@gnot: Maybe you are confusing things with the fact that women get bored sexually far sooner than men do?

For all the married guys, I feel obliged to point out that according to science, most women don't get sexually bored of husbands they otherwise love. This NYT article summarizes the consensus percentage of bored wives as follows:

Researchers have set its prevalence among women between the ages of about 20 and 60 at between 10 and 15 percent. When you count the women who don’t quite meet the elaborate clinical threshold, the rate rises to around 30 percent.

That's a lot of women to be sure, enough to keep marriage counselors in business and send the stock of a pharmaceutical company soaring. If you're going to generalize, though, you'd have to say that the ladies are getting it up for their husbands just fine (assuming, of course, that hubby's finances are in order, and he doesn't get seriously ill).

@315 Hunter

-All you need is enthusiasm and deep interest in the pleasure of your partner and yourself.
--There's no sign she ever felt anything like that for him. She's the classic frigid good wife. She lay on the bed like a board and took it. He gave her a good home and children.

He gave her a good home and children? How do you know she wasn't working too? How do you even know he's been employed, or consistently so? In what sense did he give her children? Men do not give women children - any of us could get pregnant with an hour's notice when fertile, it's not difficult. She's the one who had them, not him. The curse of being a guy, you gotta actually convince someone else your DNA is worth something, when it's patently worse than half the male population of the planet, on average. 2-3% of the time it's not yours anyway, but women don't have to worry about that. She's been very good about meeting his sexual needs frequently - that's far more investment in making a "good home" than he's shown. If she had no sexual interest in him, and her frigidity is her fault (despite her high sex drive and normal sexual response now, which I guess must be a freak accident, perhaps she got struck by lightning?), then you can't absolve him of responsibility either - he would have known that, and he married her anyway, and then instead of doing the obvious and trying to inspire sexual response in her, he blamed her and gave up. What a champion.

There is no such thing as frigidity. You ever met a frigid guy? Our equipment is far less fragile. Frigidity is not a real thing. Even the asexual have a sexual response and orgasm just as easily as everyone else.

-Men tend to skimp on the pleasure of your partner thing.

--Arguable.

Is it really? I didn't know you'd been fucking men. Care to update us? (P.S. The gay and bi guys I've slept with have been a lot better in bed than the straight guys, so you'll have to correct for that). I'd love to see your personal stats on skill in bed of men you've had sex with vs. women you've had sex with. Craigslist BJ's don't count, men have a physiological advantage due to much bigger throats.

-Yeah, she said everything was fine until the wedding night.

She did say that. She had high hopes that the wedding night would be amazing. It was crap. She was disappointed. His bits worked so they figured hers were broken. That she was broken.

-Like so much, you're entirely making this up.

You are making him out to be a hero who suffered through years of his wife's willful, obnoxious and clearly voluntary sexlessness, the bitch, only now to refuse to give her the first decent sex in her life because she deserves it, the cow (is that right?? You've not explained his thinking on the refusal to use the vibe, learn how to get her off, etc., how all that makes him a hero). That's a far steeper mountainside the roll the boulder up, is it not?

-"We have definitely tried the vibrator together" - how exactly does one try a vibrator if it isn't in contact with ones genitals?

--There are plenty of ways to use a vibrator. She doesn't dare talk about it. But she couldn't come when he was around. Think about it.

Well that solves it!! She was sticking the vibrator in her ear! That's why she didn't orgasm! What a maroon!
I require details. How does one use a vibrator to orgasm without touching it to one's genitals? She couldn't come when he was around? Well, he's awful in bed, so that's probably why. It would throw anyone off. You ever been fucked in the ass by someone who won't give you a reacharound and also won't let you touch yourself (assuming you are not a sub who would like this anyway. Preeeetty sure you're a sub.). For 30 years?

The woman knows it takes time to learn how to come. It took her 40 years. She's not going to expect fireworks first fuck out of the gate (she sure as shit didn't get them last time). "It didn't work and now we're giving up forever" almost certainly doesn't mean she didn't come with him with the vibe the first time she tried it, because that's ridiculous. What it means is that he had a violent allergic response to the vibe and now she can never try it with him again because he's a tiny baby in the body of a grown man.

I'm assuming you share this man's technique of not caring at all about your partner's pleasure in bed and putting no effort into it. Care to let your wife write in on her feelings about that? Or your mistresses?

-As for your political statements, I'll let them speak for themselves.

That sentence is entirely meaningless, if not redundant. Please clarify your insults in the future.

P.S. 50 Shades is not popular among women as a whole. It was popular among the post-menopausal conservative suburban fans of Twilight. It's pretty much the exact same book, just different window dressing, and as rapey. I guess that's who you are looking to date though. Follow it up with some Harry Potter so you'll have something to chat over the Pinot at the country club.

P.P.S Did you watch that Louis CK bit? I'm curious.

@321 And if she was sexless and it bothered him at all, he could have divorced her before the kids came into the picture. They obviously aren't anti-birth control, so that wouldn't have been straight away. He's not religious, had no block against divorce. He stayed in, he chose that. There are men who enjoy using women like a hole in the mattress, it's their preference. We've all met far too many. Not unusual at all.

