Would just like to emphasise to WOW to play safe out there. You may be postmenopausal, and therefore immune to crotch-fruit, but you will not be immune to any potential crotch-rot. This is something that often gets forgotten when you find yourself back on the market after an extended absence, and being in a long-term relationship where protection is often not necessary.

I wonder if the first LW is hoping that her relationship will end in marriage. I like how Dan ended his response, she should try to enjoy the time she has with her boyfriend for what it is and not put too much emphasis on him being The One.

COCK--ditch this guy. He's a hot mess and you don't need this drama. You didn't do anything wrong, but it's best to not continue.

Math IS hard but Dan you may want to clarify that .15 percent does not equal 15 percent. .15% of the US population would be a much smaller pool of just 110,000 gerontophiles... That number might be discouraging to any of the gerontophile/ gerontophile-lover community who happen to know how decimals work.

1) I hope someday the internet realizes the difference between "math" and "arithmetic"
2) Age 62 is not elderly.

Agree with crone... there are some pretty attractive 62-year-olds (my mother-in-law is 62, gorgeous, and could pass for 50 up close, 40 from a distance.) 62 does not equal 85!

I guess you had to bring up "math is hard" Barbie. I hate people sometimes.

OleSharBones @5 -- Dan is talking about the world population, and .15% of a bit over 7 billion is indeed about 11 million.

.15% of the US population, is 480,000 -- the US has about 320million inhabitants.

Good luck, WOW. Your letter to Dan has left me with food for thought.
@6 crone and @7 Azul: I agree---age 62 is still a KID! Ask my oldest sister!

COCK's kid is definitely closeted. Excellent advice this week, Dan the Man. I agree--hope COCK's kid's alleged girlfriend, real or Memorex, should dump his messed up ass.

Ohhhh dear. I guess "math is hard" Barbie's cute little plastic head hurts now.

NAGGING DTFMA. This guy has already been dishonest with you getting with someone in the hopes of 'changing' them is never a good idea.

Speaking of math is hard... that's not causation OR correlation. That's a difference in base rates.

Bless all you gerontophiles out there. Every one.

Mr Savage's first response could have used a guest (Mr Maupin springs to mind; does one of them not like the other?).

For Couple #3, there could perhaps be a philosophical discussion of whether people in their position of Accessory to Cross-Announced-Orientational-Activity ought at least to make a show of requesting Alleged Partner's permission or complaisance. If nothing else, it will provide the confused party with the opportunity to lie convincingly if the alleged partner does not exist.

Oh boy. Well. As someone with some experience in this area (~20 year age spread), all I can say to WOW is that @7 is correct: it really depends on what you look like. There are poorly aging people in their mid-30s who are just gross and unattractive and quite well preserved people in their late 60s. If you're in pretty good condition, you may have little trouble finding a young man for a casual hookup or FWB no-commitment relationship, even if they aren't a gerontophile.

And, based on those experiences, I would say (much more emphatically) to NAGGING, setting aside the massive red flags around someone who a) has never been able to commit or be monogamous in their very long adult life suddenly making a promise to do both and b) finds their soulmate in someone with such a huge experience/maturity differential (run baby, run, if you're even still reading this), then let me offer that the odds that you will both be "in the same place" (phase of life) for very long are incredibly poor.

Have fun, bop him, enjoy the ride for a couple of years, but do not expect this to hold up. He will likely change very little (except for being increasingly less "virile" and ultimately requiring more medical care), and you will change a lot; you will go through a lot of phases and experiences in the next 20 years that utterly alter your life. Expecting to continue to feel he is the best/right partner for you throughout that is highly unrealistic/unlikely.

Anyone who thinks 62 is elderly, I have two words for you: Helen Mirren.

As for COCK's toyboy's potential girlfriend, if she exists, I see no reason for her to DTMFA. Maybe she's bi herself and supportive of her boyfriend exploring his sexuality ("understanding but pissed" sounds as if he's discussed his desires with her before, but she didn't expect him to try them out with two older dudes he met online). He's obviously following the two cardinal rules of non-monogamy: be safe and be honest. He may be confused, but discovering one's sexuality is a process. If she can accept it and accompany him through it, she may reap the rewards.

Is 62 old? I have a friend who will be 60 next month - her kids are just starting out in college, she looks great, barely a wrinkle on her face, good body, and a very active sex life w/her husband (who from all accounts can't keep his hands off her - and he's 5 years younger). I have no doubt that if she were single and out there she'd find plenty of men of all ages who would be interested. Maybe not guys in their 20s, but 30s for sure!

