Columns Dec 2, 2015 at 4:00 am

The Sister Act

Comments

225
Phew. I am xx, so I won't lie and say I don't see the world in a gendered way. I try and double check my self not to walk that way, and certainly I've really... not been a Euda fan, which Euda certainly knows.

So, all of these letters are open to interpretation. I could easily draft a scenario where LW is an utter [ ]wad. However, I try to give a fair reading and take the LWs at their word, unless there is a contextual reason not to do so (the douche who cheated on his wife and tried to explain it away in the comments come to mind). Therefore, I take him at his word when he said she made a fuss.

I was this guy (although xx). Deeply insecure about my weight, even though I was never really that fat. Struggled with men. And I married a man with a definite kink, far more experience, who pressed and pushed me into swinging even though I wasn't ready for it and wasn't frankly GGG. I also know this guy... or guys like him. I married someone similar. He adores me. He will walk through hellfire for me. I could crush his ego with a word. Why? Limited success with the ladies. Made to feel less than. One very hurtful run in. In certain ways, I could be considered the more experienced GGG girlfriend (now wife). Should he have been more robust? Maybe. But then again, I know what its like to have scars, that you hide behind this and that and the other façade. Should he let me go sleep with other men. I don't know. Should he? Are we all required to be perfectly GGG? Because that is where this road seems to always end with Dan.

So taking LW at face value, it does not stretch my credulity at all. I don't take her as put upon or manipulated, where she is the more experienced lady pushing him to stretch his comfort levels, and he feels "nerdy" and screams poor self esteem. There is a power imbalance in this situation, and the power grid points in her direction. And in such a situation, where you (the girlfriend in this case) are nudging someone along the path you want to go, into an area of massive insecurity, you need to be kind, you need to step carefully, you need to watch out for the landmines, because of the exact reason of the contents of this letter. You certainly don't raise a fuss if the first adventure doesn't go exactly the way you want it too. That's violating the campfire rule. That's being an ass.

My ex? Oh hoisted on his own petard because I learned what I would bet LW's girlfriend knows. If you are girl who likes to play you have the power.

Philo: I know you were in a nasty feud with Euda and I get it, there's history, but I am really glad you weren't my friend as I struggled through feeling manipulated by my ex, told I was fat, sitting by why he had his little flirts with women in front of me. Yes, poor me, my feelings got hurt. Just one more man, starting with my father, in a long line telling me I wasn't worth a sh*t because I don't meet western society's definition of beauty. Men are told over and over again that their d*cks are the measure of their manhood. It isn't. But LW has my compassion. He deserves someone who gives enough of a sh*t about him to be kind. That's where I started, and that is where I end on Angst.
226
DarkHorseRising @225 "Are we all required to be perfectly GGG?"

No, and GGG doesn't mean we have to do things that make us very uncomfortable.

But if the sex in one's relationship has been great, in part because one's partner has been GGG for one's own particular cravings, then it's worth considering whether one can stretch enough to adjust to whatever it is one's partner is asking for.

If one appreciates GGG-ness in one's partner, one might see the advantage to stepping outside one's comfort zone, if only by little baby steps that may give hope to one's partner.
227
Stepping outside one's comfort zone Erica doesn't mean being made to feel inadequate. Where is the benefit to oneself in that?


228
Seandr [221] - Insecurity in healthy adults is almost always more a characteristic of the situation than the person.
This sounds similar to my "insecurity is a feeling with a purpose" spiel.

But as much as a few people are arguing that feelings are rational in healthy adults and if he feels something, that means that it had a reasonable cause, feelings AREN'T always rational. Which y'all remember when it's convenient:
Valuing someone is not proof they're treating you well. It would be, but only if people were perfectly rational.

If ANGST's insecurity is rational, because he has good reason to believe that his girlfriend may leave if she fucks a larger dick, then he may choose to stay and defensively deny her desires. I think that if his goal is staying together, it would be better served by helping her fulfill her desires, because a good partner is much harder to find than a big dick. She'd have little reason to leave if she can stay and get big cock too. And extra reason to stay if she could have threesomes. Also he can't twat block 24/7. So I wouldn't call his insecurity rational here, I'd call it self defeating.