@322 Hunter - And of course, his insistence that their sex life stay exactly the same as it always has been implies he likes it that way. Dead fish sex or no. I'm guessing no, but if it is dead fish sex perhaps he's a secret necrophiliac? Who else would enjoy that....hm. Well, marrying a deeply religious virgin was a good bet if that's what he was looking for.

Jesus; I'm over these two.

You've slept with gay guys, gnot? Are you a guy? I'm confused...

Oh Sean; you poor darling.
As long as you don't get poor or sick; you'll be fine.. And now the women are getting it up?
I've only been gone a few hours..

That is an interesting tangent though. Do women get bored sooner than men?
Is it boredom, though?
What the hell is going on with women's sexuality, and why isn't it a big big issue? Obviously, something is not working culturally/ socially and it is expressing it self thru women's growing loss of sexual interest. Is it just with their husbands, or all men? No interest in sex with anyone..
I think I need an assistant, here.Help write out the questionaires.
Do not sleep in same bed as man for 30 yrs./ have seperate bedrooms. Invite each other in to share your beds. That's my suggestion for keeping a little inner glow still glowing.
Who listens to me, though?

Another fucking comedy of errors. Could someone point out to Trey @314; that the whole fucking planet, except him,NOW KNOW, this chick took the fucking vibrator to fucking bed with her fucking bloody husband, and and- I don't even - can't say it.. I'm done

@316 I have, I think it's because guys are out once they've come, physiologically. When I was a teenager I could only orgasm once and I had the same extreme shut down feeling. Contact after that because unnecessary to annoying due to boredom. I wouldn't let that stop me though if my partner needed more. Most men seem to assume that just because I've had half a dozen orgasms already that I am done when they are done. Not so. They may also desultorily play along until I let them off the hook because they are so clearly not invested. I do not tend to keep these men around though retraining is of course attempted. We are old enough that they should already have been taught better manners, so usually lack of consideration is a decision rather than ignorance. The ladies do not make this mistake.

Hunter; think Gnots got a few words for you above.
How come all these other girls see you so differently to me?
Maybe the sun is too glaring down under?
Just playing with you.. Still love you.

Gee Gnot. After half a dozen orgasms, and the guy comes- then what? You want him to make sure you get a half dozen more? That sounds a little(?) selfish.
Give these poor guys a break. And affection thru sex? You feel that?
Or is it just a combative story for you?
I do feel Hunter is very restrained after your, to me, rude attacks on him.
I did skim thru your words on child care issues in the US. Sounds frightening.
All our govt workers have maternity leave, which as I understand it, is very generous. During our last govt, they gave maternity leave to everyone. Not sure of the deal, cause, heaven be, I no longer have to think about that stuff.
The govt also gives money to families , under certain wage( again, not sure, think cut off point is pretty high). Child care is high. Again, single parents get subsidies.

50 shades, seemed to be popular with middle aged women. Women whose men probably showed them as much interest as they did the family cat.
Just expecting she do her jobs, non complainingly.. Must be a bloody lot of women like this, cause as we all know, those books sold.
Pity The Real Feminists, didn't put pen to paper and cash in on this demographic..

Hey Hunter. It's a mugs game, eh?
Attacks from the left. Attacks from the right.
Pity you live so far away. We could sit, have a wine and talk.

Oh ok. No sweet talk tonite then. All business. Fine with me.
You said; he gave her children. Just pointing out that that ain't so. He gave her sperm. The children of course, couldn't be made without his contribution.
And I salute all those who have made their effort in this way.

My favourite really, is a wee joint. Hard to organize, though. So only now and then.
Alcohol- not that fussed with. Maybe vodka. You do seem to be some lightening rod for women. You enjoy the fight, perhaps? Brave Man.

I wasn't pouting. Just playing with you.. Having a lend.
Only play I got- if you were close by, of course- things would be different.

@320 seandr: I remember reading a while back that men are more interested in a variety of partners, whereas women are more interested in a variety of sexual acts. Of course, that's one of those statements that's so broad as to be mostly useless, especially as I can't remember where I read it. But it may be what @gnot was referring to?

As to @gnot's claim that men are more likely to skimp on the pleasure of their partner: My data, at least, in no way back this up. I've slept with a number of men who were all very interested in my pleasure. Maybe you're hanging out with the wrong men?

It's a party.

Late Sunday nite here..closing down this cosmic language making. Till later.

Ms Lava - Your style of conducting a separate-residence marriage is reminiscent of the preferences of the late David Rees, who would make the short list of those who built gay publishing in the UK;. Good company.

Perhaps we can name the list of Obvious Advice that Eleventy People Have Already Provided the "Use the Vibrator Together" List - UVT for short.

***

Ms Cute - Subtracting Ms Lava, I have cast thirty-three roles.

@ciods: I assumed @gnot was referring to the myth made popular by Sex at Dawn that female sexuality is By Nature non-monogamous, but perhaps I've misunderstood.

As for making an effort to please women, I've always approached sex with the attitude that if either party isn't having fun, what's the point? That said, most of the women I encountered in my teens and 20s had little idea what they liked, or if they did they were awfully bashful about it. So, not only was it my responsibility to please them, but I also had to navigate through thickets of sexual inhibition, on my own and without a compass, in order to figure out what that might entail.

It's not a straightforward business at all, and I'm not surprised that it's beyond skill set of some men.

@ 332, that extract proves my point. I don't know why you've highlghted it at all. It doesn't say anything about him giving her any more than she has given him.

