Great Advice all around!

Thanks Dan, for recognizing the mis-step re guys and oral. Real men (hetero/bi, I'll excuse gay) lick pussy and like it. The best ones even get good at it.

Oh Joe, that's one very sad puppy.

Concur with @1, Dan. Got a ( female) expert and redressed your response re , well you know, from last week. Gotta love a man who adapts, rather than defends, quickly.

Cluesplaining:

"Flames... flames... on the side of my head..."

No mulligan.

"But open with an apology of your own: Tell him you should've checked with him before setting up the party"

Because yeah, you really, really should have.

One way that Boyfriend might feel "humiliated and exposed" is by being outed in real life to the wrong set of people about a fetish which is potentially embarrassing, possibly even harmful to his career or social life. You took something that was his secret, took it completely out of his control, and started handing it out to people. That's a completely different kind of humiliation and exposure from him running around your apartment naked in front of a few select, consenting, approving, adventurous women-friends of yours.

In other words, you opening with an apology of your own wasn't just a conversational gambit to get the discussion rolling and the apologies flowing. (LW seems just clueless enough to need that clarification.) Don't be so quick about wanting to slap -him-. YOU are the one who royally fucked up.

Just a query re estrogen; Dr Torres, or a knowledgeable person- if you could kindly answer. Having gone thru menopause 5 yrs ago, at the age of 58, what then is keeping my vagina lubricated? It's very confusing to be told a woman dries up post menopause.. Yet this hasn't occurred for me , yet.

To answer your question, at menopause the ovaries stop producing estrogen. But there are at least two other organs that produce estrogen, the fat tissue and the adrenals. So if you have healthy adrenals and/or a certain amount of fat tissue, enough estrogen will still be produced to keep your vagina elastic and lubricated. Women who experience a dry, inelastic vagina after menopause often are thinner or have adrenal fatigue. I am in this category myself, and had excruciating pain with PIV sex until I discovered a truly miraculous natural remedy. It's an herb called Pueraria Mirifica, available online and advertized to increase breast size. What they don't say is how incredible it is for upping estrogen levels and alleviating all those nasty menopause symptoms. It has saved my sex life and my marriage with no unwanted side effects at all. I take my little PM tablet every day with great gratitude.

Hey Sloggers I need your help/ insight. I think that I am in a similar situation as PUP (a dumped motherfucker who doesn't know that he's been dumped).

I've been long-distance dating a girl for about 6 months. Shortly, I will moving closer to be with her, but all of a sudden she has become distant, whereas before it was non-stop t(s)exting. She claims its because of the stress of starting a new job, and becoming a full-time single mom (her ex moved to another city and left her kid with her). But she isn't asking for any support or anything to deal with the changes in her life nor is she sharing real info claiming she "doesn't want to think about it". I would round this up to being dumped. What do you think?

Pete, I'm not sure you've been dumped as those are two legitimately stressful events in a person's life that could/should take up most of her attention right now . If the bulk of your communication was sexting and you've only been dating long distance it seems to me that moving to be closer to this woman is way premature. Was this something you mutually discussed or was it your idea? I'd hold off on the move unless it's for reasons completely independent of your relationship with this woman. It would be helpful to know how you met and how many times you've hung out together in real life but my guess is that you and she might have very different expectations of the future of this relationship.

Oops, Pate :). Need coffee.

Pate - If I were in her situation and a guy I'd been sexting with for a few months told me he was moving close and wanted to move the relationship to a new level, I would be very much like, 'Go away!' and 'Please no!', because I'd think that he'd want more of what he'd already been getting, and in person it's harder to turn off the computer when the baby cries, or establish firm boundaries on work hours and the like. You're threatening her with having to navigate a minefield of relationship issues in the middle of two other very stressful things. It might work if you made it very clear to her what you expect, and if you showed up (if she agrees you showing up is okay) and helped only. That means no expectation of fun, eating out, sex, partying, having a good time. Well, actually, you'd be saying that 'having a good time' for you would be the opportunity to help her during this time by being child care and covering for domestic duties while she settled into her new job. If you aren't interested in that, then yeah, you should probably consider yourself dumped, because her income and her child are both going to trump romantic interests, as well they should if she's smart. The only man she should be dating is one who will help her with those two things. It's up to you to decide if you're that man.

Pate @10, probably you've been dumped. Dan tends to simplify for his column so there's always a chance it's her life changes but slim.

Definitely she's saying don't move to be with me otherwise she'd be seeking emotional support at the very least if she's into you.

If you're a regular reader you'll know Sloggers & Dan would say terrible idea to move to be near someone you've only had a texting relationship with if you've never been together in real life yet even long distance (visits). If you have had an in-person relationship then she's dialing you out now.

@11 I would be moving to be closer to my family (parents, brother and his family) as well. I met her over the holidays when I was visiting my folks. I had been thinking about moving back before meeting her, so it's not just her. Previously she has expressed interest in me moving and encouraged my job-hunting.

We've been hanging out in person about once a month or so. On my last visit (met her for a few days and hung out with my brother's family for a few days) she introduced me to her daughter, but just as her "friend". Meeting her daughter was her idea.

I thought that we were on the same page based on our discussions, but it's really been since the last visit and the move becoming more concrete (I found a job!), that she's started to pull away and not wanting to talk about the future.

So not just a t(s)exting thing...

Libya@9, thank you.

And her kiddo was really nice, and I told her this. Eventually being a step-parent to her daughter is not an issue for me. She knows this.

Am in the waiting room at the vet and can't stop laughing. Other people and dogs (including mine) are looking at me funny.

@15, Pate. A woman whose just been abandoned with a child, may be in shock and not have the mental room yet. If you care about her, take the job and forget the future planning- just take it very slowly. Mothers often don't want to introduce new partners too soon, so the child doesn't get too attached . If relationship doesn't work out, the child can get hurt and if dad had some connection and then just quit( tosser), the child might be very vulnerable.
If you like this woman, be patient. But also maybe ask her clearly how she feels about you
- Now. Don't pressure her re future.
Pup, I don't know the rules of puppy play or what collared means, or why you're not supposed to have feelings for your fellow puppies. It feels way weird to be talking like this. However, taking clues from Dan, who I assume understands these scenarios, it does look like you're getting dumped.
WTF, typical eh, bloody men. Of course the thought of that party where he's gonna be naked with clothed women would finally win over his pissed offness with you for organizing same, without asking him first. Again , as with PUP, Dan much more up on the etiquette required for this scenario, than I will ever be...
VAG, focus on healing. Your man, hopefully, will support and love you as you relax from worrying bout sex till you are healed. He could cook you lovely meals, do the washing etc.etc.. Just rest... Repair. Later, it'll be fine.

