Columns Feb 12, 2009 at 4:00 am

Free Spirit, My Ass

Comments

105
unfortunately, most get married either too soon, or with too little forethought. I suspect that in this case she knew nonmonagamy was not for her, but admitting that to either her fiance or to herself would have stopped the wedding. To her credit, it sounds like she tried it for his sake, and a dozen times is not a little effort. However, she knew and agreed to this repeatedly. I have difficulty having a lot of sympathy here.

If, like many, this is a goal oriented relationship, (as in; her goal is to have the wedding, snare the man and the living marriage be damned) then anything like this would jeopardize the goal. I had a five year long relationship that moved in a similar way, I was honest about my needs, she accepted this until it came up, then she could not handle it. It is sad, but we have a duty to be honest about such things.
106
Why did the SBOOO's husband marry her? She said she'd explore swinging, not commit to it. Seems to me that she has explored it. And any woman with a rape fantasy will tell you, what's good in your head might not be good in real life. SO she thought swinging would be good and it turned out it wasn't: not her fault. BUT, why would a guy to whom this is so important marry a woman who hasn't even tried it out? I'm a sub and I know it, and I wouldn't wait until after the wedding to be dominated. If for some reason I had to put it off, I'd wait to get married. If this is such a big deal for him then he should have made sure he knew exactly what cards were in her hand before he proposed. It seems to me that they were both honest, but that she underestimated the level of importance this held for him, and he overestimated the level of commitment in the words "explore" and "experiment".

Maybe they can make it work, MAYBE, but they need a marriage counselor who knows up front that they want to find a way for HER to be okay with HIS swinging, not to just change him.
107
One reason Dan was so harsh with SBOO is in the first line in his second paragraph. No Marriage Counselor I can imagine (except maybe in the weirdest of California) is going to be on the guy's side. So Dan's making up for the leventeen couselors SBOO is going to dial up to bolster her case by coming down on her HARD (sic). While I winced once or twice while reading it, I can not say Dan's advice OR his tone was anywhere but bullseye. Please. "My career kept me too busy to test-drive - even once, even one evening, even TWO HOURS - the one deal breaker my Fiance, Future Husband, Soul Mate and Till-Death-Do-Us-Part-Guy had." Honesty has to be part of any lasting relationship, let alone a marriage. She was not honest with him, and if she's telling the truth about thinking she'd be GGG, not honest with herself. And, like all the realists here, I think she's not being honest (yes, LYING) to us in her story. She thought she could change him. (Gee, we NEVER hear that from a bride-to-be, do we?)

Dan - once again - rocks.
108
The biggest problem I have with this letter is that SBOOO gives no details except that the night they discussed him going elsewhere for sex, he offered to go to a stripclub. Does no one see this story as incredibly manipulative and designed to place SBOOO in the best light possible? She only mentioned that action to twist the knife and somehow make it seem like her husband is a jerk.

I can't believe the readers are harping on that detail... we don't know the entirety of the conversation yet people are up in arms about how insensitive the husband is. That's exactly how SBOOO wants you to react! Why else include that little tidbit?

Wake up, people, and see this letter for the self-serving, self-pitying bullshit it is.
109
Your response to SBOOO-hoohoo was right on. If anything, you went easy on her. Women think they can CHANGE a man by marrying him. When will they learn!
110
Well, it looks like the consensus among Savage Love readers is that your advice to SBOOO was spot on. I have to agree and no amount of terseness should be spared in dumping her problems right where they belong in her lap. There are men out there who aspire to monogamy, tho probably rare (95% of mammals are NOT monogamous by nature). When a guy tells you upfront that he enjoys variety - he is being honest. To lie to him about accepting that and later moaning that you don't like it is just plain dishonest and idiotic.

111
thanks, dan! i'm poly myself, and i always appreciate when someone vocally sticks up for poly people. especially someone as widely read and trusted as dan savage.

i almost never disagree with you!

why the heck would you marry someone that you don't really KNOW you're compatible with? if you were a straight man, would you marry a lesbian? what if you were best friends and you really loved each other?
112
your advice to sbooo was ok but incomplete. he has obligations too. this entire marraige isn't about him fulfilling his sexual desires. i think that divorce is not the only option, and that they should examine this "outward trajectory" thing. if he is ONLY interested in sex with other people and not with her, that's not ok either. if he is making an honest effort to please her as well as please himself, and she is making an honest effort to accept his sex with other people, then maybe it could work. i think at this point neither one of them is doing all they could be, because they are too angry with each other.
113
It's true that SBo3's husband was foolish for not insisting she try it before they got married, and its true that she may also have been "foolish" for not trying it - although it's more likely that she was one or more of scheming/ selfish/ self-delusional.

He'll pay for that foolishness in alimony for a looong time while she'll be rewarded with all the sympathy and $$ she needs.
114
Advice to LOADED: Whatever else you do, drink pomegranate juice.
115
Want to takes bets that she will be pregnant before she get divorced?

Nothing perks up a sex life better than kids screaming all the time.
116
I am in a similar situation to SBOOO. I entered into a relationship with someone about a year ago. I told him from the beginning that monogamy was not an option for me; however since it was a new idea to him I would take it slow and not jump into bed with someone else right away. Its been a year and he is still saying, "not yet."