Venn, yes I've seen you round the traps getting the cast together. Impressive.
Of course, I'm interested in being part of the show.
Maybe musical director? I'd have to be allowed to bring in some recent music, though, if you approve.
Music from the war yrs, well, wouldn't be able to sex the place up, really. This is a SavageLove production, after all. Your call, of course.

Nocute - What if the only way she can come is by herself, with her vibrator?
There would be no physical reason for this. And this type of mental block is incredibly rare imo.

What if it poisons their relationship?
He has also taken that chance of poisoning their relationship. It's dangerous business to tell your partner they are broken. Even to agree with your partner that they are broken is very shady.

Just because she can't come with her husband doesn't mean she'll be able to come with someone else. I've had sex with other men that I haven't been able to come with, either.
So BIBFAULT might have to try a few guys before she finds a good match... are you saying that you could consider never having a different kind of sex than your marital sex? That could have made you happy? I think if she's honest that she's never came during sex but wants to, she'll attract the right kind of guy quickly while scaring off guys who have problems pleasing.

Nocute - Also awesome of you to share. I'm sure it will be very helpful for BIB. But I don't think that you stated anywhere, whether you still believe that leaving was the best choice.

I wonder if you are trying to imagine your life continuing with good solo sex but bad partnered sex that is not getting better. You can tell when sex is getting better, and I think she suspects sexual incompatibility because it's not getting better. Hard to imagine. When I try to imagine accepting this, I get a vaguely suicidal feeling.

Dan, and now you, seem to be telling her to "do as I say, not as I do". Dan would cheat, you did cheat, I'm not sure how one could not cheat or leave a commitment to unsatisfying sex. That's what a monogamous commitment to this guy is.

Hunter @315 - Your quibbles don't change much. I've changed what you needed, but it still spells DTPNPA.

Bib isn't as lousy in bed as her husband, she can at least hold still long enough for her partner to come while he has never managed it. He has never brought a vibrator to bed for her. The first problem she stated occurred the first time they had sex, what man could think it was the woman's fault if she wasn't turned on by what he did. He won't let her try the most reasonable ways to come in bed since he can't stay still; approaching her solo time as their sex, opening the relationship, tying him up, seeing sex workers. everyone is a person and should be treated equally regardless, which does mean everyone does have to stick up for the underdogs for a fair society. The couples I know tend to be more stay at home dad than stay at home mom. (not sure why you would quibble with someone's reported experience so I let that stand). but the one thing we are sure she has done is have the vibrator in some sort of helpful location during sex, what else would they have been doing with it in bed to make her come?

How do I know hubby can't chill out and let her do what she wants on him? Cause she never came.

Ms Lava - Now you've given me the mental image of the pop festival at the Strodes' old mansion in Paradise Postponed - it would not surprise me to see DA string out that long.

I'm sure you're quite welcome to a backstage position if that's what you prefer.

@347 Seandr
myth made popular by Sex at Dawn that female sexuality is By Nature non-monogamous
Do you mean "the reality that it will always be beneficial to cheat if uncaught"? Some animals form pair bonds, but I'm pretty sure that all find another mate after theirs dies, or cheat when their mate's away. Humans included. I also think there are good reasons why many humans restrain themselves from cheating.

It's not a straightforward business at all, and I'm not surprised that it's beyond skill set of some men.
I think the only requisite skill on men's behalf is keeping a hard on but accommodating a woman's movements as she figures out what she likes. Not too different from the minimum standards placed on women; dead fish if you can't respond well. The only type of man I can't orgasm with spends sex doing what he likes or forcefully disrupting my movements. I think that would be tough for a guy too. I would be very surprised at men who could say they have experienced the same actually. I believe it's much more rare for women to fight a guy's movements than vice versa.

I think this skill I am describing may be called 'letting the woman run the fuck'. Granted it's hard to let an inexperienced partner run the fuck, but I think that's the same for both genders. I also consider it a sex duty for both partners, to be able to hand over the reins, and the person having trouble coming should most often have the reins. I'm sure D/s disagree.

I don't think letting your partner run the fuck guarantees their orgasm. They still may be too tired or anxious to come. But I consider it due diligence.

Yeah. I wanted to talk with Sean re those words, also, Philo.
First up. Sean, not my business, to be sure. Coming though from the affection I have for you. I hear your split up of the famy tasks, and got to say, you being the Only bill coverer, , sounds like a big load to carry.
And I hear you, or think I hear you saying, that that load is crushing you, somewhat.
Your children are old enough, surely, they don't need a full time stay at home parent. If your wife isn't working- part time, whatever. Any chance she can start to help you carry this financial burden, a bit?
As I said- not my business( YesYes, hasn't stopped me before), and I don't want to upset you in any way. Just wanted to say that, out of my care for you.

Just about finished my post on this " myth" line you threw in, Sean. And this F...
iPhone froze. And I had to let it go. No problem. Obviously, need to come back to it, when I get the time.

Interesting, I didn't see my misspelling of Family @356.

#346 I agree the letter with the husband who had health problems was the most interesting, and I commented on it on post 224. But guess no one else thought it was interesting.

