Inactive sex drive is totally inaccurate, sorry. (as they have kids and she can manage almost 30 minutes of sex) I guess he means by "never had an active sex drive", his problem is she is not active enough for him.

I can understand if you don't want to be PIV jackhammered for 30 minutes, but there is something to be said for P-technique and V-enthusiasm. If you keep V happy you can go a lot longer than 30 minutes (assuming P can go longer than 30 minutes). Sometimes the journey is the destination. Coming is just a period at the end of the sentence.

Colonel Angus: "If I overstay my welcome, just tap me on the head."

One of the things that induced me to marry Mrs. J was sex (in the early months) where we had to stop for lunch, and then again later for dinner. And no that's not PIV the whole time.

LW-1 I am dating myself here. Anyone here who remembers Dick Van Dyke's brother Jerry on the old D.V.D.Show? Quiet guy until he had a drink then:...BAM! Out came the Party banjo!
My HS buddy was that way. Basically acted down-and-depressed until his first beer:..then he turned into Rodney Dangerfield.
30 years ago he quit drinking, has been a depressed curmudgeon ever since. "Get off My Lawn".
LW-3 I must a spent $500 on various "adult" toys until I found the one my wife loves. Females who are orgasmic do NOT enjoy being pounded on. Not for 10 minutes let alone 30.
You are going to have to study her preferences if you want to be with an orgasmic wife. Stop worrying about what you want:.. make it about her if she is even a little bit interested. If she is not interested than you at least know what the issue is.
LW-2 Isn't there an episode of "Friends" where they address a man who has fallen into "The Friend Zone" with a woman?

These letters made me SO SAD!

I am married to Pot Guy. My reaction to the letter was "Run, lady, Run!" I have two kids with Dr. Jekyl /Mr. Hyde. My long-term friendships are limited to people that have long ago accepted that Hubby is an A-Hole. So, they avoid him or will beat a hasty retreat when he is nasty. This is not a way to live!

Also: Long ago, I was that Beautiful Friend. I enjoyed the company of a funny, charming man - who I loved like a brother. With him, I felt safe and appreciated. That is UNTIL, he lowered the boom and let me know he was hanging out, waiting for sex... then I felt like shit. Betrayed. It was worse than any treatment I'd gotten from any rude guy at a bar. Terrible.

On the marijuana questions: so much is currently unknown, somewhat because the legal status as a schedule I drug has made it very difficult to do research. With more legalization, hopefully we will have some real data instead of just the "the stoners I know are like this" anecdotal info. My approach is similar to Ricardo's, for similar reasons. My anecdotal info: I notice that my sleep patterns take a few days to adjust when I stop, so I sleep lighter and have less uninterrupted sleep. So post smoking irritability may be related to sleep deprivation. That has mostly evened out after 3 days, though, so the guys who become assholes, or abusive, without weed... That's who they really are, dtmfa... Maybe a second chance if they get therapy to deal with those underlying issues. But unless being an abusive asshole is a medical condition, it wouldn't seem prudent to be in a relationship with someone who needed a drug to keep from devolving into that state. Unlike, for example, needing antidepressants. Will we someday know enough about marijuana and possibly psychologically induced asshatery to learn that one might be a treatment or cure for the other? Maybe... But that day is not here yet.

Interesting points Squidgie. No doubt you are correct... and legalization will bring with it a ton more knowledge. One last notion about the weed discussion: Pot isn't for everyone.... just like alcohol isn't. It causes different results for different people.... but... I don't know many stoners who are willing to say that. Its had a negative impact on my sister's life. It is really obvious when she is stoned. I have other friends where i cannot tell at all. Anyway... that is likely where my negativity comes from (or maybe its more a sadness that is coming through on my end...)

@95, 98:

Weed is wonderful in that it makes you forget about being "productive" in the traditional Western sense. I'd go even further and say it makes you realize that being productive is not necessarily a particularly fulfilling way to live your life.

Sometimes not doing anything worthwhile is worthwhile in itself.

