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To me, she seems more like a cat calmly and patiently toying with a mouse.
she also has those horrible square plastic nails which seem to be a requirement for women in porn movies.
LOL. I have to admit that's a cliche I was entirely unaware of.
Damn that's hot. Reminds me of something I've been meaning to ask someone...
And nocute, you really can't see the patronising and offensive tone. And outright attempt to close me down discussing porn,using my age, his " understanding" of my sexual life, in Allen's post? Or this just situation normal, where you seem to be , often, on my case. I'm in trouble for using the F word? On Dans site. Please.
VirginiaM; I'm sure many women suffer this situation, where the fantasy visual world trumps the real world. You sure having sex only once a month while he jerks off to porn several times a week isn't a deal breaker? Sounds like it's doing your head in. Maybe suggest, strongly, that it is a big issue for you and he and you need to go see someone about it.
But it does help to show how far we've come.
Virginia @204, you say you've tried everything, but it doesn't sound like you tried scheduling, because it's not exciting. If that's right, I hope you'll consider trying it. I find the anticipation to be fun, really. And many therapists note that having sex can lead to arousal, in many people.
If you haven't tried it, I hope you will, for a few months, rather than just accept that you only rarely have sex.
The poster asking for links to ethical porn, maybe check the feminist porn awards as referenced by Canadian nurse above. One could assume these awards go to some hot,
(and ethical )for women, porn.
@145: Kindly stop speaking for what "most women" want. It's unbelievably patronizing.
Also, this claim to be able to detect arousal from labia puffiness is ridiculous. Labia vary in size, shape, and color. Swollen/aroused labia on a woman with naturally small labia may still look considerably less puffy than unaroused/calm labia on a woman with naturally large labia. You have no reference point to which to compare if you're not familiar with a particular set of labia.
Also, instead of hating porn, have you tried watching it with him? Besides the age of the women, are there common elements to his porn that aren't in your bedroom (e.g., power play, bondage, other kinks)? Would you be willing to try any of those things? While yes, perhaps the issue is attraction to 20-year-olds, perhaps the attraction is instead about what's going on between the two participants.
Come as You Are). If you go there, and talk about your ethical concerns, as well as what makes you hot, their staff can usually point you in the right direction.
If you're in a rural area, I'd encourage you to check out both of those websites, but in my opinion, it's harder if you're reading descriptions and then buying films than if you talk to experts.
Seandr said bad in bed. I'd say sexually repressed and incapable of fully enjoying sex. But it amounts to the same thing. I'm not saying that you don't have the right to feel the way you do. I'm trying to get you to see that your feelings have an arbitrary origin and they have negative consequences. Your response is to defend and justify them.
I'm trying to make a legitimate point about how religion, feminism... culture in general mind-fuck so many people about sex. I'm not trying to silence anybody due to their age. My comment about not foisting your tastes onto the next generation refers to breaking the cycle of sex-negative brainwashing.
A woman responds to a mans suggestion about a certain sexual activity by saying " that's disgusting" and " shes sexually repressed and incapable of fully enjoying sex ".. So, by implication- she must do what the man suggested, cause then, by your definition she is fully enjoying sex.
How could you possible assume to know when and if a woman is " fully enjoying sex"?
I didn't respond defensively to your post. I have nothing to defend. I was really angry;
Did you read thru the posts? A whole range of female opinions about how they felt porn impacted their lives. Their experiences.
Doggy style fucking, having my hair pulled and my arse slapped- does not sound at all erotic to me. Other women above, said such sex is what they enjoy.
And , either response is fine and in no way constitutes sex- negative attitudes. It's called having a choice. Wanting to have the sort of sex each person is comfortable with.. Enjoys.
I feel a lot of pressure is placed on women, to perform in ways that others tell them is what they have to engage in- or, hey, they are sex- negative. Bully behaviour..
If a woman you are having sex with, doesn't go to places you want to go to or vice versa- then find someone who does. Shaming people for their choices, how they want to conduct their sexual life- is thuggish behaviour.
I see no apology from you for your thuggish words towards me.
Leave now.
My ex wife was always accusing me of looking at other women. Badgered me about whether I had ever looked at porn. It took me 23 years to snap and give her an estimate that I had looked at porn for about an hour and a half per year. She put that in a court affidavit this year.
When asked to contribute to the running of the house she would threaten to expose me as a child abuser to my employer (I work in healthcare including with children). Now she has filed a court affidavit containing implications that I abused my children and a detailed explicit false allegation that I raped her.
I think the earlier you get out the better. Don't give her any hint that you might leave or she will accidentally get pregnant with that child you will be accused of abusing.
I love all those accidental children I got. They live with me now even as she writes to the court with invented claims that I told her of my wish to put my daughters in pornographic movies.
It's been really hard on the kids. We are going to survive well, but it took a year or two to be able to be sure of that. We own nothing now of course but that's OK.
I knew she was difficult. I thought I stayed with her because I loved her. Placating someone at all costs is not loving them. It's also not safe for you.
When she next threatens to leave, say "OK I'll help you move out" and do not risk your gametes meeting hers ever again.
I've met a wonderful new partner. She loves me and to my constant amazement she loves my children in ways their mother is just not capable of.
The thing that is wrong with you SNAP is the same thing that is wrong with me. You are asking how to convince her that you are a normal nice guy who cares for her when you need to be asking yourself if she is a normal nice woman who cares for you.
An older straight couple only having sex monthly but the husband using porn and masturbating more frequently — both of you are certain this is a rare situation???
And there are still tribal hatreds over the issue how many thousands of years later? Though I agree with you that it's probably time to just let it go.
Yes, we all really should turn to the bible more often for moral guidance.
No, most of the people who have a problem with porn have a problem with how sex is depicted in porn.
@count Oh god, that sounds horrible.