Dr Sean @318 -- I think you are thinking about this weak husband thing all wrong. Invalids make the best husbands because it gives a woman a chance to show how much she loves him. And they are so grateful to be cared for, and feel so loved, that they'll never want to get out of bed again. And if they try, you just break their ankles with a sledgehammer.

Hunter, Death, eh. My Teacher is taking us thru the death process, all earth and wind and fire and earth in the body , dissolving at the time of death. So one's mind is ready, prepared.

Hunter78 @ 349, I guess it just reads very differently to me if you say "he gave her a home and children" as opposed to "they gave each other" these things. If you think the latter is true that's a non-issue. But they do sound different to me.
These things do get my goat, I suppose. Today I mentioned to the silly woman who sits next to me at work that my best friend had gone away shopping for the weekend with her Mum for a wee break from her family and she said, "oh, does she have a rich husband?". No, she has a very high-paying job of her own!

@Philophile: I'm not saying monogamy is the Natural Order, either. The way I see it, arguing that humans are genetically programmed to prefer monogamy or polygamy is a bit like arguing that they're genetically programmed to be liberals or conservatives.

I think the only requisite skill on men's behalf is keeping a hard on but accommodating a woman's movements as she figures out what she likes.

Lol, there's a little more variability out there than you think. But yes, let her find her grind is good advice.

@341 Sex At Dawn takes the women need more variety than men do tack. It's a fun read, even if you aren't hot and bothered about evopsych.

@347 Women are by nature non-monogamous. So are men. Monogamy is a highly unnatural state. We are bonobos, chimps. Women are socialized to belong to one man because 1) pussy property and 2) baby ownership by dad. Hope that crap dies soon, astonished it's still around.

@347 Correct re sex skills in men. My fifteen year old first boyfriend was flawless, ruined me for other men for years until they finally more or less got over their learning curve. Every serious gf he's had since has called me to thank me, but honestly it was being treated by him like an equal that enabled me to train him up.

@347 Not to take credit for his skills at all. That was all him. I shudder to think how good he must be now. It's 99% attitude though, truly.

@355 Correct. That was my advice to male friends in high school who were trying to devirginize themselves and possibly others - just let her work it out herself, she's never played on the playground before, it's a totally new thing and she needs to figure out what she likes. Plus, a great way to build trust and demonstrate caring about her needs. And if you offer that, you'll get where you want to go a lot faster, and it'll be a lot more fun.

"I would be very surprised at men who could say they have experienced the same actually."

Poll please? Gentlemen? Horrible horrible trainwrecky sex stories where she moved around with complete disregard for your pleasure, comfort and physical safety?

@311 I orgasm without any particular effort by them, it's extremely easy for me to orgasm. I don't consider number of orgasms a factor that has any influence whatsoever on whether or not I am done with sex.

@341 Do you also fuck women?

Gnot@371. Fair enough. There is another person involved though.
And he has a choice when the sex is done, or all under your control?

Gnot, " no particular effort by them", what is that supposed to mean?
The effort, I would assume, is navigating the road tacks you seem to throw out, with that sort of attitude.

@373 Lava - Oh I know this one! Sex is over when both people answer "Fuck yeah" to the question "Was it good for you?"

Or when someone is being too annoying to continue.

Obviously Philo, you've never been married for a few decades.
In fact, even before I was married, I never heard that question or posed it.
I mean, what if he'd said, Er , No.. I would have just burst into tears.
No. I wouldn't have done that.. Guess you better email me ,
" Knowing when the sex is over "book.. So many books I gotta read.

Philo, on second thought- forget the book. When the time comes,
Im just gonna wing it..

Hey Hunter; how you doing? This arsewipe person, my children's father- just wrote our 17 yr old the shittiest letter. Shitty one to me. Shitty one to our child. That's it- any more letters, torn up before opening..
I will not let it disturb my mind. I will not let it disturb my mind. Fuck Him.

@355 Philo: Him staying hard and keeping still would be no help to me. I've never been able to come from grinding or "running the fuck" as you say. Of course, if I didn't know that, and we were trying to figure things out together, I'd appreciate his being willing to try such a thing! But it wouldn't work, for me, so I'll agree with @seandr that there's a lot more variability out there. Requisite skills to get me off include a lot more than a hard cock and patience.

@gnot, no, I don't sleep with women, so of course you're right that my personal experiences only offer info one way. But I do know a lot of women, have women friends who I talk to about sex, and talk to men about the sex they have with their women. And I think sexual selfishness is just as likely in women, from what I can tell--it just manifests differently. I guess I just am reacting to what I perceive as a general feeling that just because a women isn't getting off doesn't mean she can't be bad or selfish in bed. It's easy to see the badness in a wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am situation, where the man comes and immediately stops/leaves/etc, since it feels obviously selfish. It may be less easy to see the badness in a stereotypical woman-just-lying-there. But just because she isn't having orgasms doesn't mean she's not being inconsiderate in bed, and it certainly doesn't mean she's not also "skimping on her partner's pleasure."

Obviously I'm making general statements and people are individuals. Anyone has the capacity to be bad in bed ;)

Sorry Hunter; and my son tells me, not to tear up his letters..
That guy can still, barge into the space my children and I have created-
And just shit on it.

Don't want to leave on that note. Instead, I'm listening to Bobby Dylan singing "Forever Young".. That'll settle my mind.

