@312 alyssab
*"men respect men more than a girl's right to say no"*

This is the crux of the matter right here. Because women are not respected as autonomous beings, their wants and needs are not important as men's. It's as if these women are not being heard / their opinions don't matter.

Why does that feel so familiar?

@311, think it's that men respect another mans" ownership". Of a female. Ignorant men, I mean.. Keep yourself safe/ enjoy your youth, but be vigilant. Pity, eh?
That young women can't freely be in the world, without fear.. But it's how it is.

@291, a problem. Should men defend the fragile woman?
Brings up the whole analysis of what is the difference between the sexes? Of course, if the tough modern woman can stand up. For herself- great.
But in answer to your qu, no- I don't see a problem with males protecting females and children. As far away as modern culture gets, from this - to me, it is a legitimate expectation .. Doesn't mean men own women and children, or discount their agency..

@108: Not the heads, but other parts of boys' penises are routinely lopped off in the name of, well, perhaps purity, who knows. It's not any less barbaric just because it's *our* bizarre tribal ritual.

@293, hunter78, now I see the problem/ you've opened the wrong book. No, look at the " how to behave with the human female" book- not the " how to behave
With the female. Ape" book.. Though of course, if apes are your thing...

@102: You say "*ANY unwanted sexual advance is a problem.* ANY. Even the supposedly innocent kind."

I don't know how men are supposed to know it's unwanted unless they try. If they persist after you make it clear it's unwanted, then it's harassment. But if men took the first turndown for an answer and never asked again, I'm sure the human race would have died out long since. It's a fine line, and I'm sure it's hard for guys to see where it is also. And no, that doesn't excuse the true assholes.

@73: I'm female but like your term "gender liberationist" better than "feminist". I think some feminists want it both ways: to be equal to men and to be protected by/from them. I think of the Tailhook scandal in the 90's, where young military women were arguing that they were equal and could go into combat, but then needed someone to protect them from a classmate trying to put a hand down their shirt. The proper answer to that is, "If you don't move that hand, you're going to draw back a bloody stub!"

@318, don't see that that's having it both ways.
To be equal with men, but also to want to be protected
( under certain circumstances), by men..

@320 Hunter
'Sorry, ladies, it might be exciting to be fought over, but let's try to discourage male fighting.'

I can't figure out if it's *hero worship*, willful ignorance or some anachronistic mindset, but I'm beginning to think you are not in touch with reality. As in present day. This isn't Knights of the Roundtable and maidens in distress. Or worse female apes presenting their vaginas in estrus.

Do you interact with women in a contemporary setting? I feel like you live in some fantasy world. Perhaps CG movies, Sci-Fi lit or Sims?

You really need to connect to the contemporary world. Women are people, not characters or objects to be manipulated for your titillation or pleasure.

You need to get a grip. And come back to reality.

" The man's fear that a woman wants to dominate his life is a childish fear of the powerful mother complex, projected almost entirely onto a woman."
" ... It seems that the desire for sovereignty...[ over her own life]... expressed by ..[ women] ... is a desire that men truly listen and understand the experience of women and the oppression of the feminine in our world."
Page 100/. ' Hags and Heroes
A Feminist Approach to
Jungian Psychotherapy with Couples.'
Polly Young- Eisendrath. Inner City Books. Canada. 1984.

Hunter78, well I helped create six children, that what you mean?
No I'm not a creationist. Nor do I think men should fight over women..
And I do think / feel men can nurture and protect their children.
How could you possible jump to that conclusion?
What has happened for you in your life that you just are so
Hard? So unconnected to the spirit of understanding- not just with your rational mind, but with your empathy- a willingness to grow beyond such a gross manifestation of masculinity that you have exhibited here?

@301 Allen Gilliam--The problem here, Allen, is that you do sound like a ten-year-old, and not in a good way. Dan's request was for men to put a cork in it and just listen to women's stories this week. Just this once. For a week. Just listen. Regardless of how wrong and unreasonable one feels the comments might be, just listen still means...just listen, for fuck's sake. It's a matter of respect. I'm sorry that you couldn't be the better person, swallow one or two comments that bother you, hold your peace, and let the testimonials keep rolling so that everyone could learn a little something here without a man bleating about the unfairness of it all for once. The very fact that you chose this week, of all weeks, to argue that women are too sensitive about being harassed, means that you as much as anyone would have benefitted from listening.

But no, it was more important for you to air your grievances. Defending free speech indeed. You hijacked a thread that was supposed to be about giving people who are not you the chance to be heard and understood. Do you not see the sad, sad irony in that? We were supposed to hear about men who "understand and are standing up for [women] in their everyday lives." Instead, we got you. Fucking embarrassing.

