Columns Jul 29, 2015 at 4:00 am

Girl Party

Comments

1
Re: letter from C*NT (I just can't type that word): Solid advice she clearly needed to hear. I couldn't help wondering, though, why the Saddlebacking option never came up.
2
LW1, why would you need to provide condoms at a girls only party? Girls on the prowl? I'm confused. I need a coffee.
3
LG, if they're using toys on each other, the considerate thing to do is wrap it up. That way, if they switch off with the same toy, they just put on a new wrapper. No getting up every twenty minutes to go wash off Titus.
4
There's another reason why CUNT's boyfriend may be dodging the "let's have PIV sex" issue: when I was 17/18 I dated a guy who would happily make out with me for hours and who would also enthusiastically be into all the (un-reciprocated) oral sex I could give, but who evaded my pleas to "go all the way" on the grounds that "we don't love each other and we're not animals." Neither of us was/is Christian, but somehow his invoking god's creation of us as creatures above lowly beasts didn't carry the ring of religious conviction. I broke up with him and found someone who'd happily fuck me, launching my career as a happy slut.

We lost touch.
For decades, I couldn't shake the thought that somehow he was better than me, purer than me. That I was a base creature at the mercy of her sexual appetites and he had more self-control.

Then, almost 30 years later, we reconnected through the magic of Facebook. After a few early messages, he asked if I remembered those make-out sessions. I told him I did and asked if he remembered turning me down when I wanted PIV sex. He said this (I'm paraphrasing): "the truth was I had no experience and I was terrified that I wouldn't know what I was doing and I wouldn't be able to satisfy you. I was just scared of being mortified. Trust me, if you asked me now, the answer would be very different!"
5
For Naive Teen-- (I'm answering early because I'm hoping NT catches on. "Unsexed" doesn't mean what you think it does, and everyone is confused.) I could answer your letter after stopping at the "Is it stupid for us to stay together?" question and skipping the rest because the stuff about your not having had sex yet doesn't change anything.

The good news is that you don't have to stay together. You don't have to break up. Tell your boyfriend that you're looking forward to meeting new people at college and also looking forward to seeing him again at Xmas break. In the mean time, write, skype, phone, and text-- but not too much. Once a day is more than enough. That's it. Be open to new experiences in college. Accept invitations to doing things with new friends. Study. Explore. Don't drink yourself into a stupor ever. Then sit back and see what happens.

Maybe you'll be attracted to some great guy, and you'll do some sexual experimentation with him. You can mention that to your boyfriend and ask how he feels. Maybe you'll be more attracted to your boyfriend, and everything will work out when you see him. There's bound to be some hard feeling somewhere along the line since most early relationships don't work out, but I'm not predicting disaster, just some poignant growing pains.
6
BTW, Confused girl, I am not recommending that you stay together. Or that you have to break up. Go to college, have new experiences, make new friends--both of you.
That you're even considering marrying anyone--whether you're having great sex, terrible sex, or no sex--at this point in time is ridiculous. You're what? 18? Maybe 17?
Have fun in what's left of the summer, break up in a "we can still date next summer if we want to, but for now, let's not put any restrictions on each others' freshman year" way, and enjoy yourself--safely--at college.
7
I always wondered if the acronym sign-offs were all created by the letter writers or not, and until now I assumed they all were. It would be great if there was some indicator when Dan makes one up.
8
NSA: be prepared if using FetLife or similar to decide if you'd like only cisgender women, or also trans* women, and whether or not you want a certain body type -- it's your party and you can set what types, age ranges, etc. you want (people who have other standards / tastes, they can host their own parties). Another idea in addition to the phone screen, a brief in-person (coffee shop) interview. There is one gay male sex party I know of where the host screens all people with both phone and in person interviews, to make sure everyone fits his interests.
9
I'm 35 and i was single up until i was 32. Dated a lot but never could find a match. "when are you gonna settle down" or, worse, "why are you still single" were never fun, i started giving snarky, sarcastic, self deprecating answers after a while to deflect. Dude's definitely not alone in feeling a sting with those...
10
@4, nocutename, as though there is something wrong with being an animal. I revel in my animalness every day, and SEX..... sacred carnal animal physical beast dance.
11
FAQ-- Does she want you to be happy, or does she want to show what a cool friend she is to a real life actual cool gay man and wouldn't it be cool if her cool friend had a cool boyfriend because she's so liberal and hip and cool? Obviously I don't know, but if she's asking a lot despite your deflections and hurting your feelings, I suspect the vibe you're getting is the latter, not the former, which is why you're feeling conflicted.

If she really wanted you to be happy, if this was really about you and not her, then she'd be interested in whatever was important to you relationship-wise in your life even if that was a series of sordid one night stands. If she wanted you to be happy, she'd be sensitive to the way you're changing the subject. She'd even notice a negative pattern that's working against you and bring up alternatives. She wouldn't be nagging you.

Anyway, Dan's advice is good. Tell her to knock it off. She either get it and will stop, or she'll flounce off in a huff. Problem solved either way.

While I'm here, allow me to note some irony. Your friend sounds like the traditional Yiddishe mama constantly harping on her son to find a nice girl and settle down. Why is it that acceptance comes in the form of being just as annoying to gay folks as to straight ones?
12
To round out July, I shall postulate that any woman who asks, "Is my boyfriend gay?" deserves to turn at least her next five or ten straight-presenting BFs. Not only is the question bi-erasing, but the implied conceit that she's so all that that of course gay men would date her and even make a serious effort to enjoy the cross-orientational sex gives me a *huge* LMB.