DHR [225] - Yeah, you probably wouldn't have liked me as a friend if you were choosing to stay in a relationship that you described as making you miserable. I think people who stay in miserable relationships are a little insane. If you are so unhappy or dependent that being single is inconceivable, that sounds like a major problem to work on with yourself, not with the partner you're unhappy with. You can only change yourself. I don't like to support miserable relationships by sympathizing with those who choose to be in them. At least, I won't discuss that "my partner is so awful woe is me" crap til they want to work on a plan to leave. Or at least plan to change something. Moaning about what you continue to do with no plan to change, really pisses me off, it's so unrealistic and irresponsible. I like the definition of insanity- continuing to do the same thing and expecting different results. My personal judgement of insanity is when self descriptions don't match up with the actions. So everyone's a little insane, but some people are really insane.

Should I start only posting while sober again?
229
GGG is about considering if the large upside for your partner makes up for a small downside for yourself. If being GGG meant just doing what you prefer, everyone would be GGG.

When a middle-aged woman gets insecure because her husband looks at pictures of buxom twenty year olds, do we validate her feeling that he should just stop? Or do we say they should try to work something out so he can keep masturbating to pictures he enjoys, though he should try to be more discreet about it?
230
@229 is to LG @227.
231
@228.

Yup. You're right. Because I just needed one more person to tell me I was weak and worthless. It helped so well. Let me tell you what helped. Someone telling me I was beautiful and sexy. A counselor telling me I was a good person, that I deserved more. But what ever. Different strokes for different folks.

@229. You made my point. DISCRETE. my husband has a penchant for red heads. I have a thing for rape fantasies. He goes and looks on the web. I go and look at the web. I don't "fuss" in my boyfriend's first attempt to move into a more sexual extended area that I didn't get a big enough dick. Again, taking him at his word.
232
@226. EricaP, you put your finger on why I am very much bothered by dan's advice.

1. First, so what is the girlfriend is more GGG. We don't know if LW ever asked her to do something as deeply uncomfortable as what she asked him to do. Besides, is GGG a gift you give or is GGG a sword to force another person to accede to your wishes? I've been kicking around arranging a three some for my husband, but I won't ask him to do the same. For me, its not a big ask. I trust him explicitly in that regard. For him, holy cow, that would be nearly impossible. No tit for tat, unless specifically spelled out ahead of time. I dislike it anyway. I want someone to spank me with a crop because they want to, not because I've promised them some future perk. Then again, I am a romantic like that.

2. Baby steps you say, stretch yourself for someone who has indulged you. He DID take the baby steps and she 'fussed" about not getting the cock she wanted and it wasn't worth it to her. YOW. She just got him to come out of his shell and indulge her, but ah, it wasn't enough because of his damn hang-up. Well, she picked him. I think she ought to dance in the street that he moved this baby step, not indulged in fusses, and pushed it further forward so she can get what she ultimately wants.

3. Eh, the part I really jibe at is Dan's advice of you better give her the big dick if you don't want her to leave. That makes me weep. No doubt I will earn Philo's disdain for weakness (snort), but I know what its Ike to be told "you have to do this thing or I'm going to leave you." I know the LW's gf didn't say that, but Dan walked right to that line. Excuse me, but (Philo, look, what I learned in counseling :) (just giving your drunk @ss sh!t)) to blazes with that. In my case, it was anal sex. First time. No lube. No condom (oh, that's Santorum). Will you be shocked to know that I have never ever ever let anyone near my ass again? Worse again, I hadn't wanted to do it. Oh god, its been over twenty years, and I remember it to this day.

I don't care if LW's feelings about his penis are due to raging insecurity or if someone else doesn't have the same hang-up. It was bad enough that his Dick has frozen up. Perhaps he shouldn't be so hung up, but he is. If she gives a heck about him, she should have worked with him, not made him feel bad.
233
"I think she ought to dance in the street that he moved this baby step"

You're right, that's good advice and they would both be better off if she had chosen that path instead of letting him know she wasn't happy.
234
We often consider the campfire rule with May-December relationships, but I think it really applies to experience. The more experienced partner leads the less experienced. Maybe I am wrong in thinking the LW's girlfriend is the more experienced.