I don't know how much Dan Savage pays attention to the comments thread, but I also hope he takes note and writes about what transpired here. As a woman, it was hard to even try to think of a scenario to write about, per his request, when the theme so quickly changed from his direction for men to listen and not jump in, to the unbelievable amount of vitriol and nonsense that has been spewed by a small group of men.

The comments section for this week has become its own microcosm of "yes all women", as instead of coming together in a non-confrontational way for a one-time women-only discussion, we were instead all subjected to the Loony Tunes ramblings of mostly one guy, who does not understand the concept of Let It The Fuck Go. I won't even write out the dozens of retorts that came to mind as I read reply after reply of his, since I'm not interested in encouraging another one of his delightfully brain-damaged rebuttals, but heaven help any woman who comes into contact with him, marries him, or calls him "dad".

My story is this: one time a guy named Dan seemed to really GET IT, and offered a nice space for women to talk about a specific subject with only those who could speak to it from experience invited to join in. It felt wonderful to hear this coming from a man, and I appreciated his ability to see an opportunity and take it. Yes, it all went to hell, but I do applaud the men (and women) who, like Dan, GET IT, and made a point of countering the vindictive bile coming from Neanderthal Land.

@318 - I'm glad you like the term, but I certainly don't mean for it to be used to *replace* feminism. As I see it, we have a need for a specifically feminist movement, a men's movement that is not misogynistic or zero-sum, and for intersectionality between the two of them, which I would call "gender liberationist."

I do understand and agree that there can be a certain amount of women wanting to have our cake and eat it, too...wanting gender freedom for ourselves while enforcing masculinity to serve us in other ways, and that's a problem.

But...for you to bring up military sexual assault in such a dismissive manner is something I find disgusting. We have a huge problem with rape in the American armed forces and HALF THE VICTIMS ARE MALE. It is not unreasonable, or asking for some kind of special attention or protection just because the women are saying, "hey, this is a problem." Our soldiers should not be each other's worst enemies.

Thank goodness Allen Gilliam showed up in order to argue with everybody's story and tell them how they should feel and what they could do better! Might I make a similar suggestion to Mr. Allen? If you cannot follow simple instructions (yours were to LISTEN, not speak) then please log off and at least try to do something productive with your day. Like kill yourself.

@329 - I think you're right, Dan fully meant for guys to respond to other letters in this thread, as per usual, and I DON'T SEE ANYONE COMPLAINING ABOUT THOSE RESPONSES. It's also pretty damn disingenuous of you to nitpick this while you are most DEFINITELY trolling the LW3 discussion. You started to do so, like seandr, in response to me using the word "patriarchy" because you're convinced that men are the REAL oppressed ones. You could not be more obviously in violation of Dan's request if you tried to be.

@331 - Hey. Telling someone to kill themselves is way not cool in any context.

My husband, Reverend Tap, has been following and staying silent on this discussion, as instructed by Dan. So yeah, in the spirit of what we're supposed to be doing with this thread, I want to give him a shout-out for that.

He also had some useful things to say on the importance of sometimes shutting the fuck up and listening if you're a dude. I'll do my best to paraphrase our conversation:

In this culture, both men and women grow up getting all sorts of messages telling us to, "speak up" and "let your voice be heard," and "stand up for yourself." However, what guys don't see (until someone MAKES them see) is that women are also getting a strong, conflicting message in terms of what the actual response is to us when we TRY to speak up; we are quietly and persistently silenced in a thousand small ways. We are told not to be "rude" by our mothers, told that we have an "attitude problem" by our teachers (I was once told "good job at taming your personality!" by a college professor in response to me becoming clinically depressed), and over and over again, told that we're being "bitchy" or "confrontational" if we actually match tone and volume with the men around us.

So, as men, you just really don't know what it's LIKE to be silenced. You are socialized, as this thread proves, to always feel that if you have something to say, you are damn well entitled to say it. It's a hell of a good thought experiment, if nothing else, to see what it's like from the other side.

@335 - you really don't see how you've violated the shit out of this in spirit? Wow...

And you can call my use of the word "patriarchy" (in relation to men listening women and women listening to men and how we're both socialized to speak) "far off-topic" if you like. You can also call a hat a circus clown. Doesn't make it so.

That "far off-topic" topic was started when seandr felt it ABSOLUTELY FUCKING CRITICAL, apparently, to make sure that no thread about men listening to women go by without an assertion about the need for women to listen to men. As if we don't already live in a culture that forces us to do more listening than talking, and as if that very phenomenon wasn't the WHOLE FUCKING POINT of Dan's request. Jesus, dude.

Also, can I fucking remind you that I used the word in reference to how patriarchal norms restrict men from talking honestly about their feelings?

You poor things. I'm just oppressing you so much.

"I find what I have so say more interesting than listening to what the women have to say, BTW."

Bravo. Just keep digging, dude. Just keep digging.

