Columns Sep 17, 2014 at 4:00 am

Get It Together

Comments

1
Would you date you? Wow. Everybody on every dating site everywhere should be asking themselves that one before stating "what I'm looking for."
2
GLC ; oh dear.. Well at least you know this is shady behaviour.
Sounds to me, like you need to join NA, find a sponsor to help you. Go to the group meetings and strengthen yourself against these temptations.
Exercise, eat and sleep well; at 31, you are still a young man.
3
But I discovered after one failed marriage to a man and one long-term relationship with a woman that I want to be in a romantic, sexually committed relationship with a man and a woman at the same time.

While I understand Dan's interpretation, I think FTB means that she wants both the man and the woman to be romantically and sexually committed to her and to her alone. In other words, they can't be a couple, rendering the poly triad advice inapplicable.

And yes, this is the kind of bisexual everyone loves to hate: one who insists that his/her bisexuality provides a "get out of monogamy" card that does not apply to their partner.
4
@3, I had the same impression.

FTB seems to be looking to have two relationships where she's the other's primary partner at the same time, one with a man and one with a woman.

I guess that could work as a "we are all together" triad between the three of them, but somehow it sounds like she's the apex.

I've seen a few poly relationships where the exclusivity was asymmetrical, but I'm not sure that's a bi thing per se.

For instance, I used to know an MFM where she was not exclusive with either of them, or just with them. They were both (each?) exclusive with her and had no other connection with each other than both being her partners.

Dunno if being a Reverse Unicorn will help a bi person looking for this arrangement much, though.
5
It sounds like the type of relationship that LW1 is looking for, is something more emotionally involved than just being some straight-ish couple's unicorn. People, who are searching for a unicorn aren't typically looking to incorporate the third partner into their relationship outside of the bedroom. Still, the rest of Dan's advice is very practical, she should be looking for poly single people that are open to dating bi folks.
6
@5 I don't see why she should look for poly single people. If they're poly, they won't be happy just dating her. Maybe at the moment they don't have another partner, but sooner or later they will find someone else.

My advice: either look for poly people (and accept that they will have partners besides you), or look for single people with a strong reason to devote themselves to just you (for instance, people with a strong submissive streak, or who fetishize your cochlear implants, or introverts who like having time to themselves).
7
I don't think FTB was being that naive. Just ambitious, how does she want the other two to relate? If three ways are (maybe) a possibility, how would she feel if they were getting it on without her?

Getting that much stability in any relationship sounds chancy, but finding partners committed to her, but open to the presence of another, and able to relate to each other so THAT connection stays stable... Maybe unicorn-hunters ARE the best option.

GLC is just trying to start where someone else would have at 18. At home, in school, not much money. Having people to go out with, or have sex with, does not require 'meth and five cocks' evenings. Finding reasonable partners, in reasonable places, is going to be different from the sleazy background that is all he has to draw on.

Calm down. Do school, do self-improvement, do get used to talking to guys you might want to boink without pharmaceutical assistance.
8
@3: I agree. The line that tipped me in that direction was:

"This could possibly involve three-way sex, but probably not."

That indicates to me that LTB wants two separate, full-time relationships with two separate, other people. That implies she hasn't quite come to terms with the fact that she is going to be able to provide each of them half a relationship at most, at least until Time Turners leap off the pages of Harry Potter and into Scientific American. (Cloning won't cut it.) When you finally grasp that there are only 24 hours in a day and 7 days in a week, and absolutely nothing you do will stretch that allotment, you might be on your way to figuring out what you've been doing wrong.

I don't know for sure that LTB doesn't want her partners to have other partners of their own, and she therefore might find what she is looking for in the poly community. But the fact that she doesn't want three-ways, as per above, indicates that she doesn't want to be someone else's third, she wants both of them focused on her, not on each other. The impression that leaves is of someone who is kind of emotionally selfish.

So, LTB, actually, yes, you kind of are "the bisexual everyone loves to hate," and the reason is you keep hooking up with monogamous types and then wanting a hall pass. Being on the receiving end of that when you are monogamous really, really ...really... sucks. Did I mention that it sucks?

Granted, you are also "the bisexual unicorn everyone is looking for" provided that "everyone" refers to couples seeking a third. That might take various forms:
-- one poly couple seeking a true triad (but then there is that pesky three-way sex, and the fact that they are focused on each other as much as on you)
-- or it might be two poly couples that each want someone on the side (no three-ways, but again, good luck getting to be that person's primary focus)
-- or maybe a couple of people who aren't tightly coupled to anyone, but don't mind you fucking around on the side, because that's what they are doing, too. (once again, primary focus? good luck with that.)

But you really need to start looking in the poly community and stop with the monogamous types.
9
Hey, Gay Lost Cause, I was you not too long ago. Okay, 12 years ago. Make a plan. Write it down. What do you want your life to be like in your early 40's? Unless that future for yourself includes being dead or in jail it's time to get off the treadmill you keep jumping on. Dan's right, the next couple of years are for re-grouping only.

It took me a good stint in residential rehab to fully leave behind the drugs (and alcohol). Then 2 full years without even dating. Lots of self satisfaction, but I had to completely cut out the longing for someone to come along and distract me from my issues. Get into a 12 step program. Go to meetings with lots of people who have decades of sobriety - go to AA if you have to to find that level of long term sobriety. Addiction is addiction and you are an addict.

Think about the 40-something you every morning. Picture what it will be like. For me it was a calm, peaceful mind, a small group of close friends, a good man who loves me like mad - who I get to have mind-blowing sex with at will - a great dog and a nice home. Here I am. Here you'll be if you can follow the path beaten by addicts who came before you and made it through. You are not special, I was not special. If I can make it, you can too. Get to work.
10
Yeah, LIB, it is weird to fetishize deaf people. Especially if you're coming from the audiology field-- enough of us feel like you're trying to "fix" and "save" us as it is. If you're interested in these CI boys, maybe you should look at exactly why you're interested in them.
11
If so, how do I broach the subject without turning people off?

a) Become more attractive and charismatic than you currently are. It's easier to get special treatment if there's actually something special about you.

b) Lower your standards.