And Gnot. Just not sure what it is about your stuff that unsettles me so much. I just sense pain in you. Pain and dislocation. If you want to talk with me, ever, from a softer space-

This is entirely observation without opinion.

Ms Lava - There's a market for attitudes that go much farther. Before you were with us, Mr Savage posted an advertisement (from some New York source) for a roommate from a straight male creature seeking a chaser. The paragon who placed the advertisement was prepared to permit the lucky applicant he accepted the incredible privileges of cooking for him, cleaning for him, hanging out with him when he hadn't anything better to do, and performing, shall we say, dairy services when no milkmaid happened to be available - provided, of course, that the fortunate winner didn't make such unreasonable demands as being acknowledged as an acquaintance in public. Mr Savage posted the advertisement because what struck him as most remarkable about it was that, going by his mail alone, he could predict hundreds if not thousands of applicants for the position.

. Midnight Ramblers are out..

Clarifying - when I began 381, 375 was the last post up.

Well done, Ms Lava on being able to settle your mind.

Oh Venn.. Don't you realize I just don't know what you want me to make of that post. Kind of you, though. Attitudes that go further than what?

Now I'm listening to my slow dancing with Hunter song; nice images come now.

@386 Wolves are monogamous in the sense that only one pair is allowed to breed. The alpha male and female reproduce (with each other) and the other members of the pack don't get to mate or have pups at all. So, yeah, monogamy for some, but it's not like the rest of the wolves are all happily paired up.

Come dance with me, Hunter..

Hunter - Bonobos are matriarchal.

@379 Ciods - Him staying hard and keeping still would be no help to me. I've never been able to come from grinding or "running the fuck" as you say. Of course, if I didn't know that, and we were trying to figure things out together, I'd appreciate his being willing to try such a thing! But it wouldn't work, for me, so I'll agree with @seandr that there's a lot more variability out there. Requisite skills to get me off include a lot more than a hard cock and patience.
Appreciate his being willing? To do what you consider standard sex for yourself? Odd phrasing..

I think if it turns out you needed more than your partner to come, it means you were always kinky (and don't kinky people always know it somewhere inside, like orientation?) or not that into your partner. And obviously you need to feel free to discover and practice what you like to do. Especially not limit sex to porn or cultural cliches which typically favor male pleasure.

Plus if you can get yourself off, I see no reason, besides anxiety, that you could not get yourself off around/on/while making out with your partner.

I'd like to hear from you and Seandr about what makes a good lover. The skill I listed is fundamental because it is impossible for a body to get off in a chosen way; people figure out how to get their bodies off. People don't choose what they like. Here's my off the cuff list for a good lover:
-have an idea of how your partner's anatomy works
-believe sex can be good for your partner
-trust that your partner wants you to have fun
-read signals of attraction and happiness
-read signals of discomfort and frustration
-squelch macho or romantic or other unrealistic idealized scared bullshit that can get in the way of having fun together.
I don't expect men to have any of these skills anymore, but handing over the reins to one who hasn't orgasmed seems like basic courtesy. As well as checking to see if your partner liked it enough to do again.

@376 Lava - Are you implying I don't get around? Meant as a compliment or insult? And did you really say you'd prefer not to know if you sucked in bed? I mean, the bad kind?

Hunter, you'd have to dance with me, first. Then, we could play.

Ms Lava - You mentioned Ms Gnot's attitude in 374; by the time my post went up, multiple other posts had gotten in the way.

@391 Philo: I appreciate a willingness to try things, across the board. I don't think of the man being perfectly still as standard (nor do I think of it as highly strange). That's all I meant by saying I'd appreciate his being willing to try it if we thought it might help me get off.

I don't think needing more than your partner to come has anything to do with being kinky. For me it's purely anatomical. For the first fifteen years of my sex life (which was active and multi-partnered) I needed a vibrator to come. No amount of grinding/running-the-fuck/oral/other attention was going to do it. (I couldn't masturbate to orgasm without a vibe either.) I don't think that makes me kinky (although other things may). I think it just means that's how my clit works. She's a tricky bitch. In my early 30s I started a relationship with my current partner, and after about a year into that relationship he found a way to make me come, so now I can come with a partner and without a vibe, although still not from PIV. By copying him I can now masturbate without a vibe, also. But it still remains unpredictable and fairly complicated, and although I really enjoy cock, cock itself doesn't make me come. That's what I mean by needing more requisite skills than a hard cock.

I should say I greatly enjoyed a lot of the sex I had before my current partner; that I orgasmed with partners by bringing the vibe to bed with us, and that in almost all cases this was welcomed and not seen as threatening. So I'm not saying I needed a lot more to have a good time! Just that sometimes learning to orgasm isn't quite so straight-forward.

I really like your list of what it takes to be a good lover. I agree with it all. I might add two things, which are maybe cliche but I think critical: a sense of humor (possibly manifesting as a willingness not to take everything personally) and an open mind. For the first, e.g. if a cock goes soft it doesn't me "he's not really attracted to me" (nor should it mean the end of the fun). If either partner didn't come on any particular occasion it doesn't mean they didn't have fun. For the second, be willing to try stuff, and try to let go of as much cultural bullshit about what's normal and what's not as you can.

@gnot: We're bonobos, chimps

Look, if you're a bonobo or a chimp, more power to you (please update us on your spirit monkey if/when you decide to have kids). And I'll credit Sex at Dawn for attempting to knock monogamy off its pedestal as the accepted Natural Order. And for inspiring sexy fantasies.

