LavaGirl, I really wonder what the point is of asking me questions and then insulting me for answering them?

No, wait, I know what the point is. Never mind.

Why can't the trans woman say in her ad or response : not original parts, or some other (better) great descriptive pronoun? Dan Savage World is so full of helpful discriptives, pronouns, etc., surely there must be a way for non cis not all the way done women to project themselves? Especially with all the non cis not all the way loving guys out there. How do they ask while being discreet and respectful? Some of us don't have that much time for endless "coffees" or really dislike hurting others feelings. When you put in your
ad, "height, weight, proportionate" aren't you telling fatties no? When you post "successful" aren't you telling poor people no? Same thing?
Is there a solution?

Mr Venn - I'm not sure I understand your post. Are you offering your support? If so, the answer is yes, please! Alas, after re-reading it a few times, I realized that I could be totally misunderstanding your meaning. Perhaps you could clarify?

Venn @ #204, fully agree.
As was cited in 'Moby Dick, the Lost Years,'
"'...and stirring his tea idly with a fin, then finally leaning back and blowing a baleen-scented huff of disgust, Mr Dick then leaned over the table, "See here, Oscar, what I'm reading in this interminable thread, it just won't answer. Yes, she pissed off the cis and het males and females, which, perhaps on Slog, is a bit of misfortune. To then lose the goodwill of the actual transpeople, well, that's just carelessness. Not bloody car keys, are they?
And by the way, Mr Wilde, you will attribute me, should you use that turn of phrase, which, having said it, I rather like, won't you? '
Wilde nodded energetically, though it may have been the new combination of laudanum and catharides that occupied his hip flask at the time."

203

I think you pretty much match my definition of attraction and sexual compatibility.

206

Was there a point in there or are you just jumping in the self congratulatory hot tub? Wait, I know the answer to that too.

Insulting you?
You said it wasn't an aesthetic choice/ then you say you were only responding to a specific situation. I call bullshit.
I think you are addicted to taking some sort of contrary position, no matter what the subject.
And that you are addicted to hearing your own voice, not really being part of a discussion. Cause you just IGNORE everybody.
My suggestion. Just to keep your A status ally card up to date; get a dating site profile and organize to have coffee with every disabled/ fat:/ etc etc person in America.

Estarianne @207 - I haven't insulted you as a person, I've criticized what you've said. I've also asked you many legitimate and relevant (to my mind) questions, and so far you've just ignored them.

Lava @212 - Love it!

Quoth Star @201:

The implication I have gotten so far is that I'm a hypocrite because there's all these people I wouldn't sleep with either. And I think it is a red herring because I have never really had a type, so things don't work like that for me. I've always dated men but that hasn't ever really even been a requirement.

Well, that's actually illuminating.

You seem to be pansexual, which is great and awesome and more power to you. But you also don't seem to recognize that most people aren't pansexual. Most of us have very definite sexual types, some of which fall under sexual orientation, and some of which don't. And since you don't have any experience with having a "type", you assume that they're exclusively motivated by bias/social conditioning/whatnot.

Umm, no. To paraphrase Freud, sometimes a type is just a type.

Star, at #106, as the guy said in Three Musketeers, the good one with Michael York, I was not talking to you, sir, I was talking about you.
This whole thread, you've been arguing for a particular position on online dating with the angry but empty determination of a methed-up hillbilly trying to kickstart a Schwinn Stingray, then fading away, like Ted Nugent presented with a draft card in '67, when presented with opposing evidence, much of it from the people that you're claiming to represent.. Do you wonder that you've lost the crowd?
You might check the Slog comment archives for a hermana of yours, who went by Marcelina. Not unlike yourself, she specialized in Fisher-Price-level word games, earnest dishonesty, mistaking repetition, fat starbursts of verbiage, and misinterpreted studies for proof. Unlike yourself, she eventually realized that everyone thought she was an asshole.
Here's a quick quiz -
Q. How many Estarianne's does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
A. Nobody cares.
Don't worry, you can return, down the line, with more of your Wisdom Pearls! In Predator 2, Gary Busey played an MIT grad! Re-invention is endless!
But for now, piss off.

@ 72 - "What is it about trans people that would make them less likely to be attractive than any other person of the gender you generally date? "

One of my main criteria when choosing sexual partners (probably the most decisive one, actually), is that I find any type of body modification a turn-off. It's not some sort of a moral judgment about those who have tattoos or piercings or whatever (many of my friends do), it's just that "natural" is what turns me on.

So if something as trivial as a nose piercing (or even dyed hair) is enough for my dick to go limp, imagine how it feels about a total body makeover.

A bit off the topic thread for everyone else, but...

@LavaGirl: How is your late autumn in Queensland? Here's a little update on me, musically: I did not get accepted into the masters program in Music Composition at my local University. After a few shed tears, however, I can at least look upon this rejection more objectively than I ever could have 30 years ago. Strange upon meeting today with the grad adviser---he had no idea what happened to my submitted portfolio from two months ago. Oops! I emailed one of the Comp professors to see if he still had my portfolio. I hope I get my collection of composed works from 2007-2014 back, and soon. Meanwhile, my grad adviser recommended I try applying again to other surrounding universities (stating that theirs certainly isn't the only one).
Nice to have him recommend that I keep applying for graduate studies in Composition, though, and that it definitely is my strength. I'm thinking that my technological skills and music writing computer program of 7+ years aren't up to the speed of my university, and maybe that I'm over age 30. Oh, well. It was worth a shot.
At least I'm playing piccolo & C flute in a local musical production, active in flute choir, and hope to join a community orchestra this fall...more later.

Okay-----back to this week's Savage Love comment thread in Car Talk.

Cat Brother @218....

May i suggest an alternate punchline to your joke?

A: one...and she doesnt even have to move...because they whole world revolves around her.

