Control Tower

"Real" vs. "Fake" Rape Fantasies

Comments

1
It must be very embarassing to admit that you have a fantasy about being raped, but it is even more difficult to admit that what gets you going is being the rapist. It isn't going to get you many second dates if you bring it up on the first one. Not only that, such a man or woman that holds the same attitude as this woman has - it can't be "real" unless she/he doesn't want it - goes beyond being bothersome and becomes truly dangerous. I think that this, too, is what is really bothering MM about this coversation.
2
I don't understand Mistress Matisse's response here. The woman knew what her fantasy was ... she knew how she wanted it executed ... and I assume she had a partner whom she trusted enough to carry it out.

It isn't the way MM would do it ... it might not be the way that I would do it ... but it's the way the woman wanted it.

For someone who is open to so many variations sexually, I find it interesting that she believes that "your active participation" is a must-have.

Now it might happen that she wouldn't enjoy the event if it goes down as planned. But it's also possible she might not enjoy the event if she had "active participation" in the planning.

MM seems to have a one-size-fits-all idea on this particular dimension, and her explanation didn't persuade me.
3
I found this story to be shocking and comforting at the same time. I have profound respect for the top who was able to deliver the emotion within the negotiated boundaries and limits.
http://shelovessex.com/2010/09/consensua…
4
If I were to play psychologist and analyze that fantasy, I would say that it represents something lacking in their marriage. It sounds like the husband doesn't initiate sex often enough or that she has the higher sex drive. She feels like she has to take the male role in the relationship sometimes and wants for him to take more initiative. His lack of masculinity forces her to give up some part of her feminity. He's the male equivalent of a ball buster who emasculates her husband by being overbearing. He's probably so passive that she wants for him to take initiative just for once. He's diminished her feminity and goddess power, so she wants to take it back agressively in order to balance the sexual dynamics of the relationship. She's projecting this desire onto him in her fantasy where she is so feminine and beautiful that he must have her. The only part she wants to be real is the part where she feels feminine again. Maybe between paying the bills, getting groceries, taking care of kids or the house, etc- she no longer feels desirable. Our fantasies, no matter how they're voiced or expressed, represent some real life dynamic in our relationships or selves. I think her fantasy means that she desperately wants to feel feminine again, not that she can't tell the difference between real and fake rape. Something is really missing in her real life and it's showing up in her fantasies.
5
As a male with several female friends who share a fondness for rape fantasies; several lovers and former lovers who actually HAVE been raped; and an enjoyable - but deeply careful and conscious - taste for rough sex and BDSM, I can tell you what squicks ME about this scenario:

The assumption that a man would naturally WANT to "really" rape his lover.

That it's okay to make HIM the very-possibly unwilling instrument of an unconsensual sex act.

That he might even be considered "less than a man" if he can't or won't fulfill that urge for her.

And that if she later decides that the "fantasy" wasn't what she wanted (or turned out worse than she expected) that, legally and morally, HE HAS BECOME a rapist.

There are two sexist cultural assumptions at work here, both deeply damaging:

The first is the one Mistress Matisse discussed.

The second is that all (or at least most) men are primed, ready, willing, and emotionally and physically able to rape women... and SHOULD BE WILLING TO DO SO on demand if their lovers request it.

No one mentions here the potential emotional trauma that the MAN might experience trying to live out her fantasy for her - the emotional and even physical pain that he might experience forcing a woman he loves (or at least likes) to have sex while she fights and struggles and screams for help.

Sure, that sort of thing can be hot IN A MUTUALLY CONSENSUAL SITUATION, wherein both parties have agreed to boundaries, safe words, and possibly even an explicit written agreement. But without them? No way in hell I would go there myself, and many men I know - kinky men, dominant, sadistic men - would agree with me about that.

Nor does anyone consider the aftercare involved in a physically and emotionally traumatic scene... aftercare for which he would be responsible, but probably would not receive himself.

"Live" rape fantasties are emotional and often physical nitroglycerine. One wrong move, and everything's destroyed... especially in a man-rapes-woman scenario. Why, then, would someone assume that the GUY should remain emotionally unscarred in such a situation? Leaving the potential legal ramifications on the sidelines, this woman's desire to be "really" raped by her lover displays a disturbing lack of empathy, wisdom, and respect for all parties involved.

