ago, when I was discounting the sexual incompatibility I had with what was then my otherwise-perfect boyfriend. We did have a mostly-great marriage (nothing's perfect!) for a while, and I also think Dan is right when he has said that we shouldn't say that any marriage that doesn't end in death is a failure. A lot of good came from our time together. But the sexual incompatibility didn't get easier to deal with. It just got more and more difficult and was a fundamental factor in our separation. It's depressing how many people my age say the same thing.

Listen to Dan. Don't discount the importance of sex in a relationship. Don't hang in thinking it will get better. Cut your losses and find someone who fits better, and let her do the same.

@30 - I think the level of "turn out the lights, don't look at me, hurry up and get it over" becomes apparent. I don't think the sexually repressed can get into things with enthusiasm.

My wife is one of those people who didn't have sex until...like mid-late 20s (I'm not 100% clear on this). I was probably an almost 'hypersexualized' child - I "officially" lost my virginity (P-in-V) at 14, which was apparently on the front edge of the bell curve in the early 80s even for a boy. I had certainly engaged in all sorts of things short of PinV before that. So we, as a couple, seem to be WAAAY different.
But, my wife has since found her libido (not terribly strong) and mine has faded, and we meet nicely in the middle now.

I think she was a bit 'repressed' and that combined with a low libido led to no sex, but I think she decided she wasn't going to leave her 20s as a "virgin" and set out to learn about sex and got over the hangups in the process. We still aren't anywhere close to the edges of the freaky stuff I have done, but I'm perfectly ok with that - what is done is done with enthusiasm and everyone has a real orgasm or two nearly every time.

I think that enthusiasm is where you figure out if someone is repressed or not. I've been with GFs who were horny (libido) but repressed and they were clearly having a hard time with participating with enthusiasm...they wanted to do it without doing it.

Just an anecdote :-)

@32: If the relationship isn't otherwise good, then breaking up may be the best choice. And if the low libido person doesn't see it as a problem and refuses to work on it, then definitely break up. But helping someone get over sexual repression can be very satisfying. It can strengthen a relationship by adding gratitude on one side and satisfaction on the other.

@16: Truly, I thought of that, but the follow-up conversation--"See, the reason you have a low sex drive is we haven't had piv, so you have to give in and do that and it will fix you"--was not good. It could take getting comfortable with piv to get her more into sex--for which trust and stability and such are essential for a good number of people--and it could take the earth revolving around the sun a few more times, and it could be something that never changes, or changes when she hits 40.

If LIBIDO wanted to give that a shot--stay together a few more months, see if she feels secure enough to try piv, see if that brings a gradual change in their chemistry and intimacy--I don't see any reason not to try. But if she's happy with where things are and wants them to not change, then they should break up.

Time will bring change, but you don't know what direction. Sometimes it takes time for people to synch up, but after many months together telling yourself something will be different in future is usually willfully naive.

Mixed up numbering: my comment above refers to the second half of 16.

@36 IPJ,

So long as the dreaded "We finally had PIV sex, and then he left me" doesn't happen, then muddle on.

@23 Allen has it right, de-traumatize the hymen breaking with a visit to the doctor's office. Then, GO SLOW, lube as necessary, and never forget that the entire person needs to be stimulated during sex.

Peace

They're so young, they haven't been together that long - I just don't see it as worth it to try to figure out exactly what is going on here. If they had years invested in this relationship then sure, put in some real effort. But isn't this what dating is for? Not just latching on someone who doesn't actually repulse you and then going to immense trouble to pound all the pegs into all the holes (heh), but checking out a range of people and finding out what is important to you.

38-Married-- That dreaded "we finally had PIV sex and then he left me" story is mine. Except that with time and perspective, I couldn't be more grateful for it. Yes, the sex wasn't all I expected. Yes, my heart was broken. And then I went out and had more relationships, some good, some not so good, and I grew up, and life went on, and I found someone, and lived, if not happily ever after, at least reasonably so. That's a better ending to the story than the one where her long preserv'd virginty and quaint honour turn to dust and into ashes all his lust.