NAGGING: You'll be a completely different person in 10 years. He won't.

It won't last, but it doesn't need to.

I hope everyone takes Dan's statistical claims with a huge grain of salt. Calling something a "recent study" doesn't necessarily mean there's any validity to it. I'm still reeling from Dan's claim that gay people make up 5% of the population; for anyone knows, it might be closer to 40%.

Sorry, I mean for ALL anyone knows!

NAGGING - his willingness to slow down (and be monogamous) might simply coincide with aging. What you should really be doing (rather than asking yourself if he will be faithful) is analyzing whether you can have the life you really want with this man. Do you want children? Do you picture yourself sitting in a rocking chair with your spouse and watching your grandchildren play? If so, then hard as it may be, you need to let this guy go...

It can be difficult to project yourself forward to a version of you that doesn't exist yet... but I'm sure you at least have some idea as to what you want from your life. Some people underestimate how hard it is to start over later in life (which you will most assuredly be doing if you stay with this much older man). So just make sure you are okay with all the other stuff that comes with a much older partner before you even bother trying to assess whether he is trustworthy and you will feel like the most important woman in his life. You WILL be the most important woman in his life when you are changing his diapers.

A 62 yo woman is not too old and she can easily get a horny younger man regardless of her looks. The age difference is a boner it it's own right among the many men who will return the call (depending on the city, but I assume hundreds will apply with revealing pictures and all.)

And as opposed to the young woman who insists on relationship with the older dude, all those erected younger guys want are one or two, maybe three, exotic sexual encounters with an older woman. They will leave her alone afterwards while cherish the experience for the rest of their lives (unless they share it with their younger, nagging, insecure girlfriends who may feel threatened for some reason after learning about their past.)

re: NAGGING. start with a very frank and straight-forward conversation: You are the only man in my life and I want to be the only woman in your life. If he feels the same there is only one choice - trust him or leave him.
If you can't or won't trust him, then you need to leave him.
If you don't want to leave then you have to trust him. You just make the decision: I trust this man, and I believe he will be faithful. Any time that little voice in your head tries to tell you otherwise, you shut it down and repeat.
It's a lesson we all have to learn - you can't control you're partner. There is nothing you can say or do to prevent him from cheating. The only thing you CAN control is yourself, by being the best partner you can be. And if he still cheats after you've been a fantastic (non-nagging) partner - well, good riddance.

All I could think of while reading NAGGING's letter is:

Whoa, nellie! You're asking the *wrong* person for relationship advice. I'd first be asking his former fuck buddies how many of them heard the same line about how "this time it's different, I've never been with anyone like you!" Because that's the kind of thing a lot of guys (especially old-fashioned guys like him) think they need to lie about to get a girl into bed. Especially younger women who are more susceptible to bullshit like that.

My guess is, "a lot" and he's not as open and honest as you think he is. It's so common as to be cliche. But hey, I could be wrong, too.

All I could think of while reading NAGGING's letter is:

Whoa, nellie! You're asking the *wrong* person for relationship advice. I'd first be asking his former fuck buddies how many of them heard the same line about how "this time it's different, I've never been with anyone like you!" Because that's the kind of thing a lot of guys (especially old-fashioned guys like him) think they need to lie about to get a girl into bed. Especially younger women who are more susceptible to bullshit like that.

My guess is, "a lot" and he's not as open and honest as you think he is. It's so common as to be cliche. But hey, I could be wrong, too.

"But that is correlation, not causation—and sophistry, too!"

I love that line. I think it makes me a statistics nerd that it was the one thing I LOLed at in this column.

Also, the reassurance that primacy takes time was right on the money. You don't get it from promises or talking each other to death. Too many relationships end the day/week/month after promises of eternal devotion were made to allow us to feel secure in that. Feeling secure in your relationship is something that happens after a lot of days in which the other person doesn't leave you even though you're you and life happens and there are other women.

COCK - I think they have done the right thing, but I wonder at what point it is acceptable for him to set boundaries? How about "you know, we like you, and if you need to talk we'll be here, but can you get one of those apps that keeps you from drunk dialing us?"

I don't think a 62 year old requires a guy with a senior fetish. Depending on a lot of factors, 62 can be still very much on the upswing of "over the hill." If she is youthful and fit I am betting she gets lots of offers.

If she was 72 it might be harder.

