Erica - if those are my only two choices... naturally.... she should do whatever she needs to do to come. However... you keep referring to fantasy... and this letter is about moving fantasy into reality. There IS a diff... no? I think you and I have the same general attitude about this. I don't disagree with anything you've written...

And you lost me at centaurs. That analogy fails horribly when you replace "women" with mythical creatures that literally cannot be fucked.

@205 it's not clear she ever asked to sleep with women.

Re fantasy
This is a great topic for tonight's date night. I am going to relate this weeks SL debate about fantasies and see where my miss N falls on these fault lines. When I do so she may refer back to my only-once-expressed Sofia Vergara fantasy. Any bets on whether she tries this?

Erica- don't you think "we've exhausted the topic of bringing someone else into our relationship" is enough to imply that YES... she did ask to sleep with women? Seems strange to me that they would be discussing her bisexuality enough to "exhaust" the topic if she had no desire to actually sleep with a women in real life.

@209: Eudaemonic @101 puts his finger on the distinction. Either:
>> "I've asked her over and over for years if she felt compelled to cheat, and she kept saying no, and I finally stopped asking," >>

Or
>> "she kept bringing up [the idea of opening the marriage], but has finally agreed to stop,">>

@209 either one could be exhausting.

or.... they both agreed to talk out the possibility of having a threesome...but neither could compromise enough to make it feel safe and still exciting, etc.

i had a girlfriend who was bisexual... and she wanted to have a threesome... but one of the conditions was that i couldn't fuck or lick the other woman... so i said no... as the imbalance seemed preposterous to me... (not saying this is JOE's scenario...lol... seems pretty farfetched)

@JibeHo: Then how do you explain my fantasies seandr?

Actually, with your comment I'd like to amend my official response to this letter to the following:

I have no idea, dude, good luck!

Anyway, my comment to EricaP was simply that a reasonable person can worry that such fantasies might reflect something significant, even if it turns out they don't. Mind reading is a difficult business - sometimes people struggle to read their own minds - and it's not like there's an abundance of reassuring information out there suggesting that fantasies that transgress the sexual orientation of a relationship are common and nothing for a monogamous partner to worry about.

Or maybe this is common knowledge in the Lesbian section of the bookstore? I should probably visit that section more often.

I'm not happy with my vibrator analogy (@195) because if a guy is freaked out by the vibrator, there's no way to hide it during sex.

So instead, I'll compare insecurity over fantasies-during-sex to insecurity over porn use. If a straight woman gets insecure at the idea of her male partner using porn, she can reasonably look for a man who will appear to have no interest in porn (and who will hide his actual porn use).

Similarly, if someone is insecure about their partner's potential fantasies during sex, they can reasonably look for a partner who doesn't discuss their fantasies. And then shut down any attempts to broach the subject by saying that's TMI.

I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who either don't have threatening fantasies or don't feel like discussing their threatening fantasies, so it doesn't cut down one's dating pool very much.

But it does cut me (and people like me) out of one's dating pool. For whatever that's worth.

Chairman, they may have talked about another woman coming on board, and exhausted that topic( like how hard is it to do rather than talk? I'm guessing a few dampeners thrown on that one.
Maybe by both of them).
And fantasies that are scenarios rather than specific people seem to be the best way for me to go. I have tried to think of a specific person, it just doesn't work.
Good one Erica, re being up front in your needs. I'd hate to be asked to give up my free form fun( fff), and if some guy ever did, I'd be happy to move him along.

@164: "Who the fuck do you think you are
Mr E?"

A festering morass of misery and bitterness?

sb53@208. I'm not betting on what you and your wife talk about. Why not ask her if she has some hot stories she tells herself .
And Sofia is a bit of a honey. Though I read somewhere her guy wants Babies and she is in her 40s with an adult son.
And she's maybe going to have them(?)cause you know he wants them.

Sean; Lesbian section of the bookshop? Those were the days. Bookshops.

@seandr - Given the brevity of the letter and the questions that remain unanswered (nocute's list is a great start), I don't know what to tell the LW. We don't know when the wife came to the realization. We don't know what the form or tone of their conversations on the subject have taken. We don't know how strong the wife's urges are. The reason I stepped into the conversation was to second Erica's contention that fantasies that can't be fulfilled by one's partner aren't necessarily threatening to the relationship, and that for at least Erica and I, they are necessary for us to cross the finish line.

I hope I don't offend anyone reading when I say (as I have in a previous thread) that I don't date bisexual women for this very reason. The insecurity would be too stressful for me. I came by that rule the hard way - by having my heart crushed.

I definitely feel for the LW.

Do you really think she is bisexual JibeHo? I'm starting to feel not.
She has fantasies, you ever brought a fantasy to life? No, I didn't think so.
That's the beauty of fantasies.
All in one's head.

Sean, I think the trick is to look at why one's partner has a certain fantasy coming up.
In my fantasy with women, often a man is onside to do his part, not always, I enjoy most fondling her breasts. And she is often a different sort of woman to me. You can relate to fondling nice breasts, I'm guessing?
I think also it's my mind taking in other aspects of femininity.

I remember Dan telling a guy to masturbate every day as he was going without sex. Good advice.
My sex would dry up without fantasy. My few ventures back out into the male world have taught me I'm not ready yet.
With my mind I can fuck in all sorts of fun scenarios. Since I've incorporated young men in my fantasies, some paid some not, I enjoy young men's sexuality in a different way.
Those erotic moments I mentioned on another thread to you Sean. Sex Food, I call it.
I am discreet, though men do pick up when a woman looks at them that way.
In conclusion: yes I don't have any Other by my side to go mad at me, and that is now how it's going to be.
Love me, love my fantasies.