I told him from day one that is what I feel is best for me. Sadly we both know that me being nonmonogamous and him being monogamous means our relationship is going to end. However, he isn't being a whiny jerk about it. You can't be in a happy relationship with someone that isn't happy. It sucks, so figure out a way to compromise or move on and find someone more compatible.
117
So many people hating on SBOOO! This is one of those situations that you can't really know how you'll feel about till it happens. Which means Dan is right regarding the "shoulda tried it BEFORE you got hitched," but it doesn't make her an evil person or an idiot. Nor does it mean divorce is the only option.
Sounds to me like what she needs is a supportive community (not to be found here, apparently!) and some good advice from people who have been there. There are thoughtful listservs for swingers/poly people, and (finally!) some good books on the topic (check out Jenny Block's "Open: Love, Sex, and Life in an Open Marriage"). So SBOOO's husband likes to fuck strangers; SHE's the one he fell in love with enough to make a lifelong commitment to. It takes a lot more than a couple conversations to cast off a lifetime of pro-monogamy socialization, and in my experience it's often harder for women (since they get socialized a lot more intensely in this regard). It's conceivable that SBOOO could expand her horizons enough to tolerate, if not embrace, swinging. Sure, she should have done this before tying the knot, but that doesn't mean it's too late. If you're reading this, SBOOO, do some reading before you rush out to find a lawyer.
118
Dan
SBooo had it coming but I feel for the hubby. I had this cool chick;- loved movies, books, sex, making out,hanging with my friends etc.
2 years into the marriage;- hates my friends, No oral, (for either of us) hates movies, reading books, kissing.
Turns out what she really loves to do in bed is eat snacks while watching TV.
sb
119
Hmmmm. Thought I think your final advice to SBOOO is spot on, I have trouble with your degree of criticism. SBOOO did communicate, and there was no indication that she lied when she said that she was interested in exploring those issues. Sure, she discovered that she's a lot smaller of a person then she thought that she was, but since when are you down on exporing your sexuality. Exploring often leads to failure - finding things that you don't like. SBOOO thought she liked the idea of merry-go-rounds, but then discovered the unpleasant side of motion sickness. Wasn't it also her partner's responsibility to be sure that tey were both good with swinging before they got married? And why was a swinger so interested in marriage? There were clear failures on his part - in particular the glaring obnoxiousness of leaving his wife on the very night of this conversation to go swing. Don't you think that that might have been a good time to go for dinner and do something togther (if he was actually in interested in his wife rather than just possessing one). Sorry, Dan, I don't usually comment, but you ripped one half of a real two person problem on this one. Divorce now, SBOO!
120
Whether or not SBOOO was open to the idea or not, the fact is that if she had been smart enough to think that perhaps, this is something she should investigate BEFORE getting married she'd have found out long before the nuptials that she wasn't into it, saving herself all this heartache. It's hard to have sympathy for someone who FUCKING KNEW her husband would want to do this and then instead of making sure she was down, busted out some lame ass excuse about being "too stressed at work" which is such a patently obvious lie, I'm astounded anyone believed it.

However, her husband is ALSO a raging moron who should have pressed the issue to make sure he was marrying someone who would be able to fulfill him sexually. It's hard to have sympathy for someone who accepted "oh, we'll explore it after we get married, hon" instead of doing more to ensure that he was marrying someone who wouldn't flake out on him.

She probably thought when she married him she could change him, and she would suddenly be "enough" for him. If she tried it a couple times and said she wasn't into it, maybe she thought he would give it up for her sake, and she's now discovering that that isn't the case. But couldn't he have waited a week before skipping off to an orgy? It sounds like she wants to be GGG for him, but needs a little help to get there.
121
Excellent reply to SBOOO. False advertising is always fucked up.

And I'm a monogamist, BTW. I'd hate to think what it would be like were I deceived into marriage with a woman who claimed to also be a monogamist, only to find out after it was too late that she wasn't. Ick.
122
Dan,
Clearly SBOOO made a mistake not exploring the swinging thing before marriage, but Jesus you really blasted her for it. I agree with you that her husband is unlikely to change because, well, he told her so! Without all the judgment, you could have said simply that she made the mistake and it's hers to fix. She needs to decide if she can live with the situation and leave if she can't. If she does leave, she should do it in a way that doesn't make her husband look like an asshole or blame him for it. But I guess you have to entertain as well as advise so most everyone gets a good laugh at SBOOO's expense.
123
I think that one reason Dan came down so hard on SBOOO was the privilege issue: her husband wants to sleep around and she doesn't. In the eyes of the vast majority of the people out there -- including a grossly disproportionate number of therapists and judges -- that makes him Ze Bad Guy, period. If she tells why they're getting divorced he is not going to get a fair shake from his family, friends, or the courts. She is in a position of strength thanks to the culture around her and so should be able to deal with a little bit of a verbal ass-whipping.

BTW, I'm with those who call bullshit on the "no time to try it before marriage!" excuse. She didn't try it before marriage either because she knew she wouldn't like it, or believed she wouldn't like it. Either way she clearly knew or intuited going in that This Wasn't For Her. Kudos to her for trying, but she knew. (And, to be honest, I do wonder just how passive aggressive resistant those efforts were.)

BTW2: Put me in the category of those who are profoundly suspicious of therapists. I saw 'em in operation in the dozens of divorce files that I handled. Most of them, whatever their other merits, had a "it's the husband's fault" default setting, (which was very useful when representing the wife).
124
I STILL (STILL) don't understand why someone who just wants to run around and fuck random people would want to get married in the first place. What's the point? Can anyone explain this?

Marriage is supposed to be a partnership, which is why couples swing together. Same as grocery shopping together, eating together, etc. You love your wife, you find her hot, you want to do stuff together, including group sex or whatever because you both like that too. This is swinging.