12
@ #1 -- my thoughts exactly.
13
@5 - In my experience, most couples looking for "unicorns" *are* looking for an emotionally invested relationship. It's sometimes pathetic how desperately they're looking for that.

Now, they don't always have realistic ideas about how that's actually going to work, whether they'd really be happy that way, or the emotionally time/energy involved in a poly relationship. And sometimes they're looking for another partner because they're not happy with each other. But they are, at least in their own minds, looking for more.

Also, bi/bicurious women looking for a casual threesome with friends (especially right after a divorce or breakup) aren't that rare. It's the poly triad part that makes them "unicorns", because most people don't want that, they just want to walk on the wild side now and then.
14
I think it's worth pointing out that a poly triad (or any other poly arrangement) does not require threeways. Triad implies that each person is in a relationship with each other person. That can happen with one of the people not wanting to have sex with the two other people at the same time. Some people just really don't like group sex. And I doubt that would be a deal breaker for most people. However, I do think the really big question is is LTB looking for equal relationships. Ones where each of her partners has just as much freedom as she does. So, would she be okay with the man and the woman she is dating each being with another woman (likely different women) whom she is not dating? If the answer is yes, then date within the poly community. Finding two long-term partners of different sexes should be quite feasible. And they may or may not end up being people who want to date each other, but it won't matter. If the answer is no... then that's a lot trickier, because very few people want a relationship where they are expected to be exclusive and their partner is not, and my advice would be to give serious thought to why you would expect exclusivity from someone else while feeling you do not need to provide it. If it's okay for you and you are capable of truly caring about them and having a meaningful relationship without it, then you should trust them to be able to do likewise.
15
uncut guy here... One thing I've noticed that hasn't been mentioned is that with uncut cocks and condoms you can tweek your sensitivity by choosing whether to put the condom on your cock with the foreskin retracted or unretracted. put it on with the foreskin pulled up and you'll be less sensitive and last longer.

/protip
16
GLC: you make group sex sound like it's always bad. A person can have good, relatively safe (at least for HIV) group sex and feel good after if you do it without the drugs and you've got your act together.

But instead of saving yourself for dating then binging on group sex and feeling shitty after -- sounds like you can't do group sex "well" -- use Grindr for a solo hookup when you're horny (no drugs, avoid anyone who says pnp), then move onto dating and relationships once you've got your act together.

And get treatment for drug use / some type of NA program too. And a part time job.
17
No, no no no, no no no no no no no.
All those couples aren't looking for "unicorns" to KEEP. They're looking for unicorns to fulfill a one-time fantasy, who they can then wish good-bye and go back to their happy monogamish lives. Inserting oneself into a pre-existing M/F relationship as an equal is far, far more difficult than inserting oneself into a couple's bed for the night.

And LTB is right that gays, lesbians, and monogamous bisexuals hate bisexuals like us because we fulfil that stereotype that many bisexuals are eager to smash (we can't be monogamous, because we HAVE to have one partner of each gender).

But yes, LTB shouldn't give up -- it is possible, though highly unlikely, to meet other people who want a triad relationship. She may be lucky enough to find a partner who will agree to her seeing members of the other gender as "secondaries" or casual partners. Me, I've also determined that I will never again settle down with someone who insists that the other gender be permanently off-limits. Good luck to you as well, LTB.
18
@delta35: From your comment @19 over on the "kunyaza" thread (yesterday's SLLOTD):
"Either way Leviticus is wrong, if you lie with a man exactly as with a woman you ain't doin it right."

Thanks for the laugh and the words of actual wisdom. Can I print that and put it up on the wall somewhere?
19
@17 I dunno, a lot of couples are looking for an actual girlfriend - one to hang out with, go on vacations with, date, etc. That's a unicorn. Thirds are more common. The LW should check out swinger sites as well as OKC if that's what she's looking for. If that's not what she's looking for, then prob the people w/ the poly advice are the best so far. Going after the monogamous is the least successful path.
20
LTB - I was once dating someone like you. The trouble (for me anyway) was that she wanted to have women in the bedroom with the understanding that only she could touch them....and i could only watch that part. Basically...the other woman...and me...would both be there for her pleasure. Seemed like total b.s. to me and i told her as much. Perhaps you are sugarcoating what your other partners felt? Wish you would elaborate a bit. It seems your letter is intended to garner a bit of sympathy...without disclosing what the real undercurrent is....that you are too self-centered for your own good. (or this is me projecting...haha)
21
I think LTB would have much better luck if she was open to the idea of her partners being involved with each other, or to them being generally poly and also being involved with other people to some degree.

I'm a bi lady in an open marriage with another bi lady, and we share the same boyfriend--who also has other relationships outside of our triad. Our triad does have a hierarchy--within it, the relationship between myself and my wife is primary--but our relationship(s?) with our boyfriend is still emotionally attached and meaningful. Threesomes are DEFINITELY involved.

It's awesome. Perhaps a situation like this would work if she could be a bit more flexible about what she wants? I do support dating in the poly community, though, or at least among people who know they would like some degree of openness in future relationships. That seems like the place to start.
22
notfromvenus @13 has it right. There’s a difference between a unicorn (mythical creature desired by couple) and a third for a threesome (pretty easy to find).

EricaP explained http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…

“Unicorns are called unicorns because although there are plenty of bi women in the world, very few bi women want to put up with the crap unicorn-hunters demand of them.