Which is all my roundabout way of saying that I wish LIBIDO had told us more about what these non-penetrative make-out sessions are like for both of them. Is she enjoying them thoroughly, coming from oral and manual, and just, as he says, has such a low libido that once every few weeks is enough for her? Or is it as I suspect that she's scared of much more than just the fleeting first time pain?

And him. Does he really believe that forming that intimate bond without penetration is so important that he doesn't need PiV sex? Is his entire complaint that these make-out sessions aren't frequent enough?

With the information we're given, Dan's advice is spot on. Six months is a long enough time to decide that they're not right for each other. I also suspect there's more to the story.

@30: You can't tell someone of that age to grow up, they have to do it on their own. It's also probably not going to happen with you.

quote:
You're young and straight, LIBIDO, and the culture tells the young and the straight that they must be monogamous (because sex is so important) and that they shouldn't take sexual compatibility into consideration when picking a partner (because sex is so unimportant).

Yes, yes, YES.

@10 So far as when the latter half of the above happened, it could be a holdover from arranged marriages, which were the default for centuries. Sexual compatibility was assumed.

Besides, sometimes the low-libido "problem" is just the partner they're paired with. That's not going to get better through time.

Burned's boyfriend sounds like a dick. He burned her and now he can't fuck her because she's damaged goods? I say fuck that!

Mr Hunter - I knew lots of same-sexer men who spent WAY too much time at the gym (both overbuilding their upper bodies and blowing kisses at Imnotahomophobes). Even allowing that to be on the probably-F list, I still think the second letter much closer to neutral in context. Some small portion of same-sexers may indulge in the same sort of arrangement as the third couple, but, lacking the gendered constraints, we do it with much better style and much less cringe-worthy terminology. (The commentariat here usually gets good marks on that score, but the LWs don't.) Obviously, there will be those who give this FTWL...

@43: I'm saying "sexual compatibility, meh" is not still assumed unless you are in a culture that arranges marriages, or expects no serious fooling around before the marriage you arrange for yourself. This is not the culture I see around me, it wasn't the culture around me when I was twenty-something decades ago, and invoking it as though the cultural expectation at the moment is that everyone is a virgin when they marry is bizarre.

Oh, and I'm also with those rolling my eyes at the idea that the culture tells young straight people that they must be monogamous because sex is so sacred. Yup, our picture of campus life is a bunch of strictly monogamous kids waiting for marriage, with nary a casual hook-up to be seen.

@17: It might help to try to tease out different aspects of "sex drive". I can identify at least four components off the top of my head: frequency, intensity, physical desire, and relational desire. Frequency is how often someone desires any sexual activity. Intensity is how strongly they experience that desire. Physical is how much of that desire is focused on psycho-physical sensations of getting off. Relational is how much of that desire is focused on interpersonal/relational aspects of partnered sexuality. A "high-libido" person who is mostly concerned with the psycho-physical sensations can handle that by masturbating a lot without needing to press a partner for sex, and a "high-libido" person who wants sex frequently but doesn't experience that desire as consuming or disruptive or dysphoric (or anything similar) i.e. has a low-intensity sex drive may be fine with infrequent sex, even if ze is mostly concerned with relational aspects. Either of these could make fine matches for people we might term "low-libido".

In comment 42, Undead Ayn Rand wrote: You can't tell someone of that age to grow up, they have to do it on their own. It's also probably not going to happen with you.

There are no guarantees of course, but it's worth a try if they've got a good relationship otherwise. Who knows, after a couple of months she might be riding his cock like a porn star every night and making the neighbors bang on the walls. People can "grow up" faster with a little encouragement and effort. And there's a broad range of severity of sexual repression.

In comment 49, IPJ wrote: I'm also with those rolling my eyes at the idea that the culture tells young straight people that they must be monogamous because sex is so sacred. Yup, our picture of campus life is a bunch of strictly monogamous kids waiting for marriage...

