wow.

agreed.

"you uphold a system of inequality and allow for the minority with wealth and power to exploit the rest of us." + "the banker-looking asshat"

Guess what? It isn't in his interest to support you. He's on the winning team. You agreed to work for minimum wage. Don't like it? Tough shit, you shouldn't have taken the job then.

Don't you fucking dare to agree to work for a given wage and then whine about it like a bitch.

I was waiting for the fuck-you-I-got-mine contingent to represent. Took all of one post.

@3 - My banker-asshat partner wouldn't cross a picket line. He is disgusted by low wages and the way we make people live in this country. It is people like you who continue to parrot the party line of "isn't in my interest" who mess things up with your self involved narrow mindedness.

My banker ass-hat partner *does* see it in his/our interest to help make sure people are paid *living* wages. Because when the lowest (economic) levels of society are well off, it only means better circumstances for everyone.

"the way we make people live"

What a crock of shit. Don't like low wages? Don't work for them. Want a decent wage? Go learn a skill. Go become valuable to some business, or start your own.

Hey picketers - get off your useless asses and learn to do something worth a decent wage. Here's a shocker - "You want chips or a drink with that?" isn't worth more than a few bucks an hour. Absolutely SHOCKING!

Got no skills? All you can do is make 4 dollar footlongs for a living? Move somewhere with a lower cost of living.

@3 Ahh yes. "Don't agree to work minimum wage if you want to be treated as a person."

Go fuck yourself.

Wow, have the Seattle Times Forum Trolls ( TCLballardwallymont ) invaded The Stranger?

How's the tea, TCL, a little BITTER these days?

Listen, TCL, you dead-enders are on the way out, your "15 minutes" are over.

Oh look, common sense infuriates the idiot brigade into strawman arguments and hatred. Shocking!

Well I'm sure a good march will fix reality to your liking. Maybe you can occupy something until nothing at all happens. When that doesn't work you can picket instead of learning something or going on job interviews. That'll fix the underlying problem of people agreeing to work for low wages. Yeah.

Well done. I can see nothing, not even basic common sense will hold you back from mediocrity.

The bullshit is strong with this one, Obi-Wan.

@3 "Don't you fucking dare to agree to work for a given wage and then whine about it like a bitch." Working arrangements get re-negotiated all the time. If a boss moved a day-shift worker to the night shift, would you say "Don't you fucking dare?" If he cut back a worker's hours, or eliminated insurance benefits, or started requiring workers to supply their own uniforms, would you say "Don't you fucking dare?" I don't think so. I think you would consider it an employer's right to change the terms of employment at will, and to back up that choice by refusing to pay workers who wouldn't accept the new terms. Well, striking workers are doing EXACTLY THE SAME THING!

@6 '"You want chips or a drink with that?" isn't worth more than a few bucks an hour.' Actually, the cashiers and cooks at a fast food restaurant are absolutely vital, and without them the entire enterprise is worthless. If the owner takes a day off, a restaurant can run just fine. If the cooks and cashiers all stay home, no customers will be served and not a dime of profit will be made. A strike simply serves to demonstrate that fact.

@3 Agreed...them Occu-turds had to turn their all seeing eye somewhere...why not a mom and pop store???

Vermin.

@3 "Guess what? It isn't in his interest to support you."

It's in everyone's best interest to support a livable wage. I know it's hard to think of anything outside yourself, but when wealth is more evenly distributed everybody benefits. The examples of a booming economy vs this downward spiral we're currently leaving in are endless. Just think of people with more money to spend buying more stuff increasing demand, etc... and more tax revenue to invest in infrastructure, education, healthcare, research and development, etc... which in turn spurs innovation, start-ups, jobs, and a healthy, erudite workforce to employ.

Robert Reich summed it up with, "It's better for the wealthy to own a smaller percentage of a robust economy than owning almost all of a failing economy." Wouldn't you agree?

Another reason it's better for everyone to have a livable wage is, when people aren't struggling to feed, clothe, shelter themselves and their loved ones, they are much less likely to mug, beat, burglarize the rich. Think about it, people who are content (not complacent) aren't too motivated to put people to the guillotine.

@16 Hey, a real reply sans hate and false logic. Right on!

How does the living wage initiative play out in the real economy? OK, lets say we mandate a new minimum wage of $16/hour. Now you have entry level skilled / semi-skilled with time on job employees making minimum wage. What happens to their wages? The people senior in seniority? etc etc. You're talking about a ripple effect running right on up the salary pyramid.