Men have greater physical power than women. Because of this, they've also secured for themselves greater political, social and economic power and held onto it for centuries. Of COURSE we fucking need male intervention for this to change.

Dan: Let's let the women have a conversation with each other about how men don't suck, and let's keep the guys out of it.

Women: Okay! So...

Men: WE NEED TO HAVE A CONVERSATION ABOUT HOW I'M BUTTHURT ABOUT FEMINISM!!!!!

Women: Um, all right, but...

Men: STOP OPPRESSING ME WITH YOUR MATRIARCHY!

Okay, here's a shout out:

To my male high school drama teacher when he saw me walking down the hallway, hugging the side of it (no reason, really, that I was consciously doing it). He said, "You deserve to walk right down the middle. Take up as much space as you deserve." I took it as a metaphor, and started walking down the middle literally and figuratively from that day forward.

To every male professor I had who called on me, who asked what my plans after college were going to be, who encouraged me.

To the male professor who asked me if he could write me a letter of recommendation for graduate school (it typically goes the other way around).

To my ex-husband who never once felt the need to mansplain anything to me.

To my 78-year-old father who, though he never lets my mother drive (which is probably wise of him), always lets me drive--so it's not a "lady driver" kind of thing.

To the male members of my book group which is run on a strictly egalitarian practice.

Although I, like virtually every woman, has had my share of street harassment or frightening encounters with male strangers, not one man I have actually known personally (with the exception of 2 of my friends' husbands) has ever treated me (or any woman in my presence) in a demeaning way, has ever made me feel unvalued, unimportant. No man I've known has tried to silence me.

I can't see any of them physically standing up to intervene if a woman is being harassed, but through their everyday behavior they perform countless small noble acts.

I find it interesting that OSW and Dan have women doing all the #notallmen-ing here on behalf of the men.

Though it is also kind of Orwellian that men who say the same thing about themselves that the women are being asked to say about them are automatically douchebags. That an assertion of innocence in the face of an accusation* is de-facto evidence of guilt. And that it's a fair proposition to expect someone to stop defending themselves because they've been requested to.

* And let's be clear here, there is indeed an accusation here. In this case the sequence of events (of which Dan left out at least one step of material importance) was:
1) Elliot Rodger atrocity hits the newsfeeds
2) Within minutes, a whole lot of rhetoric to the effect of "Gee, another Privileged White Male who thinks he is so entitled to women's bodies that he gets to kill the ones who reject him."
3) "Uh, did you forget this guy was completely insane? Not to mention steeped in MRA and PUA ideology. He doesn't represent the average Privileged White Male." (whence #notallmen)
4) "yeah, well it doesn't matter because #yesallwomen. This is just patriarchy taken to its logical toxic extreme. So just shut up, #notallmen douchebag."

I can't claim it went down exactly like that all over the Internet, but that sure is how I observed it playing out in my little corner of it. (And for the record, I kept my mouth shut at the time.)

Well, this is nice. The closest thing we've had to any real misandry in this thread is women saying, in essence, "I'm glad some women have had good experiences with men, because I've had none."

As for misogyny? We've had a call for wearing burkas, we've had talk of the supposed matriarchy, we've had "don't say 'patriarchy' even though we do live in a patriarchy," we've had stuff about how women wave their asses around like apes, and now we have vaginas "barfing blood." And that's just what I've noticed without a thorough combing of the thread.

I say again: misandry exists. It is a thing. But it sure as hell seems to happen a fuckton less often. Some guys sure are oversensitive.

@307: I didn't say "all men." Here's what I said: The fact is when men get angry at instances like the ones that I gave as examples of street harassment, it's typically because someone did something to their womenfolk. It's his wife, his daughter. No one talks that way to my mother, my sister. It's their possession that has been insulted; it's their property that has been disrespected.

I would say that you were intervening in something that had the potential to be rather more threatening than an incident of verbal harassment, and I would further add that you, yourself, have characterized your relationship as friendship. You were looking out for a friend. That falls under the same umbrella as "no one talks to my ______ like that."
You said: When I take action or feel an emotional reaction, it's because I care about the person. That's admirable, but it's not the same thing as stepping in and intervening when you see a stranger being harassed. If you saw a stranger beating another one up on the street, I assume that you would either try to stop the fight yourself, call for assistance to stop it, or call the police. Even if you did none of those things, I doubt that you'd walk on and think nothing of it. You would probably find it disturbing. Yet if a woman you didn't know was catcalled as she walked by and you witnessed it, would you say something to the man or men that did it? Would it bother you to think about it later? If it would barely even register with you, that is my point.