Unicorn hunters are usually looking for a long-term relationship. They expect the unicorn will want both the M and the F the same amount, and only have sex with the two of them together (even though the couple will have couple-sex without her). They expect the unicorn to give up all other sexual relationships, and expect her to move in with the couple, without any right to decorate or make any changes to the household, and without the right to keep living there if the relationship ends. They expect the unicorn to understand that she will lose both relationships and her living situation if she cannot keep both of them happy. And often they expect her to watch their children.”
23
To GLC, the fact that you did all this shady stuff "in the past" doesn't make you undatable.

That you did it last night (or the night before you wrote that letter to Dan) is what makes you undatable.

Clearly this stuff isn't "in the past" if you just did it.

If you want to be datable stop. Get whatever help you need for your drug issue and stop doing things that make you feel bad about yourself.

Do that and you start to move into the Datable field. Until then, no, you are not datable. Except to another drug addled strawberry, and two of you getting together won't be pretty.

24
The first letter writer is not the "unicorn girl" that everyone wants where she hooks up with a couple and then disappears, she wants to have separate relationships with a man and a woman that do not overlap (hence her comment that this would be unlikely to result in a threesome).
25
LIB - now i've heard everything.... pun intended. I find it more "weird" that you would write in to ask if it's weird. We are all attracted to whatever we are attracted to.... and the only time you should be asking yourself if something is "too weird" is if it's dangerous to you or the other person...or if it will put one or both of you in jail. I myself am attracted to dirty blondes (both the hair..and the mind)...and if she is wearing espadrilles.... i'm a goner... I have no idea why... but... i embrace it :)
26
@Alison: Loved that one. I had assumed @EricaP was being just a wee bit satirical.
27
GLC needs a 12-Step program. Like, STAT.
28
Heh...I'm also with @3 - she isn't interested in a triad, she wants to be the apex of a triangle.

@LIB - it is an unusual fetish, but then I feel the same way about toes, so there you go. Amputee fetishists and disabled admirers are their own little world. I think the rule is that you have to actually like and be attracted to the human being inside the body, not just the body, whether it's missing limbs, a bulging bulge or a perfect pair of boobs that catch your eye.
29
There used to be a fairly active Yahoogroup for people with hearingaid/cochlearimplant fetishes so yeah, it's out there.
30
@18 Sure! Thanks for the compliment!

And @myself (@16), I meant to add on my comment to GLC -- if you can get therapy, that might help too (gay affirmative / positive therapist), you may also be dealing with depression or other stuff. Some people are just more predisposed to abusing drugs, but often there is other stuff too to unpack when your behavior is damaging you. And good luck to you, GLC.
31
I agree with #3, the line about 'probably not' to the 3-way scenario read to me like the author wanted to play by one set of rules, and her partners play by a different set. If she really wants to get what she is asking for she has to be ready to allow the same openness in return. That or be super fucking hot/rich/good cook.
32
I have the exact opposite quirk that LIB does. My brother has a cochlear implant and seeing them on other people- even attractive men- either makes me sad (by reminding me of my brother's condition) or vaguely unsettled (by reminding me of my brother's long periods of convalescence that I to this day continue to help him through). Gotta say- LIB's quirk sounds way more fun.
33
Awwww @9 - Thank you for sharing your story, even though it was directed towards the LW. Congrats on your success!
34
@26, hanging out on the fetlife poly groups, I see far too many of these unicorn-hunters. So I was being fairly literal. They don't put most of that in their ads, just the part about how it'll be a closed triad and how they hope she's available to move in soon.
35
GLC, I don't have quite the problems you have, but I did very deliberately take a year out of dating, because I recognized that I wouldn't want to date me.
I had a lot of emotional stuff going on, recovery from a divorce, death of a close family member, and a bad injury and operation, that all happened within a few short months. I was in no fit state to date anybody, even though I had been dating a friend for a few years, and probably wouldn't have made it through all that alone. I was a mess, and he was probably suffering that. So, I quit. Intentionally. We are still good friends, and he understood why.

A year later, although I still didn't feel quite ready, I met a wonderful, amazing guy that I am really into.

I really think that the intentional act of cleaning yourself up, whether from drugs or from emotional codependency, is a huge step that more people should consider, rather than bouncing from relationship to relationship, like I had been doing.

Well done GLC for recognizing that much, that's a huge head start many people don't have, and will indeed (when you're ready!!) make you a great dating partner, regardless of your past. Everybody has a past, so don't feel bad about yours, just make sure you want this enough to make it happen.
Good luck!!
36
Dear Gay Lost Cause,
Please don't ever think of yourself as that again. It's time to explore why you have been doing things that make you feel bad about yourself. As other people have mentioned please seek out support and treatment for your substance abuse. Try yoga or tai chi or dance. Begin to see your body as the temple that it is. You deserve love. Just because you are human. Treat other people well. It will come back to you.
37
@ 26, 34 - I thought EricaP was being realistic, not sarcastic... albeit a tad cynical.

Great description, btw, EricaP. You really nailed it.
38
Thanks, Ricardo. I have to say, I have fantasies of a male unicorn -- a guy who would live with us, watch the kids, cook, fix things around the house, hide in his room when we wanted privacy and show up ready for sex when summoned. But at least I'm aware it's a fantasy!
39
Perhaps I am projecting but....

LTB seems like a dream. Bisexual, up for threesomes, doesn't rely on her husband to meet all of her emotional needs (perhaps she is a Leafs season ticket holder too). I don't think she needs to be on fetlife or poly websites. She just needs to date men and disclose her bisexuality up front. I bet most men will find it to be a huge plus.
40
@39 - I myself have never been able to date more than one woman at a time.... just can't split my heart/mind enough to give either of them enough attention.... so its very hard for me to understand how so many people can.... I guess i am saying... i for one would not find it to be a huge plus... Rather, i would let her go.
41
Gay Lost Cause,

As someone who went for 2 years with a crap job and then made the decision to head back to school for another 2 years living at home with my mum, I was in the same situation sans the drug thing. I still live with my mother because she's old,has a shit ton of medical issues that she needs someone with her all the time. I say that to point out there's no shame with living at home. It's not like you're sitting around eating bonbons and watching soaps all day. You're trying to get your shit together and your parents are supportive by letting you live at home. If they don't make little digs about money,take advantage of their generosity. Respect that it's their house,help out...

