Columns Apr 8, 2015 at 4:00 am

Kinky Boys


Gddss136: There are lots of resources and lots of narratives that would appeal to you out there. Interestingly, while stories of female submission to men might strike a chord with a largely female readership, stories of female domination are more likely to appeal to a male readership. And believe me, femdom porn is out there. I'm not sure if you've really searched for it or you're just projecting based on the popularity of 50 Shades. It's true that you're unlikely to find the kind of stories that appeal to you on the best seller's table at Barnes and Noble, but be assured they're out there--as are the men who are interested in those kind of fantasies. Maybe you just need to focus more in your search.

Actually, if you go on a website like FetLife you should have little problem finding men who want to submit to you. If you go on a site like OkCupid, you may also find men interested in submitting to you. I'm not a domme, but rather more subby, but when I first joined OkCupid, I got messages from a metric fuckton of younger, very cute men begging me to let them be my sex-and-domestic chore-slave. (I am not interested in that power dynamic, so I politely refused the offers, but the disgusting state of my kitchen floor almost made me take them up on it!)

Should you be any good at dominating men, and be relatively attractive, you may even find a way to turn your erotic interest into a financially beneficial enterprise, if that appeals to you.
@103: Thanks!
@ 97 - And if it's not a common fetish, I imagine it's precisely because of the overavailability of said soiled boxers, which might just numb any fetichist's desire for them.
Cynara From the likes of it, seems like it's you who hasn't read 50 shades of PREY. Let me tell you something girl. Those books are NOT about BDSM. They are about glamorized emotional, physical, and sexual violence. In reality, women in those relationships end up in women's shelters at best, and dead at worst. Christian Grey is 15 when introduced to BDSM. Which means he was RAPED. Rape is evil and is perpetrated by sick evil people. His need for bdsm comes from a desire to avenge what happened to him. He consequently RAPES Ana, but because she "enjoyed" the sex, the author make it ok. She clearly said NO to him before the act, but he disregarded her wishes. Let's call a spade a spade. Christian rapes, threatens, stalks, manipulates, lies, controls, and disrespects Ana's wishes. She is a virgin, he's a seasoned predator. She has a complete lack of knowledge about her body and sexuality. Ana does not even know what a orgasm is. She does NOT enjoy the bdsm but agrees to it because she loves Christian. Ana tells Christian she feels abused during the sessions, but Christian tells her to deal with it. I would NEVER want anyone to feel abused by me. There is a HUGE power imbalance between the 2 of which he takes advantage of every step of the way. He does not give a crap about her feelings or well being.
Most of the bdsm community agrees what is portrayed in those books is violence and abuse, not mutually enjoyable sex acts. Christian is an awful dom and a horrible human being. A more befitting title of the books would be 50 Shades of Prey.
I feel sorry for you that you cannot recognize the cruel abuse and violence portrayed in the books. Maybe you can educate yourself here:……
@ 109 - And unfortunately for society in general and women in particular, about 50 million of them bought and loved those books.

That is mightily fucked up.
Sorry, I meant @ 108
Haven't read the books Gddss, I did try. It was such sad and bad writing I couldn't continue.
The movie, I enjoyed that.
So CMD, one can makes slaves of men and demand they pay for it as well?
Looking sweeter and sweeter.
Maybe Venn, we could all chip in and offer to send Dan to a English class?
He gets into much trouble re his word/ grammar choices.
I could go along as well. All the illiterates need some training up.
CMD, Interesting suggestions!
Mr. Ven: You know, despite all the "lay/lie" stuff one hears, I almost never see that confusion in student writing and so have not really formulated a theory yet. I'll think on it . . .
Ms Lava - One might as well hope that Mr Collins would see any benefit in alteration as Mr Savage. Well, not quite; Mr S isn't that bad.

I mentioned it partly because of the mild joke attached to the meaning and partly because I used to hear that error mostly from the sort of person who said such things as, "he don't", only it seems to be spreading out. But I don't trust my own instincts here; I also used to put into that category people who pronounced "aunt" to rhyme with "rant" instead of "want".

You can hardly object to grammar markers; think of Lucy Steele and Mrs Elton, among others (I spare the assembled company a reference to the Mapp and Lucia series). I'd be quite grateful to learn of any peculiarly Australian errors and what they indicate.
Mr. Ven, I pronounce "aunt" to rhyme with "rant." I was listening to a lecture by English historian and linguist Anne Curzan, in which she said that the original pronunciation of "ask" was . . . "axe." Yes, that most vilified class marker turns out to be the original pronunciation.
Not sure what point I'm making here, though it's a pity that ankylosaur isn't still around to chime in.
Venn, no I don't object. I just notice Dan cops it at different times and I know I have.
Just having a play with you Venn.
Americans have changed the spelling of many words and Australians, many of them , happy to follow.
Caveat Scortator

Awesome! I'm making bumperstickers.
@116: Re: "aunt" pronunciation. I rhyme it with "ant" and as a youngster thought Americans who didn't sounded awfully pretentious, like they were trying to be Brits. But then, I was raised west of the Mississippi. Later on I decided it was just regional. If I can ask, where are you from originally?
@33: Completely disagree. You should bust out the I-can't-live-without-this-and-this kinks ASAP.

