Venn, it is not legal. First step, give sex work it's legitimacy and take all the bullshit moral judgement away.
If men didn't need to fuck like dogs, there would be no need.
Didn't really have to throw that line in. Sometimes the devil in me wins.

@BDF 104 I doubt it. I don't think there is much overlap between Tinder users and clients of prostitutes. Clients being mostly "undesirables" whose only option for getting sex is paying for it (I should know - I am one of them. Lol.).

@106. Some men.
Yeah it's xmas, goodwill to all Men. And the hope that one day they will stop killing and raping and talking shit thru their mouths and delude themselves they could lead the free world.
We could be all having such a good time on earth. Looking after each other, tending the kids together. Men have their secret business, women have theirs.
All this crap we surround ourselves with, and here we go buying more of it. Thinking a gift, an object, makes up for a yrs worth of sometimes shitty behaviour.
Well it won't wash for me. Xmas at my house is food, food and food. Champagne as well.

@106 LavaGirl: On the contrary I think you summed it up beautifully, whether or not the devil in you won this time. You GO, girl!
Here's Griz's devil's worth: Notice how all the ugly, corrupt, gun-totin' and bible quotin' hypocritical corporate pigs in expensive men's clothing are mad as hell because they usually CAN'T fuck like dogs. Reeeeeoooow!

Lava---I hope the heat wave in Queensland is starting to ease up so you and your family can enjoy the beaches again. It's wet and windy here--my beloved VW and I have had to batten down the hatches, literally.

@108 LavaGirl: Now THAT'S living! Cheers!

Just waiting for a bus to go to Noosa, G.
You got snow? Keep rugged up and cosy by the fire.

Venn @ 103
Some people may have an easier time detaching their emotions from some sex acts.
Also, no one is plotting to turn “sex work into dating with a celebrated pay scale” anymore.” That is so escort…

BDF @ 104
Prostitution, just like all surviving businesses, had to adapt to the internet and all that it entails. Providers may have an easier time advertising their services, though competition may be tougher.
And despite all those dating sites many users often encounter a huge pile of cow’s manure on their way to actually meet a compatible person.
There are still plenty cases in which sex workers help clients figure out things like orientation, exploring a kink without freaking out the “real” partner, and so much more.

I’d argue that prostitution is here to stay no matter what. Implementing legalization is likely to take plenty tweaking and may always be a controversial issue to some.

Lava @ 108
aunt Zelda @ 109
The YGG crowd, yet another fine Venn-coined acronym, is highly encouraged to tone down its rhetoric.
Some men indeed fuck like dogs, some women fuck like female dogs which is a politically incorrect word so I'll avoid it, and women who are in power don't seem to be any less shrewd or committed to nothing but themselves than their male counterparts.

LavaGirl, you don't seriously believe women would have a better time on earth without men, do you? Count me out!
My husband tends my children with me and then we fuck each other like dogs once they're asleep (which can take a while sometimes unfortunately...).
I'm not sure what womens' secret business is. Actually, my best guess is removing hair from my upper lip. Now that's something he doesn't need to know about.

No quilting. Though it is a thought, we could just hang onto a small %, for lust, building and procreative purposes. The healthy young virile attractive ones.
No. I meant we could have (all as in sexes,all genders) had such a good time together. In another galaxy far far away.
Heading to see the new star wars with three of my boys. Better not be a dud like the last lot.

YGG crowd CMD? No, don't know them.
My statement, though crass, was spoken in relation to the existence of sex workers.
I could have said rabbits, but they are such cute little animals. I did amend my statement, further down,
to some men.
Interesting that women are called bitches. So too are female dogs. One wonders who first thought to label his woman a female dog.
Sex workers would not be necessary, except for men and their sexual desires/ needs. Women wouldn't keep an industry going here, I don't think.
And what is the prevailing attitude to sex workers, by men? It's like the workers are punished for the men's own desires.
Why isn't it legal? Men are so ashamed of their own impulses they can't even openly say, yes, I want sex so much, with a stranger, no complications etc, that I'm ready to pay for it.