Estarianne - This crap... "I've always dated men but that hasn't ever really even been a requirement."

what a crock. If it "hasnt ever really been a requirement"... you would've date someone outside the het world at some point. Or you just enjoy making statements that sound supportive but ultimately mean nothing and can't be refuted because they are all in your head. Stop playing Angel's Advocate. No one needs your help. Its tedious. Take an actual position. Stop moving the target when someone calls you out. You obviously have the ability to reason when it comes to everyone else... so turn that inward instead....and ask yourself why you think inclusion at all costs is actually a good idea anyway.... Who the hell even WANTS a homogeneous world where we all date and fuck everyone with no types? boooooring.

And CatBro.... Marcelina was way more fun. She was mad and extreme... There is no fire in her much more vanilla current doppelganger.... SHE makes me want to set the phone down mid-conversation and go about my day..only to return to it later to find that she is still talking...and didnt notice i was gone....

@204 Vennominan and others...

I am just happy that others can understand the situation and aren't just flatly accusing cislesbians of transphobia or refusing to accept that they have a perspective. It's good to know people believe in being polite (everyone seems to agree it's rude to say "no transwomen" and worse to go out with a transwoman you aren't interested in), but also that people know that desire cannot be coerced. In some ways Estarianne helped because lots of people have been commenting on how impossible her "logic" is. I'm thankful to read so many intelligent comments (and funny ones!) where there isn't just silencing, crazy-making, and accusations of hatred.

It is happening all over queer and feminist communities. To have even a few strangers be receptive to hearing about this is amazing.

On the point of hearing from a trans*person about allyship, well, there are probably hundreds of articles on that, easily accessible. But be warned that many utilize the kind of "logic" promoted by Estarianne and demand the impossible. I've never seen so many people so quickly and happily walking on eggshells as I have in the last two-three years of demands for "allyship". I work in an environment where attempts to display and discuss things involving feminism or gender are often dismissed, denigrated, and ignored on grounds of being retrograde and transphobic, of being "cis". There are ahistorical and conservative aspects to recent trans*activism that is very much a product of life lived online--a life of avatar-making, immediate gratification, and hyper-suggestibility to viral PR. And the while the urgency for change is understood and welcomed it's coming at the price of refusing to acknowledge the history and realities of ciswomen's lives. So while I think it's important to listen to trans* people to understand their experiences and needs, it's also important to know that "allyship" is increasingly becoming, particularly for many LGBTQ people, an unattainable position. It's not so much that the requirements change constantly as there is no end to the ways in which we continue to "exclude" or "deny trans-identity"...and so much of it is directed at the failures of gay culture (which has some, for sure), ciswomen, and feminism.

Maybe I sound nuts, and surely this is a conversation that's not about school children just trying to live without feeling afraid, but I wanted to issue this perspective for those who've been open and willing to acknowledge the previous ones a few of us have expressed. Thank you. Seriously. We aren't even able to have conversations like this with most of the trans* community. The violent threats come out really quickly online and the stare-you-down/shout-you-down intimidation starts in real life. And I'm not even talking about the actual transphobic members of the community who deserve some ire. I'm talking about not even being allowed to discuss feminism without being shut down by someone concerned about trans* issues.

Brother Cat

@ 166 “Dan pointed out the difference (elsewhere) between drag queens and men who have or are transitioning to female, and I think a lot of people who don't have a lot of exposure to the trans population imagine one as the other.”
Thanks for pointing this out. Even when I go out in my ordinary middle age lady look some may classify me as a “drag queen.”

“Anyone here with a penis, fucked a trans pussy (not sure what the official term is, don't care but so much), and if so, what was the sensation like?”
Most reviewers report great similarities. Flavor and aroma may differ. Or not. In any case, I’m sure you ‘re also fully aware that there are some alternatives to strict piv.

@186 “How common is it for someone to go on a date, even a coffee one, with a transwoman, and think the whole time that they were with a cis? Has this happened to anyone here?”

It’s hard to tell whether you mean the person going on a date already knows the other is trans but will forget it half way through because the transperson is actually so natural and feminine and cute. I have no answer for this, but if the question is pure “passability” then you may be surprised to know how many passable transwomen there are out there. Some of them don’t even take hormones nor have gone through any body modifications. OK, maybe facial hair removal. But you couldn't tell... does that scare you a bit?

@186: "How common is it for someone to go on a date, even a coffee one, with a transwoman, and think the whole time that they were with a cis? Has this happened to anyone here?"

*raises hand*

Not a "coffee date", a "hooked up at a club" "date." But yeah, she completely passed and it was a total surprise to discover she had a penis.

Oh, and I don't have a penis, but I have fooled around with a (different) trans woman with a vagina and I couldn't tell much difference.

CatB; I hope you write down your routines somewhere, and copyright
them.
Even when you're kicking someone up the arse, you crack me up.

Bi and CMD, thanks for the input. Not my bailiwick, so good to get real-deal info.
As stated, science is something else. Like, wow, man.

@Jocass. We're with you sister.

Maybe that's it.
A Trans woman is a woman. But she ain't a Sister. The memories of old, still linger.

Good, Good, Grizelda. I'd love to hear your work. Hope you're heading towards recording something?
Sorry re the course. All these tests just sent to make us better warriors.
Hope the work turns up. Worrying.
Autumn is nice and cold mornings and evenings, then mostly beautifully warm days. Today a cold wind about. Brisk.

Right, herrbrahms. Where the hell did you come from?
I don't think its true nobody wants to fuck trans people.. Some peoples erotic bent goes there.
Yes. Sex, is no longer imposed, on western women, much, in some places..
And those of us who have that right, treasure it.
And yes, sex is a privilege.
Nice summary.

Ms Jibe - I could have provided a fairly long post comparing this situation to the time Ms Winfrey decreed that there was No Good Reason for gay men not to commit to bi men and making a few other points in support of you and Ms Cass, but don't want to distract from her flow.

Ms Cass - I was being a bit more particular; we've had a couple of trans participants on the thread opining about profiles and dates, and I'd have been interested in their perspective on LW's prioritizing remaining an ally, and their personal views about allyship. I agree with you about recent trends and eggshells, and on a similar line to yours have half suspected that we are headed for a world where exclusive homosexuality is going to be pushed out from under the (LG)BTetc. umbrella. But it can wait; I really don't want to divert attention.