By the way, I have to tell you that when I was 19, I had two male friends, guys I thought of as big brothers, who already had their own appartment. I hung out there a lot, and felt like a grownup. At the time, there was a man committing rapes in the neighborhood of my friends' apartment, and there were police-artist sketches plastered everywhere. It became a standard procedure for one of the two guys to walk any of the girls to their car after a visit--the standard line was, "let me walk you to your car so you don't get raped and murdered." So one day I was visiting, and when I left, one of my friends, my "big brother" walked me to my car for safety's sake. And then he got in my car to listen to a song. And then he raped me. In my car. Which he'd walked me to in order to provide protection. Because he was my friend. He was one of the "good guys."
So.

Anyone who wants to pretend that those of us pointing out that men were not supposed to respond, per Dan, means we think and mean TO ALL THE LETTERS is kidding themselves. Obviously, we mean to the one particular subject. Obviously, no one has complained that any men replied on any of the other subjects. Obviously, you're grasping at straws, like some desperate lawyer nitpicking his way through a contract trying to find ANY reason to disqualify someone's complaint.

LadyLaurel nailed it with #341. It's been like trying to conduct a meeting while a few kids who are off their ADD meds are running around the entire time.

I had mixed feelings about the "yesallwomen" hashtag.

On the one hand, it's really obnoxious for anyone to claim they can speak for all women.

On the other hand, many feminists have been doing that for a long-ass time and at least now they're being explicit in their belief they speak for all women so there's that.

@343 phaedo

*checks vagina*

Nope, my vagina is fine.

"I'm opposed to the government getting involved in legislating good taste or politeness at the expense of free speech. It's a slippery slope"

Oh Americans... you know your slippery-slope fever dreams are disproven all day every day by the many countries that aren't you, right?

351- social activists always speak in generalities. Fucking duh. Got anything else?

@LadyLaurel

Yeahhh I mean, who gives a fuck about including marginalized women who are alienated from mainstream feminism AMIRITE?

P.S. The use of "duh" was especially appropriate considering the brand of feminism I'm referring to has exactly the cliquey obnoxiousness of tween culture. So bravo.

@359 - Yay, another attendant at the disingenuous vague statements party!

The yesallwomen tag has a specific meaning: not all men HAVE to be jerks in order for all women to suffer from those who are. That basic idea has nothing to do, as far as I know, with this weird straw man you're raising about other marginalized women.

Because there are many good men (and women) who have (and will continue) to intervene when they are aware of injustice towards women (and men), I want to make it easier (and a little more fun) to recognize some of the ‘subtler’ dialogue concerns, including per below.

Translation of Common Phrases, Heard Here and Elsewhere:

“repressed female” = I don’t get why you don’t want to fuck me

“stop embracing victimhood” = I want you to remain vulnerable, but I never want to hear you complain about it

“bulldog… aggressive female… bitch” = you are highly competent / ambitious, but you have a vagina

“primary process thinker” = you are passionate and speak your mind, but you have a vagina

“nurse” = you are female physician

“honey… sweetheart… babe” = you are too young / toothless to call bullshit

“that’s pretty good for a girl… better than I expected” = you are so good it’s frightening

“opportunity (X) is no longer available (because we gave it to a poorer-performing male colleague)” = you have a vagina

“you don’t /look/ like you have (Y) skillset” = you have a vagina and you’re not wearing a pantsuit

“you’re being histrionic” = I don’t like your perspective, so I’ll dismiss you by referencing your uterus

“are you on your period?” = I don’t like your attitude, so I’ll dismiss you by referencing your uterus

“women just can’t do (Z) job” = I’m offended you want to a chance to be equal, and if you fail, I will celebrate

“you’re so pretty, why would you bother getting so much education?” = I think of women as both conniving and dependent

“don’t be such a pussy (or girl)” = I equate ‘inferior’ men with a woman’s genitalia, and I’m probably a homophobe as well

“feminism… misogyny… misandry” = you subscribe to unspecified set of strong opinions about gender / equality, but I don’t know exactly which set you are referencing without us having a thoughtful conversation, so there’s a strong chance we will accidentally misunderstand each other, get offended, and then intentionally misunderstand each other from that point on

“not all men” = not all men are assholes, although there’s a fair chance I will defend the ones who are

“yes all women” = not all men are assholes, but there’s a fair chance I can’t recall good examples of the ones who aren’t

This is meant to be a slightly tongue-in-cheek, and please feel free to call me out where I’m more wrong than funny.

@259, don't know if there is a 'mainstream feminism'.. Feminism, as I know it- is about women being able to believe in and assert their equality, for each woman to find her own voice and use it... To recognize that her care- giving, nurturant qualities are of great importance.. To strive at her workplace to be treated according to her skills and talents.. To love well... To support her sisters in their growth-

Sometimes I really think men could do more.

