Savage Love

In Your Image

Comments

203
@200: Is overweight Canadian Jane smart, funny, etc.? Then yes. If I'm not fucking someone, I don't give a crap what they look like. All I care about is whether they are fun to be around and whether they treat me and other people decently.

But I don't think I'm obligated to have that approach. If fundamentalist Christians really get under my skin (and they actually don't-- my little sister is an evangelical), then I think it's OK to remove myself from situations involving fundamentalist Christians. From the very many anti-religious comments on this thread, I do not think this is a controversial opinion.

As to your two strategies, I agree with (1) completely, and I agree with the first part of (2) as it relates to assaults. I'm unwilling to nail a kid to the wall for verbal comments, at least the first time. I would definitely intervene in the event of a pattern of verbal abuse, though.
204
@200: Is overweight Canadian Jane smart, funny, etc.? Then yes. If I'm not fucking someone, I don't give a crap what they look like. All I care about is whether they are fun to be around and whether they treat me and other people decently.

But I don't think I'm obligated to have that approach. If fundamentalist Christians really get under my skin (and they actually don't-- my little sister is an evangelical), then I think it's OK to remove myself from situations involving fundamentalist Christians. From the very many anti-religious comments on this thread, I do not think this is a controversial opinion.

As to your two strategies, I agree with (1) completely, and I agree with the first part of (2) as it relates to assaults. I'm unwilling to nail a kid to the wall for verbal comments, at least the first time. I would definitely intervene in the event of a pattern of verbal abuse, though.
205
It seems absurd that I have to make a post about how great you are.
I mean you only state the obvious.
Do you get paid for that?

Remarkably though, you seem to have few competitors.

It is so important to try to shake and wake up the "good" Christian people who tell gay children implicitly that they are dishonorable.
PC language can't obscure that.
And some children choose death because of what these "good" Christian people tell us and their children.

Thanks again Dan for stating the obvious.

206
Everyone covered this very nicely. If IHSN still feels like their points remain valid, someone ought to feel free to pore over their text and find all of the inconsistencies in logic and redefinitions of the debate, and lay them kindly out for IHSN.

If, that is, they think IHSN isn't a troll and is open to reason (questionable items, both).

I feel myself that I have already given more than too much energy and time to this juvenile vampire-troll.
207
I agree, Dan. It is high fucking time that we stop feeling like we have to play nice with bigots. I'm so tired of people for whom I've voted bending over backward to make "people of faith" feel OK with the gays. As a gay man who recently moved from Utah to Olympia, I can tell you that the problem is even worse there. So many open minded people there trick themselves into believing that they are somehow above it all by accepting the ignorance of their neighbors. They say, "We should respect their religion, and we should never be caught in a situation where we are challenging their beliefs." BULLSHIT. It's time for people with REAL and TRUE morals to stand up and STOP BEING NICE TO BIGOTS. Tell them that they are wrong. Tell them that their children will be baffled top hear their views in 10 years. Tell them that it is absolutely WRONG, even from a Christian perspective, to judge people as they do. Be MILITANT! Why is is OK for other minorities to aggressively pursue their cause, but not us?!?!
208
Hey Dan - LOVE the column. Want an additional BF??
209
@201: You're right. We always sit around and pontificate on bullshit. Well fuck that: I just donated $100 to the Trevor Project. Anyone else with me?

I'm not saying throwing money at the problem is the solution. But it's a good deal more useful than my postings today. :)
210
Hey Dan - great column. Do you want an additional BF?
211
just because someone SAYS they are a christian, flies their christian banner and invokes the name of their lord, jesus christ,

DOES

NOT

MEAN

THEY

ARE

R E A L L Y

CHRISTIANS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

seriously. f'd up power hungry misanthropes use any excuse that works to justify their power. and what "source" of power could be more all-encompasing than the source of EVERYTHING!?!?

don't be blinded.

the historical person of jesus is believed by faithful and non-believers alike to have actually lived... and he said "you will know them by their fruits." matthew 7:16

if you aren't familiar with this bible passage, i suggest you google it... and you will find out what christianity ACTUALLY says about how you can tell a christian from "other people." (wink) this passage is what christians have been told by jesus himself about false prophets who are wolves in sheep's clothing, pretending to be christians while, all the while, sowing evil in the world.

if they were christians, they would speak compassionately to those they thought were lost.

just saying.
212
@151: Dude, midget is not the preferred nomenclature. Little person or person of short stature, please.
213
@209; IHSN

I will match that.

Any others?

Let's leave our intellectual Rubik's Cubes at the coffee shops..'kay?
214
I think we need to clear up the definition of Homophobia. Homo refers to an individual who is attracted to the same sex and Phobia is defined in the dictionary as "An irrational, intense, and persistent fear". Wiki explains Homophobia as "a range of negative attitudes and feelings towards lesbian, gay, bisexual, queer, and in some cases transgender and intersex people", no doubt in response to a certain fear, which is different for all haters. However, by definition, hating gay people for who they are because you were told they are wrong is blind and utter prejudice, not Homophobia, and not backed by any actual fact. It's really no different from someone who hates black people, or another who hates fat people. There are distinguishable facts to be considered.

Believing that gay marriage is wrong because it threatens family life is Homophobia. Believing that gay people are the cause of AIDS is Homophobia. Believing that the guy next door you slept with last night will turn you gay is Homophobia. This isn't in any actual response to anyone here, I just felt like that term is thrown around too lightly. Homophobia is an extreme, prejudice is what most people feel towards gay people.
215
@ 137: While i'm at it I might as well define what Religion means.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/r…

Read 2 and 3. Following a religion means you believe in the practices and morals of it's rules. I laugh out FUCKING loud at people who claim to be "non-practicing Christian" or any other religion. What is that suppose to mean? Ok, so you believe in God but you don't agree with Christianity...that is possible, but that also means you're not Christian, and claiming to be so is contradicting and hypocritical in your faith.

For this I turn to the definition of Agnosticism, which can be summed and stupefied into the following sentence: Someone who believes in the higher power but the inability to truly understand it. IE, they disagree with religion, but agree in the maker.
216
I've found that there's a large portion of the christian population that's simply hung up on semantics.

They can't get past the word marriage. It's defined in their head as one man one woman, and has connotations of the sacred and the church. It's been one of the basic assumptions of our culture for centuries.

Ask someone you know that is a christian and against gay marriage a simple question; should gays be allowed partnership rights in hospitals when one partner is sick or dying?

If they have a shred of human compassion, they will say of course. The ones that disagree are your tried and true bigots and may be safely clubbed.