I hope a lot of men who transact with sex workers, treat them with respect and thankfulness.
Not all men do.

Lava @116: Yes, a good point. It's men who make the laws criminalising the selling of sex, by the people that men themselves are buying sex from. Such a double standard!

And indeed, I was thinking of the Vanity Fair article about Tinder that I posted a while back as evidence of the free love that is happening thanks to the Internet. Of course it is the same guys doing well on Tinder who would have done well at frat parties and campus bars in the pre-Internet days. They don't need to pay for girls to have sex or to go away afterwards. Sex workers can be a godsend for un-confident guys.

@118, not sure we can pin all those laws on men, as women also have the vote. Much like the often cited 'Man who fucks a lot = stud, woman who fucks a lot = slut/whore' trope, women are at least as culpable in carrying on that regressive mindset. More men in government passing laws, yes, but what a politician most wants to do is stay in office, they're pretty slutty when it comes to following the whims of their voters.
Lava, you should be feeding both your cat and son MSM, great for joint strengthening. Electro-acupuncture also does great things with healing bone breaks, though not sure you can get a cat to sit still for it.
@113, yeah, my absolute best and worst bosses, and clients, have been women. I submit you can't go into a job where a woman's at the top, thinking, oh thank god, a woman in charge, she'll be a caring empath/conniving bitch/any pre-set idea.

@EricaP: Indecent proposal

Lol. These are two randoms on Grindr, and the LW is selling dick, which is a bargain bin commodity.

I think it's more likely the offeror is targeting newbies (intentional use of the plural) because they are more easily manipulated with promises he doesn't intend to keep.

Get the money upfront!

@BiDanFan: It's men who make the laws criminalising the selling of sex

Bullshit.

@Cat Brother: Man who fucks a lot = stud, woman who fucks a lot = slut/whore' trope, women are at least as culpable in carrying on that regressive mindset

In my progressive little bubble of a world, the standard bearers for this regressive mindset are middle school girls, and the punishment for those who don't conform is swift and harsh.

I submit the following just in case anyone finds it of interest:

Over the weekend, I was giving someone an account of that dreadful advertising slogan, "Every kiss begins with Kay," used by Kay Jewelers, which I was distressed to read is the leading specialty jeweler in the US. Then it occurred to me that this might achieve the Equilateral Triangle of Offence - giving equal grounds for complaint to OSW/OSM/SS. I suspect I could argue any of the three sides (or perhaps even construct more). Does anyone want to make a case for one side being longer or shorter than the others?

@122 - Mm-hmm, and those same girls are the ones who hold the pussy/power, and could dictate those boys' sex lives as they'd like.

@122: In middle school, simply having developed breasts early or having larger breasts than her peers can get a girl called a slut.

@124: Those middle school girls getting labeled "sluts" because they dress in a way that people feel compelled to criticize, or who wear a larger bra size than most other girls, or who made out with one boy one week and another boy a different week, or who in any other way attract the attention of middle school or high school boys or college guys or middle aged men or old men--on the street, while walking, or taking the bus, or riding their bikes--those girls who are labeled "sluts" and judged and excluded from social events by the girls who act like middle-or high school society's gatekeepers: yeah, tell them they're in control, that they have power.

The laws change because enough people call it. If those who transact with sex workers ( men mainly), started the ball rolling.. Right. They want it hidden.
And here's where the women come in. If their men frequent sex workers, then it's not the same is it, to them having affairs.
Those whores better know their place, as long as they do, us wives won't kick up such a fuss when our men transact with them.
If sex work was fully legal, upfront, protected and looked after as an important profession, the women, the wives of the men who are clients, well, the dynamic would change. Money would still be exchanged, the difference is, the sex workers would be treated culturally with respect.
The status quo is served by downgrading and degrading this work.
As well, if sex work for women was legal, so too would sex work for men. Then the wives might start to think, getting with a young man and paying him for it, might be ok. It is legal.