Every sexually mature human, has to keep their own erotic flame going.
One' s erotic life withers if there is
A need to bully or coerce. And yes, some people miss out. Lots of people miss out.
Lots of people miss out on food, as well.
Living life fully, best way to fire up those energies, and then others will be attracted.

@herrbrahms: Thanks for that; it's a good summary.

People seem to be addressing the conflict of 3 (sex not being a right, but still being a need) by deciding whether or not the frustrated is in a demographic they like (or pretend to like, as an in-group status symbol). Tribalism isn't a very good substitute for ethics, but it is a very easy one, I guess.

It's doubtless very unpleasant to be in one of the demographics that almost nobody wants to date, but so what? The only way to fix that is to coerce people into dating them who don't want to--a redistribution of sexual wealth, so to speak--and there are good reasons not to do that, and not to tolerate anyone even suggesting it, because nothing good has ever come of steps in that direction. Even if the people who'd benefit seem like Us and the people who'd be having sex they didn't consent to are Them.

Herr @ 234 - It's a tricky thing. The only exposure a lot of us have had (that we know of) to transwomen is via the media, which as noted frequently conflates them with drag queens. If drag queens aren't your bag, then you'd say, no, of course I don't want to date someone like that. My first exposure to a transwoman was Jeffrey Tambor on Hill Street Blues, so, bear with me here.
On this thread, transwomen have been presented (sometimes) as, more or less, indistinguishable from cis women. Well, if I couldn't tell the difference, unless she tells me....It's just a bit hard for me to wrap my head around, dealing with human bodies as much as I do, that a trans female body might be essentially the same, not just in the genitals, but in, say, the hip area. I work on a lot of asses, male and female, and the structural differences are pretty stark, especially for an Ass Appreciator like myself.
Does this area morph, with hormonal treatments?

@238: "On this thread, transwomen have been presented (sometimes) as, more or less, indistinguishable from cis women."

It seems like an example of a common kind of error, once tribal signaling becomes too important. Here's an essay on the same phenomenon on the right, where it's--if anything--even more common.

@231 LavaGirl: My biggest challenge is getting my music out there and recorded.
I feel so humble----nothing like dedicating oneself to a bunch of years in college to find out in the real world later what you still don't know.
There are other nice universities in my region to pursue a masters degree, but ironic how the one within 3 walking blocks of my home where I did my undergrad studies turned me down. Obviously, they want new blood (well under age 50+). I heard back from my Comp professor and he apologized for not having returned my portfolio to my grad adviser. I hope to pick up my portfolio this morning. It will be interesting to read the comments from the reviewing faculty.
Your autumn season sounds beautiful where you are.

@245: For all I know, it already exists, but if it doesn't, I'd be surprised if the technology to do that doesn't happen in our lifetimes. I'm told a transwoman who's basically indistinguishable from a cis woman already exists, though apparently trans men's options lag behind, since the project is more complicated.

But I suspect both of these conditions are temporary. Rutherford made his comment that atomic energy extraction would never be realized... less than 24 hours before Leo Szilard got the chain reaction to work.

#240, was going to say something similar about the aforementioned Belladonna. She has what might well be described as a somewhat boyish face, relatively small breasts...and dat ass.
If there are transwomen of similar proportions, I guess I'm more broadminded than I thought.

@232

3. Sex is not a right, but a privilege.

I wonder if this is something (decent) dudes have an easier time understanding, because we have to internalize it to avoid being a raging, entitled asshole. (I've noticed that the "you have to date trans people" arguments seem to come primarily from the ladies, both straight and gay.) I actually remember repeating stuff like this to myself as a teenager:

1. You are not entitled to sex.
2. It's possible no one will ever have sex with you. You have to be OK with that.
3. At no point does anyone owe you sex, no matter what you do for her.
4. Scholastic or sports achievements still don't entitle you to sex. Sex is not a prize to be won.

Etc. So the notion of anyone else being entitled to sex, no matter how marginalized, runs counter to the mantra I repeatedly beat myself over the head with.

All this talk about hips&asses makes me, a very narrow-hipped cis woman feel bad.

Ginnie, you have some agency in this matter. Two movements to become best buds with -
Romanian deadlifts
Goblet squats
Hip bones come from which parents you pick. The shape your ass assumes is, to a large extent, up to you. Though as mentioned, athletic development manifests differently between the genders.

@herrbrahms: eh, is that a hint that my problem is not that bad? I already know it isn't.

@Cat Brother: thanks for the tips.

Ginnie.... i love narrow hipped women. and small breasts....

on a different note... one of the things that turns me on the MOST is when my partner gets really wet just from me being near her.... and i discover it when i finally slide my hand down her thighs... correct me if i am wrong...but there is as yet no chance of this in a transwoman.....right?

Chairman,
apparently the prostate can produce some amount of lubrication when aroused, and its a smaller range of self lubrication than cis women.

I believe lube is necessary though for penetration. At least for a majority of peoples comfort.

on a different note... one of the things that turns me on the MOST is when my partner gets really wet just from me being near her.... and i discover it when i finally slide my hand down her thighs.

Oh, yeah.

I think this particular point of arousal is learned, though. Her letting me slide my hand between her thighs + sopping wet vagina = totally getting laid. The Pavlovian conditioning is strong. I think were I with a post-op transwoman, there would just be some other indication of imminent sex that would turn me on just as much. E.g., my wife has a look that immediately gets me going, because that look means she wants to jump my bones.

@Lava Girl (#230)---YES! The memories still linger and the behavior suspiciously familiar!