@ gromm 25, 26
Unfortunately this is what many older men still feel they have to get into in order to have sex with younger women.
But look at the bright side: Somewhere there’s a 62-year-old woman who’s going to place an ad or two in one of those sites, she’ll get loads of younger men responding, and if society, family and all that allow then within a year she can experience what that older dude may or may not in his lifetime.
And all this is very likely to be almost 100% emotional-waste free.

31 yrs age difference? Honey, open the relationship now. This man will not be keeping up with you.
Primacy. Your youth is your primacy.

Dan; didn't see any mention of the girl in the first letter being sexually attracted to the elderly, or naming her situation as being attracted to gerontophiles. I'm sure it was just an oversite on your part.
Or, this situation just applicable to an older woman lusting after a young man? These terms, these distinctions?
Surely we can't think you are sexist in your perceptions?
Or is it that the older man in letter one is only in his 50s, not really old and in his 60s?

Correction; @33. As being a gerontophile.

@25 is right on the money. The first thing that popped into my head was, "How many of those other women did he feed that line about them being the exception, the special snowflake?"

Frankly, no one's that special. How many times have men claimed "All my exes are crazy?" Oh yeah, they were all crazy. Sure. Riiiight. "You're the special one" is just the inverse of "all my exes are crazy." He's trying to make you feel like you're not part of a pattern, when you totally are.

If you weren't seeing this through a lens of New Relationship Energy, youth, and wishful thinking, you'd see the impending train wreck where you're just another notch on his bed post.

LW1; you should welcome his no strings attached past, cause you know- won't be long and you'd be having to get him to his Dr's appointments and listen to how his body is ailing.
And how's your relationship with your father?

@gromm: how many of them heard the same line

This guy has "fucked hundreds of women". The only way to accomplish something like that is with charisma, not cheap tricks or false promises.

He's getting old, his life as a stud is winding down, so he's ready to settle down. With a woman half his age. Makes perfect sense.

@37 no, I've known a few lotharios who manage to get a different girl every weekend with cheap tricks, cornball lines, and false promises (lies). There are a lot of stupid, gullible people out there. You don't need any special charisma to get laid if you lack scruples.

There's a giant red flag that I think Dan missed in NAGGING's letter:
"We both feel vulnerable at times—him because I'm still in contact with one ex..."

He has a whole network of former fuckbuddies that he's introduced you to, and he feels insecure because you're still in touch with ONE ex? There's no reason to put up with that kind of hypocrisy.

Makes perfect sense , WoofCandy?
Guess it does. In the long run its gonna be a lot cheaper than hiring a nurse or paying for a bed in a nursing home.
Pity she misses out on being with men who will satisfy her , past the bullshit phase.
Run girl, Run.

@21: I don't think many twenty-somethings are picturing themselves in a rocking chair with grandchildren. Picturing age 40 is near enough to impossible at that age.

@22: "all those erected younger guys want are one or two, maybe three, exotic sexual encounters with an older woman. They will leave her alone afterwards while cherish the experience for the rest of their lives"
Damn, that's disappointing. I hate the idea that I'll have to trade in my toyboy that often (or that they'll be trading me in that often). Good toyboys are hard to find.

@25: Good point about talking to the fuck-buddies. However, if someone fed them a line about "this time it's different, you're the only one for me, etc" then cheated, I don't think he'd still be friends with so many of them. @35 may want to consider this too.

I have to disagree with my FID (friends in Dan) who give COCK a pass. They clearly violated the campsite rule. The kid is freaking out. Just because it is coming out ritual doesn't mean it is right. Knowing it is someone's first time, and knowing that it is possible to freak out only increases the obligation. Just because it is hot does not give a free pass in the high school hallway. In fact that is the reason the campsite rule has to be invoked ever: "but I thought she was hot so I did it anyway" just doesn't pass muster.

So a not-yet-60-year-old man is practically in diapers while 62-year-old-women can routinely get and keep indefinitely all the male members they want in the 18-34 bracket? I agree that we need an antidote to the Hefner Factor, but this seems to be going a bit beyond what's needed.

My grandfather, who died last November at age 102, was still living on his own with minimal visiting help until well past his 99th birthday and still walking over a quarter mile round trip once or twice a day in good weather without a cane or walker. More or less in defence of the second part, I do know one woman, now 93, who in her 80's was a competitive ballroom dancer and did fend off a number of men in their 50's. My experience of the beyond-middle-aged tends to start past retirement, but suggests that the honours of holding up well are about even; I don't particularly care to get into the gender war of which group can get more youngsters.