@LavaGirl @222 - Personally I have a problem with the "That's disgusting!" response. If one's partner makes a suggestion, however outrageous, but a suggestion, not a demand, it's not okay to respond like that because it shames them. Shaming somebody because they have an outrageous fantasy is not okay, and there are way more appropriate ways to decline a suggestion, especially if we are talking about a long-standing relationship. Like, "I don't want to do that."
Of course, one should make an effort to communicate with care; it does not follow though, that this person is bad in bed. Which is where this line of discussion started, way way back!!
You say that it’s far more common for someone in a couple to have no sex drive at all (no masturbation, no coupled sex) than to
> a) either have a reduced sex drive (coupled sex too much work to bother with much any more but masturbation is easy so still happens) or
> b) have a just-fine sex drive but not find one’s partner attractive any more (libido sometimes overcomes lack of interest in partner; masturbation at least as interesting as ever).
Where are the data that support your certainty? My anecdotal impressions are very much at odds with what you are so certain of, so it would be interesting for me to look that up and learn something.
Seriously, I hope that SNAP is reading--or still reading--these comments or that Dan either sends him your comment directly in an email (you might want to write to Dan with it directly, because who knows if he reads the comment threads or whether he reads them this far down) or puts it in the column next week. He should, because SNAP needs to see your story. He really should read and take to heart your final words ("You are asking how to convince her that you are a normal nice guy who cares for her when you need to be asking yourself if she is a normal nice woman who cares for you.") Because your ex-wife isn't rational or normal and if SNAP's wife is yelling at him for looking at other women anywhere, anytime, and accusing him of being a pedophile because he watched porn (apparently only during the year they were separated by distance, years ago), then she isn't normal either.
As you can see from this comment thread, many women don't like porn. But what you've described and what SNAP appears to be living through goes far, far beyond not finding porn to be woman-friendly or the typical porn erotic for women. It even goes beyond the insecurity that I said is behind SNAP's wife's response, though that's there, for sure. It represents truly distorted thinking and the sign of a deeply disturbed person. I'm glad you got out finally, but I hope that SNAP sees your letter and realizes that he can never get her to see him for who he really is; what he needs to do is to see her for who she really is.
There are people--women, mostly--who view men's watching porn as tantamount to cheating, even if the man is also having regular sex with the woman in his life; there are women like virginia mason, who seems to be really neglected by her husband in favor of porn; there are women like Philophile and LavaGirl who appear to like the kind of sex they like just fine and don't like porn because they don't think most of it depicts such sex; there are women who think that women in porn are generally exploited and that the industry feeds off the exploitation of women; there are women that don't like porn because they fear that their husbands or boyfriends who watch it develop unrealistic expectations about how they should respond to various acts; there are women who don't like porn who feel judged against the appearance of the actresses and whose sense of insecurity is heightened thereby; there are women who don't like porn because they believe that porn is inherently degrading to women; there are women who don't like porn for some other reason, not succinctly articulated, but who like to do some of the very activities in real life that they don't enjoy watching in porn (I fall into that category). How can you paint all those women with the brush from the can of paint labeled "sex negative?"
How can you call them all repressed, or suggest that they were raised in a culture of shame, perhaps brought on by repressive religion? How can you decide, from your side of the computer, that all these women whom you've never been in bed with don't really enjoy sex, aren't capable of really enjoying sex?
LavaGirl has her reasons, her legitimate reasons for not liking porn. I don't like it when she or Philophile or any other woman pronounces what "women" do or don't like, but when she speaks for herself alone she has every right to her preferences without you pronouncing judgment on her and deciding that she's sex negative and sexually repressed.
People don't have to enjoy what you enjoy to be "normal" or well-adjusted. And feminism, by the way, can be critical of much surrounding the porn industry without telling its members to hate sex or even male sexuality. Much of that criticism is legitimate, and for you to ignore that and then to tell porn critics that they must have had upbringings that somehow warped them sexually is equally as defensive as anything LavaGirl wrote to you, minus the overwrought tone and cursing.
Come down off your high horse--or your snarling wolf.
So I liked that about it. And it didn't disgust me, which is an improvement over most porn. But it just left me cold, completely detached and uninvolved. I watched it with purely intellectual involvement.
I need context to be aroused, and that is the primary thing I find lacking in porn. And when there is an attempt to provide context--the pizza delivery guy shows up! The girl ordering pizza invites him in! She has no money! They fuck like bunnies in about 7 positions over the course of 13 minutes!--it is ridiculous: banal, poorly--no, horribly--written, poorly-lit, poorly-directed, and extremely poorly-acted, and it's painfully obvious that it's all about getting this stuff out of the way so the fucking can start. I suppose that given the choice, I can understand why someone would prefer to skip that dreadful crap and just cut right to the close up of a disembodied cock in a woman's mouth, but since that doesn't do it for me, I find 99.9% of porn leaves me no workable options.
I think that's why I prefer my visual in the form of softer core sex scenes in mainstream feature films (yeah, LavaGirl, In the Cut was hot, and a very good adaptation of the very sexy scenes described so well in the book). I like the smolder and the smoke. I literally feel no heat from porn, which seems kind of strange as I realize when I write this.
When I say I need "context," by the way, I don't mean I need romance, or the context of courtship of love. I just need a set up that is about desire and anticipation--even if that flares up in a matter of seconds. I need characters; they don't need to be fully developed--I'm not looking for Henry James novels--but they have to be more than "dick" and "mouth."
I used to have a boyfriend who would describe something he'd seen in porn that he wanted us to try. It would sound so hot. It was his voice telling me about what he wanted him and me to do. His description made me so excited. And then I asked him to send me the link to the site so I could see it, too and it could turn me on before we got together next and could try it out. When I watched the videos, I had the same reaction I had to the one you linked to--actually worse. They either did nothing for me or they actively disgusted me. Eventually, I learned not to try and watch them. Instead, I liked hearing him tell me about what he'd seen and what he wanted us to do. I always enjoyed the new things that he'd gotten inspired to do. I came to think of his porn watching as something akin to Viagra: something he did to rev himself up so that I could reap the benefit, but which was for him alone.
