@91: "It will be for men who want to be with other men. Not trannies, not queens, just MEN"

Or you could sidestep your personal ridiculousness and put some work in on getting over your internalized homophobia.

@104: Eh, even if they consider themselves a "special snowflake", are you going to say no to "Instead, I think we should ask ourselves if we stand for the same things and if we can become part of a movement toward freedom and equality for everyone" ? Of course you shouldn't. It hurts nobody.

@26 Once you have an abnormal Pap test, you're supposed to go back every six months until you have a clear one. Has she gone back? If not, she needs to, and she needs to go to a different doctor. She may have indeed have misunderstood her doctor - yes, it can take up to two years to clear up (tell her to eat foods rich in folate and keep herself healthy to expedite the process), but there's no reason she can't have sex.

Totally understandable if she misunderstood him because the diagnosis sounds very scary when you first get it, and sometimes it isn't fully explained clearly. Speaking as someone who's been through it all.

@26 Once you have an abnormal pap, you're supposed to go back every six months until you have two clear ones in a row. Has she? If not, she should - with a different doctor. She may have indeed misunderstood her current doctor, as it's kind of a scary diagnosis if you haven't had it before and don't know much about it. If it's not explained clearly to you (which definitely sounds like the case here) you can walk away thinking all sorts of crazy shit. This is coming from someone who's been through all of this - and had sex all the while. Mine cleared up WHILE I was dating and having sex with my long-term boyfriend (from whom I did not contract HPV). We joked that he had a golden healing dick.

Sorry for two differently-phrased comments saying the same thing in a row. Smartphonez be whut?

@105: L a w l, I just checked out their post-history. Full on Republican self-hating gay.

SAD, I could have written your question 15 years ago when I met the man who became my (now ex) husband. He loved the control he had over me. He was much older and I had to beg for sex. Beg for it. It's true this is just the beginning. As Dan says the fact that he wants to see you sobbing on the floor is a huge red flag. I spent the next 9 years in a state of near constant misery. Don't put yourself through it. Get out!

@26
What everyone else is saying, especially @80 milkshake. I'm also in the medical profession, and @milkshake is right: if she just has low grade cervical dysplasia, there is absolutely no medical reason she can't be having sex. None. As someone else mentioned, HPV can take a couple of years to clear up, but no reason to abstain during that time!

And RE needing condoms: you've probably already been exposed to HPV. 80% of people get HPV at some point-- and most never know it because men don't get screened (even men who've been "tested for everything" STI-wise) and women who don't get cervical changes from it (the majority!) usually have no idea they're infected. Your own decision what risks to take, but know that anyone you sleep with has a high likelihood of HPV, whether she knows it or not.

As someone who was bullied by an ex with a hyper sex drive (she tried to tell me that "average couples" have sex AT MINIMUM once a day) it's possible that SAD's boyfriend just get's sick of being badgered and just says in his head, "Shit, she's in fucking tears, AGAIN. I'll fuck her to get her to leave me alone..." It's possible that he doesn't "get off" on seeing you crying. He's sick of seeing you crying. Again.

DTMFA... because while you have the right to have sex every day, he ALSO has the right to NOT have sex every day.

@116 hello? She says in her letter she takes care of it herself most of the time and only comes to him when it becomes too frustrating. Also, because he seemed to have as high a sex drive as hers in the beginning, so it's on him. Also, he basically told her he always wants to be the one initiating and controlling their sex.
In short, your situation has nothing to do with the LW's situation.

That was @115

We likely need to differentiate between the "community" and the "movement".

I think SAD's boyfriend is all about the control. Maybe he does find her less attractive as well when she is trying too hard, but she is not the type that the "new" wears off and he is. Maybe she likes to be in control herself and able to seduce him and she's not because he's not open to it and it's driving her crazy.

Still, since they are 4 months into their relationship, and not 10-15 yrs in to a family with kids not to mention a house and cars and everything else in each other's name that they have half paid off - the advice given here to move on is very sound.

I agree about the moving on for SAD - But the question I have is would moving on help? or does the person who gets in this type of pattern have to fix this in their own mind as well. Other forms of domestic abuse patterns are that way. I think this issue has everything to do with control and very little to do with sexual arousal. Has she had similar problems with others in the past, has he? How old are these people? Is it reasonable to expect that that person who does want to have sex every day not only out there but that they would be someone attractive and would be compatible in other aspects of life too? Especially say for people over 50 is that not a lot to hope for? And then there us that “newness” aspect, how not to get fooled by that again?

