Savage Love

Judgment Day

Comments

1
I like the green button idea. Didn't the gay men of Oscar Wilde's time wear a green carnation?
2
Dan, thanks for a good few minutes of laughter. I needed that.

"There's a simple way to solve that problem, LMBLW: Take it in the ass a couple dozen times and present your wife with a lovely boxed set of commemorative DVDs."
3
I'm curious as to whether the bi-married guy shared his sexual past with his wife in that kind of detail before they were married.
4
You could just do the nazi-germany thing and wear a pink triangle.
5
I totally agree with Dan's advice to TOAD. Was the guy joking? Maybe he didn't really care about TOAD? Or maybe just a jerk? My partner is into BDSM. I hadn't really tried anything like that before - but quickly realized that it was awesome and I loved it! But it was something my partner eased me into fairly slowly... and to his benefit! I'm doing things I'd never thought I would be into.

But as open-minded as I've become, I would run from this guy too TOAD.
6
LMBLW should stop rubbing his wife's face in it. If there is one thing wives don't like hearing it's their husband's previous "experiences" - straight or otherwise. At least that is what I have been led to believe.
7
Or, you know, lesbians could learn to cruise! Last evening on a crowded subway car in Hong Kong, I a 40-year-old white guy, picked up a hot 35-year-old(ish) Japanese guy. Neither of us was wearing anything stereotypical, (I was in in business wear, he was wearing jeans and a t-shirt). Yet we managed in a 15 minute subway ride to meet, flirt, exchange numbers and quickly take a face pic of each other without *ever* speaking!

So my sapphic sisters, for f**ksake, learn to flirt and cruise.
8
SMYS could also just develop some gaydar like the rest of us. Fuck, life isn't that difficult. Yeah, I'm lucky, I *like* dykey looking women, the dykier (is that a word?) the better. But fuck, flirt with the girls you like, and make a move. Most queer people in my experience don't really look all that queer- at first glance.

Or you could try out craigslist, there are *tons* of femme women looking only for other femmes on there.

Can't help you on the gay bar thing... could be you're hitting up the wrong scene, if all there are are 'stereotypical' (I guess you probably mean butch? dunno) homos in there... but seriously, I think most lesbians/ bi girls are femme, so I'm not sure how you all are having so much trouble finding each other.
10
I totally loved your lesbian/cat joke. I'm a cat person but not a lesbian. Hmmm, maybe I need to pay more attention when I get questions in that aisle. I may have a bigger dating pool than I thought.
11
lesbo here. Two cats. Love 'em. Why not?
12
The other advantage of your button idea is, of course, that straight guys could stop hitting on femme lesbians who had the button on. As a straight man who has stereotypically poor gaydar, I know I'd appreciate it. I can't imagine it would be anything other than a boon to the unfortunate lesbians who would otherwise be subjected to my questionable charms, either.
13
WTF people. He didn't spring it on her or put a dvd in without warning. He didn't even say he was into that sort of thing in real life. All he did was answer a question honestly. There is alot of porn that I like to watch that I would probably never do in real life.
14
@12

except, you know, all the other straight men who would hit on them bc they were wearing the lesbo-button... or more likely wouldn't notice the button at all, and would care even less.
15
Dan's answer to TOAD was so good I'm practically welling up. Trust your gut. It sounds like some sort of unfair, complicated game to horny teen boys – But if she likes it and won't tell me and I can't tell her how will we ever work it out wahhh my boner! – but it's not. If he couldn't gauge her attitude enough to know how to answer that question, he probably wouldn't have been great at reading her in other areas. And this goes for a lot of relationships. A blowjob, a facial, rough sex: they can all be amazing or degrading (in the bad way, not the good), depending on the guy's attitude. 9 times out of 10 when a guy 'expects' it it's the latter.
16
Sorry MogTM, you may be a gentleman but ask any Lesbian who's run a personal ad...

How about a fertility symbol to indicate they don't use birth control, that might actually discourage a few guys.
17
Confusion may arise if a straight girl wears the lesbian signal just to ward off hits from straight guys.
18
A green button? Why not just be honest with yourself tell the girl she's cute? Might even be the one to change her disposition (if only for one night).
19
A green button? Why not just be honest with yourself tell the girl she's cute? Might even be the one to change her disposition (if only for one night).
20
@15

It seems like like it's an unfair complicated game, and more just that we just can't win for losing.

If I shy away from that revelation early on, and I obfuscate (which, let's face it, is lying), I'm a bastard. Brass tacks, when it comes down to it, the only way to get out of saying "I like rape, dirty whores, and gang-bangs" if I like those things is to be misleading. I can always say "well, I like a lot of different things, and "oh, I like oral sex, I guess", but that's just as much a lie as if I'd said "I don't watch porn". Then, later, if I mention it once we're really close, I've been hiding it, and if she does think it's sick and wrong, she's going to backlash against it (remember, please, the guy from last week whose girlfriend did just that).

So, I can't hide it.

But if I'm open, and honest, even if that honesty is a matter-of-fact "this is what I like" in a way no different from if I said "I like footplay", then I'm some creep. She asked him what type of porn he liked. He answered honestly. Isn't that what we kinksters are supposed to do? No springing fetishes on people, let them know what they're in for? And protect ourselves from getting emotionally involved in a relationship wherein our sexual needs won't be met.

I place the blame with her. If she didn't feel close enough to him to know what really gets him revved up, why the hell did she ask?

Finally, please don't lump oral sex in with facials or rough sex. Oral sex is a basic right in a relationship. I get to expect to get blowjobs, my girlfriend gets to expect that I'll go down on her. Your attitude of "he only gets what she wants to give him" isn't a good basis for a relationship. If I truly care about my girlfriend, I don't need cajoling to go down on her, she doesn't need to be "read" for her to go down on me.

If it's about the guy having to persuade the girl for something as simple and which should be universal as oral sex, that's just wrong.
21
Er, what about all the queer and bisexual girls who aren't lesbians? Doesn't it make way more sense for female-bodied people who are into other female-bodied people to wear buttons?
22
But 20, did he really need to say 'dirty whores'? That's a pretty emotionally charged word, and it might turn him on in the context of the porn, but by saying it out loud to a woman he's expressed romantic interest in, it might make her feel like he judges real women as being whores or otherwise, you see?
If he'd just said 'rape fantasies and gang-bangs' she might have raised an eyebrow, but it would have been easier to define as being in the context of his pornography, with possible shading into a real sex life. But 'dirty whores' just somehow charges right through the mind barriers that most sensible people erect between fantasy, pornography, and real sexual encounters.

Some women may like being called dirty whores when they are turned on, but I would hazard that fewer like the IDEA of being called dirty whores when they are not.
23
@12 Unfortunately directly shining the lesbo signal tends to lead to WAY MORE attention from straight dudes, not less. Which is a big part of the difficulty, really.
24
Just hit on the ladies you are attracted to. You'll strike out a few times with the straight girls, but so what? A very lovely lesbian chatted me up on the subway just this morning. I smiled and said, "You are really hot. But I am currently in a relationship with a being that has a penis. Sorry!" She laughed and everyone was happy.
25
I sometimes wear a rainbow necklace or a Labrys charm on a necklace (a Labrys is a double edge ax, it is the symbol of the Amazon.) the Labrys is more subtle, it tells "those that know" that you are one of us, but usually doesn't make it like a "I'm A LESBIAN" t-shirt.
26
@22

Eh... Again, though, we kind of have to accept that if he had omitted that detail, it could very well have ended up in a situation like the boy from last week. If he likes dirty whore verbal abuse stuff, and doesn't tell her openly upfront, then she'll just be back three months from now writing

"I have this really great boyfriend, and we have a good sex live, we're both GGG, but something came up. He told me he likes verbal abuse, and porn about 'dirty whores' after I saw some of that porn on his computer. I guess I'm just kind of freaking out, because this seems so degrading. But, the bigger problem is that he hid it from me, even though it's something he really likes. Should I be angry that he didn't tell me, and went to porn to get this, even though I'd asked him what he likes?"

Worse yet, what if that kind of fantasy is actually integral to his sexuality? Could you have a healthy sex live (much less a happy one) if you were hiding something you really like?

There are two possibilities. Either this is a BFD to him, and he needs a girlfriend to understand and accept it, or it's so inconsequential to him that he doesn't mind spilling his guts early on. If it's a BFD, he has every right to say 'this is who I am, take it or leave it'. If it's not a BFD, then the girl is overreacting.

We don't get to pick our kinks, but we do get to state upfront "this is what I like, this is what I need. If you can't do that, we won't work as sexual partners"
27
@TOAD, I love what Dan said about trusting your gut, you really can't go wrong with that.