But there is nothing unnatural about competing human drives for property, technology, security, shelter, food, fucking, novelty, predictability, reproduction, paternal certainty, paternal protection, child rearing, social norms, social evolution, justice, reciprocity, jealousy, spirituality, companionship, personal space, warmth, morality, social status, and dozens of other instinctive wants/needs, the combination of which enables some (most, really) people of a certain temperament to eventually fall in love and be sufficiently satisfied with one partner at a time for decades of their adult life.

@Hunter:Well, most mammals have dominant males, who get to fuck anyone in the herd.

This would explain why I've had harem fantasies since I was 11 years old. Now we're getting to the true Natural Order of things. Hope all this egalitarian crap dies soon, astonished it's still around.

@LavaGirl: that load is crushing you, somewhat

No, the load isn't crushing me. I should add that my wife has a great job that she loves and works part time, and she'll probably ramp it up to a full time 6-figure gig once the kids are out of the house and she needs things to keep her busy. That's still a small fraction of our current combined income, but it's pretty comfortable as a safety net.

The letter just touched on things I worry about, being the overly sensitive baby that I am. For example, I had knee surgery a few years ago, and it was really difficult to spend a couple of months weakened, hobbling around, and wondering if I'd ever again feel like the strong, capable, protective patriarch that my wife and kids love and depend on, and worrying that there really aren't any other good alternative rolls for me to play. Add onto that the possibility that my wife by no choice of her own might lose interest in fucking a gimpy seandr, and well, that just paints a rather brutal picture.

ciods @394
>> if a cock goes soft it doesn't mean "he's not really attracted to me" (nor should it mean the end of the fun). >>

Yes, thank you! All that talk about what a man needs to bring is a hard cock that stays hard... I believe that in the future, people will realize how backward it is to rely on the male erection as a barometer of the quality of sex.

seandr @397, I think it's great if you pick the strong, capable, protective patriarch role, and if your family loves you in that role. But there are other roles out there. Could you maybe make yourself vulnerable enough to have that conversation with your wife?

>> I know this is silly since we're still in the prime of life, but I have some anxiety about, well, aging, and I was wondering if we could talk about what we love and desire in each other that will endure even as we age. >>

@ciods: I'll agree with @seandr that there's a lot more variability out there.

Just to toss in another data point, during our third time together my college sweety had her first piv orgasm ever when on a whim I decided to hold her down and give her a good, hard, bootie-clapping, titty-jiggling fuck.

@377 I'm bi, like you said you were when you contended that men are equally as good in bed as women. You need to have fucked both genders to be able to make a comparison in sexual attitudes and skill level between the two.

@386 Because the male animals beat the crap out the the female animal if she tries to leave the herd. Pussy property. Baby ownership by dad. Plus killing the step kids upon takeover (we do that too, btw. Far more likely to be abused by a step parent male or female). Luckily, they gotta sleep sometime.

There are plenty of cultures with alternatives to monogamy. Primitive cultures were highly varied. It's a pity we became so monolithic in Europe in the way that we did.

@373 Of course. What I appreciate is the offer to continue though. For it not to be made is irritating and poor manners. I also will gladly continue, it is my default to continue, if I am done and he is not. I also don't assume male orgasm the end of sex for the guy - for plenty of guys it is not (see @398's point).

@374 Orgasms every 30 seconds or so from PIV with no direct clitoral contact, as an example. Sometimes it is just one continuous rolling orgasm that lasts the entire time. My body making it up to me for not orgasming until I was 25 I think. Of course, PIV is not necessary, it's even easier to get off from hands or mouth or just grinding on whatever.

@395 Thank you for the compliment. I don't think it was Sex at Dawn that did it, more the biology/neurosci undergrad. There is little to nothing that is monogamous out there (some bugs where their genitals snap off after intercourse inside their partner to prevent sperm competition, fish that die immediately after spawning, and some birds although genetic testing shows that that's actually not really true). There is little to nothing that isn't homosexual out there either (again, the fish that die, though arguably you could say as they are just casting gilt around they are having sex with every male in the river, the bugs again because of precision retooling issues, that's all I can come up with). Even most animals in which males are traditionally combative demonstrate long term male friendships. We are not exempt from behaving like animals just because we made up some fancy words about it.

Competing human drives = competing animal drives

People make the decision to be more or less satisfied with one person. We do this with friends too. I imagine there are just as many people out there who have lifelong friends as lifelong mates, possibly more. We just happen to overlap the two. Plenty of other long lived social animals do the same.

@375 Thank you, yes. That is all I was trying to say.

@Philophile: I'd like to hear from you and Seandr about what makes a good lover.

I certainly wouldn't presume to answer this question for everyone. Part of it is chemistry - the same performance that brings tears of orgasmic joy to one woman might elicit yawns and watch-checking from the next.

squelch macho or romantic or other unrealistic idealized scared bullshit that can get in the way of having fun together.

I think this is how a lot of guys go wrong. They believe they are expected to know what they are doing, and they are worried about being humiliated (perhaps rightly) if they confess they have no idea. So they just start doing what they think they're supposed to do, maybe what they saw on porn or something a buddy told them. Meanwhile, the woman might have no idea either so she just goes with the flow, or lack of flow as the case may be.