"What I think you're saying is that most women don't like to watch porn, which seems obviously true. "
I don't know if I'd agree with that. Most I've talked to about it have checked it out and at least like gay porn. It does seem easier for other women to give up on straight porn completely. Sensual porn changed things up a bit.
"That's entirely orthogonal to my point, however"
Oh god not again.
As I said before, there's good porn and bad porn for most tastes, I agree with your point. I like some a lot (if no one's picked up on that yet).
My point is again that in general porn shows how NOT to treat most women in bed. I also specified the exception of masochists. Puddles included submissives too, and sub porn uses vibes and hands a lot more than mainstream to get chicks off so I imagine sub porn is a good template to approach a submissive in bed, but I'd disagree a sub would like the typical unarousing or aggressive approach in mainstream. Could be wrong I don't really care, I know that I've heard many more complaints, even recently in these letters, about women utterly frustrated that they are attracted to guys who get different when piv sex starts, more porn like, and the women can't have sex with them and feel sad and confused. It's become a meme imo. So I feel pretty confident about the statement that most women don't want to be treated like the women in porn most of the time. Most want ggg sex and a more specific kind of stimulation that they'll usually demonstrate a bit while making out before sex ever starts.
"Before Viagra, most men would have difficulty maintaining wood in front of the camera. That's why exceptions like Ron Jeremy were able to get so much work, despite the fact that he's butt ugly. "
Coke problem? I can't remember much 70s/80s, I was never into it, but it seems male viewers put a stop to soft-dick sex quickly. I started watching vids in the 90s right before napster and I'm sure I've taken a different viewing path. Eg I loved amateur before it became a genre and it seemed to disappear for awhile.
@194 I think so too! And Lavagirl is so nice in so many situations where I'd find it difficult. And age shaming is surprising to see here!
@196 Hunter
"And women cannot be aroused by the thought they're about to be fucked?"
Genital stimulation generally works better.
"This "uncovered vulva" you keep bringing up-- that means a vulva not covered up by a sac of balls? Why is that important?"
No. It means the vulva is visible instead of being pounded during thrusting (yeah balls slapping it counts if they're good hard slaps, but typically with pubic bone, both are a rare part of the sex), or ground against, or pushed with a hand, or getting squeezed-thigh-action. The worst here is when the guy pushes the girl's hands away from touching herself for the camera. It's so sad that I'm not sure why it's sad. Anyway most filmed positions seem to be chosen for vulv visibility cause it's almost always uncovered. Different women can prefer internal or external but as far as I can tell (haven't seen this studied), if you can get off to internal+external, it's the favorite option. Certainly for myself. I'd love to hear others opinions about this.
"Quit your grandstanding."
Again, my masturbation habits and partner sex habits are off the table for discussion when I say they are. :( Why would you think I'd answer your questions after this rude demand for my porn viewing history?
@205 ethical porn is not well defined. One attempt is makelovenotporn.tv
@197 EricaP
Re cunnilingus vids, you might like:
http://www.pornhub.com/view_video.php?vi…
Although of course there's no female pov. That only happens when nice girls with hot skilled boyfriends upload. (Thanks!!) Or when others illustrate why I can find rear entry boring:
http://vimeo.com/54583382
Also I remember an old vid, Marie and Jack, a hardcore love story, seemed made for straight women and not bad for men. It's more documentary and the scenes are very short but hot.
@214 "Kindly stop speaking for what "most women" want. It's unbelievably patronizing."
Why would a man say this to me? I seem to remember you posting as a man, and your picture looks like a man. wtf? And the "babe" was ok because Lavagirl said it was cool, if someone asks you not to use endearments it's rude to disregard that; I don't think they're always ok.
I don't think I'm saying anything revolutionary here, it seems to be in alignment with most (all?) female posters, although I'm surprised sub or maso women don't like porn that much. But all these bad feelings and rude comments have soured the thread. Can we agree that porn is fine as fantasy, it's really not much different ethically than buying sweatshop clothes as masturbation material, and it's often useful, but not always benign, especially when porn affects a real sex life? Eg watching porn instead of satisfying your partner, or porn shaming "but other girls.. but in porn they.. " women into sex acts, or defaulting to aggressive sex esp. with inexperienced women (unless they welcome being rough and nasty before sex). I wouldn't even say that porn is the real problem, but the inability to separate porn fantasy/desire from reality, or not being able to negotiate mutually satisfying sex. So it's irrational to say porn is good, irrational to say it's bad, and irrational to say it's realistic.
I don't want to post anymore.
They were seandr's words that you repeated, so I assumed you were okay with such an enraged-sounding response. My point is that no suggestion of consensual activity should merit such a response from one's partner. And if somebody responded like that to me I would think they are bad in bed, not for refusing to go through with something, but by reacting so aggressively. Because it implies that the refusing partner's sexuality is somehow better because it's more conventional, whereas the suggesting partner has "disgusting" ideas and deserves such a reaction for that. To me it's just a question of my-thing/not-my-thing.
Some do. Or at least differently. For every complaint about 'bored women in porn' you can find one about fake(?) moaning, screaming and shivering orgasms*. Most complaints seem to originate from the 'He/she doesn't respond the way I do. So its gotta be acting.' Well, maybe. On the other hand, perhaps the bored women in porn are simply trying to recreate the staring at the ceiling, thinking about paint colors experience that many describe about real life. For authenticities sake, of course.
*There are a few porn outtakes on the 'net of some pretty intense female orgasms that required the shoot to be terminated. So much for 'its all fake'.