And for the kinksters out there, it's the WAY you say it! Blurting out 'dirty whores' is definitely poor form, but lead into it gently. Something like, "well...(a little bashfulness here helps)...some of the things I watch on porn are pretty rough. I guess I like the fantasy of it, you know? (then when pressed - and only when pressed - to reveal more - you will be, don't worry) Well, sometimes I watch gang-bang type stuff, not that I'd ever do it in real life without a consenting partner mind you, but I kinda get off on the power fantasy stuff, at least when I'm in my room alone jacking off!...etc." That way you're being honest and upfront (I really don't think you can go too wrong with that either - people like honesty and it's the ONLY basis for a good relationship - but they may not like your kink, so accept rejection gracefully) but like any respectable kinkster you're qualifying it, acknowledging it's an out there kink, putting reasonable conditions on it, making sure it's comes across that it's not just the kink you want from this partner but that in the right context of a trusting relationship it will be something that you'll bring up from time to time and hope to share with your partner.
28
here's what you do, all you men who are wondering how to express to your girlfriend that he likes socially unacceptable porn.

Girl: So what kind of porn do you like?
acceptable answers:
1. Guy: What kind of porn do YOU like?
2. Guy: Idunno, lets get together and compare collections sometime.
8. Guy: Well my favourite title is 'Lesbian Spank Inferno'
3. Guy: Oh you know, whips, chains, electrified butt plugs *wink*
4. Guy: Hahaha, ask me again in a month.
5. Guy: I'll tell you when you're older *wink*
6. Guy: If I told you, I'd have to kill you!! *wink*
7. Guy: (horrified look) But I cannot break the sacred coooode! The only way you can find out is snooping through my CDs the morning after. Anything else is a flagrant breach of the Bro Code.
9. Guy: Well, to be honest, I think it's really cool when a cool smart girl, lets go of her hang-ups, and just gets into a role playing situation.

Then CHANGE THE EFFING TOPIC.

downplay without misrepresenting, like Dan said, is Key.
29
Perfect advice all around, Dan!

I couldn't agree more about people needing to learn to trust their gut instincts. It drives me crazy when I hear a girl say something akin to, "He creeps me out every time I see him, but I feel so rude if I try to walk away. I'm trying to give him the benefit of the doubt." I always look the person straight in the eyes and say: No. Trust your instincts. If you don't feel right, if you feel creeped out by someone, trust that. Hurting his feelings is a lot easier than the possible negative outcomes of making a creep think you enjoy seeing him.

And you were spot-on about why she felt uneasy about that guy! Disclosing very specific personal info when you barely know someone is rarely a good sign. That's not the kind of thing you need/want to know when you're just getting to know someone.

And I think the green button for lesbians is genius! To make it catch on faster, how about pinning right next to a rainbow button at first? As in, "Yep, I'm gay! And, yep, you have the green light to hit on me!" Just a thought.
30
"I am apprehensive about seeing him again." Well then, for the love of FSM, don't see him again!

This is not an issue of how to tell someone about unusual porn preferences ... this is an issue of trusting yourself and respecting your own emotional reactions. If you don't want to see him again, DON'T SEE HIM AGAIN. Period. You don't owe him anything. In particular, you don't owe him a second date "to give him a chance," not even in an alcohol-free, well-lit, heavily-traveled public place.

Who knows or cares why this particular guy makes you feel uncomfortable? He just does, so clearly he's not the guy for you.

Who cares whether or not he's "really" a creep, or "why you're judging him"? He gives you the heebie-jeebies and you don't want to see him again, so DON'T.

Go find someone else to date. There are plenty of boys out there who won't creep you out and who will be thrilled that you like rough sex.

I strongly recommend the book The Gift of Fear- grab a copy, it's a quick and informative read. You need to learn how to respect yourself well enough to trust your instincts.
31
@27:

Yes, exactly! Someone gets it! It's not even that they just met. It's that the way he said it made it sound like he liked degradation in real life, not just in a consensual fantasy. There's a big difference between saying "I like it when girls get called names sometimes" and "I like watching dirty whores"... the way he said it, he was actually being degrading and insulting OUTSIDE of a consensual fantasy.

It was pretty clear to me that the guy in question was not a kinkster who's into consensual, respectful BDSM: he probably never heard of it. He was just another asshole who doesn't care about respect.
32
What happened to EYE CONTACT! You young bloods are so lucky, you can hit on just about anybody and not get a sock in the eye (unless you live in bohunk).
Take advantage and take your chances. I could never understand lesbians who put no bbb's in their personal ads (Big, butch, and burley) and don't feel a bit sorry for them when they get dumped for a dude. Bi-sexuals are not worth the hassle.
Just an opinion.
33
To the first letter writer: Trust your gut, move on & don't be so hard on yourself.

LMBLW: Your wife is being a control freak and homophobic. Which one of you gets to define your sexual identity? But maybe don't go into the delicious details of your past in front of her. She obviously can't handle it. Or she really likes it and that scares her, OR she's worried you'll 'go back' to men???

SMYS: Us lesbians already have plenty of subtle signs and symbols to broadcast to each other. The labrys has already been mentioned, the rainbow, the female symbol, goddess images, the triangle, equal sign... Those "What are YOU doing HERE?" looks at the bar in what I assume is a small town are a defense mechanism. Keep going to the bar to prove you're not just slumming and ideally they'll get used to seeing you and relax... Or maybe meet lesbians in -other- venues (social causes are a biggie). Some of us do not do the bars. Good luck! (P.S: My cats are awesome!)
34
@26

Oh, please. She said she's a kinky girl. She's not turned off by his kinks. She's turned off by his vibe; by the way he is presenting this stuff in too-charged language too early (and in the wrong context). I'm a kinky girl, too, and I, too, would have run away from that guy.

Can you really not see the difference between saying "I like watching double penetration sometimes" and "I really like it when a dirty whore takes it up both her slutty holes at once, oh yeah!"? The first is a decent way to answer a question posed by a possible romantic interest you haven't had sex with and don't know very well, because it uses neutral language. The second is not.

I mean, do you tell your co-workers all about your irritable bowel syndrome when they casually ask how your day is going? Of course not, but you might if, say, your wife asks. Same question, different responses, because of the different level of intimacy. Telling things that are too intimate for a given situation is CREEPY. Using dirty-talk language in a non-sexual situation with a girl you don't know well definitely qualifies as "too intimate." Thus, creepy.

Dollars to doughnuts, if he'd said "I really like to watch scenes with unequal power dynamics/power play/submission" she'd still be around.
35
Dan, that was some really great advice to TOAD!
The "trust your gut" part is exactly right, and you even avoided the standard victim blaming follow up (as in "trust your gut, and if you don't it'll be your own fault when you get raped").

I agree with @27 and @34 - the choice of the words "dirty whores" definitely raises some red flags. I've known plenty of safe, responsible BDSMers and NONE of them would blurt out something like that so early in a relationship, and certainly not in that way.

This guy blew it, and TOAD is well rid of him.
36
@31
I agree that this guy has never been involved in kinkster relationship, or else he'd have better manners. I disagree, though, that his language, per se, is the problem. I actually thought about it while I was writing my first comment; thought about how distasteful it was that he was talking about the porn actresses as if he couldn't distinguish them from the characters they portrayed, but I decided that wasn't it, exactly.

If a partner that I already knew, trusted, and was having sex with said
"hey, I just downloaded some new stuff from kink.com...wanna watch some dirty sluts get what they deserve?" I would say "ooh! ok!" because I would already know, based on previously gleaned knowledge and experience (ie, a high level of intimacy) that he doesn't think that women are sluts, and that he would never call a women out on the street a slut, that he would never call me a slut in anger, and that he's well aware of the difference between a porn actress and her character.

The problem, as I see it, is that TOAD doesn't know this guy well enough to know these things; they don't have a degree of intimacy that allows for that kind of language. He's coming off as a giant creep precisely because his language is too intimate for how long they've actually known each other.

Which is not to say he's NOT a giant creep who can't tell fantasy from reality; just that the use of "sexist language" alone doesn't automatically make a guy a giant creep-- it all depends on context.
37
@30
thank you.

Dan, you don't have to qualify otherwise perfect advice with the idea that she should go out with him again FOR ANY REASON. Her question was, 'Was my reaction legit?' and the correct answer to that question when it's clear she trusted her gut is, 'Yes. Always!'
38
@27, you can lead into it gently, but the message is equal. Why not just be like f you and get it out?
39
@34.

She's a very kinky girl? The kind you don't take home to mother?

What we're seeing is her side of things, which is only half of the equation. Unless she prefaced her statement with "and, you know, I really like kinky things, too", his natural assumption was probably "well, she may not be into kinky stuff". If that's what he was thinking, I can see how a considerate kinkster would come back and (essentially) lay it all out there. Again, if honesty is part of a good relationship, he answered the question directly and honestly. When did that turn into a bad thing?

The neutrality of the language only exists because we deem it to have. We, here, are more comfortable with double-penetration qua double-penetration. But if what he truly enjoys about it is the degradation aspect of it, then he's just being upfront about what he likes when she *asked him what porn he likes*.

He didn't volunteer it. He honestly answered a question. That's being upfront and honorable. Why are we demonizing some guy who's doing what we should demand everyone do?