I did a 4 yr degree in 18 months because I wasn't working. It's up to you to either get a job or focus entirely on school. Forget dating,forget sex and make friends who want the same things for you. Make friends from your college classes,stay the fuck away from clubs. I had this philosophy when I was rushing my 4 yr degree: I ignored everything for 18 months because I have the rest of my life for them. We're the same age. Even if you finish at 35, you have 35 years left to fuck,date,sex,have fun,etc etc. Why not trade the 4 yrs or however long it takes for your schooling for the 35 years(based on an average life span of 70 yrs)?

As for your meth shit, let me just say this first: I have been told I have no empathy,so keep that in mind. Why the fuck would you risk jail time or death and/or diseases? Do you not have any self control? You're really not date material unless you're into dating the lowest common denominator. Clean your shit up,focus on school, get a job if you want and understand that there's more to your life and your future than the next hit of meth.

Make the choice to not be a statistic.
42
M? Fan - Good for you. But I presume you don't *hate* those who happen to be incompatible. Even those monosexuals of my acquaintance who were bi-pressured into accepting unilateral exclusivity didn't generally come out of those relationships with hatred towards their opportunistic partners.
*****

Mr Horton - Probably not up for threesomes. But you can dream.
*****

Mr Finch - The *apex* of a triangle? You are dancing on the edge of a good Brodiesplain. Ms Cute, would you care to do the honours?
*****

A quarter of a point to Ms Erica for being able to appreciate a fantasy as a fantasy and leave it there.
*****

Does anyone else find four-person relationships much more aesthetically pleasing than three-person? Although they lack the problematic patriarchal elements of MFFs (let alone FMFs), MMFs (even those reminiscent of The Hours) are still unpleasantly out of balance. If there must be multi-person relationships of mixed sexes, one with two Ms and two Fs, all bi with a slight straight lean, has the sort of pleasing symmetry that even Hercule Poirot could approve.
43
@39 yes it does sound like a dream! I have a slightly different dream more like EricaP's of having a cute bisexual guy in our house who sleeps with me and my husband separately and otherwise doesn't get much in the way...I fear the reality of maintaining another intimate relationship outside the bedroom would be too much for me, though. On the face of it though, what's not to like?
44
To Gay Lost Cause (GLC)... hey man, I was totally you except 10 years older... started my gay-slut-sex-and-drugs-phase around forty and was doing truckloads of meth soon thereafter. It was totally fun, totally crazy, just what it is, right? You probably don't regret the crazy drug, fueled sexcapades, it's only the aftershocks of using meth: the depression, the lack of confidence, the confusion, the subconcious realization that the behaviour is meaningless... because it is... extending your sexual drive out from an hour to several days is completely useless behaviour, no matter how good it feels, it's a short circuit of brain pathways.

To tell you the truth, my sex drive disappeared, that's the only way it stopped. One day, I wasn't insanely horny anymore for cock. And if not horny, well why do drugs? It took several months to peter off the routine, and then a full 2 1/2 years for me to get over the depression and the uselessness of not being a 'crazy/over the top' sex-obsessed gay guy, cause isn't that what all gay guys are? Esp. when they are your age?

So now, what everyone else said: get a job, any job. Going back to my job was my saviour as it takes up your day and makes you focus on something other than yourself. Your meth addiction was a short circuit of an inward-facing loop. You need outward facing activities to break it: work, volunteer, take care of other people, be involved with other people, normal people that don't do drugs.

Good luck, my friend! I'm fine, I so enjoyed my crazy period, but it ain't ever happening again.
45
@Tim Horton: Yup, you're projecting.

She isn't up for threesomes--or at least not more than very occasionally.
"This could possibly involve three-way sex, but probably not. It is more about sharing my life intimately with both" --in other words, she want a coupled relationship with a man, and a coupled relationship with a woman. She doesn't appear to want them to have anything to do with each other. She wants to be the exclusive object of each of their affection.

I don't know how much of a dream it would be to be left alone when it's her night to be with the woman. I don't know that she is willing to allow her hypothetical partners to have their own outside partners as well. Presumably, the man would be straight and the woman, a lesbian.

It's different for her, you see: she is bi--she is special and needs to allow both her sexual preferences their will.
46
Mr. Ven,
Re: Brodiesplaining: Yes indeed; this letter has all the makings of a Brodie-Lloyd-Sandy triangle.

47
Or a Lloyd-Brodie-Sandy triangle.
Or a Brodie-Sandy-Lloyd (less compelling, but still somewhat there).

What about the John Dowell-Edward Ashburnham-Florence triangle or the John Dowell-Florence-Edward Ashburnham triangle or the Leonora-Nancy-Edward or the John-Nancy-Edward or the John-Edward-Nancy
or the John-Edward-Leonora triangles of Ford Maddox Ford's The Good Soldier?
48
Love triangles are so much more interesting when they're equilateral.
49
LIB asks how you pick up a guy with a cochlear implant? Easy! With a magnet ;)
- Cochlear Implant User
50
@28 Or, she's not interested in a triangle, she wants to be a vertex of two line segments. She wants her own angle! I'd think triangles or single line segments, even quadrilaterals would be more stable. Now I want to reread Flatland.