@Vennominon (#235)--I feel you. At the same time I'm not sure it can wait, which is why I wrote so much. I'm not sure it's diverting attention, either. Cislesbians are half this particular situation. And even just in comparison to the various conversations flowing about surgi-vaginal moisture and tribalism I'd say it's on-point. Though I do understand the desire to solicit information from the very people at issue in the discussion.
NOW ON TO THE FUN PART!
@Chairman #253...surgically made genitals do not get wet. Maybe there's a chance she'd tingle since it's made from the same nerve endings that were on the penis (it's essentially an inversion and ends up like a tube or a pocket). But no wetness. And honestly I'd be worried if the medical industry were concerned about transwomen's vaginal moisture. That'd mean we were like, days away from actually living in the Handmaid's Tale.
Variously:
--There are websites where one can purchase menstruation kits (fake blood capsules and things) so the not-really vulva and vagina can "bleed"...
--Bottom surgery for transwomen is less common than assumed and reported.
--The puberty thing is important for many people. Hormone blockers early enough will prevent certain secondary sex characteristics from happening at all. Hormones then get added. If either or both are stopped some things will return to their previous state. Both cause some level of irreversible change.
--Transmen sometimes have an enlarged clitoris that functions like a micropenis. Kind of like the one that wrestler, Chynna, had. I know some of y'all have seen it. The magic of hormones.
--As for ass-morphing, all I can say is that I've seen transmen with these overtly mom jeans "lady" butts...they're like the transman's "adam's apple" giveaway. And, personally, some of the juiciest asses I've ever seen belonged to "cishet" white men. What sports or exercises get that lifted, but still jiggling and juicy, quality? Gay butts always have a similar, sculpted quality because of the gym and don't jiggle like a lot of ladies and straight guys.

Quite possibly one of the best things I've ever read:
"On this thread, transwomen have been presented (sometimes) as, more or less, indistinguishable from cis women." If you don't know any, maybe google around and see what a lot of lesbian transwomen look like. There are a lot of them in their 20s who look like skinny, awkward, plain girls. Lots of them in STEM jobs and the videogame world. The older lesbian transwomen are often the ones who were the most stereotypically masculine (Bruce Jenner types) and often bear no resemblance to women whatsoever.

Grizelda; do it. Send this new guy your score. Mr Herrbrahms. Get your stuff out there.

#257 Jocass' - to your question on what gives an ass that 'lifted' quality, the two aforementioned exercises are a good place to start. Two workout days a week (at least), one of them emphasize a variety of deadlift, the other emphasize a variety of squat, add on some variety of lunge, or using just one leg on the leg press, for time, lights that sucker up like a magnesium flare.
Rare to find someone who's ass is in shape, the rest of them isn't. Best proof against future low back pain, also.
But as Dan mentioned years ago, in response to one of those common asks from girls, 'Does my boyfriend wanting to fuck my ass mean he's secretly gay?', boy-ass, especially when developed, looks different than girl-ass. For many men, myself among them, the sight of a toned female ass, jutting out far enough to serve drinks on, "...a springboard, to better things..." especially paired with a small waist, has practically drug-like effects.
What Herr and I were saying was, we find it hard to believe that someone born with a Y chromosome can achieve this....architecture, but we're willing to be persuaded. It's one of the strong reasons that we are attracted to cis women, and thus a point of contention with those saying that in precluding transwomen from our dating profiles, we were being close-minded or whatever.
Jibe and co are of course welcome to chime in with their own preferences regarding the female form.
Thanks for the kind words above, but didn't think that was my best sentence in this somewhat tumultuous thread.

@259 - This is the best "springboard" ass I've ever seen, and it's quite definitely masculine.

http://www.katanafatale.tumblr.com/post/…

I would have just posted the picture, if I could...

Whenever a trans woman has joined the club, she will not have been a woman all her life, like a Cis woman has.
Other oppressive forces probably occurred, just not that one.
Of course a trans woman can become a sister, it just has to be earned.

Star; just like you, I crash landed on SL. Also, just like you, I got my arse kicked.
And still get it kicked.
I enjoy your energy.

No doubt, that's a well-built tuchis, and men's glutes can and do stick out with conditioning, but men's glutes tend to be narrower, no wider than the hips, 'he's got an ass so small he has to keep a hard-on to keep his pants up.' Female glutes don't just go back, but out to the sides as well, the distinctive apple shape.
You can't always tell, seeing a girl walk around in jeans, sometimes it just flares open, like a beautiful flower, when they're kneeling or (especially) on all fours ('The Stealth Ass.')
So, full marks to that matador for developing his hips, but if you took pics from 360 degrees, we (ostensible) straight guys wouldn't want to fuck it. Don't blame anyone else who wants to, of course.

The advice to not post negative preferences in dating ads is TERRIBLE. Why? Because doing so is HONEST and UPFRONT. Ask yourself this: Will it hurt my feelings more to read 'no trans' in the ad? Or for me to converse with and then meet up with this person, only to find out after all that time and effort and hope that they're not attracted to transfolk, and they didn't say anything before out of "politeness"? Would you rather have the tiny sting of a vaccination shot now or the complete misery of a full-blown illness later?

And no, it's not narrow-minded for someone to have dating preferences. Attraction and arousal are as irrational as taste in foods. They simply are. You cannot force yourself to be physically attracted to someone any more than you can force a physical attraction to go away. I am outspokenly pro-trans, I've argued with many idiots about their insistence it's just someone "choosing" to be another gender, and I still feel this way. It is not intolerance for someone to feel physical disgust at the idea of sex or intimacy with a body they have no physical attraction to. Not getting aroused by someone is not the same as hating them as a person.

@265: I'm a little surprised that transpeople are apparently not disclosing their trans status on their dating profiles. I would think it a good idea to front all your potential deal-breaker characteristics right away, to save everyone some time.

One of my dealbreakers when I was single was women with kids. (Now that I'm a father, I imagine I would feel differently.) But I never needed to say "no single moms" on my profile, because the single moms fronted their kids on their own profiles. So if I were contacted by a single mom, it would take ten seconds to read her profile before learning I wasn't interested, and I just wouldn't respond.

If a large portion of single moms were hiding their kids, and if enough of them were meeting up with me before bringing up their children, then I imagine I might have said "no single moms" on my profile. I'd just be surprised that I needed to do so.

@NAA - It's so interesting. We all have preferences as to the type of person we are interested in finding/marrying/fucking. Like you, I would not really be interested in marrying/fucking a trans person, much like (as a gay guy) I would not be interested in marrying/fucking a woman.