I'm inclined to agree with Chairman- that's a nice sentiment, but unless one has a very flexible job or is independently wealthy, maintaining such a life often requires someone else doing all the work to allow them to live a life like that, which seems like a fast way to breed resentment and situations like LW#1.

I've worked with pot smokers, and the main difference between someone indulging in weed the previous evening vs. alcohol was, the drinker might still be a bit hung over, but that's usually easier to work through than being lingeringly high. It might be okay in some jobs I guess, but this was retail, and I got frustrated because (in one incident) I needed help moving some shelves and my coworker was just staring out at the mall entrance. I asked him if he could help and he said he couldn't help because he was "busy contemplating the workings of the universe." Or when I was a customer at a coffee shop and I had to repeat my order three times before the cashier could actually remember it long enough to place the order.

Something else occurs to me as well... when i was enjoying alcohol too much for my own good... my life felt very fulfilling when i was drunk and very unfulfilling when i was not. Most of my heavy pot smoking friends are the same way. So i guess its a philosophical question as to whether the addition of a drug can lead to a fulfilling life... or if it is simply masking the lack of one. (and everything in between...) And ricardo, you seem perfectly capable of having both a productive life (in the western sense) and smoking too much weed (again.. in the western sense... lol).... and i wish i could say the same of every pot smoker i know (of my large circle of friends, family, and acquaintances... i am probably in the minority with not enjoying pot at all.) The one thing all my regularly high friends have in common is a general ennui. When i use the term "regularly" here... i mean friends who smoke weed every single day...or from 5pm friday until bedtime sunday...not the casual smokers who take a hit off a joint at a bbq...or put on a movie a couple times per month and get high. So i guess the parallel to alcohol is similar there too. Though i am in complete agreement with anyone who says pot is nowhere near as dangerous as booze.

sorry... didnt mean to steer the thread away from other conversations... i just find this interesting. Its funny for me to note: i have always had a mild jealousy for my friends who love weed... because nothing seems to make me feel quite the way weed makes them feel (maybe vicodin? lol)

Joining the pot discussion while actually sober (not for long though):
I would define cannabis as a mood enhancer and/or an “experience amplifier.” I still enjoy it some times and it did help me in some areas of my life. I also agree that if an on-going habit of only one of the people involved in a relationship then it is very likely to be a problem as the emotional gap between those involved is very likely to grow.

I’m with those who brought up the capitalist conspiracy theory against legalization. Rest assured, I know people who are on a “green card,” medical pot users, who are high most of the day to some degree but are still functional and productive.

I share some of the sentiment brought up by Ricardo @ 96: “When I smoke, [my translations are] so fluid, so rich in vocabulary and so clever.” I often feel the same when doing something creative while high- cooking, writing, drawing, etc.

But some mornings I still get that “wtf was I thinking” when I see or taste last night’s creations.
Calico @ 116: Just wonder how old was your coworker who was busy contemplating the workings of the universe."
If young and new to pot then that person can be somewhat excused. It is my observation that experienced pot smokers have already figured out that universe stuff and find more fun, earthly things to deal with.
When a pot smoking friend is "busy contemplating the workings of the universe"- what a wonderful term- I know it is likely to be something else they’re high on.

I've smoked weed on only a few occasions, and only a little; it made me relaxed and happy, probably about as much as one or two drinks, but I thought it felt "gentler" than alcohol; it didn't have what feels like the "punch to the brain" that I get when I drink a couple shots of liquor. I do think it should be legal, but I also get annoyed by the "evangelists" who act like weed is the solution to all of life's problems, always.

@118 He was only like 20 at the time. So yeah, age/maturity could be a definite factor there. He had a very strong scorn for drinking alcohol, though, which I thought was a bit hypocritical. I don't *think* he was on any harder drugs, either, as he'd been homeless for a while and had seen what those drugs do to people and really didn't want that to happen to him.

@ 116 - I must have been lucky in that I've always had jobs I could do while high, and so have most of my stoner friends, but I would most definitely call retail one of those fields. When I worked in services, I was much better at dealing with clients when I was high. I never lost my patience, and took their dumb questions in stride.