Random fucking without your spouse isn't swinging. It's random fucking. It's basically what you do when you are single. So why get married?
125
@ the outer rim at 6:31 pm:

A spouse is a life partner on whom you rely for countless things. A lover is a sex partner on whom you rely for only one thing. Having somebody that you want to be committed to for everything else in life is not incompatible with wanting sex with other people. You're just restating a position that drives poly folks nuts: that one's sex life must be irretrievably fixed to one's person and that no true commitment can exist without monogamy.
126
"to one person"
127
As for SBOOO, I agree that they should part now as cleanly as possible. BUT. One aspect of swinging, to which I can ruefully attest, is that often male partners are less interested in satisfying than being satisfied. Then there are all those variables like preferences, hygiene, bad breath, awful technique, or basic incompatibility. These problems can often be happily addressed within a long term relationship of whatever sort, but become major obstacles to pleasure in one-off [sic] situations.

You guys sometimes forget that women's orgasms are not the foregone conclusion that yours tend to be.
128
In regard to SBOOO, he was honest, and I'd bet almost anything that SBOOO thought that she could change him after they were married. This is a common illusion (or delusion) that has destroyed a lot of marriages. I've heard that line from a lot of divorcing friends--mostly women.
129
Going through the responses, (and especially the one from Chris down in The Couv) we the reader just don't know what SBOOO said to her husband before their marriage - about how much 'she was into it' even through she had her doubts. Yes husband should have been more careful to involve his wife in his parties before they were married. There were some writers who were saying how the partying wasn't happening before the marriage - but I bet it was for the husband. SBOOO just wasn't part of it.

The part I don't see in any of these responses, or the letter from SBOOO was exactly what kind of parties she was expected to be part of. Maybe her thing was to be only involved with one other person, another guy or gal, a couple or a small group. It seems husband went off with any stranger(s) and maybe SBOOO just didn't like that. In the end, they both should have been more honest about their needs. It's too bad because they were probably compatible in other areas.
130
SBOOO, like many women, thought she could change her almost perfect man into the perfect, faithful one she wanted--a man who only had eyes for her. But what about this thought... Why did hubby marry her without one single "experimentation"?Hmmmmmmmmm? If swinging is such an important part of his sex life, wouldn't that be worth a test? KInd of an Alexander Dumbass, don't you think? Oh well... like many of us he ingnored a big red flag and married the manipulative bitch anyway.
131
I've had many great monogamous relationships, some long term, some lasting only a few months. The bigger problem here seems to be with the fetish of marriage, as if any desire by our partners should be accommodated to preserve the union. Many people seem to judge her because she didn't know or reveal her preferences BEFORE they got married, as if everything should have been laid out before the big dress was donned. Honestly, does it matter when she decided/revealed/discovered that swinging wasn't for her? Marriage is the anachronism. Not monogamy.
132
Hey, SBOOO. I have an idear that will make you feel a lot better.

You know that guy? The incredibly hot guy at work you always lust after, with a face like Jon Hamm? Invite the gang to happy hour. Get him away from the herd. Tell him about your open relationship... that you're free to have NSA sex. And then do it. You don't realize the gift you've been given. Use it.
133
I ONLY read the city paper, because of you! If you don't have a column that week, I don't read the paper! Thanx, I learned sooooo much!
134
Yeah I agree that SBOOO had that coming but I also think that they both jumped to rationalize the situation too quickly before marriage. If she didn't have any experience with open relationships prior why didn't they tested it out before getting hitched! Both people have a responsiblility to protect their neededs and make sure the other isn't putting on a good show before such commitments are made. It sounds like he projected a bit too, he should have made sure they tried it before marring her. Swinging/open/poly is the type of thing you're either into or not, and you don't know if your into until you try it. She may have been dishonest and does sound like an idiot but I think he is too for not making her walk the talk before commiting. So I don't feel too sorry for him either. All this is assuming the person is for real, this letter had a false vibe about it.
Dan I have to say you are cranky lately. I'm a regular reader of SLOG and noticed some of your answers to student questions were a bit turse. Drooling pussy eaters can give you yeast infections let alone feel really creepy and gross.... but oh yeah you don't care about pussy so just tell the twats their pussy will melt. Orignal.
Well even though I hate it when you get shitty (your writing isn't as good) I still dig you. I hope your winter travels come to an end very soon and hope your mood improves.
135
yeah no one has any sympathy for sbooo. i get that. way to chum the water for all us sharks, dan!
136
While I don't sympathize w/SBOOO, I don't blame her either, as people change their minds/values/priorities all the time. Once she realized this, the only choice, difficult as it is, is to break up & move on.

But I'd also be curious to know what the husband's take is on this, i.e. does he love his wife enough to give up the extramarital stuff? If not, all the more reason for the split.
137
The only thing I'd change about the response to SBOOO is in the first sentence: it should read, "You are a FUCKING idiot."
138
"I'd also be curious to know what the husband's take is on this, i.e. does he love his wife enough to give up the extramarital stuff?"

Ummm... I kinda think that Dan has made clear that -- IHHO -- getting the husband to give this up once he was in the marriage was kinda a central objective from the get-go.
139
ugh SB is the kind of woman who ruins things for the rest of us. Not all women are that insecure and need to misrepresent themselves in order to 'snag' an amazing man. No wonder women are seen as manipulative and fickle.

Some women know exactly what they want and know themselves sexually enough to KNOW whether monogamy is for them or not.

That said, Dan, I love you.
140
great response to SBOO. My guess is you nailed it. I'm impressed. keep it up!
141
Dan - you lack compassion and give poor advice.
142
I thought you were a bit harsh on SBOOO. Why not refer to her to a poly/mono group? At least she has an honest husband who was up-front with her from the get-go, and that's a positive. I doubt that their marriage will work in the long run, but you never know. Sometimes people adjust.
143
RIGHT ON re: SBOOO.