I didn't like the advice to GLC. Mostly because he had just relapsed, it seems from loneliness. I'd redirect that to making friends and healthy casual sex (after STI check). Just because he probably won't meet his Mr Perfect now doesn't mean he can't grow sexually with people.

What does he have to share? Presumably he can have sober sex with people he finds attractive. So get an STI check and that's one. He could develop healthy interests to share (not meth). Either mental, like social or career topics, or hobbies, sports and other physical activities. He could share his experiences at NA meetings.

I don't see how he is not getting on top of his problems, besides this meth slip, and getting a job. But wait years to date?

He sounds like his worst problem is low self esteem. And I don't think the solution is to avoid dating unless he wants that. I don't see why he'd be undateable if he had a job and stayed away from meth.
51
As @21 points out, LTB might be able to have her wants met if the other two people in her relationship are able to sleep together. So while there won't be threesomes, LTB might sleep with her male partner one night, her female partner another, and then the two of them will sleep together a third while she occupies herself elsewhere in the home (or runs an errand).

Tim Horton, you're asking for too much. I hear Leafs tickets are pretty hard to come by.
52
LTB; you seem to be getting a bit of a bad rap here. Maybe if you're reading, could you clarify if your dream scenario includes your two people also being able to have relationships elsewhere? Seems pointless to me, to chat about your ideal situation if I'm not really clear on what it is.
@49; novel plan.
53
@1 portland scribe: For the win again! I'm still humbly asking myself that same question.

LTB: While I'm not particularly a "unicorn" myself, I have been reading a lot of feedback in Savage Love columns from MF couples seeking gals just like you, even if only to fulfill a three-way fantasy. Good luck--sounds like there's a lot of that out there!

54
Dan, in my experience you couldn't be more wrong about what MF couples are seeking from a unicorn. The reason they are always out there searching so desperately is because when they find one all they want to do is use her up and spit her out within a few months, then start the search for the next one. I would love to be part of a committed MFF poly triad but nope, they all say they're poly at the beginning but after a few months I inevitably hear "oh but we're a COUPLE", like the triad they said we were all in a few months earlier never existed.
55
Dan, in my experience you couldn't be more wrong about what MF couples are seeking from a unicorn. The reason they are always so desperately seeking a unicorn is that when they find one all they want to do is use her up and spit her out within a few months, then start the search for the next one. Sure they all say they're poly in the beginning but after a few months I inevitably hear "oh but we're a COUPLE", as though the poly triad we were supposedly all part of a few months earlier never existed.
56
@42 & @50 - "Apex" was the wrong geometric metaphor, I was struggling and in a hurry. @50 gets out what I was really trying to say:

@28 Or, she's not interested in a triangle, she wants to be a vertex of two line segments.

The best triangles I can think of have a chain-link-love arrangement, and in this case it appears LTB wants to be the only link.
57
"Retention skills" -- another great Dan Savage line!
58
I wouldn't say that bisexual women open to threesomes are "easy" to find, just much "easier" to find than those that are open to being a poly third.
59
It sounds like she wants what poly people call a "V", with herself as the point. I really wish she'd jump in here though, cause she didn't explicitly say they can't have other partners - though I think many of us are inferring that.

If you want to be in a relationship with two people, you will likely have to accept that they too will have other relationships, whether with each other or others. Date in the poly community and you will not have much trouble. If you're trying to make monogamous people into poly-accepting by virtue of your bisexuality, get a grip. It's a rare monogamous person who transitions to poly without their own motivations and desires to fulfill. It's also somewhat challenging to find them at the same time rather than one and then the other. Building a stable foundation with a poly identified person is what I would recommend, and then seeking another.
61
@45: "It's different for her, you see: she is bi--she is special and needs to allow both her sexual preferences their will."

Bi doesn't always mean poly relationships. There are those who just have more options open to them in a search for a single life partner. Polyamory, perfectly balanced, is tough to maintain even only on an emotional level. Forget about figuring out who does what to whom between the sheets. So most poly relationships consist of a primary couple and some ancillary hangers-on. It beats trying to maintain a relationship by committee.

Given LTB's search for male and female partners with herself at the focus, this is starting to sound like a bisexual cuckold fantasy. Otherwise, her partners might each have another, or each other on the side. And from the sound of her, "I want my desires fulfilled" without thinking of the others needs, that's what it sounds like she's after.
62
Ms Cute - I see I should have specified a right-angled triangle. LW1 apparently wants to be the square on the hypotenuse, like Miss Brodie, while the Kerr sisters were only the squares of the two sides.
63
Dan, do you ever get tired of bisexuals trying to trick you into saying something "biphobic"?
64
@42 I've heard of something like this quadrilateral you speak of. As a long rectangle, with pair bonds on either end. They switched opposite corners once and kept having kids. Also nearly the plot of Marmalade Boy.
65
@61: To clarify, Holmes, in case you didn't understand me, I don't think that bi always means poly. I was irritated by this particular letter writer and her attitude that naturally, as a bisexual person, she can't be expected to adhere to monogamy because that closes off one of her avenues of fulfillment.

I'm not necessarily pro or con monogamy, either. But I do criticize the notion that bisexuals couldn't possibly be expected to commit to one sex for ever.
66
I see no reason to infer that she wouldn't let her partners have other partners.
Not being into group sex doesn't make you a narcissist.
67
@65 I didn't notice the letter writer implying that this was generally true of bi people, just that it was true for her. So, it's entirely a question of, can she do non-monogamy ethically. She'll obviously need to be honest about what she's looking for and find partners for whom that works. The really big question is: is she okay with her partners having other partners? And the letter is ambiguous about that.
68
@42,50, 56: I think I may be responsible for "apex". In my defense, it's been years since I did proper geometry much.