Pretty much the same question can be phrased about every other aspect of civil rights in regard to marriage, e.i. inheritance, joint property, taxes, etc, with the same result.

I'm of the opinion that if they gay rights movement had started out demanding "partnership rights" or "civil unions" or really anything besides "gay marriage", it would have gotten national acceptance five or ten years ago.
217
I've found that there's a large portion of the christian population that's simply hung up on semantics.

They can't get past the word marriage. It's defined in their head as one man one woman, and has connotations of the sacred and the church. It's been one of the basic assumptions of our culture for centuries.

Ask someone you know that is a christian and against gay marriage a simple question; should gays be allowed partnership rights in hospitals when one partner is sick or dying?

If they have a shred of human compassion, they will say of course. The ones that disagree are your tried and true bigots and may be safely clubbed.

Pretty much the same question can be phrased about every other aspect of civil rights in regard to marriage, e.i. inheritance, joint property, taxes, etc, with the same result.

I'm of the opinion that if they gay rights movement had started out demanding "partnership rights" or "civil unions" or really anything besides "gay marriage", it would have gotten national acceptance five or ten years ago.
218
I fully agree purveyor of savage love. The writer of the letter may have aspirations to be a good christian soul but you have called them out on the reality of their world view and the kind of hatred it spawns.

They deny the right of other people to be different and equal.

With the arrogance of those that think fro their limited human perspective that they know best.

And yes that spawns the lack of empathy, the holstility and the murder. Ultimately thats what it does.

Cheers, A
219
Dan--Re: our old friend,the homosexual agenda. Where's my copy? I mailed you people the box tops!
220
Bravo Dan! I literally stood and cheered in my kitchen on reading your first reply. Saving it for not-too-distant future and sadly-all-too-frequent use. Very well said.

And moreover, it's not just the gay and lesbian children who suffer, but all children the self-roghteous bullies perceive as perhaps being gay or lesbian, or even just different enough in some other way (e.g. too weird, too fat, too smart, too agnostic/atheistic/Jewish etc.) to harass into suicidality. I've known plenty of them too.
221
Hey Kudos to Dan for his fight against bullying.
Will it have an effect on bullying?
Yes, for a while.
Until the backlash happens,
So much of what he said, like if you are against gay marriage, you are for bullying, or the unconscious cause of bullying, is just not true.

First, he seems just of guilty as his writer as turning people into abstracts. The children of Christians turn into hateful little monsters. ..
The gay teens who are innocent victims of that hate...
Are not many gays teens bullies themselves?
Are not many children of Christians victims of bullying?

And, when the furor settles down and people start to look around and realize that the modern view on homosexuality is based on a falsehood. That gay men and women are born that way. True that we are all born with basic instincts and in some people those instincts may lead to an attraction to the same sex. But gay identity, and gay activity and gay relationships are a combination of culture, social norms, upbringing, experience, etc. And of course this is true of everyone not just gay people. There really is no such thing as a gay person, just a person that has a certain pattern of behavior. Gay identity is a useful falsehood, but useful none the less.

The basic fact is that men and women are different, these differences are due to billions of years of evolution, and that only sex between a man and woman can make babies and perpetuate the human race. Which is no small feat.

And the fact that a relationship between two men or two women is just different than that between a man and a woman. Is the relationship less than, no. Most gay couples I know are stronger than the average heterosexual couple because the relationship is based solely on choice not on societal norms and on a personal affinity for each other, not as a basis for child rearing. Maybe they just realize they have to work on it harder. But I also know a lot of middle-aged gay men who have frequent anonymous sex with strangers and I am pretty sure that the average heterosexual man of the same age is not doing the same thing.

This whole thing of thinking that homosexuality is just about changing the pronoun, of changing 'he' to 'she' or vice versa, is just wrong. It is a lie.

That said, I am not against gay marriage. I think it is a useful experiment. But it won't change the face that marriage will always be traditionally between a man and a woman and the anything else will be an unusual alternative. I wish there was a way to recognize committed gay relationships without using the word "marriage" or 'husband' or 'wife.' we need a new word altogether. Some way to recognize gays unique contribution to civilization and to each other.

(Really it is marriage that is the problem. It should just be gotten rid of entirely. From now on marriage is forbidden to everyone...)

I wish there was a way to battle the intrinsic hate and homophobia of Christians without creating other falsehoods. Without having to call anyone who questions or does not support gay marriage a bigot. Maybe not. But I am 100% sure that kindness and compassion is ultimately the only solution.
222
(I didn't realize you had to register first to have your comments show up. Pardon for the duplication)
Hey Kudos to Dan for his fight against bullying. I really mean that
I really think it have an effect on bullying at least for a while.
Until the backlash happens.

So much of what he said, like if you are against gay marriage, you are for bullying, or the unconscious cause of bullying, is just not true. And unless something is true, ultimately it will not have a lasting effect.

First, he seems just of guilty as his writer as turning people into abstracts.
That children of Christians turn into hateful little monsters. ..
That gay teens who are innocent victims of that hate...
Are not many gays teens bullies themselves?
Are not many children of Christians victims of bullying?

And, when the furor around marriage and gay rights settles down, people start to look around and realize that the modern view on homosexuality is based on a falsehood: That gay men and women are born that way. True that we are all born with basic instincts and in some people those instincts may lead to an attraction to the same sex. But gay identity, gay activity, and gay relationships are a combination of instinct and culture, social norms, upbringing, and personal experience. Of course this is true of everyone not just gay people. There really is no such thing as a gay person, just a person that has a certain pattern of behavior. Gay identity is a useful falsehood, but useful none the less.

The basic fact is that men and women are different, these differences are due to billions of years of evolution. Only sex between a man and woman can make babies and perpetuate the human race. Which is no small feat.

And the fact that a relationship between two men or two women is just different than that between a man and a woman. Is the relationship less than, no. Most gay couples I know are stronger than the average heterosexual couple because the relationship is based solely on choice not on societal norms and on a personal affinity for each other, not as a basis for child rearing. Maybe they just realize they have to work on it harder. But I also know a lot of middle-aged gay men who have frequent anonymous sex with strangers and I am pretty sure that the average heterosexual man of the same age is not doing the same thing.

This whole thing of thinking that homosexuality is just about changing the pronoun, of changing 'he' to 'she' or vice versa, is just wrong. It is a lie.

That said, I am not against gay marriage. I think it is a useful experiment. But it won't change the face that marriage will always be traditionally between a man and a woman and that anything else will be an unusual alternative. I wish there was a way to recognize committed gay relationships without using the word "marriage" or 'husband' or 'wife.' we need a new word altogether. Some way to recognize gays unique contribution to civilization and to each other.