Even *very* GGG people (btw, I'm definitely not GGG and never said I was, so before anyone calls me a hypocrite and the like, just know that I exclude myself from this category) have their limits, and there are some kinks that they flat will not indulge, for whatever reason. Everyone is allowed that. should be able to know right off the bat what type of person you're dating. Because if you (kinkster) know for a fact that you cannot live without having this kink fulfilled, and you (GGG) know for a fact that the kink is not something you will ever be able to help them with, then you shouldn't waste each other's time.
Ms Ods - Except for a couple of years in Pennsylvania at preschool age, I've never lived outside of New England. It seems we've had opposite sides of the same idea, though it appears from something I read some years back that NE is pretty much alone on this one.
@108: Dan says "it's an advice column, not binding arbitration". Similarly, 50 Shades is fiction, not The Ultimate Guide to Sex Practices.

@111: It's not likely to win the Pulitzer Prize, or even the Pullet Surprise. But I didn't think it was any worse than the other pop culture drivel out there, particularly Nicholas Sparks' "Poor Dead Martyred Lovers" genre, which I can't stomach at all.
Lava, Gddss136 and all other women out there:
There lots of men who appreciate intelligent, secured women who are not shy to take the initiative.
Bdsm is only one aspect of it.
Oh, and @108, I don't think reading a couple of random bloggers is enough to educate me.  Probably I need to be sent to a feminist reeducation camp where I can learn to accept the fact that all penetration is rape.

Problem is, when I meet some cray-cray Feminismist* spouting that shit, I just want to beat them to death with a giant dildo.  So that's not gonna end well.

*I propose the use of Feminismist, similar to the use of Islamist or Christianist, for those who use their religion as a weapon to hit others over the head.  (Does that make me a Dildoist?)
CMD, I'm not secured.
Not tied down by nothing.
Really? Oh CMD, I'm of the 70s baby, initiative was us girls middle name.
Still wasted my time on way too many ignorant men. Yet, my choices, my mistakes.
But you know, thanks. I do appreciate being told in my early 60s, that it's ok to take the initiative. Mind you, not too many available men around my age I'd fancy taking the initiative with, but good to know I still can.
Cynara,@123; wouldn't go near his Books, either.
I did try to read 50 shades. I felt, hey, all these women can't be wrong. I'm fine reading a bit of chick lit, between my Freud biographies, or Kandinsky Art books. But I seriously couldn't read past first few pages. The writing was terrible.
And I wanted to. Like a good romance. Like a good fantasy, where a woman can really change a man, and make him almost recognisable as a loving, giving, look after the baby, human.

And before I cop the ire of MrE, or others,
I'm just being a smart arse. I know there are plenty men around who are decent people. I've even met a few.
@125: The word for the extremist "feminists" is already out there: RadFems.

And CMD, Nocute: No offense to dominatrixes but WTF is with the suggestions that Gddss136 monetise her kinks by going into sex work? I've never seen anyone advise dominant men that they should do this, or vanilla men or women who like to suck cock. Advising Gddss136 that she could turn to professional domination to pay for her equipment implies that she can't afford it as just a hobby. That smacks of disrespect. Gddss, you go ahead and stick with your day job and enjoy kinky sex on the side with your partners of choice.
@Lava: De gustibus non est disputandum, well, except on the Internet of course.
@122 Ven: As I suspected. I've been living in New England now for about eight years and so I've gotten used to hearing "aunt" your way, and it no longer strikes me as pretentious. (Although I still think it's hilarious when New Englanders say "Ne-vah-da" or "Ore-gohn," to rhyme with "gone.") But I can easily imagine that the reverse ("aunt" like "ant") would sound jarring to you, or even ignorant. Regionalisms are weird. I lived in West Virginia for a couple years, and could never get past their tendency to make past constructions with "done," i.e. "He done went there." I know regional dialects often have their own internally consistent grammatical structures, but sometimes even when you know that you just can't help hearing it as awful. (Not that pronunciations and grammar are the same issue, but it's all wrapped up in "interesting variations" in my head.) Of course, the Appalachians are very insular--as is, in my experience, New England, although possibly for different reasons--and therefore more likely to hang on to regional differences.
Cynara@130, I have no idea what you just said.
But the words are pretty.
Ms Cute - I could make a variety of points about original pronunciations.

As your origins appear to be from the wild West, it probably wouldn't seem striking in you. In a longtime resident of, say, Cabot Cove, Maine, it would smack of anti-intellectualism or reverse snobbery. (I've always thought it was an error of Messrs Link and Levinson to give the rant pronunciation to Jessica Fletcher.)

While we're on the subject, lately I've heard a number of British actors (both M and F) who, when doing American accents, have pronounced father to rhyme with blather rather than bother. Do you have any idea what that's about?
@108: Yes, 50 Shades portrays abuse and rape. Many people fantasize about abuse and rape. That's not necessarily a social ill, it's a testament to a mentally healthy person's ability to compartmentalize their sexual fantasies.