@122 seandr: What is your definition of nonconformity among middle school aged girls?
@125 nocutename: Ouch. Thanks to a cruel trick by Mother Nature, I was among the very first of the girls in my sixth grade class to develop noticable breasts. However awkward, I don't believe this classified me by my middle school peers as a slut because I wore glasses (for correcting nearsightedness, and still do) and my being overweight way back then. The ostricization and bullying were just terrible, all the same.

@111 LavaGirl: No snow----yet. My beloved beetle and I hope that any snowfall stays in the mountains for the skiers and snowboarders to enjoy. Our reservoirs need the precipitation badly.
You're right, though---the holidays are indeed great for cuddling, feasting, toasting, and further revelry.

@126 - I should clarify, what I meant was, 'they are the arbiter of whether boys get sex.'

No, they don't have The Power like Neo. Women of any age get catcalled, and of course this is out of their control.
The other examples you brought up are (for the most part) the work of other women. I've dated busty women who were very clear that most of their schoolyard harassment was from other women. This is different than what I was addressing.
The 'slut/stud' trope is often brought up as an example of men keeping women down, in a similar fashion to how an earlier poster said that men were the driving force behind keeping prostitution illegal. My point was, it doesn't matter so much what guys think, it's whether women consider a guy a 'stud'/desireable that will get him sex, or not.

I remember the gossiping in fifth grade when someone thought they saw visible belt lines on a classmate's pants indicating that she was wearing a menstrual pad. She was asked about it, denied it, and then the gossip was that she secretly had her period and was pretending she didn't. Extra proof of her scandalousness.

Really crappy.

I'm on grandmother duty several days a week till xmas. I'm opening one of my Barbie collection dolls. I know. It's hard.
Must check the date of purchase, as this doll has Afrrican American blood in her. Mattel does occassionally get with the programme.
And I've held onto lots of my daughters Barbie stuff.
The art stuff of course. That is ready.
Child looking after, back in the saddle.

@122: Seriously, Sean. Not to nitpick and I'm not out for anyone's blood here, but middle school boys can be just as shamefully cruel in their vindictive singling out rituals as middle school girls can be. I was constantly bullied during my adolescent years--all because I was overweight, wore glasses, loved music, cats, and Volkswagens--and still very much do--daring to be different when so many around me were afraid to be. Were you?

School. An all girls school took some skill to navigate. I didn't go thru the games that go down when boys there too.
G, it's help make you the creative strong woman you are.

@130. CatB. Yes, it does matter what a guy thinks of himself. Long as he's not deluded about his talents and skills, a sexually confident man is attractive.

All men are not sexually attractive to all women. And vice versa. So these stereotypes we all panic over for nothing.
Stud, what the hell is that? A man's sexual attractiveness can be in his hands, I often look at mens' hands.

@Cat Bro: Thanks for the clarification regarding the power of middle-school girls @130.
Yes, I'm well aware that the bulk of slut-calling based on things like breast development comes from other girls. Essentially, it's girls and women who make the word "slut" such an insult.
See this article.

@133: Not to say I didn't (and don't) have any flaws of my own (I certainly do), or didn't want to be able to feel socially welcome. it's just that middle school really sucked turds for me, and I'm so thankful for not having children of my own who would have also had to endure such uncomfortably awkward growing years.

I meant women are all not attracted to the same sort of man. I've never met a stud let alone fucked him.
It's a shame when we are young and beautiful, our social skills are up to shit.

Auntie Griz: I was not one of those early developers; on the contrary, I didn't need to wear a bra at all until I was 16. Different set of psychological reactions.
And then when I was in my late 20s, I suddenly became boobalicious. Go figure.

G; all that stuff you went thru, nasty mean shit, I'm sorry.
I'd have thumped those bullies, given them what for.
I just learnt to avoid those rich, self important girls who I schooled with. They didn't even bother to slam me, them totally ignoring me was far more effective.

@134 LavaGirl: Thank you, Lava. Incidentally, two of the creepiest guys from my junior high school years Facebook Friend requested me last year, as did my ex (remarried twice, and possibly now with children since our divorce). Thank heavens for the delete option.
Life goes on.