Also repeating the point made at 3, I don't really see wanting unequal exclusivity as a bi issue. An issue, definitely, unless the other partners are really okay with it, but not something bi people would necessarily be more disposed to look for.
69
@66: YMMV, but for me it was the all the superlatives with which she describes her relationship style and what she wants, that leaves me with the impression that she wants to be someone's primary to two people simultaneously. That's quite a feat. Being someone's primary tends to imply that something more than 50% of your attention is going to that person, and until LTB learns to break the laws of physical space-time and mathematics, there isn't 110% of her to go around.

But she wants that level of romance and sexual commitment with her partners, plural. (I am trying to figure out what being "sexually committed" to more than one person even means.)
70
@69 I disagree. Being primary to two people isn't about percentages, it's about depth of relationship and commitment, at least for many people. For example, I'd consider somebody to be a primary if we spend significant time together, are emotionally close, have committed to a long-term future together (a good test is things like, if I were to move or make a job change, I would not decide it on my own but would discuss it with said partner or partners first and expect the same from them), are either planning to not raise children or to raise them together, have a commitment to financially aid each other as we need it, etc. Basically, if you're committing to for better or for worse, in richer or for poorer, then I don't require sexual exclusivity nor a guarantee that it will last (although one would expect an active desire to try to make it work, rather than with a less serious relationship where one might break up very casually) to call it primary. And this sort of commitment can easily be made to two people, if you choose to and it works for everyone involved. It's not even necessarily hard to give multiple partners all of the time that they each wish if either those partners also have other partners and/or there is a significant mismatch in desired alone/personal time. Some people want twice as much togetherness time from a partner than other people want, which would make them a very bad fit in an exclusive relationship and potentially a good fit in a poly one (if they are, in fact, poly).
71
Oh, that’s interesting — different meanings of “primary.”

Level III vs first. Like avast2006 (I think?) I use it to mean “first,” as in this is my basic relationship with the life partner I’ve built my life around and everyone else is just good friends (“secondary”). There can only be one “first.” We also see this use when we talk about a primary couple in a triad, say where a single person has joined a married couple. The couples formed between the third and the individuals in the primary couple are secondary.

Uncreative uses it to mean a level of commitment and engagement, and you can seriously commit to and engage with more than one person.

I think some people on the thread are using “commitment” differently too. For some people it’s committing to a choice, like coming to a fork in the road, picking one path and not looking back. Committing to raising one’s children, for instance. If a choice presents itself that would interfere with that commitment, it’s rejected. If someone commits themselves to a partner they cannot also commit themselves to someone else.

For others a commitment is a promise. A parent can commit themselves to keeping each of their children safe and loved, or be juggling competing commitments throughout the day to, say, a public appearance, doing groceries, cutting a friend’s hair and taking their grandmother to the opera while keeping their business running so their employees can get paid. It’s possible to honour promises made to more than one person.
72
I admit I'm reacting to the tone in LTB's letter. She doesn't say that her fantasy/future partners aren't allowed to have their own outside partners or that they're not allowed to be involved with each other. But her characterization of herself as the bisexual everyone loves to hate is bourne out by the tone in her letter. If I'm judging her too harshly, I apologize and I think a lot of us would invite her to write in and set us all straight.
73
I think I'm a little jealous of this woman. Or envious.
Why she thinks people hate her, or hate her " type", makes no sense to me.
I wish I had had the courage in my youth, to explore attractions to women, sexually. Those catholic nuns, with their weird undercurrent of lesbianism, made it such a forbidden and " sinful" direction. Late onset lesbian( lol), not beyond my reach, I guess.
Expecting her two partners, to be just with her sounds, however, a very far fetched expectation. If that is what she expects.
And if it's not what she expects, and they are " allowed" other partners, then her expectation for everyone to be committed and trustworthy etc, could get difficult to achieve.
Humans, being such messy creatures.

74
Exactly what @2 said for GLC.

http://www.na.org/
75
The LW whose boyfriend has Bipolar, has joined in over on the other thread..
76
To Gay Lost Cause: My husband, a therapist, has several aphorisms that he trots out with some regularity, because there is a lot of truth in them. One of his favorites is: You attract as healthy as you are."

I think he's right. In the times of my life when I was needy and desperate, I tended either to attract other needy and desperate people, or I attracted people who sensed my neediness and were willing to exploit it. When I made peace with being single forever, and build a solid, independent, fulfillng life....in walked my husband.

Dan's right: get a job, save some money, make progress with school, and get yourself on track. When you've done that, you have the framework for a healthy dating relationship, and the rest will fall into place.
77
@65: I agree with your interpretation of the situation. The whole "I'm bi, so I need one of each" is the logical equivalent of my liking brunettes, blonds and redheads. In most cases, you've got to pick one to build a relationship with. And even if you are fortunate enough to negotiate a little playtime with the others, there is one primary partner. Should any conflicts arise, I will always know what my priorities are.

Yes, some people can balance a triad. But its tough. One would be better off looking for a monogamish relationship and a few friends on the side.
78
LavaGirl @75, thanks!
79
@76 "You attract as healthy as you are."

I like this. I have a similar one: "You are attracted to people who provide appropriate challenges for your stage of social development."
81
@77; Holmes. Er, no. Hair colour is a little different ..
Is the LW just saying she wants " one of each"? I hear her saying she wants to have committed relationships with a man and a woman.
I do agree with your idea, though. That maybe have a primary relationship, and secondary relationships, for both people. It is, however, not how she wants to go.

82
I'm one of those unicorns, happily living with a married couple and raising our now 2 and a half year old daughter.

The difference between us, much as what Dan identified in his wise retort, is that I didn't over-philosophize my longing as some point of outsider status. I met them, I fell for them over time, we grew close first as friends over many years, and then decided to be crazy people and have and raise a child together because we thought the three of us could better provide for that child together than we could apart. In other words, we didn't seek each other out solely for adult relationships, even though we all knew we were more open than most on that score. That makes us a bit different from other poly folks we've met, but we don't invest emotionally in convincing anyone that our setup is somehow superior to any other, which sometimes is hard given the shit we get from the conservatives we know, particularly family members who've disowned us.