@5. I know that, I was flippantly referring to the old "Real men don't eat quiche" silliness. It was late, I'd had a few and I really don't do flip very well. Though sadly, I am flip on occasion. But anyone who enjoys eating pussy, really should make an effort to be good at it.

Hunter. Saw on the news tonite, Lauren Bacall saying , she was 31 yrs old when Bogart died, and she felt like her life was over.
A lot of women get with older men because of issues with their fathers. Otherwise, why? A beautiful girl would want to be with a man old enough to be her dad.. You wanna be with a woman 25 yrs older than you? I'm guessing not.
She was a cool woman.

Pate @15, had you ever discussed exclusivity? If not, she may have been dating someone else, and now that relationship may be heating up, so she is putting the breaks on your relationship.

Bottom line is that when a partner is pulling away from you, clinging to them doesn't help. So make it clear you have your own life, and aren't moping around waiting for her to have time for you. Then be patient, and see what happens.

LavaGirl, there’s also an EvoPsych explanation to do with different mating strategies.

The dominant heterosexual female mating strategy is to bet on an unproven partner about one’s own age on the theory that he’s likely to be around to raise the kids through adulthood with you. Downside: he might turn out to be a dud. Upside: he’s still full of energy. Downside: he is probably going to be spending much of that energy away from home establishing status and securing material resources. (Also possibly sowing wild oats who will compete for those resources.)

An alternate mating strategy is to select a proven partner who has established his good genes by living well to a mature age. If this partner is able to secure you enough material support, you only really need him around for the first ten years or so and you don’t necessarily need him to invest that much personal time in childrearing. Downside: you might spend quite a while as a single parent. Upside: you already know he’s not a dud. Downside: he has less energy. Upside: he’s more likely to spend that energy near you and the kids.

To test this hypothesis you would need to look heterosexual May-December romances and see whether 1) the guy is less likely to be a dud than guys in same-age romances and 2) the woman is more likely to seem solid and determined enough to raise a teenager as a single parent than women in same-age romances.

Not saying this is necessarily correct, or correct for any given individual, just responding to your Otherwise, Why? question with an alternate hypothesis.

Also: yes, lots of men express interest in partners 25 or more years older than they are. Some of them say they have mommy/daddy issues, others just say that older folks are better sexual partners.

Generalizing from WTF's experience -- when hoping to fulfill someone else's fantasy, try to find the sweet spot where communication and excitement reinforce each other.

Pushing forward too fast (with any fantasy) may lead to going further than the fantasizer ever wanted; talking too much may make the whole project sound dull. There's also the danger that arousal makes people think they want their fantasy fulfilled, while their post-orgasm brain hates the idea. So at least some of the communication about fulfilling the fantasy should take place when arousal isn't clouding judgment.

Right with you @ 19. "puppy play", "pup bros", "puppy doms",.... LOL. This is why I read Savage Love. GREAT answer. It should be required reading of all people who ever entertain romantic ideas; would save so much heartache & needless suffering.

PUP's experience sounds like what happens at summer camp -- PUP and Fido were thrust together by circumstances (their mutual dom), and had sparks together. But when the "pack" broke up, there wasn't a real relationship between them.

@ Pate: If I were you, I would compile all the responses here and send them to her. She is certainly overwhelmed in her current circumstances and may not know what she feels about you right now- an extra load? source of help? who knows what? Reading the posts here might help her see her/your situation more clearly and be able to express that to you- whatever it is.

@23 We have a DADT agreement for the time being. The moping and worrying has been going on in my head. Towards her I've backed off as she clearly wants space, but haven't been whiny or demanding or anything like that. Leading my own life is the most important thing that I can do, regardless of what happens.

@29 Compiling the responses for myself has been a big help, and I'm feeling calmer. Thanks fellow Sloggers!

Excellent spot on advice again, Dan. Thanks!

@8 LavaGirl, and @9 Libya: THank you both for sharing helpful information for me in the future.

@18 Hunter78: My reason for dumping on DOMME's asshole husband had little to do with their age difference. The creep wouldn't go down on his own wife and mother of their children without her abiding to his shameful set of sexually repressive "rules" and abusive pigheadedness!
Why would I support such a cruelly chauvinistic double-standard such as the one DOMME expressed in her letter to Dan?

Lauren Bacall just passed away? She truly was cool ("To Have and Have Not" et al.). Rest in peace, Slim, and condolences to all who knew her.
RIP, too, Robin Williams, and thank you for the laughs, outstanding performances, and Oscar win for Good Will Hunting. Condolences to Robin's wife, daughter Zelda, and all others who knew Robin personally.

So I asked four of my (adventurous) female friends if they would come to a small party at my apartment where my boyfriend would be naked.

EPIC, MAJOR FUCKUP

You should have asked how he wanted it to go down. You also need to not involve your friends in your sex life without his consent. BOUNDARIES.

@27 EricaP: Oh, God--now I can't get "Meatballs" out of my head! LOL

All vaginas are "closed" dead ends - "an internal pouch". The cervix isn't at the end of the vagina, it's kind of at right angles to it, fairly near the end but not quite. The little bit that extends beyond the cervix is called the posterior fornix. Really Dan, I know this isn't your area of expertise, but you only have to look at a cross-section anatomy pic (the kind drawn as if from the side).

Some women like having a penis extend into the fornix and hit the very end, some don't. (Personally I don't find sex satisfying if he DOESN'T hit the very end, but as I only go about five inches deep that's always been achievable). Some women find that the cervix, during arousal, kind of pulls itself up out of the way to make penetration of the fornix comfortable; some don't. Many find that the cervix sits higher or lower according to the time of the month, and so are into fornix-sex at some times but not others.