Honestly, I got more wrong ideas about relationships from Disney movies than I ever did from any erotica or porn. Because Disney movies hit me when I was an impressionable child incapable of distinguishing fantasy from reality. I can look at "Story of O" and understand that it's just a fantasy, not a model for how to run a relationship.
Ms Ods - Coincidence isn't causation, of course. I just like to collect these little things; never knowing when they might come in useful. I've long wanted to write a mystery which would hinge on such a point.
Nice post, Gui@136.
@BiDanFan: I guess it was inappropriate for me to suggest to Gddss136 that she make money from dominatrixing, since she hadn't mentioned an interest in doing that. I was just trying to point out how much in demand a good female dom is. It seems as if in her experience or expectations it's all man=Dom, woman=sub, all the time, and I was trying to tell her just how often the reverse is prized. I guess I got overzealous.

Gddss136, I apologize if I offended you.
@42@40 Eud - It's not a bad idea; if you've limited yourself to one subculture for a while and haven't found anyone, try dating people you wouldn't previously have considered.
I disagree in this case since it's a kink, not a book club. If you're monogamous, having compatible sexual interests is far more important than other shared interests.

@135/Venn - Re: father/blather: It's hypercorrection.
Here's the letter from the kinkster who wants to broaden his dating pool, reproduced in its entirety:
"I'm a straight male kinkster who used to do live performances as a rope bondage top, but I recently jumped out of the kink community. I just think I'll have better luck finding a long-term relationship with a girl from the vanilla world. So long as she's GGG, I can live with it. As much as I loved the sex/kink with people I met in "the scene," I never found anything/anyone for the "long term." My question: I'm unsure of how much I should share about my past. Should I tell vanilla girls that I performed at bondage shows? I don't want to scare them off, but I also don't want it to come up years down the road and have it scare them off then."

He doesn't seem to be worried that he can't find a woman he'll be sexually compatible with from the vanilla world, provided she's GGG; he's just wondering if he needs to disclose his performance-past. It's more analogous to a former sex worker or stripper who's totally left the business wondering when or whether to disclose to any new boyfriend that she once used to do sex work or strip.

I don't think he'll have too much difficulty finding a mostly-vanilla ggg woman who will appreciate his skills with rope tying and topping, as long as they aren't too extreme or need to happen all the time. I for one would love to meet such a man. (I'm not suggesting he call me; I'm just saying I am not part of the kink community and don't tend to hang out with people who do "live performances as . . . rope bondage top[s]," so even though I really enjoy bit of kink, I guess I could be characterized as a mostly/nearly vanilla girl who's very ggg.) Furthermore, I understand his point perfectly: I'd much rather date from highly ggg community than the kink community. For one thing, it's larger, so the pool of potential partners is much greater, with more diversity. Maybe he's familiar with all the kinksters in his geographic area and wants to diversify or branch out or simply have a larger pool from which to draw, or maybe he's found some common attribute amongst the kinky women in his kink community that he feels incompatible with for the long-term or for a relationship that encompasses more than just sex.

If he is with someone for "years" and she's had a chance to get to know him, there's little chance that the knowledge that he was once a performing rope bondage top would "scare them off" if it comes out "years down the road." More likely what would be disturbing at that point would be the fact that he'd kept a secret--leading the gf/wifef to wonder what else she didn't know. But I don't think he needs to disclose this too early, unless he and his gf will be socializing with people who know him as a kinkster/rope-tying performer, and are likely to bring up a story that makes a reference to this, in which case he should disclose earlier.

I would advise that he have vanilla sex for the first several times with a new gf, then if she seems amenable, incorporate a little light rope bondage. I'd suggest he keep bringing it into the sexual mix but not feature it exclusively, and wait until she makes some comment on his expertise with ropes, at which point he can tell her that actually, he used to really do this a lot . . . in fact, . . . .
Or even if she doesn't compliment him on his bondage skills, after enough time for her to see that he is good with ropes and likes to use them and also to know that he is essentially the kind of non-threatening "ordinary guy" she wants to be with, who fits into her world easily, in other words, that he is still the man knows him to be, he can tell her that he used to be really into that bondage thing, and that . . . .

How much time this spans varies from couple to couple, but I imagine it would happen within the first 3-4 months, perhaps sooner if things are moving quickly.
@133,134: de gustibus… Wikipedia says: " "In matters of taste, there can be no disputes" …The implication is that everyone's personal preferences are merely subjective opinions that cannot be right or wrong, so they should never be argued about as if they were. "

Hunt, I'm not really into bondage either, but tied to the bedposts occasionally is cool! The avatar is just a skein of plain old vintage rope. I just like the "Twisted Poly" label.
Glad to hear NoCute and EricaP are having fun with new boys - bad or otherwise.