Oh, and oral, even unreciprocated, is sex, isn't it?
13
Thanks Sangu, here was I thinking maybe they were used in water bomb fights. Though, maybe water bomb balloons would break easier.
14
Dan, why are you giving us letters in the weekly coluum that have so little meat on them, and the juicy ones go in the daily thread?
15
@12 I don't think this question comes from a place of conceit as much as it comes from sheer ignorance since our sex-ed is lacking. Plus there's this poisonous belief that men are just walking penises willing to have sex at the drop of hat, and not people who may have their own hang ups or reluctance about sex.
16
Spot on advice again, this week, Dan the Man! Thanks again for a great, kick-ass column.

@4 nocutename: Thank you for sharing your make-out experience at age 17/18. It's nice that your guy after so many years finally opened up to you and clarified his feelings from back then. Thank you, too, for aptly pointing out that men have plenty of sexual fears just as we women do..
17
FAQ's annoyingly persistent lady friend does sound malicious and stupid.
18
@14 LavaGirl: Yeah, but don't you love reading the juicy comment threads? I do.

Red, red wiiiiiine, GF tiramisu, and organic berries for me this week! Yippppeeeee!
19
LW1 comes across like a straight man’s fantasy fake.
I suspect a woman who's already into this must have done some research on her own, and most likely came up with some answers as to who and how.

And that going for the strap ons right at the front...
"Do I need to provide the dildos for people's harnesses?" If people bring their harnesses one would assume they are extremely likely to pair it with the dildo that goes with it and they're comfortable with.
And unless I’m missing something, and feel free to correct me if you think I’m wrong, I don’t think the strap on issue is so fundamental in the lesbian community to make a novice feel obligated to provide bunch of them in her first party ever.
20
Leftover from last week #1:

Philo @ at last week’s 73: “CL casual encounters are as good as the Onion, plus there's local penis pics usually.”

Just wonder how significant is the “local” part. Are you wondering if any of the close ups belong to anyone you know? Maybe copy and paste on a stranger walking up the street?

Sincere question, nothing bad, something I may do myself in a slightly different context.
21
Leftover from last week #2:
Lava @ last week’s 89
“Places where women's rights, queer rights are just stomped on.”
Yes, it all goes together. And where women gain and thrive so do other groups.
22
@19 I'm getting the fake vibe on the first and last letters this week. The first does sound like a teen fantasy and the third is incongruous in that the LW is (presumably) a virgin and by her own admission naive yet comfortable using CUNT, which I find offends people more often than not. Maybe Dan just likes to fulfil fantasy wishes from fans sometimes.

The fully grown adult whose BFF is annoying him with her badgering about his relationships (or lack thereof) isn't offended, he is uncomfortable because he knows he is unhappy but doesn't know how to fix it. If he was cool about being unhitched he would just tell her so. But he wants to find someone, he just lacks the confidence or skills to go out and meet them.

FAQ - change your social patterns. You are, I suspect, avoiding or not seeking out opportunities to meet the right sort of people, your female friend is picking up on this and challenging you because she senses your dissatisfaction. Get out there, not the bars and clubs, but the volunteering, the hiking, the salsa, the conservation, the whatever - with other gay people.
23
Ms Anon - Perhaps not conscious conceit, but conceit nonetheless in effect. "No member of group A (or even Group B) can possibly resist the offer of access to my body part X; therefore, this person must be a member of Group C."

The odious question not only is bi-erasing but at the same time plays to the bisupremacist stereotype that monosexuals are only attracted to (or repusled by) genitalia.
24
For LW2, an analogy I heard recently: Going off to college still committed to your high school sweetheart is like going to brand new fancy restaurant and bringing your own sandwich.
25
This is a bit off-topic, but important. If you haven't heard, the Ashley Madison adultery site has been hacked. The hackers are threatening to reveal users' names, addresses, and financial and sexual information unless the site is shut down.

Most of the media are taking a nothing-more-than-the-cheaters-deserve position. But it seems to me that the more relevant issue is that this is Christian fundamentalist cyber-terrorism. Next they might break into regular dating sites and expose closeted homosexuals, or break into medical records and publish the names of women who've had abortions.
26
So how much commission did Allison Moon earn for writing 40% of this week's column?
27
24PolicyChick-- Allow me to take the romantic, possibly naive, point of view. My experience tells me you're right, but I can't help being some sort of idealist or optimistic.

By analogy-- We know that children don't remember much before age 4-5, but it would be foolish to think that our earliest childhood experiences don't affect us as we grow. We know that our early romantic/sexual involvements don't usually last, but I believe it would be similarly foolish to disregard them as unimportant. If they're practice for the "real" relationship that will come later, why not milk it for all the practice we can get out of them.

Remember the bad old days when women were supposed to have no sexual experience whatsoever and then be okay on their wedding night when everything changed for them? Yet somehow we expect teens to disregard their relationship experience and still become good at it later, "when they're ready." NT is having a problem with her early relationship. Maybe it's a matter of learning to communicate her needs better. Maybe it's a matter of choosing a more compatible partner. There are probably a hundred reasons why this early relationship isn't going to work, but that only means there are a hundred things she can learn from the experience. The answer isn't to shrug and say "oh, well, it wasn't going to work anyway."