If the questioner used to find her husband hit her cervix and now she has no cervix, I think probably sex with her well-endowed man will become easier.

Totally agree with WTF's boyfriend on this. Many of us, myself included, have fantasies that we'd like to play out with strangers but we wouldn't want our professional or social circles to know about. Had she approached him in advance, I suspect he might have requested that she set it up with only strangers, or vetoed certain people she proposed to invite.

Now, I was once in a CMNM scenario where I was fully dressed when his boyfriend came home, stripped naked in the garage as he always did, and then walked in totally surprised to see a stranger there. But this was a fantasy they had discussed extensively about him walking into a room naked only to find other dressed people there. They had discussed setting it up as a surprise. He didn't know when it would happen, but he knew and agreed and was into it happening someday unexpectedly.

In other words, like the vast majority of advice column responses, it comes down to CLEAR COMMUNICATION.

WTF, personally I find your "less talk, more rock" approach to realizing your boyfriend's fantasies to be endearing.

8-9 LavaGirl and Libya--

Pueraria Mirifica contains phytoestrogens, compounds in plants that are similar to estradiol and have a similar effect in the body. There's no reason to think that the phytoestrogens are any better than prescribed estrogen for preventing dryness. If a doctor has a reason to believe you shouldn't be on hormone replacement, finding a "natural" substitute will have the same dangers. If there is no reason not to be on hormone replacement, it makes sense to take a form of estrogen as close chemically to the one formerly made in the ovaries, not something that's close, almost the same. Not that there's something magic about a "natural" plant source, but if you are looking for something that's all natural, the stuff available with a prescription is closer to the real deal of what's natural for your body.

I disagree entirely that it is the hearer's job to tell when someone else is lying. PUP's Fido was a coward and lied about not being interested. No it is not the hearer's job to "tell" that "I love you but" means "I don't love you and." Some people are good liars. Some people are bad at detecting lies. And if you've been in a close romantic or semiromantic relationship with someone, you tend to think that this is someone you can trust. You tend to think that you know each other well enough to tell the truth.

DRF @40, I agree entirely that it’s not the hearer’s ‘job’ to hear something that was not explicitly said — but then, I’m Ask culture. I ask blunt questions and expect blunt answers. Vague answers where I’m supposed to guess what is really meant annoy the heck out of me.

However. Guess culture people also exist. Saying no to people or rejecting them is impossible. It’s just Not Done. In Guess culture, someone like me who asks a blunt question that forces a No is insufferably rude. A little like putting a flaming bag of dog poo in front of their door and ringing the bell and forcing a stomp in flaming dog poo.

Ask culture works well when everyone else is Ask and won’t be offended. Guess culture works well when everyone understands one another intimately and can respond indirectly to subtle cues.

It’s not my ‘job’ to become a skilled Guess if I’m not. However if I want to manage in life without alienating people I can recognize that some of the people I interact with are going to be Guess and develop a way of dealing with them. My tactic is to interpret a vague answer as a No, rephrase as a No and congratulate them on their bravery for saying No.

Me: Are you coming to my birthday party on Friday night?
Guess: I’ve had a long work week/ My sister’s going to be in town/ whatever
Me: Ok, so you won’t be coming. That’s a good answer because it helps me plan. Look after yourself!/ Say hi to your sister!

Similarly:

Pate: I’m moving to your city!
Guess: I’m really busy and stressed out.
Pate: Yeah, this isn’t a good time for you to take on a boyfriend. I’ll be looking after my mom so I know the feeling. I really enjoy spendng time with little Madison though so let me know any time you could use some free babysitting.

In both cases my Guess and Pate’s Guess are both free to say something like “No, I’m just going to leave early is all” or “Babysitting would be a lifesaver. And then you can spend the night after I get back as long as you’re back on the couch before Madison wakes up.” Or of course be grateful that you are so gracious and understanding about accepting their indirect No without forcing them to actually say it.

Ask vs Guess:
http://ask.metafilter.com/55153/Whats-th…

Alison, re age difference- fair enough. Up to Max 15 yrs difference for those reasons, but 25 yrs?
Hunter, as a 19 yr old boy ( as Lauren Bacall was about that age), would you have married a woman 25 yrs older than you? And if you did, don't you think social response from friends etc would have been, eh what you doing?
And there is a power dynamic at play here, surely. Life experience.
But then, it was Bogart. And by the sound of last weeks qu, which is how you brought this in this week Hunter, that man didn't sound like he had any redeeming features ( except money, which of course can be a pretty big one sometimes), as well as being much older than his wife.

Alison @42, I love you.

@42, No it's not anyone's job to become skilled at Guess or whatever, but it is a speaker's job to communicate honestly, especially when the stakes are high.

Your post seems to suggest a lot of assumptions, specifically that Pup or I or anyone would define the world in terms of Ask and Guess, and that is not the case.

You also seem to think that Pup's friend had two options, lying to him and bluntly telling him to get lost, but this is not the case. He could have said, as Mr. Savage suggests, "We had some good times but I don't want to pursue this further." Being honest and reasonably nice at the same time is entirely possible, and it doesn't even take that much effort.

The truth about ANY two people getting together (as I see it anyway), is that no one, including both people involved, know how it will go. They may have a short blissful union. They may have sixty years of hell and each wish the other dead. Either of them could die tonight. No one knows and they are the ones who get to live it and decide what it is. Other people saying this or that should or should not be have too much time on their hands.

Well, one of the most successful marriages I ever saw involved a 30 year age gap. She was a gorgeous vital woman of @28 and he was a thrice married man of near 60. They got it on until he passed away aged 95ish.

Evolutionarily speaking, it makes no sense for a young man to fall for an older woman who cant procreate. Not so the other way. Sucky but true; and I'm overlooking society's disregard for women over 50.

@Hunter78

http://idledillettante.wordpress.com/201…

I have a whole blog post about the crazy bullshit you wrote to DOMME last week about her awful husband. Most memorably, "shaved or not?"

Because seriously, WTF Hunter?

@Hunter78's whole advice to DOMME boiled down to "if only she'd shave" before devolving into his trademark insane, straw feminist fantasies & regressive notions about women's bodies. He's crazier than a crazy straw in the psych ward.

