Columns May 6, 2015 at 4:00 am

Teaching Moment


Dan's conflation issues when it comes to seduction efforts in the midst of major power/age imbalances are one of the areas I kind of want to smack him around about.

Sending dick picks to former HS students just after they hit legal is NOT OK.

In fact, pretty much any "waiting until s/he hits 18 and then trying to hit that" when you worked with someone as a child is just not OK.

(moral absolutism is my speciality).
@ 1, I agree. I also think he's not very understanding about her "feeling dirty" which might mean that he's never felt quite the way a young woman can feel, although I would think young men can have very similar feelings? Many years ago I remember being on the receiving end of unwanted sexual attention - just mild pestering really but very suggestive - but my response was to feel very ashamed, in fact I feel terribly humiliated remembering it. I don't think that this is a very unusual response. I also don't think it's a healthy reponse but I couldn't get my head to think any other way!
Ew indeed. BAFTA is a keeper, though.
I'm all kinds of libertine, but I'd still be grossed out by a teacher sexting me. That's just over the line, in my estimation, during or after educational interaction.

That said, I have certainly enjoyed a romp or twelve with a (1) former teacher of mine, and several teachers (none from any schools I ever attended, but certainly in the same age range as teachers who did).

All of which is to ultimately echo Dan's analysis. If you don't like it, be firm in telling him to knock it the fuck off.
She does need to be firm, but she shouldn't have to do it at all. It shouldn't be a 19 year old's responsibility to explain life to former teachers.
I will say that if he was interested, waiting for her to make a move is the only right answer. Then he probably gets a pass if he doesn't turn her down.
Smack Dan around @1?
Now hold on there. Disagree with Dan, your choice, but smack him around- I don't think so.
And I thought I came onto SL a bit to full on. I never, ever threatened Dan with physical violence.

Figuratively, LavaGirl. I prefer my violence to be entirely metaphorical.

BAFTA? Really? I'm sure the British Academy of Film and Television Arts will have lots to say about this acronym.
If KINK's girlfriend interrupted a still-hot fight in order to ask for a good spanking, I can't help wondering if maybe girlfriend might be egging him on, fight-wise, in order to get a more energetic spank. That -- being deliberately wound up on potentially spurious grounds in order to get something out of me -- is manipulative, and could get old fast.
Whooooaaaaaaaa.....! Like Dan and so may commenters to STOP's situation: Ewww!
Report that creep's unwanted sexual harrassment (dick pics?!?) to her high school's administration board pronto. STOP, feel free to also warn all your friends about this creep.
If he's upset because his little "secret" is out, well, tough shit.
Spot on again, Dan the Man---idiots like STOP's cyber stalking former high school teacher shouldn't be teaching.
Hmmm... Not saying the spanking can't be 100% healthy in this instance but I'd have a small concern that this is a possible form of emotional self harm by proxy.
I also think Dan was wayyy too easy on STOP's teacher. I agree with Grizzy @12 that this behavior should be reported right away. The girls should save the emails and texts since there will be an attempt to deny all this by the teacher and possibly also a "keep it quiet" attitude by the school.
@1 and @3 -- I agree with you that Dan is missing something here. My sister was in a similar situation with her boss at a small company with a nonexistent HR (well, HR was the boss's son, so...). Despite firmly telling him that his dick pics and advances were unwanted and asking him to stop, he continued. She understandably felt victimized and dirty. It may not be totally rational, but it's certainly not uncommon to feel dirty by being made the object of someone else's sexual desire/advances, especially when they're in a position of power.
It's simpler than most are making it. The former teacher thing is extra creep sauce on the creep cake, but the principle remains. She said NO, asshole. Put your dick away and leave her alone. Failure to do so could (and should) cost your dumb ass your career. That is all.
@9; a verbal
Threat is still a threat. But I accept your Sigh. Just don't look good for the healing professions.
#17 I am not in a "profession," Ms. Generalization. I'm posting snarky comments on a comment board.

Thanks for "accepting" my sigh. It was terribly concerned that it would always be an outcast.
All good then, Estarianne.
@16 is correct. The former teacher part is irrelevant - the relevant part is that he is sending dick pics (almost always in bad taste) and making other continued unwanted sexual advances. News Flash: yes, lots of "adult" men (>18 or even >21) find post-pubescent girls sexually attractive, and no, that's not a perversion. It's still not a perversion when they are 20 or 21. She had a crush (romantic, sexual attraction) on him; I'm sure that wasn't unnoticed, and one advance after everyone is legal is permissible; it's the refusal to take no which makes it sexual harrassment regardless of where and when they originally met.
KINK's letter reads like something from a CDD (Christian domestic discipline) web site.
Did anyone suggest it was a perversion, Finch?
Young women and young men in their sexual bloom are sexually attractive,
not hard for both sexes to notice.
Noticing is not the same as hitting on.
@11 is on the money. If she likes being spanked, don't make it so that pissing you off is the only way she gets what she wants--that sets up some incentives that are going to work out badly, trust me. If she needs a genuine element of "punishment" to get off on it, pick something else, like announcing that you hate being tickled and are likely to spank girlfriends who tickle you.
@3: That did also strike me as odd. Dan's been doing this for how many years, and he "can't understand" why someone would feel dirty as the recipient of unwanted dick pics from an older creep? He must get multiple letters a day from people who feel this way due to instances of unwanted sexualisation. Revulsion is a completely natural reaction.
Teacher "should" take no for an answer. And, certainly, STOP does not deserve to be harassed. However, I found myself re-reading her letter. Passive language. I am not convinced she told him to leave her alone. As a young lady, I found myself trying to side-step advances and make nice with pervy dudes, all in the name of being a Good Girl. I think she wants to "stay friends" in a situation where that is not possible.
#24 That has to do with Dan's experiences as a teen and how he interprets them.

The thing is, for women especially (but not solely), shame is a huge part of the sexualization of relationships with people in positions of trust. And "former" teacher or not, that is what he was. Teens get a lot of mixed messages about their bodies, and among them are things like "Adults find you attractive because your body looks adult" and "you shouldn't have sex" and "be responsible."

So when adults do approach them, it often gets interpreted by the teen as "Oh, I flirted with him, I brought that on myself."

And since the person is on a pedestal in the teen's mind ("respect your elders, "" mind your teacher") the teen perceives that they *caused* this great person to turn into a creep.

The "respect your elders" part is the harshest because we never really explain to kids that not all elders are nice people.