Is it a standard thing in a relationship to be like "are you kinky yes/no?" on the first date and then hold the other person to their response for the rest of their lives now? I would think that anyone who reads Dan would know that everyone is a little kinky in some way and that kinks change over time. The real question isn't "why does my guy have these clamps?" it's "why am I so uptight about the possibility that my man is not vanilla as fuck? if he wanted me to clamp his nips, who the fuck would that hurt? Besides his nips?"

@165 Philo - it seems you equate emotional intimacy (in this thread anyway) with boring...or routine... or predictable... when it comes to sex. For me... i just look at it that sex and intimacy are very intertwined for me... and i could not possibly stay in love with someone i was not fucking... nor could i really enjoy fucking someone without love. I say that second part a bit lightly... in that when i was younger... i had many encounters with women with whom i was not in love...but the potential was there..and that made it worthwhile to me. The moment a women is demoted from "possible love" to "impossible love" is also the moment that i lose all sexual interest in her. For me, even a one night stand pulls at my heart a bit...unless i totally regretted it via beer goggles or similar... You are implying that you enjoy drama in your sex life? seems that is kinda what you are saying...but maybe i am misunderstanding a bit...

@189: "Sharing one's fantasies to me means a strong intimacy between the couple, not a sign of diminishing interest."

It's all a matter of degree. Wording it as "Sharing one's fantasies" strikes me as roughly the opposite end of the continuum from "I need to think about this thing that doesn't involve you, while fucking you, or else I can't come. Ever." Just my opinion, but I suspect that what LW's wife actually said to him was somewhere in the middle of those two.

@195: On this we will have to agree to keep our own opinions. Personally, if my wife confessed to me that the only** way she could orgasm during sex with me was by thinking about someone other than me, I for one would take that in her having comparatively little or no interest in the person in bed with her, namely, me. You can insist that's not the right way to take it, based on your experience, but that's my hypothetical emotional reaction to hypothetically hearing that.

(*again, LW's wife did not say "only," she said "often," which is a different thing.)

"But that's because of your insecurities, rather than because I'm not interested or aroused by you."

You are fighting very hard to avoid admitting that you are not aroused very much by your partner, but aroused much MORE by someone else. Aroused sufficiently more that you can come due to thoughts of them, while you can't due to the actions of, let alone thoughts of the person actually in bed with you. The closest your disclaimer-cum-explanation can come to an honest reality is "Of course I am aroused by you honey. Just...insufficiently. ...unlike, say, Ted Cruz."

@194: Yes, that was the point I was trying to make there. Two points, actually:

1) to LW: Of course you do it too. Admit it.

2) to LW's wife: you know your husband does it, because that's how brains work, but if he made a point of telling you to your face that he "often" imagines fucking the neighbor in order to be able to come while he's fucking you, that admission would tend to deflate your assessment of how sexy he finds you. Admit it. That's not "sharing," it's "undiplomatic."

(oh crap, a missed closure tag. Did the TSARY ever fix that?)

@226: You're not familiar with my body and you're putting incorrect words in my mouth. I can tell the difference between sex with someone who turns me on (such as Mr. P.), and sex with someone who doesn't.

When having sex with someone who turns me on (such that I get wet, and my nipples are hard, and I'm flushed, and I feel hot and excited and very very much want an orgasm), even then, I can't get "over the finish line" without added help, usually from both vibrator and fantasy.

But it's okay, you can tell yourself whatever stories you want about your partner's fantasies, as long as you don't also badger your partner to admit those fantasies to you. I'm sure your insecurities are clear enough that your partner(s) will keep their scary fantasies to themselves.

@avast, out of curiosity, how often have you desperately wanted orgasm and been unable to get there and had to give up in yearning frustration because everything went numb from trying too hard?

You got a sexy neighbour, Avast?
It depends. If the partner sees where the neighbour hot, then the fantasy doesn't have to be threatening.

Also, there is no possible real situation which is just-like-fantasy enough to mean that I wouldn't also need the fantasy. The fantasy is not Where-I-wish-I-really-were right now. The fantasy is an-exciting-story-I-tell-in-my-head-to-prevent-my-anxieties-from-obstructing-my-orgasm.

The fantasy is a narrative tool for making my body work, not a wish to change anything real in my circumstances.

The fantasy is a mental vibrator.

avaist @87/227 Now that we've started talking out our fantasies, yes, Mr. P. has his own, and during PIV we tend to talking through his fantasies (because he's the one likely to come from PIV), and I love the intimacy of building these stories with him.

When a couple commit to be monogamous together, that is a big gift they give to each other.
Why pretend that somehow the rest of the world doesn't exist, sexually.
Only have eyes for you, Is just not true. So a couple, to keep it real, need to let the other play a bit, if not with their body , then with their mind. Sharing those mind stories is just reminding each other that yes, you're both alive and humming.

lava - i can only speak for myself...but my fantasies don't include other people than my partner unless i am done with my partner... truly. My fantasies are all the kinky stuff i'd like to be doing TO my partner... not to someone else. I am happy to allow other people to fantasize however they choose... i see no point in policing fantasy. BUT... we seem to have gotten rather far off the original topic here... namely that this LW's letter is about fantasy becoming reality (at minimum- his fears of fantasy becoming reality). He did NOT write in to ask Dan how to get his wife to stop having these fantasies...

@77, Part II: FUCK---! Can't we just officially declare war on the criminally insane GOP and Tea Reich now? I shudder to think what is next upon reading that the recently ousted John Boehner was the GOP voice of Congressional reason.

@236 Chairman: Fantasy. Okay.....thanks. Maybe that will help rock me to sleep tonight......

Since this is shaping to be fantasies revealed week I’d like to share with the public the letter I just sent Dr. Aisabu.
In case you wonder, check #119 in last week’s thread
http://www.thestranger.com/columns/savag…
Dr. Aisabu is also the one who showed the pope how to mess with Lava’s phone.