I have to say I'm in favor of sharing things like known kinks, STDs, etc. sooner rather than later. By sooner, I mean before you get naked with someone, rather than before you say "I love you." I recognize that different people start getting naked at different stages of ?dating ?a relationship. I guess what I'd like best would be some way for both parties to figure out how to have that conversation before one or both is so emotionally engaged that they take risks or settle for a situation that pushes their internal boundaries too far.
@ marcelina 121 (and 33 and the others on this topic)... I think its reasonable that someone should disclose their needs at the first opportunity (or close). However, for some couples this opportunity might come on the first date, others not until the 10th month. So i think i agree more with Eud on this one. Marcelina, you seem to be very adept at setting your boundaries. That isn't an insult. Its not a bad thing. But other people don't have such set in stone boundaries... and perhaps i start dating a woman, and she isn't all that experienced in the kink realm... and we have established no intimacy yet... we are in a gray area. I could disclose too soon and she could rightly assume that the kink i disclosed is what defines me.... but maybe she just hasnt THOUGHT about that kink until i brought it up. Without the intimacy to allay her fears.... she likely turns tail and runs. But if i wait until she trusts me on other levels, maybe its not so overwhelming. I guess i am saying: I don't think you are wasting each other's time if one person doesn't immediately lay their cards on the table. If someone i was on a date with started telling me all their boundaries on our first or second date, i would assume they are a self-righteous pain in the ass. And disclosure isnt just about kinks. There are many women who struggle with infertility...and don't know WHEN they should disclose it... I don't think those women are under any obligation to disclose on a first date...for all they know, the guy has zero interest in fatherhood. When the topic comes up, it should be discussed.... whenever that day comes. First date or 10th month. (infertility is just an example of something potentially huge and potentially not -hell, it could even be a huge bonus to the right guy... so i apologize if that example offends anyone, i know it can be a very personal topic)

(fyi- i use myself as an example for ease of explanation... my own kinks are rather garden-variety.... and nothing that my partner could be shocked by, but lw1...who knows what she will think)

Cynara... twisted poly... classic.
I should've said " I don't think those women are under any obligation to disclose before getting naked" in my last post... as opposed to " I don't think those women are under any obligation to disclose on a first date"... as that is more in line with what i meant
"Bi Married Father" sucks 15 dicks a day to pay the bills... Should he tell his wife??!!?? GASP!

Hmmmm, the way it's written feels more like something you'd read on Nifty than a real story. Maybe I'm wrong/cynical. If so, my apologies, but...
@stillthinking 145

" I guess what I'd like best would be some way for both parties to figure out how to have that conversation before one or both is so emotionally engaged that they take risks or settle for a situation that pushes their internal boundaries too far."

Agree with this. Now how best to do it? :) It is always going to vary from couple to couple... pretty hard to come up with a universal timeline. For me, sex and intimacy are very intertwined.... so disclosure before sex actually makes perfect sense (that might sound contradictory to my last few posts...but, i was just thinking out loud about these concepts more than stating my OWN preference)
@nocute - 143.... i have NO idea how i missed reading your post. (it isnt exactly short...haha)... but i see you already said more or less what i was getting at... oops! :) TLDR?
Cynara, now you're just spitting nonsense and stupidities. The only one who comes across as "extreme" is you. Take a look at how how cray-cray your answer to me reads. Obviously you're incapable of understanding concepts without slapping labels on it. No need to go further than the actual books to see they glamorize, rape, abuse, stalking, manipulation, lies, and not giving a crap about your partner. Read the books. The fact that you cannot recognize these things tells me that many women are so brainwashed and have such low standards in men that a rapist, violent, manipulative, lying, stalker of a man is viewed as manna from the sky. Sad. And please point me where I said penetration is rape. What is rape is penetration without consent. And if saying "penetration of the mouth, anal, vagina without consent is rape" makes me a radical, than I'll wear that label with proud. It's 2015 and we still think that the notion "penetration without consent is rape" is radical. It's messed up that even these type of comment boards abound of rape culture cheerleaders.
@136: Nice post! It just seems odd to me that everyone is debating The Deeper Meaning of 50 Shades, when it should just get the same "Kabuki Theater" allowance that video porn gets. Maybe they both need a "don't try this at home" warning.

Same thing for the kind of action movie where the hero fires 20 shots from his 6-shooter without pausing, takes down 30 armed bad guys singlehandedly, and emerges without a scratch.
I agree with Marcelina and Mr E;
Cause it depends on the disclosure.
Like STD's , please, before sexual contact.
Something like water sports, mention at the coffee, first date, so I can leave with out a fuss.
This guy in LW1, no problem him finding willing women in the vanilla/ peppermint chip world.
Christian Grey has seen to that.
EricaP - Re waiting until in love to disclose: I think your sexual tastes are relevant info when sex is imminent. Getting kinky in bed with no warning or invitation seems like emotional manipulation, while disclosing a kink before sex seems more like informed consent. I would think SHARE has seen 50 shades too much except Christian had a thing for informed consent with his vanilla. There was also a recent letter from a woman who kicked her lover out when he waited until after sex to disclose relevant info. I imagine the same for someone with long term intentions who can't bring up his kinks before sex. His performance history isn't as relevant as what he likes in bed, so he has a little more time to disclose that before he comes off as shady, I'd say months not years.