I will also point out that while he's no longer HER teacher, he is still A teacher, presumably. Teachers are supposed to understand this stuff, they teach it at teaching school. How many young women have to feel shame because he can't help himself around young women?

The most important thing to remember is that, although we remember ourselves as pretty danged brilliant as teens, teens have brains that are still developing. They don't have the same decision-making, impulse control, or crisis management abilities that adults have. Things don't settle until around 21.

So the campfire rule is all well and good, but the adult is not always in a position to prevent harm. Sometimes relationships like this harm kids just because they are kids and not ready for the complexities involved. This is why sex with students/very young former students is an ethical minefield for teachers, and professional ethics would frown pretty significantly in this whole nightmare.

Doing things with a pretty high probability of doing harm to your students/former students doesn't get you a teacher of the year medal.
Here's the letter, for easier reference:
Last summer, I reconnected with a high-school teacher I hadn't seen for a year. We first met when I was 15, and I had nothing but respect for him and his intelligence. I also had a crush on him for the next four years. Fast-forward a year. He is sexting me and sending dick pics and wants to hook up. He has told me he loves me. I feel violated and tricked, like he was supposed to be someone I could trust and he didn't respect that. Now I wonder how teachers really see underage high-school girls. This whole experience has made me feel dirty. Moreover, he has never respected that I have a boyfriend and that I want nothing to do with his advances. I met up with a former classmate, and she told me that this teacher and another teacher said similar things to her. Ew! Most former classmates of mine still believe him to be a respectable man and a great teacher. But I know him for what he really is, and when I think of it, I get so angry. How do I move on from this?

There are some things left out of this letter that would really be good to know. And there are multiple issues.
STOP had a schoolgirl crush on her high school teacher and a year after graduation she reconnected with him--she doesn't say how, and it's too bad, because it might help explain how a year after "reconnecting" he's sending her (presumably) unsolicited dick pics. Was this reconnection a chance meeting somewhere like at the park or the grocery store or the movie theater, or was it a reconnection through a social media platform like Facebook, in which case did one of these two people deliberately seek the other out? Did STOP send him a note saying she wanted to thank him for all the ways he influenced her? Did STOP drop by her old high school to say hello to several former teachers? Did they reconnect when she gave him a lap dance when he came to the strip club where she works as a dancer? How did this teacher have access to her phone number so he could sext her? What has been the nature of their interactions so that he thinks sending dick pics would be appreciated or reciprocated and he is telling her he "loves" her?

I'm not blaming STOP for this guy's behavior, but there's something she's not telling and I think that we're missing some vital context. No matter how big a creep, most high school teachers, having run into a former student one year out of high school wouldn't think to harass them by sexting, sending unasked-for dick pics, suggestions for hookups, and declarations of love. So there has to be some reason that he thinks his crude and manipulative advances might be accepted or even welcomed.
Additionally, she had apparently repeatedly tried to deflect him with "I have a boyfriend" ("he has never respected" that, which suggests she's tried to tell him to back off by telling him she is unavailable more than once, which says repeated harassment), which suggests that (a) this isn't a one-time accidental mixed signal mistake, but a repeated pattern of harassment and (b) STOP needs to learn how to more unambiguously shut down unwanted advances and to stop using the "I have a boyfriend" line and expecting men to understand that to mean that she's not going to welcome advances.
(STOP, if you're reading: if you aren't interested in someone, tell him so directly and explicitly ("I'm not interested"); don't drop little passive hints like saying "I have a boyfriend.")

At first tt sounded to me like although this guy is behaving in an extremely creepy--and stupidly crude--way, STOP may have led him--perhaps inadvertently--to assume that his sexual advances had a fair shot of being welcomed. But then STOP says that a former classmate said that this teacher and another teacher said similar things to her and I have to wonder some more things: when did this happen to the former classmate: was it when she was in high school or had she also graduated? If the former teacher is just a spectacular creep who views all his students as potential conquests who will become available the day after graduation, that's extremely yucky, but it's behavior limited to one particular creep; the fact that another teacher is also doing it suggests a strange culture of predation and grooming going on among multiple teachers in that school. Which suggests further investigation is warranted.

The bottom line is I can understand why STOP feels dirty: it's unsettling to think that a man you held as a role model, as a mentor, as in some in loco parentis way as a surrogate father, as a teacher, spent up to 4 years sizing you up, fantasizing about you when you were still a teenager, and seems only to have been waiting for the opportunity to come on like a full-on sleazebag. His skeeziness feels like it's rubbed itself on you. In the absence of compelling evidence that either this guy or his colleague have been hitting on current students, STOP should simply stop having anything to do with him--she should tell him not to contact her, that she's not interested, and she should block his number. But she might want to save the texts and pics, in case she hears about something more clearly inappropriate or illegal so she can bring them forth as evidence.

Like it or not, many people tend to view their former teachers as their teachers for a long time after they graduate from school, and this former teacher is behaving in a particularly gross and unsettling way.
Maybe STOP feels dirty because she fears she shares some responsibility by crushing on her teacher or being a 'tease'? I worked for a year running a computer lab in a high school when I was 27, and there was a 15 year girl/young woman whose crush on me was obvious, and whose charms were considerable - it was damn difficult to pretend I was unmoved. This is in no way to justify creepy unwanted sexting and dick pics of her former teacher, nor to blame her 'innocent' schoolgirl crush for his unwanted behavior now - but this might be the source of her sense of shame. Lastly, as Dan says.. 'I have a boyfriend' is not a rejection, its a statement of relationship status, and not even really code for 'monogamous' these days. As the other commenters said, be clear, direct, and take it to school admin if he persists. Don't feel bad that you were attracted to someone you later found out is a creep - that happens to pretty much everyone at some point.
I think Dan covered the basics on STOP's letter pretty well, but let me put it in simpler terms. There's a lot of overlap, but the questions come down to:
1. Did the teacher do anything wrong when STOP was his student?
2. Is the teacher doing anything wrong now?
3. What should STOP do?
4. Why does STOP feel dirty?

Did the teacher do anything wrong when STOP was his student? Maybe. It's true that he's off the hook legally, but like Dan says, if he was flirting and grooming and getting ready to become creepier later, then he's not really blameless.