But there are easy ways to communicate this preference. When I'm making online profiles, I will generally say something like "I'm mainly interested in other gay guys around my age and height" or something like that. I won't say "no old dudes or dwarves." Because that would make me sound like a jerk.

One time, I actually did get a message from a transguy. I wasn't sexually attracted to him, but I chatted with him and we ended up meeting for beers several times and became casual friends. I would hope that a transperson would identify as such, much as I identify as a cis gay guy and therefore do not receive tons of messages from women.

The worst thing that could ever happen to you is that a transperson who didn't make that clear on his/her profile (which, really, is not ideal oh their part) contacts you, you meet, and then you tell them that you aren't interested in transpeople. If the person was deeply offended by this, it's on them to be clearer in their profile. This may happen to you once or twice in your entire life on earth, realistically, or (more likely) not at all.

There's never a reason to put "no x/y/z people" in your profile.

@257 Jocass'
Care to elaborate on… “The older lesbian transwomen are often the ones who were the most stereotypically masculine (Bruce Jenner types) and often bear no resemblance to women whatsoever?”

Not sure I understand if this is your own personal observation, or maybe a comment in regards to the way this particular segment of population, “older lesbian transwomen,” is being viewed by the public. Thanks

@winger
Your comment is too sensible for this discussion.

I agree that in a perfect world, the etiquette would be that the person with the dealbreaker would advertise it openly on her profile to filter responses. But I'm a little surprised so few here realize what world we actually live in. Maybe this is me being clueless about dating sites, but aren't people on there using their real names?

If a trans person -- particularly a trans woman, who are disproportionately the victims of the violence against trans people -- is able to pass in her everyday life, putting 'hey, I'm a trans woman!' out on the internet anywhere attached to her name and picture -- even just first name -- is dangerous. Someone sees her there, then meets her in real life and outs her; someone sees her there, then happens to meet her in real life and bashes her. Not to mention that there are real anti-trans folks on the internet and they doxx.

Expecting disclosure over messaging before coffee is one thing, but expecting trans people to post that on their profile for any member to see doesn't seem realistic or kind.

@Cat: OK, Jocass', I'm starting to get on board with your idea that she's a paid shill or something, getting an image of a ship with a gaping hole in the side

???

I'm getting the image of a person who approaches these issues with far more intelligence and far less judgment than the majority of people commenting here these days.

@Estarianne, I really appreciate your comments, and that you are able to comfortably inhabit the grey areas that less thoughtful people find so intolerable.

. Suddenly, I'm feeling like I'm back at Mass, hearing the Sunday Sermon.

Another etiquette question, based in real life : we currently have a closeted lesbian L at work who has aggressively been pursuing another coworker C, without telling the name of her game.

L is from another department. L has befriended C by faking a sudden interest for our department - although I best know L for having nothing but disdain for anything that is not her own department. C, who is kind hearted, reacted to L's complaints about her sadness by inviting her to our department's common room, a place where we hang out and have coffee and sometimes seriously work together. Our team works well and we need that welcoming space to relax and make jokes, without snitches listening and stirring shit with coworkers from all departments. Unbeknownst to newbie C, L is a major shit stirrer.

Anyway, L invited herself to our room pretty much all the time from then on. C found out that L knew her work schedule better than herself, but L would chill around in our room even if C wasn't there. C soon grew wary of L, whose only conversation was saying shit about other departments' coworkers and grandiose praise about herself. C caught herself unconsciously trying to create a physical distance with L, which bothered her since she's usually not that way with anybody. Then L wrote C a two-pages letter filled with reproachs to the brim and accusing her of, basically, letting her 'frienship' down. I didn't see that letter but those who did have told C it is undoubtedly a love letter. After that letter, L has kept on hanging out in our room, without anybody having the galls to point out to her that she was only barely welcome to begin with, but is now absolutely not welcome anymore.

C herself doesn't know how to handle the issue : she doesn't want to ever find L in our common room again, but her good manners prevent her from telling L, who is OS married and has children, that hitting on her is not okay.

Although I'm working part time only, if L keeps encroaching herself in our room it will befall me to tell her off. We want to tell her off because she's an asshole, but no doubt she'll misconstrue it to the whole workplace as being told off because we are homophobic and have (wrongly) believed her to be a lesbian.

We don't want to out her to the whole workplace, but we'd like to keep our department's image intact.

Any advice on how to deal with an assholish closeted lesbian without being labelled homophobic assholes ?

@Cat, on the websites I know people usually use nicknames (actually around me people alter their names even on Facebook), and I think not everyone publishes identifiable pictures even when they are not in any kind of immediate danger from recognition.

And even if you don't disclose on your profile, you can still do so in a private conversation leading up to the date. Actually, not doing so and then complaining that the other person turned out to be not into you because you are trans is extremely disingenuous. Yes, you can definitely choose to disclose after establishing a face-to-face connection, and that might up your chances of success, but then you can't complain that the other person didn't warn you it was a deal breaker, and that your expectations fell through. Just like with any other potential deal breaker. Mention it in advance or accept that you might be rejected at that coffee date because of it.

@sissoucat

Any advice on how to deal with an assholish closeted lesbian without being labelled homophobic assholes ?

Is the closeted lesbian part relevant? She has no reason to be in your common room and your department does not want her there. No reason to bring up sexual orientation in the painful conversation where she is told to please stay away.

@259/263, Cat Brother---One of the reasons I loved your comments and thoughts was that they laid bare the double-speak...people like what they like and sometimes it's as simple as those small things (like the side-juice or the under-thwump of women's butts). it is not phobic to crave certain details. I may not have been clear but I was celebrating the fact that you were not being closed-minded at all. And I also tried to have fun with the ass topic. What can I say, I live around a lot of very thin white women and their men have stolen the ass glances due to higher juice levels. Haven't seen too many like that matador, though, who is working some girl action, for sure, but is also definitely missing the apple/blossom you enjoy so much!

