Columns Nov 12, 2014 at 4:00 am



I like the theme this week. Good call on the 19 year old GF
OH, no comments yet, maybe, there are already some which haven't been here when the site loaded.
For AHW-- One of the horrible things about Catholic guilt is that it digs in so deep that sometimes it's hard to sort out that not all feeling bad is guilt. Sometimes we feel bad when we're not guilty. Sometimes weird awkward things happen that aren't our fault:

Like a 28 year old man getting cancer!

Like a 19 year old girl just starting out navigating sexual relationships having a boyfriend with cancer!

Like having a dear friend and ex-lover come down with cancer!

This sucks for all of you, and I'd bet that those nasty sinking feelings in the pit of your stomach are because it all sucks and is awkward for a thousand smaller reasons that having nothing to do with God or punishment or anything you've done wrong or guilt.

As for your specific questions-- I'd guess that you're not jeopardizing anything for him. The cancer is doing that. For a fair number of 19 year olds, it's hard enough to figure out how to get through an insurance company's phone system much less how to be primary care-taker for someone getting chemotherapy. I'd guess that this young girlfriend was glad you were there to give her some time off in the tea fetching department. If she's not glad, it's more likely that it's because she's feeling inadequate in the overwhelmingly hard job of taking care of and being emotionally supportive of a man who's feeling nauseated and fatigued (and worried). If she's jealous, it's more likely because you're more competent than she is by virtue of your being older. Did you help him cheat? Probably not.
I disagree with Dan's advice to NUNYA. I don't see a reason for anyone to announce what they're doing sexually in relationships to people unless there's a reason for those people to know. (Bragging doesn't count as a reason.) Similarly, I see no reason to make general announcements about non-sexual relationships. The whole thing smacks of bringing people who don't want to be involved into something they don't want to be involved in.

If no one's asking, perhaps that's because they have no desire to know. Perhaps they can guess something is going on but don't want details.

I wonder that the question is more about a responsibility to the public and doesn't address what GF wants to tell. She's the one with a stake in this, the one who might need to consider what her other sexual partners would like to know and to control whether she's perceived as single to someone who might want to date her.
I was surprised Dan didn't mention that the young girlfriend may have been uncomfortable because her boyfriend has cancer and is going through chemo. That's a tough situation. I think most people in that situation, especially when so young, would not be acting their best. A bit of awkwardness might be related to that. It's hard to say without being there, and the letter writer didn't give us enough to go on. But I wouldn't rule it out.

@4 Exactly. When friends of mine announce they're dating or that they're engaged or getting married, I reply, "Why would you ever tell anyone that? It's none of anyone else's business, so keep it to yourself!" No, wait, I don't. So, if it's normal in your social circle to tell friends when you're dating/involved with someone (as it is for most people), then why shouldn't NUNYA? And the answer is: there are other people involved and it should be discussed with them first. But if they're all okay with it, then of course he should come out if it is safe for him to do so. After all, his friends already know about one of his relationships, so he already made it clear that he's in an environment where people come out about their relationships. This falls under the general category of coming out: share as much as would be normal in a mixed-sex exclusive relationship about your relationship that doesn't fall into that category.
NEFH's fiancé not being interested in getting "some other ass" without her participation indicates that he isn't "feeling that he missed out because [they] got together so young." He's into her participating in a 3-way.

Before they get married, they need to have a few successful 3-ways in which she enjoys exploring her bi-curiosity. Otherwise it could become a serious sexual incompatibility issue later on.
AHW - I liked the answer. But if she hasn't asked yet because of a gut feeling that he's cheat-y, I doubt assurance over the phone would help now. I think she should talk to his current girlfriend to make sure she's not participating in something she could regret, so that she can feel good about her place in his life. It's too bad she didn't open her mouth at the time but she can still be there for her ex by smoothing things over with his new gf now.

NEFH - Disagree with Dan. If your marriage is starting with such pushiness, it doesn't bode well. Has he shown disrespect for your preferences before this? Is it about him being abusive, or is this an isolated event about cold feet in marriage? What would he do if you needed a similar mfm threesome, where you had sex with 2 attractive men, before trying for another ffm? Would it make him leave in which case he might start to realize how awesome being with you was? I think you should listen to your gut on this, it's a bad sign he didn't care that you weren't into the last one.
I agree that NUNYA shouldn't have to hide. Being out is not just answering questions truthfully, but calling your girlfriend "my girlfriend" and correcting mistaken assumptions if they come up. No need to rent a billboard imo unless you're fighting for some personal cause.
One thing I'd advise NUNYA: Women tend to underestimate the degree to which their male friends want sex and romance and men tend to overestimate the degree to which their female friends want sex and romance. She should say straight out that she wants friendship and not a new relationship and exactly what she means by that. It might not prevent him from misreading her but it might make her feel less guilty if things do go awry.

As for NEFH, relationship counseling before they tie the knot. If her guy is sabotaging now, there's no reason to think he'd stop after the wedding.