And this isn't the same as someone asking about my day, and getting gross details. She asked about the porn he watches. He told her about the porn he watches. As Dan has written before, if you reject the honest foot-fetishist (or, in this case, degradation-fetishist) you're going to end up with the dishonest necrophiliac. I think we're glossing over the fact that she asked him what he liked. And then he can't win. If he tells the truth, she rejects him. If he lies (and saying "I sometimes watch double penetration" when really I like "seeing whores get their asses pounded like the sluts they are" is a lie), it eventually bites him on the ass.

There's also a vast difference between "unequal power dynamics/power play/submission" and the type of degradation/humiliation/she's-a-nasty-slut play that he enjoys. You're asking him to lie about his interests. That's fine, but seems to go against what we've been telling ourselves is important.

Let me give another example. If I really like footplay in the sense of "I want to cum on my girlfriend's feet and watch her lick it up", no one would accept saying "oh, I like rubbing your feet" as a synonym. If I said the latter, and eventually indicated my real interest in the former, my girlfriend might dump my ass.

Why should he have to invest emotional energy in a relationship without first ascertaining whether it would be sexually appealing?

@27

That's not real honesty, though. If what I actually enjoy is a dirty whore being degraded, I don't just like "kinda rough" stuff. The fantasy isn't just the rough sex, it's the degradation, the girl being treated like a slut. We keep coming back to the fact that Dan has said the guy should have lied.

And that's fine, but let's call a spade a spade. Let's not pretend that there's a way to downplay either the extent or importance of a kink without misrepresenting it. If I can't live without ageplay, I should be upfront with prospective girlfriends (albeit I'd prefer later in a relationship, but bear in mind that *she fucking asked him*) about what I would eventually likely demand of them.

@28

So... Lie.

Awesome.

Maybe I'm confused, but all of your "acceptable" ways are simply various shades of lie, damned lie, and statistic.

You're either evading the question (that's omission, which is a lie, no matter what the Catholics say), as in answers 1, 2, 4, 5, and 7

Or you're simply stating something which is untrue. Blatantly, directly, and unequivocally untrue. As in answers 3, 6, 8, and 9. You wouldn't have to kill her, his favorite title wasn't what you stated, he's not into plugs, electricity, and other "acceptably deviant" kinks, and he's not just into a "cool girl roleplaying". Those are lies. Simple, and direct, lies.

Why would you lie to a prospective girlfriend?

And, please, before someone comes back with "clearly you're inexperienced, you don't know what it is to really be in a D/S relationship", I'll admit you're right. I've only ever been in a relationship, but if my girlfriend asked (as most of them have) what kind of things I like in porn and sex, you're damned right that I wouldn't prevaricate or evade, or omit. If she's asked a question, she gets an honest answer.

The fact that TOAD is blanching at having been given the kind of forthright and honest answer that most people would jump at from a partner speaks volumes about her, not him.

@36

Hello, again.

Perhaps I've simply never been in a situation where a girl ever thought I would be the type to use slut or whore or bitch outside of either teasing or roleplay, but your criticism doesn't make much sense to me.

Remember, as with everything I've said, that she asked him a direct question. She didn't ask 'what kind of porn do you like that I might like, too?' or 'do you have any porn recommendations?' She asked him straight up what he liked.

But, even ignoring that, the fact that you would assume he's unable to distinguish from fantasy and reality is far more of a logical leap than I'm willing to make. If I talked about really liking a character in a book, would you suspect that I thought the book was real? Or would you accept that "I really like what Harry did in the middle of the latest Dresden Files book" is shorthand for "I really like what the author, Jim Butcher, portrayed the fictional character of Harry Dresden as doing within the entirely made-up world of the Dresden Files"?

If a girl says she likes vampire romance, does that mean she really wants a vampire to suck her blood? Or does that mean she likes a genre of fantasy?

But, even beyond that, the language thing is very, very, irrelevant in my mind. You (and TOAD) are assuming that if a guy likes seeing "whores treated like they deserve", he might think all women are whores, or be willing to call other women whores, or call you one in anger, or (as previously rebutted) can't separate fantasy from reality.

Instead, what I hear is "I like the fantasy of..."

Let me give a personal example. One of my girlfriends liked rape fantasies. She didn't explain it as "I really like the idea of, in a completely consensual and safe setting, being violated in previously-agreed-upon ways, and with the constant knowledge that I could stop the action if it got dangerous or really scary". She said she liked rape fantasies. Good god, are we really so suspicious and paranoid that simply because someone doesn't go into the permutations of "I know it's fantasy", they must live their fantasies every day?

One of my flings liked to be verbally abused in sex. Did I ever for one second think she thought she really was a worthless slut? No. Even though she only ever said "I like to be called names" when the subject of our kinks came up. It's just about being reasonable.

TOAD has every right to say "nope, not for me". But this guy did nothing wrong except hope that someone who asked him "what porn do you like" could actually accept an honest answer.
40
22 hit the nail EXACTLY on the head. As a single straight girl who's NOT particularly interested in rape fantasies or gangbangs, I would still not have a problem with dating a guy who was, or indulging my bf in roleplay of those kinks. I even like being called a dirty whore during sex. But a guy, especially one I'd just started dating, saying he likes videos of 'dirty whores' would pretty much guarantee I'd dump him quickly. Watching 'videos of dirty whores' makes it sound like the guy either has no respect for women and actually believes the actresses in the porno ARE dirty whores, or sometimes blurs the line between fantasy and reality, which is NOT a desirable quality in someone into scenarios that portray considerable force, degradation play, and power imbalances. Run, TOAD, run.
41
Hey Dan-
pink triangles for male homosexuals, black triangles for female homosexuals. Oh wait, isn't that what the Nazis did?
42
pink triangles for homosexual men, black triangles for homosexual women. Hey, at least that's what the nazi's thought was a decent system. Even as a straight, white male, Dan, please tell us all you were being sarcastic
43
I am really TIRED of lipstick lezzies going, "OH NOES, those nasty butchy-butches keep giving me sideways looks when I hit the girlie bars!!1!"

Firstly, ignore the stupid bitches who do that. They're obviously incredibly juvenile/insecure not to know by now that dykes come in all configurations.

Secondly, consider the fact that you're kindly giving dykes-who-like-femmy-chicks like me some nice eye-candy when you hit the scene.

Thirdly, if someone catches your eye, then INITIATE A CONVERSATION. Just because a few idiots are giving you a sideways look - if it's -all- the bar, then go elsewhere - doesn't mean plenty of others won't be interested in you if you show you're interested in them.
44
@36 - personally, I think the only time that anyone should engage in sexist language is behind the bedroom door, if and when BOTH participants have expressed their desire to use that kind of language in THAT context.

I can't see how, anywhere outside a bdsm dungeon and often not even then, that a first date could be considered in any way a suitable context.
45
@39 Dude, If i ask what kinda porn a guy likes on getting-to-know-them kinda date, and his answer is "Dirty whores, rape fantasies and gang-bangs" I'm never going out with the creepy twit again. Maybe for you the language doesn't suggest someone whose emotionally or mentally unbalanced, but for me it does. Tact goes a long way, and I'm going to go with the guy who says he's into power play, role-play, rough sex, etc over the guy who says dirty whores.
I think it's more telling that you want to blame TOAD and project her crying "But he wasn't honest!!!!" later if the guy in question actually had any sort of common sense. There are plenty of non-creepy ways of saying he's into what he's into without saying dirty whores and setting off every female's douchebag-defense-system, most of which were mentioned but apparently weren't honest enough for you. Anyone who's okay or GGG and hears a partner express an interest in power dynamics or role-play probably isn't going to balk when they suggest a rape fantasy, and if they did the kinkster is better off without them.
46
I am SO getting a green button =D glad I've got a button-making kit around here somewhere. Thanks Dan! I really hope that catches on, cause it's an awesome idea.
47
dirty whores = experienced business women

LOL! I'm embarrassed to admit that it took me a minute to get that.
48
There already is a secret sign: the labyris.

http://www.milk-and-honey.com/images/jew…

You can get tons of jewelry (pendants, rings, earrings) with this symbol. It's fallen out of fashion, but I think we should bring it back.
49
Someone needs to develop the Betan earring system, that way no-one would be confused.
50
@LMBLW What do you mean "tales of my man-on-man experiences come up"?
I think most people would readily understand why your wife would be uncomfortable if tales of your sex life with other women were "coming up" in social situations,
So why so different with men?

About Toad,
I am surprised that nobody has addressed putting of answering. If he had said he is into violence and degradation fantasy and declined to go into detail, she may have asked for specifics, but even then I think his answers, tactfully put, would have been more welcome. @ 39, some of these less harsh suggestions about ways to say it may be inaccurate to varying degrees, but it doesn't mean there aren't more accurate, less offensive ways to describe it. For example "degradation fantasies" seems like it accurately encompasses specifics like the dirty whore fantasy. Hell, even if he had said "dirty whore fantasies" it would have been better. We can't just assume he means fantasy in the same way we can assume that people who like vampires do because unlike vampires, sexist douchebags exist-they're everywhere!
51
I'm surprised Dan didn't point out to LMBLW, as he has several times in his column, that many gay men (including myself) simply do not take it up the ass, and there are plenty of other ways he could be having sex with men. Of course it gets rather confusing when you realize how many men who call themselves str8 crave cock up their asses, proof of which you can find on the craigslist personals at any given moment.