Oh no, 50 and 51; please let's not go there again. My head couldn't take it. Think of Hunter, dear sweet lovable Hunter, as the man to grind against, so to speak.
My point Hunter? Is that an older man marrying a younger woman is culturally accepted. You would have married a woman 25 yrs older than you, when you were 19. Yeah, right.

@39 Hunter78: Do you even bother to read the comments in Dan's Savage Love column before blindly trolling? I distinctly recall stating (@32) that my reason for dumping on DOMME's asshole husband had little to do with their age difference. Seriously, I think you're confused on what you're addressing.
Jee-ZEUS, if you need any further clarification, refer to rowing@dawn's and LavaGirl's recently made comments below:

@50 & @51 rowing@dawn: & @52 LavaGirl: Both of you NAILED it! I was asking Hunter the very same unanswered questions last week!

@39 again: Well?

Yes---anyone, however unlikely, interested in re-reading my comments regarding DOMME's much older, controlling asshole husband, would see that my dumping on Mr. DOMME was because of a) how he refused to go down on his own wife without her adhering to his unfairly rigid bedroom criteria (did I mention my ex from hell''s equally pigheaded lack of love, GGG, and respect?), and b) because I strongly disagree on the unfair insistence of pussy shaving (as my ex himself once belligerently enforced behind closed doors), as if a wife or girlfriend is supposed to view her own female genitalia as filthy, putrid, and gross.
How many men are made to feel that way about their penises?

@39: Okay, I'll momentarily play Judd Nelson's role of rebellious John Bender in "The Breakfast Club": Answer the question, Claire.

@44 @42: me too! We are almost always on the same page, and she has a wonderful clarity. Keep it up, lady!

Phuni44@48.. That's the conventional wisdom. I had my last child a month shy of turning 47. No problem pregnancy and natural labour. My nearly 17 yr old son, is a joy.
Of course, there are issues with women bearing children later , as there are with men. So I don't buy that argument.
Think your blog is a bit heavy handed, @50, 51;
Hunter, as I see it- does play at being a bad boy and stirring the girls up. I mean, the other men have the sense to get the fuck outta the way.. Though I noticed seandr was also mentioned.

@46, yes I think Dan has withheld an important item from us, so we can properly answer LW1s qu. Namely the photo of PUP in his garb. The face could be pixilated.
But really Dan, if you want help to address the LWs concerns, we must have all the relevant material.

@rowing@dawn: Oh oh. It seems you didn't take my advice and give up rowing in favor of having a social life. Now you've become an isolated angry person who blames others for her loneliness and unhappiness.

Honey, you have more in common with the MRA dudes you like to rant about than I do.

@ Pate--um, you said "Eventually becoming a step-parent to her daughter is not an issue for me." I hope you phrased this more enthusiastically to her, because in her shoes I would want to hear that you were absolutely ecstatic at the prospect of helping raise her daughter. It should be an issue. It should be a great issue. I neither have children nor plan to have children, but how respectfully someone behaves toward children is my primary yardstick of relationship fitness. I assume this is magnified by actually being a parent and seeking someone to help you parent.

DRF @45, Fido saying "I'm not ready for a commitment" and then cutting off the sex and the cuddles -- that's about as clear and honest a statement as anyone could ask for.

"Rather, sex for me is an improvisational dance, and mutual oral sex is a normal and lovely part of the choreography."

This is the most un-sexily pretentious way that I’ve heard sex described in recent memory. I’m assuming that he meant that sex for him is LIKE an improvisational dance, and not that it is literally an improvisational dance. Too bad, since the latter is fun to imagine (there would be crotchless zentai suits). Also, if it’s improvisational, then there is no choreography. I'm very disappointed that Dan did not correct him on this, and I demand another mea culpa!

Sorry, VAG, but I'm going to need to see some proof before I can take your claim of having a well-endowed husband seriously.

@58 Don't call me honey.

Brick Pudding @61, I’m not seeing what you are all worked up about.

Simile and metaphor are both common and accepted rhetorical figures. When he says sex is a dance, he’s using a metaphor. Getting all righteously superior because he’s not using simile is just ... weird.

RE choreography and improvisation, dance is not my field so I googled them. First hit: The Choreographer’s Handbook.

‘

http://www.jonathanburrows.info/#/text/?…

Brick Pudding @61, I’m not seeing what you are all worked up about.

Simile and metaphor are both common and accepted rhetorical figures. When he says sex is a dance, he’s using a metaphor. Getting all righteously superior because he’s not using simile is just ... weird.

RE choreography and improvisation, dance is not my field so I googled them. First hit: The Choreographer’s Handbook. http://www.jonathanburrows.info/#/text/?…

‘Improvisation can be a principle for performing. This is an approach to making performance that demands as much focus, clarity of intention, process, integrity and time as any other process. If choreography is about making decisions - or about objects placed in relation to each other so that the whole exceeds the sum of the parts - or about a continuity of connection between materials - then improvised performance is as much of a choreographic act as any other approach, the decisions are just made faster. For some people this is the right and only way for them to work. For some pieces this is the right and only way for them to work.’

If a choreographer calls improvisation a choreographic act I’m not sure who you are to ridicule someone who does the same.

@44, @55 — aw, shucks. I love you guys too!

@63: Don't call me honey.

OK, whatever you say, psycho internet stalker.

Better yet, how about neither of us refers to the other ever again? We'll just pretend the other doesn't exist. Deal?

@42 (Alison): Bravo! That is one of the best ways of talking about this I've heard, and I like your suggestions for how an asker reframes the guesser's answer in the expressed negative, but in a non-confrontational way which also allows for a clarification if necessary.

The only problem for me is that I am not either purely a member of ask culture or guess culture, but I appreciate honesty. I guess I tend toward ask culture, but I probably incorporate a bit of guess. Ironically, I use a more guess-culture-like approach when I care more about the person and don't want to hurt feelings--which is exactly when the directness of ask culture is probably the most needed.

I've been working on becoming more a member of (polite) ask culture (and polite, direct, truthful but tactful answer culture) more in the last decade or so and it gets easier.