"Then I finished grad school and wanted to talk about moving to his city. He simply refused to have that conversation, and we broke up."

What, why?

What I get from this is, that he didn´t want to have you close, but you´re good enough to be groped and take care of him while he couldn´t even sort out things with his girl-friend so she doesn´t have to feel awkward?

Dump that egomaniacal motherfucker already. My God.
I feel like I'm reading a different AHW letter than the rest of you. This guy:

-- Refuses to move their relationship to the next level (i.e. not long-distance)

-- Asks for her to come out and support him when he gets cancer

-- Turns support into cuddling and some groping with this woman he dumped a year ago because he couldn't commit

-- Doesn't inform AHW ahead of time where thing stand with his girlfriend, who, at 19, is basically a kid to his 28-year-old self, and allows AWH to be in a perfectly predictable awkward situation rather than having an adult conversation to manage expectations.

And AWH's first two questions are about this dude's feelings. Seriously. I'm sorry he has cancer, but he's not good news. He's immature and very ill. Be supportive, but be supportive from wherever you live -- and move on, fully, which it sounds like you potentially haven't.
Sucks that AHW's ex has cancer, but he also sounds like a bit of a user. I don't think AHW needs to feel guilty. I also wonder if there isn't a bit of "don't you wish I was living in your city now?" going on in her head.

NEFH - find a girl you like, and who's OK with your fiance being along for the ride.
There is absolutely no reason for AHW to feel guilty. It was up to her ex to state the boundaries of his current relationship, not up to her to figure it out. Also, I agree with @12 that he sounds like a user. I doubt AHW was ever really his primary partner, he probably just let her think that so that she would stay in his life.

By the way, guys in their late 20's (or older) who date teenage girls are usually immature asswipes.

"I doubt AHW was ever really his primary partner, he probably just let her think that so that she would stay in his life."

Same thought here.

"It was up to her ex to state the boundaries of his current relationship, not up to her to figure it out."

Why she didn´t ask him about the new girl-friend is beyond me. Seems like he´s a thoughtless egoistic asshole and she´s the typical enabler.
NUNYA: You might just try bringing it up when it comes up. For instance: A friend makes a derogatory remark, or just an assumption, about poly people. You reply, "Not all of us poly people are that way / That's not how poly relationships work", etc.

NEFH: Finding a unicorn is NOT that easy; you need to make your pushy fiance understand that. Do agree to put efforts into making it happen, or, Dan's right, it won't happen. But Dan is also right that NEFH needs to realise the likelihood of this happening, even if you DO make efforts, is very low, and focus on the relationship between you two. Maybe you can work group-sex porn into your sex life?
On coming Out Poly,.... I recently gave a class on this topic at Beyond the Love in Columbus Ohio. The whole class is based on my blog post about it but can mostly be summed up with a quote from my wife: ”You don’t have to wave a banner to carry it.” By that she means there isn’t a need to shout from the roof tops, draw attention and make a scene, but rather by living our lives quietly and openly we can make a big impression."

Be yourself. See my whole blog on what inspired the class at
When Dan says "poly people are all burners"...what does that mean? I'm unfamiliar with the term in regards to people...especially poly people.
If I know midwesterners (and I do, I'm married to one), AHW will start torturing herself about all the things she "should've" done that people are pointing out in the comments. Should she have asked about the new girlfriend before, or in the moment? Should she have let him do this or that? Should she have dumped him a long time ago?

"Should" questions are useless--don't torture yourself like that! You made your choices, and probably thought you had good reasons for them at the time. Instead, focus on the future. Midwesterners are a pathologically polite bunch, but it's not too late for you to learn to ask the hard questions, AHW, and Dan's suggestions are a good place to start. Then, when you get some real answers, you can set boundaries with your ex that YOU feel comfortable with, whatever they may be.
AHW; not sure what you are feeling guilty about? The man is sick, you visited him and showed him some care. And you live away from him. And it was a weekend. Not sure how you see your behaviour could wreck anything.
However, before you go visit again, talk with this guy about your discomfort. See the status of his relationship with the 19 yr old.
The boy is sick. You were giving him some care. I see no problem.
10, 12, 13, 14---thank you, I feel the same. Being open, staying close with exes is all well and good but then there's also the reality of people who use those things to manipulate partners and exes. If this guy were a true friend he wouldn't be putting her in an awkward spot with his current gf. Yeah, he has cancer, but that doesn't make him a good guy. Anyone almost 30 who's dating someone fresh out of high school is pretty likely an immature douche. Good to know that tits and ass are good for chemo patients though! Legal medical prostitution here we come! ;)
NEFH seems considerably clueless if she thinks "we are both happy" -- that's obviously false if this threeway issue is all her fiance can talk about. I say DTMFA.
I think Dan missed a key piece of AHW's letter. "Then I finished grad school and wanted to talk about moving to his city. He simply refused to have that conversation..."

I agree that they are close enough that she SHOULD be able to ask that direct question, but it seems like this guy is unlikely to give her a direct answer. I bet he has been just as indirect with the current GF.