I’ll let you all know once I get a response…..

Dear Dr. Aisabu,
Thanks for getting back to me and giving me so many options.
I wonder if choice number two, “Return my partner back spell,” can be modified into something like, “make sure my partner does not return back spell.”

You see, I have lately started fantasizing about someone I’ve been with for some time. I know doctor, everyone say the same. Well anyway the issue keeps coming up, and in many of those scenarios I’m always submissive to her to some degree or another.

I’m not sure I want this to really happen; certainly not as a full time arrangement, and I seriously doubt she would like to get back together let alone engage in what I have in mind for her (although she and all readers here should know that being the thoughtful person that I am the script leaves the leading lady plenty of room to maneuver.)

We still run into each other on occasion, and I wonder if your gods along with the saturated power of your ancestors can do something that will guarantee I’ll never be tempted to pursue her and that even if I did she will reject any such inappropriate contact with me right away.

Also, how long is your guarantee good for?

Thank you doctor.

That's great Chairman. You just starting on the parenthood path though. It changes things. Not saying you will change the content of your fantasies over time just saying don't freak out if you do. It doesn't mean loving one's partner any less.
And I don't think this is off topic.
Talking about experiences and ideas around fantasy in marriage is giving JOE some infomation I hope he can use.
And where does anyone suggest she stop having these fantasies? I sure haven't.

Chairman, we could pay CMD's Magic man, to cast a spell on her so she'll never ever stray. Just not sure there's enough money in the kitty.
The only person JOE can work on is JOE. We can't help him stop her acting act a fantasy of going with women. Nor would I want to. If the urge is strong, and she's upfront with him about that.. Then I wish her well.
From the contents of the letter, it doesn't seem she is going to go that way. They have recommitted.
JOE could just relax a bit about it all, get into the grovve..
Funny. Women get into trouble cause their sex dies, here we have a woman who explores her sex and what.. Everybody panics that she's out on the street flashing her fanny to every passing woman? I was going to say dyke, is that still ok? I think it's a great word.
Sorry JOE, my magic powers do not extend to stopping your wonton wife being wonton.
You however, could change how you experience the situation. Or leave.

A little something to lighten the mood as a sign of appreciation for the unicycle in the Tour de France:

Ms Cute - I have just remembered a question I forgot to ask a couple of weeks ago (there's a bonus if you can guess the question before you see it). I wanted to consult your hunch about the 23-year-old-woman LW who had thought herself asexual (for "many" years) until, having taking a Gender Studies class, she wrote to consult Mr Savage about beginning to explore her interest in torturing the genitalia of comely and effeminate men. I got so annoyed by her whining about being "trapped" in the closet and what I perceived to be YGG cheerleading in the thread (which I admit was disputed, most valiantly by Ms Rand) that I never asked you the vital question (which I wish I could put after a jump, but you've likely guessed what it is):

Is it your hunch that this is a case of ex duco or in trudo? (Or are you inclined to call this correlation without causation from either direction?)

Yet another day #3:
Fantasies generate lots of different emotions. I did misunderestimatinglyated the topic in my end of day one report. I feel terrible about it.
Raw emotions keep getting raw every now and then. Genital lines have somewhat blurred. People know what they know. Some are not sharing their fantasies but not because they’re selfish. Others share because they’re not selfish. Both groups may harm themselves or others in the process. Hunter does not fantasize. Some wish he did. Some people have lots of fun. Most wish they had.
Nocute was right. Our UK correspondent is also vying for recognition. She finally gets a bi-line.

Deep CMD, real deep.
Mock all you like , according to studies done by a Finnish guy.. In Women over the last 50 yrs , desire and ability to reach orgasm has declined. More couples report living in celibate marriages ( this guy has been doing research since the 70s), and it seems more younger women are complaining of loss of desire and issues with lubrication and reaching orgasm.
So my dear CMD, it's a war we fight. Keeping our girly bits working.

@229-30: "But it's okay, you can tell yourself whatever stories you want about your partner's fantasies, as long as you don't also badger your partner to admit those fantasies to you."

If you've been paying attention, you would know that badgering those fantasies out of my partner is probably the last thing I would do. My read on the letter is that LW wasn't the one badgering his wife to tell him all about this, either.

"out of curiosity, how often have you desperately wanted orgasm and been unable to get there and had to give up in yearning frustration because everything went numb from trying too hard?"

It happens. Not constantly. Overstimulation is a thing, after all. Again, the degree to which the whole thing may or may not be objectionable to LW and people who think like him hinges on just how often is meant by "often."

BDF [193] - Tossed? But that's why he wrote! She's agreed to jettison her desire for a one-off fling with another woman, to satisfy her desires, because he's not happy with it.
He would not be the first to write in to bemoan some exciting non problem. He doesn't say that she asked to be with another woman. She came out as bi and fantasizes about other women. It's unclear who wanted to make this fantasy into a triad or threesome reality (bringing another woman into their relationship), or why negotiations fell through, if there was enough interest on both sides to keep them going for years.

Chairman [224] - it seems you equate emotional intimacy (in this thread anyway) with boring...or routine... or predictable... when it comes to sex.
Again, I think it means closeness, along with mutual understanding, trust, comfort and safety.

i could not possibly stay in love with someone i was not fucking... nor could i really enjoy fucking someone without love.
Here it seems like you are referring to needing love instead of emotional intimacy. I have too many thoughts about love, and it's defined so broadly, in so many senses.. it's difficult to speak very deeply of love. I will say that I love people I haven't wanted to fuck at all, family for example. I've fallen in love with a guy who wouldn't fuck me yet, I loved him for a year before he changed his mind. I've stayed in love for years without fucking my love interest. And I've enjoyed fucking people who I have not loved or even known very well. Establishing closeness with sex, instead of requiring it to have sex, can be fun for me too. Both loving without sex and sex without romantic love have made me a happier person.

