Comments
Please wait...
Comments are closed.
Commenting on this item is available only to members of the site. You can sign in here or create an account here.
is a proud member of the
media network
media network
All contents © Index Newspapers LLC
800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
Whatever it takes!!
While lifting my luggage has probably helped me to come over that period of time, it's certainly lifted my desire to elevate my partners' liking for what I can do for her to greater heights.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.ph…
Page 1 of 56,000 results:
http://www.google.ca/search?q=whatever+l…
I'd say you did it already. (And did I mention how cute Terry is...??)
Take me, I'm a sub male (and a part-time cross dresser). I'm not that much into pain, which means I'll probably scream pretty loud once you really hurt me.
and BTW. If I had any faith in humanity, I'd have lost it after reading your letter, MIP.
I feel bad for MIP. There's no point hitting her over the head with a stick in regards to the immorality of cheating with a monogamous married man. She already knows all that, and pointing it out to her won't change her mind.
But somebody needs to be a bit harsh and tell her to wake up! He is willing to cheat on the person he is married to and shares his life with. I'm not going to speculate on the emotional or sexual bond between him and his wife, but you cannot deny that there is a bond, nor can you underestimate it. His wife is his next of kin. She is the one who gets to decide what happens to him in the case of incapacitating illness. She is the one who is responsible for his debts, and whose debts he is responsible for. Even if he's not in romantic love with his wife, he at least trusts her and likes her enough to keep her in this position in his life. And he's willing to cheat on her. Why wouldn't he be willing to cheat on any other woman he sleeps with?
If you are going to keep sleeping with him, accept him for what he is. Don't be another in a long line of women who lie to themselves about their man, despite the truth staring them in the face.
This week's column is solid, each advice straight (or gay) to the point, nothing important to add. Just a bitching coment for MIP: Ma'am, you are just trying to act as a control freak with your lover. Go on, keep doing it and destroy your affaire AND your marriage at the same time. Deep down, perhaps that's what you are attempting to do.
@ 17 I don't think the gayish neighbors were expecting her to go for it right away, at the play party. They might forget what's it's like to be squeaky-new in such a scene.
I would like to add to Dan's excellent advice to the want to be good neighbors: when you have the conversation Dan suggests above, please don't have it in your or her apartment or house. Take her out somewhere for lunch. ;) There's a disruption of balance of power, telling her something like that over your place, & she might feel weird if you guys drop this news on her at her home as well. I dunno, maybe that's only my hangup. But I suggest a neutral space for that revelation. I have many gay guy pals, & decent gaydar, so I dunno if this situation could happen to me. But if guys in my life I thought were gay really weren't & liked me, I'd definitely need a drink w/ that news. OH the things I tell my Gay Boyfriends...
Boffo, Dan.
Good advice Dan.
Oh and how exactly does one keep one's email "unattended"??
Off to work "lifts your luggage" into a manuscript.
My step-dad was unfaithful with my mother, and divorce ended the marriage. The woman, or the last woman, he was unfaithful to my mother with ended up marrying him. Many years later, I ran into one of her daughters. She was telling me how my former step-dad had been, wait for it, unfaithful to her mother. All I could say was "No shit?"
I am beginning to think that some women just like the drama and choose men like that on purpose.
Additionally, electronic eavesdropping is a criminal offense...
Finally the FRC and I agree on something! Only for that one sentence, but, hey, it's a start. Take out Christian and replace it with generically religious, political, or just plain leaders.
George Rekers and his ilk to bring back "I'm not gay, but my _________ is!" t-shirts. Fill in the blank #hypocriteshirt
Rentboy, bellhop, contracted European holiday companion who provides massages and dinner dates...
Back feeling better?
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Whatever-l…
(And yeah, I'm in 5 years and counting. Yes, I'm a fucking idiot, no need to tell me.)
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Whatever-l…
Yay...just yay. I dunno how I missed this!
Dan> was the 'we tried to change the sexuality of our child' line a joke or an admittance of total hypocrisy on this issue?
i found myself thinking "what a loser" after the first paragraph. i quickly chastised myself for being so judgmental and thought, without thinking about it, "hey man, whatever lifts your luggage."
mission accomplished.
Right there with ya girl, I sooooooooo hear ya....
Seven years in myself, but dammit, the sex is fucking PHENOM!!!!!!