Rolling out kinks before sex was standard Savage advice, I had thought.
Hun - Are you saying informed consent isn't important sometimes? That's what disclosures are about. When is it unimportant, and why?
@158 Hun - I usually know what's important to me, so I'm not sure what you mean. Perhaps you mean that the only relevant info during a casual hookup is what will happen that night. I agree with that. But SHARE says he's looking for a long term, so I think he should disclose kinky long term sex needs before sex. He's not likely to go to bed with dates the first night if he's looking for a long term anyway.
philo/hunter/etc - What would you guys say is the difference between a kink and an ongoing fantasy? Perhaps that is where i get lost in this discussion.... I mean: if i think anal sex is hot, but its a desire that could be fulfilled by 3 or 4 times a year... where does something like that fall on the spectrum? Disclosure seems important for deal breakers... but less important for things that are wants more than needs... It also seems like people are more willing to explore things they previously never would have done AFTER they have reached a level of trust with their partner...
The 50 shades books won't be remembered as well as the movie(s),
will be.
And Anna in the movie stayed true to herself. She wasn't forced into anything.
To me, an erotically charged piece of cinema. Beautifully directed.
Depends Philo. If it's just casual sex, and no kink is introduced, then no need.
Agree, it can't be suddenly thrown at someone, once in bed.
If it's a want, not a need.
Also, time can pass.
LW1: as a professional, one assumes, his kink is deep in. So yes, early disclosure would be good for him. To stay true to himself.
Maybe not on his online profile though, cause he'll be swamped by responses from women who are just attracted to his kink, not him.
@160 Chairman - What would you guys say is the difference between a kink and an ongoing fantasy?
How it's been explained to me is, if you can't imagine being satisfied without it happening occasionally to regularly, it's a kink. Discerning a kink from a fantasy, or needs from wants, requires some realism about your own tendencies and feelings, otherwise known as self awareness.

It also seems like people are more willing to explore things they previously never would have done AFTER they have reached a level of trust with their partner
I agree. And that's why disclose, downplay, and drop can work so well I think. Just busting out kink in bed damages that trust (in a vanilla relationship). Trust is that feeling that you know each others' sexuality well and can expect a nice time with sex. Hiding your sexuality is the opposite of mutual vulnerability (intimacy) and healthy trust. You can easily avoid this with "I have some odd tastes in the bedroom, but I'd like to get to know you a little more before I share that part of myself." But saying nothing until after sex is likely to make your kinks look bad, even if your partner could share your tastes.

For areas of interest besides kinks, it doesn't matter how you roll them out... If they are rolled out badly and it becomes a hard line, that area of sex can just be taken off the table.

@162 Lava - If you are saying that as long as your kink is a need, it's fine to spring on someone in bed, I disagree. I think that's a good way to freak your lover out about it. Subs seem to like this though. I'm not saying it would piss everyone off.
@155, I'm pretty sure Dan just advises to reveal kinks early on and before things get too serious, where the other person feels betrayed by not knowing. Obviously, that relates to kinks you want in your life in the long run (say, watersports), not kinks you were hoping to fulfill right away with this person.

If waiting until "I love you" seems too long, how about waiting to reveal kinks until there's a discussion of being exclusive together? Before that point (for monogamous folks), I'm not sure why it matters if your sex partner privately likes crossdressing or being pegged or spanking scenes, assuming that they also enjoy vanilla sex.
@ Philo - "if you can't imagine being satisfied without it happening occasionally to regularly, it's a kink." That makes sense actually. Wasn't really thinking of NOT being fulfilled without it as part of it. thx

and EricaP... your post makes perfect sense too.

guess i'm still lost. haha
No Philo. I'm saying it's never ok, to just spring it on people in bed.
The letter in this week's column is less about disclosing a kink than it is about disclosing a somewhat more wild past.

As far as disclosing kinks go, I would posit a formula with the variables of duration of relationship, intensity of feelings, need for the kink as opposed to something that's fun to add to the mix occasionally, need for the partner to participate/observe the kink, and weirdness or "ick factor" or OMG-ness of the kink.

There's a world of difference, in my humble opinion, between a confession that someone likes to lick toes and the disclosure that someone wants to take a shit on his partner. Likewise there's a point somewhere between first coffee date and the wedding night.

It's not a one-size-fits-all kind of thing.
@168: Good point, Hunter.
@164 EricaP - how about waiting to reveal kinks until there's a discussion of being exclusive together?
I like this. The only potential problem I see is with people who don't have exclusivity talks. The highest IQ person I know simply starts to date exclusively when she sees long term potential, and breaks up with guys who don't seem to be doing the same. She's awesome on paper (career, beauty, even tempered), so I'd stick with bringing it up before sex if you see long term potential, so you don't rule people like her out. Maybe waiting a few weeks or month might work for her idk. But waiting for the exclusivity talk also seems utterly reasonable to me, that's when long term needs would seem to be relevant.

Lava - Sorry I misunderstood. I agree.
Ms Phile - Higher than Mark Labbett's? He's probably about where I'd draw the line (perhaps a titch on the high side) of where it becomes detrimental to successful dating.
Home made semen: boil 1 cup of water in a sauce pan, remove from heat and stir in 1 tsp cornstarch mixed with 2 tsp cool water. Whisk thoroughly. Add a spoonful or two of yogurt or sour cream to get to the consistency you want. We used to put this stuff in squeeze bottles and do erotic photo shoots. Fine to eat and did not seem to irritate any sensitive parts. It will keep refrigerated for a few days but the cost to make it is less than $0.25.
@168: Some people get kinkier when they get older. Some people who wanted to explore all their passing kink interests when they were young, later find that they don't really need them to be fulfilled.

My take: Personally, I like to establish fairly early on in a relationship whether the sex will be any good, so "before sex" may be too soon for a big-reveal kink. Before putting any kind of label on the relationship seems like a good yardstick.