Recently, I was waiting in a hallway of an apartment building in NYC to buy weed, from a drug dealer who lives close to my friend Gabriel. It was the top floor, and when the elevator arrived, four men came out. Three were black, like my dealer. I was looking at them, trying to see if my dealer was there, and the men saw me looking. So one said:

"Yeah, that's right, you see the big boys coming,"

and then another said "Watch out that we don't smack you, bitch."

They said some other nasty things as they left, that were indistinct. Gabriel's next-door neighbor, was also on the elevator. He was a white man in his 40s, and he asked me,

"Are you alright?" And I shrugged, since I was still waiting for the dealer, and since those men might be his friends,

"Whatever. They're just talking trash." I said this even though I was scared.

Just then, Gabriel texted me to ask if the weed I'd scored was any good. Here's what I said, and what he said, etc.
----------------------------
Gabe: Hey did [REDACTED] have good shit? I'm debating restocking when I get back.

Me: I don't know a bunch of his friends just threatened to smack me

Gabe: Why?!?!

Me: I was looking at them intently, trying to figure out if [REDACTED] was there.

Gabe: Did you explain?

Me: Nothing to explain, I was looking at three men

Me: 'That's righ', you see the big boys coming" and so on, I wasn't going to be like "Hay you know where [REDACTED] at?"

Gabe: Yes but you were looking for someone in particular who they may have known, did you give them any reason to react like they did? Any provocation or suspicion? I only ask because people who frequent that hallway have always been helpful.

Gabe: Did Andre come?

Me: Not yet, he says soon. Also this was in front of your neighbor.

Gabe: Damn. Be careful, please avoid them.

Gabe: Can [REDACTED] deliver to you?

(I cut a few messages here, essentially Gabriel tells me to go to a different part of the building to wait for the dealer, [REDACTED].)

Gabe: You're his customer, it's in his best interest to protect you. It's still light out and he said he's on his way, I think you'll be playing it safe walking in with him.

Gabe: I'm so sorry this happened.
----------------------

I don't have an expectation that random men should stick up for me for no good reason. I'm not waiting for white knights to come save me from the consequences of my actions. Yes, yes- I was buying *weed* that day, that's why I was there. But there was no way these men could have known that, and this is a building that actual friends of mine live in.

At that moment I was literally nothing more than a woman in a hallway, waiting to meet someone. The fact that I was there and had the audacity to look at some men funny gave them the right to speak to me in such a disgusting manner. And the fact that these men had a right to speak to me in that way (or at least, society agrees that they do) was why the neighbor couldn't offer me more than a sympathetic murmur and my friend Gabriel had the audacity to wonder if I had somehow "provoked" these guys.

I would encourage other posters to ignore seandr, that wolf guy, and Hunter78.

Seandr is a seriously misogynist dude. When my letter ran on SLOTD on May 9, he seized on one detail- my hobby, rowing- and did a forensic breakdown of the letter line by line, concluding I have no friends and never get laid. I don't know why he thinks that. I don't have any personal experiences with these other two trolls, but let's not give them any attention, either.

This is just so sad. Allen, hunter, even the seandr guy, you all just make me so sad for you. Because you are putting so much energy into conversations which you will never get anything out of. Some incredibly smart, articulate and patient women (and men) have been generously trying to reach you and you just...can't. Can't open your eyes even a crack to truly see the other. I can't imagine how lonely and shitty it is to exist that way.

Can't see @366 is " man" bashing. Think her words are pretty specific to a couple of men.. Geez, think you might be one of them.. Can't see any bashing.
And yes, the women here didn't stick to letter of Dans instructions, " say what nice things men have done".. Yep, it veered off/ but it just would have been a very different thread, you know- if you and Allen ( mainly you two), had just let it be women's thread to have..

Neither. Sadly, my life hasn't included any stories about men stepping in to intervene in other men's sexist behavior. I was looking forward to reading some, but instead I found this.

Thanks, @368. This thread has been super depressing, but it has been worth reading just to see the valiant efforts of you, lolorone, eva, sisoucat, albeit-- you all are like ninjas. I hope you know that even though your interlocutors on this thread can't be reached, there are probably hundreds of non-commenting readers who are learning from you.

@369 - We've had some. It's just that stories are limited, but arguments go on forever.

However, I have plenty more stories:

- When I was in middle school, a few boys decided it would be funny to grab me and dry-hump me in the lunch line, then spend the next few days taunting me about it. However, my dad also worked as a teacher at this school, and he made every one of them feel VERY bad about it, just by talking to them, making them explain and admit what they were doing and why. It wasn't easy for me at the time, honestly, because I just felt mortified, but in retrospect, I'm very grateful knowing that he made them understand they couldn't get away with that.

- At a recent party thrown by a male friend of mine, a male party guest was being an obvious dick to everything female. After he left, the friend who threw the party informed us that he planned to take the guy out for a beer and tell him he's not welcome at parties anymore because (to quote my friend), "He has a real problem being respectful to anyone with breasts."