Is the teacher doing anything wrong now? Most definitely. Again, it's not a legal issue, but once you've told a guy to stop coming on to you, he really should stop coming on to you. It does make sense to escalate the terms towards getting more and more clear. You start with "I have a boyfriend," then move to "I'm not at all interested; please stop," then go to blocking his every contact. It's not unusual for one party to think that friendship is possible while the creep is interpreting every overture of friendship as sexual interest, and I think that's what's going on here. It takes some figuring out and learning (and disappointment) when we're young before we get clear on the different steps.

What should STOP do? Block his texts and have nothing more to do with him. Also, keep reaching out to present and past students to make sure he's not overstepping more lines with them.

And now the part that I don't think Dan addressed adequately: Why does STOP feel dirty? It's a very natural human thing to conflate feeling bad because we're a victim with feeling bad because we're guilty. It's similarly easy to mix up wanting something to happen to causing it to happen and then to feel more mixed up when we learn that we didn't really want what we thought we wanted.

Let me give an example that has nothing to do with sex. When I was in school, I had an awful teacher. She went back and forth between yelling at students, ignoring them, getting sarcastic, playing favorites, giving inadequate instruction, setting students up to fail. I was somewhat aware of how horrible she was. I was also not entirely blameless. I cheated on a test once and often didn't do homework. Each time she lashed out at me, I'd feel bad which was natural enough, but I'd also feel guilty. It was hard for me to separate out that I should have been a better student but that I in no way caused her to be the absolute witch that she was and that I in no way deserved the treatment I got.

Look, STOP had a crush on this guy which means that she in some form wanted or thought she wanted sexual attention from him. Now she's got the attention, and it's not at all the way she imagined it. Now it's creepy and gross, and no wonder in all those mixed up feelings dirty is one of them.
Mr Monic - That might work out well in a weird way; she'd probably abuse the system and bring about the end of the relationship much sooner than would otherwise have happened, and I'll call that a good thing. I'd probably have him break up sooner (as in now) rather than later; it doesn't sound as if there's enough trust between them. And I don't know where Mr Savage gets the idea that LW enjoyed the spanking.
The teacher / student dynamic is always fraught. We're encouraged from early age to please our teachers and do what they say. Some students seek out favored teachers outside of the classroom (either while still in school or after graduation) because they (the students) want to hear that they're special, they were noticed, this admired person thinks that they're pretty great too. It's praise-seeking behavior.

Teachers who take advantage of this typical human psychological response in order to have sex with students or former students, regardless of whether those students are of legal age, are creeps if not downright predatory. They need to either grow better boundaries or find a different profession.

LW should approach the school leadership and let them know what's been going on. It might not be actionable, but it might get the guy a warning to back off.
Speaking as a former object of teacher's sexual attention, currently a professor, it seems to me that crushes on teachers are often connected to a student's feeling of validation as a student, and that actual sexual attention from teachers undermines that validation in ways that cause shame. For me, teacher crush began with: this teacher is smart, and also thinks I'm smart! This teacher is capable, and thinks I'm capable! Wow, I feel great about myself! (Certainly, as a teacher now I often get a crush on a smart/insightful/interesting students, and even though they are all above 20, I always keep that shit tightly locked inside my skull, don't even let it slip into facial expressions, let alone words or pictures). When said teacher began skeezing on me, that feeling of validation would collapse into shame: turns out I'm not smart, I just have boobs. How stupid I was to think I was smart. This happened over and over again until I passed the age that interests shitballs like this guy. Reaching thirty was wonderful, and I'd never go back.
@31: jinx!
@32, Ha! I'm with you, girl!

STOP, the truth is that teens have adult sex characteristics, and sometimes teachers are attracted to them. They also are trained to deal with it. The crushes are expected, the flirting is a given, they are supposed to be a safe place for you to practice that stuff without fear of getting in over your head.

If he turned into a creep, it is absolutely not your fault. Everything you did is age appropriate and part of his job.

And neither is the fact that at 19 you aren't able to overcome years of conditioning and be rude to a person in authority. That's pretty damned normal. Find ways to get rid of him that won't be sidetracked by that conditioning, even if he tries to use it. Blocking is a good idea, have your boyfriend answer the phone if he calls (not because your boyfriend is more assertive than you, but because he doesn't have a history with *this* person), and send him an e-mail or text asking him to stop contacting you completely.

I am ambivalent about reporting him. I think he is over the ethical line, but it is not a hard line, more "he should know better" than "he should be fired." If he continues his harassment it is an option.

can't we just encourage and instruct this woman to tell this teacher to stay away from her without playing into letting her feel like a 'victim'? its hardly news that some people (men and women) can become a bit aggressive in the pursuit of a prospective paramour, and the sooner she learns to deal with it, the better. its a bit delusional to turn this into moral outrage.
Oh, and STOP, the clear specific answer to your question about how teachers view their students is this: Most teachers note their students' crushes, smile to themselves, and go about their business. They think it's harmless the way little 5 year olds wanting to be ballerinas is darling and harmless. What your teacher did, while it does happen possibly more than any of us like to think, was weird and wrong. Even the idea that teachers respond but manage to keep their return feelings bottled up, again, while it certainly does happen, it isn't necessarily what always happens. It's perfectly possible for there to be teachers who notice their students growing up and then they date people their own age who were never in their classrooms.

(asympt, elma, Estarianne, nocute, strange, and others-- I'm enjoying your comments and learning from them, not responding individually, but glad you're all weighing in.)
@35 they are supposed to be a safe place for you to practice that stuff
Disagree. Please stop telling children that it's safe to "practice flirting" with adults.

I liked most of Dan's advice. I don't like the part about keeping the teacher's bad behavior a secret. That has led to problems in my culture. I would rather he speak about reasonable responses to bad sexual behavior, by the school and legal system.
#36, if one could ignore the definition of "position of trust" and pretend people who work with those who are at risk of exploitation have no responsibilities above ceasing their sexual advances when asked to, maybe that would be possible.

But it would also require pretending that power differentials don't actually impact the ability of a person to say "no."

Since evidence is pretty clear on the latter, we impose the extra responsibility noted in the former, because the LWs reaction is normal (she feels victimized because she was taught to say yes to this person and he used her inability to say no as an excuse to sexual harass her).

And #37. I think that's part of the training. We turn off our sex sensors around kids because that's what we're supposed to do when working with them. But occasionally it gets through, and that's when the adult has to pull up their big girl/boy pants and squash it to protect the child. And as was noted above, most teachers even of adults recognize that the student crush isn't really coming from the same place as peer attraction, and generally fizzles when the teacher is revealed as human, destroying the image of authority the teacher used to back up their instruction.