The real question here is, if this woman has a problem w/her husband being attracted to men, why is she married to him? Je ne le get pas.
52
Am I the only one who notices that the question is what kind of *porn* the guy was into, not what he was into doing himself?

There could be a big gulf between what he likes to watch and what he wants in real life.

As for Mr. Savage's advice: fail. The guy was asked. He disclosed. Absent some other indication of creepiness--and disclosure of fairly normal porn preferences is not creepy on its own--this whole "alarm bells" stuff is pretty, well, sex negative.

BTW, I love how 43 says this in 44: " I think the only time that anyone should engage in sexist language is behind the bedroom door, if and when BOTH participants have expressed their desire to use that kind of language in THAT context." But in the immediately prior 43 post she engages in some ugly talk about "bitches"

0_o
53
lol @ 1st letter... I'm totally that guy... not that I share those kinks, I'm more of a submissive, but I am certainly the guy who brings up freaky-deaky sex stuff on dates 1 & 2. I always thought it was me being quirky and open, but know I'm starting to see how a frank disclosure of corpophagia somewhere between ordering drinks and the arrival on the entree might creep someone out ;)
54
Good advice to TOAD, but I have to say, if you aren't ready to hear what kind of porn someone is into, DON'T ASK WHAT KIND OF PORN HE'S INTO. This really puts the burden on this guy to "protect" TOAD from the question she asked. Which I (a woman) would find kind of patronizing, to be honest. How does he know whether she really wants to know or isn't ready to hear it? Definitely, if you feel creeped out, then get out of the situation, but she'd be more likely to develop a good relationship with potential partners if she took responsibility for questions that SHE asks.
55
Regarding the advice for TOAD: I completely agree with her trusting her gut. She's someone who IS GGG, who has enjoyed experiences just like the guy said he liked in porn--and yet what he said creeped her out. Until well into my thirties, I tried to rationalize away the "vibes" I was getting from people. I finally realized that the vibes were correct, and while I can't explain them logically, they are the result of picking up on subtle information and they should be trusted.

While reading the column, I was, however, aware that someone who is not already GGG, not comfortable with new sexual things, will probably have a reaction that feels very similar to the "bad vibe" feeling when they are first told about a partner's mild kinks or fantasies. I don't know what to suggest for that, I just see it happening. Definitely, though, if you're a sophisticated, Savage-Love reading, GGG person and you get creeped out, you'd better trust that reaction.
56
Can I just say that there's a world of difference between real people who practice power trips/BDSM/bondage and a dude who reveals that he watches so much gonzo porn that he stupidly reveals that he doesn't know the difference between the the two?

He wasn't describing "kink." He was describing a niche of pornography--ya know the stuff where the guy fucks a girl's throat until she vomits and where the men treat the women like they're not human, not even present in the sex itself?

To me, kink is edgy--it requires ongoing communication, carefulness, seeing where a person's lines are and experimenting with going beyond them: together. It does not involve boys who are so afraid of women or resentful of them that they psychologically split them into virgins or whores. An experienced kinkster would know better than to be so blunt and contemptuous outside an actual scene and before any sexual contact with a potential new partner. He was not given permission to treat her that way--he revealed that he holds her, by the way he spoke to her, in contempt. His poor choice of words and lack of restraint implied a thoughtless about his own desires--that he hasn't thought about how being turned on by power plays will play out in real sexual relationships with real women.

I'm one of the kinkiest straight gals you'll ever meet, and I would have run from this guy too. The red flags here are about unexplored misogyny, immaturity and social cluelessness. Please don't dignify it by calling it kink.

57
@51: Same thoughts -- except for where she has a problem with him being attracted to men.

I don't think that's the problem; it's his sharing. Wives who don't like their husbands flirting with women aren't described as having problems with them being attracted to women ... it's to OTHER women. I don't get her ridiculous "buttsex" hang-up at all, but I get why she's a little discomfited about him regaling possibly sexually interested parties with his adventures.

THAT SAID, his letter doesn't say how explicit his stories are. It's totally possible that he's just talking about men he used to date ... but that can still be a no-no with some SOs. Depends.

Sounds like they need to talk about this more, and get some communication on social conversation boundaries (topics, audiences, etc.) that they can both agree on. Can he share stories with their straight friends? Female friends? What kinds of stories? Etc. I think they can strike a balance between his desire to have friendly, interesting adult conversations and her desire to be comfortable.

But it's no question she's being a dick for making up a totally arbitrary definition of his sexuality.

And bravo on TOAD, Dan. Good answer, covers all the bases.
58
I was really glad to read Dan's response to TOAD. I'm "out there" in the dating thing (online largely), as a single adult woman, and am constantly given shit by men who want to get into the kinky sex discussion RIGHT away -- sometimes even before the first date. When I gently brush it off, I'm called a prude (if they had ANY idea...) and hollered at about being closed-minded and "if we're going to get together, even eventually, THIS STUFF IS IMPORTANT" and all this other pushy nonsense. Obviously, I take all of this as a clear sign that the guy I'm currently talking to is not right for me (since I'm not interested in dating assholes). Sadly (for them and for me), I AM a rather kinky, exploratory woman, and if these creepoids had any idea how to approach a non-totally-damaged woman, they'd be amazed at what they could actually have.

Now, I understand she asked HIM, but the general attitude/interplay is what I'm talking about. I'm relieved to read Dan say that it's not always a great thing to push that conversation too early, and fellas, it IS NOT an indication that the woman across from you is some sort of leg-clamping fundamentalist because she doesn't want to tell you her dirtiest stories before appetizers.

I'm starting to think I should reference this link in all of my future online profiles. The people in the responses here who agree with me have given me some hope -- YOU are the people I'm hoping to meet! Thank you!
59
For TOAD, in my opinion, anyone (male or female) who uses crass talk with someone they don't know well is either a) oblivious / lacking in basic social skills, b) immature enough to think that it makes them look powerful and confident, or c) an abusive type who enjoys making other people feel uncomfortable.

I understand and agree that people should be accurate and honest, but generally you take it slow with someone you're getting to know. The way this guy answered the questions was the equivalent of shoving his tongue roughly down her throat during their first kiss. Even if you both like it, it's generally something you want to work up to.

At best, this guy is oblivious or immature. At worst, he's a creep and abuser.
60
39: the thing is, there are ways to say essentially the same thing as TOAD's date while, you know, acknowledging that it's maybe a bit Out There. Like, say, "I'm into some kind of rough stuff" or the like.

Yes, she did ask the question, but... it's kind of like the difference between responding to "how are you doing?" with "I'm having some gastrointestinal issues" and responding with "I've got a massive case of the squirts." Both cases let someone (of getting-to-know-you levels) know that you might be running off to the john unexpectedly, but one is vague and polite, while the other is pretty TMI. Someone on an early date asking "what kind of porn do you like" is trying to gauge general interest and intensity, not asking for a guided tour of her date's psyche.
61
Another good part about the TOAD letter: if the guy is not a creep and just inexperienced, maybe it will sink in that he was a bit too blunt, and he'll learn how to negotiate better. If he IS a creep, he'll just blame her in some misogynistic fashion, but her leaving/trusting her gut is the perfect reaction. He crossed the line.

As for the lesbian signal thing: many bi and some femme women I know complain about this, and I wonder sometimes if we men are just a little more used to reaction because of social "norms" and in generally being more aggressive, thus more willing to just flirt (or more) with someone.

I say to them to just get out there and try, and if necessary toughen up a little. If someone is not interested, then so be it and at least you won't go home wondering "what if". Don't take it too personally, and just have fun and be respectful and see what happens.
62
Oh, also...

There is a *world* of difference in intent and nuance between the statements "I like porn where the women are treated like dirty whores" and "I like watching dirty whores get f***ed", even though they convey the same basic information.
63
I'm androgynous/femme leaning to femme. Long hair, makeup, purse and all, I haven't had much trouble hitting on women or getting responses when I did.

Wear some rings (I thought I read in my Gay Agenda that thumb rings already signaled "queer"), smile at women, and don't wait for women to hit on you. I think that female socialization to wait for someone else to make the first move is the culprit, not that the "non-steretypical" women are too femme.

And if a woman says no thanks, she's straight, then smile and go on to the next cute woman.