(Really it is marriage that is the problem. It should just be gotten rid of entirely. From now on marriage is forbidden to everyone...)

I wish there was a way to battle the hate and homophobia of Christians without creating other falsehoods. Without having to call anyone who questions or does not support gay marriage a bigot. Maybe not. But I am 100% sure that kindness and compassion is ultimately the only solution.
223
@BlackRose. I'm an atheist bleeding heart liberal and totally agree with you on a conceptual level.

However, it has been proven time and time again that Christians are more likely to give to charity and volunteer in international aid. Church donations from around the world have funded desperately needed hospitals and medical supplies in third world nations. For every gay teen who commits suicide from bullying, there are thousands of people in the world who are living and breathing only thanks to the tithe that Christians are obligated to give (10% of income).

Christians need to be more consistent with their so-called compassion, but I do think it's unfair to say there are no "good" Christians. I've met Christians up to their knees in sewage trying to build a plumbing system for a village dying of malaria and dysentery. They did not believe in marriage equality...but can we really say they are bad? Is it that black and white?

224
Gay as gay can be, but love to watch me some T-gurl porn. Fantasize about getting fucked by a chick-with-dick.
225
Dan, I'm frustrated because I reposted that letter yesterday on my FB page and now it's been deleted, but that's not your problem. It's Big Brother again..watching..anyway, In my post I asked that if somehow you had seen my letter, that I wish you would write that same (but even harsher) letter to Tom Prichard, the president of the Minnesota Family Council who for years has vilified the glbt community. He just oozes evil and sadly, years ago we used to be good friends.
I did appreciate what you said in response to the woman who was hurt by your words. I think I understood where she was coming from because I happen to be christian and also gay, but I've chosen to be involved in churches that are reconciled congregations who are welcoming of everyone including glbt individuals. Just to clarify, I think that there are Christian communities who truly do their best to act in a "christ-like" way and not let those in the upper hierarchy of the bigger church influence their individual churches. That being said, I think that too many people think that this is some sort of new phenomenon, this horrific bullying and suicides, but sadly it's been happening forever and sadly, what we see in the news is just the tip of the iceberg. I think a huge issue that stands before us is the government not realizing that "don't ask don't tell" really institutionalizes the mentality that gays can't be trusted, that we can't be in a locker room with another man without jumping their bones, that we aren't worthy enough to serve the country in this way. That lack of serious action on the part of this administration fuels the bullying and the whole "locker room" attitude. Bullying of our young people in schools and clubs completes it's circle in the military and in the government. And it will continue and continue.
Sad but true.
226
"Magic sky friend jesus cry..."
LOVE IT Savage! i'm totally stealing that one.
thank you.
227
@128- Capricorn44- Its interesting how people only hear half the message. "Love your neighbor as yourself" and the Prodigal son particularly. -You cant love your neighbor until you love yourself- if you hate yourself, that is what you will do to others. I heard a priest say "you and I arent the Prodigal Son. We arent that BAD. Jesus message was for two groups- the ones who were oppressed by hatred, and those doing the hating. For the second group, the model was the elder brother. He thought he was better than the younger brother. He therefore, exempted himself from the banquet, i.e. heavan, because he couldnt believe that his Father would except the outcast. There few calling themselves Christian who embrace this core message of the man they claim to follow- prefering to dwell on his martyrdom.
228
I fell out of my chair this morning with your response!!!! ROCK THE FUCK ON--- MY HERO:)
-SAVAGE LOVE
229
A Slam Poem---It gets Better ( Tera McIntosh)

Dear Tyler.
Nobody told you before…
but thing’s won’t always be so great
We’ve managed to abolish slavery----
but still harvest fresh grown hate
Right here in our own backyard, it exist
I just stepped on some right around the corner
And I am hoping with these words---
I might Weed out some of the rest…
because these shoes are tired--- of stepping in it.


It’s not always gonna be so great….
But don’t give up
-roll up your tolerant sleeves
And…..show your intellectual fists
flex the muscles of your mind
And beat them with proof and pride

Your stronger then the monsters of their mind
Don’t let them take you back to the underground hide yourself times
Full of pink triangles, labels, and separate lunch lines
Hang on Tyler, I promise
It gets better this time

Don’t feed societies dreams
Let who you are bust from your seams
On to others that love you just as you are
On to others that have hung pictures of you on
The walls of their hearts.


And for those others…the haterrrrs
Take their words and trap them in a jar
And make sure you tighten the lid
Because words can’t escape and sting you
If you don’t let them

And if that doesn’t work

Build a damn within your voice
that blocks the flooding emotions
From your mind to your heart
That makes you want to say I give up—
-cause enough is enough


Don’t give up ----even when enough has had
Enough of enough
And you feel like the weakest--- in the world of the tough
Take a breathe that starts from the heart of your heart
And remember how far you’ve come from the start
Of the start of who you really are now.


Don’t let them win
Fight hard—paper beats rock again and again.
Fight through the early cold morning why’s
And the late night solo questioning cries
And be you---let your rays shine through onto others
And soon you will be speaking
And educating kids who were just--------- like---- you.

And when night falls and you feel
Lost in the abnormal herd of different kind
Remember that in the early morning wake
You will still be everything you’ve always wanted to be
And that’s enough.

Don’t let people say we’re not the same
Because the last time I loved
I still loved as hard as they do
Harder then the square root of you
Harder then goodbye for the last time
Harder then jamming out in to my favorite rhyme
While the person over in the next lane
Just smiles at me and drives on thru.
Because she can’t tag my differences
From her sunglasses view.

And when they say we are just the same
Show them the holes in your socks
That have traveled the loneliest nights with you
Show them that you bleed and sneeze
You laugh and scream
And you love and dream
Dream that you’ll be treated the same
One day from someones heart of their heart.



Don’t let middle school whispers echo
Into the confined, conformed, lockers of your mind
and build up hallways of fear
that separate who you are and
who others want you to be.


And those words they say about you
Stack them up in a perfect row
And climb them one by one
And soon you will be standing at the top
Stronger then everyone below---
Because tough times--- make us grow---------------
As strong as the writings on the legal pad
Of our mind that spells out proudly—
WHO I AM IS FINE.

And remember
If I can stand here today, so can you.
It gets better---it did for me…
and it will for you.