AHW seems genuinely caring, but I wonder if this guy is just using her. Somehow he doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would return the favor if she were the sick one.
@17: "burners" == people who are into the burning man scene. A lot straightish poly people are in fact burners, at least in Seattle.
NEFH - find a bi escort, make arrangements, and roleplay some scenario so it seems "natural". jeez, is that so difficult?

btw, yes, he does feel like he missed out. even then, you've given him a chance to get some action outside the relationship. break up with him for being so petulant.
@20. I can see how touching breasts and arse could be very therapeutic.
All that nice soft flesh, take a man's mind right off feeling nauseated.
@23 - Seandr.... is that true? or are you messing with us? (sometimes i don't know if I am dense, gullible, or simply naive....ha)
I don't think Dan answered Nefh's letter, or he got it mixed up with another. Even the opening sentence When a person says she wants something sexual to happen "naturally," NEFH, what she means is "spontaneously." is pretty insulting, when she defined naturally as without pressure. Plus he acts like she hasn't been going to swinger's clubs and even giving this pressurey NOW crap a shot.. the result was needless to say I did not enjoy myself very much during this encounter.

I like the advice to just book a pro and be done with it. Except she evidently needs some tools to respond to rudeness and stand up for her desires as well.
@26: It's the #10 definition on Urban Dictionary, so I'm guessing @23 was being legit.…

(I didn't know, either - maybe it's a more common term in the West than on the East Coast...?)
@27: I agree. Book a pro, but also maybe take a step back and examine BF's behavior.
@19 LavaGirl: Bingo, regarding AHW! The only questions AHW might ever need to ask her ex are about both the LW's and her ex's 19 year old girlfriend's thoughts and ideas, and where they all stand. Otherwise, AHW did nothing wrong as far as I can see.

AHW, stop banging your head against the wall! You sound like a wonderfully caring person, and your ex should consider himself lucky to have your continued friendship--especially in his critical time of need.

@23 seandr: I don't know exactly what you mean by "burners", but I haven't reached my projected hot flashes quite yet (please elaborate further--I couldn't resist the opening, and the term makes me think of a scene from Mrs. Doubtfire).
@28 mockingbird80: O-o-kay. Thanks for the provided new burner definitions.
AHW's ex does seem like a twit--he didn't want her to move out to his city when she was done with grad school and when she visits him when he has cancer, he decides to have a little grope session behind his current girlfriend's back.

I do agree they need to have a talk, but if he refuses to have that conversation to set his 19-year-old girlfriend's mind at ease, she needs to leave and not come back.

As for NEFH--what a bully the fiance is. If he is so fixated on the three-way that he can't enjoy a two-way while they're searching for the right partner, she needs to dump him. What kind of pest will he be after they get married if he's this way during their engagement? And maybe it's me, but I found it pretty rude for him to have sex with the other woman who wasn't interested in NEFH.
@ChairmanOfTheBored: Is that true?

Well, one usage of "burner" is a reference to someone who's into burning man.

Polyamory definitely happens among burners. In all of its forms - poly, swinging, hot wifes, cuckholds, hall passes, cheating.

I assume that's what Dan meant by the term, since it's the only meaning that makes sense in context.
NEFH, you are not “the reason he can’t have what he wants.” The reason he can’t have what he wants is because
(a) it’s not easy to find two women for a threesome, and
(b) it’s even harder if you’re a lazy jerk who doesn’t try to give partners sexual pleasure and won’t put much effort even into figuring out how to satisfy His Own Damn Fantasy.

Also, threesomes are just his current obsession. If he had ten threesomes, he would probably get over that obsession and find something new to obsess over.

My advice:
1) Have a serious conversation to verify that his fantasy is about the sexual adventure, rather than wanting an ongoing relationship with a third person (ie polyamory).

2) If he wants the sexual adventure, hire a pro (as others have said). Threesomes benefit from having someone experienced at threesomes, good at giving pleasure, and good at pretending to enjoy the scene, regardless of what happened. Repeat several times. I bet that having a few of them will dampen his desire for them. Especially if he knows you’ll do it again when he scrapes together the money to hire a pro again.

3) If you can’t hire a pro, go back to the sex club but you lead the way. Find a woman you connect with, and have a fun bi-sexual experience. Let him experience being the one left out. (Or he can join in and have a great time if the other woman turns out to dig him.)

4) But along with those adventures, insist that he bring that same excitement to your two-way sex. He can do that by talking about the next threesome, whatever works. If that kind of talk turns you off, then you’re probably not compatible. Because in the next few years or so he’s likely to shift to another obsession, and it will help if you can engage with his obsessions through fantasy talk during sex.

5) Have you guys considered opening the relationship? That would help clarify that figuring out how to satisfy his sexual needs is fundamentally his job, not yours. You’re GGG, but you’re not a magician who can make other women want his dick.