Dear Sexless and Depressed,

OH MY GOD DO I KNOW YOUR PAIN.

Like 5 years of sexless marriage know your pain.

Like 6 months of no sex at a shot know your pain.

Like 3 letters to Dan Savage about it of your pain.

Never actually heard from Dan, but I'll tell you he is right regarding sexless relationships or, as he calls it, mismatched libido.

IT DOES NOT GET BETTER. IT ONLY GETS WORSE. DUMP YOUR BOYFRIEND.

Think of it this way - if it's this bad now? It ain't gonna suddenly get better.

From the time I've spent in this particular level of purgatory I can tell you one thing. He could be the greatest guy ever in every other aspect, but if the manipulation of your emotions by withholding sex continues, one day your rose colored glasses will come off and you will see him for the emotionally abusive asshat he is. And yes, withholding sex is considered a form of emotional abuse.

DTMFA! DTMFA! DTMFA! DTMFA! DTMFA! DTMFA! DTMFA! DTMFA! DTMFA! DTMFA! DTMFA! DTMFA! DTMFA! DTMFA! DTMFA! DTMFA! DTMFA! DTMFA!

Bless you. I've shed those tears myownself.

Dear Sexless and Depressed,

OH MY GOD DO I KNOW YOUR PAIN.

Like 5 years of sexless marriage know your pain.

Like 6 months of no sex at a shot know your pain.

Like 3 letters to Dan Savage about it of your pain.

Never actually heard from Dan, but I'll tell you he is right regarding sexless relationships or, as he calls it, mismatched libido.

IT DOES NOT GET BETTER. IT ONLY GETS WORSE. DUMP YOUR BOYFRIEND.

Think of it this way - if it's this bad now? It ain't gonna suddenly get better.

From the time I've spent in this particular level of purgatory I can tell you one thing. He could be the greatest guy ever in every other aspect, but if the manipulation of your emotions by withholding sex continues, one day your rose colored glasses will come off and you will see him for the emotionally abusive asshat he is. And yes, withholding sex is considered a form of emotional abuse.

DTMFA! DTMFA! DTMFA! DTMFA! DTMFA! DTMFA! DTMFA! DTMFA! DTMFA! DTMFA! DTMFA! DTMFA! DTMFA! DTMFA! DTMFA! DTMFA! DTMFA! DTMFA!

Bless you. I've shed those tears myownself.

prp @113, lots of wisdom based on hard experience... thanks!

@113 again: your post makes me think of David Schnarch's point (in Constructing the Sexual Crucible: An Integration of Sexual and Marital Therapy) that the person who wants joint-activity-X the least always controls the frequency of X. That can be sex, but it could also be dinner together, travel, or marital counseling.

Maybe I'm wrong and I too need to readjust my thinking as #113 says. Help me understand how someone like SAD's boyfriend (whether male or female) can do that to someone they supposedly love. And how does one stop needing what they need emotionally?

@125 I don't understand that either. What 113 said could work only with some people. I know that personally I could never readjust my thinking into not needing sex which is why people for whom sex is important should look for similar people as partners and vice versa.

Obviously everyone is the "sole owner of their body" like 113 says but that's not what this is about. If something is a huge part of your life and your partner largely doesn't want anything to do with it, and (leaving open relationships aside) you can't do this thing without your partner, the relationship can't work. It's the same thing with kids, if you really want them and your partner really doesn't, what are you supposed to do? Is one of you supposed to suddenly feel guilty and "reprogram" themselves? I think a relationship like that is doomed.

Who knows why SAD's erstwhile boyfriend behaves as he does? Maybe he's a sexual sadist who gets off on her tears; maybe he's an abusive manipulator who is on the path to making her miserable; maybe--I think most likely, but I could be wrong--he's just not that attracted to her anymore but feels compelled to have sex with her when she's literally sobbing because he hasn't. Whatever. We here at SLOG are unlikely to know and SAD may never know for sure.

But it doesn't matter why.