He's a POS. She's a POS. They probably deserve each other. Reading letters like this makes me want to RUN right out and get a boyfriend....
Dan, you said that it was performance anxiety. But I think it could be something else. I've also noticed that I'm often attracted to the ugly ones. But it's not that I'm intimidated by the good looking ones, I think that it's just my wiring which responds to different types of looks than the culturally agreed on notions of attractiveness.
I am also attracted to the kinds of character strengths which develop in people as a result of not having to rely on looks, so for me, I don't think it's about power. It's about my hormones knowing what they like, my wiring knowing what works, and my eyes being not so onto it. My eyes are the ones which notice what the rest of society notices, which is whether someone is attractive in the conventional model, popular ideas of beauty.
Yes and no. While Dan has given authority (even imperative) to married people whose sex lives are unsatisfying to cheat if no other option is available, he never discussed any responsibility the cheater has to the other woman/man.
I don't think Dan's position here is "he's not being a jackass for cheating on MIP, because she's just the other woman", I think his point is "morality is irrelevant, the reality is that a man who's not going to want to be monogamous with his wife isn't going to be so into you that he gives up all other women as well." So, yes, it is very much an issue of "if he'll leave her for you, he'll leave you for someone else".
So, it's not a "you deserved it" in a moralistic "you're getting your just deserts" kind of thing. It's more along the lines of "this was completely predictable, and the fact that you signed on for it means you're getting what you asked for". If someone is too stupid to recognize "hmm... A guy who's going to cheat on his wife for me isn't likely to be exclusive to me, even if he promises to", is functionally leotarded.
He's still an ass, but she knew that going into it. You don't shoot a duck for quacking.
@43
Yes, she wants the fantasy of "I'm so fantastic and wonderful that he can't resist", and the idea that he would find a bunch of other women just as infidelity-inducing kills that.
She has to come to grips with the fact that it wasn't overwhelming desire for her that made him cheat, and that she isn't any "better" than his wife, or than the other women. Otherwise, she's going to constantly keep going back to him to reaffirm the delusion that he truly prefers her.
Hugh Grant didn't really like the prostitute more than Elizabeth Hurley
Dan nailed it on the head. A few pieces of advice:
Find out *what* her kinks are before you make the admission. There's no point in trying to seduce/cajole her into joining you, then rushing home to the sight of your "curious" friend wearing a massive strap-on and brandishing a paddle that would make a Catholic school nun flush with envy. Unless, of course, you're into that sort of thing.
Once her level of kink has been established, the both of you should meet her alone, separate from each other. Feel her out, see if she's actually *attracted* to either one of you.
Make the admission in a private place, limiting any sort of alcohol/intoxicating substance use. If she's really interested, it's better to say it sober. And seeing as how (according to your letter) she's literally a one-in-a-million catch, the timely application of the, "If it's you, it's OK.", qualifier could be very effective.
With any luck, you'll soon learn that your mutual object of affection is a yaoi-loving submissive with a penchant for spitroasts and Chinese fingercuffs. However, taking her to a play party on one day, then blurting out your attraction to her on the next may be seen as contrived or *gasp* aggressive. And if you scare her, the last thing you'll see is her steadily dwindling back as she runs into the sunset.
Start by telling her you're actually bi and let her chew on that new information for a while, maybe a few weeks. After a little while, after she sees you as bi, and still non-threatening, then you can admit that you're attracted to her and see if she's interested.
I'd bet anything that something's happened in her past that makes her nervous about men and that's why she stuck by her gay protectors at the party. I'd say play this one slow and casual. It would really suck to make things awkward between you and your new neighbor.
Well, good luck with it...you will never find a deeper mindfuck on the planet. The rollercoaster ride is *intense*. Wish there was a way to discreetly exchange emails, because if you are like me, you would probably love to have an understanding ear....most of America are like charming #58.... ;)
Here's an old Native American fable for MIP: Old woman befriends poisonous snake. One day snake bites her, but before she dies she asks the snake, "Why did you bite me? I thought we were friends? The snake replies, "Look, you knew I was a snake."
While @58 was, perhaps, unfair, it is kind of difficult to work up a whole lather of sympathy for a woman complaining about being hurt by a man who is by definition hurtful and unfaithful.