One of my best friends when I was young developed very large breasts very early, and was followed and cat-called by teenage boys and men and hit on with alarming frequency from 13 years old. Boys used to talk at school about the size of her breasts to other girls, I believe with the intention of making them envious and jealous and she subsequently became the subject of their envy and jealousy!
I don't think this was entirely the boys' doing by any means, but they were definitely not innocent witnesses to mean girls' games. They knew what they were doing and enjoyed the games.

@140 nocutename: You're lucky to have gotten boobalicious in your late 20s instead of at age 12.
Adolescence, no matter what the circumstances is so awkward, isn't it?

@141 LavaGirl: Boobs at age 12, about 40 lbs overweight, tall and broad shouldered (not the desired small-nosed, little and cute), and with two bossy older sisters as "know-it-all" dental hygienists, further threatened into facing unwanted braces AND headgear by my mother who bought their every word, ignoring my tearful protests.
Luckily, the sole orthodontist we had available back then spared me from further cruel abuse in school by refusing to put braces on my teeth, informing my shocked mother that a) as close together as my teeth were, they didn't warrant braces in his professional opinion, and b) upon examining my teeth and talking to me it was obvious I was completely uncomfortable with wearing braces---and he wasn't about to proceed further with any patient that wasn't going to take proper dental care (wires, retainer care, using a Water-Pic, etc.). That's among many reasons why I'm still not close to either of my sisters to this day---their level of immaturity continues to astound me.

@144, Part II: Additionally, all that plus starting what became increasingly heavy and painful menstrual periods by age 12 1/2 in a 'get over it, you big crybaby' home and school environment, of which my mother was also a school employee. Some fun times, huh?
I wonder if it's possible that after I'm dead and gone (when that day comes), all the spirits of those unused Griz eggs that could have become sons or daughters would go back into the Earth to become something much more productively beneficial than if I had ever had kids.
At least they were spared public school bullying.

@141 LavaGirl: By the way, I would have gladly thumped a bunch of bullies at my school, but to have done so would only have made things worse for me. To add to the awkwardness, my mother was also an employee there, and seemed far more concerned about protecting her job status than speaking out in her daughter's behalf. My mom's unsympathetic attitude then wasn't entirely her fault, though---we lived in a rural community with a long-adopted 'kids will be kids--what are you gonna do?' mindset, and the bigger schools kept dumping their problem children on our small district to deal with.

@48 (someone has to treat borderline personality disorder or do couples therapy)

Interestingly enough, the gay 24-year-old sounded like a BPD poster child to me.

Forgive me for ranting on, folks. I'm still upset about the senseless Sandy Hook Elementary shootings among other unresolved craziness--three years later.

@137 - Thanks for that link, that’s an article I referred to in an earlier thread, but couldn’t point to.
Anyone saying, children thru grade school and college are (frequently) vicious herd-acting swine, will get no argument from me, I certainly caught my share.

@griz: I was constantly bullied during my adolescent years...were you?"

No.

I was the token middle class kid at a fancy, progressive midwestern private school. There was a group of girls who made fun of my cheap clothes in 8th grade. I remember wearing a new shirt that I was keen on. One of them asked "Where'd you get that shirt, Sears?" and I replied "No" when in fact the shirt had come from Sears. I yelled at my mom that night and never wore the shirt again.

That was the worst of it. In 10th grade, I started flouting the dress code and adopted more of a hoodlum look, and they all became my friends. The same girl who called out my Sears shirt lovingly wrote "Thug, beware!" under my yearbook photo that year.

Bullying wasn't a thing among the boys at my school. It just wasn't part of the culture there, which was like Lake Wobegon with yachts. Picking on people certainly wouldn't have won you any friends.

Sounds like you went to school with a bunch of apes. Sorry to hear about your experiences.

P.S. Just to clarify, I haven't accused any middle school girls of "bullying". Rather, social standards are enforced by talking behind peoples backs, giving someone a "look", making indirect comments, excluding, and subtle yet potent social media maneuvers that have been explained to me but I still don't understand.