I guess this is a peeve of mine. As a society, we say we value commitment and friendship, but if 2 friends want to go to the same college, we tell them, "oh no, you have to go to college and make new friends." Why? what's wrong with being with an old friend-- as long as they're not so heavily invested that they miss new opportunities. We tell young people that they're supposed to be in a committed relationship when they marry, but if they want to be in a committed relationship at 18, we tell them not to even try. It would be rare, but not impossible, for this relationship to work, but why not give it a go? Here's my starry eyed optimism showing. What if it works? (I have a friend in her 90s. She married at 19. She has great-great-grandchildren. They've celebrated a 70th wedding anniversary.)

So if she sees herself as being in a committed relationship later, she ought to try being in a committed relationship now. That doesn't mean not dating and not making friends in college. She can easily have both. She can keep in touch with her high school sweetheart and still stay open to all that college has to offer.
29
@ 22 - "he wants to find someone, he just lacks the confidence or skills to go out and meet them"

You're extremely naive if you think it's as simple as that.
30
Adding to Mr Ricardo - To an extent, aren't the volunteering, the hiking, the salsa, etc. just becoming the new bar? The activity involved may be a good deal healthier and a somewhat improved basis for bonding, but the type of interaction seems to be in the process of acquiring the same flavour by osmosis. Perhaps it will be only a matter of time before people who say that trying to meet people in bars or clubs is the hallmark of a loser just expand their application of the L word to those who try to meet people via such activities.

What bullies humans are.
31
@12: "the implied conceit that she's so all that that of course gay men would date her and even make a serious effort to enjoy the cross-orientational sex gives me a *huge* LMB."

I also read it as both homo/biphobic and conceited, but not in the sense that "I'm so hot that even gay men make an exception for me." Because the question always comes when the guy won't put out, right? It's conceited in the sense of "I'm so hot that if he doesn't like me, that must mean he doesn't like girls. Because of course there's nothing undesirable about me."
32
Oh, and how come this week's column has last week's title?
33
Allen Gilliam @25
Thanks for bringing it up. Can we call the hackers "Christian Fanatics" or is the term "fanatic" should only apply to far away hairy monsters?
34
CUNT: No, he's probably not gay. Oral is a lot more intimate than PIV sex. From what I've heard from women who have discovered that they were dating a guy "in the closet", PIV sex is easier to get done than lots of other things. Just close your eyes and pretend its an a*sshole.

Several reasons for his hesitation have been put forth. But from your "are heading off to different colleges in the fall" remark, here's another: Prevent babies. Lots of men a willing to forgo PIV and the risk of pregnancy and the subsequent effects that can have on scholastic and professional lives by avoiding the risk of a slipped condom or forgotten birth control pill.
35
Venn, I disagree that the woman is 'bi-erasing'. She's 18 y.o., with little experience, and she's trying to make sense of sex and relationships.

I don't think she's coming at it from the idea of she's so damn hot, but rather from trying to quell her own insecurities about his rejection. Many women that age (and many that are old enough to be her grandma) worry that a rejection is personalized. Am I ugly? Does he think I'm fat? Maybe he's gay. At least if I knew that, I wouldn't feel so bad about myself, and could move on.

Allen Gilliam @25, Dan has already done a post about the Ashley Madison hack, with a ton of input from regulars and others.
37
I went to a Mormon college and the thought of sticking with a dude with whom I didn't have crazy chemistry and was doing everything in my power to NOT get in his pants to get married! at 18!! never crossed my mind.

Break up, have fun, get some dick.
39
@22 many people, myself included, enjoy being single. The well-meaning assumptions that I'm unhappy, that I'm really in love with my male BFF, or that I'm still in love with my ex are offensive. We all know how to meet people and we can be in a relationship if we choose to...if we are willing to settle. Let's face it we all settle in relationships to a degree because no one is perfect, no matter how much love/lust is involved.
40
@27 I don't know about commission but I'm sure the plug for her book makes it worth the effort.
41
I'm 35 and single and guys on dating sites ask me "How are you still single." To like, hit on me? People are idiots. Get better friends.
42
Ms Fan - I think it's a both/and rather than an even/or, given that they've already had enjoyable sex (at least for her).

*****

Ms Zoo - I'll grant you that she might not consciously be intending the logical inferences of her statements, but that's about it. I could live with your response if he were withholding all sexual expression until marriage, or something along that line. I'll grant you that her female tears are perhaps a mitigating factor, but they don't get her out of having insulted gay men by assuming it to be a matter of course that one of us would have dated her and done all kinds of sexual things with her and enjoyed them *for two years* - and yet she wants all the sympathy here?

If it makes you feel any better, I'm not nearly this harsh when such things pop up in real life - more along the lines of asking gently, "You do realize, don't you, that, if (person with very non-X history) A were (a member of group) X, it would be mainly an insult to X?"