Water over the bridge now, though. :/ Goodnight
235
DRH [231] - Because I just needed one more person to tell me I was weak and worthless
That's not what I said. Insane is not worthless. If you are not perfect, if you have problems with physical or mental health, it doesn't make you worth less. It makes you human. We may think too differently to communicate well. I'd agree it is a weakness to be unable to recognize bad behavior, and I hope your counselor helped, that you strengthened your weaknesses, and that you won't settle for an unhappy relationship again.

EricaP [233] - they would both be better off if she had chosen that path instead of letting him know she wasn't happy
You are saying she should have hid her unhappiness? Why stop there, why not advise ANGST to hide his unhappiness too? I liked your tact theory better.
236
EricaP@222: "another choice ANGST has is to ask for more reassurance than he has gotten so far. Asking for what you want is often worth trying. Maybe she will provide it."

Oh boy that's hilarious. Have you ever met a straight woman? Asking her to be less cruel and maybe show the tiniest concern for your feelings--as if you were a human being--is a display of weakness, and pretty much every straight woman can be counted on to take that as a signal to turn the brutality up to eleven. Like, look at Philo for half a second.

That's like counseling a battered wife to lock herself in with her husband, disable her phone, and tell her abuser that he hits like a girl.

LG@213: "Whenever Mr E returns for a while, I start to feel like I'm back in the school yard. He's that lonely little boy the girls really aren't into, so all he's got left is to tease, taut and say nasty things to them."

This is about as intelligent as Limbaugh's claim that feminists only become feminists because they're ugly. After all, pretty people never believe that everyone deserves to be treated like a human being, I guess?

"You’re ignoring the facts. In the other thread you refer to, while people aren’t hypothesizing that the LW is cheating, I and several other people have called her a liar."

Yes. The brother's wife is the wronged party here. Try to count the number of people claiming that she isn't really the wronged party, or that she consented to this when she didn't. And notice how EricaP isn't pushing a narrative where the wife is horrible and forces her husband to cheat? Huh.
That's what it looks like when the genders flip--suddenly, this desperate urge to create a narrative where the victim is the one really at fault mysteriously disappears.

Alison 204: You're right that I missed some of the unstated subtleties here, because I mostly started skimming after this part: "I am certain you will have an interesting complementary perspective to share, but when women read “she made such a fuss” from a man, we sigh and think of all the times we couldn’t make ourselves heard by men without making a fuss."

Responding to accusations of preemptively dismissing complaints because they come from a man by protesting that hey, you're all in the habit of dismissing men's complaints and that you all really do believe that men's complaints never mean anything other than signaling contemptible weakness... has the opposite of the persuasive value you seemed to be hoping for.

It's like if someone accused you of saying something a bit racist, and you responded by saying "You're completely wrong, because we all know black people are vermin! Nothing they say can be trusted, because black black blackity black! And they're always accusing me of being racist, but they're black so it doesn't matter. Now, listen as I explain my alternate version of the story in which I'm not a racist but black people are always terrible."

...well, as claims of non-racism go, that one leaves a lot to be desired.

The darkly hilarious part here is that you think you have a hard time being heard by the opposite sex without making a fuss, when you're literally describing the mechanism by which you make it impossible for the opposite sex to be heard.
237
@225: "Philo: ...I am really glad you weren't my friend as I struggled through feeling manipulated by my ex, told I was fat, sitting by why he had his little flirts with women in front of me. "

Nah, you'd have been fine, because the double standard would've worked for you. Philo would've had your back, even--especially!--if you'd been abusing your ex rather than the other way around. I'm pretty sure Philo only sides with the abusers when they're women.
238
@232 DarkHorse - Yes. I find that sometimes what is missing for me in the advice is that one can't necessarily have everything they want without losing something they already value, and sometimes that "something" is preserving the partner's feelings which extends to the dynamic between the two partners. In this case, we don't know how much LW's girlfriend values him as a boyfriend, so hard to advise whether it's worthwhile for her to take the "everything I want" approach without looking at cost vs. benefit. Regardless, I agree with you that it sounds she handled this poorly.