Philophile @236 Thanks for the video. Also, I think you're right to mention the inability to negotiate mutually satisfying sex as the problem for which porn is often blamed.
I could provide an example of discussing something MM and then slipping in a general comment about All or Most that could still refer specifically to MM, to Ms in MM or MF, or to either Ms or Fs.
***************
Four-fifths of a point to M(s) Saber for beginning 206 with:
[For me (and probably for a lot of other generally sex-positive feminists) anti-porn sentiments were formed from exposure to "bad" OS porn.]
With no qualifier, one would still likely presume that the post was not inclusive of MM, but would not know whether the poster erased MM in general or not. There could also have been a reference to how porn treats women performers that didn't specify between MF and FF.
This. One person's "shit visuals" is another person's "good visuals." There is no objective ideal; it's all subjective. There is no "all women's" perspective; all women have different perspectives. When you attempt to speak for all women, whether about women having their power source in their pubic hair and how removing that hair is an attempt to remove or diminish their power (which I believe was the thing I criticized you for saying on my behalf as a woman before, for which you think I typically and predictably get "on [your] case" in what you call "situation normal" @209) or whether it is how women don't find porn erotic, or whatever, that's when I get irritated.
You also have a pattern of making incendiary comments--last time, I believe it was mydriasis who got upset when you told someone to fuck off or that something was fucked or said "fuck that" regarding something someone said, and then demanding to know why someone takes offense. Well, that's why. I don't think you're a terribly careful reader, which is one thing, but then you get all reactive about something you've misread or misunderstood, and then, once you've pissed someone off with your reaction, you get defensive about it. The irony is that I'm actually in agreement with you more often than not.
For example, in your defense of yourself against my telling you that I didn't appreciate the turn that the discourse was taking when you told both Allen Gilliam and avast2006 to fuck themselves you suggested that I have a problem with the word "fuck," and that on this blog or in anything related to Dan Savage, that was absurd (" I'm in trouble for using the F word? On Dans site. Please.")
No, you're not "in trouble" for "using the F word;" you're not "in trouble" for anything at all--as I told you before when you accused me, I'm not your mother. I don't faint at the sound or sight of a "bad word." I'm not big on euphemism, and if I was, you're right, I'd be on the wrong blog. I use the F word with impunity, sometimes as a verb, and sometimes as an intensifier, and I like the power it packs. Telling someone to fuck off, however, is not just "using the F word." Again, your refusal to acknowledge exactly what I'm objecting to and your conflation of it with any use of an expletive is either disingenuous or speaks to an obtuseness born of poor reading.
But I like this column (and Slog) and I like the majority of the commenters who hang out here because as a general rule they are articulate, informed (and often informative), and interesting. There have been discussions that have veered off into side threads about linguistics or theology or politics that have been fascinating. Some of these people seem like people I would love to have a glass of wine with, even if I don't agree with everything they have to say. Unfortunately, I can't say the same thing about many other blog commenter populations.
I dislike the pettiness and back-biting that can flare up, and the grudges and cattiness that occasionally flourish here. (Kudos and thanks to mydriasis and Hunter for finally stopping giving fuel to their long-standing feud. It's been appreciated.) People can disagree and discuss without name-calling or insult-hurling, and I appreciate that level of discourse that doesn't stoop to it.
Go ahead and be pissed at seandr's attitude, at Hunter (whom you seem to like, which I find baffling), at avast2006, and at Allen Gilliam. I was just hoping you could express your difference of opinion more civilly. Once name-calling or invective starts, it's hard to have a discussion in which we learn to appreciate the other's point of view, which is quite a lot of what I come here to do.
Nope that was me.
"Mydriasis shut the fuck up already. Your issues are boring and you're extremely insulting to boot."
and she called me a moron. Whatever, she stopped going on about her awful definition of feminism and insulting people. I think her posts since then have been cool and we ignore each other nicely.
And I find your posts more condescending than Lavagirl's in general. Maybe we just think very differently. I don't like to read infighting posts. So I'm going to contribute to the infighting posts ... !!
It was in the column titled Married Ladies, and it started when LavaGirl called the lw "fucking stupid" when she (the original lw) joined the comment thread. LG also made a couple of incendiary comments about how men's genitals could accurately be called "junk," but women's could not.
Then the pubic hair tangent started, which got immediately mixed in with feminism. Much of this took place on August 7-10, if anyone's trying to find it. Here are some highlights:
LavaGirl@ 113: “So fuck you and all the other fuckers and us women who buy into this shit.”
Mydriasis @ 115 in response: “What exactly is your problem with us?”
@119, LavaGirl starts by feigning ignorance of mydriasis’ upset, even though she said “fuck you” only six posts back: “mydriasis, my " problem with us"? I have no problem with you. What a strange wording.. “
Then starts on her earth mother power in the pubes rant:
“I'm talking about how the perceptions that body hair on women is not a pretty big part of their sexual energy. It grows for a reason.
Over time, the male gaze has insisted on bits of it being shaved off- our potency as strong sexual animals- just that little bit shaved back. Then, a bit more. To today, where grown women eradicate all their body hair.
I do understand most women have these practices.”
LavaGirl @141, after mydriasis and then others have called her out: “Of course you guys would read it this way. And how are my perceptions insulting anyone; unless you recognize some truth in them.
Is it insulting to point out to Muslim women , who are covered top to toe in black cloth, that perhaps their men and their religion is a tad controlling of them?
My intention is not to insult. “
Avast2006 responds @142: “That's pretty funny. You honestly believe that you can call any sort of names you like, and as long as they aren't true, they are no more insulting than saying the person is green and striped?