I guess my confusion is how it's a mindfuck at all. You're sleeping with a liar and a cheater, is it really a mindfuck when he lies and cheats? I'm not saying it's a good thing that he isn't faithful, or that he lies about his level of fidelity to his partner, but you knew that going into the situation.
I'm really not meaning to be insensitive, but I'm honestly completely bewildered. I think the point is that such overwhelming failure to recognize a pattern (if he's a cheater, he's a cheater, you're not special enough to make a cheater exclusive to you) leads some to think that MIP is simply an idiot.
We met because we were both unfulfilled in our marriages and wanted sexual satisfaction, but yet did not want to destroy our families. We both wanted something safe, hot and very, very discreet on the side that enabled us to be sexually contented, but yet stay with our children, and yes, even our respective spouses. Believe it or not, we both love our spouses and our families even if we no longer find sexual fulfilment within those bounderies.
As I mentioned previously, I have been seeing my lover for 7 years. What we have has gone from sex, to porn-style fucking, to some actually pretty intense lovemaking. We have grown to know a lot of intimate details about each other, and care about each other a lot. Whereas I know his wife and his family are obviously always #1, I will admit that yes, I would be upset if he had yet another woman besides me for several reasons, because I have come to feel very close to him indeed over the years.
Here are some of my reasons I would feel betrayed:
1. Less time to spend with me....very jealous! If he can get away for a tryst (and its hard because his wife monitors him so closely), I want him to be spending his free time with ME dammit!
2. Obvious health and safety concerns.
3. I would feel like I was not satisfying to him- we have HOT sex, why should he take further risk when he has it so good with me?
4. I don't think either of us are into the whole "lying and cheating" for the sake of the adventure/getting away with something. We are doing this for the physical pleasure involved, not because we get off on the cheating. We are both TERRIFIED we will get caught and take huge precautions not to. Another person would be another layer of lies for him and more chance of getting caught- to me , to his wife. More risk.
So yes....I admit that it is not 100% logical, but it would greatly hurt me if he had another, but those are my reasons. Based more on emotion than stone cold logic I am afraid....so sue me, I am a woman ;).
And the lack of logic inherent in that, I think, is what bristles the hides of many people here. It's not so much that we abhor cheating in general (I do, personally, but it's not my place to judge), as it is that we see a disconnect between the concepts of "he could be unfaithful with someone else, but should be faithful to me".
Without any more details of MIP's relationship (not knowing whether the man is in an unfulfilling marriage, has kids, or anything else), the assumption we all have is that he's just in it for some quick sex on the sly. If she knew that going in (that he was a cheater and a liar, insofar as he lied in his vows), she kind of got what was inevitably coming to her.
I don't think many people who have read Savage Love for long will believe that it's always universally possible to find sexual satisfaction within a marriage for eternity (though, some sympathy is lost if you cheated without making a good faith effort to cheat it), and we do understand that sometimes a bit on the side is necessary not to do something more destructive.
I think what it comes down to (on any of your reasons for feeling betrayed) is that while you are perfectly entitled to feel hurt by his decisions, everyone else is entitled to think that you should have seen it coming. I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but.
1. He's already willing to forgo time with the people who should be most important to him to be with you. It only stands to reason that if he got the chance to have steamy sex with someone else he was even more attracted to/into the same kinks as/is more convenient, he'd take the opportunity
2. Same sort of thing. He's willing to risk his wife's safety by being with you, it's only reasonable to expect him to be just as cavalier about your health and safety
3. Same thing. If he'll go behind his wife's back to be with someone more satisfying (you), he'll go behind your back to be with someone else more satisfying.
4. It doesn't require that he get off on the cheating, just that he find someone else to be more pleasurable.
I think a lot of it boils down to balking at the mistress fantasy of "I'm special enough that he'll break his vows to be with me". It's all Lady Chatterly's lover, and it's unrealistic to a lot of people. If he has so little concern for his vows/promises that he'll sleep with someone who happens to be "more satisfying", there's no reason to expect that he won't do the same to you when he finds someone more satisfying.
No one is saying he wouldn't be scum. Everyone is saying that you signed up to sleep with someone who's scum.