6) don’t get married while he’s treating you badly in bed: “We used to have a great sex life, but now I feel as if I have to beg for it.”
Oh, forgot to add one important part: Have compassion for the poor testosterone-poisoned boy. I gather it can be really unpleasant to be tortured by a sexual obsession in that way, unable to think about anything else for more than a few minutes before the obsession creeps back into one's thoughts.
@mockingbird80: maybe it's a more common term in the West than on the East Coast

Probably, since "burner communities" seem more of a thing in west coast cities, with the exception of Detroit and maybe NYC.
Wow - talk about Dial P for Patriarchy. All these male-run relationships - which could get the old FTWL if I had a sense that full and free agency were being exercised by the women, but I don't get such a sense in any of these letters.

The juggler in the first letter tentatively strikes me as a male version of Quinn Morgendorffer. It's tempting to admire the ability to keep all the planets orbiting.

The second letter has a fair amount of leeway, but I'd like to poll all the other parties involved to see if they all give the arrangement LW's rave reviews. The letter also reminded me a little of ancient Egypt, where a man might have a wife, a "sister" and a concubine (perhaps in various numbers). To come up with something practical, I'd suggest going with whatever the children tell people - they've had a third parent or semi-parent imposed upon them (I'll presume without their input until it's proven otherwise) and it seems only fair to give them some say. It's not as if this were a triad at the moment of conception.

I think our third LW should take a hiatus of six to twelve months and date only women. At the end of that period, she will either have become addicted to having her own wants and preferences in a position of at least equal importance in a relationship and decide that her hetero lean isn't worth maintaining, or the idea of being applied to for her own preferences will disconcert her (as much as Lady Bertram was disconcerted when Mrs Grant asked her to choose whether she would prefer to play at whist or speculation) and she will run back to being thrilled to take the old-fashioned wedding vows with the O-word included. Maybe the fiance has been taking a page from Sir Thomas and solving all LW's difficulties for her.
Why does LW1 have "Catholic guilt" about this situation when she's UN-Catholic enough to have multiple sex partners? NOT judging - I'm an atheist and former fornicator myself, but she needs to free herself of those bonds, and she clearly isn't following the church anyway. The situation sounds awful, and there's a lot there wrong with the "relationship": he didn't want her to move to her city, and now he's dating a teenager? YIKES! Get a drink, get some therapy, and move on!
A "burner" can also be something disposable and possibly without ties to ones real identity, like a burner cell phone, or a burner account on a message board. In terms of polyamory I would think that would address the temporary nature of some poly relationships - and the idea that poly relationships can only ever be a temporary thing. That was my first interpretation, maybe I'm going too far with it, and Burning Man also came to mind.
"She's still a teenager--the whole concept of exes remaining on good terms and being there for each other during a crisis may be new to her."


I have an ex I still consider a close friend. His very young girlfriend stated categorically that she did not want to have any contact with any of his exes. He almost refused to attend the birthday celebration of a mutual friend because I would be there and she didn't want him to go without her.

I don't know what it was. Maybe she thought there would be some sort of grudge, rivalry, jealousy, or other drama. Maybe she was worried that he had lingering feelings for me, and that seeing me may stir them. Maybe she thought I'd resent her for dating someone I used to date.

When you're a teenager, you're so addled with a rush of hormones and unfamiliar, powerful emotions. Break-ups at that age are almost guaranteed to be messy and fraught with drama, because you haven't yet developed the coping skills that experience brings. It's much more realistic when you've mellowed and matured to be reasonable about remaining friends despite no longer dating.

P.S. In a heterosexual relationship, I once had a spontaneous three-way. Our unicorn was the same aforementioned mutual friend, who both I and my then-boyfriend had slept with independently before we all slept together.
This is how one ought to promote polyamory and usually-but-not-always monogamous relationships: report that they can work and that decent people make them work.

The other mode---calling true monogamy 'impossible' or 'unnatural', with the aid of non-reviewed evolutionary psychological just-so-stories or not, is both silly and sounds more like a bluff protest against childhood religious indoctrination than a credible argument.
RE: Burners. Yes, Dan is almost certainly talking about people into the "burning man" style scene. Although it's worth pointing out that there are many, many other "burns" (smaller Burning Man like events) throughout the country. Burners are typically derisively compared to hippies (especially by other burners) but I've found that it's sort of a modern weird amalgamation of hippies, bikers, veterans and raver cultures while being separate from all of the above. Feel free to do some more research on the interwebs.

But TIL that I'm a stereotype. A poly burner. I can live with it :)
NEFH - "I think it should just happen naturally if it is going to happen."

This is the kind of thing that hetero men hear from hetero women a lot. It seems to hetero women that sex "just happens naturally" without any effort on their part. That's because it's the men who are doing the work to MAKE it happen, including making it SEEM "spontaneous" or "natural" (so they don't scare the women off by making them think there is a sexual agenda - which there actually is). If men weren't making that effort, hetero women would have to work for sex the way most hetero men do.
Dial P for Patriarchy indeed , Ven.
The poly guy sounds to me like a real ponce.
" she even picks up the kids".
No sense of the women's stories at all, except in reference to him. Maybe he's rich, keeps them all and they just go bout their lives as they choose, presenting appropriate face to Big Daddy.
Huh. I think Dan underplayed the red flag with NEFH.