In that case, have it your way: what you have been saying about women who choose to shave being infantilized prepubescents isn't insulting in the least, because it is the most fatuous, arrant nonsense imaginable. Also, you are a complete idiot. Don't be insulted by that, unless you know it's at least partly true.”
Me, @144, to LavaGirl:
“I don't feel insulted, but I would appreciate it if you stopped couching your attitude towards pubic hair in universals.
You like it; you want to keep it. You have strong feelings about people who remove it or prefer the look of hairlessness. Fine.
But there are myriad reasons that other people remove theirs, and you don't know why people who prefer the look of bare genitals feel the way they do. And when you presume to tell everyone why they're shaving or waxing or what's wrong with it, it's, if not insulting, at least irritating.”
Over 40 posts later, after the feathers are really flying, LavaGirl comes in @186: “Sorry I did get a little expressive back there. But it just seems so obvious to me.. How women present themselves , in the majority- minimizes their animal power. I mean, what is it with high heels? Does damage to the body, and how the hell can one run in them.“
**************************************************************************
There's a pattern of flying off the handle, making inflammatory remarks, cursing at people, and then saying something to the effect of "I don't know why you're so upset."
http://www.pornhub.com/view_video.php?vi…
May work better if you find him half as hot as I do. Sorry if he's not your type. And you might also check out nocute's kink.com suggestion, seems like your thing.
On a more serious note, I think that porn+"scarleteen not being a household name" is a cultural problem on its own, a big subset of "not able to negotiate a mutually satisfying sex life". There's great sex ed, but it's so invisible. I do tend to blame ignorance for most problem, though. My own ignorance included.
Holmes was sort of an exception. He was an early porn celebrity known for his big dick, so back then they'd shoot him even if he couldn't keep it at full mast.
There was an article in The New Yorker called "The Money Shot" that went behind the scenes in the porn industry maybe 15 years ago (before Viagra) when most of the porn was still produced by a group of nobodies from the San Fernando valley who'd be pumping gas if they weren't doing porn.
One observation was that most wannabe male porn stars had trouble getting/staying hard on the set. When that happens, you're left with a crew on the clock standing around doing nothing, and in some cases, they'd have to reschedule or cancel a shoot, all of which costs money and pisses off the female stars. Thus, whenever they could, they'd draw from small pool of otherwise unappealing male actors who's main talent was the ability to get hard at will.
It provides a nice counterbalance to the issues that you (and I, mostly) see as problematic if (as is sometimes the case) porn is your only or primary source of sex education.
It would be lovely if a typical high school sex ed curriculum included pointing the students in its direction.
Why do you care? Do you have reason to think that LavaGirl’s anger is discouraging people from participating? Do you think that tone policing people who do not write for a living is a good way to encourage a diversity of commenters?
Another difference is that a good deal of the time, I agree with you. In fact, the pubic hair episode and this one are the only times I've been in disagreement.
Still a third difference between you and Hunter is that whereas when I have tried to engage him in dialogue, asked him to explain what he means, or to back up statements he's made, or to challenge his idea of why it is women do things he's witnessed them doing, or to disagree with what, for instance, it means to treat someone like an adult vs. a child (back to the Married Ladies comment thread), he just sidesteps and avoids answering my direct questions or responding directly to explicit statements I've made, you do seem to want to have some sort of dialogue.
You make comments inviting me to respond to you, then I do and you get ever-more defensive, sounding for all the world like a teenager.
Contrary to what you seem to believe, I don't dislike you. But I would suggest that you look up the word butthurt in Urban Dictionary: (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.ph…)
And now I sound like a teenager.
Look, I'm sorry to have gone off on you. But if you throw around insults (and yes, "fuck off" is an insult), you shouldn't be surprised when someone gets upset.
I'll stop now.
A moment of insensitivity doesn't equate, to me, with being bad in bed. You haven't had insensitive things said to you in bed, in the moment? If so, did that mean the person you were with, was bad in bed? Maybe, if said person was a bit more aware of how the words might be received, they could be better in bed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=db8FQJTj…
Promise I'll stop posting about porn in exchange.
First, there's no qualifier (that disgusts me is still not awesome, but is at least a subjective instead of objective statement).
Second, it's an indication of revulsion towards your sex partner, not merely an indication of lack of interest.
Anyone who feels like they can objectively declare their partner's sexuality revolting will be an awful sex partner. I know you haven't been on SLOG that long, but surely you've heard of GGG? That's the definition of good in bed, and calling your partner disgusting is the exact opposite of giving.
You haven't had moments in bed, where your partner says something a bit off, insensitive? I have. But that didn't mean they were bad in bed . Which is still the point I was making to seandr a hundred or is it a thousand comments ago.
" correcting" your choice of words, your take on things?
Nocute has been on my case for as long as I've been here, I'm not at all confused. It's sorted.
Your newness to the site was because I honestly didn't know if you knew what GGG is.
Yes, partners can say something insensitive, but then they apologize, they don't double down on calling my sexuality disgusting. I've had that, too, and they were bad in bed. Good, technically, is only the first third of GGG. Anyone who's Good, but not Giving or Game is bad at sex.
Of course a good sexual experience includes giving and being open to ones partners suggestions for certain sexual plays. If, however, the suggestion takes the person way out of their comfort zone, and they decline( with words a little more sensitive than" that's disgusting") to blanket say they are bad at sex, sounds sorta wrong to me. Game to entertain the idea is one thing; if it really disturbs the person and not to follow the suggestion means they are bad at sex?
I wouldn't take a suggestion and rejection of a sexual play as a rejection of
me. I would be upset if something I suggested was responded to, with, that's
Disgusting .. I'm sure I'd vocalize my dislike of someone responding to a suggestion that way; but my sexual identity wouldn't be dented.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRJ_QfP2…
and I wonder if people agree with his overall point. In particular, he talks quite a bit about the effect of porn on younger men and women. Do we think that we (as a set, and I'm being perhaps overly general here, but indulge me) are more able to see porn for what it is (rather than a perfect representation of reality) precisely because we *didn't* have masses of it easily available when we were 12? Will it be different for "kids today"?