43
Come to think of it, I could make much the same case in reverse. If a gay 18-year-old thought his boyfriend of two years must be straight because BF had refused access to you-know-where, I could say just as easily that, if that were true, after two years of all other sorts of enjoyable activities, it would be unfulfilled straight BF who would deserve most of the sympathy. The great immediately apparent difference is that with an SS couple it could be a topping question.
44
This video (admittedly dated) might help the first letter writer, though it will take some modifications for her specific situation. https://youtu.be/eTdLULn2IB0
45
I kind of disagree with the response to the one with the friend that keeps asking when the LW is going to find himself a nice man to settle down with. The fact that he's upset about it is just an indicator to her that this is important to him and he does actually want to be in a relationship. The question is her foray into bringing up the topic generally - maybe talking about what the problem is and to help. I'm curious as to what he thinks is going to change with this 'I'm not good with relationships and I'm not going to talk about it with my friends either' attitude.
That said - I do have the perfect way to get her to stop, if that truly what he wants. The next time they talk - he should bring up another friend (preferably one she doesn't know well) and he should tell her how annoying this other friend is because they keep asking him about finding a man or getting in a relationship. He should say how he's about to blow a fuse if this person asks one more time. I've used this technique with lots of different behaviours - and it often works a treat.
46
Venn @42 & 43: Millions of men engage in some sexual activities with girls, including PIV, before coming out. Whether or not he enjoyed it is not even necessarily established. LW says initially that he did, but goes on to question that.

I'm not even advocating that he IS gay; I don't have a strong opinion that he is or is not, although Dan allowed that it may be what's going on. What I'm saying is I don't think we can look at a teenager and think she is automatically 'bi-erasing' (not sure what that even means to you - refusing to factor in that he might be bi, or completely denying the existence of bi people?) because she is pondering if he is gay as just one of three possibilities (the others being maybe he's not attracted to her or they have very mismatched libidos).

I don't read her letter as her thinking gay men think she's all that, and can't resist her physical charms, so she's crowned herself Napoleon-style for Turning One. She is questioning if he really is attracted to her, which is something most people in her shoes would do. Maybe she would've phrased her letter differently if she were 28 or 48, having a lot of lifetime experience under her belt now, but I don't see her as someone who is homophobic.
47
@46 Agreed. Venn I don't know why you're so hung up on the bi thing. She's not mentioning it because it has nothing to do with her problem. I mean if the BF was bi he'd still like girls and might want to get in her pants. That's the problem. That she's young an inexperienced and feels rejected. Not that she believes she's so hot she can change sexuality at her whims.

Girls are taught from a young age that all guys want sex and that if a guy doesn't want sex something is seriously wrong. The idea that men are people, and might have their own fears and insecurity about sex is almost never mentioned.
48
Man, remember when I said that women will wonder if you are gay if you don't take every opportunity to use their bodies for sex, and everyone said I was wrong?
49
Re: Naive Teen
I'll share a story that seems embarrassing to me in retrospect. My first sexual experiences were pretty good considering that they were my first ones. I didn't know what I was doing, and I was equal parts scared, excited and stupid, but it was all consensual, and we were in love, and he was into me. Relatively good all round. The same goes for the next several notches on my bedpost, more or less. Then there was one guy. On paper, he was perfect for me. He was everything I thought I wanted as to looks, interests, background, politics.

But in bed he was awful. He seemed to think sex was some holy thing we should worship or talk about or make meaningful when I wanted a good fuck. I didn't give up right away. I tried to convince him that a good fuck WAS holy and meaningful. Eventually I did break up with him but not before I thought and thought about what was wrong. I was having a hard time believing that this guy who was so right for me could be so wrong for me. In my confusion, I wondered if he was gay and asked a girlfriend about it. She said he didn't seem gay to her, but she couldn't be sure. (Remember we were both 20 years old.) That guy and I are still friends. He's not gay.

I'm embarrassed now on reading Naive Teen's letter that I even thought such a thing, but as I recall, I wasn't so full of myself as I was inexperienced. It wasn't that I thought any guy who wasn't into me had to be gay; it was that I had a limited vocabulary to explain what was ultimately plain incompatibility. So kudos to Dan for correctly identifying that the two don't click sexually. That's what it comes down to.

Now to Naive Teen directly: This guy can stay your best friend even if the two of you don't click. Nothing wrong with that. He can find someone he clicks with better as can you, and you can stay friends. I've done it. See above.
50
Venn -- Although the question is "is he gay?", it's really not about you. Girls from a very early age are told that all guys want sex all the time, and it's girls' job to say no. Now, those of us with some sexual experience and maturity know it's bullshit, but teenage girls like CUNT don't know that. The message is deeply ingrained and confirmed in their minds by the universality of male sexuality: porn, strip clubs, locker room talk, etc etc etc. So when they get a boyfriend and that boyfriend doesn't want sex all the time, they think something is wrong. So once again it's the patriarchy and gender expectations ruining things for everyone.

@48: Per my comment above, GIRLS may wonder if you're gay. WOMEN won't.
51
Lemming, it's always exciting for Wayne when Dan has a guest on, then he can come on board and say- once again- how much did the guest get paid.
Hey Wayne, glad you could join us this week.
52
Guy with the friend on his back about not having a partner. What, are you 5 yrs old? No, even my 5 yr old granddaughter can say very clearly to others to back off.
Just tell her straight. Back off. If and when you find a suitable beau, she'll be the first outside person to know.
Till then, tell her, let us talk of other things.
53
It's been said already on this thread, but I want to underline:

There are LOTS of guys who don't want to "go all the way" in high school (or in college, or at the company bonding retreat, or at the Pride Parade afterparty), because they just don't. They're not ready, for whatever reason, and they know this about themselves, and that's good. "Losing one's virginity" can be a big deal for a guy. It can be a clumsy mess. Many guys don't enjoy the experience, don't look forward to it, hope it's over quickly, etc.

"What's wrong with him?" isn't a fair response. But NT isn't to blame. Every social message sent and received everywhere suggests that every normal healthy guy sees his virginity as an embarrassment to be shed immediately, and has to be forcibly restrained from fucking everything in sight (pies, for example).