Yours in Change,
Tera
230
I think Kurt Vonnegut said it best:

"She was a fool, and so am I, and so is anyone who thinks he sees what God is doing." (Cat's Cradle)
231
My magic sky friend can beat up your magic sky friend!
232
...Hate... @151

THIS is how parents are partially to blame for what their children think:

First, My Mommy and Daddy told me that “Everyone is not entitled to the same level of social acceptance”. This means that, because I don’t like you or “your kind”, I don’t have to talk to you or socialize with you or be near you in any way. So even though I am in school, and I am forced to coexist with you in the same social sphere for 6-8 hours a day, I have the right to completely ignore you and treat you like you don’t exist. Mommy and Daddy also told me to be courteous, so maybe I’ll smile when I do it.

Second, I cannot be rude to you or bully you so I cannot push you down a flight of stairs, but I also don’t have to see you as my equal because I am so much better than you. People are not all social equals and clearly you are a bad person, even if you still have the same rights. I will still smile at you though, even though I totally avoid the dregs of society (you) and only hang out with the socially superior people of “my own” group.

Third, many people say that the bible says that you should die for being who you are. My parents don’t like you; they have told me so. They don’t want me socializing with people like you. My church does not like you; it has told me so. It does not want me becoming a person like you. They say that I do not have to be next to people like you, but I am forced to when I am in school. School makes me do something my parents do not like. It makes me do something my church does not like. Why do they have to be in the same school as normal people? Mommy and Daddy say that I should not have to be in the same room as them, but they are already here; I don’t like that. I don’t like them.
Mommy and Daddy say that that is OK, as long as I don’t want them to die…
even though some people say that the bible does.

Thus, Mommy and Daddy say that I have to treat everyone equally.
Mommy and Daddy also say that you do not have to accept have to accept everyone, because not everyone is my social equal.
Why do they get the same things as I do when they are not the same as me? Why do they get the same things when they are not as good as me? Why do they get equal treatment when we are not equal?
I do not have to be their friend. Maybe if I ignore them and never be their friend or be friendly to them they will just go away.
Maybe they will feel that they should not be here,
at this school,
in this town,
on this earth
233
I'm adding my voice chorus - Dan, you are an articulate, inspiring, and passionate voice speaking out with morality and logic for all of us homos and queers. Thank you.
234
I think you and L.R. are talking past each other. I think you may both be right.

Among the panoply of gay issues, gay marriage in particular is complex. Historically, marriage is a religious concept. It gets complicated because both common law and statutory law have built both social and legal institutions around marriage, and in particular at times in history when marriage was commonly seen as a religious concept. This means we have a religious concept that has taken on legal dimensions, in spite of the First Amendment. In this context, it would appear that the legal dimensions may be unlawful under our Constitution. As such, DOMA can be seen as a preventative attempt to try to preserve the legal side from what may be an inevitable challenge. The irony is that rather than extending marriage to gays, such a challenge could destroy it for everyone. Hence, a reasonable approach would be to maintain marriage as beetween a man and a woman, and "reassemble" the legal institutions in a manner more consonant with the Constitution and in a way that extends equal rights to everyone--straight, gay, or whatever--without improperly infringing upon constitutionally protected religious rights.

Not all religious people oppose gay marriage. Not all gays support gay marriage--as one of my dear gay friends once said, "marriage is a straight thing." The proportions of each are probably irrelevant: reasonable and intelligent people have different views here. Athiests can support fundamentalists' views to protect a religious concept. Fundamentalists can support gays' access to non-religious social constructs. But the ignorant thing is for liberal gays to keep shoving it down the throats of people who believe it is an infringement upon their legitimate and legally protected beliefs, claiming it as a "right," rather than forging a solution that preserves everyone's rights.

And it is clear to most of your readers that you are not an independent-minded voter, with repeated suggestions that conservative politicians are categorically the enemy of your social objectives for our society, accompanied by attacks on Republican (but not Democrat) politicians who promote actively policies you think may be opposed to your own interests. This implies that you, like most people at the HRC National Celebration last week who applauded guest speaker Valerie Jarrett, blindly support Democrats in a world where Log Cabin Republicans worked to throw out DADT and the Democrat administration--led by a president on the record as opposing gay marriage--is appealing it. The reality is that the politics are just as complex--many Republicans, even conservative ones, support gay rights and many Democrats, even liberal ones, oppose them. Moreover, you should join some Republican gays that are open to the possibility that Democrats merely pander to the gay community without action or solutions, while Republicans may be the best hope for finding a constitutional and practical way to get gays the equality they deserve.
235
I think you and L.R. are talking past each other. I think you may both be right.

Among the panoply of gay issues, gay marriage in particular is complex. Historically, marriage is a religious concept. It gets complicated because both common law and statutory law have built both social and legal institutions around marriage, and in particular at times in history when marriage was commonly seen as a religious concept. This means we have a religious concept that has taken on legal dimensions, in spite of the First Amendment. In this context, it would appear that the legal dimensions may be unlawful under our Constitution. As such, DOMA can be seen as a preventative attempt to try to preserve the legal side from what may be an inevitable challenge. The irony is that rather than extending marriage to gays, such a challenge could destroy it for everyone. Hence, a reasonable approach would be to maintain marriage as beetween a man and a woman, and "reassemble" the legal institutions in a manner more consonant with the Constitution and in a way that extends equal rights to everyone--straight, gay, or whatever--without improperly infringing upon constitutionally protected religious rights.

Not all religious people oppose gay marriage. Not all gays support gay marriage--as one of my dear gay friends once said, "marriage is a straight thing." The proportions of each are probably irrelevant: reasonable and intelligent people have different views here. Athiests can support fundamentalists' views to protect a religious concept. Fundamentalists can support gays' access to non-religious social constructs. But the ignorant thing is for liberal gays to keep shoving it down the throats of people who believe it is an infringement upon their legitimate and legally protected beliefs, claiming it as a "right," rather than forging a solution that preserves everyone's rights.

And it is clear to most of your readers that you are not an independent-minded voter, with repeated suggestions that conservative politicians are categorically the enemy of your social objectives for our society, accompanied by attacks on Republican (but not Democrat) politicians who promote actively policies you think may be opposed to your own interests. This implies that you, like most people at the HRC National Celebration last week who applauded guest speaker Valerie Jarrett, blindly support Democrats in a world where Log Cabin Republicans worked to throw out DADT and the Democrat administration--led by a president on the record as opposing gay marriage--is appealing it. The reality is that the politics are just as complex--many Republicans, even conservative ones, support gay rights and many Democrats, even liberal ones, oppose them. Moreover, you should join some Republican gays that are open to the possibility that Democrats merely pander to the gay community without action or solutions, while Republicans may be the best hope for finding a constitutional and practical way to get gays the equality they deserve.
236
Dan's nailed it. These kind folk want to believe they are good people because they don't promote hate. Problem is they promote hate and bullying silently with their silence. Christian kids get the hate messages even without their parents being the delivery persons.