RIGHT. ON.
144
SBOOO reminds of me of Fag Hags who fall in love with their gay male friends, despite it being made perfectly clear from the outset that such guys are gay, with the hopes that their love will "straighten" them out -- and then the Fag Hags resent the gay men when this inevitably Does Not Happen.
145
20th century, meet the 21st. The key statement in SBoo-hoo's letter is "I can't help but feel hurt that I alone am not enough for him." That's the old-thinking, the huge ego-stroking demand of partners (male & female) that they're so fucking incredible & important that their spouses should be completely satisfied w/ just them. No one is enough for anybody. At least the poly-people try to put their desires in practice, most people just settle. And no one's ego is so important that another should sacrifice their own dreams for it.

That "I should be everything for my partner" is a tired ego-stroke that's no longer useful. It should be called the Old Perversion.
146
Here's my question: did they not have sex at all before they got married? Cause otherwise I find it incredibly difficult to believe that hectic work schedule or not that SBOOO couldn't have figured this out a little bit. If she's too rushed to have had anything but once or twice with him, perhaps she should have put dating or marriage on hold in the first place until she could devote more energy to it. Stupid bint
147
I feel no pity for SBOOO - quite a few women I know (and men, for that matter) go into a relationship or marriage thinking that they can change a fundamental personality aspect, or kink, or bad habit. They then become disappointed or upset when the change that was so crucial to their own sense happiness fails to materialize. Having been subject to the relationship bait and switch a few times myself, and it really sucks. If you aren't willing to pay the price of admission for the show as advertised to begin with, don't enter. Sorry SBOOO - I suspect there will be no refunds for you, nor do you deserve one. Best thing to do is kindly and gently leave.
148
I think you guys are being a little too hard on SBOOO [not you Dan].. she THOUGHT she would be up for it and after a lot of trying, she wasn't. I don't think this means that she deceived him or lied in any way because she didn't even know herself that she wasn't going to enjoy it.
149
As long as her husband loves her, comes home to her, is careful with other people, and restricts meetings with other people to a reasonable number of instances per month, what is SBOOO's problem? What is with the obsessive/jealous/ownership tendency of most women towards their men? My husband and I are apart from each other months each year, and I don't care what he does with others during that time, as long as it's clean and safe.
150
I feel sorry for SBOOO. I mean, she went to the counselor, she's trying to make it work... it's not like she expects you to agree with her. You were way too hard on her. She may have been a little naive, but her intentions were (still are) good and that shouldn't be punished.
151
There is little doubt that SBOOO has no one but herself to blame. That being said, as a previous commenter stated, many people don't know themselves sexually. I think this is especially true for women. Whether that is the case or not here is unclear. Still, you should keep that in mind Dan.
152
Wow, amazing how what one learns and how it applies to so many different things. I now realize that I, SBOOO's husband and many posters on this discussion thread (including perhaps Danno Savage, but he at least has stated the sound reasons for his position and he has his schtick to uphold). I learned tonight that I am lacking in tact! I'm tactless. I look at my earlier comments and I see how I'm tactless. It's remarkable. I see that many of us posters here are tactless.

Fascinating the things you can learn from your experiences.

SBOOO's still a moron (a nice tactless comment for those who don't get it), but there's more than one way to say it. My way (both in this thread and above) is perhaps not the best way to do it, but SBOOO (and her husband too) is still a moron all the same.

Tactless... Wow, what a concept! :-)
153
I agree with your smackdown of SBOOO, but wish you had pointed out to readers that part of being a good non-monogamist partner is making sure that your primary partner isn't always on the short end of the stick. Why should his sex life be on an outward (linear) trajectory? He should be able to have his cake, and sometimes stay home and eat her, too... and going out the same night she agreed he could swing alone was pretty damn cold.
154
Everybody had a wet dream,
everybody saw the sun shine.

A really healthy man who has 20 orgasms - not a candidate for cancer

A really healthy man who has no sexual fetishes or addictions - also healthy.

Some guy who has to try to reach orgasm because of sexual fetishes and addictions does it way too much for his age - after a few years he is not going to be a healthy guy
155
Good Advice for SBOOO, Dan.

She tried something and discovered she wasn't compatible. The best thing for her is to realize that it is only just that and to "Keep Walking On".

Lord knows we've all tried somethings that we couldn't do more than once or twice or maybe just one more time! She gave it more than one go, where's that story?

There was something good enough there for him to say yes to the marriage in the first place, not just the promise of a polygamous lifestyle - right?

The best thing for her is to realize that it is only just that and to Keep Walking On.
156
Look, I'm with you on SBOOO. But SBOOO's hubby is not without blame. Men and women misrepresent themselves to one another all the time, right? When your paramour tells you she's into swinging, great. But when she can't make time for it because of a 'stressful' job, well, any man older than 22 ought to know where this is going. Yes, he was honest. Yes, she was not. But I'm not going to give him a free pass for blindly relying on the sort of obvious misrepresentation that any reasonable man would have seen through long before the engagement.
157
I love the answer you gave to sbooo and I love the way you said it! Someone that thick in the head, ignoring the totally obvious, has to have the answer applied forcefully to get it thru. Why do those mono chicks tie up all the poly guys so I can't find them??
158
Wouldn't marrying under false pretenses be grounds for a full annullment?
159
SBOOO is fucked. my only qualm with your response, as a therapist i would definitely NOT side with SBOOO and would have much the same response to her, and support for her partner just with slightly different language... slightly. hopefully i'm not in the .01%, but if i am, sobeit... i'll talk louder at therapy parties.
160
The only thing I think you missed with SBOOO, Dan, is what about the husband? He married her before they explored their sexuality thoroughly knowing that perhaps she might not enjoy swinging. Don't you think the responsibility was mutual regarding vetting the sexuality before marriage?
161
sboy, lying in bed, eating? sounds like your wife could be depressed. Might want to go at it from that angle, trying to help her rather than pout about lost playmate.
162
I couldn't get through all the comments about SBOOO so maybe somebody's made this point already, but I think Dan was too hard on SBOOO.