I got off to a good start with my first girlfriend (sexually, she was otherwise sort of a horrible person). For whatever reason, it seemed more humiliating to me to pretend I knew what I was doing and fail than to just ask her, more or less, for some guidance, which she would bashfully give. She then gave me lots (and I mean lots) of opportunity to practice. Much of my junior year was lost in her pussy.

I've gotten pretty good mileage with the techniques (?) I learned from her. I had a really good streak after we broke up where if I could just get my hand down a girl's pants during a make out session, I could give her a really nice surprise. By the time I graduated from college, I believed that given enough time, I could make any woman come. I've only had one serious test of that belief from a woman convinced she was inorgasmic, and I prevailed after 2 months. One of my life's proudest moments.

But enough of my boasting.

And you still graduated, Sean, busy as you were with other activities?
That's what I call a Man. Thanks Sean, it's nice to have a laugh over morning coffee.

Go forth and procreate, that's what I say. Oh no, opened at the wrong page.
Wait.....

@386 Any cultural anthropologists want to knock this silliness down?

Birds are not monogamous. Wolves are not monogamous. Some pair bond, but that is temporary, usually not for life, and definitely not sexually exclusive. Same with humans.

Jesus. Think it's even the wrong book.

@397 The idea that your wife wouldn't want to be with you if you are gimpy is not a sane thought, I hope you know. The idea that your kids will lose respect for you when you get old and rickety and sickly is also nuts. CBT that shit. My guess is that they could not care less, and that what those thoughts attack is your personal image of yourself, nothing to do with them (unless of course they are shallow crapheads who don't actually love you at all and never have). Yes, you will get old, and you will shrink and lose muscle and hair and probably go at least a little insane. We all do. Women learn that earlier from the fertility cut out, perhaps guys can cling to the illusion longer? Let it go.
Also, if you are pulling down the half mill or more you say you are, and aren't a complete idiot with money, I doubt your kids will ever have to scramble to earn money for themselves and will be able to rely on you as a financial provider to them for life, as will their children, if that's what you are stressed about. If you are a fool with money, stop it, keep rolling in the millions, and relax.
You might want to do a review of how much of a trap self image based on societal conventions rather than actual self is. It is a deeply uncomfortable way to live for pretty much everyone. Advise ditching it.
Finally, if your wife is able to pull down 6 figures working full time, she is not financially reliant on you at all and neither as a result are your children. That thought is an illusion.

Lava, I've got the headcold of doom, I'm trapped in my apartment by the weather and the plague, the baby in the next apartment over is also sick so I'm not sleeping, so yes, my mood is less than stellar and probably posting excessively on the internet at 4 am isn't helping but it's either that or invent a device to suck my sinuses out of my skull and wring them out. What I'd give for a sinus sucker.

@gnot: Pussy property. Baby ownership by dad.

I don't think it's especially hard to find guys willing to fuck you without staking any claim on your pussy or any offspring that come out of it. The thing is that a lot women seem to stake a claim on a man's time and resources once they start fucking him, and they don't seem especially eager to share that claim with other women.

Also, if women are so inherently poly, why are lesbians so much more monogamous than gay men?

Primitive cultures were highly varied.

I have no doubt that a hypothetical survey of prehistoric cultures would uncover all sorts of arrangements, and with smaller bands of people who are highly dependent on each other for everything, you'd be more likely to find instances of sharing of everything - food, child-rearing, protection, and sex.

It's a pity we became so monolithic in Europe in the way that we did

I feel rather privileged not to be chasing game all day to feed a group of women beleaguered with pregnancy for most of their short adult lives. Sometimes I suspect that Eden story was completely made up.

I know you've suddenly taken to wearing The Robe , Gnot. Truth is, Sean May Not get old. God Givith and God Taketh Away.. Just noticed that line. Some other choice, in the moment quotes if you all feeling open.
Nah. Not enough info on the mating habits of glow worms , in that book. Trying to keep up Gnot.

Come on guys. Monday over there, you got a Huge country counting on your efforts.
Butt no, here you sit, chat, chat , chatting away.
Even the iPhone is cracking jokes!
I meant But no.

@410 Look Hunter, I know you like to jerk off to these threads, but I am not taking requests.

Oh Hunter, you pose such complex questions.
Just a chick from Queensland, Australia. Tick that box for me.

Oh Gnot, bet you get a little aroused yourself, eh? No. Not a smidgen?
Of course- with such an encyclopaedic mind like yours, lined up at your door.
Oh, I'm bored. And Hunter, you just distract me. I really have to do things.

Not to mention, Gnot. Your goddamm Heart of Gold.