Porn has never given me fantasies I didn't want to have. I think this guy is either mentally ill or has a sadism fetish he isn't ready to own.
And I have absolutely no problem creating demand for women who choose to make money in the sex industry. I think the flexibility, hourly rate, and independence afforded by sex work can make it a decent job for those who don't mind the actual work.
I say make love and porn.
@275: Perhaps, but my sense is, from doing some work with teens about 5 years ago, most of them had heard 1000 times that porn isn't real sex, but none of them had ever heard that the Notebook isn't real love. So, why aren't we more concerned about schlocky romances destroying young minds?
Thank you for this. I think good sex ed would make people happier. Would men actually read it though? I think it would work best if men could see an analogue of mainstream vids, shot for women emphasizing female satisfaction/clit worship. I think another problem with this is finding male talent. You can see this guy is having trouble getting out of the mainstream mindset:
http://www.pornhub.com/view_video.php?vi…
And it still ends with the guy coming..
@273 massage genre. sensual is the common keyword, maybe passionate. possibly "for women" but that's mostly FF for women still.
@278 I think sex is the bigger problem because talking about love isn't as difficult for most people. Teens may be taught that porn is not real sex sometimes, but likely not what exactly is unrealistic about it, people don't talk about sex that much.
Not sure what you meant but I agree with, "I've heard women complain about their men coming to bed with crazy new ideas they got from porn. "You want me to do what? That's outside my comfort zone!" In those cases, I'm inclined to think it's the man who is bad in bed."
I think an awkward rollout/PPP is bad in bed. You can talk about your kinks without expecting your partner's desires to align with yours. I had this debate less than a week ago, a douche claim that a partner who didn't push their comfort zone was ethically wrong. In my opinion, comfort zones can change, but it's rude to ask for them to change, it's like asking someone to fall in love with you, it's unrealistic. You play the hand you're dealt, figure out how to work with the person you're with, or leave. Blaming someone for their lack of desire is like blaming someone for their disagreeable desire.
In a long term relationship, it's reasonable to ask your partner to move their comfort zone a little. And a little more after that. As long as you listen when they say "No."
@279 Marie and Jack: a hardcore love story is a passable alternative to illustrate the porn sex/real sex difference too, since it's about a porn star couple who consented to have their private sex filmed too.
Remember that in the original letter, a woman was so disgusted by ordinary porn that she accused her husband of being a cheater and a pedophile for watching it when she was out of town. There's no way that someone so negative about porn could be fully enjoying sex. That kind of insanity requires some very deep-seated, sex-negative emotional programming.
When women say that porn is "degrading to women" period, without any qualifiers, I think that indicates sexual repression rather than just, shall we say, limited tastes.
I understand how young, attractive women in porn and in real life can be threatening to a woman who, um, isn't those things. But that isn't porn's fault; that's life. It sucks that we aren't all born beautiful and that we grow old. I hope science solves that problem some day. Why not see porn as an aid to a couple's enjoyment of sex rather than a threat.
And LavaGirl, you know what a lot of guys below the age of about 40 will apply "It's disgusting" to? Female body hair.
Which I personally, as a woman, think is fine, and up to the individual. But would you be as okay with "It's disgusting!" as "valid" response in that case?
The " that's disgusting", that seandr, dear dear seandr, used was in relation to someone
in his story, a man, suggesting a play he'd seen on the internet and when he suggested it to his female bed mate, she responded with
" but honey, that's disgusting!.. But come here big boy and show me what other moves you got..."
Your point, men saying to a woman, that her body hair was disgusting, is just another story. You want my take on a man saying to me, that my body hair was disgusting? Probably just walk away. Not another word said. From me to him or him to me. Such prejudice is beyond bothering with.
You can go fuck yourself, too.
Oh, and nocute- go fuck yourself."
Ah, the troll attack. Good one puddles. Classy."
Classy? Srsly? Guffaw. Really distinguishing yourself here, LG.
No more, please. This woman and her bedroom talk has taken up way too much of my time.
I teach, and I have over the years become friends with some ex-students. I got married earlier this year--at a courthouse, no wedding--and when I told one of my favorite ex-students, a girl I respect and enjoy who is probably ten years younger than I am, she was astonished that I didn't have a whole "big proposal/big ring/big wedding" story. The fact that we chose, together, not to do those things because they weren't important to us was almost beyond comprehension for her. And that worries me. It's not good for people to confuse a wedding with a marriage. (Or to confuse drama with love, or...we could go on.)
So I'm getting so worked up about this on a Sunday afternoon because I absolutely can't stand it when somebody lumps all women together and tries to pass off their personal preferences or views as the general standard. Phrases like "Most women want porn sex rarely or never" make my blood boil. Some women want gentle sex. Some women like it rough. Some women don't want any sex at all. Some women watch porn. Some women like porn-y sex but don't like porn. You can fight against porn all you like, but of course you realize that your point will no longer sound so intimidating when you stop hiding behind the I'm-just-trying-to-defend-all-poor-helpless-women bullshit. Just say honestly, "I don't like porn, and I want everyone to stop watching it because I don't like it."
Back in high school I had a friend who loved romance novels. She also had a ton of fantasies about the perfect sweet 16 party, the perfect prom experience, the perfect date, the perfect loss of her virginity, the perfect wedding. In all these cases, she went to some trouble to bring her fantasy to life with all the attendant disappointment. For instance, she didn't have a date for her prom so she invited a handsome guy that she knew but wasn't romantically involved with, bought her own ticket, and made him uncomfortable trying to turn the evening into something it obviously wasn't.