64
@39

So, you see nothing wrong with his language. Personally, I think he could have been a touch more suave, but that's actually not the point. The letter, and Dan's response, is less about what the guy should have done and more about TOAD's response. When a guy that you're attracted to starts talking about porn and fantasies that turn you on but still manages to creep you the fuck out to the degree that you only want to get the hell out of there, it's a problem. There was something about the conversation that set off an alarm, and it was probably more than just the words he used. That kind of feeling--the feeling of that you might be in a dangerous or at least deeply unpleasant sexual situation--is unique and once you've experienced it you don't ever mistake it for something else. Obviously TOAD felt her response was irrational, since they were talking about kinks she enjoys, so she wrote to Dan. And Dan confirmed what everyone should remember: when you get that feeling, when someone creeps you out even though the situation is relatively innocuous, you get the hell out. And no, I'm not suggesting that the dude was some kind of crazy rapist, just that those feelings exist for a reason, and continuing a sexual relationship with the guy would probably be less than successful.
65
@39, if a phrase such as "I like name calling" would be considered a "lie" to you... than in fact the guy is NOT into a consensual kink, but a misogynistic delusion that he is set up as an authority to wantonly label women as whores or not whores, regardless of their consent or interest in the scene.

If a guy is saying that it's a lie to consider his interest in porn with phrases such as "dirty whore" as name calling, degradation, or some other category phrase, than he's not a kinkster and not interested in consent, but just an outright misogynist.
66
@25 - Wearing a labrys would also garner the attention of any Minoans in the room...sweet!
67
@41
Yeah, that was my point--that he didn't have the kind of intimacy with her that would allow for using that kind of language. That his language was creepy because they didn't know each other intimately enough for it to be acceptable. I was mostly responding to an earlier post that said his language ITSELF was the problem (implying that any man who says "dirty whore" must think women are all dirty whores), whereas I think it was his language IN THE WRONG CONTEXT that was the problem. In the right context (like my example) that kind of language would be no problem for a kinky girl--and not just in the bedroom-- in whatever situations that language has been condoned. What if, in priate, a kinky guy called his girlfriend "Slut" as an endearment, because she likes it?
"Hey, Slut?"
"Yes, Honey?"
"Did I remember to tell you that I used up the last of the toilet paper?"

That example has noting to do with the bedroom, but it has everything to do with both partners agreeing, and everything to do with a correct level of intimacy. The boy TOAD was interested in comes off as a giant creep (and Seldon is coming off as either incredibly obtuse or incredibly stubborn) because he is using charged language without the context that would give it the ok. It's like using the word "faggot" to a gay guy you just met, versus using it to a gay friend with whom you have already built up a wealth of past understanding, which might include the knowledge of "we're using faggot the way South Park used it" or might include the knowledge "He likes the word faggot because he considers it empowering to take it back" or any number of other things. It's not the word "faggot" that makes or breaks you; it's the context surrounding the word.

But we agree that the guy TOAD was talking about is totally creepy.
68
@51 and 57
I imagine that her refusal to believe he's really bisexual is how she has manage dot stay with him when his sexual attraciotn to men does bother her.

And while I agree that sharing stories of past sexual experiences int he presence of your current significant other is tactless at best (unless you know they'r ecool with it), the writer indicated that she has a porblem when he identifies a celebrity male as someone he finds attractive.

THere are two ways of interpreting this: If she ahs the same problem when he's taling about female celebrities, she's crazy-insecure and unreasonably jealous. If it's only for men, then she has serious issues with his bisexuality, which sucks, and does kind of make her an ass - few things bug me more than the people in my life who insist on pretending I'm straight.
69
I can totally relate to Show Me. Very very rarely do people, men or women, assume that I'm gay. In my current part-time gig as a bartender, it means I can work both sides of the ropes and make double cash buy flirting with whoever wanders up to my bar. But at the end of the day, I go home to my so-gay-she-has-a-rainbow-aura girlfriend and we curl up in our non-cat home.

Back in the single days, I was pretty lucky that a smile and some intentional eye contact payed off for me. And generally speaking, I didn't run into a lot of women who were offended by the attention. Don't be creepy, smile genuinely, and hold the eye contact for just a second longer than necessary. You'll do just fine.
70
I can totally relate to Show Me. Very very rarely do people, men or women, assume that I'm gay. In my current part-time gig as a bartender, it means I can work both sides of the ropes and make double cash buy flirting with whoever wanders up to my bar. But at the end of the day, I go home to my so-gay-she-has-a-rainbow-aura girlfriend and we curl up in our non-cat home.

Back in the single days, I was pretty lucky that a smile and some intentional eye contact payed off for me. And generally speaking, I didn't run into a lot of women who were offended by the attention. Don't be creepy, smile genuinely, and hold the eye contact for just a second longer than necessary. You'll do just fine.
71
I am a woman who enjoys some very female-degrading varieties of porn (think German piss gangbang with very little seeming regard for the women involved) and I would have hoped that if I had found myself in the same situation as the LW I would have probed a bit deeper. It's very possible that the combination of alcohol and excitement at having a girl want to hear about what really gets him off led him to phrase it in a way that sounds creepy or off-putting out of context. Some incredibly GGG people find degradation and charged, sexist language too much of a minefield and would rather not engage in it, which is fine. Better she should know now than later what this guy is into, and better that he find out sooner rather than later that this otherwise kink-friendly girl blanches at the use of the term "dirty whore."

He could certainly be a creep with sexism issues, but I would have continued the conversation by asking him how he came to acknowledge this about himself, if he considers this a big aspect of his sexuality, and/or something that he really wants to explore in real life. Not everyone aspires to actually do what they jerk off to, and that would be a whole new conversation.
72
I am a woman who enjoys some very female-degrading varieties of porn (think German piss gangbang with very little seeming regard for the women involved) and I would have hoped that if I had found myself in the same situation as the LW I would have probed a bit deeper. It's very possible that the combination of alcohol and excitement at having a girl want to hear about what really gets him off led him to phrase it in a way that sounds creepy or off-putting out of context. Some incredibly GGG people find degradation and charged, sexist language too much of a minefield and would rather not engage in it, which is fine. Better she should know now than later what this guy is into, and better that he find out sooner rather than later that this otherwise kink-friendly girl blanches at the use of the term "dirty whore."

He could certainly be a creep with sexism issues, but I would have continued the conversation by asking him how he came to acknowledge this about himself, if he considers this a big aspect of his sexuality, and/or something that he really wants to explore in real life. Not everyone aspires to actually do what they jerk off to, but that might be the beginning of a whole new conversation.
73
It has been mostly guys that I've seen deal with the aftermath of failing to heed their gut and eagerly followed their dicks into what became hospital, change of work status, bail and/or lawyer scenes. Without diminishing the dangers to women, men should remember they have more than one instinct worth heeding.

That said, I just really wanted to point out that TOAD's apprehension isn't something she did to that guy. Unless if he actually is a bad guy, in which case the proper sending and receiving of "vibes" happened, this was just an incompatibility issue, and it is just as well things didn't progress. No ones fault. No big deal.
74
@51, 57 & 68 - I agree with your confusion as to why Dan played into the stereotype that gay sex = butt sex. I've been married to a bi guy for six years, and knew he was bi from the day we met. He's totally not into butt sex at all, but loves to play with cocks, and suck them. I don't feel threatened because he also loves my pussy. A dude can't compete with that - nor can I compete with a nice cock - even with a strap-on.
75
TOAD:

I think the lesson here is... don't ask a drunk man what type of porn he likes to watch. Drunk or sober, I will tell you that I like to watch a lot of lesbian porn. As a straight male, I highly doubt this makes me a closeted lesbian, I just like to watch 2 or more women enjoying each other. Now, some overzealous woman might assume that I only want to watch 2 women having intercourse, or only have sex with 2 or more women at once and never want to talk with me again. While I would enjoy being with 2 or more women at once, that is not the only sexual experiences I am interested in. As a matter of fact, that is far from the normal sexual activity I pursue. However, she did not ask what he likes for sex, she asked him what porn he likes, and judging from his porn tastes, he probably likes to be in a position of power, that is all. He may not have ever tried any of those things before, but she has pre-judged him now, and it is probably too late to salvage the relationship. However, that being said, I have to agree with Dan, and you should always trust your gut.

So, the lesson is....don't share your porn and sex tastes with women you don't know really well, and when you do, try to make it sound a little more tasteful.
76
Seldon2639 - you are right to suggest that in a rational society, where everyone recognizes the absolute sovereignty of the individual, language should be honest and straightforward. Because there is, in fact, a big difference between "naughty sluts" and "dirty whores", and one should be able to specify one's preferences without fear of reprisal, simply because you used the wrong buzzword.
Here we have a very young woman, who admits that she is into power play and BDSM and name calling, but is uncomfortable with someone else being so frank about his own fetish for same. To me, this indicates that, although she knows what she likes, she is not entirely comfortable with it yet herself. And her gut told her - something about this guy is wrong, I'm outta here.
Very well, perhaps she should be as honest with him as he was with her, and tell him that his language put her off.
It's important to remember that even though semantics *should* be a non-issue, the fact is that many people have psychological bugs about certain words. I know one girl who loves being called a slut but wants to shrivel up and die when someone calls her a whore. TOAD shouldn't be reviled simply because she has a bad feeling or isn't quite comfortable with that level of openness yet. Yes, she shouldn't have asked about his porn if she wasn't sure she'd like the answer. But she's very young. Cut her some slack.
77
agree entirely with answer to LMBLW and would like to add this: imagine a 100% straight husband regaling his straight pals with stories of all his experiences with other women. how do you think his wife would react to that? could be less about the bisexuality and more about the fact that that is obnoxious as hell.
78
Seldon2639,

Come on, now. You're being obtuse on purpose. I think you see the difference very well but now you're just stubbornly hanging on to your original opinion. If not, let's break it down, shall we?