- My uncle, who is actually pretty rough around the edges, always told me that if my boyfriend ever hit me, I just had to give him a call and he'd show up with a half dozen guys. Wasn't ever an issue, but still.

@345 - Oh, FFS. It's an internet conversation started off with a request made about who would be doing the talking. Calling that "Orwellian" is a ridiculous amount of hyperbole.

232 - "Why don't women take the route of line mechanic-- they don't like to get dirty, the responsibility of keeping the machines running, mandatory emergency overtime, heavy lifting, damaging their nails, twisting a tight nut, etc."

Seriously? I worked as a tig welder at a sheet metal shop while I was in college. We did structural mods and repairs on airplanes. And I'm one of the girliest girls you're ever likely to meet. But I'm sure I just did that girly welding stuff so I wouldn't break a nail, right?

Let me share a secret with you: women who work in fields like that form little pockets because we're safer that way. While I was still working as a welder, an asshole who I'd repeatedly asked to stop touching me followed me into the break room. He showed me the hammer he was carrying with him and then told me that if he bashed my head in with it, I'd stop pulling away. I was 19.

253 / 258 / 300 - "Kes, if you don't care what men are thinking, why do you care what they say?" / "calling it a hostile work environment is Orwellian bullshit." / "And a dirty joke certainly isn't a threat."

So you don't think it creates a hostile work environment when a 50 year old, 175 lb man corners a 19 year old, 103 lb girl and threatens to bash her skull in with the HAMMER he is holding so he can rape her? He laughed after he said it so I guess that means you think it's okay...?

@ 349 - She was sitting between two men. The guy was asking her to grab onto both of their penises like they were skiing poles.

@ 217 - "Our educational system is, I'd say, vaguely matriarchal."

I'm inclined to disagree. While most teachers might be women (at least until you get into college) their supervisors are mostly men. The majority of principals are men. The majority of superintendents are men. At least, that's the case south of the Mason-Dixon line. YMMV

@ 270 - "Who sees women as something to be controlled? Where is that ideology written?"

The Bible.

This thread reads just like an MRA bingo card.

-- Evopsych says primate behaviour predicts human behaviour, tick.

-- Getting cat-called is a compliment. Tick.

-- Government is neutering males! Tick.

-- Women enslave men with their beauty. Tick.

-- Why should a woman be scared of strange men talking about how they'd like to fuck her? Tick.

-- Oh noes not the patriarchy word! Tick.

-- Misandry just as bad! Tick.

-- Women have won the gender war already. BINGO!

My thanks to all the folks on this thread for their patience and forbearance, and willingness to explain over and over. Sadly, it really does illustrate quite effectively the sort of crap women have to put up with, both in terms of the actual harassment and assaults, and also how some men are quite happy to dismiss this experience.

And for the women who have shared stories of being harassed, abused and raped, including by trusted men, I'm so sorry this has happened to you (and me). And I include those who have said they were silly/careless/young and blamed themselves. And those who said that they hadn't had THAT bad of an experience, just groping, just men terrifying them, just being date-raped ... just, just, just. We're taught to say "just," aren't we? But it's never just.

We'll all keep on working for change, and change will come.

And with any luck a growing number of men will be working right alongside us.

@363: albeit, what you should have done to that coward was to say, loudly in front of the rest of the group: "Excuse me, I didn't hear you. What did you say you want to do to my pussy?"

emmaz@370, thank you for your kind words.
rowing@dawn, @364... Yeah, Hunter78 offered to suck a posters tits little while back.. We got the cream here on this thread...

@372: Orwellian? Not in the governmental totalitarian control sense, no. Of course that's not what I meant. But in the double-think sense, yes.

The issue of men being vilified for daring to suggest that someone's tar brush is being applied carelessly goes far beyond this particular comment thread and who happens to have been given the talking stick. I just found it kind of ironic that women are now lining up here in order to say -- about men, on behalf of the men and presumably to cheer each other up about men -- what the men have been expressly and loudly forbidden to say about themselves.

It's as if when men say the same thing it isn't true. When the truth of a concept depends on who is allowed to utter it and who is forbidden, I don't know what it is any more, but truth no longer describes it very well.

But since the women are requesting a turn to stand up and say #notallmen, hey, it's your gig. Maybe there's something to the concept after all.

@382, what are you on about?
Women here, as I read it -have talked about how men in their lives or total strangers have defended them. Women have also described instances of violation to their bodies and their minds. A few men have jumped in to play devils advocate or whatever , and women got diverted- trying, on the whole as I read it, to explain pretty Clearly their experiences and understanding of how the patriarchal culture oppresses them.. Not at all clear where your criticism comes into this/ and big of you- at comment 382, to hand the thread over to the women.
Thanks.