Rape requires at least two parties: someone willing and someone not. Am I the only one who wonders, in a situation such as what this woman says she wants, who'd really be raping whom?
6
As a male with several female friends who share a fondness for rape fantasies; several lovers and former lovers who actually HAVE been raped; and an enjoyable - but deeply careful and conscious - taste for rough sex and BDSM, I can tell you what squicks me about this scenario:

The assumption that a man would naturally WANT to "really" rape his lover.

That it's okay to make him the very-possibly unwilling instrument of an unconsensual sex act.

That he might even be considered "less than a man" if he can't or won't fulfill that urge for her.

And that if she later decides that the "fantasy" wasn't what she wanted (or turned out worse than she expected) that, legally and morally, he has BECOME a rapist.

There are two sexist cultural assumptions at work here, both deeply damaging:

The first is the one Mistress Matisse discussed.

The second is that all (or at least most) men are primed, ready, willing, and emotionally and physically able to rape women... and should be willing to do so on demand if their lovers request it.

No one mentions here the potential trauma that a man might experience trying to live out her fantasy for her - the emotional and even physical pain he'd experience while (or after) he forces a woman to have sex as she fights and struggles and screams for help.

Sure, that sort of thing can be really hot IN A MUTUALLY CONSENSUAL SITUATION, wherein both parties have agreed to boundaries, safe words, and possibly even an explicit written agreement. But without them? No way in hell I would go there myself, and many men I know - kinky men, dominant, sadistic men - would agree with me about that.

Nor does anyone consider the aftercare involved in a physically and emotionally traumatic scene... aftercare for which he would be responsible, but probably would not receive himself.

"Live" rape fantasties are emotional and often physical nitroglycerine. One wrong move, and you've got ruins, especially in a man-rapes-woman scenario. Why, then, would someone assume that the guy should remain emotionally unscarred in such a situation? Leaving the potential legal ramifications on the sidelines, this woman's desire to be "really" raped by her lover displays a disturbing lack of empathy, wisdom, and respect for all parties involved.

Rape requires at least two parties: someone willing and someone not. Am I the only one who wonders, in a situation such as what this woman says she wants, who'd really be raping whom?
7
Thanks satyrblade. I agree with your comments about the impact on the raper in this scene. Consideration needs to be give to all involved. As a rape victim, who has enjoyed only consensual, mostly vanilla sex, I don't 'get it'. The loss of control that the rapee wishes. My sexuality is so important to me, and for me to be able to feel safe in a relationship is so important. We all have feelings, and responsibility to respect that the other person has them as well. Well said
8
I don't think that's it at all. What she doesn't like about the safe word is that she would know she has an out. She likes the idea that something is being done to her *and there's nothing she can do to stop it* so she can lay back and enjoy it. Having a safe word would mean she is in control at all times, and she wants to feel like she isn't in control.

Not that I think it's a good idea, but I think the reasoning behind it.
9
Louis CK has a great bit that deals with this exact situation. Sounds like this women is not alone in her fantasies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4hNaFkbZ…

10
I do understand the appeal of "no safe word" scenes, and I think they can be done with a partner who knows you really, really well (and whom the bottom feels really safe with). My boyfriend and I have been together for 4 years, and I'm not sure I've ever safeworded per se. I have definitely said, "Okay, I'm done" and he knew me well enough to be able to distinguish that from standard in-scene protestations. With other partners, I've definitely had the case of misinterpretation ending a scene---"I know you didn't safeword, but when you said 'No! That's too much!', you really sounded unhappy." Of course, I'd always rather fail in that direction--over-conscientiousness on the part of a top.

That said, I disagree w those above who feel like MM is going all One Twue Way in her response. While safewords can be flexible in long-time play partners who know each other well, I think prenegotiation and limit setting is essential--for the psychological health of both parties (as noted by other posters--being the "rapist" can be very hot but also very unnerving for a man, who has been raised his whole life to respect women, and he needs to feel like he's not suddenly a horrible sexist asshole.)

Maybe his idea of a hot rape fantasy involves a lot of face-slapping, choking, and verbal humiliation while hers doesn't. Or vice versa. Later, she might feel the "rape" was hot, but being called a filthy little whore made it icky. Or--she might feel that it wasn't a "proper" rape without that! And then there are mechanical issues--the first time my boyfriend and I did a heavy takedown scene, we discovered that, while he's really strong, I am strong enough that if I fight with all my will, it's difficult enough for him to penetrate me that he starts to lose his hard-on just due to getting distracted. So, we agreed that when it's close to the moment of penetration, perhaps I'll fight a bit less. Also, we learned that if he hits he really hard, I go tharn for a moment, and that gives him an "in" as it were.