@Venn - LW is seemingly wanting this man for the long haul.... so projecting the 31 year age difference forward is what people are doing... (or at least...what i have done)

“My partner is 31 years older than I am. […] he's been a lifelong bachelor and never been monogamous. He's fucked hundreds of women and is close friends with a lot of his former fuck buddies. […] he's fucked every woman he's friends with […] I still feel like because of how many people he's been with, and how many of these amazing, beautiful, young fuck buddies are still in his life, I'll never attain any sort of primacy.”

Wow, she's 31 years younger and *still* not sure she's good enough for this worn-out Lothario? Is she dating Hugh Hefner? Either she's the most insecure person ever, or he's a cartoon supervillain, or both.

NAGGING, a friend of mine used to have a saying to the effect that everyone has an expiration date stamped on their ass.

I get that you feel insecure because your partner has spent the last half century sticking his dick into every woman with a heartbeat, and is not quite exhausted enough to settle for monogamy just yet – but it may cheer you up to know that the clock is always ticking, and he’s one hell of a lot closer to midnight than you are. Unless your boyfriend is Superman, the day is coming, and probably not too far away, when you’ll no longer have to worry about all his amazing, beautiful, young fuck buddies, because he’ll no longer be able to attract decades younger fuck buddies nor get it up – at which point, you’ll “attain primacy” with this fabulous prize, at least by subtraction.

@27 a sweet and salient summary.

the new campsite rule: bury your shit deep enough no one will accidentally step in it.

" Hunter, " pedal their lifestyle? Really. And here were we thinking you had reformed, just a bit.

I shall peddle my pedals while pedaling through the petals.

that's me selling bike pedals while riding my bike through a field of flowers.

Excellent point, @39. That popped out at me at first but I forgot by the time I commented.

@41, having seen this pattern of behavior before, you'd be surprised how many former fuck buddies will stick around almost indefinitely holding out hope. And they don't necessarily feed that line to every single fuck buddy, just the ones they think want to hear it.

Tessiee, yes @45;
Such an obvious cloak and mirrors routine. Took me a long time to realize a lot of men use that manoeuvre.
Creating competition between women, to hide what the real truth is. And women get caught by it, or rather- it's a constant undermining of her sense of self. And women get caught by it.

Clever way to keep women in line and doing what you want them to do.
Latch onto their insecurities and competition with other women.

@39 I agree, that point sticks out. But let's remark her older partner has not tried to limit her interactions with her one ex so far, so it's not really such a huge red flag. Besides, the fact that he's friendly with most of his exes is a very valid green flag : were he an abuser, no ex would want any contact with him.

And that's how LW should consider the entourage : a guarantee that Lothario is indeed going to play fair with her. (Of course, if Lothario is full of money, this green flag is totally void).

I like Tessie's expiration date theory. I think it explains why Lothario feels insecure about LW's ex, who is presumably much younger than him : ex will always be fresher than Lothario, and Lothario has to fear, most of all, the comparison with younger studs.

Besides, if Lothario has so many exes he's friendly with, I'm almost certain that it's either because it never was serious between them, or it was more serious but they have dumped him, on reasons LW might come to discover along the road ; in either case he had enough redeeming qualities that they stayed friends. LW, see Lothario as a serial dumpee and you'll be less threatened by the entourage. It's pretty rare to want second helpings of someone whom you've dumped.

It's quite possible that the entourage consider that their friend Lothario's already hit his expiration date. As they're friends, they have nothing than goodwill for the youngster Lothario's now dating, as they wouldn't want him to end up alone ; then the entourage would act glad he met her. Is the entourage welcoming enough, LW ? If it isn't, there's a problem.

Accordingly, I find it a bit bothering that LW is worried about not being enough of a primary. It could be the usual insecurity of the youth, but if the relationship is genuine, you should feel reassured by Lothario's behaviour towards you. Whatever qualities Lothario has, they're fast becoming a thing of the past, so the one who's hit the jackpot, in this relationship, is Lothario. And the jewel is LW, and treat her as someone special he must. The only reason why he could still behave as if he was the prized jewel of the relationship, is if there has been not long enough of a dry spell before he met LW. A little anguish over 'will I ever meet anyone again' is pretty sobbering for the ego. Do you feel treated like a jewel, LW ? If he isn't, either he's playing you and you should leave, or he doesn't know how to treat someone well enough, because it'a a new situation for him. Don't hesitate to teach him how well you expect to be treated : gifts, respect, attention.