I would say that SBOOO's letter indicates a lack of self-awareness but not manipulation. She doesn't trash her husband or berate him for his poly ways but rather states that she didn't like the poly stuff once she tried it and admits to feeling resentful. Often, it's hard to know what something's really like until you try it. Fantasies and real life rarely jibe. She doesn't betray any sort of scheming either.

I think that SBOOO needing to wait until her work stress lifted was a red flag that she wasn't ready--one she clearly missed, again indicating a lack of insight. I don't, however, think that it's unreasonable to postpone major life changes during times of duress. I think Dan was too quick to dismiss the impact of work stress here.

Yeah, SBOOO calls herself free-spirited and yeah, she's probably not, but lots of people identify themselves in vague or downright incorrect terms. (Try going on a date from the personals and you'll see what I mean.)

She should divorce this guy as they are incompatible, which will be stressful but not as much as it will be for them to remain married; the sooner the better. It could be worse though, they could have kids and they don't--yet.

Based on what SBOOO has written, I don't see either one of them as being the bad guy. There's a lot of vitriol in the posts though which doesn't seem justified considering what SBOOO wrote. Despite her moniker, i.e. Sex is Best One On One, she doesn't trash the poly community. She doesn't trash her husband or men in general either, so what's up w/ all the hostility?

Do posters assume she's manipulative because she's female and uptight (also an assumption)?
163
"I wanted to spend my limited free time with him instead of exploring our sexuality with multiple partners"

SBOOO, that was your clue right there - one-on-one is the thing that's most important to you, even if you really were fooling both yourself and your husband about your ability and desire to swing.

What you need to consider now is what you're really "crushed" and "hurt" about - is it the swinging, or is it your inability to change the man you married?

If I were talking to *him*, I'd say get out of the marriage - you were honest with her, and she's rejected that honesty. But as I'm talking to you, I wonder if you could take a deep breath and rethink this for the sake of your relationship?

Reading your letter, it seems to me that a lot of your resentment is that your husband needs someone other than you: I think it's about your ego, not necessarily your sexuality. "I feel resentful after these episodes, and I don't feel like having sex for days." Are you sure you're not just sulking because he won't do what you want? You might do better to find a way to deal with this and learn to play alongside him (and thank your deity of choice that he's being honest about it, not doing it behind your back) - rather than lose "this amazing man".
164
As someone who could be the guy in SBOOO's narrative -- my thing isn't flat out openness, only an intense liking for FMF threesomes -- I empathize with her husband. After a particular threesome 10 years ago and subsequent events, I finally came to the conclusion that this lifestyle (which my parents practiced during 50 years together, bless their hearts) was essential to my personhood. I wanted a kind and loyal woman partner who enjoyed prowling and tag-teaming together, not for my gratitude alone but for each of us. Threesomes, the way I saw it, were for each party's pleasure, not just on or two. That's the whole point.

I subsequently advertised for bi women partners who actually enjoyed threesomes. I was clear that my relationships hadn't succeeded with straight women. I got quite a few responses each time.

Many nice and some wonderful women took me up on my invitations to get together. These inevitably began with making plans for tag teaming women but once the relationships were further along, suddenly those plans evaporated. Three different relationships respectively resulted in: (1) my partner's "bi-ness" turned out to be a "curiosity" that didn't really want to get worked out; (2) a thing of the past (the cliched "college fling"); or (3) a victim of maturity as in, "I liked that when I was younger but now I want to settle down."

Don't get me wrong. These were great women on every count; we remain friends. They just weren't sexually compatible with my fetish. Our relationships were never fully satisfying for them or for me. Sadness more than anger accompanied our separations.

Now I'm with a fourth "bi" woman (I know she has been, she has the reputational credentials and her past women lovers -- most of whom have married and live conventional lives -- call her frequently). Talking about our mutual (I thought) fantasies about women over the last year, I thought I'd finally met my match. But after two embarrassing nights watching her tease but not act on other women's desires, I'm about ready to chuck it all and live solo for awhile. I'm not a spring chicken, so partners may be harder to come by if and when I'm ready once more to give it a try. But to tell the truth, I'm not so eager about entering another failed relationship -- and being a sexual minority, that's more likely than not.

I have terrific empathy for all people with kinks and festishes and gender preferences that make them targets for others, whether those others are out and out predators or simply, as in my case, well meaning women who couldn't get that I was being honest about my difference and they weren't.
165
I think you came down to hard on Sbooo Dan. She is an honest girl in the sense that she wanted a marriage just like he did. I mean there is an exclusion factor here otherwise why get married?
166
Back in the 90s I read a book called "The Ethical Slut" that was a real eye-opener about the true challenges in long-term poly-relationships. Just because one is in a poly-relationship doesn't mean stuff like jealousy, communication and other ethical issues just don't apply. These things cannot be negotiated only once. Like most things in relationships - nothing comes or stays perfect forever. A true willingness for "negotiation" and "adaption" is very important, and this cannot be a black and white situation, but with shades of grey, give and take with *both* parties caring about what is important to/for the other person. It seemed to me that this was totally lost in Dan's reply. I guess he seemed to think he was up against a wall of conformist pro-monogamy bullshit. Maybe that was a "strawman argument" and maybe it wasn't - sometimes there are dealbreakers that mean the relatinship is doomed. But I don't think I'm alone in suggesting that there could have been some constructive advice for SBOOO instead of dumping all over her.
167
I think SBOOOO was deluding herself as much as she was her partner. Delaying the experimentation until after the wedding was stupid, but she did try after they were married and then discovered she didn't like it. Perhaps she thought this "amazing" man would reform, but perhaps she was hoping she might like it.

