Savage Love

Hump! 5


@Wild Horses: Use an online dating site. Get a book on online dating from your local library or independent bookstore first. Let the women get to know you online, where they won't be quite so knocked out by your physical beauty, and your intensity will be somewhat muted. For people who are not at their best on first dates, virtual introductions are a godsend. I know at least three happily married/cohabiting couples who either met, or, due to distance, did most of their courting online. They all remember their courtship as very romantic, and they have all those emails and IM's tied up in virtual pink ribbon in their inboxes as evidence.
Yes - I've dated an 'intense' guy also. He wanted LOVE, and had all of these expectations and ideas for the way it would be. But it was all about him. What never seemed to figure into it was the actual other person, and her interests and passions. He got way too into me way to fast, but... he didn't actually know me. Just the idea of me.
I wish you'd add little "YOWZA" thumbs up symbols to comment features. I want to point at 'not a romantic' and 'spinal' comments and say, yeah, what they said without taking up valuable space in the comments section.

(by adding the comment about the comment feature, I am writing something original..which means now I can say Yeah! I bet they got that guy pinned: Too needy and not really seeing the Romantic Object as an actual person.

Only two letters? HUMPH!
That said, Dan, you were the best part of the This American Life simulcast Thursday last. You managed to let the emotion come through with losing your grip. Did your mom proud, even if she's NOT looking down on you from the clouds. Plus, you're looking a lot hotter than I expected, after reading all your promises to grow obese in middle age. Been hitting the gym, have we? Reeow!
Just a thought. I wouldn't mind some perspective on this.

Socially, I think it is more acceptable for women to be in love with idea of a relationship more than the man being in love with the idea of a relationship more than woman. I mean, why are women so obsessed with wedding porn magazines? A girl gets boy friend, she wants to parade him around the girls and make a spectavle of him. I'm not accusing anyone of this, but it's sad when this happens.

And yes, unfortunately I'll openly admit that often I use my women as props. I'm an intense guy, who likes spectacles dates, and adventures. I do offer a lot in return, but to get to my agenda there really is most certainly a HUGE level of trust that needs to happen before you can have an intimate experience with someone. Funny how society works these days, but giving a girl flowers is like 12th base!

I'm drawn to this thread because it well, because Dan for starters, read this so totally wrong and he is usually quite good. I'm baffled at how he missed this one, really really baffled.

But the other thing is, I obviously am intense and attractive looking person. It sometimes depresses me that this weekend, it would be much easier and productive for me to find a lay than someone to accompany me on my motorcycle to the olympic peninsula and eat shellfish. But with a little time and experience, this conundrum will work itself out. As sick as it sounds to some people, and at least for now. DATING MORE THAN ONE PERSON AT A TIME helps me control the intensity. By not putting all my passion in one basket, at least for me, helps me to take things a little lighter and not be all obsessive and possessive about women. And then stangly enough, things inevitably fall into place and you DO get those intense experiences you desire. Then with time, you can build trust and filter it down to one girl. Who won't feel smothered, and I won't feel so dependent on "the one".
oh yeah ... after my fifth that that sounds way too douchy.

Never post hungover
Anyone else read the statement about an "intense and consuming" relationship and start thinking it sounded a bit too Jeffrey Dahmerish?

@ Faygelah RE: "extreme" therapy

I accept that "extreme" without qualification was probably a poor adjective choice in my original post. I may have been reading too much into WHDMA's comment about counseling "to try to tame my personality" as considering therapy to change himself, not to gain a better understanding of himself and his relationships. I think that he does not need to take the extreme measure of trying to alter his core self, as I originally interpreted his comment. I agree that therapy to "improve his relationships and get some self understanding" would not be extreme, and that I likely misinterpreted the intent of that remark.

It sounded like his friends were available and interested to help him on this path to understanding. If that is not true, or if he is uncomfortable accepting their help, then therapy would likely be a good option in the pursuit of understanding. However, if he is looking at counseling as a way to "tame his personality" without understanding, then I see that as a... well... extreme option and do not recommend it until other avenues for solving his problem have been explored.
This has mostly been said already - but when someone labels themselves as 'intense' and 'romantic' it's offputting because it's this awful combination of genericism - they're not feeling intense and romantic because of anything special about YOU, it's just how they are, and expectation - they're investing so much, you need to live up to it all. It's discouraging and exhausting (to me). I'd so much rather feel that as someone gets to know me well they find they feel like they've never felt before, than have to live up to some intense ideal they built up before they had any idea who they was.