#38 Disagree with what? That flirting with teachers is normal behavior for adolescents experiencing new sexual urges?

Or that teachers are told to expect flirting because it is normal, age appropriate behavior and not a sign that said 14 year old is ready for an adult sexual relationship?

I'm not sure what you disagree with. Nobody has to tell the kids to flirt. That's what "normal behavior" means. I am telling STOP that she shouldn't feel shame for having a crush and possibly flirting some with someone who should have been able to squash his response.

Is that what you disagree with? You think adolescents should feel shame for doing things most adolescents do?
@25 & @29 +1 Really, my first thought was: why isn't he blocked on her social media and electronic devices?

...and yes, @28, "Please stop telling children that it's safe to "practice flirting" with adults." That.
I was being literal. I don't believe that it's safe for kids to practice flirting with adults. Lots of adults will take advantage. It should be lumped with all the other bad behavior that it's "normal" for kids to do. You can't get around having crushes or feelings feelings... but kids should be taught to exercise some good judgement when they act on their feelings eg flirting. I don't care whether you teach your kids with shame or reason. But they should be taught.
I did not say that it was safe to practice flirting with adults. I said it was *normal* to practice flirting with adults. Kids perceive them to be safe because we tell them that only creeps have sex with kids. Are we going to them tell them that their teachers might be creeps?

How are you going to teach your child not to flirt with adults? I'm curious now. These are people you need your kids to see as authority figures and you want to foster trust with them. What does that conversation sound like?

And no matter what you teach your child, they will sometimes make poor choices. That is how childhood works.

Using shame as a weapon to control emergent sexual behavior isn't very effective and leads to a lot of later misery. How do you tell a kid a) only creeps have sex with kids, b) on the other hand, if you flirt with someone they might not be able to help themselves whether they are a creep or not, and not expect them to develop conflicted emotions about their own sexuality?
@43: Developing conflicted emotions about their own sexuality is pretty normal, too...
And I think your brains are going to tie themselves in knots if you conflate what teachers learn about the range of normal adolescent behavior with what children are/should be taught about life. They are completely separate issues.

#44 Don't we want to limit those conflicts when we can?
@46: That would leave teenagers with nothing to do, except maybe learn stuff and take steps toward becoming functional adults, rather than messing up their lives in absurd ways that they're going to have to spend their 20s unraveling.

Sounds boring.

I can see where you might think this could be a slippery slope toward your becoming an abusing partner, but that fact that you asked about that says that it's unlikely that you would make that transition. What is a risk though is your not being able to distinguish a future disagreement from a bratty beg for play. Personally, I can't stand bratty behavior. I don't want to play with someone who is intentionally misbehaving. That would be reinforcing bad behavior. However, I can't say that it's wrong for you. What I can say is that you should talk with your partner and make sure that future bratty behavior is about not-real situations. BDSM should not be used to settle real life disputes, but if you both get off on role play and it's your ticket to fun, come up with a clear way for both partners to know that you're in a scene, and not seriously arguing. Likewise, if either party mistakes an actual argument for play, you need a safe word of sorts to let the other partner know that.
Kink's letter reminds me of an episode of The Big Bang Theory I rewatched a few days ago. Amy lied to Sheldon and they decide as her punishment she should be spanked:

Sheldon: Are you prepared to receive your punishment?

Amy: One second. I want to put on some music.

Sheldon: Why?

Amy: I don’t want to disturb the people next door while you discipline me.

Sheldon: Very well, then. Get over my knee. Let’s begin.

Amy: Oh, my.

Sheldon: Excuse me. You’re not supposed to be enjoying this.

Amy: Then maybe you should spank me harder.

Sheldon: Maybe I will.

Amy: Ooh!

Oh Sheldon, Who would have thought.

Young women can be very seductive, just by being young women.
Going to a convent school, I didn't have male teachers, so I don't know this story personally.
And young women fall in love all over the place. I fell in love with other girls, some of the nuns, The Beatles.
For male teachers, all that ripe flesh, must be a constant test.
Most high schools are co-ed. Why would being around all that young flesh be harder for men than women?

Recently there have been a surge of incidents involving female teachers and male students, including a couple in this area. The most famous case, I think, involved a woman in Washington. She went to prison, but married the student when she was released. I think they are still married 10 years later (he was 12 when they started).

@43: shame and sex, the Catholics got that together.
How do they talk to people learning to be teachers about this stuff? Cause I know when my kids went to the High public school, there was one teacher,
The Art Teacher, who had affairs with his students. He's still teaching, hasn't been caught. Very attractive man, too.

How to talk to young women about The power they got going? Hard one. Cause they should be able to feel their own beauty emerging- God damn, it doesn't last long.

Then some young women know full well the power they have, too,
and without life experiences to curb their Lolita type behaviour, I can imagine the trouble this could cause.
@52; call me sexist, Mr E, I'm giving you a pass, but some young women, to me, ripe young women- they have an allure that young men don't have. And I'm heterosexual.
Obviously it's a fraught area, for both sexes. The Teachers, I mean. Because some young men can be very attractive and seductive.
And the sexual energy between the students as well, stirring everybody up. It's a wonder any teaching or learning even goes on.
@54: I'm not Estarianne. And yeah, I know what testosterone does, which is the answer to the question in 52. But she's right that our cultural impression is based less on the totality of what's there, and more on what we choose to notice.
#54 I'm a Ms. And I don't see it. I think young men are very sexy. I've never had trouble shutting down my sex sensors around kids, but I definitely find young men more seductive than young women.

I will note two facts from developmental psychology though.

1) Girls mature sexually earlier than boys.
2) But alternatively, girls who are "early developers" among their peers tend to suffer psychologically, while boys who are early developers benefit.

Basically, society has made sexual development a minefield for girls in a way that it isn't for boys. Part of that is that girls are shamed for sexual behavior. Part of that is that girls are objectified for their sexual capability. Both of those issues surface in comments made here.

#53 Teacher colleges are not uniform, but every profession has its ethics. There is no situation in which a primary or secondary teacher is within ethical guidelines to sexualize their relationship with a student. That is a hard line in the sand (even if the student is >18). Most states have laws and guidelines around teacher ethics.

In higher education the lines are sometimes softer and teachers are sometimes left to learn for themselves just how ubiquitous the student crush is. But most colleges/universities have specific guidelines.