But this is all stuff that you can only figure out if you're comfortable talking to your partner about what you want, and doing a post-scene, post-sub-space wrap-up where you talk about what went well, and what you could do better next time. My 8 or 9 cents. YMMV
11
The problem I see with the woman's fantasy is that the man playing the rapist has to read her mind. Without a safe word, or without discussing the fantasy first, how is he supposed to know what her boundaries are? I mean, to truly do what he wants without her consent is rape and that's illegal and can mess up your mind. I know from personal experience.

But the fantasy of having your lover take over and you get to be the total object of his/her *devious plans* is totally hot and I would love a man tough enough to take me on!
12
The problem I see with the woman's fantasy is that the man playing the rapist has to read her mind. Without a safe word, or without discussing the fantasy first, how is he supposed to know what her boundaries are? I mean, to truly do what he wants without her consent is rape and that's illegal and can mess up your mind. I know from personal experience.

But the fantasy of having your lover take over and you get to be the total object of his/her *devious plans* is totally hot and I would love a man tough enough to take me on!
13
Ooops. Sorry about the double post. New on here.
14
She says it wouldn't be fun if it wasn't "real", that he just needs to do it. But, when does it stop feeling good and begin to really hurt? For example, if he penetrates her anally (and forcefully) that could cause serious damage.

A long tome ago Savage Love dealt with a situation where the boyfriend tied up his partner and anally penetrated her...resulting in massive tearing and a trip to the hospital. The consensus was that the boyfriend raped the young woman because she had repeatedly refused to have anal sex with him (she had torn herself years before with a different guy). Now, the SL letter was not describing a consensual rape scene, but if it had been, how would the male partner know he is seriously damaging the woman? It would more likely be emotional tearing or scarring that would take place in this MM's friend's fantasy...but the damage would be done.

The woman MM spoke with probably just wants some spontaneity and some roughhousing. She wants to be thrilled and excited. She probably doesn't really want to be "raped".
15
This woman is fucked in the head. She wants a "real" rape? Somehow she fabricated some movie porn version of what rape is about. Guess what, the last thing rape is about is sex. Its about pain, hurt, suffering, dominance, injury, fear, lasting emotional and physical trauma, occasionally stds', unwanted pregnancies, and oh yeah, that pesky little think called DEATH. I'm all for having some fun with a rape fantasy, go for it. But thinking a "real" rape will fulfill her fantasy? She's obviously never been raped.

She's out of touch and I repeat, fucked in the head.
16
I have to agree with LZito.

There's nothing wrong with someone having fantasies about being "taken," even forcefully. However, as a survivor of sexual assault, I can guarantee that "real" rape is not the kind of thrill that this person seems to think it is. Being the victim of real rape is about pain, terror and degradation--NOT pleasure.

What if her partner decided to take her claim to want to be "real" raped at face value and hire someone to do it...some thug off the street, maybe a drug addict desperate for funds to support his habit, who might be willing to attack her, beat her, violate her, cut her, and leave her for dead? Would she get off on that? No??? Somehow, I don't think so, either. :(
17
This woman seems incredibly naive about the dynamics of this kind of scene. She really doesn't understand what "real" rape would feel like... Real rape which may include actions that she's not okay with. It would probably feel closer to cockroaches crawling all over her body than anything sexy.

I agree with BSweet69. She's expecting the man to read her mind. Or, more likely, she's assuming that the man will have the same idea as she does, of what a rape fantasy looks like. That's what makes her so naive.
18
She does seem rather confused about the fantasy v. reality of it all. But maybe there is something else she was trying to convey that she just didn't express well. Maybe she really meant that she wants some element of surprise and that if she plans it all out she won't get that. But that can be solved by creating maybe 6 different scenarios as to how it will all go down and then letting him choose from that menu of options.
19
I sort of agree with #4 -- a lot of rape fantasies seem to come from wanting to feel like "I am so desirable that he's driven to break boundaries just to have me." When she says she wants him to "really do it", what she means is that she wants him to actually feel that way. Asking him do it in a sane and consensual manner wouldn't work because she doesn't necessarily want the actions so much as she wants to feel like she drives him crazy.
20
Cognitive dissonance?? I don't think so.