Dan's words are so fun to read, but don't just read what Dan says, reach out and volunteer with school kids. If you don't, some Christan mom, with an empty nest and closed mind is gonna be volunteering without anyone to keep her in check.
237
@ 196: Stonehammer, whoever you are, I love you.
238
"magic sky friend"

heh, heh. That's my new favorite.

@196 I, too, love you.
239
Vomit. I find your response hateful. Stop trying to make christians change their beliefs. Just because someone doesn't believe in gay marriage, or has their views on homosexuality does in no way shape or form mean they engage in the acts you refer to in your response - Talk about hate. Wow. Just like you or anyone else has the right not believe in someones religion or lifestyle or have views on someones choices or opinions doesn't automatically mean they spew dehumanizing words or spread hate and essentially degrade someones self worth because of it. Come on- The whole response was COMICALLY hypocritical. You want to spread love ? Try using a different tactic..The bitterness and rage isn't working. And I'm sorry that in your experience every Christian has been as evil as you describe them. Thats sad.
240
Why do you only focus on the gay boys who have committed suicide recently? Do the lesbians not count? Typical gay male narcissism I suppose.
www.queerty.com/suicide-lesbian-howard-u…;;
241
has anyone forgotten that teens have been committing suicide for a long time now, regardless of sexual orientation ! society really sucks sometimes
242
@239 - There was a time when people "just agreed with slavery" or "just thought whites were better than blacks, that's all."

My parents are nice as pie to every black person they meet. But as soon as we were home it was "nigger this, nigger that."

Dan is angry; YOU are hateful. Your bible tells you so.
243
Ok … we are off on another tangent again and off the subject. KIDS DYING! All most of us do is sit back and blame the other guy. I am not defending the religious bigots by any means. I am saying look in the mirror first. When was the last time you saw a queeny guy walking and shrugged in disgust mumbling “lil fag” or saw a young girl with short hair and denims and thought “dyke” ??? The anti-gay movement wins every time you do that. Until the gay community unites and stops arguing semantics more Kids and adults will die … and if you aren’t doing something positive to help… you are just as guilty of murder as their church and parents.
There are several ‘online’ groups trying to help. We used to have a worldwide voice of gays in MCC which has been mysteriously silent recently. Groups like the Trevor Project and the Matthew Sheppard Foundation are trying to reach out but are limited by finances and overall lack of support from the gay community. I got involved more than 20 years ago when I took in a young guy who had been abandoned by his ‘christian’ parents. This problem is not new just more open. He and I tried to start something then to help but met more resistance than you can imagine, mostly from our own community. “I can’t come out now” “I can’t be bothered now” “it’s not my problem” Ever say that? If so.. You contributed to a death. Sound harsh? Think about the kids that die. So far … 2 out of over 200 have made any type of effort to help. Not a very good average but typical. And that is why we are losing to them.
244
Let us point out that North America, Christianity is THE religion. Yes, there are other religions out there, but they are in the minority. What does this mean? Christians don't need a pat on the back for being tolerant, anymore than white males need a pat on the back for being supportive of gender and racial equality despite their white maleness (and I'm a white male). It's just common decency, and just because a large chunk of your group doesn't believe in it doesn't mean you deserve a cookie for embracing the rest of the human race. Christians have the most power and influence. They have the most numbers. I think most everyone knows and accepts that not all Christians are raving lunatic bigots, because that would mean that a huge portion of Americans are raving lunatic bigots (and I certainly hope that isn't the case). Christianity doesn't need to be DEFENDED, let alone by the people it persecutes, because the majority of society looks approvingly on Christianity, to the point that atheist political candidates are in deep trouble. Christianity is the accepted norm - it needs no particular defense given to it. The whole idea that it does smacks of the evangelical delusion that Christians are a persecuted minority today just as they were during the early days of Romans and lions.

People like LR seem to believe that by denying gay people human rights, but drawing the line at stoning them or other violence, they are not bigots. Let us get this straight: If you believe in denying someone human rights, you are saying they are less deserving somehow - implicitly, that they are less human than those who deserve the rights. You can say you hate the sin and not the sinner, but no matter how you phrase it, you are still saying "this person deserves less than me unless they become like me, thus more human/good/sinless/whatever."

If you believe that all people are sinners and gayness is just another sin, you are still putting it in a special "more eviler" category by denying gay people the right to marry - what other groups are you denying the right to marry based on sin quotient? Shouldn't adulterers (which, by the old biblical definition, includes anyone who had sex before marriage) also be denied the right to marry? Shouldn't people who have lust in their heart be denied the right to marry? Atheists and other heretics? People like LR love to point out that we're all sinners, but they still have a special kind of judgment reserved for gay people that allows them the excuse to deny a right which they tend to believe all other human beings deserve, regardless of the variety of sin.

And to the "good Christians" who do believe in gay marriage and whine that they still don't get enough credit - what have you actually done? Do you just write in to whine at Dan because it's safe, anonymous and he can't excommunicate you? Or do you actually speak out where it matters - at the bigots in your own community who you say give you a bad name? You complain that it's just the vocal minority making you look bad - how come more of you aren't being vocal within your own religion, letting it know you aren't interested in a religion of hate? Kudos to the Quaker whose group isn't performing marriages anymore. But to the person who said peace and tolerance just isn't as vocal - right, I suggest you look into MLK and Gandhi. It's not that peace and tolerance can't be more visible. It's that you are CHOOSING not to make waves in your own community.
245
Interesting debate . . . 223 you rock! But I must say that my gut reaction was the same as Comment 40 so, well, so long (and I say that with sadness as I've been a long time reader).
246
Your response to LR was absolutely correct.

To quote a fellow Episcopalian, " 'I am a Christian' has been stolen from us and turned into some sort of media-driven political, judgmental statement. I am proud that in [the Episcopal Church] 'I am a Christian' means 'I am trying to be a follower of Jesus Christ,' and is supported by inclusive liturgy, discernment, and thoughtful spiritual reflection."

No organization, church or otherwise, that preaches bigotry or second-class citizenship for anyone, anywhere (whether or not based on Old Testament law, which incidentally many Christians understand as having been drastically amended if not mostly abrogated by the subsequent arrival of Jesus) can be remotely "Christian" in the sense of following the teachings of Jesus.

It is time to take the word "Christian" back from the hands of hate-mongering, small-minded, right-wing closet cases, though I have to admit I'm at a loss as to how to do it. Perhaps other readers might have some creative ideas?
247
Rock on, Dan Savage!!! That was such a kick-ass response to the first letter. You are the MAN!!
248
dood, your response to L.R. was poignant and beautifully crafted. Thank you for being a solid, stand-up human.
249
My ex wasnt attracted to transsexual, he dated me and I am a pre op transsexual, he wasnt interested in whats between my legs, we had anal sex and he is always the one who is doing the penetration, but he did start watching limited transsexual porn because he got more comfortable with the idea of a girl with a shenis.