As for the tendency of students to form crushes and flirt, that is part of basic child development.
And my concern isn't sexism against men, but a double standard surrounding exploitation of girls vs. boys that leaves girls suffering more shame than necessary and boys internalizing their experiences because society brushes them off as non-events.
I know who you are MrE.
@43 Again, I object to your statement The crushes are expected, the flirting is a given, they are supposed to be a safe place for you to practice that stuff without fear of getting in over your head.
Teachers are "supposed" to teach their subject and enforce school rules. Ethically. Efficiently. That's it. Their purpose has absolutely nothing to do with molding students' character, much less providing a stand in for a suitable mate, to "practice" with. The former is the realm of parents and rabbis. I don't even know what you could mean by "practicing" crushes and flirting. You can't simulate the feeling of a crush. And flirting with someone you have no intentions of being sexual with sounds like manipulation.

I'm not sure why you object so strongly to lessons like "It's inappropriate to flirt with adults" or "It's normal to get crushes, but only appropriate to flirt when you feel ready to be sexual" or "Flirting is an invitation to be sexual, not a tool of manipulation or flattery" or "Kids should only practice sex and romance with other kids until they become adults". I don't think that this would result in more conflicted feelings about their sexuality, and the less kids offer sex to adults, the less adults will have sex with kids.

I also believe that adults should not have sex with kids, but in reality, many do anyway. I blame the pervasive idea that consent is synonymous with "they didn't say no".

And yeah, bright talented muscly young men are way more attractive than an admirable young woman.
Yeah I am a bit lost surrounding the idea of "practice flirting" - I mean, flirting is what your fellow classmates are for. Teachers can be referees to this but never can be participants. But again I'm confused by the statement so I am guessing I'm misinterpreting the comment....

Philophile. I said it was supposed to be safe. It is supposed to be safe. Schools should absolutely be a safe place for kids to be normal adolescents.

But where did I say anything about teaching adolescents that normal adolescent behavior is inherently safe? "Here, have at it, anything you do within these normal ranges is guaranteed not to cause you harm!" I should point out that I have two of my own, the oldest a young adult, so I have done this.

First we need to define flirting, I think. It pretty much can define any level of sexual behavior, from the most subtle non-verbal behavior to blatant sexual advances. The entire range isn't covered by the "age appropriate" level.

Most kids learn to flirt with adults very early. It is *not sexual. * The child is doing normal kid things, saying "I have a normal kid crush on you." Adults come in and say "you look like an adult when you do that, so I think you want sex." Then the child is at fault for being a child and "seducing" the adult.

This is not the same as hypersexualization or early sexualization. Overt sexual behavior is also pretty normal in older kids, but the motivation is different.

But the thing kids need to know is that if adults find them attractive and act on it, it is the adults who are doing wrong. They need to know how to advocate for their own bodies, even if an adult is an authority figure. As they get older, appropriate behavior changes. But when we consider talking to them about flirting or about safe behavior with adults, we need to be very careful not to sexualiize behavior that is not sexual to them.

Most students who flirt with their adult teachers do not want to have sex with their adult teachers.

Practice flirting. OK, you're 13. You have never had a boyfriend and the idea kind of scares you. The boys in your class all talk about sex all the time and you don't even want to go there. You have a teacher who you have an enormous crush on.

Basically, in fantasy and to some extent in interaction, you are trying the role on for size. The teacher is not available. He doesn't want to have sex with you, you're 13. So the crush and the flirting are ways to experience those sexual roles without leaving your comfort zone.

The safety is in trusting that the adult will not respond to the flirting. The non-participant assumption is what makes him the ideal candidate. To an adolescent.
Ok, I get what your thesis is. But here's the thing with that example - as a parent I would be horrified by this behavior; my freshly pubescent daughter exhibiting flirtatious behavior with grown men would set off alarms. I wouldn't call this normal behavior - I get it, to a quickly maturing adolescent girl the same age boy is immature and unsophisticated. But that normally played out (from my recollections) as girls crushing on older boys, like the seniors poaching the frosh. Sure there's a bit of that hot-for-teacher dynamic that you're calling out, but I give kids credit for recognizing its taboo nature (both boys and girls) so it's latent rather than acted upon.

But with all that said, as a parent I would be alarmed of a girl actively flirting with adult men.
Could someone else explain why "but but it's comfortable!" isn't a great response to "I'd like to see less sex between adults and minors"? Please?
I don't know what you're picturing, but how old is your daughter now?

Have you ever seen a 5 year old flirt with a grown man? (both boys and girls do this, by the way). Use the coy head toss, look up at him through her lashes... all body language for flirting. A boy has his "winning smile."

At what age do you see her doing this and say "OK, now I'm horrified.?"

Playing at relationships is part of being a kid. They explore their social and sexual roles by playing them out with their friends and the adults around them.

I can remember flirting with men I had crushes on. I was terrible at it, but I was conscious of myself and wanted their attention, and I used the body language I learned from those around me to try and get it.

I am betting you see it all the time and you don't classify it as sexual behavior because they are kids and you haven't noticed that what they are doing IS flirting. Even though you'd recognize it clearly on an adult doing the same things.

Most of their teachers will notice only because they see the pattern so often.

But if a teacher is a creep, then s/he'll see her behavior as if she was an adult. The filter is entirely different.

#65 Because most of the time it isn't comfortable for the minor?
Personally I know of 2 ~5 year old girls that expressed things sexually in the way you've just described, but both were products of sexual abuse. I can't make a leap to consider that normative behavior.

You see a 5 year old batting her eyelashes as "expressing things sexually?"
Go to YouTube and search "toddler flirting." You'll see numerous examples.
The one of the little boy flirting with minnie mouse is perfect.
The problem I see with KINK's partner is that she may not be keeping her kinks in the realm of fantasy. I'm not a BDSMer so feel free to set me straight but isn't it a bad idea to blur the lines between playing and fighting? If she gets off on him being actually angry at her while he is punishing her then isn't she going to want to start fights all the time and then suddenly become reasonable after she's been punished? I would steer way clear of this dynamic - unless of course he's kind of into it too. Then they just have to be careful not to end up like the Zimmermans...…
Agree entirely with @27, Dan, et al, and disagree with every stupid instinct we women ever have that makes us believe "I have a boyfriend" is a way to let men down politely. Particularly if he's a creep, "I have a boyfriend" just implies "... so we'll have to be discreet." Fuck politeness, we need to speak up definitively for ourselves.
Advice on STOP's situation is on target except for going to the school administration or school board. The minute that innuendo is released is the beginning of the end for that teacher's career and their life going forward. Seriously, it is no joke. In my community we have had several allegations against teachers. More of the allegations are proven false but the teacher is not allowed back into the classroom. The media is full of allegations against teachers by students who were angry or hurt because a teacher ignored them. The allegation must be confirmed- 100% true.
73BiDan-- Allow me to take that a step further. I call this the Law Of Escalating Communication. Not only do women (and plenty of men) tend to think that hinting and being unclear is a form of politeness, we tend to think that repetition is a form of being more clear. It's not. That's just being boring.