I am actually going out on a limb here, because there is this huge view of cheaters as morally bankrupt people. I cheat out of sexual desperation. It really isn't my first choice; I wish my husband sastified me. I wish I met my lover years before I met my husband. Cheating is NOT my first option. However, it is my most palatable option (over divorce or a sexless life). I strive to be a decent human being, but I cheat because I feel backed into a corner; I realize not every cheater is like me (Tiger Woods?), but I would be willing to say there are many in my situation.
Now to address your rebuttals:
1. We tend to see each other when we are either supposed to be working, or his wife is away and his kids are asleep. So we never miss out on family time, the only one who really gets screwed (pun intended) in terms of missing out on our time is our respective bosses.
2. He is not compromising his wife's safety by being with only me and me alone. I am married and clean.....again....7 years. As long as we are "faithful" to each other and our spouses...well, surely you see how that is safe.
3. Lol...impossible ;) You will just have to take my word on this *grin*. It truly is mind bending!
4. Again, this goes back to #3.
Strangely, I am confident that he will NEVER top our physical experiences together, EVER. Its just not possible, as we have reached the zenith, and of course it has taken 7 years for us to build up enough trust to let ourselves go and discover how to really get each other off like we do. I don't value him because he cheats with me, I value him because he can play my bosdy like an instrument, he taught me how to come on his cock from penetration alone, he taught me I can have multiple orgasms......
I don't think my lover is scum; I mean, he pisses me off a lot!! But not in the way MIP's man is, and the way you are assuming all cheaters operate. He came to me because his wife almost never gives him sex. He not only misses the feeling of shooting a load in a woman, he loves to please me! Jacking off will never give him the same feeling of having me moan and squirm and tell him how good he makes me feel. He cheats not because he is "scum" as you put it, who likes to fuck around on his wife just because he is a dick, but because he misses this special connection with a woman that his wife denies. Now that he has a woman in his life that he cares for and provides it, why should he go elsewhere, since he really is a pretty decent guy? I don't think he would have ever cheated either if his wife had stopped denying him sex.
I guess everybody out there who is so happy to judge MIP has already forgotten the lesson of "whatever lifts your luggage." The fact is that people cheat for many reasons; it's not always immoral when they do; and as long as people aren't doing it simply as a way to cruelly punish or manipulate someone I think the cheaters deserve the benefit of the doubt.
Scum is, perhaps, a more emotion-invoking word than I should have used. I guess the feeling that anyone who is willing to cheat on his wife (or husband) would also be willing to cheat on the person he's cheating with comes from similar experiences in dating. If she'll leave another guy for me, she'll leave me for another guy.
Yes, if you're confident that he will never, ever, ever, find someone more perfect than you (see: Lady Chatterly's Lover Fantasy), you're probably safe. But, that's a different issue. Your argument isn't "he wouldn't cheat on me like he cheated on his wife because he's honorable, it's because I'm awesome enough to keep him". That, at least, is respectable.
But, let's assume he does. If he did, it would be because he found someone more desirable. You would have position to complain that he didn't find you as desirable as you think you should be (which would be met with derision by many people), and that he broke his promise to you (same thing).
As before, my point isn't that MIP doesn't have a right to complain, just that everyone else is reasonable to meet her complaints with dismissal and invective.
Obviously we will agree to disagree about whether a guy who would cheat to find "that something special" would be willing to be monogamous to the special someone while double-dealing his wife, but to each their own. My point is that when/if he does cheat, it will be predictable to most people, and thus you will not get the amount of sympathy you would if you hadn't know he was willing to cheat in the first place.
Infidelity has a lot more impact when you have a cause to anticipate fidelity.
Of course, there ARE also scumbag cheaters who are in this for the power drive, the secrecy, the "James Bond" feeling; that's the "they-can't-catch-me!" con artist.
It's just that these are different people, as different as night and day. (OK, there are intermediate types as well; but that only goes to show that everything is case by case.)
Badgirl, even though I am a quite satisfied man married to a lovely and also (so she says) quite satisfied woman in a monogamous marriage, I can understand your situation very well, because I have a friend -- one of the greatest guys I've ever met, a man I profoundly admire for many reasons -- who is exactly in your situation. His wife has stopped giving him sex, for some reason or other -- her libido disappeared faster (she is 8 years older than he is and is now about to hit 50) -- and he grew more and more desperate. It took him about five years of suffering before he started cheating -- and to this day he does it with many emotional problems. I'm one of two or three people who he trusts with the details of his situation, and I can see both the depth of his love for his wife and the level of desperation that his sexless life had given him. I certainly know he is not a "compulsive cheater" or a "power-is-play" cheater.