You said:
"his natural assumption was probably "well, she may not be into kinky stuff". If that's what he was thinking, I can see how a considerate kinkster would come back and (essentially) lay it all out there."

You have now heard from several kinky gals. Gals who date kinky men. They have all said they would not stick around in this situation. So you may assume that "considerate kinksters", or at least successful ones, don't "lay it all out there" using BDSM scene language in a non-BDSM context. "Considerate kinksters" know that talking about "dirty whores" to a girl you don't know well is creepy. You can either admit that charged language is acceptable in some contexts and not in others, or you can stay stuck in your totally made up catch-22 of "if I tell she'll run away, if I don't she'll be mad later." It's your choice.

You said "The neutrality of the language only exists because we deem it to have."

...I assume you mean "we deem that it exists."
Yes, that's true...and?

You said: "(and saying "I sometimes watch double penetration" when really I like "seeing whores get their asses pounded like the sluts they are" is a lie)"

No, it's not. It's exactly the same porn, just with acceptable, grown up language attached to it, although what you are describing could be called "anal sex" or "anal play", since you don't specifically mention double penetration. It's this sentence more than any other that makes me think you're deliberately choosing to pretend you don't see the difference.

When talking to your grandmother (or boss, or police officer) you might say "that woman is manipulative and controlling and I believe she might be bi-polar", instead of "that bitch is bat-shit crazy!" This is because we all know, and you know it too, that different language is acceptable in different situations and contexts. You don't use potty-mouth dirty-talk to a girl you just met. (Not if you don't want to be an asshole, anyway.) It's not hard. You understand it. You're just pretending not to.

You said "if my GIRLFRIEND asked... what kind of things I like in porn and sex,...I wouldn't prevaricate or evade, or omit."
and
"The fact that TOAD is blanching at...[an] honest answer that most people would jump at FROM A PARTNER speaks volumes about her, not him."

(The emphasis in both cases is mine.) Yes, dear, if your girlfriend, or your partner, blanched at these things, perhaps you would have a problem. TOAD, on the other hand, has only known this man a little while, and has never had sex with him. She's not his girlfriend. You see? Context. Intimacy. Words that are appropriate in one context are not appropriate in another. The fact that you are deliberately trying to obscure this speaks volumes about you, not TOAD.

You said "There's also a vast difference between "unequal power dynamics/power play/submission" and the type of degradation/humiliation/she's-a-nasty-slut play that he enjoys. You're asking him to lie about his interests."

No, there's really not, and I'm not. The terms "Power play" and "Domination/submission" are pretty broad categories of kink, and encompass lots and lots of very specific kinks. Furthermore, they both usually encompasses verbal humiliation as part of the package. I mean, if you were into submission without verbal humiliation you'd need to make a special request, 'cause generally that comes standard. And even if verbal humiliation was less universal, you would still not need to disclose every little specific thing you like to a girl you just met. "I like Domination/submission" is fine. Either she'll be interested and will ask more, at which time you can disclose further (still not using a potty mouth!), or she won't be, she'll leave, and you'll have done your "considerate kinkster" duty to "lay it all out there"...without being a creep, I might add.

I just wanna look at this phrase you used just a teeny-weeny bit more:
"...the type of degradation/humiliation... play that he enjoys."

and this one
"... The fantasy...[is about] the degradation..."

and this one!
"she only ever said 'I like to be called names'"

See? You're using acceptable language to refer to exactly the kind of kink that our original creepy guy had. It's not that hard. If he had said to TOAD,
"Well, I'm into submission."
and TOAD had pressed for details, he could have said any or all of these phrases YOU gave me. "I like it when the girls in porn are called names." "I like verbal humiliation." He tells her exactly what he likes without ever saying "dirty whores," or any other inappropriate language that would make kinky girls (or even ggg girls) head for the hills. And frankly, verbal humiliation is a pretty tame kink. I'll bet you, again, dollars to doughnuts, that if he'd said "I'm into verbal humiliation/like to call girls names" she would still be around.

"before someone comes back with "clearly you're inexperienced, you don't know what it is to really be in a D/S relationship", I'll admit you're right..."

You shock me.


79
Can girls wear different shades of green to indicate their level of woman-lovin'? Like if she's bi-curious, her button is a light pastel green while lady womanizers might pin on something in forest green?

This one isn't exactly tasteful either, but I once saw a t-shirt (online) that said "Girls: Satisfy your bi-curiosity here!" If I saw a cute girl wearing it, I'd tell her to sign me up. And lesbians can read between the lines -- "here is a girl that likes girls who don't look 'stereotypically' lesbian."
80
@LMBLW, just have a mmf already. That should clear the air. Maybe the wife will believe in her husbands bisexuality a bit more if she was present while he was on his knees with another guys schlong buried in his throat.
Worked for me, at least.
81
About the bi guy, sounded to me like he was flirting with former flings in front of the wife. IF that's the case, very bad behavior... I would expect the wife to be offended.

About the green button, we've had the pink triangle for a long time. As a non-stereotypical gay man, I've worn one quite a lot to make myself as immediately known as the brave flamers are. Beyond certain types of lesbians being able to find each other, it's good to be out if you can. God bless the stereotypical who pave the way for the rest of us.
82
@39, you are clearly a man. Women have to watch out for warning signals like that. He said it so blatently, it seems without reserve. I personally believe he was gaging her reaction, to see what he can get away with. It's called finesse and everyone, man or woman, should know how to use it on date with someone they don't really know. I'm not saying this guy is violent, but with the use of the words "dirty whores" it rveals a lot more than you think. There are way too many stories about women getting date raped or hurt because they brush off their initial reaction. It's the 21st century and woman like to know they will be treated with respect outside the bedroom. Using those words does not relay that to TOAD.
83
re: the green button

I have a femme friend who used to wear a little silver vulva pendant around her neck. She was very popular and got a lot of play.

Perhaps not for everyone, but it does have the advantage of being subtle if you're not looking closely but REALLY REALLY obvious if you are.
84
Doesn't this kind of go against dan's date-and-disclose, date-and-disclose advice for people who are into that stuff?I thought the recommended protocol was you have to be upfront early, weird out all the people you're gonna weird out, and eventually find someone who's into that shit too.

TOAD if you don't like him anymore you don't like him. Who really cares why, you're turned off probably by his whole vibe and personality. Game over.
85
Still haven't figured out, or found anyone to explain to me, why behavior that is immoral and cruel and unconscionable in any other context completely loses those very appropriate designations if it's part of sex play. Honestly trying to understand, but have to admit I don't.
86
@Belleweather, it has to do with consent. With consent, things are good, without consent, things are bad. It is not a distinction of certain TYPES of sex play, perfectly vanilla missionary sex is TOTALLY BAD if one party is not consenting, and really crazy mind trips are fine if both people planned and agreed and consented to the mind trip!

I think a lot of people get it in their minds that it is the *action* that is good or bad, but in fact, it is the presence or absence of CONSENT that is the real question, not any particular list of good or bad *things.*
87
I have always found that my gut is right. When it doesn't feel right for some reason, IT'S NOT RIGHT. Trust your gut. It's reacting to SOMETHING, although you may not know what it is at the moment... it's better to say "no thanks" and sort it out later than over-ride your gut and be constantly uncomfortable.

My gut is ALWAYS right. That's why it is reacting!
88
Used to be a dyke could just get a nautical star tattoo (small, tasteful, fits under the face of a watch) on her wrist and call it a day, but no, now every wannabe rocker and half of Hollywood's young starlets have got them, so there goes that...
89
"Considering what shits straight men can be—judging from my mail—surely more women would choose homosexuality if they could."

Yeah, you've obviously never been in a LTR with a woman! lol

Women are craaaayzeee. Drama factories. A total pain in the ass. Complexity frosting on paradox cake. A full-time job with minimal benefits.

I'm bi and hardly ever date women anymore because men, while they can certainly be assholes, are so much easier to deal with.

Just sayin'. ;)
90
I swear, Dan, that the vast majority of the lesbians I know (and that's quite a few) have very large dogs.In fact, the smaller the lesbian, in my experience, the larger the dog.
91
Truth to @85. I can't wrap my head around the ethically contradictions either. Since the lack of consent in ANY sexual situation is rape -- a socially sanctioned crime, I'd think that'd be a real low perch to argue the ethics of BDSM from.

@86 Beyond BDSM acts being legal (consensual) what's ethical about it? Which is what I think @85 was asking.
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Re: TOAD and the commenters who are defending her date's conversational approach:

Yes, compatible sexual interests ARE important in a relationship, and I'd advise kinksters never to hold that stuff back from a suitor and then "spring it on them" later on. Which is why, when I used to have an online personal ad, I mentioned in passing that I'm dominant and into pegging and gender fluidity.

