I could have pushed you off as soon as I knew what was going on. You aren't bigger or stronger...
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Is it any wonder that there are so many single people in the United States contentedly loving alone?
The best way Anon can heal and move on is to deny her rapist the ability to keep on hurting her. As long as she allows that pain to rule her feelings, he still has control.
Ah yes, here it comes: "Don't blame the victim".
And of course, that's correct. But I'm not blaming the victim, simply saying that everyone has some degree of personal responsibility, and part of that is to not put themselves into the middle of a nexus of assholes and than get falling-down-drunk-shitfaced, and pass out.
Sort of a "common sense" thing.
Of course even the passed-out drunk-off-their-ass ladies do not deserve to be raped, no one does.
But of course, common sense tells most people that it may not be a good idea to go to some party with sketchy people you don't know, proceed to consume so much alcohol that you pass out on the couch... Not a good idea.
Personal responsibility, folks. People need to stop blaming others for their own fuck-ups.
Anon, like you, I'm so fucking tired of assholes who can apparently read social cues well enough to hold a job, to drive a vehicle and predict when another driver is going to pull out in front of them or swerve into their lane, to detect jokes and sarcasm in social situations, to recognize when someone is lying to them, but suddenly claim to "not understand what she meant" when a woman says no to them. I am so sorry about what this rapist did to you. I am so sorry your social group isn't a safe place for you to seek support. There are more of us who understand than you might think, and I hope you find some who can help you deal with the aftermath.
Yes, many commenter here will ignore this part of your post entirely:
For every man who has heard my apprehension and hesitation and thought the subject was open for debate. That thought their erection took precedence over my comfort. That thought I'd like it once we started. This is because when I say I don't want to, I shouldn't have to have an army of excuses at my disposal. This is because "I don't want to" should be enough! And this is because not one but many men have employed these tactics against me. I'm sick of all of your excuses for manhandling me and bowling over my resistance: "But you're so sexy..." "But I thought you liked me..." "But you have such a nice ass..." "But I just want to fuck you so bad..." "C'mon baby..." Stop! Just stop.
Because they don’t think saying “I don’t want to” should be enough.
@1, 3, 4, 5 , 10 and to a certain degree 8: If it weren’t before noon where I am, I’d say let’s go get drunk together. At least we can count on none of us thinking that would be an excuse to rape each other.
The key question is: does the definition of rape include when the recipient says "no" in a variety of forms, is repeatedly ignored but eventually allows the act to take place when they *could* have prevented it?
I use *could* because this is the tricky point. Is Anon indicating that she lacked the self esteem/confidence to push him off or is she now blaming herself for becoming overpowered? - But how much difference does it really make? Haven't women been raped in this way since ... always, pressurised, manipulated, intimidated?
The "take more responsibility" stance seems similar to the age old advice to kids against bullying where one should "stand up for yourself" and "fight back" ... handy to know if you aren't already terrified. So, yes, it does sound like victim blaming to me.
Arthur, yes, to some degree I agree, I am old enough and smart enough now to know that, but when you're younger, and society tells you a whole slew of mixed messages about yourself and your sexuality, and where those boundaries need to be, you can't necessarily figure it out for yourself after a few beers.
And what? SHe's supposed to go out and remain sober on the weekend just in case?
I get your points, truly, but yes, to some degree, she should be able to lie on a park bench naked (Ok, maybe not in Pioneer Square), and not get treated like that.
I was on a bus last summer, some douche felt me up, and I wasn't being stupid or not sensible, it happens anyway, men can sometimes be pigs, common sense has nothing to do with it, even if it should.
I, Anon put herself in a situation with people she should have had at least a smidgen of clue that she couldn't trust (and who altimatly let her down by inviting Asshole Number One to the party), and proceed to get hammered.
This *IS NOT* the same as wearing "tight jeans" and having some asshole say "you asked for it". Not the same at all.
When you put yourself in sketchy situations with unreliable people and proceed to get hammered, the outcome can often be not what you would like. But when you set yourself up this way, you also bare some responsibility. We all bare some responsibility for our actions the may or may not lead to bad things
Seriously, what kind of people is this person hanging out with? Horny 20-somethings, obviously.
And to all you haters, Fuck You.