But I'm close to 50 now, and I haven't been around anyone who "contemplates the workings of the universe" (in any state, whether altered or not) for about three decades. I read books about physics when I want to understand how the universe works, I don't stare at mall entrances. Regular smokers soon grow out of that trippy adolescent phase. Weed becomes part of your daily life, and your co-workers stop noticing if you've smoked or not.

"maintaining such a life often requires someone else doing all the work"

Whatever the reason, if you depend on someone else to that extent, it's not because of the weed, it's because you're a lazy bum, and you deserve to be dumped. Weed is just an excuse. (And personally, I would have reported the co-worker for not pulling his weight.)

I guess that's my fundamental point to sum up my part in the whole discussion: if you use weed as your excuse, whatever it is you're trying to excuse, then weed is not the problem, you are. I would say the same for any intoxicant.

Lady@113. Yes, dr J/ Mr H.. My ex and I didn't really smoke a lot of dope, he did get softer with it- and then off it, he back to his old self. Inconsistent.
Since we split, five yrs ago, I have demanded only from any of my children that come and go living with me, that everyone is kind to each other all the time. It is not always achieved, it is always expected.
That inconsistency is what is so
controlling. I love the emotional safety I now live in..
Leave the fucker, if possible.

Ricardo - " if you use weed as your excuse, whatever it is you're trying to excuse, then weed is not the problem, you are"
I really like this line. I'm a big fan of personal responsibility, & the idea that nothing controls your own decisions but your self.

I don't think it applies to the letter, though, as he seems to deny that there's a difference in behavior when he can't smoke, instead of blame the lack of weed. I'd imagine he believes that weed can't be addictive.

I believe the LW is best served by assuming that her bf has a problem with weed, in that he would like to be high constantly, and likely has little ability to communicate reasonably about weed, consider this a permanent state, and make her decisions from there.

I don't think he's an evil asshole addict, or a helpless victim addict. I think he made a mistake getting addicted to weed (and putting others through his withdraw symptoms) and while his life allows him to deny his problem with weed, he'll likely continue to deny it. It sounds like that makes her miserable so she should leave, but that's her call.

Philo, he isn't listening to her. She tells him how his behaviour effects her.. He makes no effort to hear her and adapt his behaviour.
It's not the dope, it can make one a little cranky etc when you run out.. If you know that's coming, you just prepare yourself for that.
No, this guy is a non hearing partner. She needs to dump him, and find a man who listens, and adapts his behaviour to make sure his partner feels safe, comfortable and loved.

@LavaGirl: You disappear, tell nobody nothing, then waltz back in as if nothing has happened.

Yeah, sorry, internet access was spotty in the Washington State Penitentiary.

@venn: Look at you, still turning heads.

Nearly certain that THCTRAP is dating my ex boyfriend. If it's anything like what I experienced, run. Run fast.

Lava - he isn't listening to her.
Being dismissive of your partner's feelings is quite horrible I agree. As well as blaming your anger on others. I think that she should leave too. But her friends told her the same and... I don't like how she can only think of him as an asshole or perfect. He's pretty flawed, but maybe she is too. Maybe she can make better decisions if she's being realistic; he needs weed and he's not going to take reasonable steps to change this part of himself, even admit he has withdraw. (And he also needs an anger management class and maybe a financial adviser.) It might help him if she left because of the weed as well as the dismissiveness and blaming. And sometimes it helps to list the problems instead of label "asshole". I have some patience for this subject. And I'm sure I have bias.

Good for you Philo, having some patience. I have none left.. All got used up by a man who couldn't/ wouldn't hear.
Not guessing she is perfect, to have the option of a permanently stoned partner, an angry one, or take time out alone.. The latter, only choice for me.
Done with having my feelings ignored, invalidated etc etc.. Especially around anger. No anger in my life anymore.. Bliss.

No home detention, Sean? You must have been sprung big time.

@77, @78, & @80: I can certainly relate. Luckily for me, now that I'm 50+, people have finally stopped with the nonsensical "Oh, but (I,we) think you'd have made a great parent!" bullshit.
I have been happily childless for plenty of my own good reasons, and in my own personal experience, anyone who made the above statement usually was either frighteningly from the Unholy Pro-Baby Church of Whatever It Takes, didn't know me very well at all, or was a hybrid of the two.