Being a primary takes time, sure, but it also takes enough self confidence to behave as one. He's told you you're his primary, so you can take him on his word. Is he neglecting you, spending more time with his friends than with you ? Remind him you're his primary and lay down a few rules, like you get as much time as a couple together without his friends, that he spends with his friends. Don't limit his time with his friends, it's controlling and silly, and go with him as often as possible (they will become friends of you too), but don't accept any reducing on your couple's private time over friends. Be firm on that.
And be accepting of his old habits. Old people can't drastically change for long but in little ways. If monogamy is the drastic change you want from him, be accepting of his other habits, he'll have an easier time sticking to monogamy.

FFS LW1, run! This man is not going to give you what you want or need because it's not who he is. You may feel the two of you are on the same level but you're not (and if you are there is something seriously wrong with him). Try hanging out with a couple of high school kids-people who are maybe 10 years younger than you are. Is it fulfilling? Do you still have the same emotional and life skills you had back then or have you grown since high school? That growth continues exponentially through your 20s and 30s and beyond. Either your guy hasn't grown (bad) or wants to be with younger girls because it's easy to get what he wants from them (worse). You're feeling insecure in a relationship that frankly, should be making you feel like a goddess or at least in the midst of an exciting experience. Either dump this guy (yes!!) or drastically change your expectations.

@Chairman #50 : ... Petalbomb !

(actually Beetlebomb, but who cares ?)

Oh, no, it's actually Feetlebaum ! Who knew ? Gosh, I've spent my youth thinking that either Petalbomb or Pedalbomb were hilarious punchlines, and I was wrong all this time !

@ re NAGGING: No WONDER I only seem to attract men 15+ years older (or younger?) than I am! It's weird, though---the internet has already targeted my age bracket [50+] with dating sites cocked and loaded, aimed to shoot their wad at me anytime online. But I'm not out looking. I didn't sign up for these sites---I wonder if my server sold off my likes / dislikes info to other ad sites....ig. At least there are the Spam and Delete options. Ah, the Tech Age.
Maybe I need to laugh about this----I remember Dan responding in his book, Savage Love, to someone's comment about his advice to a copraphiliac (poop fetishist), recommending that the LW go online. I loved Dan's snappy response (on page 71) about the Internet being full of shit.

LavaGirl (re my grad school application status): Today I emailed my graduate advisor, who, with no strings or particularly optimistic tone to his response online, bluntly replied that the final decision was up to the evaluating faculty (which I knew already); he hadn't heard anything yet, but would have the grad admissions office notify me. Ouch. Oh, well. It was worth a shot.
On a more positive note, there is an independent grant I can apply for by May 18th for a music stipend about 100 miles from where I live. So, if I hear a no-go from my university, I'll look into that.

@59, Part II: Just to clarify on the quote from Dan's book (c.1998): The commenter writing to Dan about his response was the one to suggest that the LW [a,k,a "ME"] try the internet in pursuit of his fetish.

@40 LavaGirl: Agreed (re NAGGING and WoofCandy's comment @37)--Run girl run!

@56 Sissou... well... you have given me my [once upon a time] pop-culture lesson of the day... since none of that made any sense to me until i googled all of it. hahaha

Grizelda; of course. Officials have to be officials.
Yes. Try the next thing. the old pick yourself up, dust yourself off.
Ah, Frank. One of the voices of my childhood.

@Chaucer59: I've known a few lotharios who manage to get a different girl every weekend with cheap tricks, cornball lines, and false promises

Point conceded. Note - the one guy I know who's fucked hundreds of women is just one of those lucky guys that women love.

With regard to LW's boyfriend, the fact that he's remained friends with many of his "amazing, beautiful, young fuck buddies" and he's been quite open with LW about his past liaisons paints a different picture of him in mind than the stereotype that @gromm and yourself have fallen back on.

COCK absolutely withheld the campfire rule....they allowed this guy to make his own decision and to take part in his sexual exploration. His freaking out has nothing to do with them. Their letter says that they have tried to be there for him. The fact that they even cared enough to write this letter shows that they are figuring out how to help. Most people probably would have just stopped communicating with him when his personal drama came done. I wish my first gay encounter had cared enough to check in with me and to even reach out to ask advice on how to best help me.

Mr Chairman - I don't know; she sounds like the type to worry herself into an early grave. If I were a betting person and received good odds, I'd consider a shot at his outliving her.

I don't, though, hold it against anyone (usually not even Mr Savage) for knowing which side the bread is buttered.

Mr Venn.... to me... she sounds worried because she is way out of her element... meaning she is 25 and he is 56 (or close to those numbers). She hopefully knows enough to know that she is beyond unsophisticated in contrast to her playboy boyfriend...