I mean, if this letter were written by a teenage guy about a teenage girl (she won't put out, does this mean she's a lesbian? should I break up with her?)... ouch...
54
@52 agree. it doesn't even need to be a confrontation. Just say "Just so you know, I'd appreciate it if you stopped asking me about my relationship status. I feel hounded." then follow up with a "I don't think you realized it annoyed me and I trust that if you had you wouldn't ask. I'm glad you show concern for me, but I would prefer if you stopped asking. When there is a change in my status, you'll be sure to know"
55
@53 wins this comment thread.
56
fetish @ 48, i don't think you can extrapolate "women" from one relatively inexperienced teenage girl. Hopefully more life experience will mean that in ten years she'll have a much better perspective on this (of course that might not happen too). For fuck's sake, when I was 18 I didn't speak to my boyfriend for a week after finding out he had a pornographic magazine!

I don't get any homophobia from her letter but I do get the sense of her casting around trying to find reasons why her boyfriend might not be that aroused by her.

Vennominon, can't her tears (if there were any) be described just as tears? I don't know what's different about "female tears".
57
Yes Fan @55, good call by @53.
58
@56 one experience! hah! the "i wonder if he is gay" type thinking is outright normal, more common than not.
59
@53, @55, and @57: Agreed!
60
@50 and 53 this is what I was trying to say but you said it better. I really don't think C*NT is some egocentric monster who believes the world revolves around her pussy, but the product of years and years of being told that sex and sexuality are black-and-white issues, and that she is an object that should be used for sex, and any guy who doesn't fix the script must have something 'wrong' about him.
61
Mesdames - I am following the question out to all its logical conclusions. Whether LW is homophobic or not doesn't matter; she asked a question with homophobic implications, and this is the ideal time to teach her, especially if she isn't homophobic, where that line of thought leads before she builds on it. Intent isn't magic, after all.

Ms Zoo - By now surely it's down to thousands, or perhaps even hundreds. At any rate, I'll assume we all hope so and want to continue decreasing the number. Also, I think the time line greatly reduces the chances; there would be rapidly diminishing returns for a gay suitor (I mean "really" gay and not rounding; perhaps you're counting rounders) in even the most homophobic of localities. If LW doesn't harbour anti-gay prejudices, then far better to let her know now that she sounds as if she might rather than coddle her until she gets worse. I'm not sure whether this way of thinking is likely to lead someone into inadvertently picking up genuine prejudice, but I'd rather not find out.

Ms Quilting - Well spotted! I almost removed that, but one of the LMB-worthy things I heard last week was someone supposedly pro-men in the gender wars blathering on in full Evopsyche Mode about how All Men Are Evolved to React Automatically in a Protective Way to Women's Tears (making them a mitigating factor in a sentence decided by jury). If that's the opposition, the feminists can declare victory, pack up and go home very soon indeed.

Ms Anon - It's the logical conclusion. If any man who doesn't worship the High Holy F genitalia "must" be gay, that gives negative-inference support to the bisupremacist stereotype that all monsoexuals only care about genitalia. Yes, it's a minor point, but it is still July, and I'm admittedly much more interested in the wider implications of the letter and its questions than the letter itself or LW herself, as she's almost certain to follow Mr Savage's suggested path and will probably be writing him an entirely different letter in a few years' time.

Ms Fan - By all means, score goals against the patriarchy, which might be considered reminiscent of Rangers defeating Celtic (I'm hoping I remember my Scottish football hierarchy tolerably well), but preferably without spiking a player from Hearts en route.
64
Venn, the point made by more than just me is that it's not a "logical conclusion" that the LW is homophobic. Nor is the idea that only a few hundred or thousand gay men engage in sexual activity with girls/women before coming out fully. As much as great progress has been made, it's rather Pollyanna to think that only a few teenage boys and men do not move straight from their first boner to putting it in another male, bypassing the widely experienced confusing, embarrassing time when they try to fit in as straight. I respect that those are both your opinions, but I don't agree with either of them.

@60 msanonymous covers it well. Just as you frequently ask us to consider your point of view in terms of sexual preferences, gender, and expectations, please understand that a lot of women are able to ascertain what a teenage girl is thinking that has to do with stereotypes, gender messaging, and self/body-image. LW is asking legit questions and, to me, deserves more than a dismissal as a homophobe.

I'm still wondering how you define 'bi-erasing'.
65
Venn I really have no idea what you're on about but you seem to be putting a great deal of effort into both missing the points made in the comments and reading way, WAY to much into the letter itself.

I'm not going to label C*NT a homophobe because she, at 18 mind you, thought her boyfriend might be gay because he didn't want to have sex with her. I think you're reading maliciousness where there's really only ignorance.

I don't know, or care if the boyfriend is gay, bi, asexual, only that Crinoline made a good point that these two aren't compatible, and holding on to this relationship in college is a bad idea.
67
"I've been my boyfriend's girlfriend for two years."

What a curious way "Confused, Unsexed, Naive Teen", introduces herself.... Sometimes it seems like our culture changes blindingly fast, other times, oh so slowly.
68
Why is the word "cunt" so taboo? My understanding is that it evolved from "queynte", which has the same root as "queen", and meaning "that which pertains to a woman".

"Pussy" is slang derived from the word for what we might now call a bunny, a cute furry animal living in a hole.