Also, I'm so sorry to hear what happened with your ex. FWIW, I was once violated in a way similar to what you described and I found it healing to do something similar with a different partner who was more caring and gentle to sort of "tape over" that violent recording in my mind.
239
1. My experience is that women are cultured to protect men's feelings. Of course no gender is a monolith, so it's entirely possible that some might be cruel. I'd point out that nocute and I are both women and have exhibited compassion, so I think i'd knock off the sweeping statements of being women being cruel.

2. I refuse to get sucked into any stupid war with philo. I didn't react well to her comment about lw's feelings, but I do not subscribe general cruelty, malice or manhating to her and have no problems with her. Don't use me in your proxy war.

3. Philo, I think I understand you better now. You are simply very plain spoken amd consider yourself highly rational. We may or may not do well in person. I know people who areplain talkers and i know people who use "truth telling" as an excuse for meanness . Look, the question for lw's girlfriend is what her investment is in lw. If she loves this guy and wants to explore with him then she needs to work with his hang ups. But if she isn't invested in him that far yet, then find a more compatible person.

Negotiating feelings is important. I find it a bit hard to believe that stifling her disappointment that she didn't get the ginormous penis damaged her as making a fuss damaged him. If she'd held her peace she might have gotten another shot. No chance of that now.

Again, if some man had made a fuss that a girl wasn't skinny after i'd made the effort to indulge his kink. Yah. Good bye.
240
Philophile @235, "You are saying she should have hid her unhappiness?"

Part of "tact" can be moving slowly and trying to build mutual happiness as you go. As DHR points out, she could have encouraged his baby steps in support of her fetish better by explicitly appreciating everything they do as part of their shared adventures; rather than by acting disappointed after their first encounter with a stunt cock.
241
DHR [239] - consider yourself highly rational
Correction: I consider myself to have a decent awareness of my irrational tendencies. I value rationality highly. Yeah we seem to have some communication difficulties. Not sure what the basic difference is. Maybe different personalities. I hope we can agree that people are responsible for their own choices and the effects. That people should attempt to stop making choices that hurt themselves or others. That's why I think ANGST should leave if this is a fetish too far, instead of complain about what she needs; he's choosing to be with a person who really wants an MFM, even though her needs make him uncomfortable. Why would he do that if it's a fetish to far for him, even to outsource? If he wants to be completely GGG, if he appreciates it from his girlfriend and wants his girlfriend to appreciate it from him, start working on the big dicked MFM or getting comfortable outsourcing. If not, if she's not that great, or he wants a vanilla lifestyle more, leave. Don't sit around and whine about how her needs are too much for him but it's too scary to be single? If she did something specific that he finds "wrong", describe it specifically, and what behavior he needs to see instead. Also think of what she might do to heal his feelings as much as whatever she did hurt his feelings, and ask for it. If she doesn't care to take reasonable steps to comfort him, get away from someone who's hurting you. Complaining that there is a problem and THAT'S NOT FAIR is very different from working on a problem. I think this "not fair!" stuck thing only happens when your expectations are unrealistic.

EricaP [240] - So you are saying that if ANGST had been under the impression that she had been satisfied with their foursome, he would be more likely to try an MFM? I disagree. He has no motivation to initiate it himself, so without motivation from her, I don't think it would happen. She won't get what she needs from this relationship unless she states what she needs, and makes it clear that she hasn't yet gotten what she needs. I am under the impression that ANGST is not telling her "it's not going to happen", expecting her to figure it out over time, hoping she will not leave when she does. If she knows he's not going to do it, she should drop it and leave, or live with it.

I think the moral of so much of this comment thread is
Women's insecurity about porn is incorrect and changeable.
Men's insecurity about dick size is correct and unchangeable.

Even the kid who came out as a sadist last year was treated better than the woman who needs a big dicked threesome. But it might be a language barrier. I've only heard phrases like "made a fuss about the holidays" or "made a fuss about nothing" when people didn't understand or agree with another's priorities. It seems like many people think it describes bad behavior, like "pitching a fit" does to me. If she behaved badly, why didn't he describe the problematic behavior, more than "she is unsatisfied when the guest dick is average".
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@239: "My experience is that women are cultured to protect men's feelings."