Translation: she's not "worried"... she's young. ;)

WoofCandy; age don't lie, brother.
Stereotype. Some sad middle aged man, no solid foundations in his life- oh, he can boast about his many conquests.
Sorry. But older men who prey on much younger women are blood suckers
As I see it. Taking these women's youth off them.
Toss him back in, LW. And go find yourself a young man.

@Chairman

Glad I could introduce you to something amazing. I absolutely love Spike Jones. The dance of the bumblebee ! And Miranda's damned biscuits. And the blue Danube who has another hue, me ? no, you ! And the Katchaturian's neighbor dance. And the Carmen tickling song. And Il Barkio ! I could go on and on...

Nighty night, I'm off !

Mr Chairman - I just went by her general style of communication without even considering the substance of the letter; she doesn't strike me as a future OAP. I know a good many septuagenarian-pluses, and just suspect she might not get there; no value judgment implied. After all, there's no particular virtue in denying oneself pleasures simply in order to spend another five years on respirators in the dreariest OP home of Weston-super-Mare (paraphrasing Rumpole).

Mr Venn... If her BF is 31 years older... she only has to get to 60 or so for it to matter... not all the way to 90+. But i see you point clearly.

Probably the best reason to date someone over 50 is there is absolutely zero commitment or obligation. When you feel the pressure, don't mope or carp, just jump up and say you're too old, and leave. Don't even think about marrying us. Leaving brusquely, keeps the old person free to be passed around to the next comer.

Mr Chairman - Perhaps I was influenced by Tracy Partridge.

Hmm, Supreme Ruler, in a couple short years I will be over 50, and do hope to be in a situation involving commitment, although obligation sounds a tad tedious.

Hunter, who says she'll be comfortable.
No mention this guy has got money.
Could be worse fates? Well, ain't that just the sweetest prospect for a girl?

My fault. She didn't even ask should she stay with him. All she asked is how she could become his primary.
Poison all the other women.
Act really nonchalant, like, me, wanting to be your primary. Couldn't give a toss. Then he'll worry why you don't want to be his primary and make you his primary.
Still. Poisoning the other women. No chance for any comeback.

Hunter @72
I have come to the conclusion that the old man in L1 is likely a professor of literature (or French, or poetry, etc) in a large university in a large city. He has serious game, never sleeping with a student, but charming them for 4 years and then sleeping with them after they graduate. Note that this is what hapened to LW1, and this is why there are hundreds of young, beautiful "conquests" around.

NAGGING - Don't bank on it lasting (banking on any relationship lasting is hubris anyway, but especially in your situation). Have fun with it while you can, then bail. Don't end up the widow of a gnarly old perv

Hunter, I don't assume anything. Where would this man have time to work, he's been so busy knocking off women. And Generic knows as much of this man's wealth as you or I do.
Is she in love, or just caught in his little game of holding his conquests in her face.
He's not the wrong age. For a woman in her 40s up, he'd be the right age. They would be peers. He wouldn't be able to con her so easily.
The power dynamic would be equal then.
Let this sort of situation be a lesson to fathers of daughters. Father your girls right and they won't go looking to much older men as a replacement father later on.

So Hunter. She is with him for 20 yrs. She's in her 20s and 30s, the peak time for a woman's sexual and creative life-
His peak, long gone.
But yes. Let's just see another young woman sacrificed to the ego needs of another middle aged man.

Ms Lava - I'll give you an Austenian example to further your argument. You doubtless recall the indignation of Marianne Dashwood when she finally gets the point of the jokes between Sir John Middleton and Mrs Jennings about herself and Colonel Brandon. It took her so long because she could not conceive of anyone thinking that the Colonel (at thirty-five) could have anything to do with matrimony (especially as she blew up a minor twinge caused by a sharp wind into full-blown infirmity). Mrs Dashwood can't quite agree with the idea that a man several years her junior is at death's door, and Elinor points out that perhaps thirty-five and seventeen ought not to have much to do with matrimony together.

As it's not entirely clear whether you're just addressing this letter or generalizing, could you do a quick whip-around of what difference it would make if any to change the gender of LW, BF, both, BF's orientation to bi? It's just that I can imagine multiple different responses from you if a detail or two were tweaked. (It would actually improve the letter a good deal if LW were male and Lothario's first male love interest, wouldn't it?)

Lava-
Don't take it as we boys are grouping against you, but I have noticed this week that despite saying you "don't assume anything" (@81) you know exactly how this filthy old man is operating as he steals yet another young woman's pure, romantic, innocent soul.
You also seem to go beyond the case at hand and tend to describe any older man-younger woman relationships as abusive because of the predatory nature of older men.