Next lets look at this whole "owners are all fat cats" attitude. I'm not going into a bunch of analysis, that's obviously bullshit. Business owners aren't all rich, aren't all evil, and can't all afford to pay a minimum wage of $16/hour.

The middle class die-off, and the concentration of wealth and political power the US has seen in the last 40 years are a result of globalization and corporate empowerment. You aren't going to fix that with a higher minimum wage. You are going to reduce the available amount of jobs, bump up inflation, and increase costs across the board - which disproportionately affects minimum wage workers!

Want more money? LEARN A SKILL. There are plenty of jobs that pay quite well that do not require a degree - they simply require you to work your ass off. Put the xbox controller, the bong, and the picket sign down and learn to swing a hammer, write code, repair anything, and the list goes on and on. Occupying and discovering what a wonderful world socialism could be for under achievers is not a skill by the way.

And it's still absurd to whine about people crossing these picket lines. Not everyone has to support your cause just because you have a cardboard sign and an ill considered agenda which revolves around you getting more money for completely unskilled labor.

Has anyone else figured out the Living Wage angle yet?

It sounds good, but really, Starbucks coffee is going to suck at any price.

Jacking up prices will only cause the scum that actually pay minimum to employ criminal aliens, who'll work for a lot less than legal wages.

And in this day and age, if you are working for minimum, there is something wrong with your reasoning skills.

As for crossing a picket line; So. It's still a somewhat free country.

That was a major tease. Where exactly can I get this [product] for [such a low price]? I'm completely out of [product].

How about if employers don't want to pay a living wage for a job they actually do the work themselves? After all, if the work doesn't have much value anyway, then why bother even hiring someone when you can just do it yourself!

And for you geniuses saying just get more education or job training - if everyone took your advice, who would be left to ring up your purchases? Oh no, don't say high school and college kids. These days,good colleges want kids who volunteer in their communities, not burger flippers. And once in college, students are expected to intern (sometimes for pay if it's a good college). And if everyone took your advice, there would be a whole lot of unemployed and underemployed college graduates because the number of workers exceeds the number of jobs. That's called math.

Here's some more math for you, "just start a business" - I can tell you about that, since I have one on my own. First of all, not just anyone can do it. Two thirds of all new businesses fail. And what about start up costs? I was able to start my business while unemployed because my husband helped with start up costs and with living expenses for the first 10 months that I was not making a profit because of those start up costs. If I hadn't been married to someone making a good living, I never would have been able to do that. So "just start a business" is not an answer for most people, it's a brain-dead slogan for people who have no idea what it actually takes to start a business.

So keep striking for better wages and keep dissing the greedy SOBs who think about nothing and no one but themselves. Solidarity!

@18, your advice about learning to write code is especially crappy. Those jobs have all been outsourced to India. My husband had to learn hardware and agree to a job with 100% travel because of this. You have no clue what is going on with IT and computer engineering jobs.

@13, @16, @17 - comments worth reading. Thank you!

@18 Your ripple effect scenario only plays out that way if companies decide to make up their loss profits by needlessly increasing prices and if middle management or the skilled, semi-skilled, senior staff you speak of don't also demand higher wages.
Asking for $15/hour isn't a ridiculous demand. Adjusting for inflation, that is less than the minimum wage in the 60's and 70's.
Listen, we live in a world where corporations have been posting record profits for decades now, as cost of living has risen wages have stagnated, quality of life has slumped, and 95% of all income increases since 2008 have gone to the top 1% of earners. Asking for a livable wage at the expense of billion dollar profits is the farthest from unreasonable. It's not only the moral thing to do, it's the economically smart thing to do.
Look, I don't believe "the rich" are inherently evil. I, like most people, hope to be rich someday. But when income is this disparate it is next to impossible for anyone to move out of their station in life. We are talking about people with more money than they or their children or their children's children could ever reasonably spend, and that's the side you're taking?
Skilled, semi-skilled, professionals of course should be paid more. But someone does have to mix your drinks, flip your burgers, clean your windows, mow your lawn, etc... why not at the very least have them be content, with warm clothes and full bellies?

@ 25 I don't dispute any of that. The way to fix it is not a bandage soaked in acid though.

Want to fix wealth disparity, get more people employed in living wage jobs, etc etc? The way to do it isn't to lower the number of jobs available and increase costs to those least able to pay them.

End the h1b visa program. Reenact glass-steagall. Reenact a tariff system. Repeal citizens united. Repeal nafta. Repeal the bush era tax cuts. End globalization.