By contrast, I didn't go to my prom and didn't miss it, didn't date conventionally, didn't go through any of her important milestones. (Well, I did lose my virginity but not in any approximation of her fairy tale version.) And while I've read a handful of romance novels and seen the occasional romantic comedy at the movies, I've never been drawn to either genre enough to read and see more.
So I have to wonder: Did the romance novels give her the misguided notions about dating and falling in love, or was there something in her nature that drew her to the romance novels? Same question about porn. Granted it's ubiquitous, so easy to find on the net, but one does still have to seek it out, and there's so much variation in what's depicted. Does a man these days really see porn first, then wonder why the real life women he has sex with don't act like the actresses in the pornos? I'm inclined to believe there's something in his nature that draws him to particular sorts of pornography first-- But I say that without any sort of study or proof behind it, just musing.
Well spotted indeed. I've been so privileged as to be able to avoid OS romantic comedies for quite some time now, but the last few I didn't entirely succeed in forgetting have come to mind lately as representing the Triumph of the Betas (or even Gammas). They were certainly full of "Nice Guys" (in the anti-PUA sense of the word) and their female equivalents winning the objects of their affection from Alpha rivals, and often by means that are now being called Creepy.
They also, and I think think this is as much to blame, maybe more so, have a deep, deep affinity for Disney movies, in a way that people my age just never did. I grew up before home video and I think there's something about being able to see those movies again and again (and again) from a very young age that really does do something to impressionable minds. All, men and women alike, have seen some of those movies repeatedly, and many of the women, even at age 25-26, hold those Disney-style version of the fairytale romance up as an ideal.
Crinoline's version of the chicken-or-egg question is interesting to ponder, though I don't think we'll ever know, and I don't think that it's quite so simple a one-to-one correspondence. It might be similar to the way some people have genetic or hereditary predispositions for diseases which have to be "kicked off" by the addition of an outside element.
Canadian Nurse's and ciods' observations are more chilling: These movies are more dangerous than porn. For one thing, they're socially acceptable. If I can be reductionist for a moment, despite my usual irritation with that attitude, I'd say that in many sub-cultures of the greater North American culture, it's uncommon for women to loudly proclaim their admiration for porn. In some, women who like it don't feel comfortable admitting that; many women still really don't like it or certainly don't think it is representative of an ideal relationship or that it depicts reality.
But Romantic Schlock: that's the goal, that's the ideal; to some, that's supposed to be the reality. And as ciods pointed out, every plot is predicated on poor communication. Remember Love Story? No one communicates. No one even tells the dying woman that she's dying--not even her doctor. The famous, totally false, message of the movie (and book it was based on) is "Love means never having to say you're sorry." Excuse me? Love often means never having to say you're sorry--sometimes even if you're not really!
And try being the curmudgeon that dislikes those romances or romantic comedies. There's a lot of social pressure to accept them. I think they're much more dangerous in the expectations they set up because it's fairly easy to say "I'm not comfortable with being slapped/spit on/having my hair pulled/ going from ass to mouth/whatever" and anyone who's had sex a few times quickly figures out all on their own that porn is different from real life 90% of the time (not talking about the very sweet/very hot OS porn that Philophile linked to of that couple who post a zillion videos of themselves). But for some reason, it seems to take a lot of people a lot longer to figure out that The Notebook isn't representative of real life.
Original version by seandr @97:
I've heard women complain about their men coming to bed with crazy new ideas they got from porn. "You want me to do what? That's disgusting!" In those cases, I'm inclined to think it's the woman who is bad in bed.
Revisionist history version by LavaGirl @285:
in [seandr's] story, a man, suggesting a play he'd seen on the internet and when he suggested it to his female bed mate, she responded with
" but honey, that's disgusting!.. But come here big boy and show me what other moves you got..."
"Just having a play." Is that like "why are you saying I insulted you?"
Honestly the combination of making things up out of whole cloth and then the seeming genuine bewilderment when people react logically to those things followed by the back-pedaling attempts to call it all a joke or explain it in some way that completely contradicts the original meaning, followed, when the revisionist view is challenged by childish lashing out . . . well, I've got some theories, but I'll just let the show speak for itself.
>> I think it's rude to just ask for more sex favors >>
I feel that learning to ask for what I want (specific position, specific fingers doing specific things to specific parts) has been an important part of growing into my sexuality. Or did you just mean that men aren't supposed to ask for what they want?
DDD does start with "disclose" -- not with keep your desires to yourself.
I agree that people shouldn't pester their partners, or pout. But simply explaining what one wants, even if it's an idea one got from porn -- that's a good thing.
Care to explain? In the context I made the statement I believe it to be true. Are you saying that you disagree because of your preferences? Do you like the uncovered vulva stuff? Or is it the disconnected/mechanical/unarousing, or the aggressive mainstream porn you prefer to act out? I don't include the offshoots I mentioned in "porn sex". Mainstream porn sex was specified in every post. Except my last, which is between Allen and I unless others need to talk about it. I think I've been fairly clear in most posts.
EricaP also seemed to half-disagree. She said she liked more aggression in bed, but implied she didn't like how it was depicted in mainstream porn. I have no idea where your disagreement stems from.
If it's just general statements about women you don't like, how about most women have periods, or most women need clitoral stimulation to come, or most men enjoy mainstream porn? Do these erase menopausal or transwomen, or women who can think themselves to orgasm, or men who dislike mainstream porn?
I know that not everyone can manage to verbalize their disagreement well. But it's hard to have a conversation with a "porn is good" or a "porn is evil" person. I haven't seen any "porn is evil" opinions yet, just "porn is good shut up" irrationally dismissive posts. I consider that on level of irrationality with SNAP's wife.
@298 A guy told me the Notebook was good and we started to watch it but I couldn't finish it. I learned how to love from my parents and grandparents. I did not learn how to have sex from my parents or grandparents. Thank god. Wish they could have pointed me to Scarleteen though.