She says: "He thinks about it all the time, and it seems to come up in almost every conversation we have. I feel that this goes beyond just a fantasy. We used to have a great sex life, but now I feel as if I have to beg for it."

She's thinking of marrying a dude who can't have a single conversation without pressuring his fiance to have a three-way, and basically won't have sex with her because of it? That's a needs-counseling level of obsession. There is nothing, including food, my dog, and or my job that I talk about in EVERY conversation. I would get that couple to therapy, ASAP. DO NOT MARRY THIS MAN UNTIL THIS ISSUE IS FIXED.
@ 38 - I am the only ex-catholic I know who's managed to shake off the catholic guilt thing almost entirely. It's a form of brainwashing, and it's truly hard to stop thinking that way.
Most of my atheist friends remained catholic until late adolescence/early 20s, and they still carry that burden now that they are in their 40s.
Of course, I renounced all religions at age 11, so maybe that helps. It still took me until my late 20's to manage the feat of not feeling guilty for nearly everything I did or didn't do, though.
When i was younger (and i am only 40 now)... a burner was someone who smoked too much weed. Funny how often phrases get co-opted and their definitions become generational or niche. Guessing a burner was something else entirely for my grandparents generation too.
Ricardo...we finally have something in common. I got kicked out of sunday school as a 6 year old for being atheist. haha
Agree @45. Suggestion, NEFH. How about you, take some time out from this relationship? Go date some other young men. See how YOU feel, after being with guys who enjoy you sexually ,don't bring up their fantasies in each conversations
( rude little fuck), and with whom you don't have to beg to be with you sexually.
Yes, yes. You have been with this boy forever. He is, however not taking care of you and the relationship he has with you. And this, before the wedding? Not a good look at all.
@EricaP: Have compassion for the poor testosterone-poisoned boy

That's as apt a description of male plight as I've seen. Testosterone can definitely make a fellow miserable. Very sweet and thoughtful of you to call for compassion.

I think this guy's fixation is being fueled in part by anxiety over the coming wedding, to a high school sweetheart no less.
@33, @36, & @50 seandr: Did I piss you off about the subject of burners? I was trying to be funny in my comment about Mrs. Doubtfire.

@griz: No, of course you didn't piss me off.

Speaking of Mrs Doubtfire, Robin Williams used to go to burning man.
ACCIDENTAL HOME WRECKER: Your actions are not accidental. You knew he was in a relationship and were close enough with him to have him grab your tits, but not close enough to ask what the condition of his relationship is.

You wonder how you can be viewed more positively by his present girlfriend. Why not be more considerate and talk to his girlfriend first before giving in to your selfish needs to feel affection from your ex again.

The lack of mention of any boyfriend makes it even more apparent to me that you very likely wanted this type of affection from your ex and didn't want to stir up and bad feelings by bringing up his girlfriend.

This type of behavior is frequently found in regular cheaters. Clean up your act and think about communicating first before getting tit and ass grabs by men in relationships.
@52 seandr: Okay--whew! Just checking. Bless you.
So Robin Williams attended burning man---oh, yeah, that's right! I remember his line about the 60's---"If you remember 'em, you weren't THERE, man!"
Rest in peace, Robin Williams. Thank you and bless you, too, for the laughs and tears. You are sorely missed; heaven got another good one.
GOOOOOOOOOOOOD Morning, VIetnam!!!!!!
ACCIDENTAL HOME WRECKER: Your actions are not accidental. You knew he was in a relationship and were close enough with him to have him grab your tits, but not close enough to ask what the condition of his relationship is.

You wonder how you can be viewed more positively by his present girlfriend. Why not be more considerate and talk to his girlfriend first before giving in to your selfish needs to feel affection from your ex again.

The lack of mention of any boyfriend makes it even more apparent to me that you very likely wanted this type of affection from your ex and didn't want to stir up and bad feelings by bringing up his girlfriend.

This type of behavior is frequently found in regular cheaters. Clean up your act and think about communicating first before getting tit and ass grabs by men in relationships.
There is an interesting common theme to the women writing in. They both seem to be reasonable, even generous people. Certainly compared to their romantic interests. Yet both feel guilty. You can feel guilty when you are hurting others. But you can also feel guilty when you are hurting yourself. Feeling guilty about being reasonable and even generous is the hallmark of a doormat imo. Therapy.

(I thought a burner was a stoner on the east coast, burning man partier central and west, and temp cell phones everywhere)
@ 48 - We are also both human beings... unless there's something you're not telling us.
"We used to have a great sex life, but now I feel as if I have to beg for it.
I am completely satisfied."

No, you're not.
@ 53/56 - I hope your being sarcastic, but since it doesn't look like it...