@268 CMDWannabe: I should elaborate on that. It doesn’t sound too nice. My statement reads like I don’t see transwomen as women. I do not refer to the transwomen in my life as anything other than what they say, but what I wrote indicates otherwise. There are, as you sensed, levels of personal experience informing my statement, “….and often bear no resemblance to women whatsoever”. I did write something that sounds crappy regardless of what I meant. And what I meant was a conceptual thing…

My experiences have included profoundly conservative, narcissistic, homophobic, and misogynist transwomen who engage in behavior stereotypically and historically associated with privileged males. Even if I embrace the notion that women behave like this or that it’s just human behavior, it’s still so specifically and stingingly patriarchal that I have become unable to separate it from “men”. That’s right, I wasn’t always like this.

My experience of certain behavior is what has TURNED ME to saying such things as “often bear no resemblance to women whatsoever”…in terms of a larger conversation with people who are just learning how to respect trans* people, it is not helpful. Especially if I come across as transphobic. It’s by no means all of my experiences and encounters, and perhaps those should be touted instead, but this is at the root of the dating issue between women. The deeper issue is one of feminism.

You're right, registered european, The thing is, we have also people from other departments dropping by, but they don't stay longer than we can bear them. This one does.

Jocass @223; one really has to stand up to bullies, doesn't matter what their gender.
I've had the experience here on SL of being abused and bullied because my ideas around trans*issues do not fit the " prescribed" viewpoint.
How do other feminists view this thuggish behaviour you describe?

@273/279: sissoucat: I don't think you have to start with full-on expulsion. Maybe something along the lines of "Hi L, while we do occasionally invite guests over, the common room is really meant for our department. We need a shared space to relax and build camaraderie, and that's difficult to do if there are people from other departments always hanging around. In the future, we would appreciate it if you waited for one of us to invite you in before showing up at the common room. Thanks!"

If that doesn't work, then you can escalate.

@281

That's sweet. Thanks. My own distaste of people without enough manners to disregard bothering other persons tends to make me too agressive towards them.

@278 Jocass’
Thanks for elaborating. If I got it right this time than your concern seems to be behavioral only rather than an actual look (or are they related?)
In any case, I have also found some of us to be “profoundly conservative, narcissistic, homophobic, and misogynist transwomen.”
But this is a tiny minority among the trans women I hang around with here, not too far from where this fine publication is being conceived and published, and don’t necessarily make up a larger percentage of assholes than the rest of society.
If you care to please elaborate about the scene you’ve met those people. Are we talking about a club/bar where people are constantly hitting on each other?

Looking back at my own earlier experiences- growing up in a small, conservative rural community as a secretive feminine male who likes to dress up as a woman on occasion- may have actually led me to be more open to other people’s tendencies, sexuality, and other social struggles. Although starting a bit earlier feminism got a lot of exposure during those formative years and I found it very interesting. I still do, and now I also see things differently from my own female perspective.

Unfortunately I also find that some hard-core feminists will never accept me as bigender, let alone a woman, or take any of my observations on gender and feminism seriously.

Nocute- you mentioned earlier some transforming kids in your country- Denmark?- and I wonder what's the ftm/mtf ratio. Any statistics?

@CMDwannabe: I live in the United States, in California--the San Francisco Bay Area.
I don't know the stats for the region (someone could probably look them up), but all three kids were/are ftm. Interestingly, I know only a handful of trans adults (though it's possible I know more trans adults than I realize are trans), and all but one of them are mtf.

@ 282 - Hi Sissou, hadn't seen you here in a while!

You can also use the passive-agressive method: the sign on the wall (or on the door, so she can't pretend to have missed it) that says something like "This common room is meant exclusively for the members of Department X. While we may occasionally allow guests, they must be accompanied at all times by a member of Department X, or they shall be asked to leave." And have it signed by your Department supervisor, so it doesn't look like it's targeting anyone.

@275 That was my suggestion: messaging before meet-up seems much less broadcasty.

@285 Nocute
Thanks.

Is that some sort of challenge, CMD @283?
Now, I wouldn't classify myself as a hardcore feminist, cause I wear lipstick.. But you know, I'm on the Lipstick Wearing Rung.
I've never seen you mention how you experience the world as a woman.
You must know by now, you've got to pick your audience.

@290 Dear Lava
This is not a challenge nor was it a comment directed at you. Really, nothing but my own personal experiences in relation to where I grew up and the seemingly progressive community where I reside nowadays. My writing is poetry and short fiction which I read in local venues, some times in my female persona. It is personal, intimate stuff, and I'd rather not publish it here. If interested please provide an email address and I'll send you some of it.
Rest assured, I'm also wearing lipstick.

Ms Lang may be suspicious that HISMOM is a fake, but I have to wonder about a "childhood sexuality expert" who isn't familiar with Sigmund Freud's Stages of Psychosexual Development. Of course, Freud isn't the be-all-and-end-all of psychology, but he made many good points about why and at which ages we learn to associate pleasure with different erogenous zones. (Anal he associated with potty-training age, immediately after oral, or nursing age.)

CMD; I didn't think the comment was directed at me..
So what shade are you into. I only buy Lancôme lipstick.
Expensive, can't skimp on lipstick though.. I'm stil into the soft Brown/ red tinge.
So these radical lesbians, they discount your poetry etc?

Hey Ricardo, missed you ! Thanks for the tip but actually, that would be very impractical in our work settings and would lead to a lot more gossip than we care for... And passive-agressive posters always leads to misunderstandings and more problems than there were before. We don't want the other people we accept to feel bad - and the asshole is disingenuous enough to consider that the poster applies to everybody but her. No, I've got to verbally confront her and only her.

@Cat in Fez : friendly licks on your forehead, purr, purr.