Ever hear of Oral Roberts University or Liberty University or Brigham Young University? You can get thrown out of those schools for having sex before marriage. Ever hear about the fight over abstinence-only sex "education?" Many parts of the US are quite sexually repressive. Not everybody gets to grow up in San Francisco.

Am I the only one who read Burned's last line "I just want a way out of this sad circle we've found ourselves in." as asking permission to break up? Because as far as I'm concerned, permission granted!

vennominon @19 Many women have better sex with a regular partner than with a one-night stand. So finding a particular person she likes having sex with is going to help make this sustainably fun for her. (Having sex with strangers to fulfill a husband’s fantasy gets old very quickly.) I don’t know how important the humiliation aspect is for them, but my own preference has been to leave that part out. To talk about the fun aspects, and the dirty aspects, and the nastiness of it all, but not to compare the men. Erections are fragile enough things that I don’t see the long-term benefit of telling someone they’re not able to please you. It’s entirely possible for YARD to do a hot-wife scene (as fantasy, and then as reality) without humiliating the boyfriend at all. Unless that makes it lose all its power for them.

I’ll add that agony @22 has good ideas for how to take baby steps in the direction of cuckoldry.

Re LIBIDO, count me with those who find it odd that he doesn't think to mention whether she has orgasms, whether she likes masturbating & how often she does so, and the like. He seems uninterested in and uninformed about her actual experience.

Re the last letter, I think HARD should think about which part of the scene she expects to be the most difficult for her.

Is it watching the PIV itself, in which case various kinds of oral or petting might work? Is it the presence of anyone else? (as vennominon asks @19, how does FFF sound?) Is there performance anxiety? In that case, maybe let your gf have a threesome with two other partners, while HARD has a nice night out with other friends.

Or are jealousy and possessiveness the main issues? In which case maybe HARD should just say no. Oral comes standard in modern relationships, but threesomes don't.

@51: They're having fights because of this, it ain't healthy. If she was more interested in sex, let alone PIV fucking, I'd be more likely to agree.

"People can "grow up" faster with a little encouragement and effort. And there's a broad range of severity of sexual repression."

There's no guarantee if that'll ever change... with him. I'm sure it could, but the best way to get her to rethink her assumptions is to give her the freedom to do so on her terms. Essentially, not the situation she's in right now.

@2 is so right on. When I was in a horrible relationship as a young woman with a guy who constantly wanted sex but didn't want to hear what turned me on, I thought I wasn't all that sexual (to my surprise, because my fantasy and dream life had always been pretty spicy!) -- X years later, I found myself pulling my hair out over a low-libido partner and my own desire to have sex on a daily basis.

As for the repression conversation, I've actually been with a repressed guy who I initially thought was low-libido. When the repression started breaking down? It turned out that guy was...slightly less low libido. I'm guessing, with no data, that if someone has a big sex drive and a matching serving of sexual repression, the net result doesn't look that much like a low-libido person. Kinks involving shame? Compulsive macramé? Energetic involvement in Christian square-dancing? All that I can buy. But I'd imagine very few such people just look low-libido. That pressure has to go somewhere. But that's just my idea.

I love, love Dan's take on Libido's situation, especially the disputed line: "You're young and straight, LIBIDO, and the culture tells the young and the straight that they must be monogamous (because sex is so important) and that they shouldn't take sexual compatibility into consideration when picking a partner (because sex is so unimportant)."

If you don't think straight American mainstream culture insists on monogamy, I suggest you try being nonmonogamous openly and see where that gets you. Or even just imagine being in a stable triad and then watch a bunch of network TV. Monogamy is the only way that's accepted, or even considered in the mainstream. Even staying together unmarried forever is a little iconoclastic for straight couples still, because all relationships that are "real" are supposed to be marching from meet-cute to a house in the suburbs with children and hitting every stop in between. Nonmonogamy is for freaks and perverts, if it's even mentioned at all. It's pretty tiresome.

And as for sex being so unimportant? That was what really made me cheer Dan's statement. I spent so long in that unmatched libido relationship letting him tell me it didn't matter, because sex didn't matter much (to him!) and feeling like he was absolutely right, I was shallow and probably a bad person for thinking about it so much when I had so much going for me in the relationship. That's what I was taught from a very young age, especially since I'm a woman. We live in our bodies, people, how they feel matters -- and now that I have one, my sex life is very important, thank you very much.