So yeah, you can be a striaght man and watch some tranny porn, but not exclusively, and not mainly.
250
I wonder why nobody, in these discussions of the New Testament, ever mentions the fellow who describes himself as "the disciple that Jesus loved"?
251
All the adult 30-40 something religious people I know (including SDA,Catholic, Mormon, JW,Baptist, ISKON, Muslim, Wiccan and New Agey whatever) all share a viscous, hateful, potentially murderous view of everyone who doesn't share their insane psycho-social-religious view of the universe. The single biggest indicator of teen-age suicide is being deviant from the insanity of the social context they've been born and raised into. No end in site so far as I can see.
252
I am so sick of judgmental Christians who think they can teach their kids to judge others but are not supporting bigotry and bullying. Dan is absolutely right. They give license to their kids, and many others, to bully and persecute. They sit by while religious leaders spew strident, hateful, judgmental bile – but play innocent when tragedy ensues. Where is the outrage for all the Christian sponsored hate speech? If Jesus is love, start walking the walk! Meanwhile, the bible is NOT the law of the land - the constitution is. If you don't believe in the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, go to Iran (and take Scalia and Thomas with you)!
253
I am so sick of judgmental Christians who think they can teach their kids to judge others but are not supporting bigotry and bullying. Dan is absolutely right. They give license to their kids, and many others, to bully and persecute. They sit by while religious leaders spew strident, hateful, judgmental bile – but play innocent when tragedy ensues. Where is the outrage for all the Christian sponsored hate speech? If Jesus is love, start walking the walk! Meanwhile, the bible is NOT the law of the land - the constitution is. If you don't believe in the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, go to Iran (and take Scalia and Thomas with you)!
254
How is it in the fact that God has been removed from the relevance of society how many years ago and you say "God damn that God He kills gay children". Well, for those who remember what the world used to be like and know that it is now "unlike" the way it used to be, that it is not God who throws gay children to lions by the light of the silvery moon, but as much more to the very lack of him. I well know you don't want to mistake Christ with good and love, but don't mistake this current world that has taken God out of the world as it has, as a world of good and love either. The world is as mean as it is, not just by the influences of Christ alone, but by the outright actions of the people of this modern world. The world should never have been run the was it had always been run and now still is, but it does and it always has run itself in such a way, and just as now, it should never had been run like it is and always has been run. Don't blame God for your problems. You all brought such things on your own selves by own free decisions and actions.
255
You know what? Christians (and Muslims and Jews too) need to quit confusing the means (books of mystical history and ethnic egomania) over the end: the intentions of their creator.

In other words, quit worshiping a book over your actual god.

The real scripture is all around to see: the universe. This makes scientists the real theologians.

Biblical text,written in fallible human language can in no way be a god's word. It is entirely human. And primarily a tool of control and manipulation by the controlling and the greedy. And no, the book itself saying it's god's word doesn't count. Creation gave you that logical brain, use it!

You can look for human wisdom and some poetically inspiring passages in many books. Just stop sinning against commandment #1 by putting any one of them above your deity.

Once you get past the obsession with some book, the whole of creation is out there. Just be careful not to confuse the wind as the whisper of divinity.
256
#255 addendum:

Accidentally deleted thread-relevant text:

People who believe in god can find reasons to be decent,tolerant, accepting, rational souls without having a book to thump, or some preachers telling them what human words mean, or who deserves their hate today.

I happen to be an atheist, but even the dimmest god believer has to see that any hands in the mix must be yours. First order of business for "good" Xtians is to clean up your houses. DTMF bigoted from control of your message.
257
Any Christian or any other theist who wants to engage in blaming the victims rather than society for wringing their hands and failing to intervene and protect them when they had the chance, and the bullies for oppressing them: as far as I'm concerned, those kids are better off, if they're away from self-important jerks like you. You're exactly what Savage was railing against. I hope your fatal pomposity that takes the lives of children like those away pleases you, if you can pretend to hide behind your god! If only everyone was just like you, there would never be any problems!

Get this: there will always be difference. The problem with Christianity and many other religions is that they try to eliminate difference. You CAN'T. It is physically impossible to make everyone the same, to try to make everyone conform to your impossible and moronic ideals, especially when said people bring others NO HARM whatsoever. I quit Christianity because I no longer wanted to be associated with a movement far less concerned with kindness and charity than being a busybody and absolute conformity. I didn't find difference threatening, but the utmost nature of Christianity and religion in general is about erasing difference, valuing the physically strong and hardhearted over the weak and the sensitive, and respecting tradition at all costs. I fail to see any bravery or "holiness" inherent in running scared of the powerful and in preventing any change to the status quo. I see no good in punishing others for what they were born as and can't help being.

Rather than ask gay people why they can't be like you, you should ask yourself why you need everyone else to be like you and to see your perspective on things. Why are you so threatened by difference? Why are the children and adults of society so obsessed with sameness and the status quo? Ask yourselves that before you lecture others on who is at fault for failure to save those who are weak and vulnerable from the oppressive intolerance of others. Ask yourself, not if that gays and others fail to meet your ideals, if they are weak, but why you're such a weak-willed coward for caring so much for "order" and the oppressors than for the victims. Ask yourself why you'd rather blame the rape victim than punish the rapist. Ask yourself why your god apparently cares that things continue on as they do, and demands that anyone different in any way conforms as much as humanly possible or face punishment, than asks for kindness and open-mindedness from the majority. Ask yourself whether this is a "god" at all, or a simple projection of your own small-mindedness and stupidity. Which is more "godly," a world where these kids would've been allowed to have been left alone and to live happy lives, or the world we live in now, where they died of despair, and all you will do is make excuses for those who drove them to that point? And then, ask if you're really proud of yourself. I'm an "evil" atheist, and I know that I was bullied in school for being a nerd; everyone else I saw bullied, I defended them. I didn't need the excuse of "Christ" to know that bullying was wrong. I stayed around, even after all indications that no one who mattered was really going to care, because I genuinely believe that something has to get better. I didn't have a big church community to "support" me and hide behind who would've just blamed me for being weird. Ask yourself what the kids did to deserve to be bullied or beaten up every day, since you say that they brought the "problem on themselves?" Ask yourself what Clementi did to have his privacy violated and broadcast on the Internet because his roommate was a complete asshole? What does that mean? So if a boy is a little waifish or has a girly-sounding voice, he brought that on himself? You have any idea how stupid and self-serving that sounds?