We missed you, Sean!

@129 LavaGirl: Bravo--you GO, girl! I have let a lot of anger go this summer, too---chiefly towards my older sibs. Sadly, though, while I enjoyed a kickass birthday, and my brother even called me long distance (me---ME!)----my sis-in-law just wrote me that she and my brother have separated. *sigh* After being married so long. Hopefully, their healing process won't be too unbearably painful, and that everything for my brother and his family works out for the best.

@93 Calico Cat: Thank you for joining us! Your kitty is a sweetie, and lucky to have had you foster her.

@112 sb53: I can relate----Jerry Van Dyke and Rodney Dangerfield bring back memories--especially Rodney as loudmouth developer, Al Czervic in Caddyshack.

Okay---enough posting. Griz needs to log out, shut down her computer, and go play and write some music.

Dr Sean - Oh, please, not that; that's done. He wasn't flirting; he was lonely.

Hum, is it me, or is there a distinct possibility that pot-smoker's girlfriend is a controlling asshole herself? Yes, the Dr.Jekyll-Mr.Hyde switch is a red flag, so is his refusal to acknowledge that he's being mean. But so is her "poor little me" tone and reliance on friends'advice and frankly the language she uses in her letter: he's a meany! I'm SO confused! I'd like to dump him but my friends think he's such a catch! (Wtf?! I can't even begin to wrap my head around that one). How exactly is he "being mean"? And the best one: "Should I make sure his grass supply never runs out"? Err, no? Is this even a real question or just trying to picture herself as the nice selfless party in this relationship? How much more passive-aggressive can you get? Of course I could be wrong, it all depends on details: again, how exactly is he being mean? In my experience passive-aggressive controlling assholes tend to label unwanted behaviors with such vague terms and nobody cares enough to dig for rae facts, because hy, they are the victim right? HUGE red flag, again. Could he have special difficult times, like early morning or just coming back from work, when he needs time by himself (during which he smokes weed, yes, that's what stoners do honey) and she won't allow it (either the weed or the me-time) and so all of a sudden he's the mean one? Hmmmm?

Maybe she is @136, who knows? We are all in this bible study group, attempting to decipher each word and perceived action of the characters as they appear in "The Book of Savage."

Goodweekendeverybody

As someone that was trapped in an abusive relationship (but managed to get out)I would like to offer some advice. #1 Pay attention to the early red flags, it almost ALWAYS get worse not better, dont delude yourself with romantic wishes of what you hope will happen "If only if..." #2 always have a support system of friends you can honestly discuss your problems with. [Abusers will try to alienate you from these people, but dont let them.] And #3 always have a back up plan...have a job, money in your savings account, a working car, and a place you can stay temporarily until you can find an apartment or
room.. if you have these things you can get out before it gets really bad, and you will be in a position of control of your life. If you are dependent on a man, and he is an asshole, it is so easy for him to use his position of
power to abuse you.

Philo, i forgot to include my sons' anger.. It is not the same as being around their father's anger. Similarities, though.
And I do see I need to help them change those patterns, fix up the bad bits of parenting I was there for.
I don't accept their crap, and push back real hard when it comes up. And go thru the words of training, or life philosophy.. To help get them to move beyond. They all want to be good men, whereas their father thought he was already there. Nobody needed to teach him anything.

WOW-----either I pissed off every commenter in the Savage Love thread completely, irretrievably, and permanently, or commenters I did respond to in this week's thread only have limited days / times of day to respond back and simply haven't yet (like sb53) or I truly just CAN'T relate anymore.
Happy weekend Dan and everybody, thanks again for a good, enlightening read, and onto next week's Savage Love.

@139 singlegirl: Right spot on! I've been there, too. Well summarized.

Grizelda, sb53 said he only comes on some of the time.
Sad to hear about your brother and his wife, hope
they can live their seperation with care for each other.

@138. Goodbodyeveryweekend

Letter 1) You shouldn't spend time with people who are mean to you.