@151: Right, seandr. "bullying" is too crude a word for the pressures that middle (and high school) girls often employ to maintain social standards, which standards rest on complicated ranks and hierarchies wherein the exclusion from one and the inclusion in another are not always acknowledged Big Deals or create hugely public scenes. A girl is never (or extremely rarely) called a slut to her face. Instead, she's excluded from friendships or activities involving the more popular girls and thus not available to socialize publicly and approvedly with the popular boys, made a social pariah who can only socialize with the kids already on the fringes--those whispered to be a bit dangerous--kids who might be having trouble with authorities, school or otherwise. kids who may use drugs just a bit more frequently than the more popular kids do, kids who may not be quite as academically driven. It's all very subtle. And she will simultaneously get more attention from boys, so she won't a total outcast. But often these boys will be the ones from the more established social order who can't pay attention to her in a more traditionally accepted and socially approved way, yet will eagerly want to see her on the downlow.

Indeed it is the girls who will use the word "slut" not to her face, but to describe her, and indeed that descriptor will act as a beacon for some boys, which will add to the cache of "slutty behavior" which will come to feel more and more justified and which will be used more and more freely. Since she'll be shunned by the "good girls," any female friendships she cultivates will come from other "sluts," and the distinction between social groups intensifies. To be sure, she may decide that if she's going to be tarred by that "slut" brush, she might as well be hung for a sheep as for a lamb. All of which contributes to a true shift in her social status and place in the hierarchy.

I think it's nice that your school didn't seem to include of to glamorize overt bullying, but I theorize that those "subtle yet potent social media maneuvers" you witnessed, but many not have really felt or understood were still doing their work--that of shaping peoples' self-esteem (Which naturally manifests in behavior that reinforces their social and self esteem and further appears to justify the need for the social strata in the first place.)

It's subtly vicious and very effective. And oftentimes neither the boys or the adults see it.

I was bullied by both boys and girls for my complete lack of a bosom, throughout middle school. I would have loved for someone, anyone, to think of me as a "slut" rather than as an untouchable, undateable pariah. Middle school. Who'd have it! It's a wonder any of us survived with our psyches intact.

Sean @121: Oh really. So you're going to show me evidence of laws against selling sex having been made by female presidents and lawmaking bodies where the majority of the elected representatives are female. I don't think so, because those don't exist.

Nocute @140: Sigh! I guess I shall have to be satisfied with having developed cheekbones in my late 20s. Still no sign of a bust. :)

@BiDanFan: Policy around prostitution is currently being driven by well organized, well funded women's activist groups who argue that sex for pay is inherently nonconsensual (no woman could possibly ever choose to be a prostitute), and who have successfully lumped prostitution under the nefarious "sex trafficking" label, nevermind if the traffickee and trafficker are one and the same person.

Like many lobbying groups, they are regularly given an audience in various legislative bodies ranging from the Seattle City Council to the British House of Commons. Prostitutes are never invited to offer a rebuttal, and sex worker activists in Seattle were explicitly excluded from the discussions because their views were considered to be those of a crackpot fringe - after all, what woman in her right mind would willingly sell her body for sex? Such groups have successfully set policy in Sweden, Norway, and Finland by criminalizing the men who pay for sex but not the women who sell it. In 2007, the Commons Leader (female) introduced legislation to move the UK to the Nordic model, which passed in 2014. Similar legislation has recently passed in Canada.

It would be really great to see more feminists speaking out against this hijacking of consent and the unfairness of jailing men simply for paying for sex (don't we have enough men in jail already?). Alas, too many seem to become bored with issues in which men aren't clearly to blame.

seandr @157,

Movements to legalize and decriminalize prostitution are also women's activist groups. The folks in power get to decide which groups they want to legitimize.

Yes, getting rid of Bill C-36 is a hope being pinned on our new don't-be-evil government.

My beloved is from the famously liberal Netherlands and there was much confusion when we discovered that here in Quebec, sex work is a choice while where he comes from it's oppression. He didn't know anyone who'd ever been to a strip club and couldn't enjoy it when I took him.

Turns out that the difference is that here, sex workers tend to be small-town girls making choices. In the Netherlands, they are trafficked from Eastern Europe, blackmailed by criminal gangs who know their families back home. The fact of legalized prostitution makes illegal trafficking harder to spot.