@414 sean In my personal experience I've found men far more threatened by non-monogamy than women. Of course, I've never been in a sexually monogamous relationship, though I have had socially monogamous ones (pair bonded, not sexually exclusive), so perhaps I'm not out trying to have sex with traditionally minded straight girls interviewing for a father for their children as you have and that's the piece that is missing. As a woman, it's not hard to find other women to fuck you without Significant Relationship Expectations either. I've also never accepted "resources" from a man as I find the idea repellent.
If men in long term serious relationships don't expect any of the woman's time, it's news to me.
I do not know any sexually monogamous lesbians. I do know socially monogamous lesbians. There is something to be said for not conforming to conservative social mores - it lets you have the relationship model you'd actually like to have. Perhaps the bright move would have been to discuss this with these women you were dating who were so needy and clingy before you fucked them, to make sure they were fine with you needing an extensive amount of time to yourself. And negotiated sexual non-monogamy as well if that's what you wanted. Still an option open to you with the wife, btw.
Hypothetical? There are still plenty of prehistoric cultures out there.
You wouldn't be chasing game all day. Typically 90%+ of all calories in hunter gather societies were/are plant matter, usually collected by women and children. Meat was an occasional luxury, hunting wasn't constant, men generally just hung out. And hunters seem to enjoy hunting, it's recreation here. People were not spearing bison on foot in the bad old days, that would be stupid before Blue Cross Blue Shield. You ate the leavings of wolves, trapped the small things, and occasionally chucked a spear with an atl-atl at something big trapped in a canyon in order to impress the other guys or just ran it off a cliff. In the US, most of the protein on the east coast US was fish or the marsh hen (now extinct), the occasional deer as a test of skill but that was by arrow or sling, and largely ambush hunting - e.g. hang out with your buddies all day until something good shows up. A nice change from chicken. No one was depending on you to keep them alive with the meat you provided (Possible exception - the Inuit. Are you Inuit?). It was just to improve nutrition, plus it's tasty and the skins were handy.
Women also weren't pregnant all the time, as nursing was protracted well into toddlerhood. The number of pregnancies would not approach that of the Duggars for instance. Effective abortificants as well as somewhat effective fertility reducing drugs were widely available and still are in primitive societies. We lost that edge along the way apparently.

@396 Agreed. My fantasies too. Let's see some harems up in here. A woman with ten men, would do my heart good to see it (never really understood how the one man many women ones would work, unless the women were more interested in each other than the guy). Hunter is already living the dream of course.

Lava
@420
Rarely. Not on this one.

I don't have them lining up out the door. They are on call only at the moment, to deliver soup and then get the hell out.

@421
And thanks, though I've done nothing to deserve such high praise on this thread. I've been a pissy bitch straight through. You are far too generous.

@EricaP, @gnot: Thanks for the comments, I suspect a lot of these and other worries are a sort of barometer of other factors in my relationship. We have a lot going on, so it's easy for wife and I to drift apart into our separate lives, during which times it's easy for me to start wondering what, exactly, is the nature of our relationship.

This was all recently expressed to her, with favorable results.

@gnot: The most difficult part of being injured was seeing how it affected my kids. It stressed them out to see this active, physical man who they assumed could protect them from anything suddenly diminished by a janky knee. It's tough telling your kids that no, you can't play the wrestling game or kick the soccer ball around, two activities that you are famous for, and telling them "I hope so" when they ask if you'd ever be able to do those things again.

You're right, though, they still love you just as much, and they can even step up and do a little nurturing of their own.

@414 The other option was to fuck only busy women. If they are working 80 hour weeks, you'll get your private time, and they'll be annoyed at you for wanting to hang out too much. Recommend scientists, doctors, lawyers and computer programmers. Extra points for introversion in the programmer category as you must know. Ditto scientists usually.

@425 Your kids will grow up. They won't be 5 forever. They obviously will not have the same attitudes and ignorance at 30 as they do now. In fact, it's probably pretty healthy for them to see you as a human being rather than some sort of monolithic impossible ideal, if only because it will allow them to forgive themselves for not living up to your excessively high personal standards and becoming singularly immune to normal human life.

And of course your marriage and relationship with your wife takes the back burner when your kids are small. You are both working two full time jobs, effectively. It's the relationship with a woman you wanted when you were young - the occasional fuck, no conversation. You'll meet your wife again when the kids hit the teen years and refuse to speak to you until their early 20's. Something to look forward to.

@425 Or, given the income, you could just hire her a full time assistant/nanny. The couples I've known with small children that have full 24-7 time childcare help available seem to be pretty happy with it, though admittedly it's usually family playing this role. Also great to take on vacation with you.

@gnot: For the record
- my knee is fully recovered
- my kids are now 10 and 13
- the oldest can babysit
- neither of them have any illusions about me being an impossible ideal, although both still think I'm "cool"
- a nanny covers all the hours my wife doesn't want to cover herself
- a team of house cleaners rampages through our house every Friday (and misplaces all of my shit)
- I personally prefer my fucks with conversation

@428 Find me a bi girl who isn't a feminist.

@428 If you are going to attempt to insult me, please be specific. I have not studied up on the various personality flaws you perceive other commenters to have.

@430 Welp, yep, you are past the intense baby phase for sure. You're in a pretty sweet spot agewise right now, as the 13 year old does not yet hate you. If she's got scads of free time and doesn't want to spend them with you then I don't know what to say.

You had said earlier that women are typically clingy and want men's "resources" whatever that may mean. I'm glad you clearly did not marry such a troll and can actually converse with her rather than feel put upon that she wants your time.

@gnot: You had said earlier that women are typically clingy

You must be confusing me with someone else.

"The thing is that a lot women seem to stake a claim on a man's time and resources once they start fucking him, and they don't seem especially eager to share that claim with other women."

=clingy and needy too. Also jealous and possessive apparently. True, you did say "a lot of women" and not "women" so you do get credit for that, my bad.