You are implying that you enjoy drama in your sex life?
If drama means emotional intensity, then yes. I have tried to imply only that I like to maintain access to great feeling sex. I don't think that one nicely stimulating sex routine could stay satisfying over time, for me. It could simply be the way that I think of my sex life, like a mini-relationship, a living thing that needs nurture to grow, that either changes or stagnates and dies. To change, conflict management is required, unless you have a perfect match, no conflicts of interest. I have not met a magically perfect match for me though. And I think that I've probably had more intense sex as a result of the inescapable conflicts of relationships anyway.

Also, you never answered my question; why did you expect to be cheated on from declining to fulfill another's fantasy? Or did I misinterpret?

Re orgasm & fantasy,
I seem to have a few different modes at orgasm time. Either I'm trying not to come and fail/decide it's time. Unattractive imagery as fantasy can help me last longer. Or I think it's time to come, and sometimes I imagine some stimulating material to make it happen. Or we're on almost the same page the entire time, and we come at the same time, or one sets the other off so that it's nearly simultaneous. I think that fantasy would worsen my experience in this last case.

Also, I don't think it's very straight to fantasize about same gender people. If I fantasized about women, I'd identify as bicurious, homoflexible, bi, or gay, depending on the intensity of the attraction to men vs women, and if I considered actually hooking up in real life. But I've also heard about "straight" guys sucking cock, so "straight" women who think about hooking up with other women probably shouldn't surprise me so much.

@237: Not so long as Citizens United Not Timid is constitutional and the Koch brothers are allowed to shape the political structure of the US.

@247: "Also, I don't think it's very straight to fantasize about same gender people."

It's not an all or nothing binary proposition, moreso a continuum.

Undead - It's not an all or nothing binary proposition, moreso a continuum.
I agree. I think the spectrum goes straight/bicurious/homoflexible/bi/heteroflexible/straight-curious/gay. But I don't understand why people identify as straight instead of at least bicurious, if they are sexually excited by thoughts of both genders. It seems like the same sort of inaccurate self description as men who have had years of sex with women, coming out as gay instead of bi. It seems biphobic.

More re fantasy:
I think that fantasies can be a sex enhancing tool, like porn, like vibes. I think that you can become reliant on all of these to orgasm, much like a gorilla grip. I don't think this makes anyone a bad person.

Although I'm not sure anymore that Dan's cold turkey Rx is the best when you develop a sex crutch. I think that using your crutch to approach orgasm, but denying yourself orgasm until a different sensation produces it, may work better. If arousal turns to frustration, take a break to reboot and try again. Because when I'm really turned on, suddenly almost everything that used to feel bad or blah feels great, and I think that state (plateau) can be used to retrain how you orgasm.

Lava @ 244
Apparently fantasies are such hot topic that even an attempt to summarize the discussion in a somewhat lighter, friendly manner can get you in trouble.
“People know what they know” often gets in the way. “More couples report living in celibate marriages” is also what I encountered in my last years of marriage and it wasn’t my choice. Someone who writes here on occasion, another penis-equipped person around my age or older, had expressed his frustrations as well.
Did the Finish guy conclude the men are responsible for the sexless marriages?

I’m sure there are “younger women [who] are complaining of loss of desire and issues with lubrication and reaching orgasm.” But it also seems like my two daughters an their female friends have way more going on for them than I and/or my male AND female peers had in our time. Much to my delight they also take advantage of it!

Does everything have to be divided and fought along genital lines????? If sex positive people could unite, regarding of genitalia, and tackle the real issues that withhold human sexuality the world could be a much happier place.

Should be "regardless" in the last sentence. And as Undead pointed out the Koch brothers are some of our enemies, regardless of genitalia.

Philophile @246
>> I seem to have a few different modes at orgasm time. Either I'm trying not to come and fail/decide it's time. >>

I don't think I've ever tried not to come, except a couple of times when I was supposed to ask permission before coming, and so I had to manage getting to the point (with fantasy) of falling-over-the-edge and then stay there long enough to process language and ask.

>> we come at the same time, or one sets the other off so that it's nearly simultaneous. I think that fantasy would worsen my experience in this last case.>>

I've never had that "nearly simultaneous" experience, personally. Sounds nice.

Philo - "Also, you never answered my question; why did you expect to be cheated on from declining to fulfill another's fantasy? Or did I misinterpret?"

I didn't expect to be cheated on. What it was for me was a sudden realization that the day would likely come (sooner than later) where one of us would call it quits on the relationship. When you are otherwise happy with someone... that realization can cause a great deal of discomfort. It wasn't about any fantasy. I am pretty willing to explore my partner's fantasies. Even the bisexuality one for this particular LW. (i empathize with him because HE is stressed by it..not because i would be). I will add that on occasions where a fantasy revelation caused me a bit of fear was in a few relationships where i already HAD that fear due to a nagging feeling that my partner was holding back.... if that makes sense. Sometimes a revelation from a partner is expected (not the content... but the feeling that your partner isn't in fact being entirely open with you... so you wait for them to feel comfortable (if you are healthy) or you wait for the other shoe to drop (if you are not so healthy...haha). Sometimes a revelation is entirely unexpected - like for this LW with his wife's bisexuality - or suppose his wife told him her biggest dream in life was to go live alone in India for 2 years with no contact with the outside world. That would understandably make him wonder where the hell he fit in in her mind...