It helps for me because the thing I detest the most is the mixed signal thing. It makes the hamster in my head start running on his little wheel. In taking steps to quiet the hamster, I've started asking more directly and learning to hear the "no" in the guess culture person's answers. I have also (politely) called a few people out on their behavior, pointing out that their unwillingness to be direct, either for fear of "hurting my feelings" or, more likely, because it has the tendency to burn one's bridges, isn't fair to me, as it resulted in my spinning my wheels unnecessarily. Then I remind myself how much I appreciate the direct answer, even if it isn't the one I wanted to hear.
Recently a guy was so good as the kind rejection that I thanked him for it, telling him that is was almost a compliment.

I really like the way you don't just hear the "no," but you tell the guess culture answerers that you hear their answer as a "no"--and then you let them know that you're not upset and you don't cause a scene. It paves the way for them to transition to becoming members of ask culture, because that unpleasant interaction they were afraid of, which is why (I think) they adopt the guess culture technique/tactics isn't an automatic consequence. They see that you can hear a straightforward "no" and you don't go ballistic; you don't end the friendship. Or whatever. That may make it more possible for them to start being more direct with people--or at least you--in the future.

@60 We can see from the post that no it wasn't clear and honest or else we wouldn't have PUP writing a letter about how his friend just needed time. The guy said, "I love you" and "not now." He should have said "not ever" or even just "no."

@70 (DRF): PUP's friend may not have been clear, but he was honest. "I love you but . . ." always means "I don't love you" or "I don't feel about you the way you want me to" or "I don't feel for you what you feel for me."

Always.

There's no other reason for that "but" to be there. If you hear " . . . but . . ." in any construction, the point of that coordinator is to say that what comes next is going to directly contradict what came before. Thus the second part of that construction is the part that counts.
Moreover, the phrase "I'm not ready for a commitment right now" or any variation of it should always be understood to be a synonym for "I am not romantically interested in you." It's unfortunate, I agree, that people who resort to saying it can't be more direct, but it's not as if they're uttering a strange, never-heard-before locution that needs interpretation by the Oracle at Delphi. If PUP or anyone else reaches the age of 20 and hasn't learned that s/he should be told that from someone. PUP should consider this a major helpful life lesson that will save him countless hours of head-scratching and heart-rending. It is never a welcome phrase to hear, but it should stop being an ambiguous one.

So the construction "I love you but I'm not ready for a commitment now" (or its close relative "I love you but I'm not ready for a relationship right now") translates as "I'm saying 'I love you' because I don't want an unpleasant confrontation, and I do like you enough to not want to be cruel or give the impression that I outright dislike you, BUT I will never be interested in you in the way that you want me to be."

It will never, ever mean anything else.

Furthermore, the cessation of cuddles and sex is non-verbal communication (remember the adage "actions speak louder than words?"), but when it is coupled with an explanation that sex and cuddling feels "too much like 'boyfriends,'" what's being said is "I want to reserve sex and cuddling for someone I want to be boyfriends with, and since you're not someone I want to be boyfriends with, I'm not going to continue having sex and cuddles with you."

That is actually pretty straightforward communication. It's just not the message that PUP wanted to hear.

I think that many times when someone complains that the signals are mixed or the communication is unclear it's really a case of the message being communicated being not welcomed by the receiver.

Hello Sloggers! So fun fact, I'm actually PUP from the letter. (Wish there was a way to prove it. Dan could as I used the same email to register. Anyway.)

First off, to clear up the confusion on pup play (cause ya, it's confusing) it's a type of kink D/s play that involves acting out in a dog-like manner, from the more abstract (playful, affectionate) to the more literal (barking, licking). Check out the 101 page on nepups.org (mostly SFW @46)

Second, one very important point that wasn't clear in my letter: Fido cut off sex and cuddles because, according to him, when he did them with me, it brought up a lot of emotions that he's not ready to deal with. He said it's easier to "downgrade" me to friend than to go through the emotions of "upgrading" me to boyfriend. (I'm paraphrasing.)

@20 There's no where in the rules that feelings aren't okay. That's never been a problem. Like I said, we formed a bond that went above the pup play.

@27 I can understand what you mean, but we have a very established connection/friendship outside of our mutual Sir.

DRF and Alison, you've given me something to think about. I definitely fall into the Ask culture side myself. Fido tends to be less emotionally accessible but is open to talking if I initiate.

@57 I wish I had a way to share the pic. :P You can search for my mask at Mr S Leather. Just search for neoprene puppy muzzle.

Thanks for all the discussion people! I'm definitely gonna hang around here for a bit. :3

PS @36 That sounds amazingly hot, and I want to be any of the 3 of you.
@62 I heartily agree.

For those who are all impressed by Ask vs Guess, I got it from a metafilter comment by tangerine (Andrea Donderi) in 2007. When it was excerpted by The Guardian in 2010 they referred to her comment as having ‘minor cult status.’

The only part that is mine is the bit about how to deal with a Guess when you are an Ask — automatically interpreting all vague or non-answers or non sequiteurs as No and then affirming that No Is A Good Answer. That way you don’t have to figure out what the Guess is trying to get at exactly.

Oh, and comparing it to flaming dog poo in a bag. That’s mine too.

There’s a funny follow-up conversation on metafilter following the Guardian mention. http://metatalk.metafilter.com/19253/Did…

@72 (ImThePup):
I'm sorry; I know you really like this Fido guy. But he doesn't share the feelings for you. He's trying to tell you but:

1) He doesn't want to hurt your feelings (ha! as if what he's doing isn't doing that, perhaps even more);

2) He doesn't want to have an unpleasant conversation/confrontation in which he has to face your unhappiness and take some responsibility for his part in it;

3) He doesn't want to close off his options just in case he's really horny down the road.

It sucks, it really does, that some people can't or won't be more direct. And it's a perfect (shit)storm when one of those I-can't/won't-be-more-direct people is trying to communicate to a member of guess culture who wants a different outcome. It prolongs things and it drives you, the not-wanting-to-hear-the-unwanted-reality person, a bit crazy.

Move on, dear PUP, and find a guy, fellow puppy or Sir or otherwise, who likes you back as much as you like him.

@ImThePup: I wish I had a way to share the pic.