What does matter is what she wants to do about it. She's only been dating the guy for 4 months, and it sounds like she's miserable most of the time. Sexual rejection grows and festers and poisons both the relationship in which it occurs and the self esteem of the person who is rejected.
She should leave this guy and find someone who actually wants her.

As for Schwesterly Wind, I'll echo what others have said: you're not getting the full truth here. Either your girlfriend has a different condition, or she misunderstood her doctor, or she's making some "doctor's orders" up to avoid having sex with you. You're feeling rejected. She wants out. Think of this: there's no reason she can't give you a blow job is there? Or a hand job? Or talk dirty to you and kiss you and let you fondle her breasts while you masturbate? There are other ways to be sexual besides PIV and you don't have to feel sexually rejected just because your partner can't participate in that one activity with you. (Not to mention that no one here's ever heard of total sexual abstinence as a treatment for HPV with a "cervical growth"--but that's a different issue.) She wants out but she doesn't want to be the one to break up (perhaps she "doesn't want to hurt" you, as if constant sexual rejection wasn't as painful as breaking up with you and allowing you to find someone who wants you). Or she is having a hard time justifying breaking up with you because you're a nice guy she's just not attracted to.

@128: "But it doesn't matter why."

Exactly.

@113: Er, she should dump him long before they get married and stuck in your particular rut.

@SAD...this is your future with this man. It will stay the same or get worse, but it will not get much better. In time, he will find new levels of cruelty, all while proclaiming you are "hyper-sensitive" or "clingy". When he senses you are on your way out, he will become loving and affectionate long enough to convince you to stay. Once he is comfortable that you are not going anywhere, it will start again like clockwork. I am speaking from 27 years of experience.

128- nocute-- Agreed. I was going to post something similar myself. I was forming a list of possible explanations for scenario described in the original letter but realized that we all agree that SAD should get out of the relationship. Whether she does so while calling him a manipulative psychopath or while sensitively acknowledging that they have different needs is only dancing around the fundamental reality: They need to break up.

Still, I can't help being curious. I'd love to know the boyfriend's reaction when she says we need to talk. My money is on Content (130) being right. My advice for SAD is that she choose a moment when she's not on the floor weeping, a moment when they're not talking about how frequently they have sex, and that she calmly says that the relationship isn't working. She then starts making arrangements to move out or break up or whatever practical moves need to be made.

I'd guess that the boyfriend at that point will treat her to a romantic dinner, a lot of nice words, and some fantastic sex. He might even do it twice until she stops thinking about breaking it off. Then they'll be back where they were within a month.

Alternately, I'd guess that Boyfriend at that point throws his first punch.

But I'd love to be wrong. I'd love it if Boyfriend said "you're right. We have different needs and expectations. It's better if we split."

@89 your thoughts on the matter are so right it makes up for every stupid, manipulative, abusive at an eLeMentaL level dumb motherfucker who has ever replied in the 89th spot. It should give Schwesterly's mind a good enough understanding to take the advice given in reply 94. (BTW---excellent investigative journalism SW but you really should take 94's advice I've read stories about it costing some guys $30,000.00 and hindsight to realize that was the right advice)

************

and unless it was a fetish and a role play scenario where you knew she wasn't actually feeling the way her outward appearance showed or at the very least had explicitly communicated with you that that is what really does it for her @68

to take that scenario and see it as

"Or, maybe he just finds his otherwise dampened passions stirred by the sight of his girl on her knees, half naked, her breasts quivering as she weeps, begging for just one small nibble of his precious cock. I don't have a crying fetish, but if a woman tries that move on me, it's probably going to work, even if I'm not especially attracted to her."

only an asshole would be so uncaring about their partner's feelings, needs and wants.

anybody who doesn't want to at least talk about options in regards to what can be done so that their partner doesn't feel any way they do not want to, is probably an asshole, especially when the feelings involve them and the dynamic of their relationship. It's not so much that people are incompatible, because there can be work arounds, but staying with someone who doesn't fit your "give and take" ability to be in a relationship (as in the level of selfishness you require or will put up with) only works if one of you is the sadist and the other a masochist.

Unless they both identify explicitly as sadist and masochist, it is a very abusive and fucked up relationship and how either could claim to know about what loving another person is, is ridiculous.