What experience is this? Just to be clear, are you claiming that Philo's "has a sadz" post never happened, or that this kind of shit is at all uncommon? Neither is true, but it would help to know whether you're merely ignorant or actively participating in gaslighting.

How many straight women have you dated? If the answer is zero, why not admit that you have no idea how any straight woman besides yourself acts in a relationship?

My experience is that shit like Philo's "has a sadz" comment really happened, and that pretty much nobody else took issue with it, and that shitstains like Philo are fairly representative of straight women. Given that my experience matches reality and yours demonstrably does not, I'm sorry, but I'm going to privilege real-life experience over the self-flattering rationalizations that people make up in order to declare themselves incapable of wrongdoing.

..."but I do not subscribe general cruelty, malice or manhating to her and have no problems with her."

Given that she's demonstrated all of these qualities right in front of your eyes, you are very much part of the problem. What would it really cost you to acknowledge that post #193 actually exists? And that the kind of person who would write that actually exists, and that Philo is such a person?
243
You are well aware I made none of those statements. I took issue with philo's statement and pointed that flat out several times. I also flat out said women can be cruel being, you know, humans.

You will just have to understand that the fact I have a different view of general socialization of women. A view of a certain trend is entirely different than a view on what one particular woman, philo, may or may not do.

My statement is not revolutionary. In fact, Dan Savage has often remarked on it in his podcasts. He advises women often the be less deferential toward a man's feelings, especially when sending them the message to bug off.

You will have to accept that your personal anecdotal experience is not more or less valid than my antecdotal experience. You do not have the personal claim of "truth of how things are." If you were even close to as rational as you posture, you would recognize that human behavior traits exist along a spectrum and is highly variant based on family and social structure as well as individual nature. For a man who engaged in analysis of in/out group dynamics, you should understand that the behavior of one particular woman does not indicate the behavior of an entire gender.

Acknowledging bad behavior in an individual (lw's gf) does not invalidate my view of the general socialization of women.

You are off the rails again. Go talk to a therapist. It does a body good. I am a million times happier.
244
And clarification...that philo made one comment I found offensive does not make me discount her. People say mean things all the time. She at least engaged me without viciousness and acknowledged my view. You have been far more vicious to me than anyone else here.
245
Oh and i'm bi. I have dated women. Oops. I also dated crappy men. I don't subscribe their failures to all of men. That whole in group out group analysis you engaged in. Maybe you need some counseling to see why you keep picking losers. In my case I had to develop some self respect and drop the massive chip on my shoulder. Much better men after that. That chip you carry must be killing your back.
246
"I also flat out said women can be cruel being, you know, humans. "

I understand that you said that. If you actually believed it, and acted accordingly, then this conversation would look very different. For one thing, if you actually believed it, you would not be trying to convince me that post 193 either doesn't exist or isn't significant, because it wouldn't conflict with your worldview.

"You do not have the personal claim of "truth of how things are."

This is an absurd thing to say while claiming either that post 193 doesn't exist, or that Philo isn't the kind of person who'd say shit like that, or that Philo is in some way unusual. Or that it's not acceptable to judge someone according to their actions, when that someone is a woman?

I don't understand which of these you're claiming, but they're all very obviously false. What benefit do you think comes from claiming any of this? Gaslighting does not work when your target doesn't trust you or can scroll up and see that their perceptions are correct and your statements are not. Right now, both are the case, so I don't understand why you're still trying.

Again, how many straight women have you dated? It sounds like the answer is zero. If you're going to claim that dating a woman while female is the same experience as dating a straight woman while male, that's an extraordinary claim and I'm going to need to see some extraordinary proof--proof which is not based on the claim that #193 doesn't exist or is insignificant.
You said your experience is that women are cultured to protect men's feelings. My experience is that women, particularly straight ones, are cultured to seek out any hint of feelings in men, and to punish them as brutally as possible. My experience has extensive proof, which you have looked at. Yours seems to have no proof at all.

