Columns Jan 15, 2014 at 4:00 am

Quickies

Comments

107
LW#1: if those babies were unplanned accidents then the husband should NOT have sex with the wife ever again. my first thought was LCPOS, then i remembered a dear friend. his wife stopped taking the pill. then she put holes in the condoms. then she got pregnant. when the baby was a few months old, instead of getting an IUD/pill/condoms, she started in on how she NEEDED another baby. they ended up divorced.
so there are often more than two sides to every story
108
@93, 94: People understand teasing. And the distinction between teasing with an established partner--where you understand each other's signals and boundaries--and teasing with a new partner, with the added frisson of whether things will get out of control.

What you and GAY want, though, is the thrill of laying down boundaries and watching them violated, by exactly the right amount. If the guy doesn't go far enough, he's gay. (And you'll tell all your girlfriends.) If he goes too far (or you decide he did the next day), you can call the cops or campus security and explain that you said no but he ignored your clearly stated boundaries and assaulted you. (Or if it doesn't involve the authorities, you can at least play martyr and tell all your girlfriends how he forced you.)

And other women hate that, because you are teaching guys that when they say "no" they want him to ignore it. In fact, he'll be gay if he abides by that "no." You are the one he can point to for "Sure, she said no, but her eyes said yes. She wanted me to push things."

Also, the behavior you and GAY think should drive a guy wild, almost touching the genitals but backing off, works well on sexual novices. It's all new, and how far it goes this time is an exciting mystery. How it will feel, and feel with this person, is an exciting mystery. Pull that on a 30 year old with several ex-lovers and he is going to be mystified at what the hell you are up to. Especially when you're giving verbal signals of "nothing below the waist" and physical signals of "my hand is in your pants; I totally want to break that rule with you" and the point where you're going to turn around and cry rape is a big mystery: that's not fun for a guy. (An example I remember from some time ago here: a guy climbed out of bed because the woman kept saying "No." She was mystified: she was naked in his bed, obviously her "No, no, stop, don't!" was something he was supposed to ignore, and sexily force her to submit to him. That a lot of guys aren't willing to play that game with a new girlfriend shouldn't surprise you.)
109
Oh for fuck's sake, have none of you ever heard of TEASING? GAY, you go girl. I am totally on your side about the way you tease and love to be teased. It is SO hot when you're both horizontal, heavy breathing, that slight moan and sharp exhale and your fingers go... right...almost...maybe.... The long, drawn out foreplay is AMAZING, whether you draw it out over an hour or over two weeks. Not everyone is focused on the goal line. You and I are sisters in control.

Ew.
110
MUM-- The mother/lover thing is an excuse for what's really going on. I can't be sure for what, but off the top of my head it could be:

-- He's no longer attracted to her now that the babies have changed her body. He's looking to replace her with a younger, more perfect model.

-- He's already replaced his wife for that younger model and is trying to hide that from her.

-- It has nothing to do with the mommy fat. He'd just like some variety.

-- It has nothing to do with variety. He's just sick of the responsibility that comes with being a father and wants out.

32-- Good point about being in the birthing room. It's no excuse, but in general, I wish there wasn't this assumption that all fathers have to witness the birth of their children. Some guys are going to be great coaches and find the experience meaningful. Some should be pacing back and forth in the hospital waiting room. It's not one size fits all.

46-- Yes, there are other possibilities, and no, I don't have proof. The above is my gut first reaction.

Whatever it is, Dan is right that marriage counseling is the way to go. I'd add that as in all cases where marriage counseling is needed, get your ducks in a row for the eventual divorce now. Some folks see marriage counseling as time to figure out how best to screw their partner. You want your bank accounts and lawyer ready.

Note that ancient Jewish law has it that a man not willing to have sex with his wife is grounds for divorce. Their having children together isn't. (Not that I think that tidbit will make any difference to how the marriage counseling goes, but MUM might find it interesting.)

A note on rough childhoods-- When kids don't get the care and attention they need and deserve, they often become manipulative or passive aggressive because those are the only avenues open. So while news of a rough childhood used to make me immediately sympathetic, now it makes me sympathetic and wary.
111
@110 "A note on rough childhoods-- When kids don't get the care and attention they need and deserve, they often become manipulative or passive aggressive because those are the only avenues open. So while news of a rough childhood used to make me immediately sympathetic, now it makes me sympathetic and wary."

Ugh, I don't want to go into this but- Yeah, my interpersonal skills aren't as well developed as I would wish, but I'm sick of being honest about it because all hear is how an issue or an emotion I have now is somehow a result of it. It means I'm constantly defending my emotions as something that's genuine and not a by-product of my screwy start in life. Which only makes me feel belittled, angry, doubtful and guilty which adds to my tendency to be somewhat distant which further cripples my relationships. So as well meaning and experience based your statement may be I wish you had kept it to yourself.
112
@104: "I can't believe I have to point out that [men] are not required to bring [women] to orgasm even if the [clit/area around a clit] has been touched. When will people get tired of telling [men] it is their responsibility to make sure [women] are sexually satisfied?"