I'm shocked that no one suggested Burned and the boyfriend just change positions. Nobody has to stare at your burn in reverse cowgirl, honey, let alone doggie-style.

Since I, unfortunately, spent most of my early sex life making ex-virgins, I want to stress CREATE MORE PLEASURE THAN PAIN and GO SLOW. But first and foremost, the body part you're having sex with is located between you partner's ears. Create a safe, comfortable (at least for the first penetration; bleeding on a blanket outdoors without cleanup is awkward), fun (drugs/booze in small amounts are your friend) environment; save any "extra" surprises (drunken friends looking for your stash won't help the experience) for another time of experimentation. Work on closeness, don't forget to talk about contraception (and even what to do about "what if"), all the stuff that helps someone that is scared to calm themselves (and maybe even enjoy the moment). Showers and naked time together; anything to help your partner.

All of this is basic stuff in starting new relationships (or it used to be). Be care-ful.

The first thirty+ year old I had sex with was an absolute revelation: confident, caring, AND demanding/knowledgable compared to what I'd been used to. Someone had to help her get started.

Peace

@52: Say, you can't drink on those campuses, either. Ergo we should twenty-somethings, at least the vast majority of them, to be teetotalers.

The letter writer has had sex. He believes physical intimacy of some form important in a relationship. His girlfriend is going slowly because she fears pain. They are having oral sex. At no point does anyone cite "sex is bad" as a thing between them. (It might be contributing to the girlfriend's feelings, but there's tons of other stuff that could be. She's the only one who can get pregnant here, for example.)

Ms Erica - Thank you for your contribution. I had assumed there was a clearer distinction between this and the attitude of I-Get-A-Secondary-And-You-Don't, and therefore thought that the idea was to have multiple outside partners, even if only at a time. No biggie either way; it's just nice to get things clear.

There is little in the first letter to suggest that the girlfriend's libido will get stronger once she loses her virginity. They aren't having piv sex and yet whatever they're doing, she is more than satisfied with doing it once over three weeks or so (or less). So either she really has a lower libido, or she's not attracted to her boyfriend, or whatever they're doing isn't bringing her satisfaction and she has little interest in unsatisfying sex of any kind. But simply breaking that hymen and putting his penis into her vagina is unlikely to make things better for them. And either she's pathologically (and somewhat unreasonably)afraid of the pain she thinks is going to accompany first piv intercourse, or she's using that as an excuse. She may have a low libido; she may have a low libido with him, she may be young and still full of hangups, inhibition, and shame, which she'll get over in 10 or so years.

But

They're very young. They've been dating for six months. It sounds like a case of incompatibility to me.

Thanks for another great week's worth of advice, Dan!
I agree: LIBIDO and his GF really are sadly mismatched.
@BURNED: OUCH! That sounds like something out of the "Fireball" scene
from Revenge of the Nerds.
You have my heartfelt sympathy, and I hope your severe neck burn heals quickly.

Okay. After a fucking GREAT time at the beach and safely home again JUST in time for fall monsoon season--and Pacific Standard Time-- Griz is back, just in time for Thanksgiving! Where did 2013 go?!

Ms Grizelda - Wait a minute - there's another holiday stuck between Hallowe'en and Christmas? How inconsiderate of them!

Whether you see or don't see your troublesome relations, I shall wish you a stress-free next week and a half.

30 years ago when I was a virgin like LIBIDO's girlfriend, the things that made me want to graduate from petting and oral (him on me, not me on him) were: his gentle insistence, and my excited enjoyment. Also possibly my naive misunderstanding. I wouldn't have said that my libido was high. I would have said that I'd fallen in love, adored the sexual experimentation that we'd done, and wanted more. I loved that he was so hot for me. I call myself naive because I had the idea that my first time was going to be automatically fantastic, and it wasn't, but I still had an inkling that it could be wonderful and was still glad to have gotten into the game.