I did NOT say "I'm gonna pull down your panties and pound your ass like the little whore you are" because that's BEDROOM talk. That's what I'd say to a trusted partner I was already intimate with. Since I draw a strict line between playtime and real life (i.e. I don't ACTUALLY believe that men are sluts who deserve to be hurt or punished), and since my ad was addressed toward a general audience and not a group of crossdressing subs, I framed my kinks in a more discreet way.

Nobody's recommending lies; just TACT. There's a goddamn difference.

(p.s. thanks to that ad, I'm now in a fantastic, healthy, loving relationship with the most beautiful little crossdressing slutboy I've ever seen. My approach worked.)
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p.p.s. If I were single and talking to a SUB, the same thing applies. A guy who says "I'm into haughty bitches who'll kick my wormy little ass" I wouldn't feel like I was in physical danger or anything but I WOULD wonder whether he's blurring the lines between life and sex.

There are subs out there who truly believe that they're stupid and bad and deserve bad treatment; there are doms who truly believe they're superior and should be allowed to treat another human being however they want. Those people are scary and emotionally unstable and I want no part of that. Good for TOAD for running away from someone who seemed to blur that line.

And, BTW, even if the guy had phrased things in a more socially acceptable manner, the bottom line is that TOAD got a weird vibe from him. She trusted her gut, which is ALWAYS better than making lists of pros and cons about someone and trying to decide logically. Remember how many famous serial killers were attractive and personable?
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@45

I guess that's simply a different standard than I've applied to my relationships.

But, even ignoring the whole "honesty is good" aspect that I hold to, even as a cynical bastard, your objection to my projection of her crying about him later bringing it up is specious at best. We've seen plenty of girls who write in to Dan doing so from the perspective of "he never told me about this kinky thing, ect. Now he really wants it, and I'm not sure I do, how can I get him to stop". And we've seen plenty of letters from guys who've been broken up with because of a kink they disclose too late in a relationship.

I think my point is: why are we all assuming that he would have known she was GGG? Everyone is referring to how TOAD is kinky, or how (as a kinky girl) they wouldn't go out with him again either, but that's skipping over part. Specifically, you're ignoring the part of "how the hell would he know that?" Even some GGG men and women would balk at a rape fantasy (I've dated some of them). And if that fantasy were important to me, it makes perfect sense to raise it at the first possible opportunity, to make sure that the the relationship I'm considering devoting time, money, and energy to is actually going to work.

If I could only contemplate dating girls who are atheists, would anyone blanch at me saying on a first date "yeah, I think religion is complete crap and that anyone who believes it is a brainwashed sheep"?

Didn't think so.

@54

I agree with you wholeheartedly

Just wanted to let you know.

@54

Wow... Just... Wow.

I'm not really sure where to start. Your practice of applying a motive without any basis except your own assumptions is both laughable and dangerous.

The attitude that in order to enjoy what can be easily described as misogynistic pornography is to have either a hidden or unexplored hatred for women is, to put it plainly, crap. And, to be honest with you, if your reaction to that type of pornography is an immediate "what the hell is wrong with you?" You're far from being one of the kinkiest straight women I'll ever meet. Don't overestimate your own level of kink as being "the 'reasonable' maximum" and declare everyone past that to have issues.

Do I agree that actually engaging in kinky play is always about a give-and-take, and making sure both partners are safe and having fun? Of course.

Do I think that having a kink which you personally enjoy in pornography is negotiable? No. Do I believe that one has to hate women to enjoy watching porn of a woman being gang-banged while called a disgusting whore? No. Do I believe that someone has to actually want to harm a child to read manga about underage children? No.

Why the hell do you?

Maybe it's a difference in how I've been raised, but I would find it more proof of his contempt if he has obfuscated, or lied, about what he enjoyed. His honest answer showed her a level of respect that she clearly didn't deserve.

@58

Perhaps it's the lawyer-in-training in me, but your fact pattern is way different from TOAD's. I don't think many decent men (much less honorable kinksters) would demand to know your fetishes before dinner. But, the difference is that you never asked.

TOAD pressed the conversation too early, and got "burned" by unexpected honesty. If you don't want to know if your partner is a cheater, don't ask if he's a cheater. If you can't handle if your partner is an atheist, don't try to take him to church.

If those are dealbreakers, ask, but it isn't his fault for being honest.

@60

Yeah, but she didn't ask 'how's your sex life', or even just 'do you watch porn'. She asked "what kind of porn do you like?" That's a world of difference.

If there was a failure to communicate here, that's fine. She just wanted to know if he was comfortable with her, and what kink of acceptably deviant things he was into. He thought she wanted an honest answer. There's no guilt to be had on either side.

Of course, I also think she should be honest and tell him "that stuff kind of freaked me out", and he can at least know that the only reason she stopped seeing him was that she couldn't handle him being honest.

@62

Semantics. Pure semantics.

That's like saying there's a difference between me saying "I'm an atheist", and me saying "I think religion is completely incorrect, and that god can't possibly exist"

True, one leaves a bit more to the imagination, but it's the same damned thing. If this woman honestly couldn't understand that "I like dirty whores being gang-banged" is actually a short-hand for saying "I like actresses who pretend to be dirty whores having sex with a large number of men in a fantasy setting", clearly she should never go to any kind of anime or comic-book convention... Or discuss any book with anyone.

Trust me, when I say that I love Karrin Murphy (in the context of discussing books), I really don't mean that I think she's real.

@64

I agree completely. Shocker, I know. I agree that there's no reason to stay in an uncomfortable situation, or force yourself to date someone you aren't liking (for whatever reason).

But, that doesn't make it the date's fault for "making" her feel that way. It's simple incompatibility, there's no guilt anywhere. What I'm reacting to are the multitudes of comments which are (fundamentally) people saying "that was really dumb of him, he freaked her out".

No, she was freaked out. He did nothing but honestly answer her inquiry. Simple incompatibility. Kind of like how if a girl doesn't find me physically attractive, it doesn't make me inherently ugly.

@65

Um... when did I say I thought "I like name-calling" would be a lie? I thought that saying "I like double-penetration" would be a lie when what you actually enjoy is verbal abuse, but that's different.

I also think that passing it off as a joke would be at the very least a sin of omission, but that's not the same thing.

Don't mistake me saying that the various suggestions of what he should have said are lies as categorically stating that anything aside from the most extreme truth is a lie.

He should have said he enjoys degradation, verbal abuse, humiliation, ect. But, to assume that because he didn't call them the appropriate phrases, he must be a misogynist who can't distinguish fantasy from reality I think is a step too far.

@67.

I guess stubborn, because I'm unwilling to accept that honestly answering a question should be considered creepy.

If you don't find his actual fetishes creepy, the fact that he explained them bluntly shouldn't be creepy. It's a pretty simple syllogism.

Do I think there's a more polite way to explain his kinks? Sure. Do I think that your assumptions regarding his personality are true? No.

We know very little of the reality of the situation, so all I'm trying to do is encourage you not to leap to conclusions. Would everything have been better if they'd not talked about this on the first date? Yes

Whose fault is it that they did? Hers.

@71

Thank you.

A rare beacon of hope in a series of posts which are persuading me that I really should stop thinking of kinksters as being at all more open or honest.

@73

Exactly. They can be incompatible even without her being an overly-sensitive bitch or him being a creepy bastard.

There doesn't have to be fault here

@76

I'm more than happy to cut her slack. But what I don't accept is the unwillingness to cut him slack for being honest.

It's not just that "he told her the truth". He must be inexperienced, he must be socially unaware, he must be an actual misogynist.

I'll lay off her, when the women here, Bon in particular, lay off him

Otherwise, I do completely agree with you. There's no fault for this. He was more open than she was prepared for. She asked a question she shouldn't have asked. He should have been more politic in his response.

No one's to blame.

@78

"Come on, now. You're being obtuse on purpose. I think you see the difference very well but now you're just stubbornly hanging on to your original opinion. If not, let's break it down, shall we?"

You really do like assuming motivations for other people's statements, and purporting them to be true, don't you? Rather than actually taking the time to have an honest conversation, you just want to apply your own suppositions for my beliefs and feelings, and call it good.

That does put your previous posts in a different light.

"You can either admit that charged language is acceptable in some contexts and not in others, or you can stay stuck in your totally made up catch-22 of "if I tell she'll run away, if I don't she'll be mad later." It's your choice."

And it can't possibly be TOAD's fault for asking a question she didn't want the answer to? You keep forgetting (or ignoring purposefully, I'll leave it up to you to decide which) that he didn't bring it up out of the blue. She asked him. So, I accept that 'charged language' is only acceptable in certain contexts. Answering a direct question is one of them.

Lying is bad, remember?

"...I assume you mean "we deem that it exists."
Yes, that's true...and?"