RE criminal gangs: I'm a teeny bit concerned that legalization of pot will have them focusing more on pimping/trafficking, but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

@Alison: The folks in power get to decide which groups they want to legitimize.

Those decisions are highly influenced by the power of the group. The anti-sex trafficking movement has opened a lot of pocket books, enlisted celebrity spokes people, generated heart-wrenching (and ultimately fraudulent) documentaries, funded fear-mongering pseudo-science (according to one study, 1 in 30 underage girls in Seattle are trafficked for sex), and garnered tons of media coverage. To refuse them is to support sex-trafficking, which isn't something any politician can afford to have associated with his/her name.

This may sound unfashionably American of me, but I see two inviolable liberties at stake: 1) the freedom of consenting adults to choose who they fuck and why, and 2) the freedom from being jailed for exercising one's freedoms. Policies for reducing harm should not, and need not, come at the expense of those freedoms.

There has got to be a way to discern who's doing sex work voluntarily from who's being coerced or trafficked. There have got to be ways to change the laws so that people doing sex work of their own volition are protected from abuse from the law as well as from those who would rob or assault them, and so that clients aren't persecuted when they made a legitimate business deal involving paying money for services rendered. There have got to be ways to protect people from being used or trafficked that don't involve punishing the people who are already being victimized or the people using their services if it can be reasonably deduced that the clients didn't know that the sex worker was being coerced.

But all those distinctions and different laws require a level of common sense and nuance and individualization that is at odds with the typical American habit of "make-some-poorly-thought-out-law-and-apply-it-uniformly-despite-any-context." I mean, that's just how we do things in these parts. Criminalizing sex-for-pay and punishing those who provide it voluntarily, those who are forced into it, and those who pay for it in good faith is far easier than taking the time to apply different rules in different circumstances, and it sure as hell is easier than having, in our puritanical, sex-negative culture, to confront the fact that sex is a basic human need, that some people will be forced to forgo that need if they can't pay for it, that some women enjoy sex, that some sex workers chose their line of work and that some people--read "women" mostly--simply don't feel bad and torn-up inside and guilty and sinful when they have sex outside the context of a loving, monogamous relationship.

There is a long tradition of "saving fallen women" that is being invoked, and who could possibly imagine that a sex worker isn't being forced to do said sex work when you believe that no woman could ever possibly want to have sex for any other reason than to
(A) express her love and share intimacy with her beloved partner.
or
(B) to try and "hook" a man.

There is something in the trend of "feminist" celebrities slut-shaming in the guise of empowerment or rescuing victims of trafficking that robs women of their agency, but if you try to point that out, you risk, as seandr points out, being identified as being "pro trafficking," and no politician can risk that--just as they can't support more lenient drug sentencing laws, or any other mandatory sentencing rules, lest they be seen as "soft on crime."
By the way, more victims of human trafficking are working as non-sexual slaves; it's just that our prurience is aroused by the thought of all those young girls--echoes of "white slavery"--being forced to have sex. Being anti-human-trafficking and focusing only on the sex work often can be a perfect way to feed your righteousness and cover your titillation at the same time

@143 busy_quilting: I'm sorry to hear about your friend. Mean people really do suck.

@150 & @151 seandr: It sounds like you were very fortunate to have enrolled in a progressive school where at the worst, there was some ribbing about what clothes you wore (i.e. the Sears shirt), but no outright bullying or cruel exclusions. Author Stephen King would have described me during my adolescent years as a tomboyish female "Arnold Cunningham". Like Arnie, I had plenty of pimples, too, and my blessed car was indeed--and still is, an effective sources of welcome escape.
If those creeps back at my K-12 school could see me now.....

@153 BiDanFan: I'm sorry to hear about your awkward adolescent experiences, too. If only middle school didn't exist! I'll drink to that. I was a pariah, too, and certainly left to feel undatable.

nocute @ 140
BDF @ 155
Never give up. I know someone who became boobilicious in their 40’s…

seandr @ 159
Fake documentaries aside, unfortunately trafficking is indeed real. I’ve seen it happening in other parts of the world.