The parallel i mentioned in an earlier comment in this thread in my own life was with my ex wife. She had suffered sexual trauma as a teenager. Our sex life ran hot and cold. I tried very hard to put my needs aside enough to accommodate her needs with regard to healing. She was very reticent to indulge any fantasies of mine. Then one day... she says (during a conversation)... that girls like to have their asses licked... That was how she revealed her bisexuality to me. It hurt. Not because there were women involved...but because i had been working under a set of rules that had suddenly changed. It felt like there was a stranger in front of me. It felt like the rug had been pulled out. It also felt like her willingness to accommodate her partner's sexual needs actually existed...just not for me. I wondered if i could ever be the partner she needed. I saw a therapist to help me get over these feelings of mistrust... and it did help a lot.... and the above was not the reason for our divorce. I even contemplated writing Dan at the time... but (and this is why i never unilaterally dismiss Mr Eud)... i would have been crushed if my letter provoked a bunch of people defending my wife with no regard for my feelings... as though her past sexual trauma (and likely PTSD) completely eradicated any of my feelings. That does seem to happen quite a bit.... where one party's feelings are dropped completely due to the circumstances of the other party's feelings. I still have a ton of compassion for my ex. I wish i could've helped make her feel whole. I still have love for her. (hope my fiance never reads my sl posts...lol). But i had to move on. So i did.

and philo - "Establishing closeness with sex, instead of requiring it to have sex, can be fun for me too"

i agree with this completely. I guess i was trying to say that sex establishes closeness for me. That is precisely what i mean by sex and intimacy being intertwined. Chicken/egg i guess. If i have sex with someone and no closeness gets established... the odds of us having sex again are very very low. And i have only been talking about romantic love.... i certainly love my family... and have no need to fuck them. hahahaha (i almost couldnt write that...)

Chairman @254
>> one day... she says (during a conversation)... that girls like to have their asses licked... That was how she revealed her bisexuality to me... her willingness to accommodate her partner's sexual needs actually existed...just not for me. >>

This is a stupid question (since I'm sure there was much more context at the time), but are you sure she was saying: "When I'm with women, I lick their asses even though I don't want to, because I care about their experience"?

Rather than: "I wish you would lick my ass"?

That snippet turned into a longer conversation.... but i shortened it too much i see.... trust me... she wanted me nowhere near her ass.... as she made that abundantly clear a million different ways (with words and pulling me away, etc)... nor did she want to be anywhere near my ass... as she made THAT abundantly clear too...

never said my internal response was rational... just that it made me feel that way....

Thanks for explaining, Chairman. It does sound like she didn't care about your feelings...

ChairmanOfTheBored:
Thank you for so courageously sharing your story. I understand your attitude regarding your need to be at least somehow present in your partner's fantasies, your requirement for connection and closeness and vulnerability completely--I did even before you gave your story about your first wife's revelation and how it was couched and what it meant to you.

@243: Gee, CMDwannabe, while I always like to be right, I'm not sure what about in this case. Would you mind elucidating?

@232: Mr. Ven, I recall that letter in a holistic way, as I found it phenomenally boring and didn't bother to read it too closely or more than maybe twice. But based on my memories of it, it's a clear-cut case of in trudo, big time!

Ms Cute - I rather thought so as well, but one can always use a confirming opinion.

Thanks nocute and erica. It was all a very hard time in my life. For many reasons.

And erica...(258)... i think my ex cared very much about my feelings... she was just incapable of ever putting them before her own without imploding emotionally.... It was not an easy partnership to navigate without losing one's self...

@250: "But I don't understand why people identify as straight instead of at least bicurious"

Framing? Rounding down? Trying to sum up your "essential self" is difficult, and it's less awkward to specify "straight" versus "bicurious", which may be seen as insincere or flakey with the lack of active intent?

@251.CMD. I just came across an article I'd kept to read from a few weeks ago, from a national
Newspaper. Round the time of the AM thing, written by a woman who is a therapist. And no, no blame was put onto men. The author, was talking of it in the context of the Difference between men and women's desire, and how the gap
Is widening. One interesting piece of data, that women who don't live with their partners, seem to maintain their desire better than women who cohabit. Other researchers were referenced in the article. The Finnish guy's
name is;
Osmo Kontula.
I was just playing with you. I've enjoyed your daily wrap ups.
Philo, I still identify as straight even though I've had fantasies about women. If I went and acted on these fantasies, then I'd upgrade to Bi.

Isn't that what we try to do here, CMD? Sex positive people of all genders talking about how to keep themselves alive sexually.

Maintaining sexual authenticity over years in a LTR, isn't that what JOE is struggling with?
I see this issue as like when the airlines people tell you to attach your own oxygen mask first. JOEs wife is trying to maintain her sexual authenticity.
She hasn't stepped outside the marriage, the impulse maybe not strong enough. as Avast said, it does depend how often she has these fantasies. I don't invalidate JOEs responses, yet I also see his wife is being true to her sexuality. One must be true to oneself, first.
If the fallout is the relationship goes, then that's how it is. The fallout could also be that both parties expand, let the other breathe a bit.

nocute @ 260
“while I always like to be right, I'm not sure what about in this case. Would you mind elucidating?”
I referred to you and venn in my end of day 1 report @ 86: “Meanwhile on Yom Kippur a Jewish lady from the bay area that likes to go commando has crossed the line and became a strong advocate for Mr. JOE. Venn seems to like it, or so she thinks.”

Venn reassured his position the other day @ 242 and I thought I’ll include it in my end of day 3 report @ 243, tying it with our ex pat friend across the Atlantic.
For artistic reason only the first draft of that paragraph went something like: “Nocute was right, it wasn’t my writing. Our UK correspondent is also vying for recognition. She finally gets a bi-line.”
But then I thought that implying I thought venn’s comment was directed at me would get me in trouble, hence the omission of “it wasn’t my writing.”

I still got in some mild trouble for different reasons, but that doesn’t change the fact that I also like our friend across the pacific.