This applies to everything, not just unwanted sexual advances. I can remember turning down a friend's repeated invitations to her church activities with being busy over and over. She kept inviting me and arguing with me about why I should go, and I kept hedging. I was repeating but not escalating. Finally I told her that I never wanted to go. She continued. I told her that I never wanted to go and I wanted her to stop asking. She continued. I said through gritted teeth that I wanted her to stop asking. She continued. I said it loudly, and included some insults. She got all wounded-- AND SHE STOPPED. Bottom line is that I had to use different tones, different words; I had to escalate. I would have stopped taking her calls, but it didn't come to that.

Thus with the unwanted advance. There's actually nothing wrong with starting with I have a boyfriend-- but only use that once. Then go to:
Please stop asking.
No, I don't want to go out with you now or ever.
No dick pics. That's gross, disgusting, creepy, weird.
Keep away from me.
I'm getting a restraining order.

You have to escalate in some way each time, maybe in volume or strength of words. You also have to decide how many steps before you block all his calls and get that restraining order. In this case, his violations are so over the top, I'd go with only 2 or 3. With my (ex)friend and her church, I was willing to go with several more.
@73: As a guy, if I ask a woman out and she says "I have a boyfriend", I interpret that as a polite way of saying "I don't want to go out with YOU." As 75 says, it's a perfectly valid way of telling someone you don't want to go out with them, but if they're deliberately obtuse to it the first time, they'll be deliberately obtuse to it all subsequent times.
@76: I think that "I have a boyfriend" is frequently understood to be a polite way of saying someone isn't interested, and that many people act as you do and understand it to mean to stop all further advances. The issue as I see it is that women are socialized to not hurt anyone's feelings, and so resort to dodging and deflecting strategies like that (see Crinoline's example @75 in which she discusses the pushy friend who wanted her to attend church activities), and I think it's far more effective and empowering to be able to speak up for yourself in terms of what you like or don't. I don't mean you have to be rude, or even to necessarily always escalate your "no." But I think it's important to be able to couch your preferences and non-preferences in more honest language and to prioritize your own feelings. I don't think saying "I have a boyfriend" suggests " . . . so we have to be discreet" (unless someone chooses to take it that way), but I do think it shifts the reason for the rejection onto some external circumstance ("I'd love to go out with you, but unfortunately, I have this darned boyfriend, so I can't" as opposed to "I'm flattered that you asked me, but I'm really not interested in going out with you."), which allows the interested person to continue asking from time to time, thinking that maybe one of those times you'll have broken up with your boyfriend and may be ready to go out now.

I just finished teaching a class in which a beautiful young woman, aged 23, said she'd just stopped invoking "I have a boyfriend" and simply started saying, "thanks for asking, but I'm not interested," and she described how much more a sense of agency it gave her. It's possible to be polite but firm and to take ownership for your own preferences, something young women in our culture often have a hard time doing. I think it will serve STOP well in the long run to learn some more assertiveness. Somehow she's ended up on the receiving end of unwanted dick pics, sexually explicit texts, and come-ons from someone from whom she doesn't want them. I think perhaps her passivity may have contributed to this.
@Lemming [72] (Re: "If she gets off on him being actually angry at her while he is punishing her then isn't she going to want to start fights all the time and then suddenly become reasonable after she's been punished?")
Not really. (Certainly i don't think the fun of a spanking is worth the yucky awfulness of a bad argument. Ugh.) It sounds to me like the purpose the spanking served was to allow her (and maybe both of them, but it sounds like mostly her) to blow off some steam in a manner less destructive than yelling at him/each other and saying things she (or both of them) can't take back. His statement that their argument was more reasoned afterwards supports this, and her request that this happen more often suggests she understands this. There are other ways of attaining the same goal with which he may be more comfortable. (Hillwalking, sparring, going for a strenuous run, bicycling a hilly route, wrestling, doing calisthenics, etc.) I would project that what she needs is a physical outlet for the adrenaline flooding her system at the onset of an argument, and one that involves the other partner as opposed to separating and coming back. They are young, so this is a good time to figure out what they need in order to have more productive/less destructive disagreements, and it may well be that what she needs and what he needs don't match up. This is a good age at which to sort out these things, even if it's for the benefit of their next relationships. I think they are off to a good start, and should talk a little more about it, and remember that it doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing deal. Should they decide to sometimes use this method of tension reduction, if indeed it doesn't "play out well" as the LW thought it might not, they can always can the idea, either to try something else or to separate as a couple.
Regarding flirting "safely" with teachers: when I was in high school (during the mesozoic era), the drama teacher was the coolest, most fun-to-be-around, really-got-teenagers teacher at the school. He was also the object of a lot of girls' early flirtations with the art of flirting. They were trying out how to play with their emergent attractions. I was most definitely not flirting with him. For one thing, I had absolutely no confidence about my attractiveness quotient in those days (possibly because my attractiveness quotient was frighteningly low in those days--I was a classic late bloomer), and so would never dream of trying to flirt with anyone. But for the other thing, he was much more a surrogate father-figure to me, who was having a rough time getting along with my own father who seemed to eternally disapprove of everything about me. Mr. H---- liked me: thought I was funny, thought I was smart, thought I was a worthwhile person. He gave me a lot of much-needed validation and confidence in a completely non-sexual way, but that is a story for another time. He also had daughters exactly my age--daughters who were also students at the high school (and in his classes) at that time.

So anyway, I was hanging out in the studio theater one day and one of the girls who had a crush on him came by and flirted fairly obnoxiously--lots of bouncing breasts--with him and then left. He very mildly and without any hint of taking her flirtation seriously, flirted back briefly. When she had gone, I asked him about it: why she did it, why he put up with it and not only didn't shut it down, but seemed almost to encourage it. I'll never forget his answer. He said, "She wants to try out flirting, she wants to see if she's attractive to men, and she's chosen to try it out on a person that she knows is safe, that she knows will never actually take it as a real come-on, who will never try to hit on her. I am a safe person for her to cut her flirting teeth on and she trusts that."