And I don't want to blame his wife. He tells me she suffers too, she tries to give him sex but it just doesn't turn her on the way it used to anymore, so he feels unfulfilled, she feels unfulfilled, she feels sad for him, he feels sad for her, they try to comfort each other, and nobody gets off. So they reached some sort of don't-ask-don't-tell situation in which she pretends she doesn't know and he does his best to hide any evidence.
I wished life were simpler. Like you, my friend certainly would love it if his wife were to be as passionate as she once was, but she apparently is never going to be again. Such is life.
Thank you again for keeping your tone respectful even when you disagree. I think where the disconnect lies is the fact that you are getting your experience of cheaters from the dating arena as you state above. I would think that those types of cheaters might be more of the "player" variety....the ones who cheat because they get off on the whole cheating scenario.
Perhaps MIP's man is like this. I am lacking the background information to know. If he is, then I will agree with you, you can't hang with a player and not expect to get played; that is simply foolish.
However, I would say that there are a different breed of cheaters out there, us "reluctant" cheaters...myself and ankylosaur's friend would qualify. One of the first indicators of the reluctant cheater would probably be married/children (trapped!). I would submit that our respective lovers *would* be ok in expecting fidelity from us if that was what we had promised each other. Considering the primary purpose of these extra-marital relationships was sexual pleasure, and again, many of them were entered quasi-reluctantly, we should not enter them with a lie about the sex. Unlike other relationships, sex is our primary goal: you must not lie about it, and if the sex becomes less then amazing, why bother? If you find someone you like to fuck better then me, at that point, just end it, I am not your wife.
Odd, but does it make a strange sort of sense if one puts it in this perspective?
I think the issue is that most mistresses I've ever heard from (or simple "other women", in the case that the cheater isn't married) complains that they expected fidelity from the person they were cheating with, and were disappointed. The relationships weren't usually based on the idea that this is just sex, but on the fantasy that desire for her had overwhelmed him.
There are many different types of cheaters, I accept. And if your point is that a good kind of cheater is one who doesn't expect fidelity from his other woman, and doesn't promise fidelity, I agree. But, in the same breath, no other woman should expect fidelity of any order higher than "until this is more trouble than it's worth, or I get a better deal, I'm yours".
You seem to be better off than MIP, and if your partner in infidelity were to stray from having strayed (as it were), I think you wouldn't be the type to try to rally sympathy by claiming he should have shown your relationship more faith than his relationship with his wife (in both cases, a lack of satisfaction from sex, or the offer of more satisfying sex, brought his attention elsewhere). The problem I (and many others, it seems) takes with MIP is that she's complaining that the most predictable result happened.
Perhaps MIP's partner should have ended it (it would have been more respectful), but she didn't have call to expect respect. Besides, it doesn't take a James-Bond-esque "catch me if you can" thrill of the forbidden to want to make sure that you have hos in different area codes. His actions make perfect sense if we assume he doesn't have any consideration for the wellbeing of his partners (as MIP should expect), and simply wants to make sure he can always get some wherever he is.
She expected him to act in a way counter to what any evidence of his actions would indicate comes naturally to him. What I'm complaining about is that people are calling him a bad man for hurting her, and treating her like an innocent victim. She signed up to be treated like shit.
@81
If you lie down with pigs, you wake up smelling like livestock.
http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=…
You're right about the mindfuck and the roller coaster. Sometimes I feel like I'm trying to navigate through the twilight zone, so I must admit it helps to hear your very frank perspective.
Seven years seems like an eternity right now! I think I'm just trying to keep it all in perspective and get through today and tomorrow...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlnQZVTAc…
Its no problem. Its a humbling experience. What many people forget is that few grow up WANTING to be cheaters. I sure didn't; I never foresaw this lifepath for myself. I know my lover is certainly not proud of his actions either. Its tragic in a way- I would love for my friends and family to know this funny and charming man whom I feel so deeply for, yet I must keep him hidden, and I know he is ashamed of not me per se, yet the role I play in his life. He has even said had we met in any other way, we would be the best of friends since we are two sides of the same coin.