Letter 2) Right now is as good as your marriage gets.

Cynara @144 goodindeed

Aunt Zelda- I respond

@19 I'm guessing it's some variation of your second idea. That GGP had a really rough awkward phase, and the 'pretty girl' was one of the few willing to interact with him. I'm guessing he might've also been on the outside of the friends group, allowed to hang around but never really part of it, hence the resentment.

Then she left for college, not knowing that the story goes that she's supposed to realize he's her One True Love. He then did some 'shit-getting-togethering' and is now seeking the relationship he thought he was entitled to.

Couple #2 perhaps aren't all that far off from Graham and Patty Chase, except that Patty and Graham didn't know each other in high school, when Patty was Queen of the School (they changed the date of the prom for her, even though she insists she never asked them to do that) and Graham had acne for years. When we see them in the My So-Called Life present at about forty, Bess Armstrong (whose commentary on the episodes/series really shines) gives a strong continuing performance of Patty's coping with being less stunning and a mixture of feminist (or proto-feminist?) resentment of standards that reward men for aging and near-wonderment about Graham's (apparent?) lack of sense of his own attractiveness. In the second season that never happened, one wonders whether that dynamic might have been at least as important to the breakup Winnie Holzman was planning to write for them as Hallie Lowenthal's poaching Graham (poor Lisa Waltz; apparently all the young members of the cast - except perhaps Jared Leto? - froze her out).

Mr Hunter - "Grown apart" implies that they were once together, doesn't it? That's a stretch at best.

It may be more work to transform the letter to SS (not exactly the way HA wants to operate, but I'll give you a bit of leeway) by making it FF instead of MM, but it feels more believable that way; perhaps you've forgotten women's socialization.

The second letter (which, you'll recall, had Ms Crinoline thinking it was written by a woman until the signature) would have, with a GN signature, opened a door to musings about SS friendships between people with vastly differing SMV and comparisons to friendships to those of similar SMV. One thing I wonder is whether SS friendships between men or women of equal but different types of appeal more closely resemble OS FM friendships than SS friendships between those who appear to be nearly identical twins.

The last bit of 152 was going to be part of a longer 150, but I cut it out as 150 was intended as being mainly in praise of Ms Armstrong.

147-- If that's the case and your interpretation is correct, my attention turns away from GGP and towards the object of his affection/lust. She has my sympathy as being in an untenable position now and having been in an untenable position then. I imagine her as smart, pretty, and popular. Also as someone who is determined to break the stereotype of the beautiful bitch. She's someone who doesn't want to be the sort of snob who will only befriend other beautiful people. She wants to be kind to everyone, to see the best in everyone, who doesn't just want to date the football player, but who is genuinely nice. So she makes friends with the nerdy fat guy and discovers down the road that he wants to pay to fuck her.

Unless ... and here I have to go further out on a limb towards speculation or fiction ... unless he felt like he'd been treated like a pet, like he was someone she hung around with only to show off what a cool unsnobby person she was, like she was metaphorically patting him on the head, calling him cute, and never taking him, his feelings, or their friendship seriously.

149, 152-- Help me with abbreviations. What do HA, GN, and SMV stand for again?

Coming late to the party here, but Dan isn't much of a sex advice columnist (at least for women) if after all these years he can't figure out what everyone in the comment thread figured out instantly - that it sounds like unhappy husband is pumping away at a dry hole for 30 minutes and then blaming his wife for not loving it. Once again, Dan gives his standard advice (he could just cut and paste half the time): "CHEAT." Zero thought given to wife's probably feelings. Getting pretty sick of your boring misogynistic shit,Dan.

Ms Crinoline - Homocentric August, Gendre Neutral and Sexual Market Value.

That's quite a Mary Sue you build up in your first paragraph. As Tennyson wrote about Maud - "faultily faultless". Substitute "kind" for "smart" and I think she just manages to be on the right side of insufferable - or, perhaps, make her a lesbian, which isn't quite trendy enough to be pluperfect.