On the flip, it's also hard to suffer the I-Renamed-Myself-Great-Open-Spirit-Because-I-Seek-To-Commune-with-Everyone types about whom we wonder: do they get fucked often just so someone can momentarily stop them from yammering on about their poly theories? To those we say, "Look, we've got bills to pay and shitty diapers to deal with" and then find ourselves all nostalgic about last week's trip to the park when some random stranger approaches to ask, "Um, I'm confused...who are her parents?"

The upside of your situation is that you know what you're looking for so you have a chance to find it. The downside is that imagining yourself a martyr in said pursuit may sabotage your efforts.

A lot can be achieved in life if you lighten the fuck up about your imagined heavy load. There is, after all, humor in everything, to paraphrase Dr. Suess.

PS. At the risk of furthering stereotypes, I thought the bisexual everyone loved to hate was the hip, lipstick wearing chick who fucked women on occasion to prove her sexual radicalism and then went back to men, leaving legions of butch lesbians in her wake whose friends warned them they should have known better.
83
Yah, maddy811.. Good talking.
84
Ms Maddy - Is it worse to break a butch's heart than a femme's?

Yours is half an entry; she would have to be paired with that (largely) relic of the past, the bi man who would flaunt his straight-acting privilege in his gay partners' faces (which would often take the form of only indulging that facet of his sexuality in a highly seedy and surreptitious manner) while demanding their sympathy, admiration or envy for/of his situation.
85
So, I have two pieces of advice for LTB. One is that she should look for partners in the poly community, but learn to accept that this will mean that her available partner pool is going to shrink drastically. I think this is a hard thing for a lot of less experienced bisexual women to face, because they're used to just going out and getting dates, and arbitrarily shrinking the pool in such a manner is kind of a shock to the system. It's worthwhile, but it also takes some getting used to.

My other piece of advice is to really examine what styles of relationship she could round up to "perfect." It's very hard to have exactly the same kind of relationship with two different people. She could go in either the more polyamourous direction, which other people have thoroughly explored (for example, having partners who have partners other than her as well), but she could also go in the less poly direction, meaning being fine with a primary partner and a long-term FWB. The difference might not be super obvious, but I think it is significant- the second is more of a social monogamy with activities you enjoy with a close friend, rather than really trying to make a huge romantic connection to each person.
86
Hi. I'm writing this in response to "Love Them Both"'s post, and the reply. I mostly want to say that you're not alone, just like Dan says. I'm 18, but I realized a couple years ago that my dream relationship is one where I have a female lover and a male lover. That fact is, I adore both boys and girls, and I don't think it's impossible to be in love with two people at the same time. "Monogamous relationships are the only relationships" is a thing everyone has been brainwashed to believe by society, and it's a way of thinking that started back hundreds of years ago when the Romans popped up, and then it got more enforced with the birth of Christianity, but before that, polyamorous (Poly= more than one; amorous= love) was a very common and accepted occurrence in daily living. What I'm trying to get at here is that it is perfectly acceptable, no matter what anyone says, as long as everyone is open and communicates with each other, which is something that is required for any good relationship.
Anyway, to sum this whole thing up, I'm going to recommend a video to watch on youtube. It's called "2 BOYFRIENDS!?-POLYAMORY" by the amazing Laci Green. It's a great video for anyone to watch to learn more about multi-persons relationships, and I also encourage anyone to watch her other videos as well.
Best of Luck!
87
sounds to me like Dip Shit has some wood chips on his shoulder, yes letter writer, it isn't that everyone hates you, it's that they don't want to see you succeed in finding the relationship you want

of course, they won't tell you their hypocritical passive aggressive ways to sabotage you are happening, as that makes them worse than the fucking morons that constantly bad mouth their relationship choices which the love to cry foul over, yet just like those assholes, these assholes assume they know how it is and you only think you know what you want,

the jist of it is, if they failed, they'd have to switch to adult underwear if they were just going to let you succeed, and pseudo-intellectual over privileged white internet journalists don't wear grown up underpants, even as they set there and talk shit about "you need to get your shit together LW"

I'd tell you not to worry about the shit egotistical bratty internet journalists say, but that would imply that I don't know full well that the LW was a creative writing assignment written by EBIJ idiots

why don't you check craigslist LW, as none of the POS journalists write fake adds as a pass time and none of them are there flicking their passive aggressive bullshit there, well, not under the same profile names anyway
88
@70 uncreative: I like your characterization of a relationship, but I'm going to agree with Alison @71 that for most people, the term "primary" itself implies a single, most-important relationship. Otherwise why not say "committed"? Primary implies an ordering, at least to my ear. And in that context, yes, it's impossible to have two primary relationships (although of course it's not impossible to have two committed relationships).
89
@70: I hear your definition of primary, and I don't dispute that some people may choose it. I was going by "primary" implying that it was in the #1 position, with all others being "secondary" to it. Some people choose that definition, too. I'm not going to try to claim what fraction chooses which definition, but they both are clearly in play.

Be that as it may, there was also the concept of a certain minimum level of committed, active involvement and meeting the needs of the other person. It is difficult enough to spend enough of your time and personal resources on one person to make them feel that they are at least "a" primary focus, if not "the" primary focus, for you. Let alone two or more being treated that well. Does one intend to sleep at all?
90
ciodes @88, I don’t know what most people think primary means in the context of a relationship. I know what I use it to mean and now I know that I can’t assume other people use it to mean the same thing. I need to check.