CMD. Yeah, me too. Fan is one cool chick.
JOEs letter shows us why people keep their authentic sexual self away from their partners. Cause their partner will get jealous and one feels bad.
So in a LTR one either represses impulses, or keeps them private.
And there you have the disconnect.
If we accepted the other and wanted and encouraged them to, was going to be fully and authentically in their life, in all areas, and shared some or most of that with us, and we did the same.. How cool would that be.
No lies. No cheating. Two people who have graciously given over exclusivity
Sexually to each other, made a Big Big decision to rear children together, who could share their own sexual journey.
Each of them free to tell the other what happened for them today, sexually.
With the world outside.

And I'm not talking about being off fucking people. I'm talking about those human connects we have everyday with others, who are not our spouse. We feed each other all the time as humans, and that includes sexually, if one has it still working. And it is life affirming to connect.
Marriage should not be a prison, in any shape or form. Yet. If felt like that to me a lot of the time.
Rearing kids, yes, would test an arch angel.. And that causes feelings of panic often. Wtf have I signed up for. That's different though. One's blood.

Isn't Fan across that other ocean( they all look the one big bit of water to me)?
Whatever.

You guys all on Saturday afternoon as I sit in Sunday morning.
I remember my husband closed down my attractions to other men, with his jealousy. Yet if he'd bothered to look at these men, he would have seen parts of them developed in areas he was undeveloped in. That's what I was attracted to. Men with differently developed qualities, than my husband. His jealousy was very ugly. Very controlling.
Hard to accept that I let him control me so much, and yet I fought every step of the way. Picking him to work thru my relationship with my mother. Both of them, narcissists.
Yet we made these five strong humans together.

So Australian rugby league fans, who don't live in Queensland?
A Queensland only Final. And we only have two teams!
So southern brothers and sisters, Go Qld.

No. That's three teams. Sorry Gold Coast, I momentarily forgot about you.
Not the best season.

Marriage is not a place where everyone freezes on their wedding day.
Closes the door, sits in a chair and let's it all just go.
I realize now I was really too lazy to muck into the deeper work in my marriage. It's just my womb stayed catholic.
People evolve in and out of marriages. Grow up and grow old. If they lucky. So marriage, to be authentic and allow all members in the family to grow,
is blocked if people keep their sexual life to themselves. It is a part of our development, teaching us things about ourselves. We are usually attracted to people we would like to be similar to.
Attractions don't have to be acted on, if that's the contract you have.. They do occur and they are real.
They can be transformed into friendships, and the qualities admired in that person brought into the social group, for all to learn from.

In conclusion, ( more apt this time)..
I think monogamy is a hard road sometimes and at other times not.
To keep it running well and oiled,
takes some of our private truths to be shared, if we have them. With care, also with courage.

Philo: I tried to interpret what you and seandr meant by 'linking emotional intimacy and sex'

For me it just means that good sex generates a mutual sense of connection/closeness, and vice versa. If I'm with a partner and that's not happening, our days together are numbered.

It doesn't mean I have to know someone well or even at all for the sex to be hot. But, I do have to be fully attracted to her, and I have to like whatever I've seen of her personality, and she needs to be an active participant, and at least pretend she's fully engaged in the proceedings. Otherwise, I've found it's better to just not have sex. To all the judgy humorless pillow princesses out there, sorry, no cock for you.

It also means that I find makeup sex, and its associated rapid transition from disconnection to profound connection, to be totally fucking hot.

Lava @ 272
My closing line @ 268, "I still got in some mild trouble for different reasons, but that doesn’t change the fact that I also like our friend across the pacific" was a reference to... you.

Thanks CMD.. I did think that, when I remembered the oceans bit.
Not long now, I'll be jumping into that Pacific.

End Of Day exclusive- Dr. Aisabu’s Response

Despite our Australian correspondent calling him “CMD's Magic man” in her #240 post it should be noted that the doctor was quick to response, corteous, and informative.
The last line is my favorite.

MY CHILD :

AISABU LOVE SPELL is a great temple which has been in
existence for the past 67 years and it has been past from generation to
generations. What I do here is 100% guaranteed and no matter what the
problem is, my spell must work for the power behind it is very powerful and
secured, no harm and very easy, And this temple is a place of seriousness
what I want here is real people who really want their problems to be solve
and not a playing ground. And in this temple there are rule that can never
be violated:

{1} Do not tell anybody about the spell until you have seen result
{2} Do not work with me and the same time work with another spell caster it
is either you make a choice
{3} Do not come here for jokes or take spell casting for granted

These are the rules and regulations you must follow in other for a good
spell casting and to get good result of 100% guaranteed. But before i start
with the casting of the spell your info and that of your lover will be
needed.

YOUR NAME:
YOUR LOVER NAME:
YOUR COUNTRY:
YOUR LOVER COUNTRY:
YOUR MOBILE NUMBER:
SEX:
AGE:
YOUR LOVER AGE:
YOUR PICTURE:
YOUR LOVER PICTURE:
YOUR OCCUPATION:

If I get the detail I will proceed with the casting of the spell, for you
have make the right choice for contacting.

Hope to hear from you.

Best of luck

Lava @ 265
Missed it for some reason. Any details re the specific desires, what makes them gappy, and how widening is being measured?

Wow, a compliment…no, it’s not the rouge, I’m really blushing…But… I assume you know I’m not only brain. I also have very nice breasts!

Chairman @201: "is it safe to call it bi-curiosity instead if it has never been explored irl?"

If you are a virgin who only fancies the opposite sex, are you straight-curious? I believe it is definitely possible to know for sure without having had the experience. (Wish I'd known that when I was younger.)

JibeHo @219: "I hope I don't offend anyone reading when I say (as I have in a previous thread) that I don't date bisexual women for this very reason. The insecurity would be too stressful for me. I came by that rule the hard way - by having my heart crushed."