Message received? No one's saying she OWES the guy a handy, and if she doesn't want to do it, that's her right. But turning someone on and getting off on their frustration is icky, no matter what you've got between your own legs. And when she accuses him of being gay because he doesn't beg her for release, she shows her true colors.

Also, your "if I realized I didn't like the guy after all" sounds suspiciously like "once I had the attention and validation I wanted". Only you can say which is which, but to me, all your "Will I or won't I?" games -- making rules and breaking them for the right guy -- sound like exactly the kind of game-playing that encourages adversarial relationships between the sexes (in a hetero context), and frankly reinforce the notion that "no" can mean "yes" with enough cajoling.

@111: "It means I'm constantly defending my emotions as something that's genuine and not a by-product of my screwy start in life."

That's a false binary, don't you think? An emotion, or a reaction, can be "genuine" and still be informed by damaging experiences you had in childhood. If you're reacting to innocuous things in a way that makes other people feel uncomfortable or unjustly treated, or are broadcasting a vibe that comes down to "Here are my buttons and don't you DARE push them", then it suggests that maybe you haven't fully processed those experiences and have work to do.

That doesn't in any way exclude the possibility that you're also being gaslighted -- that valid responses are being treated as a byproduct of crazy -- but a person can have disruptive behavioral issues that need to be resolved AND be on the receiving end of that, they're not mutually exclusive.

113
@112

@104: "I can't believe I have to point out that [men] are not required to bring [women] to orgasm even if the [clit/area around a clit] has been touched...

Message received? Actually, no. I don't think a man who initiates touch to a woman's erogenous zone owes her an orgasm any more than a woman touching a man's dick owes him a happy ending... and I consider that a kind of weird, gross way to look at sex. Every step of sex should happen because both parties want it to happen - not because any party feels they owe the other something.

Second, "But turning someone on and getting off on their frustration is icky" - no, it isn't. It's totally normal and natural to feel turned on when someone desires you, even if you don't feel, for whatever reason, like gratifying their desires.

That said, I do agree that it's taking it too far to assume the person who does respect your boundaries is gay. I personally think the LW just needs a reminder that not ALL guys push boundaries, and it doesn't make them gay. But I don't think she needs to change her MO of setting boundaries in bed - even if she frequently pushes or breaks them, as it feels right.
114
read you all the time, but lately its all tired. same stuff. and boring.
Actually silly...
Especially this last weeks posts...
115
@112 Yes, I do see your point about them not being mutually exclusive. It just frustrates me because it seems like every time I try to bring an issue up or discuss something emotional I have to go through a rehearsal with myself and then a preliminary hearing with the other participant before (or if) it gets serious at all. I admit my reformation isn't going as smoothly as I hoped, so thanks for the discourse. It helps.
116
GAY-- When I was 18 and working in a store, some kids came in who didn't speak English. Realizing that they didn't understand me, I raised my voice and spoke more clearly, loudly, and slowly while staring straight at them. They glanced at each other, shrugged, and giggled. A short time after that, I learned that my reaction, while stupid, is pretty ordinary. Lots of people jump to the (idiotic) conclusion that somehow language fluency is based on volume.

When I was in my early 20s, I was in a relationship where the sex was awful. Sure enough, I went around asking my friends if they thought the guy might be gay. It's almost nice to see that others still have the same (idiotic) reaction that I did all those years ago. There's something validating in it.

So concentrate on the part of your letter where you say that you know everyone is different, then remember that the differences are far far broader than just gay and not-gay. Look at your (idiotic) idea that there's something conservative about petting with a lot of guys and driving them crazy with your teasing. Look at your (idiotic) idea that you're present in the 21st century in your thinking that a man should be okay with being gay while still hanging on to the idea that there's something virtuous about keeping your underwear on while having sex.
118
Dear DND (LW4), Yeah, that happened to me too. Except we were 18+ years married. When he told me he wanted me to dominate him it was like a bucket of ice water. That was four years ago and I have dried off.

Is this the guy you want to be with? When you put together the whole marriage package and examine it carefully, does the evidence say that this is where you'd like to be? If so, there is a great big world of possibility between "become a dominatrix" and "pay a dominatrix." You find your place in that world by talking and listening and trying things.

Be fair. If your sexuality is important than so is his. He probably had a hard time telling you about his need to be submissive; he quite possibly had a hard time figuring it out for himself. You can live up to the trust he placed in you by not rejecting him. You can also say, "I can't see myself as one of those whip-wielding lady dommes." Then the two of you start working out what you can do. Keep talking!