It's a shame that LIBIDO's girlfriend didn't write for advice since I'm naturally going to be better at giving advice to her, but since this has to go out to LIBIDO himself, here goes: Stop trying so hard not to put pressure on her. You think you're being noble and understanding. Instead, you're just being uncommunicative about your own desires, or you're communicating that she's not someone you want to have sex with. That's a turn off for sure.

As it is, she needs someone to take her by the hand and gently lead her in the direction she (probably/possibly) wants to go. I'm sure I'll get in trouble for saying that, but note that I'm not saying that all young women need dashing young men to initiate them into the wonders of sex. I'm saying that from what LIBIDO has told us in this letter, it sounds like this young woman needs a push.

I originally said that the two were mismatched and should break up. I still more or less believe that, but I've changed my reason for saying that they're mismatched. It's not a difference in their libidos. It's that, for different reasons, they're both too passive to get anywhere. She's passive because she's scared. He's passive because he wants to live up to his image of being a new age sensitive guy. Each is waiting for the other to make a first move.

Here's more advice for LIBIDO, or rather a question: When do these negotiations about PIV sex take place? In the middle of those 3 weeks when you're walking to the library together, or in the middle of one of those make-out sessions when she's feeling at least a little turned on? If it's the former, switch to the latter. During any normal conversation, tell her how much you want to have PIV sex with her. (Choose more romantic and sexy terms, but make sure she accurately understands what you're saying.) Then when she's really turned on, ask her if you can quick put on a condom and enter her. If she says no, then naturally you have to stop, but you both might be surprised by how different the question is depending on the circumstances.

You know, I'm not saying this is the case but if libido's ladyfriend doesn't even want to make out, but they otherwise get along, well, that sounds like me at that age. I turned out to be a lesbian. Either way, it doesn't sound like incompatible libido so much as no chemistry and I'm not sure there's a fix, there.

Hahaha...yes, well, when I was younger by a few years than LIBIDO and his virgin, I had an enthusiastic partner with whom I had pretty good chemistry...who has turned out to be a lesbian (and is still a good friend).

I always think that labelling people "repressed" is condescending - is it really any improvement over the bad old days of men calling women "frigid" because they didn't conform to the men's fantasies? It de-legitimizes the allegedly repressed person's desires and feelings by pathologizing them, and it says from a position of superiority, "I know what you really want, even though you don't know it." It sounds less harsh because it has a veneer of compassion, describing the person as a helpless victim of puritanical social forces. But it's still condescending and potentially manipulative ("If you were normal, you'd want to do what I want").

It seems to me that respecting both sexual difference and sexual agency requires us to treat our partners like adults capable of making and communicating choices - even when we don't understand or agree with those choices.

LIBIDO, another thing to throw out there:

If she says "Stop!", even if you're all ready to go, condom in place, even if you've already been PIV for a while, STOP. This happened to me a few times (with different partners), and created an important trust building point of her being in control of her own body. Calm, soothe, relax, maybe sleep on it. If you've waited this long, don't wreck the downstream possibilities. Again, TRUST is an important part of the "privilege" of being her first partner.

I also had a previously experienced partner, during our first attempt, experience vaginismus. Same deal; kiss, cuddle, soothe, and gently prepare for the next time. As I've written before, I'm of average size, so if you're larger than average, you will be stuck in first gear for a while (unless you get the equivalent of a "well hung" woman).

Finally, as always, remember that even ONE lousy quick penetration has the possibility of a lifetime of child for the female (and you).

Have fun!

Peace

Adding to what Married said in 71, kiss, cuddle, soothe, and ask if you can penetrate her with a finger. That can feel wonderful too without whatever fears she has about being penetrated with a penis.

@70: Quite. There could be a lot at work other than religious/social indoctrination and while the situation is "respectful", counting down the clock for someone to "get over" this shit (especially if you love them) isn't fair. They're young. Let them find themselves on their own terms.