There's no objective truth to the acceptability of the more clinical way to describe it. You're more comfortable with one explanation and series of words over another. That doesn't make it right, just the way you feel. It's a subjective question, not objective.

"No, it's not. It's exactly the same porn, just with acceptable, grown up language attached to it, although what you are describing could be called "anal sex" or "anal play", since you don't specifically mention double penetration. It's this sentence more than any other that makes me think you're deliberately choosing to pretend you don't see the difference."

It's the same porn, but a different aspect I find attractive. If I simply call that anal, I'm not actually sharing the part of it I truly find enjoyable. So, assuming my girlfriend is GGG (which I doubt TOAD is), she'll approach me with the part of the fantasy she knows about, and is still completely unaware of the part of the fantasy that's truly important to me.

If the point of his answer was to give her an honest view into what he likes (even though the point of her question obviously was not to acquire an honest view into what he likes), then calling it anal wouldn't actually be giving her an honest response.

True, it'd be technically true (the porn does contain anal), but not really honest.

"Words that are appropriate in one context are not appropriate in another. The fact that you are deliberately trying to obscure this speaks volumes about you, not TOAD."

She asked. She asked. She asked.

I'm going to keep repeating this until eventually you comprehend that she asked a question, and he answered honestly (as any decent person would). And, not for nothing, but if a girl (even on a first date) asked me a personal question, I'm going to answer it. Why would I (or anyone else) want to date someone who can't accept who I am? Much less one who asks a question without wanting an honest response.

If I ask my date whether she's ever cheated, I don't want a response of "well, what really counts as cheating". I want a direct, honest, complete, answer. The truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Maybe I just like being honest. Call me crazy.

"Either she'll be interested and will ask more, at which time you can disclose further (still not using a potty mouth!), or she won't be, she'll leave, and you'll have done your "considerate kinkster" duty to "lay it all out there"...without being a creep, I might add."

So...

The end result is the same, and it just takes more time to get there? That seems like a bad deal for me. She still leaves, and all I've done is waste more time on a girl who can't accept honesty, and is clearly (despite calling herself GGG), quite unable to distinguish between the level of fantasy one has, and the level of fantasy one wants to engage in.

"And frankly, verbal humiliation is a pretty tame kink. I'll bet you, again, dollars to doughnuts, that if he'd said "I'm into verbal humiliation/like to call girls names" she would still be around."

I completely agree. But the fact that he didn't doesn't make him creepy. It just makes him more blunt. She asked him a question, and the first thing that came to his mind was the direct and blunt answer of "I like seeing dirty whores", rather than the much more political answer of "well, I enjoy verbal abuse, with some degradation". I bet if she had asked him in a different setting, less alcohol, and given him time to think about a more polite answer, he wouldn't have said what he said.

"You shock me"

Yeah, unless D/S relationships are inherently less healthy than normal relationships, the difference in this case is meaningless. If a prospective girlfriend asked me a question, I would answer it honestly.

Why do I want to be with someone who would as a question without wanting an honest answer, or (worse) can't accept the answer I give.

On the other side: why would my date want to be with someone who doesn't give an honest answer

@82

I am indeed male. But, I'd like you to remember that TOAD pushed the issue. She asked. He answered. He showed her the respect of being honest, rather than trying to manipulate her, and censor his actions in order to appeal to her.

@84

That's what I've been trying to say. Dan is pretty clear about advocating that we disclose upfront our kinkiness, lest we spring it on people. His advice to TOAD's date through TOAD is to be disingenuous about it.

@92

But, the line between acceptable explanation of kink, and bedroom talk is a pretty fine one. He didn't say "I like to see women call themselves dirty whores while gagging themselves on dicks", he simply said he liked dirty whores, gang-bangs, ect.

I'd say his response is pretty close to your statement that you like pegging.

That's what the disagreement is. And, bear in mind (as I'll repeat until people accept it):

she asked him what he liked.
95
seldon2639 -- last week's Savage Love column provides no evidence of what you decry as a "complicated game, and more just that we just can't win for losing. If I shy away from that revelation early on, and I obfuscate (which, let's face it, is lying), I'm a bastard. Brass tacks, when it comes down to it, the only way to get out of saying "I like rape, dirty whores, and gang-bangs" if I like those things is to be misleading. I can always say "well, I like a lot of different things, and "oh, I like oral sex, I guess", but that's just as much a lie as if I'd said "I don't watch porn". Then, later, if I mention it once we're really close, I've been hiding it, and if she does think it's sick and wrong, she's going to backlash against it (remember, please, the guy from last week whose girlfriend did just that)."

This was *not* the scenario presented to Dan last week by Feminist Rape Fantasist. FRF told Dan that he just recently had been "coming to terms with the fact that I am turned on by rape fantasies." When he broached the topic with his girlfriend by suggesting that act out his fantasy of feeling up a woman on the subway, his girlfriend didn't accuse him of hiding anything from her; rather, she offered to "help [him] figure out and work through the psychological gender-power issues behind it" in the hope that he would be "cured."

In any event, it's of no consequence to me if a man were to later deem me dishonest because I hadn't been been blunt or graphic about my kinks in the preliminary stages of our relationship. If he can't understand why I want to feel a certain measure of trust before revealing something I consider to be personal, then he's too immature for me anyway. And because I value discretion and what I consider to be sound judgment, what TOAD describes would be a deal breaker in my book.

Are you and that man "wrong" in any ethical sense? Nope, but you're wrong for me -- and I get to decide that for myself. Just as it's your prerogative to reject a woman who doesn't share your view that "oral sex is a basic right in a relationship."



96
@95

I completely agree. And if any of us could have had this conversation from the beginning without devolving into blame, epithets, and attempts to paint the person we're most sympathetic towards as being completely right in this, no real heated argument could have happened.

But, the fact that the girlfriend last week's reaction wasn't simply "how dare you hide this", doesn't make her reaction any less bad, or any less preventable by being open and honest from the get-go. True, in last week's case it would have lead to a break-up early on, but that's still preferable.

Only two things can happen if I'm honest upfront. She either accepts it, or we never see each other again. If I keep it hidden, she can either accept it, break up, or try the 'we'll fix you' crap. If it's either of the second two cases, we have to break up anyway. So, if you can't accept my kinks presented forthrightly, I'd much rather break up before I've put any real emotional energy into the relationship.

The specific reaction is different, but the fact pattern fits.

As I said, though, I completely agree that they're simply incompatible (as you and I would be). The issue I took was in attempting to blame the man for having been honest, and paint him as a creepy bastard, rather than simply accepting that due to no ones fault, they were not compatible.
97
Seldon 2639:
I'm honestly curious:
Do you have anything else to do today?
At all?

98
Okay, Jem, that helps me along to the next question, and again I am not trying to make trouble, I'm absolutely 1000% in favor of benign sexual variations of all kinds. But I'm just wrestling with this on a theoretical level. Consent is indeed a very big thing but we don't say that abuse is okay between a couple just because the abused partner says it's okay. So why does it become okay during sex play? Where's the line drawn? If someone finds it sexually stimulating to be hit to the point of bruising, and finds the bruises sexually stimulating, is that okay? When is consent *not* enough, I guess is my question. And is it possible that even with consent and safeguards, it is still unhealthy for someone to be, say, reliving abuse through re-enactment? Thanks, not many people seem to want to go here and again, I am trying very hard to understand a loved one who's into kink w/o being judgmental.
99
As a woman with a LOT of experience under my belt, I have found as a rule of thumb, that men who are heavily into porn are BAD NEWS WITH A BULLET. By heavily into; I mean that they actually HAVE a collection of it, and those into the "kinky stuff' are even WORSE. Porn is degradation of women, period, full stop. Men who habitually indulge in porn, particularly the degraded-woman stuff ENJOY seeing women degraded. Ask yourself: is this the sort of person you want as a boyfriend? true, men like to look at porn, and the man who NEVER indulges is a rare bird, but there IS a difference between someone who OCCASIONALLY indulges, and someoen who HABITUALLY indulges."When you touch pitch you become dirty"; a man who ENJOYS the idea of degraded women and who INDULGES it regularly is NOT someone who likes or respects women. Caveat emptor!
100
@94

I think you're right on this one. From the information given in the letter, it's likely that the problem is just simple incompatibility. TOAD asked the question, and perhaps she only realized when he started talking that she wasn't quite ready for that yet. And probably when she bolted, the dude sat there wondering "what the fuck? she WANTED to talk about porn!" She's not wrong for being creeped out, that just happens sometimes. But if you try to see it from the guy's perspective, he was probably pretty goddamned confused when she freaked and ran. Poor bugger probably WAS just being honest, and perhaps very excited at a potentially kinky new partner. No crime in that, is there?
101
@99

Whoa, are you serious? I'm a woman whose boyfriend habitually looks at porn....and I also habitually look at porn. Porn is wonderful, ESPECIALLY the kinky stuff (someone up there mentioned kink.com, those magnificent bastards). Those kinds of generalizations really just show that your knowledge of men is both limited and very, very sad.