Sadly, it seems like one of them is going to be unhappy with their sex lives if they continue to be married.
168
SBOOO's husband is an ass, and you're enabling similar men to be similar asses. His wife was willing to "explore" a dozen times. Just because she's "free-spirited" doesn't mean she's going to enjoy sex with someone other than her husband. Can't you be free-spirited within a marriage, and legitimately decide that swinging isn't your thing after several experiences? And what's wrong with this guy that he won't change his incredibly selfish lifestyle for his wife? Going to sex parties alone? He deserves for all their friends to think he's a selfish prick. But I hope SBOOO learns from this - "open marriage" is an oxymoron.
169
http://b-theshortlist.blogspot.com/

Also good advice for people posting to craigslist
170
Dan! I'm so sad that I missed you when were in Anchorage!! This is especially depressing since I originally suggested an Anchorage visit to your publicist, or whoever it is that arranges these things for you. At any rate, I'm wondering if it was recorded and if there is somewhere I can find a copy of it, and if you'll be back. Thanks!
171
Dan,

Your comments were right on target to SBOOO. People who try to change the rules of the game after signing the marriage contract have no integrity. This example reifies why only mature, honest adults should marry each other. Stay strong.
172
To the husband of SBOOO, divorce her, and file it under fraud. Then get the marriage annulled legally. That way you won't have to pay her ass anything. I'm not really siding with either here, he sounds like a pig, and she sounds like a blind idiot. Too many of us women think we can change a man if we can get them to marry us first. Not cool. But he did tell her all of this up front. So shame on her.
173
I really would love to hear why they needed to get married in the first place.
174
I couldnt help but notice SBOOO's hubby just happened to know there was a sex party the very night he brought it up to her about going alone!
175
Well, exactly HOW honest was Mr. SBOOO before the wedding?

Did he say, "This is something I really need to do," or did he say, "Gee, wouldn't this be fun to do?"
176
Vic Torey-Paughn:

God how sad, I hope you find someone for you.

What I think a lot of SBOOO defenders don't get is that Dan came down extra hard on SBOOO because the husband is going to be the bad guy in everyones eyes when the divorce happens. The husband is going to get shit on, and the wife is going to get all the sympathy. The letter is one small attempt to even the scales. It's supposed to be harsh.
177
"Frequent Sex And Masturbation In 20s And 30s Linked To Higher Prostate Cancer Risk"

http://www.physorg.com/news152191908.htm…
178
SBOOO made a blunder that's unfortunately all too common these days: she got married before she really knew herself. And now she's trying to force a round marriage into a (very) square hole. What she needs to do is grow a pair and be honest with her husband, without blaming him. "I thought I was okay with this, but I'm not," is a good way to start, and "I think you deserve to be with someone who doesn't just TOLERATE (barely) your preferences." Of course, it doesn't entirely sound like she does think he deserves that. But he does. Everyone deserves to have a partner who doesn't scorn them. If he loves her, he won't want to see her hurt by his behavior, and in this case I think that means divorce.

I get the impression, however, that even if they break up she will still see his poly desires as a personal affront. I don't hold it against her that she doesn't love him enough to change, because I don't think anyone loves someone else enough to change who they are fundamentally, but it's unreasonable for her to expect him to.
179
really *REALLY* tired of all the people mistaking poly for swing, or vice-versa. Swing is about sex. Poly is about relationships. Yes that usually involves sex, but its about living life together as a threesome, foursome, or moresome. Even if outside relationships are not also connected romantically to one's primary partner, it is far more succesful when the primary and ancillary partners are friends, the closer the better.

I'm not saying this to run down swing. I've done that as well and it was a lot of NSA fun. But as time passed I gravitated toward a poly outlook. Besides, we consensual non-monogamists can afford to judge each other when we have an entire society that will happily do it for us.

SBOOO isnt down with the swing thing, either solo or couple. Yeah, shes a manipulative bitch for trying to make her husband change after she got the hooks into him. But perhaps they could salvage their marriage by changing their non-monogamy focus more toward poly by finding a third or another couple to, well, call it "exclusively swing with." Aside from being safer in the long run, it might be a compromise they can both live with.
180
Go Dan, Go! She said she wanted you to be straight and honest with her...I put myself into a position like that in my early 20s and just because you are willing to experiment you think the other person will get it out of their system, blah blah blah, but it never works that way. If you want a cuddly monogamous relationship, you have to find one and you have to know that someone looking to swing isn't going to "grow" out of it or "love you" enough to change...THAT IS WHO THE FUCK THEY ARE AND THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE TO...and bless that out and out swinger for being honest to his woman even though she wasn't honest with him. I hope they both find what they are looking for.
181
In regards to LOADED, I'd like to point out that Taoist practictioners have been practicing ejaculation denial for centuries to little physical detriment. In fact, they claim the loss of semen is a loss of vital energy. I would advise him to do a google or wikipedia search for more info on the topic, perhaps include a search for injaculation as well.
182
TO LOADED: Gloves cut down on the "ick" factor significantly. I have some experience with milking.
183
Women like SBOOO that makes free-spirited girls like us looks bad. I hope her husband have a chance to read this and get the divorce ASAP from this selfish woman.
184
thats a really messed up situation i feel that sex should between only a husband and wife in a marriage and if they want other partners they shouldnt be married!!!
185
Is anyone honestly not thinking that it was a little fucked that the husband didn't actively get her to 'swing' before he married her? I realize that she wasn't completely honest with herself (nor him) but it's not like he doesn't have any responsibility in ending up in this situation.
186
Damn, Dan, do gay dudes have periods? You were awfully harsh on SBOOO. Like bitching out some pregnant teen because she *should have* used protection. The lady is asking for your help, not a moralistic lecture. Yikes, is this what parenthood has done to you??
187
Damn, Dan, do gay dudes have periods? You were awfully harsh on SBOOO. Like bitching out some pregnant teen because she *should have* used protection. The lady is asking for your help, not a moralistic lecture. Yikes, is this what parenthood has done to you??
189
SBOOO did it A DOZEN TIMES before deciding it wasn't for her. Sounds like she gave it a fair chance. Dan needs to be as fair to conventional sexuality as unconventional. Poly is not for everyone, just as monogamy is not for everyone.
They are incompatible, yes. But it's not SBOOO's fault anymore than her partner's -- if he was so committed to poly, he could have insisted she try before marriage. He said those vows, too -- nobody made him do it. Now they both have to own their HONEST mistakes.
190
None of us can possibly get an accurate view of SBOOO's situation from this one letter. All we can say is that she didn't try it before they got married, and that makes both her and her husband kind of dumb.