Re: 57, Undead Ayn Rand: You have a point. If they're fighting, then he's pushing her too hard, or in the wrong way. He should emphasize that she can enjoy more frequent sex rather than it being a sacrifice she makes for him. If she realizes that developing her sexuality is in her best interest, if he takes the emphasis off intercourse and puts it on improving her pleasure, and if they get some help from books and videos, they could fix this problem and save the relationship. But if they don't make some progress in a reasonable amount of time, then I agree they should break up.

In 58, Undead Ayn Rand wrote: ...the best way to get her to rethink her assumptions is to give her the freedom to do so on her terms.

That's highly debatable. If he breaks up with her over sex, she's just as likely to react with anger, dig her heels in, and give up on sex entirely, or find a similarly repressed guy with whom to languish in a nearly sex-free life.

The low-libido girl being a lesbian trying to be straight does fit the facts. This would be a more extreme form of the being-with-the-wrong-person problem!

In 63, UR Doin It Rong wrote: I don't even remember my hymen. Took that shit out with an icicle when I was 13.

The perfect crime!

@75 gnot,

Using sheer hand waving: if you're a serious college student, you're busy doing everything BUT taking time with your SO. Six months wouldn't coordinate with the school year however. If she/they aren't living with parents, then things start looking more grim.

Being a full time student with a technical career in mind is a sure way to not have much fun time, and to be permanently on edge. The smartest ones realize that depressurizing regularly helps to maintain optimal efficiency; you know, doing things like sleeping...

Peace

In 70, Sancho wrote: I always think that labelling people "repressed" is condescending - [it's like] men calling women "frigid" because they didn't conform to the men's fantasies. It de-legitimizes the ... person's desires and feelings by pathologizing them.... It sounds less harsh because it has a veneer of compassion, describing the person as a helpless victim of puritanical social forces. ... It seems to me that respecting both sexual difference and sexual agency requires us to treat our partners like adults capable of making and communicating choices - even when we don't understand or agree with those choices.

I can see how you might feel that way, but what do you think is the proper response when you think someone may have been robbed of their birthright as a human being of enjoying sexual pleasure? Those of us who know how good sex can be should be encouraging less experienced people to explore their sexuality and, if they're unwilling or unable to do so, to consider whether their reluctance may be due to psychological problems. Yes, it can seem condescending, but how can you avoid that without sacrificing being able to teach anybody anything? Teachers often sound condescending, so should we end the practice of education?

It's only harmful to pathologize something that isn't a pathology. A person who's been traumatized to the point of being unable to enjoy sex is pathological. The causative feelings are illegitimate if they were inflicted on them by their upbringing (not their "choice") and are hurting their quality of life. You wouldn't say that a crippling fear of clowns is a "legitimate" "choice" that should be "respected" as a "difference." (Nobody's saying the inhibitory feelings aren't real and strong, if that's what you meant.)

Any girl worried about first-time pain needs to do a lot of playing around with dildos/vibrators first.

Start small if you have to, and work your way up to something the size of a real dick. Get yourself in the mood with some porn or erotica, use lots of lube, and slow down or stop if it hurts.

Fun times!

Oops, I re-read what I wrote @82 and realized that the "Fun times!" might be interpreted as sarcastic given the preceding sentence's reference to pain. The "fun" reference was completely without irony, as in, "Fucking yourself silly on a regular basis is fun, so go for it!"

@67 vennominon: Thank you and bless you! Yes--there are two official holidays, actually, counting Veteran's Day as well as turkey-day. Leave it to corporate greed to wreck the holiday season with the atrocity of Black Friday! The filthy profit-lusting bastards!
Anyhow, this Thanksgiving, I will be fixing gluten-free organic fried chicken, and am on the lookout for GF/SF brown/wild rice /quinoa to go with it and steamed veggies. I am also headed to my local co-op uptown for more of their wicked, kickin' awesome GF/SF tiramisu for dessert!!!!
I indeed, am heeding your sage advice this Thanksgiving--and am quietly hoping my good luck (so far!) extends through Christmas and New Year's 2014 and beyond: no news from my mental breakdown-inducing sibs is truly good news!