Have you not considered that for her to "get tit and ass grabs by men in relationships", there has to be men in relationships grabbing her tits and ass without any consideration for their own girlfriends? Who's the guilty party here?
The young woman whose ex bf committed suicide, has posted on the other thread.
I just wanted to say, the illustration made me more sad than the actual first letter where the guy comes off as slightly douchey. Seeing the illustration framed it differently for me. Sad.

I'm with @4 on NUNYA - although I don't think Dan said (s)he had to reveal it to others - I think these kinds of things are need-to-know and it sounds like the people who need to know are already aware...the rest is "look at me". Don't hide will percolate through your monkeysphere, which is how the world gets changed.

I'm also w/ @6 on NEFH I think, although she should be wary, because it may also be that he wants her to sleep with other people so that he can...and he's pressuring her so he won't "owe her" if he uses his break/pass. She ought to proceed with extreme caution about the, do not do it until this gets worked out completely...and stop feeling guilty for having your own conflicting (with his) desires.
@AHW: I don't think you did anything wrong, but I also don't think anything positive is going to come out of interacting with your ex more than you have to. If I were you, I'd steer clear of this whole mess, and avoid your ex from now on. Not for the sake of his girlfriend, but for your own.
NEFH--I was in a very similar situation, except I wasn't a virgin nor was I bisexual. But was engaged to high school sweetheart who was a virgin before we started dating, who then became totally obsessed with threeways.

I can tell you your instincts are correct. You both need to take a six-month break from the relationship. Do not get married to this man until he has successfully dated and banged other women. You will have to be the one setting the terms because he will be too fearful.

Dan's radar is off on this one because of his own particular situation. He probably hasn't been around too many guys about to get married to the only sexual partner they have ever had.
Hunter, @62, some of us read both SL and SLLOTD. And when the original LW joins into a conversation late in a thread, it's a courtesy to alert people who might want to go back and read the LW's perspective. Here's the thread in question:…

Thanks, LavaGirl!

Hunter @65: you're wrong.
NEFH: "I have always been bi-curious, but I never had the opportunity"

Thank you, Ms Erica. To answer the malevolent post, I shall clarify that I have too high a regard for the vast majority of lesbians and L-leaning bi women to inflict a straight woman upon them. Those who prefer such get FTWL.

I suppose it's possible to raise the objection (anticipating the actions of opposing counsel) that the bi-curious are unlikely to end up exclusively in the minor interest, although that could be splitting semantics very finely. But one might have a hard time guessing how someone who has never had an adult relationship in which her wants were equally important to those of her partner would react if suddenly she found herself through the looking-glass.
Love you, Hunter. If only cause you can be such an arse, and hating is bad for the soul.
The other thread, is the letter of the day, thread. I get confused what the names are.
You indeed, may not care, others however , had responded to her letter.
That letter from the young lady was so heartbreaking, I didn't have any response. No problem, EricaP.
I love Dan, read him every week. Disagree with every answer today. DTMFA #1 & #3, how about #2 talks to his girlfriend and wife and they make a decision best for all of them and their family? Sheesh.
@72 there is so much wrong here that I can't even.
Like I said. Love you, Hunter.
And love to you too, Alan.
I've been reading Alan Cummings memoir, and more heartbreak.
If I had the money, I would open a Fathering Academy.
A place where trained therapists helped men work thru the blockages that prevent some of them, from loving their Sons well.
I do think there is truth in what you say Hunter. Though not just because women are so strongly sexualised. It's true, such imagery catches a lot of women's erotic gaze as it does a lot of men's.
Also, the intimacy women can share, means the sexual crossover to being bi isn't that big a stretch.
Alan Cummings is in The Good Wife. He is just a great actor. And he's just been in Cabaret, in NY. After winning a Tony for a previous run..
He is so naughty in The Good Wife. Love him.
His memoir includes descriptions of a very abusive father..
Not sure what your last paragraph refers too.

@74 It's hard to take that level of douchebaggery seriously. But I think he is. And although "wrong wrong wrong" may work better, I'll attempt the explanation.

"Bicurious means very little, esp if you're a woman."
To YOU. I try to treat the feelings of women as seriously as the feelings of men. And to question someone's reported orientation is fucking rude. The most charitable explanation I can imagine is that you are concerned that she's being bullied into saying she's bicurious. In which case I can go back to last week's chat on consent. That's the line, and although I think Mr Nefh is bullying her about setting up threeways I didn't get the impression she was lying about the bi-curious desire.

"Bicurious means you think about it, but you've never actually committed a SS act; otherwise you'd just be bi. "
To YOU maybe. Maybe you think you'd be bi if you tried it out. Again shitty to tell other people how to feel. Someone else might still feel bi-curious, or even more SS or OS depending on how they were bicurious... I mean, if Dan started seriously considering that having female lovers might be fun, I'd call that bi-curious too. In which case he might feel even more SS after. I think ? that happened when he was a teen.