Not so bad, eh?
69
MsAnon @ 65
Ignorance can still be malicious, intentional or not.

Cynara @ 68
Both “cunt” and “pussy” have sexist connotations, believed to be derogatory terms for female genitalia.
Quite a few who avoid the words for this reason still embrace “dick.”
70
I don't see them as derogatory, CMD.
Cunt is a strong word, though. One of my sons uses it occassionally as a derogatory word towards people,
he's a c****, type thing.
When either word is used to describe female gentialia, I have no problem with it.
Anyone who uses those words out of context though, is a real dick.
71
Oops, I mean they are a real knob.
Oh no, they are a real prick. Shit!
72
@58: I'm sorry more women in your life have wondered whether you were gay than not. While I don't dispute the truth of your experience, I do dispute that it's universal. Either you send out gay vibes somehow or you have a habit of choosing the wrong women. Just because women have a habit of not fancying me doesn't mean I should conclude that all women prefer men to other women, right? It's just my bad luck!

@69: Ignorance can be hurtful, but by definition it is not malicious. Malice is by definition intentional. I do agree with Venn that whenever this ignorant attitude crops up, a swift re-education is in order to prevent further harm to the person themselves, the person they're wondering it about, and the LGBT community generally.
73
I am fine with stipulating that LW isn't necessarily homophobic. I thought it has been well established here that saying or doing one bigoted thing does not necessarily a bigot make. There's plenty wrong with her question, and I've been exploring it - admittedly, from the harsh side. Ms Fan and I are on parallel tracks here - ignorance isn't malicious, but often has ill consequences.

If it makes anyone feel better, it may be noted that I am equally harsh towards the fiance in yesterday's individual letter. And I do honour at least part of the team spirit motivating the former 18-year-old girls who are sticking up for LW.
74
How is it homophobic, Venn? It seems more like vanity, to me. The boy doesn't want to have penetrative sex with her, therefore he must be gay, because hey, boys of 18 unless they are gay want to have sex with 18 yr old girls.
An ignorant and insensitive attitude, just don't see how it is homophobic.
75
65-MsAnon-- Did I say that? Did I say that holding on to this relationship in college is a bad idea? I believe I suggested the opposite, that maintaining relationships with one's old friends while in college is an exceedingly good idea-- taking for granted, of course, that relationships change and that one should be open to new relationships too.

As for Naive Teen's present or not-present homophobia, she asked a question. She didn't say "I'm sure he must be gay" (which would suggest some amount of homophobia or vanity). Rather she said in effect "I don't know much about what being gay is so I'm going to ask anonymously." She asked and in the same breath considered that her boyfriend might just not be attracted to her. I give her credit for admitting that she doesn't know and seeking to get educated.
76
I feel compelled to defend LW3. She freely admits to being naive and is trying hard to understand what is going on in her love life. Is it not OK to consider the possibility her boyfriend might be gay? It wouldn't be the first time such a situation has occurred (nor the last). She considers other possibilities (1st: "just not attracted to me", 2nd: "is he gay", and 3rd: " Sometimes I wonder if the difference we have libido-wise is a deal breaker"). For an ignorant person, as many have called her, she asks some shrewd questions. Ignorance and naivete are two different things. All she is trying to do is figure out the whole sex/relationship thing in the face of confusing signals from BF. At that age I'm pretty sure I was a lot more clueless than she is.
77
@Crinoline, think we were thinking/writing more or less the same thing at the same time.
78
There was a woman poster this winter who disclosed that PIV sex was wrong for her, her straight relationships were non vaginal. Marcelina caught so much shit for that. This guy seems to be catching none, though he's a lot shadier about it. Saying it's morally wrong, instead of wrong for him, so he doesn't have to explain why he refuses to exchange affection this way. He may have no desire, or his fear may outweigh his desire. Either way Dan's bottom line, a sexless relationship is ok only if sexless works for both people, is right on.

It's offensive to doubt someone's stated orientation. Calling someone closeted is basically calling them a liar. But it's also offensive to neglect your monogamous partner's sexuality. Most people walk away a little more quickly from being constantly rejected especially sexually. I would guess that she's heard that nice people don't leave over something as silly as sexual rejection. Well, it's not silly, sex is supposed to feel great. Romantic couples don't just exist because they procreated together, it's not another name for best friends, the sex part is fun for most people if they can talk about what each other likes and take each other's desires seriously.

CMD - The local part is important to me because of the copy/paste possibilities, but also I don't want to fall completely out of touch with how local hook ups work, I think. Or perhaps the more physically close I think the people are, the less it feels like pure fantasy. I dunno. I simply like it sometimes :)
79
Ms Lava - Follow it out. This has been a relationship that has lasted two years, during which they've done a lot of things. Homosexuality would have to be a fairly weak and feeble orientation for LW to make such an acceptable substitute for a preferred male partner for so long and so many activities. How long do you think either of us could keep up with the demands of being in a full relationship with a woman with only one sex act off the table, and put up a reasonable facade of being happy with the situation? Wouldn't you be at least a bit peeved if someone just assumed you could do it long term without a problem, easy-peasy light and breezy, because it didn't really matter who shared your bed so long as you got your exercise? I've seen objection to this attitude as an anti-bi stereotype; the bias is even stronger towards full monosexuals.
80
Biden @ 72
Yes, I may have been carried away a bit. Thanks for pointing at the different nuances.