But then, I don't actually believe in love at first sight.

But I'd say therapy is a good idea. More self-awareness is almost always a good thing.
Talking to a therapist is not at all extreme.
Intense But With Marbles Intact -

Can you stop posting now? You frighten me.
To the first guy, look up Randall Woodfield. You sound like him.

Nice joke. :)

And... no... I had to post again it seems...
Dear Anonymously Me,

Looks to me like you just discovered your prostate. Enjoy.
Regarding Wild Horses, in all my 39 years of living, the most intense relationships I have witnessed tend to be a double-edge sword. On-the-one-hand, you can literally "feel" the chemistry between the two people, even in their glances at each other. But, on-the-other hand, stay the hell away from them when they fight, because anything within a 10 mile radius gets annihilated. Intense relationships = the most volatile. With the extreme highs, come the extreme lows.

Yet, those relationships that I have witnessed enduring the test of time, are the couples that connect with a person that ultimately becomes their "best friend." "Best Friend" relationships tend to compromise more, respect each other more, laugh with each other more, fight less, and last for years after the sex has become less intense and takes on that "ordinary & familiar" feel.

The question for Wild Horses is, which relationship does he ultimately wish to end up with?
Bad advice from Dan again...
Come on Frau... you want to watch from a safe a distance ... binoculars or thanks to technology, fast frame remote camera!

wait, so that guy won't have sex with his girlfriend for ten days at a time because she's on her period. the thought of sex with a girl on her period makes his 'stomach turn'? i don't think he can be considered heterosexual...and also he sounds like a total asshole. she should dump him.
Tee hee. Book of Mormon.

If you had balls, real balls, you would have made a Koran (and not a translation, but an arabic language Koran) as the extra credit prop.

Oops, can't risk offending Muslims! Especially not the ones that stone homosexuals to death!

OK to offend Mormons - they'll only respond by prosletizing you in a polite way.

The word "intense" is a euphamism for psychotic, self-absorbed freak! Dude is a serial killer waiting to happen and I, for one, don't want to be gyrating my beav at some hot azz hip hop club when spooky intense boy goes psycho and pulls out the gladiator sword he bought off of some lame nerd website. Don't even think of pullin' no crazy azz shite without buying me a Lemon Drop first, oh yeah!
Hermione Hairpie,

I find it amusing that you can so confidently and exclusively label "intense" as a euphemism, for "psychotic, self-sbsorbed freak!" and, in the same post, accept someone like that as long as they don't "think of pullin' no crazy azz shite...


Your self-endangering shallowness,either comical or real, is astounding. If you don't even have thoughts of self-preservation, I doubt you have any accurate thoughts of other people's characters.

And expressed throughout with spectacularly bad grammar and spelling.

I'm sorry to point out. :)

Actually I'm not sorry... no...

Here's a clue. Your letter is all "I,I,Me,Me,My." It's a first-person express train from yourself to yourself. There is only one statement that reveals any doubt about your greatness, where you say you fuck up and make yourself lonely, but you're still talking about you and yourself. You made yourself lonely. What about the woman? Did SHE have any thoughts or feelings? If you don't know, then there's your problem.
Menstruation sex is the best; you don't need any lube. Just keep a towel nearby.

DTMFA already, since you could have someone enthusiastically fucking you all 10 of those days.
Why the hate on Mormons?: Book of Mormon. If you had balls, real balls, you would have made a Koran (and not a translation, but an arabic language Koran) as the extra credit prop. Oops, can't risk offending Muslims! Especially not the ones that stone homosexuals to death! OK to offend Mormons - they'll only respond by prosletizing you in a polite way. COWARD!

First, you should clearly understand any antipathy The Stranger would have towards Mormons. LDS members poured in tens of millions of dollars to pass Prop 8 and defeat same-sex marriage in California. Mormons forcing their values on gays and lesbians via Prop 8 isn't exactly "proselytizing in a polite way." I've no doubt that plenty of Muslims voted for Prop 8 too, but they probably weren't the force that Mormons (or Christians) were, due to lack of money and people.