It also depends on whether this is a dealbreaker or not. I quite like fucking guys with a strap-on. I know not all guys are into this, and if a guy is not, I'm fine with going without. So it's not as imperative that I tell them something like this on a first date. However, I am poly and intend to stay that way, so they definitely need to know that as soon as possible.
@151 gddss: I was referring to your sister Marcelina's #385 post from last week's column, for example:
Penetrative sex IS, by its very nature, violent and unequal; porn merely exaggerates this. We women should just stop offering up our "sanctuaries" to these barbaric "invaders." I, for one, am ok with that.

No mention of consent there, just "by its very nature".
@170, we're trying to create general guidelines; if Person Pat follows my suggested guidelines (revealing a kink when it feels right, but before Pat agrees to being exclusive or says 'I love you') and then some other person (however awesome) still feels jerked around, that just means that person will be awesome for someone else, but isn't compatible with Pat.

The goal in dating isn't to fake compatibility with all the awesome people out there; it's to be more-or-less yourself, and look for the awesome people who find you awesome the way you are. Revealing a kink too early (watersports at the first coffee, for instance) can drive people away too. I want to allow people some flexibility to find the right moment -- after a connection is already in place, but before an implicit promise has been made that all relevant info is on the table.
@173: BiDanFan, I don't necessarily agree that everyone gets kinkier as they get older, so much as agreeing with the idea that people and their interests and desires and even the depth of intensity for those desires change over time.
I think that if something is super important to you--whether it's a sexual act or style, or religion, or views on having children, or your veganism, or what-have-you, you should disclose early. If you know you're aren't going to be able to stay in any kind of relationship with someone who can't accept that thing--can't do it or be around you when you do it--you shouldn't waste your time or theirs.

Likewise, if you know that your thing--whatever it is, if it's not visible in the light of day or right upfront, like being poly or trans or vegan--is something that not everybody can be presumed to be just fine and dandy with, with no prior knowledge and acceptance of, you should disclose early--why waste the other person's time or yours?

If your thing is that one of the sex acts you enjoy is a slight deviation from vanilla, or you have a bad credit rating, or you're Wiccan, or you're a man who likes to jerk off by watching porn alone while wearing women's lingerie, or that in your past, you used to be an exhibitionist rope-bondage performer or a stripper, that is, if your thing is relatively low-impact, I think you can wait a longer while, even perhaps, until after the "l love yous" have been said.
@177: I forgot to add something about drug addictions and diseases. Some diseases are worrisome because they affect the sufferer's quality or length of life; some more so because they are communicable. But I think the more impact they will have on either or both parties, the sooner they should be disclosed. Except perhaps herpes. My jury's out on that, as it is so over-reacted against and stigmatized for hyped hysterical reasons not justified. Still, people have the right to make informed decisions.

And then the credit rating thing: if you're about to merge finances, you have a right to know that your own financial security isn't going to take a hit.

LW3, the guy who fell on hard times then fell on cocks to make ends meet.
Think you are not being honest with yourself or your wife. If you want to be with men as well as with your family,
Then you got to be in that truth.
Sorry. Can't help you make money. And you know, she might be fine for you making money that way.
Food is food. One needs it.
And panty sniffing guy. Food poisoning from off Mayo, especially if it's Mayo made with eggs- best problem you might have to face.
So don't lick it. Too late? Oh well.
@178: Oh no. Herpes absolutely MUST be disclosed, not only before you get naked but even before the first kiss. Stigmatized or not, herpes is an incurable STD and not disclosing it is inexcusable.
nocutename @177 "if it's not visible in the light of day or right upfront, like being poly or trans or should disclose early--why waste the other person's time or yours?"

We've had this argument before, but if you pass as a woman, then disclosing that you were born with a male body is not much like disclosing that you are vegan. It makes you very vulnerable to having your life completely turned upside down. I personally don't think that a trans person owes it to the world to explain their medical history before the two people even find out if they're compatible in other ways. There are worse things to face than having your time wasted.
*sigh* I know I'm late in the game beloved and I went out for sun-catching just in time before the rainstorms returned this weekend. We got out of the way for a few days while new windows and screens (no more mosquito attacks--yaay!) were put in my apartment. After a little housecleaning yesterday, I have a nice, clean home again. The beach bumming was fun while it lasted. My VW and I need a spring break.

Thanks again, Dan, for excellent advice this week, and to everyone for great comments. It has been another wonderful read.
@183: Correction: VW and I needed a spring break. We had a blast; it was just sadly too short.
@183-@184: Beaches, good red wine, GF burgers & snacks, a killer pool and jacuzzi.....and Thelma and Louise on HBO in our hotel room! Wahoo!!
Please, everyone, forgive these late posts for Dan's Savage Love column from last week (Never Enough):
@488:busy_quilting: Wow--Wellington sounds quite windy--open waters? Stormy seas? Open country, cold & damp..sounds ideal for vampires & werewolves...Ooooooooooowoooooo!
@489 ChairmanOfTheBoard: Ahh--Forks--Washington State's Vampire & Werewolf Capital!
Gotta love the true rain country---sorry about the Olympic Mountains' drought, though. Save the Rain Forest! It's a nice drive along Highway 101.
Me, I'm just a crazy, beach bummin' "Hamster", myself.