So those who are judgemental- well, we suffer enough at our own hands....at least those of us "reluctant cheaters" do, wishing perhaps that things had not gone quite the way they had. But yet not knowing how to resolve them for the greatest good, we continue. It did teach me to have more empathy for others, and more humility. To be less judgemental, since I am so very flawed and far from perfect myself.
Good luck my dear.
Still, divorce is not an option for either of us, and we know and accept that our families will come first for both of us. Being together brings us much happiness, and that can happen only rarely. The rest of the time, well, we talk as often as we can.
I do wish that I had met him before I met my husband. But if wishes were horses ...
We are neither of us proud of what we are doing. I go through more than enough guilt, but I am trying to do the best I can under the circumstances. I never thought I would cheat on my husband. But I am not ashamed of my lover, and like you said, I would love to introduce him to my family.
Now, after trying to reignite some, no, ANY romance into our lovelife I have heard these tidbits: :
" you need to quit trying so hard"
"What we have is fine."
"do you feel like you still need Viagra?"
"I bet we have more sex than most people our age".
In Any discussion of our intimacy, she immediately refers to my affair as a default cause of any lack of interest.
So here I am, 57 years old and boy is it OVER
t
I've been with my guy off and on for 5 years, like I said. We were both married when we met (I'm divorced now) and were work colleagues for 4 years before anything started. He'd been unfulfilled in his marriage for many years, both sexually and emotionally - she just didn't connect with him the way he needed despite years of trying.
I can see now that it was the typical "I am the one who he's always needed and I will save him" dynamic on my side... and since I was new to such things I didn't see it. Until him I was very strict that married men were OFF LIMITS... but I fell so hard for him and so fast that it didn't matter. Yeah, the sex was and is great.... but that's because I'm IN LOVE with him. And he is with me.
He told his wife 3 1/2 years ago, ostensibly because he was going to leave. Didn't happen. Went back and forth for a year, told me he was leaving, we found an apartment, and then he changed his mind before he moved in. They went to counseling. End of story, he's staying and she thinks he hasn't seen me in over 2 years.
So he's chosen a double life in order to maintain the marriage and family, AND have me on the side. In a fucked up way I think I am one of the reasons he can stay married.... which definitely makes me NOT a home wrecker. I'm under no illusion any longer that we're riding off into the sunset some day.
So why do I stay? I can't explain it exactly. Because I do love him... but I don't trust him. (Also he's exhibited some stalkerish behavior when I've tried to walk away before... which makes it hard to leave). So even though I don't hope to find anything like the intimacy we've built in these years with anyone else, someday I need to get out.
I don't even know if anyone who hasn't been in this can even understand how complicated it is. Glad that there are a couple of other people here who get it... even though I'm sorry you have to live with this the way I do.
Dan, don't you love the way your readers look out for each other?
At least for me, part of the problem with having a secret relationship is that, well, there are so few people in my life with whom I can talk about it. And even the people I can tell haven't been there, so I can only say so much about the painful bits before they (understandably) say "oh just get out." Talking about the good parts usually just draws incredulous stares.
Still, it's good to know that you're out there, and I'm sorry for the pain you've been through. I'm also thankful to Dan, who's done a brilliant job of providing a forum--with a surprisingly small asshole contingent--for people to talk openly.
I have met some very nice men and have some wild sex but one thing I do not do is expect them to be "faithful" to me, any more than I am "faithful" to them. I don't believe in the whole monogamy thing anyway. And from my experience, very few men do. I tell them about my other relationships and they tell me about theirs sometimes. (Depends on the guy.) It can be very arousing. It also takes the pressure off them to pretend they are somehow faithful to me. We're in it for sexual fun, period. If we click in other ways and can be friends, great. But that's where it stops.
If you're going to play this game, you have to do it with a realistic attitude.
And by the way, all those married women out there who think they can keep a man faithful despite a lousy, boring or non-existent sex life are deluding themselves. Put out or shut up and let him live a little and meet his needs with someone who loves sex and lets him know it.
I have come to the conclusion based on my own experience that you can never say what is going on within a relationship, unless you are a part of it.
I have come to the conclusion based on my own experience that you can never say what is going on within a relationship, unless you are a part of it.
I have come to the conclusion based on my own experience that you can never say what is going on within a relationship, unless you are a part of it.