Dan, I know you were trying to balance the view of conventional therapists, but coming down so hard on SBOOO makes you look like a hypocrite. IMHO you should take the high road and treat vanilla and kinky types the same.
191
I totally agree with the advise you gave, however I was just wondering how some of the guys would feel if the shoe were on the other foot. Poly woman, monogamous man?
Which is the marriage I'm in.
As a poly woman, I listened to my husband, and decided that I loved him more than I love sex with other people.
Not that I agree with SBOO but there are compromises, if both partners are willing.
by the way. happily married for 10 years. no slip ups
192
Not exploring a prominent sexual fetish before marriage is about as stupid as staying a virgin 'til your wedding day. They should get equal blame for both assuming the other would fall in line.
193
What if her husband was really into anal (I know, what a crazy fantasy!) She's never tried it, but he told her how much he loves it and how important it is to his sex life. She says she'll give it a go, but then... doesn't. They never get around to it. She's turned on by the idea, interested, but tentative, and it never happens. And yet they're still having sex, and he seems fine – fine enough to marry her without ever having had anal sex with her. So how incredibly important can it be, right? Anyway, she tries it a dozen times, like she promised, and dislikes it.

So was she lying about being open to trying it? Was he stupid for not emphasizing how important it was t o him (so important he couldn't possibly marry someone who didn't share his tastes)?
194
Just reading the first ten comments posted in response to SBOOO, I find it utterly ridiculous the assumptions made in the comments that followed. First of all, I feel that the majority of the comments result from stereotyping the mass of females. Statements like, "Women need to be important enough to incite a change in their partners.", "Women strive to control the relationship.", "Women always make false promises in hopes that circumstances will change in the future." It's wrong to judge her based on the fact she has a pussy. Now let me tell you something about the biochemistry about what we humans feel as love.
Physical and emotional love, both strongly linked by a set of chemical reactions that occur in our brains. Love is all about your brain purposely making you feel irrational in the hopes that you may just well reproduce. Now those of you who have been in love, who hasn't made poor choices, who hasn't had unrealistic thoughts? Idealization is the foundation of romantic love. Obviously they both idealized the situation due to the mass amounts of dopamine and serotonin their brains were pumping out in each others presence. Good news to the both of them; the chemistry behind "falling in love" lasts in the realm of about two to three years. (Doesn't this sound like a familiar extent of time for your own personal relationships?) After that the people who actually stay with each other for decades are those who complement the other emotionally, physically, enjoying the others company, and in some cases spiritually. To judge her (and him) for marrying someone they loved is absurd, marriages are tough with or without high fidelity and i doubt after making that sort of commitment the two of them were unaware of the possible obstacles down the road. But since they obviously do not meet the criteria of a love for the decades then I would advice her and him to enjoy the marriage and the relationship as long as they feel passionate about the other, and as long as they can tolerate compromise, because it doesn't last long, and it doesn't happen often in ones life and when it's over it's over.
195
I think people are missing the thrust of the issue here. SBOOO isn't complaining that he wants her to participate and she doesn't - she's complaining that he wants polygamy and she wants monogamy. Yes, she made a go at being a participant and I think it's fair for her to say "not for me, thanks." What is unfair, however, is for her to say "I'm not into it, and therefore you shouldn't be either."

It appears that for him, her participation was negotiable but polygamy was non-negotiable. For her, it appears that what she was willing to "try" was not so much participation but having a non-monogamous partner. Fairly standard miscommunication - each assumed they were negotiating the same thing.

My wife and I had the same experience about something completely different.