I have a question that I don't think has been mentioned before, and that makes me wonder if this question is somehow out of bounds, or just paranoid.
LW says she has met previously undisclosed transwomen on dates three times already. Some other commenters indicate that transwomen may be nearly as common as ciswomen in the lesbian community. That seems astounding to me...I would have guessed that most transwomen are straight, just as most ciswomen are straight, and that lesbian transwomen are a small minority. But apparently that is not the case.
The question, then... Is it possible that some straight men are faking trans status in order to date lesbian woman? Seriously, if this had happened to me more than once, I would start suspecting a scam of that nature.
I realize I don't have much perspective on this. As a het ciswoman, my gender identity feels entwined with my sexual orientation. I think if I were a cis man attracted to women, even if I felt that I was in a incorrectly gendered body, I would be hard pressed to choose between continuing as a man (with a wider pool of straight women) or transitioning to female and only being open to the much smaller pool of lesbian women who might be attracted to transwomen. So from my personal prospective, it's very hard to understand why there are so many lesbian transwomen. It's easier to believe that at least some of them are scamming het men attracted to lesbians...and then shaming those who reject them..."what, am I not womanly enough for you, is it the penis, oh you must be a bigot." Is this what is happening here?
For the LW, since this experience is so frequent for her, I would recommend some statement in her profile...positive rather than negative, e.g. "Prefer ciswomen." If it were a rare experience, I'd favor Dan's advice, but when the transwomen begin to outnumber the ciswomen, it seems to be important to state it.

@BeingABear

As one poster already mentionned, this letter is very obviously a fake because there is no way a 5 year old has naturally a so relaxed anus that it is able to accomodate a toy in and out during bath times. That simply doesn't happen.

Now, I'm not overly familiar with anus sphincter tonicity in children, but from what I remember from my own childhood, getting one tiny finger inside is already a pain in the ass, excuse my french ; so a toy car is unbelievable.

As for Freud, obviously he was a precursor but lots of people have studied children after him, and the detail of his theories are today more of interest to the historian of sciences than to the actual scientist. You can't blame a psychologist of the 21st century for not refering to Freud. Besides remember that science doesn't accept 'a historical figure said it' as grounds for eternal validity (unlike religion).

Lava @293
My favorite is Mac A32 ("Sweetie"). You can see it here in this review (not mine):
http://www.cosmochics.com/mac-lustre-pat…

I was booed once, in the open mic section of a mixed event, and was told there's no way I can be a reader in an on-going feminist event.
The two hacklers were new to the event I was at and may be lesbians, I don't know. The person who organizes the other event is straight as far as I know.
Booing was actually challenging since it made me think more of what is it that I did and said, and where these women may come from.
The no for the other event may be more painful as my request to read in that event was dismissed right away by the organizer, who has known me for some time. She didn't even bother asking for samples, telling me she'll think about it, or explaining that there's a long waiting list.

@295 Squid
“Is it possible that some straight men are faking trans status in order to date lesbian woman?”
Probably not, though I suspect Hunter’s silence this week may be due to some medical procedures.
There are different shades of transitioning along with different types of behavior that may get different reactions, and not all of them positive.

Well CMD; you are getting the female experience. Being ignored. Welcome!
Isn't that what the Lesbians here on this thread are saying? Their wishes. Private, sexual wishes- are being ignored.
Even Dan, is putting pressure on them.
Just find feminist venues/ or open Mike at other spaces- that are happy to hear of your take on things.

@295: My understanding is that transpeople are more likely to be gay/lesbian than the baseline. I suspect that growing up with a confusing gender identity (before realizing trans status) makes it harder to have a fixed sexual orientation, so trans people may have been more likely to "go along" with the default "straight" orientation. When they realize they're trans, they may keep the same attractions, particularly if they're in what was previously an opposite-sex relationship.

As a straight man, I can't imagine pretending to be a transwoman to hook up with lesbians. It's difficult enough to nail women who are at least theoretically open to the idea of sleeping with you. Why dramatically increase the difficulty?

Like with the whole area of gay love:these things should not be Up for political discussion. Because who one wants to and does fuck- is really nobody else's busines but that person on wants to fuck.
Who one wants to fuck is not a conscious choice. So trying to manipulate people, is never going to generate desire.

4am posts; business. That person who one wants to fuck.

Still disagree with the online dating advice. An online dating profile is exactly the place where we're meant to put our preferences right out there - right up front. That's the point. Throw the deal breakers out there right up front so we both don't waste our time falling for someone who either a. has a dick or b. doesn't have a dick.

I had this struggle when I became HIV+. If I put poz in my dating profile I wouldn't get any responses. So I left it out thinking I'd disclose on the 3rd date or some other point before sexual contact. So then we're both invested and he now has to break it off because he's still uncomfortable with it. Or he doesn't break it off because he doesn't want to seem like a dick and we get even further into it before I decide I can't stand to have sex with someone who is obviously so uncomfortable with it.

Why would a trans person want to have a coffee with someone who's not into them any more than I would want to meet a woman for coffee when I'm into dudes? If you're going to be trans, or bi, or gay, or Asian, or Black, or White, you gotta have a thick enough skin in this life to accept that some people are not going to want to fuck you - or even have coffee with you.

@303 "Why would a trans person want to have a coffee with someone who's not into them "

But imagine the person is actually very attracted to them. And increasingly attracted when they meet in person. People who have unusual genitals (micropenis, enlarged clitoris, whatever) may often find themselves in that situation. Yes, they should disclose before clothes come off and before significant emotional investment has happened. But I can see excellent reasons for not disclosing anything about one's genitals on a dating profile. (Unless it's one of those sites where it's customary to disclose the size of one's genitals.)

@278, as you suggest, statements intended to marginalize transwomen also have the effect of policing what ciswomen are supposed to be like. "Real women aren't so loud and aggressive." Well, many ciswomen, especially from certain cultural backgrounds, are in fact loud and aggressive. And women who had to hide their femininity lest they get beaten up may indeed act in ways that seem unfeminine. If we're committed to not policing other people's enactment of gender roles, then it's important to extend that to people on the transgender spectrum.

So, BigIslandPlanet, I assume that you now put HIV+ on your online profiles. Do you get responses ? Has it improved the quality of your meetings ?