@67 vennominon, Dan, lolorhone, EricaP, nocutename, AFinch, mydriasis (although I know I drive you crazy), and everyone blogging: stay warm and Happy Thanksgiving!

@77: "If he breaks up with her over sex, she's just as likely to react with anger, dig her heels in, and give up on sex entirely"

Whuuuuuut? You can't believe that. As per what you're discussing in 76, they're having problems over this. It's not his responsibility if she wants to claim that she's "over sex" because of him.

@86 undead,

Oh no! Guilt must remain eternal!

Peace

Auntie Griz, I thank you for the Thanksgiving wishes and hope yours is as trauma-free as being with your family can be. I expect to hear more about your newly-launched impressions career in 2014!

@86: I didn't say anything about whose responsibility it was. You said she should be left to find her own way, which I took to mean he should break up with her. You made it sound like that would be in her best interest. I think it would more likely be bad for her.

You're suggesting emotional blackmail. If they're in two different places in life and unhappy, it doesn't matter if it's "just because of sex".

And seriously-

"You said she should be left to find her own way, which I took to mean he should break up with her. You made it sound like that would be in her best interest. I think it would more likely be bad for her."

The fights they've been having over this are far more harmful and unhealthy than breaking up over a base incompatibility. Don't be so patronizing. She'll gain more from dating more.

@88: Auntie Grizelda: Oh, I didn't see that you were giving yourself the gift of freedom from toxic family this Thanksgiving. So you truly have something to be thankful for. I think it's wonderful that you're doing so much to make your healthier--both in body and in spirit.

For LIBIDO in the spirit of @91 undead,

I want to stress again and again, every habit you establish in trying to be GGG to someone that isn't ready to understand what you (as in the both of) means in the sexual realm will not go wasted in the long run. Every small behavior I picked up out of necessity in dealing with the hand life dealt me prepared me for what came next; if I hadn't been through a crash and burn dumping because I had a very incomplete grasp on boundaries, and a well practiced "go slow" approach to sexual relations, I wouldn't have been prepared for the relationship that evolved into marriage and dealing with the trials and tribulations of becoming a working couple in the face of tragedy. (And joy)

Being young means exploration is required. Exploration in blind mazes means dead ends and starting over. Just do your best not to carry guilt.

Peace

LIBIDO's girlfriend is a virgin? It should be practically killing her to hang onto her virginity (which is a perfectly fine thing to do) in the regular close proximity of her hot boyfriend! Even with the fear of pain! Something much deeper is wrong there; they should simply break up, or else she needs to dig for some honesty about what's actually bothering her. They're so young, it could be a lot of things.

Burned seems to want out, period. Is boyfriend picking up on that and mistaking it for unresolved feelings about the burn accident? That could be why he seems so guilt-stricken still. Seems like time for major clarity about "I forgive you for the accident, really! Meanwhile, I'm unhappy about..."

Auntie Griz thanks for the warm wishes, and sending you my own in return.

Most of Dan's advice is great, but I still can't understand why monogamy is such a mystery to him. No, it's not that people should be monogamous "because sex is so important"! It's because the experience of both the relationship AND the sex can be really special, unique, and great when the partners are exclusive. Dan, I really think it would be helpful if you thought about monogamy as if it was Just Another Sort of Kink! Because you understand kinks. People choose them because they like them, and sometimes they have very little choice over what they like. Monogamy can be like that too. Not because it's so important to insist that nobody has sex with anyone else, but because it can be So Great when two people are only having sex with each other. For many people, monogamy is the best or only way they can experience the trust, freedom, and depth of connection needed to really enjoy sex or be themselves. Why is that such a mystery? If it's not that way for other people, no problem! But it is for some, and that's ok too.

@83, it doesn't read that way, but might be sickly funny if it did.

@LIBIDO

I don't know why you are holding on to this chick unless you are 15, 16, 17 years old? What's the point? Unless something has been edited out of the letter.