"Women have been so highly sexualized, it's not surprising one might wonder what it's like to kiss that beautiful woman."
Movies tend to show more of what it's like to kiss the girl and less about the approaching mouth of a gorgeous guy. So they leave less to the imagination while overtly sexualizing the woman. If you added "in real life" to your question it would make more sense. But I don't think a few movies have much of an effect next to hanging out with attractive potential partners and real life experiences. I guess I can only give my perspective; I'm not interested in women and the advertising/movie trend is annoying to me. But I'm ok sharing the world with others.
Oh year. Agree . I didn't enjoy that show either.
Yep. No s
Alan Cumming.
Some people are saying that the AHW's ex is an immature selfish prick, but I'm disagreeing. They had a relationship, it ended when they had a disagreement about goals. Not, oh he didn't want to take the relationship to the next level so he's a douche. Why is he a douche for not being ready? He's being honest. AND they remained friends afterwards, which means she doesn't think he's a douche.

A year later he gets a diagnosis that may mean early death in the long-term, but certainly means suffering (chemo) in the short-term. I think he's entitled to being a little selfish about the comforts of a familiar ex. His next steps will determine if he is a douche in regards to his current gf and ex.
Okay, I say I’m bicurious or heteroflexible and have for five years, despite having sex quite a few times with women. At my age (45) if I labeled myself “bi”, women would rightly expect me to be comfortable with pussy. But I’m not.

At my age, and dating only within the non-monogamous pool, the men my age are dating women in their late 20s to mid-30s. I have a choice of dating men in their 60s, or dating women my age. I’m pretty far over toward the straight side of the spectrum (I never fantasize about women), but a 45 year old kinky woman starts to look pretty sexy compared to a 65 year old man. Also, I’m attracted to dominance, and I see kinky women in their 40s taking on a new self-confident dominance while I see older men letting go of their macho dominance (which I love) and exploring their submissive side (less appealing to me).

So, I’m exploring my interest in women. I’m happy to kiss, and fondle above the waist. I’m happy to have BDSM scenes with women. I’m happy to strap-on a dick and fuck women, and I’m happy to have a woman fuck me with a strap-on.

But touching a woman’s pussy with my fingers, let alone going down on her, is still very difficult for me. It feels icky and unappealing, although I like these women and wish I felt differently about their genitals. I’ve done it, oh, a handful of times, always hoping that I’ll meet the right person and start to feel comfortable. And I remember that when I was new to cock (age 16, 17), that also seemed a little weird and icky to touch. I got over it. So I keep waiting to see if I’ll get comfortable with pussy; maybe I just haven’t met the right woman yet.

The way I see it, I’m situationally willing to engage in some sex play with women, as long as they don’t mind me not touching their pussies except with a dildo or vibrator. It would seem very strange to label myself ‘bi’.
G20 starting today in downtown HOT Brisbane, Qld.
Barack just arrived this morning.
EricaP; sounds damn unfair you have to go with the 65 yr old men.
No young men around, happy to be with an older women?
Alan Cumming and Juliet Stevenson as the Eltons gave the most blatantly spot-on performances in the Paltrow Emma.

He has had bad luck as Mystery host in that the whittling down of an hour's television programming from about 50 minutes to about 41 minutes over the last thirty years or so has eliminated the closing piece of the host, as works that used to be presented in two one-hour segments are squished into one hour and a half. I recall with great fondness some of the closing pieces - Diana Rigg recounting how Major Armstrong made up twenty-one little packets of arsenic when he only had twenty dandelions in his garden, or Vincent Price describing the different breakfasts Bertram's Hotel offered guests from the UK or the US, listing the glories of Full English and then making a ghastly face at the breakfasts offered Americans of orange juice and cold cereal.
Cool, Venn. You took me there...
Ms Lava - One might guess that young men interested in middle-aged women aren't likely to want to dominate them.

Also, do you know why so many women are using "women" as a singular, as you just did? This is happening about as often as people's writing "loose" when they mean "lose" - both relatively new things that never happened when I was in my prime. I've been formulating a theory that arithmetic is patriarchal ever since I asked Ms Cute if she was given the Math Is Hard! Barbie as a child, but I have not decided how serious that is yet.
EricaP; I'm the opposite, in that I have very erotic fantasies where women are involved, yet I've never been with women.. Just was way too attached to men .
Now however, I have been able to explore my eroticism alone. After 40 odd yrs of always having male company, I now find that energy is not in my orbit.
I've really enjoyed exploring my Lesbian self ( aren't all Catholic women?those of us from the 50s-60s, when Nuns were still on board. All girls school).
Oh Venn. I just missed that mistake in my edit. I meant the singular.
I find women beautiful. I love looking at them. I am a product of this culture and see the sexualization of them all the time. Sometimes I deplore it, but often I don't think twice and I appreciate the beauty and the sexiness. I am not in the slightest sexually attracted to women. No bi-curiosity here. I could never do what EricaP has been doing.

(I have to say, I'm older than EricaP--52 to her 45--and have a less desirable body type--she's slender as I recall and I'm voluptuous--but I don't see my dating choices as between 45 y/o women and 65 y/o men; most of the men I date are between 40 and 58, and I get hit on by men in their 20s and 3os, which I'm mostly not interested in. But I don't require as much BDSM as EricaP does, so maybe that's the difference.)