This is how your comments come across for me this week. Care to clarify your position/s?

As lovers, NBD. But if a 50+ woman was telling a 20 something man that she was in love, serious about a long term relationship, it would be pretty shitty of her, knowing (as she should) that he could be passing up experiences he could be having in his youth that he may regret and resent her for it later. "Wake up Maggie" comes to mind and I hate that song and Rod Stewarts voice and now they are both stuck in my head

Not passing up experiences he would regret, but he would regret passing up the experiences

What are you morons, no scratch that, men not seeing?
A young person , male or female, in their early 20s , yes- I do think they need protecting. Culturally.
I don't think this tool is some filthy old man, just another child / man, who a young woman wouldn't really have the maturity to see clearly.
He is 31 yrs older than her. Yuk. Really, what say22 yr old woman wants to even look at a man in his 50s body, let alone fuck it? She is caught by something. Not thinking straight. Not noticing that it's her youth she is sacrificing. What if she wants children?

Equally, if it was a 31 yr age gap for a young man, I would feel the same.

It is an unequal dynamic because of the age gap. Because of life experience.
Yet our culture has no problems with it. Especially with young women getting with much older men.

Hunter, overwhelming seductive powers of older men? You'd like that to be the truth, Eh? But it isn't.
Paternalistic?
I remember being a young woman seduced by a man only 7 yrs or so older, and yes, the power dynamic was unequal from the start. I never ever got a foot hold in that relationship.
It was that relationship that helped me realize I was looking for a father figure, not an equal partner. So, I did five yrs of therapy with an older man, my surrogate dad - and healed some hole in me.

Zbot- I agree that all this love stuff can be deceptive and is there to hide the real motive. But by reading the letter I'm not sure it was the filthy old man who initiated all this, or a reaction to something the young woman started.
Unfortunately there are older men who prey on young women with false promises of relationship and commitment. I suspect they view this as doing whatever it takes in order to get her to bed, which is wrong yet may be their only chance of getting there (at least in their minds.)
In those same liberal communities a woman in her 50's can be specific about sexual encounters with younger men, and is much more likely to get what she's looking for without any of her partner/s pulling a romantic/commitment drama.

"He tells me this relationship is different and he loves me in a way he hasn't loved anyone before"

This could be true, but he should still know better that to sell himself as long term exclusive potential. And cue -
"You lured me away from home, just to save you from being alone
You stole my heart and that's what really hurt"

Whether she initiated it or not, the onus is on the older, presumably wiser partner. And it seems I can't stop

"I suppose I could collect my books and get on back to school
Or steal my daddy's cue and make a living out of playing pool
Or find myself a rock and roll band that needs a helpin' hand
Oh Maggie I wish I'd never seen your face
You made a first-class fool out of me
But I'm as blind as a fool can be
You stole my heart but I love you anyway"

It seems like you're driven by a personal trauma that may have shaped your entire thinking about the issue. I'm sorry you went through this experience, but please try to see the issue from other angles.
People may look for all kind of experiences/relationships, not just the classic marriage and kids scenario. To some "an unequal dynamic because of the age gap", or other factors like social-economic status or work position, may be a huge turn on. If negotiated well in advance this kind of encounter can be a lot of fun.
I'm aware that this is not likely to be the situation in the letter mentioned here. Your comments seemed to deal entirely with older man picking vulnerable innocent young women. Your comment "Equally, if it was a 31 yr age gap for a young man, I would feel the same" is not very convincing, especially when you start comment #88 with "What are you morons, no scratch that, men..."

93 is for Lava

Seems to me that Lava is an ageist. She has had nothing good to say about those over 60, and seems to have a very warped view of them. She seem to view their bodies as disgusting, their minds as slipping, their sex lives as nonexistent, and that they're on the verge of incontinence and dependency. Shame on her! How is that any different from racism or misogyny?

FWIW, my partner of 10 years is 30 years older than I am. At 75, he is in better shape than most men half MY age. He's a farmer and works 12+ hours a day 7 days a week doing hard physical labor. (Could you manage that?) And he has a very active libido. He even got himself a p.a. peircing two years ago. We have remained hapily monogamous.

So Lava, you can keep your hateful ageist agenda to yourself. Yes, we all slow down some with age, but we don't suddenly cease to be human when we turn 60. Our genitals don't fall off or quit functioning at 60. And we sure as hell don't need diapers or nursing care from 60 on. Those things may happen to a minority, but most of us will end our lives without those experiences.