Well, gotta say that this discussion definitely has me looking at women in public in a different way...it’s interesting.
#304 Erica - The thing about dating sites (unless you’re checking the ‘friendship’ box) is that, in the same way people get on employment sites with the ultimate aim of getting a job, people go on dating sites with the aim of finding someone for a romantic i.e. sexual relationship.
Having an extra-large clit is a bit different than being a transwoman.
I’m still unclear, not having encountered any trans pussy the last few days (the old man at the inn kept telling me, “Stay to the roooad, especially when the moon’s full!”), but I’m unclear still on how much it’s like cis pussy, and also how things like the standard female hip structure, which I, Herr, and no doubt a couple of the girls who like girls are fans of.
Now, unless your first coffee date is on paddleboards or something, you both might show up in smart business attire, which usually does a good job of hiding that body you might possibly be wanting to rebound off of. In my massage career, I’ve certainly had a few women show up in frumpy/shapeless outfits, and when I enter the room with them lying face down in their underwear, I (in my mind) pointed feverishly, like a setter, and screamed GET THE FUCK OUT OF HERE WITH THAT SHIT!
So, often can’t tell when people are dressed up, and especially, sitting down. And how people look when they’re undressed has a big part to play, in deciding whether we want to date, that is, fuck like a Visigoth, them.
What I’m saying is, if someone is on a dating site, looking for a woman, they’re (unless otherwise stated) also looking for a ‘womanly’ body, though of course everyone has ideas on their ideal.
This is hardly ‘policing enactment of gender roles,’ neither I nor anyone on this board wants to keep tradespeople from posting on dating sites. The opinion of the involved parties, both trans and single cis, seems to be early disclosure is best for all.

Jocass' @277
All hail the under-thwump!

Mr Cat - Tradespeople? That's probably the new leader for Slip of the Week.

Mr Venn, I know, right?
Auto-correct, which also keeps switching ‘clit’ to ‘clot.’
I believe this is what’s called a ‘first-world problem.’
Those tradespeople do need to stick to their own kind, though. Always after their filthy lucre...

Lucky we got sharp eyes Venn here. Completely missed that one.

Lava- Thanks for welcoming me into womanhood and warn me of the obstacles ahead.
That's very meaningful indeed.

Yet I'm deeply hurt you never touched on the most important issue at hand (pun unintended):
WHAT DO YOU THINK OF MY LIPSTICK CHOICE???????????

CMD; sorry somehow missed your lipstick reference. My mind is fading.
And when I checked the link, they didn't show the colour, just the case. So. I can't give you an answer.

Stupid me, CMD. I checked link again and of course by scrolling down, there's the colour. It's ok. Little pale for my taste. Then, we like the colour we like.

Rereading my post at #307, I see that I might have been unclear that that was a positive reaction in the massage room, with those previously frumpily clad women. I meant, I was shocked and amazed by the body that had been hidden, that I was about to run my (powerfully strong, somewhat rough but always warm) hands over. Glad they were lying face down, as I was most likely wearing some form of sweatpants.
Did anyone else here see ‘An American Werewolf in London’? Besides being the source of an above joke, and starring the Dr Pepper guy, and what the hell ever happened to him, it left me with a lifelong wish, to someday somehow initiate my first sexual contact with a girl, by doing the fabled ‘shower walk-in.’ She’s already in there, soaping up or something, and you weren’t overtly invited, but you came in the shower too, totally nude, and she was totally into it.
I gotta ask, as this thread is turning out highly educational for me, has anyone else successfully pulled this off? You barged into their shower and they were down with it?

You mean CatB, as a professional person- you, you know?
I remember in my early 20s, having been in a slight car accident- and suffering whip lash- going to a osteopath / and he moving round the table, attending to my neck- with a hard on. Disconcerting behaviour.

Jocass or others. Just starting to understand how the trans community of women may be changing the feminist perspective. If anyone could send me towards a site where this dialogue may be going on, that would be great.
Prefer not a rat bag site. These issues need a good airing, and all perspectives heard and integrated.

Lava #316, disconcerting indeed. A couple of thoughts on that -
Treating pain is one thing, a 'feel-good' massage is another. If someone, male or female, comes in in obvious pain, my mind is focused on getting them out of it. If a beautiful woman comes in, first thing she says is 'It feels like Years since someone has Touched me...this massage will be Head to Toe, right?,' and this does happen, the mind can wander.
Like being turned on by your best buddy's hot girlfriend, being turned on by a client (especially if you're early/mid-20's, the time frame I was thinking of) doesn't make you the Lone Ranger, but it does mean you got to find means to Conceal and Maintain. The human body is not built to be commanded at will, it will do some shit on its own, but you have to recognize this and take steps.This is part of being a professional.

You meet your pal and his wife who looks like Monica Belluci at the beach, and she spends several minutes, in her bikini, adjusting the beach blanket, on all fours...well, you're only human, but you better go jump in the surf.
A few years into my massage career, I had by necessity mastered the deep-stance lunge that put my hips below table level, the artfully-untucked shirt (people wore their shirts tucked in in the 80's/early 90's, kids), as well as just metally getting aholt of shit before I asked the client to turn face up; thinking of the tragic brevity of life, train wrecks, Yogi Berra in his underwear...yeah, got a whole montage.
Not to blow the gaff on a whole profession but...If you go to get a massage, and you look good to whomever's giving it, they're not going to be inappropriate (if they have a brain in their head), but, it's a good day, for them. We practitioners all agree about this, in private, and on some level, you guys out there know it's true. Don't lie, motherfucker! Then again, we're used to seeing (or, er, smelling) you guys getting turned on, like, a lot, from just getting your arms and upper backs worked on, so we figure it's a push.

So, Lava, I can only imagine what kind of sun-and-surf sexpot you were in your early 20's, no doubt when you came in from the beach, glazed with sweat and salt water and smelling faintly of cinnamon, asking would someone put a bit more cocoa butter on your shoulders, I'm sure you put a fair bit of Wonga in many a young man's TingTang, or whatever you guys say down there.
But if you came in with whiplash, that should have shut it down right there. “Crikey, me neck's givin' me gyp. Oi, doc, gimme a Foster's and some relief, yeah?” Boom, frame change. Hope you didn't go back.