And I hope you're equally unoffended by the fact that I avoid lesbians because I know how prevalent this attitude is, and I don't want an entire relationship to be an uphill fight to convince someone I won't leave them for a man. (Like I had to convince my ex-husband I wouldn't leave him for a woman. What a fucking drag.)

This brings me to the point that unlike Mrs JOE, I was up front with my future spouse about my same-sex desires. But like Chairman alludes, I was unsure of whether I was "curious" or it was a "phase," and at any rate, my success rate with women was nil so it didn't seem that important at the time.

Philophile @246: "It's unclear who wanted to make this fantasy into a triad or threesome reality (bringing another woman into their relationship)". If JOE states, "I cannot see myself being with anyone else," I doubt it was him.
Though I suppose the conversation could have been:
She: "I'm bisexual, I want to experience sex with another woman."
He: "How about a threesome then?"
She: "No, I want the experience to be one-on-one."
I think the odds this scenario are much lower, though.

Philo @250: I would not label anything-curious as a point on the sexual orientation spectrum. Curious is just that, unsure. If you are unsure of anything, you cannot categorise it. Perhaps a word for people who have same-sex fantasies but no desire for real same-sex sex could be "bipothetical"? :)

Chairman @254: Thanks for sharing your story. Weird that we have both sides of the JOE dilemma here amongst the commenters. For the record, I'm sure in both of our cases it was never a case of not caring about our partner's feelings and desires or vice versa. In fact, that was what made both of our situations so difficult. When your needs hurt the person you love. Compromise becomes impossible.

CMD, it was just a newspaper article. I'm guessing he did interviews. And findings cited in article from other countries backed him up. I've got it on my list to google him.
Reasons cited; work load for women. Porn teaching men to not take it easy with women. That the internal wires in a woman, need a sensitive touch. Not the visuals promoted on porn.
I'd add medications to that list.
We're buddies, right. So I can tell you straight. Your breasts just wouldn't do it for me.
The spell master sounded interesting. No lines for your credit card details? Pictures as well. Impressive.
I'm keen to cast a few spells.

Have you had your breasts done CMD and you haven't told us?

CMD has lovely breasts. He just doesn't wear them all the time :)

I mean taking hormones.
You asked me ages ago what My favourite colour was. Been giving it thought, and I have so many favourite colours.
Purple/ pink/ brown/ lime green.
That's just the top line.

Those pillow princesses are just crying into their glass slippers, Sean.

Sorry, 'twas a joke! Perhaps I need more coffee :)

Ms Fan/Ms Phile - Where would either of you put "-functional" in the spectrum (which accounts for people like Mr Savage Himself)?

*****

Ms Fan - Can we attempt to refine the point about people not mixing? I could respond (and yes, I acknowledge your point was a response to Ms Jibe and you might not frame it that way either) by saying that it's equally prevalent among bi people to treat gay people as if we're exactly like straight people except for whom we boink, but I'd phrase it differently.

I'm never offended in the slightest by anyone bisexual's taking the line that it's just so much easier dating other bi people, who tend to get things instinctively. My framing would be out of respect for the huge differences between orientations (unfortunately paved over rather shoddily by the overassimilationists in their rush to marriage equality - wait for the potholes), which for some people are a mark on the credit side when considering forming a relationship and for others are a mark on the debit side. (We're backing into one of the reasons why I think B-S is an easier fit than B-L or B-G, but that's a side point.) We are not all Linnet Ridgeway; some of us can deliberately decide not to take a particular next step because the fit is insufficiently good. I know it's more complicated than saying that this applies to both sides.

In my prime, it was not uncommon to see bi men particularly decide to devote their twenties to SS social lives and then go OS when they were ready to mature. Some left early and some decided to stay, but the OSR/SSR differences were much more stark. It's interesting watching the gap narrowing as the artificial differences are remove by change generally for the better.

Lava @ 285, 287
BiDan @ 286, 289

Yes, I was asking you about the color (or “colour” for you two) a while ago, since I liked your response to someone and wanted to offer to dress up in your honor.
For some reason you didn’t take it well back then so I let it go. But now that I know your color preferences…
Lots of pink stuff- lots!, stunning purple sequin bustier with a matching thong, brown and lighter brown hues make some great outer wear choices: silk pants, shirt, silk camisole, sweaters, skirt, matching high heels, different light brown nail polish colors.

So what’s your choice? Others can chime in as well.

As for my breasts- forms, no hormones nor implants. I love them. Sleep with them every night, even wear them some times under my men’s clothes without people noticing…
Yes, nothing like the real things, but I also figured out ways to make them move as if they are real, nipples and all.

They also feel pretty close to the original, but I‘m aware they don’t work for all. Bare in mind that they are here first and foremost for myself. Yes, it’s great if others like them, but this is way secondary. And it’s ok if you don’t, so nothing to feel bad about.

So in conclusion BiDan was right, as always. No need to apologize nor additional coffee.
Everything is discussable and jokable. Sex, identity, and body parts- real or otherwise- are no exception.

BDF 282 and 283 - bisexuality is just too general of a label in my eyes

a woman who dates men and occasionally sleeps with women
a woman who dates women and occasionally sleeps with me
a woman who dates men AND dates women
a man who dates women and occasionally sleeps with men
a man who dates men and occasionally sleeps with women
a man who dates men AND dates women

right now... they are all lumped together. So i see bi-curiosity as an actual thing.... because in my own head... i simplify bisexuality to that small group that DATES both sexes (i.e. relationships)

by the way... i love bipothetical. That's awesome

funny typo... oops. that second one clearly was meant to say MEN....not me.

Suggestion for LR#1 that wasn't brought up. Drink less. Sounds like a lot of this clueless fuckery is done while drunk. Maybe that should be your first tip that something needs to change. I was about that age too when I realized I can't keep boozing it this way and expect nothing bad to happen or at minimum no drama. So dry it out a little.