1. As a survivor of childhood sexual abuse, i not only do not have clear boundaries when it comes to my own body, but i also have a horrible, passive guilt that was raped into me from the age of 5 on. Saying no, let alone fighting back, is not something that comes naturally to me. i learned early on that it was much easier to be quiet & not to fight...too much. That my body was something to be used & abused. Though i WILL say no, i will always end up just giving in. This is only in situations where it is a male that i know. Violent stranger rapes are a different story. While the OP may not have the same experiences as me, i understand, on so many levels, what it is to have your resistance worn down. And statistically, the majority of women do experience some form of rape or sexual abuse in their lifetime. And how do we think that this might affect them?
2. Personal Responsibility.
Let's put this into 2~
1. Women absolutely do need to start taking responsibility for their own safety. But, dudes don't get to have it both ways. We are to blame if we go to a party, drink & get raped. Also, we are to blame if men have sex with us when we say no. Look, i am no fan of 3rd wave feminist culture. And we will leave it at that. And i do hope that our young ladies start making choices that don't endanger them. But, check it ~ asking a young college woman to not drink, & to not be raped, is like asking a lamb not to wander into the pasture & be naturally eaten by wolves. THAT is what is, & what has always been.
The difference is that we are now calling it out.
Do we blame the sheep? Well, the coyote is hungry. We aren't sheep anymore. But, i don't think that we know what we really are.
i think that she made a really good point. She said, it wasn't him. She saw what had happened to her & came to a place of knowing. She found her boundaries. That is fucking Awesome.
But, yeah, I'd love a world where everyone was so trustworthy and nice that you could just get completely fucked up and lay around in peace.
The guy was a rapey POS, but I,A do you plan to repeat your experiment and see if the results become more to your liking?
As it seems to be the basis of your argument, I think it's fair to challenge you to demonstrate that is a reasonable assumption.
Btw, if you think that everyone that disagrees with you is a hater then you really need to develop some nuance to your world-view.
I for one don't give a shit about you one way or another ;-)
I think Arthur may live with pirates.
Saying she got raped b/c she showed bad judgment is exactly like saying she got raped b/c she wore tight clothes. It is the same argument.
I shudder to think about all the stupid things I did in my twenties. I went out alone late at night, I smoked, I drank, I got high, I made out with other women in bars, I had one-night stands, I once left my purse in a bar with a friend who thought I had left after the place closed and then I didn't even have cab money or change for a payphone to get home-I was literally stranded on the street that night and mercifully a kind cab driver took me home safe and sound at no charge (there are angels out there, too, not just monsters).
If it was true that only bad girls got raped, then no good girls would ever be raped either. If it was that easy then women could avoid being victims simply by covering themselves head to toe and never going to any parties ever. No one gets to blame her for what that asshole did.
That said, would I ever do those stupid things I did in my twenties again? No. I'm in my thirties and learned from my mistakes. I know now that I was just lucky that most of the people I met along the way in life were pretty decent human beings and not rapists.
Of course it's important to protect ourselves, and if the LW asked me for advice I would tell her (from experience) that passing out drunk around people she doesn't know and trust completely is dangerous. But the most she is to "blame" for is not taking precautions to protect herself from people with evil intentions. The ENTIRE blame for the evil itself rests with its perpetrators.
" Yaaar! Shiver me timbers ye all be poltroons!"
::stumps off dejectedly on peg leg to feed parrot::
Sometime in the night, one of the floor guys started to touch my chest, lingering there. I presume he was trying to rouse me, figuring it was worth a shot. I couldn't figure out what to do except continue pretending I was asleep.
Sure, I could have called him out, then and there. I was not confident enough to do that. I was afraid of being embarrassed, like somehow it was my fault, or I handled things wrong, or whatever.
Thankfully, that was the end of it. He gave up and went back to sleep. This was almost 40 years ago, sexual assault and rape had more particular definitions, then. If you weren't beat up, or you didn't fight, then you wanted it.
I take anon's word that she could have stopped it if she wished, but did she know what would happen if she had? I don't know, either. Would her friend believe her over another "friend"? Would something ugly occur in response to her refusal?
There really are people who find it easier, safer, less threatening to go along. It's messed up.