@95: LavaGirl is over 60 herself. There may be a lot going on here, but I doubt that blanket ageism is one of the things.

Younger women have been finding that type of man [we're assuming: financially secure, charismatic, etc] attractive since the dawn of time. Historically this type of relationship is probably more normal than two 20-somethings being together. Remember, we're the WEIRD ones, fighting against god and nature.

I'd also submit as evidence the hundereds of satisfied customers giving him five stars on SexYelp. While the power dynamic may be unavoidable, the fact that he's friends with many of them still reveal that he probably didn't take untoward advantage of that power. Sure, he probably fucked a bunch of them wielding it, but made good and basically left them happier for it. That he shared these exploits with LW at the time indicates he was probably honest with her about his interest/interactions with them and that all parties have had chances to compare notes and found nothing unwarranted. I suspect if more men were like this guy ["ethical sluts"], we wouldn't have nearly so many gender issues in our society

"Seems to me that Lava is an ageist. She has had nothing good to say about those over 60, and seems to have a very warped view of them."

I don't claim to speak for Lava (or anyone but myself, actually), but something about the first letter really did strike me as being "off".

Age difference in a relationship? Not problematic.

Age difference in a relationship, with the almost inevitable power imbalance? Not *necessarily* problematic, but worth being aware of and negotiating with caution.

Age difference in a relationship, with the almost inevitable power imbalance -- AND the younger partner feels that the older partner is a test she has to pass, and is not sure that she can make the cut amongst all the competition?
Yeah, something stinks about that.

@98 ehhh. i've had women say similar things to me, and i'm not older or more powerful (or even as financially well off or as attractive) as them. Many [women?] feel that they have to "prove they deserve the relationship" for reasons I don't really understand. It doesn't raise a red flag for me in this context.

@95 hahahahaha. Damn Yorb... tell us how you really feel. You're way off base. In no way is that Lava's agenda.

Well, I don't know if that's her intent, but it's the way she's coming across. And there is a long history of people hating what they are. Uncle Toms, self hating jews, closet cases raging against "the gay agenda," etc. But of course I have no idea what's really in her mind.

That said, yes, there are many, many red flags in that letter. The brain isn't fully formed until sometime in the mid to late 20s making it almost impossible for her to fully appriciate the situation she's in. It almost sounds like he started grooming her when she was a teen. Had Lava stuck to those arguments rather than denegrating those over 60 with ugly stereotypes, I might have even agreed with her. I doubt the LW is in a long term relationship.

i think i missed where Lava denigrated those over 60..... I dont see that anywhere... I just see her looking out for young women and hoping they are self-aware enough to avoid being someone else's fountain of youth at their own expense... (yes... that opinion is clouded by a healthy dose of "i don't trust the lot of 'em".... lol.... but.... its not a crazy nor uncommon opinion...

sounds like your geezer is a badass.... but... were you 22 when you got together? or perhaps over 35? (yes... i am teasing you with the chosen noun)

Chairman, do you like...
parfaits?

everybody likes parfaits. Parfait's gotta be the most delicious thing on the whole damn planet

So sorry Yorb, I upset your little self?
I'm a 63 yr old woman, whose own sex is still running real good,
so you know-
I'm not being ageist and you know I'm not. Are some men wilfully unable to comprehend words?

Ms Lava - Thank you for clarifying. I asked because I think it's possible to make a double-standard case here that OW/YM isn't abusive or sacrificial but that OM/YW is. Then again, this isn't my forte.

My now-in-his-mid-twenties Positively Last Boyfriend would not take kindly to your calling the male body in its fifties Yuk, but I'll take your word for it that that's the consensus among twenty-something women.

Oh Venn; you know I take poetic
Licence with my words. How would I know what young women think?
I just know when I was in my 20s, I wanted to be with men who had nice young bodies.

LavaGirl: I've dated men in their 20s and 30s who didn't have "nice" bodies, though they were young. My current boyfriend is 60 and has a bangin' bod. If you saw him from the chest down, you'd swear he was no older than 34-35.

Lots of people of all ages and orientations find people in their 50s (which is what the guy in this letter currently is) attractive. And it might have nothing to do with father issues, unresolved or otherwise, on the lw's part.

I'm with Hunter on this one: who cares why the lw is into her older boyfriend? She herself says that isn't the problem she's writing in about. Not everyone's every action is due to deep dark psychic pain from their past that needs uncovering, examining, and healing from.