BiDanFan @153, 155: I don't know anyone, seandr excluded, who wasn't pretty miserable during the middle school years. It's a rough time.
I know what you mean about being an undatable pariah and wishing you had enough obvious sexual appeal to warrant being labeled a "slut," but I have to think that if you had, that would have left its own kind of scars on you. I too was "undatable," and didn't think I registered as a girl in the sense of being sexually desirable: I was skinny, completely flat-chested, had a most unfortunate perm, some acne (not terrible acne, but a far cry from the peaches-and-cream complexion many of my peers had), wore braces all through high school (yes, all four years, until the summer after graduation), and when I bothered to apply makeup, I applied it very poorly. seandr, I smiled at the mention of your Sears' outfit: my mother bought most of my clothes at KMart, Zody's (a really low-rent KMarkesque store I doubt still exists) and Sears; an outfit from J.C. Penney made me feel like I belonged--of course, if I got something that was "in," it turned out to be well on the way "out" which was why it was (a) affordable and (b) for sale in any of the above-mentioned stores in the first place.

I think a big reason for my rampant promiscuity when I was 18-22 was that I finally registered as a girl to straight guys and I needed to prove to myself that I was worthy of sexual attention.

Adolescence shapes us all and many of us have residual scars. I'm sorry you had the time you had, and I'm sorry that auntie grizelda had the time she had.

But the thing is, we don't need to carry those issues around forever and we can let those scars fade to barely-visible marks as we get older and (hopefully) wiser. I understand you rock the waif look--a look I could never achieve and that I envy. I hope you have found and will continue to find many friends, lovers, acquaintances, and strangers who admire and desire you not in spite of, but because of the body you have.

And for the irony files, when I was young, I was too skinny to be sexually attractive to more than a tiny handful of people, and now I'm too fat to be sexually attractive to more than a tiny handful--and yet not fat enough to appeal to a different group.
It seems that the state of "happy (literally) medium" has been a sadly temporary one for me. Oh well.

I remember things got so bad for me by the seventh grade that I had stayed home from school one day. My outraged father actually drove into town, storming the principal's office on my behalf to protest the harassment and try to stop the bullying. I can't imagine what my mother was thinking then; I don't remember her saying or doing anything. Maybe she just didn't want to believe what was going on. Shortly afterward, one slimy little male instigator moved away with his equally messed up parents. Things finally got somewhat better later, after all the jeering about 'Daddy coming to the rescue' died down.
I remember my father asking me, too, by my high school years, "Are any of these guys worth writing home about?"
You're right, Sean. The majority of them really were Neanderthal apes.

@165 nocutename: Can I buy you a drink some time? I can certainly relate. Boomers unite!

My irony is that the guys and girls (in my high school senior class, anyway) haven't seen me in
3 1/2 years since our last class reunion---and since I've lost weight, and lightened my hair color (a little help from Miss Clairol). I can't see myself ever dating, and a heterosexual male willing to just remain friends really does seem a rarity.

Why G, can't you see yourself ever dating. Or stepping out with a gentleman. He knocks on your door with a nice bottle of red to take to dinner.
imagining is the first step girl.
They say this is xmas.. And where is Ricardo.

nocutename @160
>> There has got to be a way to discern who's doing sex work voluntarily from who's being coerced or trafficked>>

Legalizing sex work would make that a lot easier. If sex workers could complain about being assaulted or robbed without jeopardizing their own freedom and livelihood, then presumably the cops would start hearing more such complaints.

Legalization of sex work still wouldn't protect people who entered the country illegally -- but that part is true for illegal farmworkers and sweatshop workers just as it is for illegal sex workers.

nocute @ 164
“we don't need to carry those issues around forever and we can let those scars fade to barely-visible marks as we get older”
Maybe a bit more often than barely, yet enough to look back and appreciate the long- and often rocky- road one had to take in order to be where they are now.