But I don't buy the "women-are-naturally-or-more-easily-bi-curious-because-they-see-sexualized-images-of-women-all-the-time" reasoning.
Mr. Ven, I've seen "loose" for "lose" for at least 15 years now. I think it's a pronunciation thing: speech transcribed to writing. After all, it's pronounced "looze," whereas "lose" should by rights be pronounced "loh-ss." In that sense, it's an eminently logical error. And don't forget there are choose and chose, in which "chose" is pronounced "choh-ss."

I haven't noticed a lot of "women" for "woman" yet.
YikesL: I meant "chose" is pronounced "choze" as opposed to "chooze." English is so inconsistent.
Oh shit; the linguistic police are on board. I know Venn, my children constantly say they took something off someone. No children, you take things from people and off a Xmas tree.
And one of my boys actually says" I seen" instead of
" I saw".. Amazing. Obviously, no Catholic nun education went on there.
LavaGirl, Hunter78, vennominon, et al.: I LOVE Alan Cumming!

He is quite the charming brown-eyed Scotsman.

Okay, now I have to go watch Romy & Michelle's High School

Reunion again. All hail Sandy Frink (I am SO Toby Walters it's

actually kind of scary)!

I'm...just-a girl, in the world...............

Barack just delivered a speech at The University of Queensland.
Oh, I want to keep him here. Please Barack, could you stay on and be our Leader?
While I'm on a roll here, on a hot Saturday afternoon.
I'm discovering how music really resonates with the body.
Guilty pleasure is repeated listening to the Black Key's last album. Dan and Patrick are wild musicians.
Dan sings some very sensual notes.. Great effort.
And other music to activate other senses. Music .
@LavaGirl: And one of my boys actually says" I seen" instead of " I saw"

Ha! I used to say that back when I was a scrappy middle class kid, but my accent was more US midwest than Ozzie.
nocutename, you're single, right? That makes a difference.

Also, like you I don't date much younger. I'm content with the risks I take, but don't want to worry about accidentally passing a bad STI to someone and affecting their fertility. So I only have sex with people who no longer want to have children.
Ms Cute - It surprises me that you rarely see a singular "women". I see it more often than "loose" for "lose". The interesting distinction is that the latter seems to cut across most general markers, but the former is almost exclusive to mainstream feminists. (Some radical feminists use "womyn" as both singular and plural, the old "wymyn" as a plural having disappeared.) One might think it would be an MRA sort of thing.
I have never denigrated women's feelings comp men's.
Reread the quote I responded to. "Bicurious means very little, esp if you're a woman." Bicurious is a feeling. Oh god I don't want to respond to any more of that stupid insulting mess, if you can't understand my post, I don't even care.

But now you're telling EricP how she feels isn't really bicurious. Shut the fuck up about everything if you can't understand that you don't tell people how they feel. It's the rudest verbal behavior. For example; Hunter spends much more time than any truly straight guy thinking about gayness. It's a shame he's too afraid to act on his impulses. I think bicurious is a better label for him than straight.
@Hunter, sometimes I think of myself as a pussy-tease, just as I was a cock-tease as a 17 y/o virgin, when I would touch cock tentatively, but wasn't prepared to lend much of a hand/mouth, and certainly wasn't willing to have intercourse.
@EricaP: But I presume that even as a 17 year-old, you were interested in and attracted to those cocks--or at least to the people to whom they were attached--and to the idea at least, of someday having sex with them. That doesn't seem to be the case with your relationship to these vaginas.

Besides, I always thought of a cock-tease as someone who relishes the idea that she is getting a guy all worked up, but is going to leave him high and dry, rather than someone who is just new to and/or nervous about contact with a penis. There's a maliciousness I associate with the term "tease," as opposed to the inadvertent response to a shy virgin's inaction. I always got upset when I heard boys describe a girl who was unwilling to give a hand job or a blowjob or have intercourse with a boy who'd gotten hard because they'd kissed as a "cock tease," because it seemed to me that her intention wasn't to get them hot and bothered and then give them no release. Besides, I figured, they could easily find release on their own--so why pout so about it? It wasn't as if they were going to stay unsatisfied forever.

So in light of my understanding of "cocktease" coupled with your real reluctance to touch or lick these women's vaginas, I would not consider you a "pussytease." If it gets you turned on to think of what you're doing as this, then I guess it's okay, but I'd like to exonerate you of the negative connotations associated with the "---tease" appellation.
You're sweet. I'm remembering back to those days when I was that unwilling-girl, and I felt guilty about being a cock-tease, because that was the label I thought boys used for my kind. (Not that anyone ever said that to my face; I just thought they were thinking it.) It's like the whole "blue balls" thing. And so while I don't take pleasure in getting a guy or gal worked up and then walking away, I still feel that guilt which I associate with the "tease" word. Make sense?

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