All these things separately or in concert will accomplish what these living wage folks want - and it won't be a poisonous placebo. But they want a quick fix, they want a massive raise regardless of the actual outcome. And how dare we cross this picket line? This short sighted unskilled entitled little prick picket line - with not a shred of guilt is how I dare.

@22/23

False logic, fail math, more fail (not even) math, and I find it entirely likely he took the job to get away from you.

Yes, there are no coding jobs / tech jobs in America, and of those zero jobs you can't self learn any, doesn't happen... you absolute clueless idiot.

Look, "TC" there are some things you just don't seem to get:

1)We're in an artificially-created and sustained recession-the rich are deliberately keeping the unemployment rate high to punish the country for very slightly defying them and twice-electing Obama by multi-million vote margins. It's silly that they are doing this, because Obama is only slightly less of a corporate toady than Mitt Romney or John McCain would have been-he's 110% pro-1% domination as opposed to their 112%-but they are doing it nonetheless. They like to pretend that they will "create jobs" once the voters "do what they're damned will supposed to" and put another Republican in the White House, but they really won't...unless you count creating jobs in Bangalore. Therefore, it's damned hard for anybody to GET a job in this country these days-and for reasons that have nothing to do with anybody's merits as a possible employee.

2)Given that it's hard to find work due to corporate greed, most people pretty much have to take and hold on to whatever job they can get, no matter how degrading, demeaning or shit-sandwich serving.

3)Therefore, most people CAN'T just quit a shitty job and go somewhere else.

4)That being the case, people have to at least be allowed to fight to make the jobs they are stuck with slightly better.

And(you didn't say this but someone like you upthread did)it's not a question anymore, in most cases, of the rich in this country getting rich because they provided a good or service that people liked. Most wealth is accumulated today in massively inflated shareholder dividends...dividends whose rate of return is artificially and destructively increased, in many if not most cases, by asset-stripping the company and by an obsession with "efficiency" that leads to mass layoffs, wage and benefit cuts for those who keep their jobs and have to work longer hours, and the reduction in quality of the goods and services offered.

So no, the rich aren't actually superior and the workers at low-paying jobs aren't failures-the latter are good people who are stuck in a nightmare and the former are mainly lucky that they haven't got caught yet.

Just because you are allowed to use expletives on this site, it doesn't further your cause. Granted it comes across as fashionable and the persons who read these words think you must be awesome. You are sadly mistaken. You are not awesome, you are a misguided union newby who thinks that the unions write your paycheck. I have been a union member for many years and enjoy the benefits of membership. There are ups and downs over the years when the economy is struggling because of the republicans, but for the most part the unions have helped wage earners get a better deal than they would if the republicans had their way. So, to sum up my short diatribe, quit using foul language unless that's all you know. And if that's all you know then post it elsewhere.

So it turns out it's totally possible to combine torches and pitch forks into one handy dandy easy to use implement. Anon, I would so totally give you a torch fork for Christmas, if only I knew who you were. Regardless, I won't be crossing your picket line or anyone else's. My boss would fire me for that if they found out. And yes, I know I'm a lucky bastard to be able to say that.

@TCLballardwallymont

You're an obnoxious troll, not for your opinion on the economy, but because you are a condescending ass hat.

You have no idea about the business the ANON is talking about, how long they've worked there, if salaries have kept up with inflation.

I agree that raising the minimum wage too fast isn't the way to go about it (it should have been tied to inflation the whole time), but you're obvious bias against those who want more just laws regarding taxes, economy, regulation is grating.

As far as "plenty of jobs", you may want to pull your head out of your smug ass and understand how bad things have gotten.

in 2012 the top 10% took home half of America's income. This is an all-time high over the last 100 years (since government started tracking such things). This wasn't an accident, the very rich have been gaming the system since the 1970 to get us back to 1930s wealth distribution.

You talk of killing off the middle class, well sir, that horse is out of the barn.

You may have a skill and make a good income like I do, the difference is I recognize I'm lucky and certainly don't think the system is working for most Americans.

You really think hundreds of millions of American workers are all lazy slackers? That they don't have a right to complain that their salaries have fallen 12% during the recession while corporate profits have surged?

Exactly where are all those jobs? We've wiped out the opportunities for those at the beginning of their careers. With sustained high unemployment why would any company hire someone with a year or two under their belt when they can get someone with 5 to 10 years for the same money?