@ Hunter - Or when we are interested in that kind of work, we get redirected or chased off pretty quickly. It's probably similar to a teenage boy saying he wants to be a nurse.

And if we stick it out and do it anyway, we are often mistreated by our coworkers and bosses. Sometimes severely. And of course it's not an "all guys are assholes" thing. Some of the guys I worked with were awesome. But I think that in that kind of environment, the guys who ARE assholes feel more comfortable acting the way they want, so they do it more often and often in a more extreme way. They seem to expect other men to be complicit.

Re: the Bible - In the red states it sure is. And it's certainly not rare even up north on the coasts. A lot of the kids I went to high school with were Young Earth Creationists and there was a big group of them at my small, private, liberal arts college in one of the five most liberal states in the country. If you're not familiar with what that really means and you're up for a trip down the rabbit hole, Google it. And while you're reading, keep in mind that a lot of these folks tell their kids that our modern understanding of biology, chemistry, geology, and even physics is just "earthly lies." If you want to go even deeper, maybe Google "Quiverfull" too.

Forbidden to say about yourselves? Really- who's doing this forbidding and since when do intelligent adult men listen to being forbidden anything?
All each man can do really is just look into their own self- what are you attitudes about women? How do you treat women?
I don't live in the US, so I don't have the experience of fear you all must have, on some level, about this crazy crazy behaviour going down.. Fight the fucking gun lobby- but big big power base there, I get it..
And if some hysteria has gone down, outcome of which is you feel
" forbidden", and you know you work darn hard to be a man who treats women as your peers, your equal, all the time/ then I'm guessing " forbidden" is not directed at you...

Sorry my comment @385 was for @382. avast....

@383/385: See 345. If that doesn't explain sufficiently, see Dan's title for the post, and the post itself. Still not enough? Try Twitter, and Facebook, and, and, and. If in doubt, Google it.

This is already more thread derail than I had intended, which is itself ironic because the reason it continues is that I made note of a #notallmen-related phenomenon that the women in the thread are themselves doing, and yet got jumped on for it.

@Lady Laurel

It's nice to know you're so far removed from women unlike yourself that you consider our experiences 'weird strawmen'. Off the top of my head, feminism has a rough time with:

women of colour
trans women
sex workers
women from different cultures

And that's the end of my humouring you. We both know it's a waste of my time and yours since you have no interest in improving the problem, only mocking it.

"he shares my disgust when they have long conversations about the time they all went to the strip club"

Go on...

@387 avast2006
' which is itself ironic because the reason it continues is that I made note of a #notallmen-related phenomenon that the women in the thread are themselves doing'

This sentence don't make sense. What's ironic? And what are the women doing?

Yes, @392.. He got me beat. Avast...., no one forbid you to do anything.. Men were asked to not comment here on that issue, in this thread. Not " forbidden"..

Sorry, forbade you/

Avast...., suggest you read Slate article that Dan referenced in his post.

@388 - Oh, for Pete's sake. Parse what people are actually saying to you before you go flying off into your rage of choice.

The straw man is not that feminism has problems with representing anything other than the privileged majority opinion - that's a well-known problem. The straw man is that the basic idea behind the #yesallwomen tag is somehow evidence of that. Unless you can explain to me HOW, but you've decided it's easier to decide that you already know EVERYTHING that I'm thinking and put me into the thought box of your enemies. Yay you.

Also, dumbshit, I'M *ON* YOUR DAMN LIST OF THE FEMINIST DISENFRANCHISED I APPARENTLY DON'T CARE ABOUT. But SOMEHOW, I manage to not turn up my nose up at feminism as a whole. That is a choice, and it is a choice that I make because I don't EXPECT a movement that big to be perfect and because I choose to try to improve the movement while still being a part of it.

But OBVIOUSLY, anyone who makes a different choice in that regard MUST be the enemy of everything you hold dear!

Idiot.

@289 sissoucat: Right spot ON!!
So beautifully said and summed up!

Mydriasis, good to see you back, missed you for awhile. While I was in college, I had to deal with an ongoing domestic violence situation with my stepdad that culminated in battery charges when he decided to stand over me masturbating while I was sleeping. One of my professors told me he "didn't care why you missed class, if you choose not to come to class that's your business". I think I would have dropped out if not for another professor who was incredibly supportive during that time. The other example is my husband. I told him that my BIL told my sister that she might be happy if she got off her fat lazy ass and did some housework. He said,"That's completely wrong and disrespectful. If you wouldn't say it to your mother or grandmother, you shouldn't say it to your spouse. No wonder she left him."

"I choose to try to improve the movement while still being a part of it."

Interesting. By attacking anyone who's made a different choice than you?