Is this you?

PUP @72, thanks for writing in! The other advantage to moving on with your life without Fido is that demonstrating that you're a fun person with an active social life is actually the best way to show your best qualities to someone who is pulling away. Let Fido miss you; let him hear that you're having fun out in the world.

That is simultaneously the best way to help yourself heal and also the best way to find out if you have a chance of a real relationship with Fido. Moping and asking Fido to reconsider is the least promising approach.

@Pate:
It is true that your (ex)girlfriend sounds as if she's dealing with a lot of life stressors right now. But those things, while they may be reasons to pull your time and energy away from someone, shouldn't result in her total 180 degree turn from you. In fact, if you were to her what you hoped to be, she would likely be calling/texting/skyping/whatevering with you maybe even more often--not about sex, per se, but using you as a support. That she's not says to me that she's not merely overwhelmed.

The possible interpretation of the situation I have is this:
She met you and she liked you. Perhaps a lot. But you have some traits that she doesn't want in a "real," geographically-accessible, full-time-in-the-flesh boyfriend. Or you don't have some qualities she wants in a RGAFTITF boyfriend. Or for whatever reason, she doesn't think you two would work in the real, full-time, close-proximity world. She could ignore those problems when you lived far enough away that she only saw you on the occasional sex-filled weekend and communicated electronically.

But suddenly there is the possibility of your becoming a "real" boyfriend and she's faced with the reality that she doesn't want that with you.

She's feeling trapped. She knows that you have expectations of being a real couple, and she knows that she encouraged them. And maybe in the moment, when it didn't seem like a real possibility, she really meant it all--give her that credit

So she's taking a bury-her-head-in-the-sand-and-hope-it-all-goes-away approach.

Not realistic and not fair. But that's what she's doing. It's a variation on what Fido is doing to PUP, but with more desperation.

On one level, she's trying to get you to force the issue, to say something asshole-y so she has "grounds" to break up with you, too.

Try this: Don't contact her at all. See how long it takes her to make contact and see what the content of that message is. Is it a "whew; storms have calmed down, and now I have time for you again" message? Is it a "I love you but . . ." message? Is it "Here's the thing: I need this from you--can you provide it?" message? Is it a return to sexting? Is there no message at all?

If it's a return to sexting, you might want to try and figure out if she's just trying to keep you interested because of all the reasons I gave PUP (don't want to burn bridges, don't want to close doors being chief among them).

If you are really moving for other people and other reasons, then go ahead, but be prepared for some awkward encounters. If you were really going for her, put those plans on the shelf, at the very least.

@75 Ha! I wish. Sadly, I have never done kink wear model work. But that is the right mask. Also *MAJOR DROOLS* That is one pup I would love to play with.

@74 and 76 I appreciate it. This whole letter has been part of my recent effort to give myself some space and clarity. And I'm hearing and absorbing everything, even if give a little push back. Letting go is hard. :P

"Rather, sex for me is an improvisational dance"

I love this analogy. I distrust anyone who doesn't like cooperative sex. Being completely on the same team with sex requires emotional availability, so I can understand sex as a competition sport too. A good fight is a beautiful thing, like in Jackie Chan, MMA etc. And for those who know their body or sexual response, it can be fun to jump into a "to each his/her own" situation and come out satisfied or winning. I know many don't want to pay the emotional vulnerability cost when the only goal is mutual satisfaction. And more I think it's healthy; a mutually satisfying sex life and monogamy and romantic love are very intertwined. That kind of love can suck with the wrong person, and it's hard to leave and admit each other cannot satisfy, so it's important to be selective. But as to my ideal.

"Good" sex is the embodiment of our primary evolutionary advantage. Intelligent cooperation (toward mutual satisfaction) made physically manifest. Like dance only more risky and rewarding, an incredible experience with the right partner, a work in motion. But sex is like pizza, even bad pizza is pretty good and certainly better than no pizza. As long as you're not dealing with a complete dick who took a dump on your pizza for shits and giggles, so get to know your pizza guy a little I guess.

1. Intelligent cooperation
2. ???
3. Profit

I know this is corny but I've been listening to Minchin and he touches me. Well, I pretend he does...

Philophile: "Rather, sex for me is an improvisational dance"

Although I'm not a fan of improvisational dance, this line stood out for me as well, mostly as a reminder that good sex doesn't always have to involve power dynamics. For some of us, sex can be enjoyed as two people playing with each other on more or less equal terms.

Of course, if your sexuality is fundamentally tied to power exchange, I imagine you're reading this and thinking "yeah, whatever, that guy is just a sub."

Seandr - I talked about dance as an example of cooperative feedback. I don't think that competitive sex is very kinky, or really about power exchange, more the lack of power exchange. Competitive sex is what I call hookup sex or stripping it down to getting off or whatever you need with someone else, taking full responsibility for your own satisfaction but in someone else's proximity. I do love dancing by myself, just getting lost in the music and dance floor vibe. The cooperative stuff is when you rise to the challenge to learn to satisfy a specific body and set of preferences in ever more creative ways and vice versa. If power exchange isn't cooperative, it's abusive (nonconsensual). The dance is learning with each move of your partner, meshing styles into a seamless aesthetic motion. Have you ever seen an old couple dance?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHska1Fk…
They have an awesome sex life. They just do.

And I think you and Rowing@Dawn should just fuck already. Or pretend with your respective partners and get it out of your system.

Philophile: >> "Good" sex is the embodiment of our primary evolutionary advantage. >>

I have no idea what that means. Women enjoying intercourse is completely peripheral to passing on our genes, no more relevant than enjoying backrubs or spankings, or intelligent conversation.

>> sex is like pizza, even bad pizza is pretty good and certainly better than no pizza. >>

That's apparently true for many men. It's not true for many women. Bad sex is much worse than no sex. Bad sex is like someone thrusting their finger up your nose while you try to endure it or convey your lack of enthusiasm politely. The guy doesn't have to be a dick; it's just that sometimes I misjudge our chemistry or communication skills or how our bodies fit together until late in the process.