Philo @ 78
Think globally, fantasize locally!
81
Ms Phile - We don't have his own words or posts, whereas Ms Marcel wrote at great length, and LW only asked for it once. Now I've no particular objection to her dumping him because he refused to put out. It does strike me, though, as being equally plausible to view the situation as his doing as much as he's comfortable doing as it does a case of deliberate neglect (if the two are viewed as mutually exclusive). I doubt I'd like him very much; I'll grant you that much.
82
A week late to the Soft Serve thread, Camping’s up by 200, man, late for everything these days.

#78 Philo - Agree with all you said, though I must respectfully disagree about Marcelina. She didn’t catch shit for earnestly defending non-PIV sex between consenting adults, she caught shit for writing like a bratty little twat Pop’N'Fresh out of her tenth year of graduate Womyn’s Studies, who was gonna lay the smack down on all these cave dwellers.
When the lines that got roars of applause from previous classroom audiences didn’t work (though most of her words have slid off my brain like a stripper off a pole, leaving a slightly oily residue, I recall ‘Grow Up!’ being employed a time or two, with no discernible irony, like when SeattleBlues tells people with a straight face that they’re being intolerant,) she took herself off, and the world was left no poorer.
Re our 18 y.o. writer, must concur with Zoo that her reaction is just as likely to be ‘what’s wrong with me? rather than finding his bottled water a la Heathers; ”Oh my God! He’s a fag!” It would be interesting if she, or he, would chime in with a bit of his cultural/religious background. Presumably, she’s not just skipping to the next dick because she has feelings for him, nothing wrong with that, but sounds like they have two incompatible models running.
84
No, Mr Hunter, I think it's a case of her having said something with anti-gay and anti-bi implications. Whether LW actually *is* homophobic, biphobic, both or neither is immaterial, except that, if she is neither, there is a good chance she can be educated not to fall automatically into problematic thinking when she doesn't get what she wants, especially when she only asks for it once.
85
@75 I was thinking of the comment where you said that they could remain friends to mean you thought they should break up. My mistake then but I do think they should break up because right now they don't seem sexually compatible and LDR's can be really hard.
86
Holy crap, that first paragraph! I peed a little. Great stuff, Dan.
88
Any-gay or anti-bi implications, Venn? What a stretch. This girl is that, a girl. Silly ideas about males, silly ideas about
being gay..
You and Fan ( on daily thread), are determined to follow this path, go for it. Just a very loose interpretation of what phobic means.
89
Lava @ 70,71
I appreciate your playful wittiness and am glad to hear that genitalia of any kind can be used freely in your part of the world.
In some other areas the P and C words can be deemed as politically incorrect, unless the person using them is equipped with one. Sort of like a black person saying the N word, a Jew telling Holocaust jokes, or me reflecting not-so-positively on the on-going Caitlyn Jenner media coverage hoopla.
For good or bad, “dick” and “prick” are used liberally by everyone.

90
Is the first letter really a fake???????????????
Earlier this week I have raised the possibility that the first letter- girls only, harnesses, lube, who to invite- is a fake one. Only one person did comment about it (and agreed with me.)
But I’m nothing but a part-time-wanna-be, at the very best, and I still wonder what the certified organics may have to say about the issue.
91
CMD. Using the word cunt , by anyone, to describe a woman's
fanny( another one), I don't see any problem. The N word has a very different connotation, surely.
Yes, people use prick and dick very freely, as derogatory terms, I know I do. Anyone using the C word, in a derogatory term- that's the worst worst thing one can say- as I see it.
Why? Is it just sexism, or something else? Fear of the fanny... power of the mother ... The place where we all began.
92
The fanny in our slang is the vagina.
93
My education re trans* issues continues. A show coming up next week on our 4Corners show- respected and well made programme
-Transgender Australia- catchy title, coming up next week.
94
Mr Hunter - I doubt it matters.

Ms Lava - You've been eating too much vegemite.
95
Lava @ 91
"Yes, people use prick and dick very freely, as derogatory terms, I know I do. Anyone using the C word, in a derogatory term- that's the worst worst thing one can say- as I see it."

Not sure I follow. One type of genitalia is a negative term one can use freely, the other is "just sexism," and "fear of the fanny."
Please elaborate.
97
CMD @95: My take is that 'dick' is a very commonly used slang term. People of both genders insult men with it, calling someone a dick or saying something was a 'dick move'.

'Cunt' is a very loaded term, and using it can be (and should be) a 'consider your audience' type word. On very rare occasion, I trot it out as an insult, and if you hear me refer to another woman as a 'cunt', it means I have some deep-rooted angries going on. For example, in 2008, it got quite the work-out ("I don't think there's a more ignorant cunt on the planet than Sarah Palin"). You can definitely count me out as a fan of the way some women (including friends of mine) throw it around as a term of affection for each other. Cue the Tina Fey "Mean Girls" speech...

As a sexual term, I prefer 'cunt' to be used very judiciously. Hell, up until a few years ago, I didn't want to hear it at all. It's not for every day use, but rather the fancy china you bring out for the holidays, as it were. Either myself or a partner saying it in a moment of great passion can be thrilling, but again, know your audience. The first time a guy said it to me, I completely lost the mood.