For some women the ultimate sexual thrill is when her lover sets her limits. Having another pick the when, where and how of sex is one of most intense emotional experience some women can have. This specific lack of control is key to delivering an intense feeling of something "real" versus a "scene" to such women.

The woman you reference was trying to describe a scenario in which she wished only to determine the "with whom" of sex, but nothing else. This is not hard to grasp at all.

In "confessing" to you she needed for you to give her words and understanding about her desires , not for you to put her in a neat little politically correct box.

Epic fail on your part.
21
In "real" rape, who SHE is wouldn't matter: she is annihilating herself in her own fantasy, which is sad.
Perhaps she wants to lose control (fight for her life)- although she had better tell her partner it is about her desire to act like a wounded cat. I tend to agree with #4 and #19, though. If it's about her pleasure, she is suggesting she wants to feel so desirable she makes another lose control. It is logically impossible to consent to rape.
22
The woman has had a a LIFELONG FANTASY about being raped... so much for all the commenters bad theories her marriage is the source of this desire.
23
@Satyrblade. Word.

Dan Savage linked to an article a few days ago about how something about women's tears decreases sex drive in men. Not only is your average, decent guy not a rapist, even if he wants to fake it for the sake of his partner, biology is going against him.
24
"Not only is your average, decent guy not a rapist"

And no decent feminist has "rape fantasies"
/sarcasm.
25
I think what the women in the column might not get is that a key to most kink is a suspension of disbelief. In my experience you negotiate, discuss, set bounds and then in the moment you both sort of pretend you didn't do this. This isn't to say you later disregard the limits, exactly the opposite, you respect the limits negotiated and then run wild inside of those limits.

Having done lots of really intense power play I've never done so in a way that wasn't discussed and negotiated first. This was a little strange at first, but you get used to the process of discussing things and then doing them and having them still be hot. Even if you've discussed what will happen you can still do a scene that is strongly power based. BDSM includes a suspension of disbelief, it's fantasy operaitonalized.

I hope that the women in the column can recognize that rough sex and power play is something you work up to. You don't go from vanilla to rape play with generally good results. You don't even go from vanilla to basic kink without some real open communication.

That said, if you can put in the effort to communicate you can do awesome stuff you never thought was possible. Topping an anal rape scene with a bound, gagged, blindfolded bottom who didn't know she was going to be 'forced' anally? Totally awesome scene. She was good with all the things and good with them being put together however I wanted to do so. She didn't know it was going to happen and she was very surprised and delighted by the scene. It worked due to lots of prior experience and communication, and well developed trust.
26
Sorry, but negotiated scenes are exactly what this woman said she did not want. Funny that folks so committed to communication don't want to listen.

When a lover comes to you and confesses she has a rape fantasy about you that she doesn't want to preplan for please take her at word, but understand this.

Err on the side of caution. Don't participate with a fairly new partner. Always note her reactions to movies like Blue Valentine beforehand.
During sex restrain don't hit. No weapons! Avoid anal thrusting for anal virgins. Stop immediately if tears arrive.

27
@26, I think the point being made is that you have to accept that communication is the price you pay to pull this stuff off. Figure out the pieces in appropriate ways before moving into something like a non-negotiated scene. Just going for it while hoping for the best, without building background, is a poor idea for any number of reasons.

You can pretend you aren't communicating, but actually not communicating is a line I wouldn't want to cross. This doesn't mean you have to go though piece by piece, act by act beforehand though. You can have communication and surprise together.
28
@12 - She doesn't necessarily want her partner or "rapist" to read her mind. She just says she doesn't want to impose any rules on her partner or establish a safe word, she never said she wasn't willing to tell him about the rape fantasy. This would work with someone you trusted completely not to seriously hurt you. I would 100% trust my husband in this type of scenario.

Than again, I don't know if trusting the person 100% not to seriously hurt her would diminish her fantasy? Hard to say.
29
Amanda

You get it. Thank god!
It's like the common practice of getting married without a prenup. LOL. And that's a bigger deal. The woman simply selects a man that would never want to seriously hurt her.

BDSM has lost perspective on what trust is. Following someone else's orders is obedience... not trust.

PS: It is unlikely that this woman's fantasy would be ruined. She seems to have a partner in mind, not a stranger. I have been with several women with this desire, and they need acceptance and support, not someone telling them they are fantasizing in the wrong way!