We stayed in contact for a few years post-high school, and when I came into my own, attractiveness-wise, I remember him remarking on it in a positive, validating, non-creepy way. (We had a lunch date and I came by the high school to pick him up. He said, "you have found your style, haven't you? No; more than that: you've realized you're beautiful and now you're projecting it.") There wasn't a hint of flirtation in that moment, but it was nice external validation from someone I looked up to, and it really meant a lot to me.
I am not suggesting that all teachers can be trusted that way, or that that is a role that they should play. I do think that every kid, every teenager, or sooner or later, every young adult, learns one way or the other to get a sense of themselves as having some power to attract, and that there are worse ways to learn how to work with it than than by a safe mild flirtation with a trusted and trustworthy teacher.
Now I wonder how teachers really see underage high-school girls.

LW, given that you had a crush on this teacher for 4 years, you could just as easily lament the rampant sexualization of teachers by underage high-school girls.

Attraction happens, even when it shouldn't, but that's no reason to become disillusioned. As others have pointed out, attraction isn't a problem, it's how we handle it that counts.

It sounds like this guy behaved wonderfully in the teacher role and is failing miserably outside of it. You had idealized this guy in your youth, and now you're seeing the disappointing reality. There's a lesson here - be careful about idolizing people.

Back to the problem at hand, this guy is being way too pushy, possibly because he's manipulative, or possibly because he really is infatuated with you. You need to escalate your demands that he leave you alone, perhaps by threatening to file a restraining order if he doesn't (with the dick pics, you'd have no problem getting one).
he has never respected that I have a boyfriend and that I want nothing to do with his advances

Uh...if STOP has told her former teacher in no uncertain terms that she doesn't want him to contact her or send her dick pics or whatever, and he keeps doing it, he IS doing something illegal. That's harrassment.
@80: "LW, given that you had a crush on this teacher for 4 years, you could just as easily lament the rampant sexualization of teachers by underage high-school girls."

When did she say that it was a sexual crush? As many people have said, it was probably a "safe" crush. As evidenced by the fact that now he is sexually interested, she's skeeved out. If she had spent high school literally wanting to fuck him, she'd be keen to fuck him now.
RE: the teacher, his dick pics, and outing him......

By no means do I defend this dumbass teacher.... however, STOP should very seriously consider the consequences if she goes to authorities. In most states, he'll end up on the Sex Offender registry for something that was legal. Nevermind that it was legal, they'll find *something* to charge him with, convict him, imprison him (or probation for 10 years), force him into sex offender "treatment" (hahahha!! ROFLMAO, treatment........) and he'll forever have issues finding housing, employment, and social support.

I should know, I have numerous friends on that registry, including my husband who landed there as a result of three photos he didnt know were on his laptop,. We are *both* watched, he is barred from his minor child and our minor grandchild.

Is that reasonable? No, it's not; and STOP should very seriously consider the consequences if she chooses to expose his actions. Exposing him has lifelong consequences. It will also impact her for life if she brings this type of treatment down upon him if his actions were merely creepy and assholish.
Ms Cute - I think your optimum strategy, if you can bring it about, is to lose the socialization but maintain the perception of its continued existence, as I suspect that for some women the Socialization Pass is worth more than the potential benefit of not being socialized that way to begin with. (I could speculate that some of the negative feedback to Mr Savage's response to the first letter might have been based on his unusual failure to bestow and make a point of bestowing the Socialization Pass, but that would be a side point.)

Out of curiosity, why did you describe the young woman as "beautiful"? Was it just part of a habit of being descriptive when economically feasible, or was that adjective significant?

This probably will get drowned out, but I'll give it a go anyway. This is one area where I think the British habit of using the term "partner" instead of boyfriend or girlfriend shows to advantage, as it allows for the inference that the external circumstance isn't going to be changing. (There is also, of course, the considerable advantage of not bringing in one's orientation or at least acknowledge OS/SS status when it doesn't matter. Of course, IHAP doesn't solve the IHAB problem of appearing to support privileging monogamy, but it still seems a marginal improvement.) Coming from the SS perspective, I've always been grateful for the firmly-dismissed-but-without-prejudice air of using the Orientation Card to decline advances from women, in that it's plain that there's no point to continuing the suit or resuming it in future, while at the same time not having to imply any valuation at all either way. With men, it was always rather distressing; my usual method of coping was to emulate Mrs Weston at the ball at the Crown Inn (when solicited to dance by Mr Elton) and suggest someone better as a substitute. Happily, I had two or three friends who were usually single and were more conventionally attractive than I whom I could generally offer, in order to invite a flattering inference.
This guy is sending her pictures of his cock. One assumes some sort of intimate type discussion went down between her and him, or what, this just like sending out your business card, these days?
Please, get in touch if you ever need my services.
Ms Cute @79 - There is a dated feel to that story, although I think what sort depends on whether it was a girls' school or not. If so, it makes me wonder what Messrs Lloyd and Lowther might have been like had there been no Miss Brodie.
@BiDanFan: I can see that you quoted me, but I'm not otherwise sure how your comment relates to mine, nor am I interested in a boring debate that hinges entirely on the definitions of terms. So, I'll just recap my post with the hope of clearing up any confusion:

LW expressed disillusionment that teachers in general might be attracted to their students. I pointed out that the attraction can go both ways, and I suggested that attraction by itself isn't bad, it's how it's handled, or mishandled, that counts. I then pointed out that the guy handled himself well as her teacher, but very poorly as her ex-teacher, and I suggested she escalate with threats of a restraining order.
Mr. Ven, I'm all for tact and civility, even cordiality, and would never suggest that we do away with those virtues.
I used the adjective "beautiful," because in the case of this woman, it seemed appropriate. Let me try to explain. She's mesmerizingly beautiful. She undoubtedly gets unwelcome sexual attention (even if politely expressed) all the time. I know that many of the men who hit on her do so repeatedly, and may get less and less respectful as the attempts go on. She truly has been socialized to show deference to men, as well as to be pleasing and not too harsh--not just to men, but to everyone. She comes from a culture that emphasizes and upholds the good old double standard of behavior, and one in which women are valued for their amiability and are encouraged to bolster male ego at all times. And her family is very traditional.