About religion and Christmas and BPD on this thread:
"And yes I have of all the usual objections
to the miseducation of children
who in tax exempt institutions
are taught to externalize blame
and to feel ashamed
and to judge things as plain right or wrong.
(But I quite like the songs)"
I hated the Notebook though, maybe precisely because it somehow takes itself so seriously and pretends to be philosophical.
I think it's rude to just ask for more sex favors or love .... a man asking for something he wanted to try from porn in bed is either rude or clueless
You can't possibly be serious.
A women who shames her man for simply asking for sex or sexual favors, even those inspired from porn, is not GGG. In fact, I don't think she's ready for a mature and healthy heterosexual relationship.
It's often difficult for men and women to talk openly and honestly about sex with each other. Men are often afraid to ask for sex - they fear being rejected and shamed, so instead they just let the resentment build, which leaks out into other aspects of the relationship. Some women (like yourself, presumably) are uncomfortable being in the position of saying "no", and they resent their partners for putting them there.
I've had direct experience being stuck in this kind of dysfunctional dynamic, and life got so much better once we figured out how to open the lines of communication. If I found myself in another relationship with a women who tried to shame me for asking for sex, I'd like to think I now have the maturity and self-assurance and communication skills to break that cycle and draw her out so that we could be real with each other. If that failed, I wouldn't waste any more of my time with her.
Agreed, that's disclosing. That's also different from "disclosing" disagreeable desires as a request during coitus. If you're that inept or your desires are so completely different from your partner that a casual request to you is outside their comfort zone, the relationship is most likely doomed.
@303 It's not shaming someone if you don't share their desire and say that. It's pressuring someone to roll out kinks aggressively.
I'm going to not take offense at your assumptions about me because that sounds like a difficult personal story for which you deserve some credit sharing.
If men find it difficult to talk about sex, they should start with more low stakes stuff like asking about what their partner likes, and how they feel about some relevant kinks. You don't even need the bravery to claim your kinks to do this, and a woman would be irrational to take offense at a man's interest in her opinions and desires. If you can't disclose without pressuring, I agree the relationship is doomed.
You could make the same argument about women. A woman who breaks out a strap on when the relationship has been vanilla, or purely about genital physical pleasure until that point, is rude or clueless.
If I don't spend my time watching something, that says nothing about whether I think it's fine for other people.
In my post @174 I said that the stupid stories I get off to treat men just as disrespectfully as any visual porn treats women. I think everyone should watch / read / enjoy what they like, as long as doing so doesn't actively harm other people. (And by "harm" I mean something concrete, not "Porn is degrading to women. Obviously." (@293))
And, yes, I roll out my kinks aggressively in the early stages of a relationship because I'm not interested in continuing to see the person if they see my kinks as "disagreeable."
"that Disney movies and romantic comedies have nothing to do with reality. As for the chicken-or-egg question, my mother grew up in the Soviets without any of that stuff and somehow still managed to develop completely unrealistic ideas about gender roles and relationships."
Because Disney was only re-wrapping fairy tales and old mythology into the medium of film which had been around for thousands of years. And many of these tales are shared by numerous cultures. So, if you are going to mount a fight against the gender stereotypes upon which they are based, you've got a lot more than Disney's body of work to undo. And the same goes for porn. It existed long before the advent of VHS or Super-8.
A lot of our current misogynistic culture in film was created by the Hollywood Code. Which was a creation by a bunch of hung-up Catholics. So things have been better in past times then they have been recently. Japan, for example, had a healthy erotic art culture. Until a bunch of western missionaries convinced them that modernization would require losing the sexy wood cuts. And pixelate the naughty bits in film.
Throughout history, the pendulum of sexual mores has swung back and forth. So the only way one can deal with media portrayal is to understand these histories and watch the Disney movies with an awareness of the particular context in which they were created.
Very rarely did anyone tell me that he got the idea from porn, but I'm almost certain that most of those ideas did in fact come from porn.
I've always been free to veto anything I don't want to do/have done to me, but I have an attitude of "why not try it?" that has served me well. Sometimes I've tried things just to please my partner because I liked him and wanted to make him happy and sometimes I've tried things that he suggested (probably because he'd seen them in porn) because they sounded like they'd be fun to me.
Interestingly, I couldn't predict in advance what I'd come to like, or what I'd come to love.
I think a lot depends on the way the asking is done and the attitudes and communication skills of the people involved. I guess I'm just lucky not to have come across people who are as insensitive as you and LavaGirl seem to have. If someone demanded something of me I wasn't enthusiastic about, or if he tried to shame me or badger me into doing anything we'd have to get things ironed out, communication-wise or relationship-wise or the relationship would be over.
Just as "Love means having to say you're sorry, occasionally even when you're not" is to my mind a better motto than the pablum served up by Hollywood in that movie in 1970, I think that love or even friendship means giving someone else's ideas or suggestions a fair try no matter where he got them.
I agree with Canadian Nurse that calling someone's sexual desire "disgusting" or indicating that you find it disgusting even if you don't explicitly say the word is tantamount to calling the person herself disgusting. I have several times met men who not only couldn't participate in the mildest of kinks, but who questioned my sound mental and psychological health. One guy, hearing what I wanted to do, which was pretty mainstream, asked me what the relationship between me and my father was--and my desire had no age-play, no incest, no daddy/baby issues in it! One guy couldn't talk dirty, couldn't call me a slut, which I consider a pretty mild request. After I spoke that way during sex, and he didn't join in, he later wanted to have a serious talk about my self-esteem and my psychological/emotional "wounds." So yes, if you react to someone's desire by saying that it is disgusting or shameful, I think you are saying that the person herself is disgusting and should be ashamed of herself and her desires.