Me: I'm flying to Philly with Tom this weekend.
Her: I thought we talked about this already?
Me: About what?
Her: You flying.
Me: I'm not flying the plane, Tom is.
Her: You know what I mean.
Me: We agreed that I wouldn't get my pilot's license. You never said I could never be in a plane with someone else.
Her: I can't believe you.
Me: Look, we fly all the time.
Her: That's different.
Me: He's been flying for 12 years. How is it different?
Her: Look, I don't want to have this conversation with you now.
196
I know! I know. Different strokes, etc....but my old fashioned male hunger for orgasm combined with a feeling for the natural in life's journey, says orgasm limitation is missing more than a cooperative mate. Should either partner's ego and libido be built on controlling the other's ego/libido? Even with permission. Sounds like more of a dominance issue. What the hell - t'ain't 4me! NH friend of sex
197
regarding: "So ejaculate frequently, guys, or ejaculate rarely, because it would appear that moderation in pursuit of prostate health is no virtue." I laughed so hard when I saw this because I believe this will start a movement among men: they *have* to have sex several times a week.
198
I remember back in the day, you had a column where a girl entered a relationship with a guy with the agreement She would find a girlfriend for them both to share. Like an ass he backed out and said she was "cheating" (what were the rules?) and he would too. You took his side. could it be you got smarter?
199
I too feel bad for sbooo, but she definitely had it coming nlp training that might help you in some way.
200
Um, SBOO didn't just say she was up for exploring. She explored. About a dozen times. And she didn't like. Yeah, sexually incompatible is the reality now, but ya know, he married her before actually establishing that they were compatible, too. This is on BOTH of them.
201
I disagree on the advice to SBOOO -- because it seems like she honestly thought she could handle it and she tried it out, and only then found out she didn't like it. It doesn't make the situation any less messy, but still...
202
Who said SBOO was a woman?
203
THAT WAS TRULY f**KING FUNNY. I JUST RAN ACROSS THIS COLUMN, AND THIS PARTICULAR BLOG WAS NOT ONLY INSENSITIVE, BUT CREATIVELY STRAIGHT-FORWARD TRUTHFULLY! I THOUGHT I WAS MATTER-OF-FACT PERSON, BUT HELL YOU HAVE ME BEAT ALL HANDS DOWN. SBOOO HUSBAND LAID ALL HIS CARDS ON THE TABLE BEFORE THE MARRIAGE, AND SBOOO PREMATURELY AGREED TO SOMETHING SHE NEVER EXPERIENCED. THATS LIKE SAYING OH IM GOING TO TRY HEROIN OR CRACK AND NEVRE GET ADDICTED BECAUSE I CONTROL WHAT WANT AND HOW THINGS TURN OUT, NOT!!!!PEOPLE CHANGE, SITUATIONS CHANGE, AND LOVE IS TOTALLY UNCONTROLLABLE, IN THIS WORLD NOTHING IS CERTAIN AND THATS FOR SURE! LIVE AND LEARN, AND DEFINITELY GET OVER IT!
204
THE MIRENA IUD IS HORRIBLE....PLEASE DONT SUGGEST ANYONE TO GET IT, AND IF THEY ARE SEEKING SO, TO PLEASE GO ONLINE AND READ BOTH PRO AND ANTI VIEWS. MY DR, LIKE MANY OTHERS, TOLD ME IT WAS THE BEST CHOICE AND THE SIDE EFFECTS WERE SLIM TO NONE. YET AS SOON AS I LEFT THE DR'S OFFICE I WAS BLEEDING CRAMPING, AND THROWING UP IF I TOOK JUST THE SMALLEST BITE OF FOODS. CONCURRENTLY, I HAD A FOUL SMELLING BROWNISH DISCHARGE WHICH RUINED MANY OF MY PRIZED LINGERIE.I HAD TO BATHE THREE TIMES A DAY. THEN THE BLOATING FEELING, FACIAL HAIR, ACNE, AND MOOD SWINGS WERE ANOTHER REASON IT HAD TO GO. I HAD THE THING IN FOR THREE MONTHS BEFORE I COULD GET IT TAKEN OUT. WHY SO LONG? WELL THE FIRST COUPLE VISITS THE DR COULDNT FIND IT. SO I HAD TO HAVE IT SURGICALLY REMOVED, WHICH WAS EVEN MORE DEVASTATING. I HAVE HEARD GOOD THINGS ABOUT THE PARAGUARD BUT ONLY BECAUSE IT DOESNT HAVE ANY HORMONES WHICH HIGHLY CONTRIBUTE TO THE SIDE EFFECTS MOST PEOPLE EXPERIENCE WITH THE MIRENA. SO BASICALLY I DONT ADVISE ANYONE TO GET THE MIRENA, AND TRULY BECAUSE IT WAS A WASTE OF MY $1000 THAT I INCURRED GETTING IT IMPLANTED AND REMOVED. P.S ABOUT HAVING ANAL SEX, YEAH YOU WONT GET PREGNANT, BUT YOURE STILL A RISK OF GETTING A STD BEING THAT YOUR BOYFRIEND WHO WE KNOW NOT OR COULD BE TOTALLY FAITHFUL. I SUGGEST YOUR BOYFRIEND GO ONLINE TO FIND A DURABLE CONDOM THAT WILL ALLOW HIM TO HAVE MORE OF A NATURAL FEEL. THEY CAN BE COSTLY, BUT TRUST I RATHER SPEND MONEY ON A QUALITY CONDOM, THAN EXPERIENCE AN STD EVER.

AS FAR AS MS. CALIFORNIA, THE DUMB BLOND SET HERSELF UP FOR THAT BACKLASH, WHICH SHE DESERVINGLY GOT. PEOPLE SHOULD NOT CAST JUDGEMENT AGAINST OTHERS, OR PRESS THEIR BELIEFS ON OTHERS.......SHE WILL NEVER REPRESENT ANY QUALITY OF MISS AMERICA.
205
About SBOOO, well he was honest that -swinging- was important for him to have in a relationship. Quite often the appeal to swinging is that you do it as a couple. Swinging and one-sided polygamy are different sexually and emotionally for all parties involved. I, myself enjoy swinging with my partner, but if he told me he wanted to go have sexual experiences on his own, it would be a no-no.
That being said, for someone to pick it apart as far as I just did would have to have very selective thinking. She convinced herself that for him it was with her or not at all and that was obviously not the case.

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