But go ahead and keep bullying and trolling you fuck.

this is not only about minimum wage, it was also about stripping people well into middle age of health benefits for themselves and their families. Workers who had given 10+ years to these companies. For example, my mother. I am actually stunned by how cruel you are, tcl. Entry-level workers should simply learn a skill, huh? What about people who come from non-affluent families and cannot afford trade school while working their asses off to make rent at these minimum wage jobs? What about single mothers?And why should anyone have to explain to you why they took a minimum wage job? People are born into different privileges and make different choices, if they're working they should be able to take care of themselves.

Things are so fragile and there is much to be sad about. It makes me very sad that some people were raised to believe that suffering and inequality can't be helped. Its a real shame that some people can be smug about their perceived superiority to struggling families and individuals in their own city. It is awful that some people enter adulthood without learning that empathy and kindness are never frivolous and make everyone's fucked up lives better.

you can go read some more ayn rand, now. 👽❤🍄🍻🍕🐰💃💋

A few things to consider. First, can Anon's employer stay in business paying the wages that Anon and fellow employees want? Given the fact that the customer felt that he gets a lot of stuff at a low price, one thinks that Anon's firm is a low cost provider of whatever it sells and might lose this advantage with higher worker costs. The employer needs enough margin not only to just cover costs, but leave enough left over to make worthwhile the hassles of running a business.

Second, a point about government benefits. As long as the fed, state, and local taxpayers are willing to pay for supplemental income for low wage employees, employers are going to take advantage of this and wages for certain jobs are pushed down accordingly.

Third, progressives routinely vote for the politicians currently whooping for more immigration of low skilled, low education foreigners. If some "amnesty" bill goes through, wages will be further depressed for low wage jobs because of the added, hungry, labor supply. Be careful what you vote for, because you're going to get it.

Fourth, when Obamacare's employer mandate kicks in, firms are going to have to look even harder at headcounts and hours because of further added expense. Headcount and wages will be adjusted to keep enough profit to stay in business.

Good luck.

Back to the main focus of this disturbing and quite boring thread. Our Anon poster doesn't come out with his or her reason for posting this quite angry diatribe against persons who cross picket lines. My guess is that this person jumped the gun on the grocery strike and found out later that the grocery workers settled and all is good in grocery land. Your Anon post is a waste of time and I wish that the Stranger had not even posted your garbage and I wonder at my own sanity at wasting my time posting this.

Ahhh, the refreshing liberal tolerance of differing viewpoints is on full display here.

@32
Develop reading comprehension. I have a very clear understanding of the current economic climate, and even gave a (non-comprehensive) list of changes that could actually do some good. You babble on (I take it your good income isn't dependant on written communication) without ever once offering your opinion on anything besides my character. Way to be not only a libtard, but a completely useless and non-contributing libtard.

------

@33
"10+ years" After 10 years of flipping burgers, a burger flippers skill is still equivalent to that of a person who has been flipping burgers for 1 week, and valued accordingly. Get over it.

"people who come from non-affluent families and cannot afford trade school" Perhaps that is why I specifically pointed out skills that can be self learned. Yes, it is truly a shame that no one from a low economic strata has ever managed to achieve a great income on their own initiative.

"What about single mothers?" What? What about them?

"believe that suffering and inequality can't be helped." Uh, did you read my posts? They can surely be helped - but not by the living wage initiative. This bullshit will actually increase hardship for unskilled workers, primarily because there will be fewer jobs.

The term bleeding heart idiot was coined with you in mind.

@18: You're hilarious, expecting replies sans hate directed toward you. Idiot.

Keep giving liberals a good reputation treehugger!

Lets see, what are some positive qualities? Acceptance, diversity, tolerance, discourse, things of that nature yes? Yet a divergent political / economic opinion brings out nearly nothing but personal attacks and strawman arguments ala post 9 "Don't agree to work minimum wage if you want to be treated as a person.".

tike0vitz earned that shout out, and you my friend are a useless shit sucking bitch that can't converse without personal attacks. Not my favorite discourse style, but I'm certainly willing to apply it towards those who can't discuss matters without it.

You contribute nothing but feel entitled to attack those who do, you share nothing but hate on those who dare, you have nothing to offer and try to mask your lack of content with a shitty attitude.

Yeah, some picket lines are pointless, picketed by people who could easily be replaced by a teddy ruxpin and two rubber bands. Get over it. Welcome to America, where I can shop anywhere I want to.