Second, it's not fair to call The Stranger a coward vis-a-vis Islam (or, more specifically, repressive Islamic fundamentalism) when, in February 2006, they DID show real balls by running four of the infamous Danish Muhammad cartoons, accompanying an excellent article on Islamic fundamentalism by Bruce Bawer.…

But, all that being said, if your point is that Islamic fundamentalists are more rabidly hateful (and rabidly violent) towards gays and lesbians -- as well as towards people who are critical of their prophet, "holy" book, and religion in general -- than are Mormons (and Christian fundamentalists) I couldn't agree more.
WHDMA sounds like a psychooooo
regarding "anonymously me", there is a word in the english language that describes him very well. it is "retarded".
When people refer to themselves as "romantic," "idealistic," and "intense" it usually means one or more of the following:

1. I'm desperate
2. I'm unrealistic
3. I'm arrogant and self-idealizing
4. I'm unwilling to compromise
5. I'm needy and clingy
6. I'm deeply jealous/possessive
7. I'm emotionally unstable
8. I'm an asshole wrapped in sweet-smelling fantasies of my own idealism and attractiveness.

Any ONE of these messages would send most prospects running. Wild Horses must be sending off more than a whiff of several of them...
celebrate my anus now
Even though a lot of women and men have already commented on the 1st letter, I have to add my own $0.02 to WHDMA's letter. Here is a translation:

'I am very fit and very attractive':
I am arrogant and self absorbed.

'I am well-read and well-spoken.':
I am a show-off who is extremely insecure about my educational backround and intelligence.

'I march to the beat of my own drum.':
I am a poorly socialized creep, with a consuming interest in science fiction, witchcraft, renaissance fairs, computers, guns, knives, political demonstrations, environmental issues, cars, motorcycles, obscure musical groups, militairy reenactment...(fill in the blank.) I usually dress all in black and have wierd facial hair and a lot of piercings and tattoos. And they look stunning on me!

'Friends tell me my personality is intense.':
I am overbearing, loudmouthed, and want every person in the room to focus on ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME! I will do anything to make sure that I get the attention to which I'm entitled. I am very proud of all my abrasive qualities and don't care who I offend, or how. I'm just perfect this way. I really don't agree with the people who actually have the nerve to tell me otherwise, even if they are my friends. (And they're SO lucky to have me!)

'I'm extremely idealistic.':
I am self-righteous and intolerant, and never miss an chance to lecture people as to how they should be doing things MY way.

'I count myself as a romantic.':
I'm looking for a Barbi doll who will conform to my rigidly defined sexual stereotypes. In exchange, I will publicly embarass her with a lot of extravagant 'romantic' gestures that will call attention to ME ME ME ME! and demonstrate what a great guy I am. I will remain stubbornly oblivious to how uncomfortable and embarrassed those public gestures make her feel.

"I am looking for an intense and consuming love affair with a woman.":
I am an insanely jealous, emotionally immature whacko who expects to find a woman (anyone with a pulse will do, as long as she's very very attractive) who I will stalk, smother, and control. I will make sure she has no time left in her own life to work, hang out with friends or family or spend any time without ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME!

'Friends tell me my approach to women scares them off.':
I am desperate, socially tone-deaf, and unable to understand why women don't fall at my feet and worship me.

'Yet, when a lady friend of mine suggested I spend a night out with her where she would act as my wingman, I recoiled.':
I am in the habit of GIVING (undsolicited) advice, not taking it. I will NOT be contradicted, particularly not when it comes to my own high opinion of myself.

'Prowling for random women in a bar doesn't fit my sense of romance.':
I always strike out, because 'ladies' don't hang out in bars.

"Should I consider counseling to try and tame my personality?":

GOD no! Frankly, you sound like a sociopath. Counseling doesn't benefit them, it just teaches them to be better sociopaths.

for the niece of Flo:
10 days seems painfully long.
talk to your ob/gyn ~ using low dosage birth control pill to regulate your cycle might be a good thing.
sorry redblues. My boss is a sociopath, and he does just fine.

And no he wouldn't write to Dan Savage.

I think you are close, but here is the thing. Genuine sociopaths don't have to ask for help, for some sick reason things just work out for them.

All of those things you state, are ALMOST true. For some reason the intense the person gives off the vibe of and a scent of a sociopath, while the real sociopaths get off scot free.

The truely "intense" person is like a person who is given lanky clumsy body that works horribly in adolescence and takes some time to fill out into adulthood. They just need time and experience to get social maturity, and maybe some judging by blatant naysayers who just don't understand them. Just so they know what NOT to portray.