But I thank you for reminding me of one of the best and most subtle aspects of Ms Armstrong's Patty, that she has no awareness of what a Mary Sue she was (and sometimes, in the present of the series, still slips into being), especially in the episode of the infamous Mother-Daughter Fashion Show when Angela, reconciling, asks her what it felt like to be really pretty in high school. And Ms Armstrong's exchanges with Mary Kay Place are superb ("Camillie, you were not that overwe-" "Paaat-ty, I was faaa-aat!").

Can we sort of split the middle here - good intentions that aimed beyond her capacity and sometimes slipped into bad treatment of the proles and helots? It's not as if I want to make her a Heather (although, if he'd been a she, I'd have been reminded of Green Heather at Red Heather's funeral - "I prayed for the death of Heather Chandler many times, and I felt bad every time I did it, but I kept doing it anyway. Now I know... you understood everything - praise Jesus! Hallelujah!").

If the last letter was 2 women, I'd lean toward divorce over any chance of working things out. Right now I'd guess that they both expect her to enjoy the way he wants sex, instead of getting to know what each other likes, due to the "men like sex, women don't" cultural cliche. That wouldn't be a problem with an SS couple.

Maybe they are just ignorant, instead of unattracted to each other, as I would assume in an SS letter.

Thanks Venn, not at all sure what you are on about, it's entertaining, though.
LW3, doesn't say he pumps her for 30 minutes, he says she only lasts 30 minutes. One assumes, a little foreplay is attempted. If his wife has been uninterested in sex since day one, and she breaks down every time he mentions the subject of sex.. I see no hope into the future for these two. Why has he stayed this long? What has he been waiting for? Why won't she talk about the issue with him?
She wants a husband and no sex, he wants a wife with good sex..
One of them has to shift or both of them have to jump, or just keep putting up with the story..

@154, 156 I think the problem is that we know nothing about this girl, only that GGP finds her pretty. And that is ninety percent of the of the problem since I get the feeling GGP knows nothing about her either. Only that he feels she 'owes' him sex and would be better off enjoying the vacation on his own.

Venn your posts remind I need to rewatch 'Heathers', It's one of my favorite movies and that's one of my favorite scenes. Right up there with 'I love my dead, gay, son!' which manages to be hilarious, touching and heartbreaking at the same time.

156-Mr. Venn-- Split the middle. I like that. Yes.
Maybe a rewrite of my MarySue character is simply: It's hard to be an adolescent no matter what you aspire to and what you decide, hard to see the long term consequences of your actions, even the well-intentioned ones.

Hi Auntie WE had my G- baby with us for the weekend, so little "me-time" to play with my pals on SL.
Writing music are we? That sounds like fun! What instrument do we compose on?

@143 LavaGirl: It is really sad for them after 30 years together. I am hoping everything works out for the best, but I've gotta say--ouch! You're right, too, about sb53: He only has Fridays free to post comments.
@146 CMwannabe: Thanks!
@162 sb53: Sounds you and yours had a fun weekend with your grandchild! I play piccolo, C and Alto flutes, and piano. Am currently back to writing my second of four short pieces for flute choir and piano, and am about to make computer entries for the first written movement of my second symphony to save to pdf. That should keep this long-haired galoot out of trouble for a while.

And now, for Hunter's Weekly Wrap-Up........

Mr Hunter - The only thing I had to say about the first letter was HA-slanted; as a lifelong non-drinker, non-drugger and non-smoker, that was the only thing I could find to say about it. I doubt Mr Savage's deliberations would ever have anything to do with me.

I can agree with a view that it was a little unfortunate that both other letters fed a good deal more into the OS/SS Divide.

L1- It is rare, but some people get psychologically dependent on pot, feel the need to be high all the time and get real moody when sober. But yes, she should dump him. It's not up to her to fix him.

L2- What a douche! Reminds me of the guy in that one bar who said he wasn't hitting on me, then a few moments later. "Can I buy you a drink?" "No." "Can I buy you a drink?" "No." "Can I buy you a drink?" "No." Of course, if he had admitted he WAS hitting on me, I still would not have left with him because I was not looking and not interested, but he would have figured that out sooner.

L3- what, no toys to recommend to try first?