You live with your words.
258
Any Christian or any other theist who wants to engage in blaming the victims rather than society for wringing their hands and failing to intervene and protect them when they had the chance, and the bullies for oppressing them: as far as I'm concerned, those kids are better off, if they're away from self-important jerks like you. You're exactly what Savage was railing against. I hope your fatal pomposity that takes the lives of children like those away pleases you, if you can pretend to hide behind your god! If only everyone was just like you, there would never be any problems!

Get this: there will always be difference. The problem with Christianity and many other religions is that they try to eliminate difference. You CAN'T. It is physically impossible to make everyone the same, to try to make everyone conform to your impossible and moronic ideals, especially when said people bring others NO HARM whatsoever. I quit Christianity because I no longer wanted to be associated with a movement far less concerned with kindness and charity than being a busybody and absolute conformity. I didn't find difference threatening, but the utmost nature of Christianity and religion in general is about erasing difference, valuing the physically strong and hardhearted over the weak and the sensitive, and respecting tradition at all costs. I fail to see any bravery or "holiness" inherent in running scared of the powerful and in preventing any change to the status quo. I see no good in punishing others for what they were born as and can't help being.

Rather than ask gay people why they can't be like you, you should ask yourself why you need everyone else to be like you and to see your perspective on things. Why are you so threatened by difference? Why are the children and adults of society so obsessed with sameness and the status quo? Ask yourselves that before you lecture others on who is at fault for failure to save those who are weak and vulnerable from the oppressive intolerance of others. Ask yourself, not if that gays and others fail to meet your ideals, if they are weak, but why you're such a weak-willed coward for caring so much for "order" and the oppressors than for the victims. Ask yourself why you'd rather blame the rape victim than punish the rapist. Ask yourself why your god apparently cares that things continue on as they do, and demands that anyone different in any way conforms as much as humanly possible or face punishment, than asks for kindness and open-mindedness from the majority. Ask yourself whether this is a "god" at all, or a simple projection of your own small-mindedness and stupidity. Which is more "godly," a world where these kids would've been allowed to have been left alone and to live happy lives, or the world we live in now, where they died of despair, and all you will do is make excuses for those who drove them to that point? And then, ask if you're really proud of yourself. I'm an "evil" atheist, and I know that I was bullied in school for being a nerd; everyone else I saw bullied, I defended them. I didn't need the excuse of "Christ" to know that bullying was wrong. I stayed around, even after all indications that no one who mattered was really going to care, because I genuinely believe that something has to get better. I didn't have a big church community to "support" me and hide behind who would've just blamed me for being weird. Ask yourself what the kids did to deserve to be bullied or beaten up every day, since you say that they brought the "problem on themselves?" Ask yourself what Clementi did to have his privacy violated and broadcast on the Internet because his roommate was a complete asshole? What does that mean? So if a boy is a little waifish or has a girly-sounding voice, he brought that on himself? You have any idea how stupid and self-serving that sounds?

You live with your words.
259
@175 " Ignorance and cruelty feed bigotry, not religion."
But don't you see, religion is organized and society approved "Ignorance and cruelty"
260
Wonderful column Dan that speaks to the heart of the attitudes that create the conditions for hate.

@36 I found myself pondering why the activism of churchs like the UCC, Quakers, and UU's, that are working to help the LGBT community gain equality, have not been given much media attention and have therefore not been able to make much headway on countering the public image of "Christians" or even been given space as participants in public debate over the matter. In Texas they tried (and failed) to have UU declared a cult instead of a religion, and there was a call from Beck to leave progressive churchs... so the only media acknowledgment of progressive christian churches is passive and negative and does not give them a voice in the debate.
261
Dan, saw your video on " IT GETS BETTER" campaign, CONGRATS and thank you!

I was Disappointed with your comments on how you met your lover... BETTER TO EAT YOU WITH??? - I think it's great that you adopted a child and have loving family that supports you. BUt is this something you would tell YOUR child... how you met? LEt's be positive role models...... but I believe you need to EDit yourself on a PSA.

It just seems like the gay world is always getting bad wrap, that are sexual perverts. GEE how romantic, Now i guess you won't answer this without your typical FUCK YOU comment.....why, because you can.

HEY I'm a big fan of yours........ Really Disappointed with that comment- Nothing " CHEESY " about it at all. Just what the worlds wants to hear!
262
Dear Mr. Savage,

Thank you for the reply you gave to L.R.'s concerns.

Warmest regards,
Elena
263
@23 - I am a Christian who is well aware of history. My church stood up against slavery, marched with civil rights protesters in the 60s, and has ordained openly gay clergy. It is astoundingly ignorant to paint all people of faith with one brush. But then, you're probably one of those bigoted ignoramuses who thinks all people who practice Islam are terrorists. What are you doing reading Savage Love? Wouldn't your time be better spent listening to Bill O' Reilly and Fox News?
264
Were is itgetsbetter.com or itgetsbetter.org ????
bumper stickers..... banners..... stickers.... buttons.... logo shirts ????
265
If you don't like Dan's answer, what the fuck are you doing reading a column about fucking, ass fucking and fist fucking and cum drinking fucking column. There is no place for religious fuckers in this column. You are all responsible for 2000 years of cruelty and backwardness. There is no good Xtian just like there is no good Facist or good Wife beater or good serial killer. I am fucking done with being nice to all these comemierdas that are slaves to gaseous creatures in the sky and expect others to respect their deities. Fuck them and their goatfucking deities. If they want to be respected they need to learn to practice their metaphysical rape in the privacy of their tax free places of worship and leave the rest of us, happy and honest sinners in fucking peace. This week answer was the answer to end all answers, bravo querido Dan. And for with the bigoted, bad and stupid followers of these tax free institutions, we should democratically impose a tax, a sin tax for every time they open ther dirty, infected mouthes to vomit their cruel, horrific lies, just like we tax tobacco to prevent people from breathing its toxic smoke. We "sinners" should also demand from politicians that they stop being the bootlickers of these blood drinkers and flesh chewers and start respecting true human rights and fair justice. The Left and the Right have for too long being the hungry lickers of every santorum that drops from the church ass, its fucking time that they stop. Que se vayan pa la mierda!
Eddie el Cubano Pecador
266
Yeah! Save Gay Teens! Fuck all the other kids that kill themselves because they are teased and bullied and generally tortured!
267
In the DFW area Youth First Texas is an organization for GLBTQ teens. I'm sure that other, similar organizations exist, and I hope that teens who need information or help will contact them. My parish, Transfiguration Episcopal, donates the proceeds from our Maundy Thursday Soup Supper to Youth First Texas.
268
@241. Yes teenagers have been killing themselves regardless of sexual orientation for years. However, LGBT youth are 4 times more likely to commit suicide than their straight counterparts.
269
Don't give them ideas Mr. Savage. I'm fairly sure a "end atheist marriage" movement could gain some steam in places like Texas and South Carolina.
270
I read this article about a year ago, i believe it was in time magazine? It had to do with racism, which applies to so much more! What I pulled from it, is that by not speaking about things before they happen, you perpetuate that very thing.
271
@266