Look at 193. Look at your own reactions. Stop saying I'm insane for knowing it exists, or for knowing what it means. I get that you want to pretend it didn't happen, but my refusal to help you pretend that is not irrational. When I pointed out that 193 existed, despite your claims to the contrary, you suggested I was insane. Is that how someone cultured to give a shit about men's feelings acts? Or is that how someone cultured to punish weakness acts?

This thread is full of proof that your experience is imaginary, and full of proof that mine is the truth of how things are. When there are two competing theories, and there is abundant proof that one is true and the other is false, what should a rational person conclude?
247
Eudaemonic - I suppose your passionate use of my handle has moved me. I will give you what you want if you apologize to DHR for announcing that she is an accessory to "general cruelty, malice and manhating", and for asking about her lovers.
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Philo, you have nothing I want. And I have trouble imagining a view so warped that you think I owe DHR an apology for pointing out that she was being your accessory, or for pointing out that she has no experience with the situation about which she's attempting to make declarations of fact.

I try to treat people better than they treat me, without exception, and while I've perhaps treated DHR more harshly than she strictly deserves, looking back I don't think I've failed to do it.
249
Eudaemonic - I'm not debating your logic. I'm debating your etiquette. Not what you think, but what you say to others.

If I cared to debate logic with you, I could ask how many cocks you've loved up, why do you claim expertise in the behavioral differences between female and male lovers? But I don't think that you would defer to my experience with male lovers, and if you've had male lovers, I wouldn't want to draw attention to your minority in an attempt to claim more expertise with men. Similarly, I could link an authoritative page that says acc…. That won't convince, you have your reasons for believing that abusing others is necessary sometimes. No, I see no point to a logical debate with you, that was not the deal I offered.

My offer was made to ascertain whether your primary goal here was to reach understanding with others, or to dole out punishment and reward to the "deserving" in an attempt to influence others. If you don't want to reach understanding with me enough to try the deal, I assume you're repeating my name so much because you'd like to influence and persuade. I can recommend "How to win friends and influence people" to learn both ethical and effective ways to persuade others. You remind me of Ben Franklin, this excerpt is from the recommended book:

One day, when Ben Franklin was a blundering youth, an old Quaker
friend took him aside and lashed him with a few stinging truths,
something like this:
Ben, you are impossible. Your opinions have a slap in them for
everyone who differs with you. They have become so offensive that
nobody cares for them. Your friends find they enjoy themselves
better when you are not around. You
know so much that no man can
tell you anything. Indeed, no man is
going to try, for the effort would
lead only to discomfort and hard work. So you are not likely ever to
know any more than you do now, which is very little.

"I made it a rule," said Franklin, "to forbear all direct contradiction to
the sentiment of others, and all positive assertion of my own, I even
forbade myself the use of every word
or expression in the language
that imported a fix'd opinion, such
as 'certainly,' 'undoubtedly,' etc.,
and I adopted, instead of them, 'I conceive,' 'I apprehend, ' or 'I
imagine' a thing to be so or so, or 'it so appears to me at present.'
When another asserted something that I thought an error, I deny'd
myself the pleasure of contradicting him abruptly, and of showing
immediately some absurdity in his proposition: and in answering I
began by observing that in certain cases or circumstances his opinion
would be right, but in the present case there appear'd or seem'd to
me some difference, etc. I soon found the advantage of this change
in my manner; the conversations I engag'd in went on more
pleasantly. The modest way in which
I propos'd my opinions procur'd
them a readier reception and less contradiction; I had less
mortification when I was found to be in the wrong, and I more easily
prevaile'd with others to give up their mistakes and join with me
when I happened to be in the right.
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Thanks for making it more explicit that you couldn't debate logic even if you wanted to, and that you don't want to. The rest of your post seems pointless; obviously, you're one of the very last people on Earth who I'd listen to about ethics or etiquette.

You are correct, though, in accidentally guessing why I don't lie to people who date men about what it's like to date men. If the people who don't date straight women would show the same minimal courtesy (or even a tiny degree of honesty), even for a moment, this would have been a very different conversation.

Don't mistake using you as a salient example for being interested in persuading you of anything; I obviously don't care about changing your "beliefs," because we both know you don't have any. My goal is both more modest and more meaningful.
251
It's surprising how painful biting one's tongue can be.

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