One of the first things I told my husband was that if I was going to dominate him I would do it as myself and not as an "image" of a dominant woman. Then I told him to slow down his expectations and give me time. It has been slow but rewarding. If you are in this marriage for the long haul, you have the time to put into finding your balance.

Does he want a female-led family or does he simply want to be dominated in the bedroom? Does he want power exchange, where you are really in charge, or does he want to bottom in sexual play? These desires ask different things from you. Being the head of your household does not mean that you have to do the heavy lifting, but it does mean that you go from expecting him to take care of the (cars/lawn/laundry/whatever) to delegating that work to him. As the dominant sexual partner, you can tell him to make the bedroom warm and romantic, to have your favorite toys and lube cleaned and ready for you when you come to bed, to get on top and stay on top, or anything else you want. You can write a script telling him how he is to make love to you and because you told him to, he will be much more energetic. (Don't complain about loss of spontaneity: I'm not listening. After 22 years and 3 children I know that planned great sex is great sex. Period)

Be a partner with this man and go exploring. Honor his trust in you and ask him to be trustworthy as you find your own limits. Work together on this and you could both be surprised and delighted by where you find yourselves in four years.
119
I'm going to add to my wife's (@118) comment by disagreeing with Dan's advice.

My submission is a part of my love, and I could not give it to anyone other than her. Going to a Pro-Domme, or any of our Domme friends, wouldn't address my own need for something so central. Not without affecting the core of our relationship.

I don't know what DND's husband would feel (don't know if he could know at this point), but I would caution them that submission is not simply role play. D/s is intimacy.

It's worth exploring within your marriage before outsourcing it.
120
What's with the attitude that once you're over 25, you should immediately jump straight to sex with someone you're dating, or you're a sex-negative tease? Some people like to take it slow, some people are late bloomers, and some people just like to warm up for a while making out before getting to the sex. That doesn't make them immature, repressed, or controlling.

And obviously GAY needs a reality check, but a lot of the comments went overboard with the judgement considering her probable background.
122
@118 and 119

Too bad it's a bit late in the thread and nobody's reading much now, I found your posts very interesting and enlightening. Thanks to have made the effort to contribute.

@Really Now...

"Yeah, my interpersonal skills aren't as well developed as I would wish, but I'm sick of being honest about it because"

You don't have "to be honest" about having had a shitty childhood. Not to volunteer that you've suffered when you were the most vulnerable - it's not being dishonest, it's not defrauding nor swindling anyone of anything.

By not telling, you're not covering up any crime that you've committed.

So, there's absolutely no moral duty to inform others that bad things happened to you. Honesty is not going around proferring your other cheek, when the first one is still scarred or still bleeding.

What works for me, is to not disclose I had a shitty childhood but to professionals, to very trusted lifelong friends, or to show support to fellow survivors. I don't disclose to sexual partners.

I still don't deal too well with acute interpersonal conflict, but as long as everything stays on friendly or casual grounds, not telling means that I can open up to a variety of people without having to see them constantly second-guess what's normal and what's abnormal in me. I find that passing as normal protects me from being revictimized in adulthood.

I feel no urge to confess about having suffered, nor any guilt about deciding not to confess.

123
Dear Dan Savage,

My boyfriend always closes and locks the door behind him when he pees. It really bothers me and turns me off because it hurts my feelings. If he wasn't so prudish and such a prissy little puss, It would be a simple way of turning me on and arousing me for sex, to be a part of his pissing experience. He claims it's because he is pee shy. So I tested that theory; one day, I broke into my bathroom with a little screwdriver and found him peeing with his dick in his hands, standing there, grinning at me. So if he knows that I like it, and if the issue is about being pee shy, and not about a NO GIRLS ALLOWED MOMENT, then why can't he pee in front of me, especially if we have been lovers for five years now!?????

I would be grateful for your advice on how to get him to relax with his peeing moments a little more because I'm BORED. Thanks!
124
@66 - straight men do that same thing to women as well. It took me decades to see what was going on but now, in my older years, I find it insulting and frustrating to meet people when I work temp jobs or volunteer and when I strike up a conversation with a straight man, they immediately will shoe horn the ol' 'my girlfriend' this or 'my wife that', not because there's a reasonable and logical reason to mention them but to 'throw me off' or to 'let me down gently'. I look pretty young for my age (or so people keep telling me and won't let me forget!) and I have even had young men approach me and say such things as 'you know he has a fiancée, right?' when they saw me having a laugh or walking to the train with a work colleague. I don't bother being nice to men anymore because none of them want friendship. They just want to feel like every woman thinks they're god's gift. Hence, now, in my older years, I am now single, alone and don't see any chance of having someone in my life. It would be great if any of the men I've met in the past 5 years or so were grown up enough to respect a woman for what she had to offer: laughter, wisdom from many years and experience in life and friendship. I know better than to reach out anymore.

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