An Op/Ed pieces from the NY Times from a 35 yo virgin;

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/201…

My only beef: 'However, I was willing to give up a certain sense of pleasure to avoid feelings I feared: betrayal, emptiness, the loss of dignity and control.' All the men she considered having sex with were not one-night-stands, but men she had a connection for a period of time.

So, if a woman, knows her body and herself and makes a conscious and informed decision, how is she to lose 'dignity' by having sex with a man she knows and wants to? Why would she feel 'empty' if she deliberately chose to have sex?

Is it because her 'virginity' has value? And to whom? And how can any man tell or verify that she is a vigil? And if so, what does it mean? (And we have already discussed( in this active age) that most hymens have probably already been 'broken' and aren't any quantifiable measure of virginity?

I keep thinking what Sarah Silverman said "I think vaginas really, really scare people."

Hey y'all - this year there's also Chanukah between Halloween and Xmas.

Auntie Griz - the saddest thing about tiramisu is that there's no way to make it dairy free :(

@10 "The culture tells the young and the straight that they ... shouldn't take sexual compatibility into consideration when picking a partner (because sex is so unimportant)."

Um, when did this happen? Far be it from me to prevent anyone feeling victimized, but "sexual compatibility matters, if you can't work it out break up now, this will only get more frustrating as time passes" is de rigeur mainstream advice from columnists and peanut galleries alike.

Sure, it's de rigeur... if you hang out in fairly liberal places reading advice from fairly liberal columnists, like Dan Savage and Slate's Dear Prudence. But it's not mainstream mainstream.

It's true that not a lot of folks wait until marriage before having sex, but lots of folks still hold that up as an ideal. Which means that lots of folks are essentially saying either, "Sexual compatibility is unimportant to the future of your relationship (on either a relative or an absolute scale" or "You can determine sexual compatibility without having sex."

And I've seen plenty of people making arguments predicated on the former, responding to complaints of sexual incompatibility with everything from, "The only really important question is whether you LOVE each other--if you do, you should be able to make it work" to "What, she's not putting out enough for you? And THAT'S why you're leaving? How shallow."

Regardless of what college kids are doing these days (and most of those reports are exaggerated, btw--http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2…), promiscuity (for girls, at least) is not an accepted cultural practice. About 40% of Americans still think premarital sex is morally wrong: http://www.gallup.com/poll/8704/current-…

Also, @10: You ask, "Why the monogamy snark on the first guy?"

The answer is, it's not monogamy snark. It's snark about the culture's self-contradictory messages about sex in a more general sense--that it's simultaneously the Most Important Thing (so important that, if your partner does it with someone else, you should leave his cheating ass!) and Such a Shallow Concern (one that shouldn't trump love, y'know? There's so much more to marriage than that!).

Dan doesn't bring up non-monogamy because it's relevant to this guy's case. He brings it up because it's the flip-side of the cultural coin that insists that sex is utterly unimportant compared to the "deeper things" you share with your life partner. (He brings it up for comparison, to illustrate the culture's self-contradiction.)

@96 Suzy, Dan's not saying that people only do monogamy "because sex is so unimportant to them." He's saying that our culture pushes monogamy with the message that sex is shallow, unimportant, etc.--with the message that, if sexual variety or frequency is so important to you that you feel like you want or need multiple partners at the same time, then something is wrong with you.

You say, "People choose [kinks] because they like them... Monogamy can be like that too."

Yes, monogamy can be like that. But for many people, it's not a choice or something they do because they like. It's something they do because they've been taught that any other option is wrong. Maybe not explicitly, but it's hard to miss the "lesson" when you start telling folks about your second boyfriend, or your husband's girlfriend, and they give you That Look. (And some are taught that lesson quite explicitly, too.)

Monogamy is a choice (or natural inclination) for some people. But it's still something that's forced or pressured onto others. It's the forcing that Dan is trying to reveal as illogical with this snark (its contradiction with other messages in our culture about sex), not the monogamy itself.

Now I'm reminded of the episode of Daria in which Hallowe'en, Christmas and Guy Fawkes Day come to Lawndale. I'll probably spend the day conjuring which holidays are major or minor for various retailers.