Loving this thread. Have so much to say, I can hardly organize my thoughts.

@250 Philo - But I don't understand why people identify as straight instead of at least bicurious, if they are sexually excited by thoughts of both genders. It seems like the same sort of inaccurate self description as men who have had years of sex with women, coming out as gay instead of bi. It seems biphobic.

Why is a different set of rules applied to same sex fantasies if they are kept in the realm of fantasy? I'm not someone who has a hard time coming but I fantasize about a very wide variety of people and things when getting off because I enjoying getting lost in my mind that way when aroused. Just yesterday, I suddenly felt the urge to masturbate upon seeing a photo of a fully clothed woman in a street fashion blog, and this woman was one of a few images I cycled through while coming a few times. Yet I have no desire to have actual sex with another woman. When I'm with a sex partner, sometimes my mind is focused on them in the moment, sometimes I fantasize about past iterations of them/us or sort of role playing fantasies specific to them, sometimes I fantasies about other men or women from my past or in my daily life or sometimes a hot celebrity or athlete, sometimes things totally unrelated to human sex, imagining I'm food or an animal, literally hundreds of fantasies go through my head. But I have no desire to actually have sex with women, food, animals, etc.

@Chairman - It's so interesting hearing your perspective. Until fairly recently, I assumed everyone fantasized at least sometimes during sex. Occasionally I made a point of positioning my body in such a way that my long-term partner could more easily fantasize I was someone else if he so desired. I never asked if he wanted this, I just assumed, and he seemed to enjoy it as much as any other position, though I later discovered he was less into fantasizing during sex than I had assumed. I guess we sort of took a DADT approach to fantasies and tended to only reveal fantasies when prompted by each other.

In general, I think there's just not enough information in JOE's letter to assess what is going on. But I will say that in my own (former) marriage, fantasy orientation did not reflect risk of real life cheating. I was the higher fantasy partner and never cheated, he was less fantasy oriented during sex but cheated IRL. And that kind of reminds me of something a therapist once told me. Before I married my ex, I asked my therapist if she thought our age difference would become an issue someday. I was several years older and I wondered if my partner would eventually want to be with someone younger. She advised that regardless of our age spread, even if he was 10 years older, it was likely he would eventually be more attracted to younger women, that's human nature. I appreciated that perspective. It's not possible to eliminate all risk.

@250 Philo - One more thing, Philo. Among my many, many fantasies during sex is that my clit is actually a penis that my male partner is sucking. But that doesn't make me trans curious, right? Now, if that was coupled with me feeling like a man trapped inside a woman's body, that would be a different story, but I don't feel that way, I just like to imagine what it would be like to be a dude having his cock sucked. I bet it feels pretty great!

CMD, I'll need to read thru your wardrobe to create the look. Silk though.
Best against skin. I'll only go for natural fibres.. So if anything is other, don't tell me.
Future, The word bi curious is just too funny a word for me to take seriously. For some reason it reminds me of a carton character my granddaughter watches, I just can't remember what it it.
In myself I am bi. Men and
women( no animals or food yet), occupy my sexual world. In the outside world I'm straight.

Cartoon not carton you knob phone.

Venn @290: Hello! What do you mean by "-functional"?

"it's equally prevalent among bi people to treat gay people as if we're exactly like straight people except for whom we boink..."

Instead of acknowledging what differences? I have my theories, but I'd rather you gave the gay perspective instead of my assuming it. Straight privilege in dating, dynamics of jealousy when all parties involved are the same gender, that sort of thing?

"In my prime, it was not uncommon to see bi men particularly decide to devote their twenties to SS social lives and then go OS when they were ready to mature." Yes -- getting married and having kids was only possible with an OS partner, and remains far far easier. I can see that this would be a painful pattern to observe in one's exes.

CMD @291: My cross-dressing lover has some breast forms which he wears in a bra. (These days only for me.) It's very hot. They're squeezable too! As I am a goth, you can guess what colours I'd vote for. :)

Chairman @292: This is true, there is much variation. There are already soooo many labels out there though! Even my head is spinning :)

Hello FutureCatLady! Good to see you :)
"I guess we sort of took a DADT approach to fantasies and tended to only reveal fantasies when prompted by each other." I think this is an excellent policy.

@296: Right on, that is a very hot fantasy :)

@297 Lava - It sounds like we feel similarly about this.

It's funny, I am 1000% turned OFF by the idea of any type of actual furry role playing, yet I can enjoy fantasizing about being an animal. Thank goodness fantasies live inside our heads. Too much room for misinterpretation, I think.

@299 Hi, BiDanFan! Glad you approve. xox

LZito@294. See Venn, a Z
Dan does seem to like getting pissed with that cute boy of his, so you know. I haven't bothered addressing these wastrels yet, cause Dur.
Maybe if they tried dope instead, the whole story would go much smoother.

Venn @ 290
Thanks for your insight. I think what you describe goes beyond gay/bi/straight and could also apply to some nonbinary super ordinary folks: Is he actually gay, will she eventually want to change all the way, top operation is only the beginning, hormones, knives, you get the idea.

Which leads us to…..

chairman @ 292
Some more definitions to confuse us all:
- so if I’m in my female persona having sex with a woman am I a “lesbian?” Is she?
- And what if I’m with a trans man? or a cis dude? Or a gay dude?

I just follow the nike slogan.

futurecatlady @ 295
Your honorary mentioning in a near-future edition of End Of Day- EOD from now on, ordinary folks- is pretty much guaranteed.
That said, couple questions if I may:
What’s DADT?
and IRL?

futurecatlady @ 296
yes it is.

@303 CMD - DADT = don't ask, don't tell and IRL= in real life. Please go easy on me in the EOD. I'm new here. :)