99
Venn, I do like my Vegemite on toast. It has to look just right, though. Right amount of butter and Vegemite. I'm sort of known for my delicious Vegemite toast.
Throwing down your weapons, then?
100
CMD, my understanding- when someone says, he's a C.../ that is the worst derogatory statement one can say.. Before of course the really bad ones/ murderer/ abuser/ etc.
Calling someone a prick, not so bad. They just a bit annoying. Don't do their shouts at the pub. A knob, is a dickhead-
ie: idiots. Stupid, etc.
So why? Why does C... take the big prize for the worst word.
It has a strong sound to it, is that just because of what it describes?
Because it is a description of female internal genitalia, is that the key?
All of us are connected to female internal genitalia, we started there. Our most primitive feelings began tucked up in a ball of fluid, in there. .
Seeing these ques surely are exhausted, I just throwing it out there.
Why is there such weight on the word cunt.
101
Venn - I'd buy that, except he tried to take the moral high ground about his sexual limits. Slut shaming your girlfriend isn't a gentle letdown kind of rejection that recognizes her needs as important. But maybe she broached it like an asshole.

Cat Bro - I thought Marcelina was well spoken, myself, and I don't remember finding her other ideas very unusual or naive or backward. Loved her avatar. I might have mistaken what people were grumbly about.
102
Mr. Savage, I wish you had Facetimed Ms. Manners, aka Judith Martin, just to capture the look on her face when you asked her advice to No Snappy Acronym. THAT would be worth seeing.
103
@72 #notallwomen eh?

Seriously, open your eyes. How many times has DAN opined the a LW'ers partner might be a closeted gay person for coming up with excuses not to have sex? How many times have commentors on Slog done it? Now you wanna tell me that you don't think it's real? ITS IN THIS FUCKING LETTER, Jesus Christ. You going #notallmen on me?
104
@91 et al: The perceived offensiveness of the word cunt varies by country (pun not intended). In the UK, it's used as freely as fuck and terms that refer to male genitalia. In the US, it's considered the worst insult ever. The US seems to be more feminist in terms of vocabulary and recognising the power that words have. In the UK, men say "Hello love" to women in a manner that is considered friendly and informal, but which in the US would result in sexual harassment lawsuits. At the same time, women in the UK get a minimum of six months of paid maternity leave. So which country is more woman-friendly?

@103: I'm not going to argue with you, the massive chip on your shoulder is obviously preventing you from correctly reading my words ("While I don't dispute the truth of your experience"). Again, I'm sorry you're having this problem. But no one would suggest that sometimes closeted gay people get themselves into straight relationships if it never happened. Dan himself attempted heterosexuality before coming to terms with being gay, which may be why he has suggested this as a possibility in similar situations. If it doesn't apply to you, then it doesn't apply. Putting your dukes down and stopping your witch-hunt for examples to justify your #yesallwomen crusade might improve your love life.
105
Ms Phile - Do you view it as possible that someone with moral objections to X (however improbable those might be if one doesn't object to T/U/V/W) can decline a request for X truthfully without S-shaming one's partner? I'm not sure, and am quite happy to punt this one to the OS crowd.

I thought of two or three things a totally straight person might have decided under pressure to cover up because a truthful answer wouldn't have gone over well, but I wouldn't put any psychic capital into any of them.
107
My friends and I (all women who date men) were just talking about this the other day: how confusing and scary it is when you're a teenager a guy turns you down for sex, because of how society and even 'good' sex ed frames boys' desire. We're constantly hearing from movies and even science class about how guys want it all the time, and want *anyone,* and their biggest problem will be lasting more than a minute.

So then when boys are just as varied and complicated as girls are - when sometimes they're not ready for sex at all, or just not in the mood one day, or try but can't finish because of years of Death Grip masturbation - we assume it's rare and therefore means there's something wrong with us, or him. That's the one thing I wish I'd heard more about as a young teen: that boys can have just as many and varied feelings about sex as you do. It sounds obvious now, of course...
108
Happy Friday everybody! RE: 3rd letter. I was going steady in H.S. until one night, in the heat of passion, I suggested we try PIV sex and G.F. simply began to cry.
I never mentioned that again.
Fast forward 6 months and G.F. says "I am tired of the same old thing. What if we actually "did it?"
This threw me for a loop, instantly disorienting me. We began to have some long discussions about "us" and what we both wanted in life. I recall that it was very profound, I can tell you exactly where and when it happened.
Re: Auntie:...organic berries and wine? Wow!
109
Lava, I know you're Aussie, not a Brit, but would you agree that the Brit use ("cooont") is more used when (if not directed at actual female genitals) towards a guy who's sort of a combination of 'jerk' and 'useless' e.g. "When is your lazy coont of a brother going to get a job?"
Whereas here in the the U.S. it's pretty much only reserved as the nuclear option when referring to a female acting badly. Men here don't call each other 'cunts,' except possibly in the same context as 'pussy,' meaning 'weak and easily taken advantage of.'

#107 Mors, certainly, we could all use more real-life education in our teens regarding sex. It's certainly a tricky thing, as guys, in general, are indeed horny as fuck (when I think of some of the places I jacked off in, middle of the day..), for a number of reasons, they can decline PIV sex.
I know I was fucking terrified of getting a girl pregnant, and the first time a girl told (an uncondomed) me "Just stick it in for a minute," it was like someone letting you drive their car then suggesting that you drive into oncoming traffic for a bit, 'whuuuuuuhh?'
110
@103 I have a chip on my shoulder because of folks like you who think too highly of themselves to accept when you are wrong. here's the deal: it happens. story fucking over. just because it has happened to you, it doesn't exist?
111
@110 "hasn't"

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