Okay, back to Kinky Boys.
Really Erica? Think being a Trans person is something that needs to be disclosed up front, straight away.
And being into extreme kinks, they also, if they are absolutely required, they need to be Told about, up front.
Oh. And if one has been in jail for any serious crimes, think that might be something I'd like to know, before any dates.
More than happy to be friends with a trans man. A student at my Buddhist class, is a trans man- and we've known each other since before his transition. Have much affection for him.
Just would not be interested in a romantic connection.

So a transman has to tell you even before any flirting happens? Does he have to wear a sign around his neck so that people don't accidentally get crushes on him?

Or do you just mean that he had better tell you before kissing? And if that's what you mean, what is the terrible consequence for you if you accidentally kiss someone who was born with a female body? Will it give you a disease or make you lose your job or have people attack you in an alley, if you happen to kiss a man without knowing that he was born with a female body? But if the transman tells everyone he might consider kissing, then some of those people will turn out to be jerks, who will tell everyone in his life about his secret. And then the transman does face losing his job or having people attack him in an alley.

So tell me why does a transman owe you this duty?
Now I'm getting into trouble, cause of whom I might wish to date?
It's ok Erica. We all know you carry the perfect person flag. We all bow.
Speaking of trans...RIP Taylor. I'm sorry it never got better.
@190 cont; Or is that who I might wish to date?
Just waiting for this class to start. Get my strine( Australian English), up to scratch in no time.
Tito. Sorry to hear of your friend's death.
Lava: you are sweet. Taylor was a transgendered girl who committed suicide this week. I didn't know her. I doubt it would have made it to your Australian news.
Tito; Oh. We do get some US news of course, but not about her.
A young woman who was to be married yesterday(Sat), got murdered on Easter Sunday here.
She was a teacher and had gone to her school to leave instructions for the relief teacher who was to take over from her. The 24 yr old male school cleaner, killed her.
That was our headline news this week.
Sad. And icky. Was it an obsession thing? Or random? I'm not morbid. I just feel like if people share stories we can share the pain a little so nobody is alone
@191 tito: I'm sorry to read about the loss of Taylor, and that it was a suicide. That's very sad.
@195 LavaGirl : Really sad about the young and engaged school teacher murdered on Easter Sunday!
My heartfelt condolences to all.

@196 tito: I agree about sharing stories. It really does help to talk / email/ Skype / write, etc. to someone--especially those who can relate and empathize. Finally letting go of my truly awful (read: selfish, greedy, infantile, controlling, manipulative, disrespectful and unappreciative--for starters) older siblings after all these years has been such a blessedly freeing relief for me.
Tito, it was in a small country town.
I haven't read the details. The bare facts are horrid enough. I'm guessing just opportunity. And random.
They both just at the school alone, on a Sunday, during school holidays.
Hey Grizelda, yes. Life too short to spend it with unloving people. Who ever they are.
@175 EricaP - Re disclosing (trans) early: I don't believe trans is legally well accepted. There is a lot of red tape and sometimes nasty hoops (surgery) required to change gender legally. So I think that you are asking a lot for people to "get over" feeling jerked around or led on by starting to mess around without disclosure of something that unusual and sexual. Some people may react very badly to being jerked around, I don't believe that's actually safer than taking a slow pace while dating and disclosing before sex.

I didn't like the consent problems in the column that I believe you're referring to…
I could easily see her telling a buddy that beats the trans guy up. More easily than if the trans guy had disclosed before sex. Not to mention it hurt her to have sex without knowing, she said she would have declined had she known and I don't think she should have been expected to grope before she assumed the type of equipment below the belt. It's a good lesson that groping early is important, but society is still catching up, you seem to be expecting a lot from the general population.

Re the goal of dating: Effectiveness is not the only consideration. I believe that ethical considerations are also important. Although the self harm of unethical routines is less obvious, I've found that routines that tend to hurt other people require clearly communicated consent to work well in life.
@182: EricaP: "We've had this argument before, but if you pass as a woman, then disclosing that you were born with a male body is not much like disclosing that you are vegan. It makes you very vulnerable to having your life completely turned upside down. I personally don't think that a trans person owes it to the world to explain their medical history before the two people even find out if they're compatible in other ways. There are worse things to face than having your time wasted. "

We have had this discussion before. First of all, the inclusion of "vegan" was meant as a joke, though I suppose it might have been too much an in-joke for me to assume others would take it that way. But rest assured, I understand that disclosing trans status is very different from disclosing that you're a vegan. For what it's worth, I'd rather hang out with a trans person than a vegan--and I'd certainly prefer to cook for them.

This time, you used as your example a transwoman who passes completely. If that's the case, if her original sex at birth isn't clear even when she's naked, then okay, I don't think that the disclosure needs to come so very early. If the only reason that a partner would reject her would be due to a prejudice against transgender people or some kind of preconceived bias, then that's different. However, I'm aware that a lot of people don't always opt for bottom surgery (or haven't yet had it) or don't pass as completely as those you seem to be using as examples, and those are the cases I'm addressing.

I'm not saying that anyone "owes it to the world to explain their medical history," but disclosing that you're trans is far more than that. It doesn't need to get disclosed to the world, but it should be disclosed to a potential sex/romance partner very early on--if not before a first kiss, then well before people's pants come off. If you're meeting via a dating website I think it should be on the profile; let those who don't want to date you weed themselves out. If you meet in person, the pre-internet way, I don't believe you need to shake hands while saying, "hi, I'm Suzanne; I'm a transwoman," but I do think that once the conversation turns flirty or a date is made, or at the very least by the end of that first real date, you should disclose. It's not a minor thing. It's not like disclosing your medical history. For many people, it is a deal-breaker and thus supercedes other points of compatibility. I believe it is better to know that the person you're with wants to be with you or isn't going to knee-jerk reject you earlier rather than later.