You admit that they cater to a privileged majority, so you must have noticed that they tend to also erase people who aren't in that majority and speak as if Lena Dunham and Tina Fey obviously represent all of us. It gets old. It gets frustrating.

"Yesallwomen" is just another echo of that. It's frustrating when feminists are claiming to speak on my behalf and then work for things that will HURT ME, maybe don't shit on women just because we're sensitive to feminists speaking on behalf of over 3 billion people? Might not seem like a big deal to you, but it's a big deal to me.

I choose to not belong to a movement that's hostile towards me, I choose not to identify with a movement that alienates me with their statements of what 'all women' experience, you chose to swallow their bullshit because you think you can improve them? That's your choice, I respect that, why aren't you able to do the same?

I appreciate OSW's recommendation, because I think it veers more into the territory of constructive criticism. "YesAllWomen," frankly, didn't really strike me as helpful at all. Complaining about what you don't like, without any suggestion about what to do about it, isn't helpful. Coming up with what men can do is helpful. It's the old stereotype about women loving to complain but hating any sort of practical solution to the issue.

@410 -

"That's your choice, I respect that."

It is insanely obvious that you do not.

Also, my feminism isn't about Lena Dunham and Tina Fey, it's about Bell Hooks and Julia Serano and Tristan Taormino. They all call themselves feminists, so I'm not sure why the label isn't good enough for you.

Massive social movements have a tendency to be dominated by mainstream thinking after a while. That's just unavoidable, that's just reality. If you can't see that the movement runs deeper and has plenty of active subcultures that speak for a wider variety of individuals, you're the one who hasn't done your damn homework. That's not my problem. Enjoy being butthurt over your own laziness and misconceptions.

@412 - "It's the old stereotype about women loving to complain but hating any sort of practical solution to the issue."

How about the stereotype of men always wanting a practical solution in situations where empathy IS the solution that's needed?

How about women having faith that if men UNDERSTOOD, we wouldn't HAVE to tell them what to do in every goddamn situation (which is impossible anyway and also strips you of your agency)?

How about the fact that women are socialized to do a hell of a lot more thinking about what men are feeling than men are at all expected to do for women? How about the fact that men enjoy and often take this empathy for granted without realizing how foolish it is to discount and fail to acknowledge emotions? And different life situations?

How about the fact that WHAT WE ARE TELLING MEN TO DO *IS* LISTEN and many can't even do THAT much, so how the hell can we move forward with action from there?

In short, I do not accept this notion of, "stop telling me to empathize, just give me some ACTION. 'Cuz I'm a MAN." I'm fairly confident in this because I know plenty of men who have learned to see past this garbage and would eyeroll just as hard at your post as I did.

Just. Fucking. Listen.

@382: I just found it kind of ironic that women are now lining up here in order to say -- about men, on behalf of the men and presumably to cheer each other up about men -- what the men have been expressly and loudly forbidden to say about themselves.

It's as if when men say the same thing it isn't true. When the truth of a concept depends on who is allowed to utter it and who is forbidden, I don't know what it is any more, but truth no longer describes it very well.

Ironically, it was feminism that taught me to see this pattern is sexist bullshit--when men ignore what a woman says, only to take notice when a man says the same thing. Egalitarian doesn't mean I get to decide what I say, and I get to decide what you say.

For the benefit of the numerous people who seem to be confused about this issue, "I get to decide what I say, I get to decide what you say, and how dare you not be happy with this" is also not what equality would look like.

Allen Gilliam @253/259...

Are you seriously suggesting that men's "right" to speak in a sexually suggestive and threatening way to women, regardless of context, trumps women's right to feel safe? Really? I mean... what?

I cannot even.

You are at best a troll, at worst a sociopath.

@412

Women are hard workers. We have a smaller frame, less muscles, we bleed some of our blood each month and we still manage to have at least a job and raise children and do the housechores, which are pretyy physical. We work more hours than men, despite being less physically able to do so.

Not only that, but we mostly shut up about the abuse we're receiving from 'the bad males'. Because the self-described 'good males' won't let us speak.

So go stuff your stereotypes in your ass.

I've asked a black girl of my age what had most limited her so far, her color or her gender ? And she answered : my gender. No comparison.

Listen to John Lennon's "the female is the n** of the world" if you can't bear to listen to females, you fool.

@nocutename : I wish you were able to get that bastard to justice and he went to rot in jail for more than two full hours.

@241: Yes, each person has to behave ethically, by their own standards, in order to live with himself/herself/SOPATGS-self (Some other point along the gender spectrum).

Depressingly, there's apparently evidence that instead of adjusting their behavior to suit their own ethical standards, people adjust their ethical standards to suit their behavior.

But the issues don't get harder with polyamory, though perhaps the issues become more obvious. Fundamentally, the task is simple, even if it isn't easy.

LOL, yeah. That's a bit of an understatement!