The living wage agenda is being pushed by people who think that a company is evil when it sets a maximum wage for sweeping a floor, or flipping burgers. It's unskilled labor - it doesn't matter how long you do it, it's worth a pathetic amount of money. The real world problems of adjusting these wages (like killing a ton of jobs - unemployed is better than low wage? Fucking idiots.) mean jackshit to you treehugger, because you aren't up for making a real difference, setting long term goals and achieving them. No, no, not you. You, like others here simply want to give away other peoples money while assuming a moral high ground you haven't come close to earning and spouting character attacks. Well fuck you, cunt. You bring nothing to the table, you cheapen every discussion you join. You, the entitled skilless wannabe socialist IA writer bitch, and the rest of the haters can Occupy my toilet bowl while I take a giant shit.

Disturbing observation: Most of the commentary here in this thread are not even junior high level discussion.

@40 What do you expect?, deep discussions on malt liquor and cocaine?

TCLtallywhacker successfully trolled this topic and won by bringing everybody down to his level.

A good lesson to all on feeding trolls.

If you do cross that picket line you can still show your support by ordering a sandwich with the minimum toppings, but then requesting that the minimum toppings be increased.

TCL, I get what you're saying, and you're only partially right. When you are looking at small businesses such as fast food (the most commonly referenced minimum wage job), it can be difficult for them to offer a higher salary to their employees, and potentially might have to (slightly) raise prices accordingly. But that won't hurt their business, because everyone would have to. It might jump some .99 cent items to 1.19, but I think we can make the sacrifice on that.

And a drastic change could be highly detrimental, but a planned gradual increase to at least what it was decades ago (adjusted for inflation), if not slightly higher, would help. And who is more likely to be spending money at the places that would be hurt the most? The people who would be receiving higher wages and thus able to spend more (along with their bills). The economy benefits (before you say it, I know this is oversimplified, but it's a part of the solution, not all of it).

I don't know where this idea came from that a person who is not particularly educated or skilled doesn't deserve to make enough to live on. An adult 50 years ago could serve you a burger or sell you groceries, and they could live on what they made. Why shouldn't a person be able to do that now? It's not like the jobs aren't vital.

As far as getting skills and whatnot, my wife had a 4 year degree, and in order to be more hirable, she got a paralegal degree as well (at the time it was considered a job with a LOT of opportunities). For as long as we've been married (4 years), we've been in or near three major cities, and she's yet to be able to get a paralegal job, and can barely manage to find bottom level positions and temp work because every place requires 3-5 years of experience at least. Now on top of only being able to get a minimum wage (or only slightly better) temp job, she also has to pay back student loans. Your solution would have been great 10 years ago, not now. If you think otherwise you can't have looked for a job for the past 5 years.

@41

@40 What do you expect?, deep discussions on malt liquor and cocaine?

Gave up malt liquor and cocaine a long time ago, asshole. Go back to community college and take an English class. Maybe then you can make a coherent argument.

@44 I wasn't making an argument, I made an observation about feeding trolls.

Your sophomoric and cliché retort, "go take an English class", makes me wonder how you do not see your own participation in bringing down the level of discourse. It's a pretty big blind spot that you might want to reflect on.

I didn't know the whole "ML and C" was a touchy subject for you so I apologize. It was supposed to be funny, not damaging, but obviously it made you lose your shit a little so, again, I'm sorry.

It's unfortunate that it also made you miss that I was agreeing with your @40 post.

Oh well, new I Anon today so onward and upward.

BTW: Fuck off with your dissing of community colleges. I graduated from a state college but spent a year at a CC and it was a great educational experience.

"After 10 years of flipping burgers, a burger flippers skill is still equivalent to that of a person who has been flipping burgers for 1 week, and valued accordingly. Get over it."
Please consider having that engraved on your headstone.

You are assuming an awful lot here. I'm certainly not saying the specific job I'm talking about is at all intellectually stimulating, but it did require technical certification from a trade school. I know it's really convenient for you to blanket all service jobs together, but they do have differences and hierarchies.

I'm not saying profitable skills can't be learned without formal education, I actually couldn't agree more, and that's how I'm paying my own rent. But I was able to do that through my specific means of privilege that I recognize many other people don't have. And being self-employed does not grant one health insurance, which a lot of people can't survive without.

I wasn't able to take this seriously as a debate to begin with and never treated it as such because this is the internet so obvious LOLZ. I just think it's inaccurate to act as though everyone who works a service job is unintelligent or lazy. Some of them are. So are some programmers, so are some CEOs, so are some (a lot of) artists.