That said, I do like the dance metaphor. Dancing with a new partner can be awkward, or fun, or sensuous, or silly, or irritating, and it can also be all of the above at different stages of the evening. And with a compatible partner it can be satisfying with or without a climax. I suspect that for most people, bad dancing is worse than no dancing.

The main problem with the pizza analogy is that if you end up with terrible pizza, you have the option of leaving it in the box and not experiencing its taste. By definition, bad sex and bad dancing are things you experience as they're happening.

EricaP @83: “Women enjoying intercourse is completely peripheral to passing on our genes, no more relevant than enjoying backrubs or spankings, or intelligent conversation.”

Can you expand? I can think of a few ways it doesn’t seem completely peripheral so we probably aren’t looking at it the same way.

@84, Women finding intercourse tolerable is certainly important to passing on our genes.

But during intercourse most women historically were not orgasming (agreed?) and their vocalizations and motions were more about getting the guy to orgasm than about expressing their own pleasure. Do you think it's fair to say that intercourse-centered-on-male-pleasure has led to most of the children ever born?

At any rate, the current science seems to find no correlation between female orgasm and fertility:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/art…

@85 well, reading more carefully, the article says that women who orgasm have more sex, and thus tend to have more children. But the orgasms are an indirect cause of the fertility, not directly responsible for conception.

Still, I grant that I over-reached.

Alison, maybe you can translate Philophile's original statement so I understand better?

What does this mean to you?
>> "Good" sex is the embodiment of our primary evolutionary advantage. >>

[non-HA]

The dance metaphor works best if you've cut your hair short and it really shows your ears more. Ms Driasis (I think) will get the reference.

EricaP @87

“This is what we were born to do”?

(my best guess)

EricaP - Re "Good" sex is the embodiment of our primary evolutionary advantage.

I believe our primary evolutionary advantage is intelligent cooperation. Other species may be similar in brain/body size or neural density but they don't cooperate like we do. And I'd argue your point that enjoyment of sex is uncorrelated to reproductive fitness, but do I really need to?

I really don't get you at all when you say that bad sex is worse than no sex for women. If it's not fun then stop. If something bad happens, it's either a mistake, and you can have fun despite mistakes with a cool person, figure out the miscommunication and apologize... or an asshole managed to charm his way to bed and you kick em out. There are some psychos rather preoccupied by their own shit but they often can't seem to hide that for long. Like I said, get to know your pizza guy, if he forces shit pizza down your throat after you caught a whiff and tried to back off... In bed that's sex assault or maybe rape and I hope the cops are called. Just as you would with a violent demented pizza guy who forced you to eat shit pizza.

To take this back to dance, a socially awkward, rhythmically impaired, unpracticed partner can still be charming if he has an open attitude and you can have fun with it. What I called bad sex is the lack of feedback, or masturbating together kind of aspect of hookup sex. Like a couple sharing the same space on the dance floor without touching, it's better than dancing alone at home. It's pretty meaningless but can satisfy basic needs. The dick at the dance is the one more into showing off for the crowd, with no regard for your feet, only insistent that you keep dancing with him because your clothes match or something. If you try to leave and he keeps yanking you around as his prop you should scream and run to your friends. It shouldn't happen, but it does.

@EricaP: Given the advent of birth control, it's not surprising that a study on modern humans would find no link between orgasms and number of offspring. However, the fact that female orgasms don't affect evolutionary fitness today doesn't mean they had no impact over the hundreds of thousands of years in which most of human evolution took place.

The study should have measured the link between orgasm rate and frequency of sex. If it turns out that orgasmic women tend to have more sex, one might infer these women would have had more offspring had they lived before birth control became available.

seandr@91, the study did measure that, and it did find what you said it should find (See my correction @86)

Philophile@90, what if the persistent bad dancer is in your social circle and you don't care to piss him off? Yes, it's possible to get out of the situation but it can be worse than having stayed home that night.

"If it's not fun then stop." LOL.

Once you've agreed to have sex, it can be emotionally difficult to call it off when it turns out to be bad. In my life I've spent quite a bit of time during intercourse thinking: "maybe he'll come if I do this; maybe he'll come if I do that; I think he's in a rhythm, I think he's going to come soon, I can hold out, it's not that bad; god, if he doesn't stop soon I'm definitely going to say I need a break...Okay, just another minute to see if he comes and then I'm definitely going to say I need a break."

I've also spent time with someone going down on me thinking "I can't keep giving direction, he's doing the best he can, I don't want to be ungrateful, but man, I'd rather be anywhere else."

I've heard that men also sometimes feel obliged to go through the motions of sex they have internally realized is not going to be any fun.

None of this is a terrible crisis, but it just irritates me when other people assume that all consensual sex is fun for both people.

EricaP @85

I would hazard a guess that the more strictly patriarchal society a woman lives in, the less the number of her grandchildren reflects her pleasure in intercourse.

But evolution has given us multiple ways to find sex pleasurable, and while some of them are possibly simply hitchiking on some other trait, some of them at least are presumably there because of a fitness advantage.

> A woman who enjoys sex will initiate more and be a more enjoyable sexual partner. More intercourse > more pregnancies.

> A woman who is an enjoyable partner may have a partner who prefers to get his nookie with his babymama. Fewer stepchildren, less splitting of resources with other families > more own children who grow up healthy.

> A woman who is an enjoyable partner may have a partner who sticks around more. More paternal investment in children, more investment from the paternal grandmother > more children who grow up healthy.

> A woman who enjoys sex for its own sake may take the initiative to mix and match. Perhaps she has a primary partner who invests reliably in the family > more children who grow up healthy. On the side she may seek out romances with exciting, promiscuous men > more exciting, promiscuous sons who grow up healthy and have more children.

> Or hey, a woman who enjoys sex for its own sake may simply seek out exciting, sexually-driven men, period > more exciting, promiscuous sons who have more children.

> A woman who enjoys sex for its own sake and seeks out multiple partners will have many men who think they could be her babydaddy and who she can go to for support (especially important in violent societies where men die a lot) > more children who grow up healthy.

> If it’s true that women commonly lose interest in their steady sexual partners after four years but remain interested in novel sexual partners, that’s around the time a toddler is weaned and old enough to be left with its grandmother if the woman decides to pursue a better match. If she didn’t miss sex she might just live with her mother instead of pursuing a new partner. (Presumably another important reproductive strategy when the life you’re living involves men dying a lot.)