30
I get it too, and I'm more than a bit shocked to read that the great Mistress Matisse does not.

The fantasizer in question wants a loss of control. Period. Why is not relevant --whether it is a failure to take feminist dogma adequately to heart or whether it's that old thrill of being pursued thing. It doesn't matter--she wants what she wants.

Now, as Mick and Keith know, you can't always get what you want. Maybe she can't do this safely. Maybe she can.

I think she can with someone she really knows and really trusts and believe me, there are plenty of people who do it the way she wants to do it. Sometimes it works out great, sometimes it is too scary, sometimes it's just not the thrill you expected.

But the point is, where do Mistress Matisse and everybody on this board--with a few exceptions like DirtyYoungExec and Amanda -- get off telling her she is wrong to even WANT it?

Mistress Matisse says this woman needs to "be in control" of this fantasy. But the essence of the fantasy is NOT to have control! What about that is so damn hard for people to understand?
31
And to all those worried about the impact on the play "rapist". . .that is easy. If you are not into this, you don't do it. Period. If you have any qualms that playing a game like this will mess with your head or your sense of ethics, you JUST DON'T DO IT.

And, where, Satyrblade, does it say that the subject of MM's column assumed that her partners would or should be willing to do this?

And if you are in the middle of it and you think you might be going too far, then you stop. Because you are the play rapist, you are IN CHARGE--again that is the whole point. If a man feels coerced into coercion it sort of defeats the whole purpose.

It is much more likely that the typical gentleman--particularly an experienced, responsible, ethical player--involved in this kind of scenario will retreat too early rather than go too far.

And our "real" rape fantasist shouldn't be playing with someone she doesn't know to be responsible, safe, and ethical. She's not saying she wants to recruit strangers off the street or from the state pen, she's only saying she doesn't want a safe word and she doesn't want to write the script. She wants to star in someone else's production, not her own, that doesn't mean she can't hire the director.

Oh, and one more thing, a poster earlier wondered about what happens if it "really starts to hurt." Hmmnnn. . .for some people that's when it gets fun. There's a reasonably good chance someone with this kind of fantasy may have a masochistic streak and some pain intensifies the sense of reality.

32
justchecking @30 wrote: "But the point is, where do Mistress Matisse and everybody on this board--with a few exceptions like DirtyYoungExec and Amanda -- get off telling her she is wrong to even WANT it?"

But she doesn't *just* want it, does she? I had the impression that she wants to act it out. You can fantasize about all sorts of things but that doesn't mean they will work in reality. Sometimes they do, and plenty of people act out successful "rape" scenes in which everybody has fun, but her version doesn't exactly sound like a formula for success. Some things are just better left as fantasies.
33
@31 Er... but how does that work in a relationship where one person wants to get seriously kinky and the other doesn't "want to be a rapist"?

I agree with the people who say that going straight from vanilla to rape scenes with no safeword is NOT a recipe for success. But my boyfriend's pretty vanilla, and I have rape fantasies (all mine involve it being play acting and consent being paramount though) and you know what? I just HAVEN'T TOLD HIM YET. I told him I liked light bondage, hair pulling and spanking, and that I was a bit more kinky than that but that stuff could wait. How would it be fair to expect him to go from vanilla to pretending to rape me?

There's nothing really wrong with what this woman wants... I just suspect she hasn't entirely thought it through. Or she wasn't aware of what a "real" rape would entail and had no idea about the buzzwords she was throwing up.
34
Umm. Do actual rapes involve props, spanking and latex?
This woman and her word choice is not the problem. The BSDM crowd is the problem.
This woman's concept of "rape" is normal while this audience's, whom she made the grave mistake of seeking advice from, is not.

Bottoms into scenes involving butt plugs, and st. Andrews Cross erroneously label them "rape" fantasies while their cohorts equate "rape" with being beaten till unconscious by a masked stranger with a knife.

The definition of "real" by a vanilla woman doesn't have the same odd connotations as it does when defined via alternative women.

35
Girls that resist sex piss me off more than anything. I instantly lose an erection if a woman shows the slightest hesitation. I want her licking her lips and spreading her labia as she eyes me hungrily.

Asking me to force-fuck you is a great way to make me lose a perfectly good erection. And that pisses me off so bad it makes me want to do something horrible to you, like rape you.

But I can't, because I no longer have an erection.

Bitch.