If you think about it, there is a slight difference between self centered and selfish. Self centered means a lack of awareness of what is going on around you and your impact on others REGARDLESS OF INTENT. I've hurt many people due to ignorance, and made many mistakes the hard way. It sucks, and something I genuinly feel guilty about. Selfish means to take without consequence, ie sociopath.
as a not-so-intense, plain old honest asshole and misanthrope, i would recommend that wild horses post a personal ad, as detailed and personality-driven as possible. who you are, what you want, what will happen in this relationship (i even went so far as to post that the living room of my shared apartment with my next boyfriend will be lime green. and it was!). worked for me, and i'll even be married in two weeks.

thing about us assholes, intense or not, is that while most people don't fit our standards, we will put it all on the line for someone who does.

i don't think a personality change is necessary, just acceptance of the fact that us assholes may never find someone we tolerate, and we're okay alone. better off alone, even, instead of with someone we don't really like. and the same can be applied to people's dealings with us. no hypocrisy here. not everyone meets everyone's tastes.

bear in mind, however, that specific, dramatic tastes don't equal "romantic." controlling and picky, sure. but own it, roll with it, don't try to soften it, and you'll find someone who fits you.
Dear Wild Horses, try shutting up, and being polite. You'll get laid right away even if you're butt ugly. I promise.

"Intense" coupled with "marching to the beat of your own drum" equals someone who needs to get over themselves pretty damn soon because he thinks he's not being true to himself if he doesn't say every damn thing that comes into his head and express all of his opinions, which of course comes across as "thinking he knows everything." Or, "asshole."

Wild Horses, try meeting a woman at a bar (or coffee shop) and telling her NOTHING about yourself, except maybe your name and age. Instead, ask her a thousand questions about herself and only say, "That's cool." Or, "That's interesting." Or, "That must have been hard/fun." Try just listening, dude, and not reacting.

You will still be the exact same person. Your romantic soul will be the same. You can still have all of your opinions, if you still want them after you learn about other people.

I wanted to add some information for "AFTER". First, as a woman, I would NOT be giving the guy a blowjob during the time he refuses to touch me. Hands (and mouths, and other body parts) should go both ways.

Second, if the boyfriend doesn't agree to mutual cessation of activities during the period of her period, she needs to DTMFA and suggest he try dating an Orthodox Jew or some other woman who heeds the strict language of Leviticus 15:19-28. Sounds as if he's on that page and he needs a woman who's agreeable.
I'm with het middle aged mom /Dan fan----

Dan--!!!!!! You are one hot stud!!!
Not every sociopath is successful. I've known more than one who were abject failures. And some of them are successful in one area, but not in another, like 'Wild Horses'. Either way, everything is all about them.
Intense SWM should may do well to find out what the girl he's interested in considers romantic. He should totally take up the offer of the female friend to be wingman, and maybe really listen to what his friends are saying. If he's actually interested in Romance.

As for AUNT flo problem, two words -- tampons and oral. No fuss, no muss.
Amen to seating Al Franken. Love, All Minnesotans who wish Norm Coleman's circus would pack up his goddamned tents.
WHDMA could take a page out of this guy's book-- he's less intense:…
I swear, this year's Hump! was made for me. It's like... destiny. Fem Domme, Pegging, CFNM, the BOOK OF MORMON?!?!? It's like fate wants me to dive into porn! :D Thank you Dan!

Don't listen to the whiners who are bitching about less letters. I am SO glad you informed me of this. I owe you. Big time.
Hey, your article said "Book of Mormon" but the ad in the link says Mormon undergarments. Which I imagine may be a great deal harder to get my hands on and incorporate. Your ad is misleading, Dan. I blow a raspberry in your general direction.
"Extremely intense" does mean in fact mean asshole... but it's the special kind of asshole that does not possess the social skills to read the signals that other people are sending out that clearly say, "what an asshole!"

"Extremely idealistic!" Is a euphemism for being overly picky.

And wanting an "intense and consuming love affair" with someone you haven't even met yet, screams "stalker in training."

Good luck with the treatment for Narcissistic Personality Disorder!
Sixteen months later, here's a thought for the guy who won't have sex with his girlfriend during her period.

I used to refuse to have sex during a girl's period (I'm uncomfortable with blood in general--not that it's an adequate reason). Eventually I started dating a girl who had a problem with that, so I proposed a compromise: We could have sex during her period if she initiated by jumping me, tying me to the bed, and blindfolding me--the hotness of that scenario is more than enough to overcome my queasiness. Afterward, if there was any blood on me or the condom (and there usually wasn't much), she'd wipe it up and/or throw it away before removing the blindfold.

So, you know, maybe not for everybody, but it's a solution we were both pretty happy with.