I'm aware that trans people face more serious consequences than just wasting their time when they disclose, and I'm not trying to suggest that anyone do anything that puts their safety in jeopardy. But I'd think that the kind of man to behave violently against a transwoman would be even more enraged if he felt he had been duped or made a fool of. And if we're not talking about the threat of violence, but just plain old rejection, then I think trans people don't get special exemptions or treatment to shield themselves from it. I don't know what you mean by disclosing that you were born with a different body "makes you very vulnerable to having your life completely turned upside down" if you're not talking about the threat of violence, but if it's something else, like being publicly outed, then again, I have to think that the longer a man has been uninformed, if he's the kind of man who would see that as having been misled, the greater the risk of some sort of unpleasant retaliation. Better to find out what kind of person you are dealing with before getting too involved. While that's good general advice, I understand it's not always easy to follow. But if you're trans, you have a much stronger vested interested in reading cues and figuring out how someone might react to such news early. For that reason, I think it's in everyone's best interest to disclose early and not just to save wasted time.
Philophile: Our posts crossed, but I think we're saying essentially the same thing.
Yes, trans folks come in all sorts of stages of transition.

It's reasonable to expect a transwoman who still has male parts to have an anonymous dating profile (fake name, no face photos) and reveal her trans-status there, with face pics to follow when people show they are serious and respectful.

But it's different for a transwoman who took blocking hormones during puberty so she never developed male secondary characteristics (shoulders, facial hair), and when she turned 18 had bottom surgery, and has lived completely as a woman for twenty years, including college and her whole career. If she joins a dating site, she gets to just be a woman, looking for a man. Her medical history is just that -- history which she can share the way another woman would share her fertility issues or her cancer history.

Do you think that all women who have fertility issues need to announce those before kissing a potential partner?
And by have one's life turned upside down I meant that if a transphobic person outed a trans person, that might easily get the trans person fired or evicted (in some states, that wouldn't even be illegal; in the states where it would be illegal, the workplace or landlord could easily find excuses to cover up for their transphobia.)

Revealing fertility issues doesn't lead to people getting fired or evicted, and yet we don't reasonably expect someone to confess all their fertility issues before kissing.
If you need to know everything important about a person before you are willing to kiss them, then it's on you to make that clear. That's not how the world works, generally. People kiss before finding out about the other person's mental health issues, ex-spouse issues, fertility issues, career problems, and sexual dysfunction issues. And if you can't deal with that, then don't kiss people before you've known them six months and are sure you've talked about all these issues.
@ 178 - And just to prove how right you are, there's comment 181.
@ 206 - Perfectly said.
EricaP: I don't know where you got all this "before the first kiss" stuff. But that's not what I was talking about.
I don't doubt that some of the repercussions you mention have occurred, but that level of well-executed assholery seems like it would be rare. if I was trans and those were the stakes, I would damn well want to make sure that I only dated (or kissed) someone whom I absolutely knew in advance wouldn't "revenge" himself on me that way.
@171 Venn - Slightly higher iirc. She seems to form long happy relationships although she's picky. I don't understand why you have an upper limit for acceptable pattern recognition. More proficiency is better imo.

EricaP - I don't think that trans women who are indistinguishable from infertile (&probably anorgasmic iirc) cis women need to behave any differently, ethically. But the rules appear to be gendered here. Because anyone who is making reasonable assumptions about their partner, ie my boyfriend will produce semen when he comes, will get a sex surprise if a trans man does not disclose before sex. And people can do shitty things when they get a nasty surprise in bed. Someone with a semen fetish would be understandably disappointed in bed and feel any investment had been wasted under false pretenses.

I don't think that people need "get over" disappointment when they have been operating under reasonable assumptions. Instead I think it's helpful for people to distance themselves from others when reasonable assumptions fail to predict behavior well. I think the burden of informed consent is on the person's shoulders who is benefiting from another's reasonable but incorrect assumptions. If you can truly compete on your own merits, you don't need to take advantage of others, I think manipulation looks weak.
@209, I am talking about kissing rather than sex because LavaGirl said @187 that trans issues need to be disclosed before going on a first date.

And before you speculate about how you would feel if you were trans yourself, maybe you should make more trans friends and ask them what they feel is appropriate. I note that you didn't address the part where I said the person had been living as a woman, post-op, for 20 years, and was indistinguishable from a cis woman. You still feel that they need to only date people who are already fine with dating someone transgender? They can't be given the space of a few months to slowly try to educate someone, with the help of, yes, an emerging emotional attachment?

@210, transwomen usually do have orgasms, post-hormones and post-surgery as well. You're correct that they can't bear children. But as I said above, we don't normally expect an infertile woman to announce that to people before they've kissed.
It definitely seems best for trans folk to disclose before they have a "Crying Game" moment.

How would everyone's advice be different if someone had to disclose having nonstandard equipment for other reasons? Say a man who had no penis due to botched circumcision or a woman born without a vagina.

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