It’s good to check that people are using words to mean the same thing before getting into long arguments. That’s all I meant.
91
@88 Probably depends where you live. I regularly hear primary used to signify degree of commitment, not most-important relationship. For example, someone may say, I want a secondary relationship, but right now I'm not up for being in a primary relationship with anyone. And I'm not sure how that would make any sense in your terms. And people having two primary relationships isn't that uncommon. I would emphasize what Alison Cummins says at 90, usage varies - ask explicitly what someone means and wants.

The letter writer didn't use the term "primary" anyway, so it's kind of meaningless if I'd call it two primary relationships and someone else would call it two, equal committed relationships. The fact still stands that this isn't an uncommon poly relationship and absolutely does work for some people. But is only likely to work well if each partner is free to have other partners of their own too. Poly-monogamous couples do sometimes work out, but that's a much more difficult path filled with a lot more potential problems. So, if she's okay with her partners not being exclusively with her, she should date within the poly community.
92
Letter writer #2 needs to get tested for HIV and other STD's immediately, for obvious reasons.
93
To Gay Lost Cause:

You don't have to be perfect, Dan's right about that, but you do have to be trying to improve. I'm gay, and my now-husband had a past similar to yours and he's doing better now. And I'm someone who many would consider quite a catch (sorry to flatter myself, but it's objectively true - I'm emotionally stable and caring, not a model but not bad looking, a good lover, Ivy-educated, six-figure salary, own a home in a great location, work flexible hours and don't normally flatter myself like a bore like I'm doing here).

Get yourself stable. Get interesting interests. Learn how to earn and keep someone's trust. I'm not promising you'll right a perfect man, but if you can do those three things, you'll have a better shot than you may think at finding stable and real love, despite your past.
95
@GLC

I think what you most need, is some encouragements. You sound depressed.

What Fortunate said. Only what you did last night makes you undateable, not your shady past. And, get tested.

You don't have to stay sexless for the one or several years that'll see you through Dan's program.

But meanwhile, 5 cocks in a night and drugs isn't the non-shady way to get some action. I'll let others chime in on how to find partners for NSA sex with your particulars (no money, living at your parents' home), I'm sure they know.

As for the "lost cause" aspect. Rest assured you're no more a lost cause than someone your age who'd have led a nice quiet comfy partnered life until some unexpected circumstances (like the loss of a job or a divorce) sent him/her spiralling downwards, thinking his/her life was never going to recover from there. The one advantage you have over such people, is that you're not responsible for any kids yet, so you can focus all your energy on yourself.

If you do the hard work and stay committed to improving yourself, you'll be living quite a different life in 10 years' time, when you'll be a hunky 40-something with a "rich past", and I mean that as a quality. Just the fact of having led a different life from most, if you can break away from it, can be a real bonus to your later personality. For instance, your experiences from your shady encounters will come in handy in distinguishing the disgusting old pervs from the honest retirees ; something most people can't do. Also, you could write a book telling your life story, there's always a public interest in that. Don't consider that your shady past is a lifelong curse, it's not. It's just how you've lived your life so far, and now's time for a radical and committed change, since you don't like it.

In 10 years' time, if you don't stay committed to your recovery, you'll still be the undateable, same old. You don't want that. So, focus on the well-being of yourself at 40, whenever you feel like relapsing, it will help you succeed.
96
@uncreative

From which part of the world are you ? I find your primary/secondary definitions quite agree with me, and I'm an European.
98
@97 Hi Hunter!

AFinch @28 took care of objectification early in the comments.

And why do you always mention patriarchs? Is that a misogynist? Or any gender-bigoted person? I could see how the latter might make sense in your post, if LIB were attracted to male weakness and wasn't ethical about it.

@93&94 Yes we need to know every sordid detail of how you physically love your husband to believe that you have a loving satisfying relationship. Spill! Now!
99
I'm in a triad, and my experience is it is very difficult to make work, even among three people who are incredibly compatible and love each other. It's asking a lot to find a couple who will accept you into their relationship as an equal. They already are a couple and will think of themselves that way and you'll be stuck as the third. One or both may find you threatening, and you may get tossed. It's telling to me that you don't want to have sex with both at the same time. What it sounds like to me is you want separate relationships with a man and a woman. There's nothing wrong with it. People do it all the time and it would be easier and probably emotionally more fulfilling than some kind of fantasty three-way romance. Best of luck to you.
100
@97: "I think devotees are fine in that they give gratification to the disabled. But they should recognize the inequality of their relationships."

You don't know what the hell you are talking about.
101
Sorry Hunter ; can't see any cause to bring my gold plated pitch fork out.
Nice try.
102
Hey Mr Quite A CAtch.. My my.. Your boy lucked out.
103
@96 I'm American, and I've lived in a few different places, mostly the northeast and northwest. I'm not entirely sure whether it's entirely regional or more just different subsets of the poly community. I used the terms as I am more familiar with their usage, but I also do know of people using it to indicate a ranking.

I just really, personally dislike ranking relationships. I used to do that in Elementary School; it was kind of a thing kids did. You're my best friend, and you're my second best friend. And it might shift, and as I got older, it felt very immature. I much prefer to view each relationship (whether romantic or friendly) as its own important relationship and evaluate it based on how close I am with that person and how it is working and so forth, so I gravitated to the word usages that worked better for me and they were common among the poly people I know. I do agree that you can't just view a relationship in total isolation, because you do need to think about time commitments (same as you would for anything you want to do with your life), and if you're going to have kids then that brings up a whole mess of, who is parenting, can they all get along, and so forth. But I do prefer generally not thinking in terms of ranks and hierarchy for social things (it works fine in professional situations though and is often quite useful in them).
105
yes.

    Please wait...

    Comments are closed.

    Commenting on this item is available only to members of the site. You can sign in here or create an account here.


    Add a comment
    Preview

    By posting this comment, you are agreeing to our Terms of Use.