So she's been fending off advances by the "I have a boyfriend" route for a long time now, even when she doesn't in fact, actually have a boyfriend at the given moment. She said she finally thought: why do I have to pretend that I have a boyfriend to justify not wanting to go out with this guy or let him hit on me obnoxiously and repeatedly? I think it has been a big feminist step forward for her, and knowing her, I'm sure she isn't rude or mean when she is straightforward in her rejection (by the way, switching to "I'm flattered but not interested" hasn't stopped the would-be Lotharios from repeating their come-ons).
Mr Ven: Regarding #79: Well I did say I went to high school in the mesozoic era, after all.

It happened a long time ago, but I don't know that it should be all that outdated.

I have 18-year-old students who occasionally flirt with me but it's not real flirting, like the way they would flirt with a girl their own age; it's flirting-lite. I don't take it as indicative of serious interest and I wouldn't think of responding to it.
Ms Cute - Well, that certainly explains your post, and more power to her. (I just couldn't tell from the original post; you are neither in the camp of reliably tough graders in this regard nor one of those inclined to woo-woo.) I quite see the situation as you describe it.

I could say more, but one of my negative cosmic vibrations is acting up. I'm getting extremely depressed over the future of SS lives. The liberal backlash that's going to come after marriage equality arrives (if it does) when that turns out not to constitute the be-all and end-all is going to be huge, huge, huge. I'm not sure I want to be around to see it.
Ms Cute @89 - The thread was just making me think wistfully that the days one could be young and call regularly at Cramond or go pose at the studio feel much farther in the past than just slightly before our time. In my area, I think I was one of the last people to have a youth of much freedom before all the carpools and lives filled with overly-organized activities and helicopter supervision became the fashion.

Oh, dear, I really *am* depressed.
I am a 42 year old woman and honestly never knew that "I have a boyfriend" could be interpreted as anything other than "Sorry, I'm not interested. Leave me alone." I thought it meant you're off the market, like saying "I'm married" does. I learn so much from all of you! (Although it does make me feel very naive!!!)
Maybe I'm missing something here, but what would be the grounds for going to the school? He didn't do anything while she was a student. He didn't do anything until she was over 19, at least. It's unclear whether her crush subsided on its own when they weren't in regular contact, or whether she maintained it--despite the boyfriend (it happens)--until some point after they got back in contact and she realized she just wasn't that into him once she got to know him outside the school setting.

Yes, he should stop sending her dick pics and cease any contact at all if that's what she has explicitly told him she wants. But she's an adult now and needs to do what adults do when there isn't reciprocal interest. Whether he was your teacher is irrelevant -- it doesn't make it any different than if he was a neighbor or some random guy you met on OK Cupid and dated a couple of times.

Say you're not interested. Cease any contact. Block him on social media. Stop talking about him to your friends or former classmates. You don't have to threaten his career, or worry about anyone else over the age of 18. Don't let him ruin your life, and don't ruin his. Let it go.
@73, 76,77,92 etc....
The last woman who told me 'I have a boyfriend'... I married her.

you want to let a guy down gently say 'I am flattered, but I know we are not a match'
If she has indicated that his sexual advances are not welcome, and he persists, she ought to file a complaint with the FCC. It's not legal to do what he's doing. Obscene phone calls are against the law, even to other adults.

She should also forward his charming communiques to the school board, his principal, and maybe even the local news. This creep sounds like he's shopping for meat while the girls are underage and hitting on them as soon as it's legal. Tell me, Dan: would you want someone treating YOUR kid that way?

@95: Weatherwacks, we have no idea what the nature of the relationship over the past year post-high school has been. He may have been fantasizing about her all through high school, but he never acted on those thoughts while she was his either his student or underage, Furthermore, it is highly unlikely that he ran into her in the grocery store post graduation, looked up her number, and started sending sexually explicit material to her out of the blue. There's a context here and she's left it out. How did he get her number to send her the dick pics in the first place?

He may well be a creep, but unless he's actually breaking either the law or the school rules, she has no grounds to report him to the school board, the principal, or the local news. Being labeled a sex offender can ruin his life and if he's done nothing illegal that's wrong. If our system wasn't so out of whack then sure; let him get chastised at school. But I'd be very careful who I got labeled that way.
About the guy with the spanking argument. My wife is submissive and we like rough sex in general. There have been occasions where we are having a big fight and she has encouraged me to punish her, or to take my anger out on her. Some of it is her own sexualized masochism, but I think she also knows that she is being a brat and intentionally picking fights over nothing and can't control herself so she wants me to control her instead.

It's a bit of a minefield to mix the two though. I don't want to misread her and wake the dragon when it's just a standard fight, and I also don't want to encourage her to 'act out' and cause genuine friction when she just wants to be angry-fucked. I love being dom but it's not an angry violent thing for me, more like primal, competent badassery. On a good day.
drjones; you guys sure sound like you have fun.
Primal, competent badassery. Not something a well respected feminist should respond to. Lucky I'm not one of those.
@95 "This creep sounds like he's shopping for meat while the girls are underage and hitting on them as soon as it's legal."

Yeah, so what? He wouldn't be the first guy to do that and won't be the last. And don't forget the "it's legal" part. This whole "grooming" thing might be relevant when STOP is still his student, but it matters not a whit once she's a legal adult and capable of deciding for herself who she wants to date.

Maybe I'm a little biased because my HS coach married one of his students and they're still married with children several decades later, but he was attracted to her when she was a student, she was attracted to him when she was a student (which we know STOP was) and then once she was no longer a student, they began dating. Not a big deal -- just two consenting adults with about a 5-year age difference.

STOP left out a whole lot of old the teacher old she now is....what the "reconnection" was the crush ended....why she's blabbing about it to her classmates....why he's declaring his love for her....for all we know, it's just that once she saw the teacher as a real person, and not as someone with any continuing power or influence over her, she finally saw him for who he really was--someone she didn't have a crush on anymore.

He may be just another guy sending dick pics....annoying, sad, and pathetic, and like half the guys on Tindr or OKC, but hardly someone who should have his life ruined over it.
@drjones: Jesus Christ that's hot. There have been a number of times where I've been in a serious argument, then she starts conceding to me, and suddenly I'm rock hard and I want to fuck her good. Unfortunately, I haven't been with a woman who's able flip that switch so easily.

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