Look, this is mostly (not completely) just pulled out of my own ass like most evo psych. I’m not claiming This Is What Governs Sexual Relations Today. But many of us do like sex and there are societies where this fact is very upsetting to men. Presumably there are reasons so many of us like it and actively seek it out.

(You’ll note that some of these hypotheses contradict one another. That’s ok. Look around and you’ll see a lot of sexual variety.)

@67

She asked Dan Savage for advice, not you. Do you really think after two decades of marriage the idea of shaving her pubes hadn't honestly occurred to her? She never even says whether she shaves or not. For all you know, she's got the whole thing lasered clean. Besides, the husband's problems seem to extend beyond hair.

@seandr - who was it that said

"One of the nice things about living a liberal society is that everyone has the right to criticize everything... If someone is saying something especially stupid, you might even say that right becomes an obligation."

It was you, right? Did you not say that last week? I have a screencap.

STFU if you can't handle my criticism. And I'm not stalking you-- it was weird enough when you said I had no social life because I row.

Philophile @79:
“But sex is like pizza, even bad pizza is pretty good and certainly better than no pizza.”

Philophile @90:
“If it's not fun then stop.”

You said in @79 that stopping is never going to be your best option. Why are you saying it might be in @90?

Yeah, many guys find the pizza analogy works for them. Even if the other person is not their type, at least they’re going to come somewhere warm and wet so they might as well.

Me? If I’m not having fun, I stop. Yes, not having fun is a thing.

(I don’t necessarily get up and tell them to leave in the middle of the action. I just refuse to ever have sex with them again. I would rather go through a dry spell, or the effort of finding a different sexual partner, than have sex that isn’t fun.)

And I could offer you evidence of a lush social life, only I don't. Because I have some reasonable concern for my safety. The Blog gives away enough personal details--- it wasn't set up solely to pillory Hunter78; this is a blog I happen to have.

Though I have a feeling he might write something stupid enough to merit a second entry.

P.S. to answer your question Hunter; I have no idea. I didn't do a longitudinal study about which women shaved in which eras. And I'm unwilling to pull some notion of who shaved when out of my ass, as you often do.

P.P.S. "Of course, the Patriarchs are behind the trend towards shaven pussies. Only vigilant feminism can prevent this."

These are your words, right Hunter78? (A: They are, again I have screenshots.) I think anyone with two neurons to synapse could interpret that to mean "Feminists are against shaving." My apologies if I understood this at the most obvious level and didn't appreciate any fictive satires you were engaging in.

@96 "I don't necessarily get up and tell them to leave in the middle of the action."

This. People having sex are socialized to put up with some unpleasantness rather than end things before their sex partner has had a fair chance to orgasm.

Alison @94 women who enjoy sexual relations will tend to have more children. But it doesn't seem to convey much evolutionary benefit. I believe high child mortality and high mortality during childbirth had more of an impact on how many children lived to pass on a woman's genes, rather than the woman's high or low interest in sexual relations.

I don't object to Philophile's statement @90 that "our primary evolutionary advantage is intelligent cooperation." But good sex is just one of many ways of putting intelligent cooperation to use (like agriculture and language); I took Philophile to mean it was the main way humans put intelligent cooperation to use. If that's not what you meant, Philophile, I apologize.

EricaP,

If enjoying sex didn’t convey much evolutionary benefit then we wouldn’t enjoy it much. But many of us do, very much, and in many different ways.

There are animals who clearly don’t enjoy it much at all — look up hyenas, octopuses, even cats — so obviously pleasure is not inherently necessary to reproduction. However, among human animals sexual pleasure is a very big deal. If it didn’t serve a function — probably several functions — it could have been dispensed with.

@rowing@dawn: I have a screencap.

Yes, I know you do. You have a bunch of screencaps of comments from me embedded in your "blog" entry, the content of which is nothing more than a personal attack that attempts to paint me as an MRA who's lying about having wife. Or something.

And then there are your calls to have Hunter and I kicked off the island.

You're not criticizing ideas, you're pursuing personal vendettas. I suppose it's your right to write whatever nutty shit you want, even to the point of harassment, but damn, it's creepy.

Alison: If enjoying sex didn’t convey much evolutionary benefit then we wouldn’t enjoy it much.

You still might. Evolution will let non-beneficial traits ride along, as long as those traits don't impose a cost. Not every aspect of our body's design needs to have a purpose. I've got two useless nipples to prove it.

Seandr @101, yep, as I said @94:

“But evolution has given us multiple ways to find sex pleasurable, and while some of them are possibly simply hitchiking on some other trait, some of them at least are presumably there because of a fitness advantage.”

Seandr, @101.. Don't you find having your nipples caressed or touched sexual? Hard to believe male nipples have no use.

@LavaGirl: Don't you find having your nipples caressed or touched sexual?

I'm a little embarrassed to admit it, but, umm, yes.

@EricaP and Allison, I think maybe we should decondition ourselves to follow through with crappy sex. If it doesn't feel good and we are not actively trying to get pregnant, why follow through with it? I am incredibly blessed to have a husband who doesn't expect that sex is his right and does not give me a hard time if I call a halt to things. Yes, it was difficult the first time I had to stop in the middle because I have some health issues that made intercourse painful at that time, but I learned a valuable lesson about consent. It can be withdrawn, and yes now does not guarantee yes five minutes from now if something about the circumstances changes. That is part of good communication with a trusted partner, and if the person is not a trusted partner (one time hookup, etc.) then I don't care if they think I was a tease, get angry, whatever. Even if I wanted them to be more, I don't want a repeat encounter with a partner who doesn't have the self-control to stop or the respect for me to do so if asked. And if they were to keep going past the point that consent is withdrawn, I would consider it assault and take appropriate action to defend myself.

EricaP @92. Yes. That is a very difficult situation.. Being in sex and it just feels wrong. I agree no sex is so much better than bad sex. Or, sex where one is doing it because it's part of the marriage contract that one must have regular sex blah blah blah.. Hurry up and come so I can be away from this.
Then of course, there's sex that tingles from start to finish.