EricaP @169: I agree. My point was lost, I suppose.
I think so much of the problems in our society stem from people's desire to see the world in absolute terms. A browse around one of these comment threads is an example.
We should absolutely make sex work in itself legal, while making all human trafficking for any kind of slavery--not merely sexual slavery--illegal. We should likewise continue to prosecute those who prey on citizens or legal resident aliens who are performing sex work against their will. First, though, we have to allow for the idea that some sex workers, male and female, are sex workers by choice. We owe it to those who are being coerced into sex work to do some kind of checking/questioning to make sure that people are making that choice freely, and legalizing sex work would help make that easier.

@168 LavaGirl: Thank you for your sweet, encouraging comment. I really honestly haven't considered dating though since my divorce. I know it has been a long time (enough time since for my ex to get over #2, move to another state with #3, and possibly have kids with either or both), but I like my freedom even more.
Married women and "seriously taken" girlfriends in my community have outwardly expressed their contempt towards women like me when I'm publicly dining & drinking alone (i.e.: the recent totally disastrous VFW outing on an alleged karaoke night). And I am NOT getting shitfaced and throwing myself on any man, either---just minding my own business. Just wanna have fun. People tell me I "don't look 51". Okay, but I'm neither a cougar nor a slut. Believe me, Lava, the "Dating Game" here where I live really sucks and just isn't worth the hassle.

Hunter, Sean @156/157: Fair points. And back in the days before women had any political power, they were probably privately trying to influence their husbands in power to ban sex work. They didn't want the competition!

Nocute @164: Thanks for sharing. Yup, your adolescence sounds a lot like mine -- perm, skinny, flat chest, acne that really WAS pizza-face bad, and big glasses -- fortunately my mother let me get contacts when I had braces on, and those came off at 16. By that age I actually wasn't bad looking, but when the whole school labels you undateable you are kind of stuck. I spent ages 17 onwards attempting to prove my sexual desirability in a similar way to you. (And I discovered in the process that I really like sex, so win.)

I know now that if I was one of the big-busted girls I envied so much back then, I'd have hated my body too.

Agree that those scars should fade the further away one gets from high school, and believe it or not I'm a pretty confident person. Funny how the teenage years kick your butt, and by the time you get over those issues, you have a whole new set of insecurities to tackle (hello wrinkles and the "cougar" stereotypes we hashed out a few months back!). As for you, I think "neither skinny nor fat" is most people's preference, so all you need is confidence and I'm sure you'll have no trouble pulling anyone you want either :)

@164 nocute - I can totally relate to your experience. I was fairly late in developing. Through most of middle school I was tall and flat-chested with super skinny legs and braces and acted as a matchmaker between my friends and the hot guys because I was boy crazy but not the object of my peers' desire. When that changed, essentially overnight, I went through the stage you described, validating my own attractiveness. My promiscuity never resulted in loss of girlfriends, maybe just some lectures from them. I was eventually (in high school) slut shamed in a public and humiliating way by two boys who acted anonymously. This included an awful private talk with the dean of the school who wanted to investigate the matter. My girlfriends at school were incredibly supportive. OTOH, a male friend at school said I may as well get paid for sex if I like it so much. So I object to the idea that it is always the girls who are shitty about these things, as some posters have suggested. That was not my experience at all.

176 Future - I would never propose that in general women do most of the abusing/are worse people in peer groups. I think you can only generalize along gender lines via the type of the abuse, e.g. male-on-male abuse is much more likely to involve physical violence.
In middle school, as in most other places, one dedicatedly assholish person, male or female, can make your life really bad. Like 'which gender makes a better boss?,' I think it's useless to generalize which sex is worse, as whichever one(s) it was for you tends to loom largest in your mind.
I raised the idea of women enforcing the 'stud/slut' trope at least as much as men, because it's often raised as an example of men oppressing women. You say you didn't have any problems with the women in your life from being promiscuous, others on this thread apparently had other experiences. Doesn't mean 'girls are the bad ones,' mostly means 'you can never tell which gender will push you down or prop you up.'

I swear, the above was in three paragraphs when I hit 'submit.'

@89 @90 No engagement from the enlightened, uh? Not too surprising, unfortunately.