*********

As far as the whole poly letter to the whole LGBT family equality movement goes, clearly those who are either the loudest are the most "in charge" or carry any influence in at least the online poly world cannot set aside their dickheaded pride or cannot curb their dominance (little d) to the point where they can keep it non-abusive hence the lowercase d in "dominance" as if it isn't consented, it's not a dynamic other than abuse.

Lucky for all the believers in the "right" way to have a relationship where they or their community enforces a dynamic, yep, those idiots, you don't have to form an alliance or be an activist, by far the best thing anybody can do is speak up when they see someone being an asshole. Any community or club that depends on "secrecy" shouldn't have abuse as one of the secrets, whether it's abuse by use of technology, medicine or authority, it's just a ticking time bomb waiting to blow up, it's best to cease and desist or diffuse such a foolish endeavor

but just like people know smoking is bad, you can't make someone quit, so unfortunately they may have to learn to hard way, that's life. But if you truly believe that wrongful discrimination should not be tolerated, it will only happen when we as a society don't tolerate it. Stupid fuckers that will tolerate it so long as it not against them or their loved ones cannot be forced to speak up, and it's wrong to then wrongly discriminate against them as it only perpetuates the problem. It's not OK to decide you are only going to speak up if you see someone being an asshole to someone who doesn't smoke, or isn't gay, or isn't poly. If your priorities are so fucked up that you blur the lines between freedom and liberty and wrongful discrimination due to something you don't personally agree with or would never practice their behaviors then you are an idiot, but hopefully you can learn

But there is certainly nothing wrong with a BIG UPPER CASE FUCK YOU to all those who reap the benefits of having freedom and liberty while you stand silent when it is withheld from others due to wrongful discrimination because YOU are part of the problem

Huh. I'm struck by how SAD says she is pulling a switcheroo, but somehow the male in the scenario is the asshole in both permutations. In the opening version the boyfriend is the asshole for pressuring her for sex. Then in the switcheroo version the boyfriend is STILL the asshole, this time for denying sex.

That just struck me as odd, and made me second guess the motives here. Why bother with the switcheroo at all? Did she really think that Dan or the people here would be sympathetic to the one withholding sex? Why bother with the "that guy would be an asshole, right?" when she knows darned well the answer around here would be, "Actually, no; wanting a lot of sex isn't a crime."

But taking the whole thing at face value: no, of course DTMFA. Never mind who has to be the bad guy; you two are hugely sexually incompatible, and you only managed to be together four whole months before the sex went to shit, your sex life with him is a lost cause. Gods' sake, cut your losses already.

I also found SAD's switcheroo confusing. I was reading and couldn't figure out what was going on or what was the point. I thought I'd misread and had to go back and figure it out. But I didn't think that the male looked like the asshole in both scenarios. If I take the first 5 sentences at face value and form an opinion just from them, I get the picture of 2 people who are incompatible, and I don't know much else. If the letter ended there, I'd probably advise something about better communication and compromise, definitely something about things they can both do so it's not "fucking on demand". I'd suggest the usual things to help a partner get in the mood, whether that's a candlelight dinner, helping with the housework, watching porn together, or the promise of the right sort of foreplay.

The switcheroo thing was useless and SAD's situation is way too obvious. Leaving is a no-brainer. Aren't most people in this kind of scenario long term couples with years into it and whose lives are built around each other including kids and co-owned houses, cars etc.? Wouldn't anyone who has literally nothing invested in such a relationship move on?

@121 (& @122): I have been there myself, and feel for you and SAD as well as for all others who have dealt with this much pain and abuse. You and Dan are right--the only way to make a toxic relationship better is to end it.
SAD, Coatelicue, et. al.: I hope you can quickly heal and move on.

@Dan (RE:PPP) - Community/communities? Are you really trying to force people into binary social constructs without considering the alternative (i.e. bisexual vs pansexual)?

Surely, you have considered the world where a person neither wants to be in a singular grouping (community) or several, the demi-nitian who is part of none until he/she/it/symbol becomes interested in being part of it (and may well choose to not join even if this person wants to).

Seriously dixn, if that were true, it was better advice than we thought.

I doubt that you are correct that it's your girl though, because you sound like a totally different kind of asshole, but wow you are certainly one too.