50% of an average student population experiences bullying at least once a month. Only 10% of children experience persistent bullying.
For LGBT youth, the numbers are different.
80% are harassed for their sexual orientation and the majority of these children experience frequent victimization.
What's more, even though 91% of the average student population report hearing repeated slurs based on sexual orientation, teachers are found to intervene only 3% of the time.
Bullying is never right, and it is not about stopping the harassment of one kid at the expense of another, it's about supporting a grossly under served group. When gay kids are harassed more often than straight kids, with greater severity than straight kids, and receive help from adults less often than straight kids, there is little wonder that LGBT youth are 4 times more likely than their straight peers to commit suicide as a result of this harassment.
We are clearly doing something very, very wrong.
272
Dear L.R.:

Your bible is full of some pretty horrific statements saying we're abominations of nature, that what we do (in other words, the way we love) is unnatural, that we should be put to death, etc., and if you're going to play the victim because we dared to call your religion out on it, keep in mind that book is nearly two thousand years old. It disrespected us first, and has done so for centuries. Boo hoo, we finally are now send the sentiment back in your direction. Boo fucking hoo. Deal with it.

You're choosing to believe in it, the writers of it chose to hate on us, but we didn't choose to be who we are because that's our nature. If man-made is the opposite of natural, then our hatred, which you choose and you make, is what's unnatural, not our "lifestyle" of loving one another.

If anything... why, that's rather Christ-like of us to love one another in a way that's so powerful it bursts through boundaries, now isn't it? Why yes... yes it is.
273
I love the project. It's just what many teens need, gay or straight.
274
"Bob," Christians really piss me off, pretty much on a daily basis. Kids getting beat up and harassed to death, and Christians come in with their make-believe stories about their little make-believe pokemon Jesus who has all the traits they love most. Yet I look in the bible, and he sure as fuck doesn't live in there. Makes you wonder if these sanctimonious Everybody Lovers have ever read the end of their fucking stupid book. For fuck's sake, Jesus has seven fucking eyes and seven fucking horns and a half-gashed-out neck, and then he's riding around on a horse slashing people to bits with his mouth-sword, and then he's getting all these people stuffed into a winepress and cruelly crushes them until their eyes pop out and their bones crack and they're reduced to pulp that pours out into the streets and makes the ground flood with three or so feet of blood.

Dudes--if you ignore the end of the book, then I can ignore everything else. You tell me it's metaphor, so I JUDGE the moral lessons within those metaphors. The metaphors, the teachings of Jesus ARE NOT GOOD. They are BLOODY and CRUEL and CULT-CRAZY. As I like to say, "the bible's teachings on childcare are summed up thusly: beat 'em, sell 'em, rape 'em then eat 'em."

Thing is, Oh you More Liberal Than Thou Peaceful Christians, when you sign up to be part of this group, you endorse your fucking book. How is anyone supposed to know which part you trash and which part you like? The part where the biggest moral lesson of all is Absolute Obedience? Or is it the sex part. Ohhhh, no ya don't. You can't divorce Jesus from the hatred of sex. Or anything else in your book. He said he follows The Law, Every Jot and Tittle. That includes those silly ceremonial laws about "things" like "unclean menstruating women," killing people who work on Saturday, killing children who mouth off or don't obey absolutely, and killing people who fuck wrong. And I know YOU don't fuck right. But hey--YOU guys are the ones who like to say we're all sinners who deserve to die.
275
It really is unfair to pillory an entire collective of people because they are united in the Lord they've elected to submit; but read and live the gospel with different elucidations of the truth that it imports. (I somehow doubt that you'd invoke the same words with a Muslim..."their invisible friend in the sky..."...remember, it's Hamas executing homosexuals for being gay in Gaza -Israeli's have lesbians for generals...and it was the electorate of Oakland and Richmond, California that invoked that reprobate measure as a prohibition on gay unions -Black Baptists....but, myself being an Irish-Catholic heterosexual male from a slum in West Belfast who is so grateful each morning to buy his NY Times at a shop only four blocks from Castro Street, get his espresso from Ethiopian transplants on Haight Street, kiss his wife while sharing a meal with their gay flatmate, get "recovery" from his gay AA sponsor, and attend mass at Most Holy Redeemer at Diamond Street [where at least two-thirds of the congregants are old chatty queers who i am amazed stop talking to hear the homily...]..I'm your "bad-guy", right? ...Sometimes "knee-jerk liberalism" costs lives; do you really think that the only people who bully gays and lesbians are Evangelical Christians? Why is it we live in culture that lends "shades of grey" to Islamic terrorists, but not to Christian believers? No one should be bullied at school...And I do believe that a greater onus falls upon Christians that prey upon gays in any capacity because they've missed the whole point of charity and love...Why is homophobia in the Black and Muslim community acceptable to "the left"? (frankly, is that why AIDS and HIV are so much more prevalent in the Black and Muslim community...it's not IV needle use...in my career as an addict, and then working in recovery in Portland and San Francisco I have met five Heroin/Meth addicts that were black; and it is impossible for a woman to transmit HIV to a man in intercourse [men give women AIDS, men give men AIDS, but women can not spread AIDS due to sexual contact.]; oh, and articles in the NY Times and Washington Post from 2006 support this claim -that black men are becoming infected due to unprotected sex with other men in "lock-up", and then when released from prison/jail disseminate the worst slurs and behaviour towards homosexuals...but that's ok, according to the left.)...and there is the spread of HIV across Africa...
My point though is this- you would tell me that is unfair to characterise all Blacks and Muslims as being "misoandrophilia" (I don't think "homophobia" is correct because there are people who do hate gays, so i think it's wrong to imply fear or misunderstanding...)...but if you're a white-follower of Christ, then you're the bastard of the greatest nadir...

-A Born Again-Catholic Believer who keeps his gay friends much closer than anyone invoking anathema and contempt and has eschewed himself from any communion that doesn't insist her congregants offer love to everyone.
276
I love you Dan Savage!! OMG your response to L.R. is amazing, I couldn't have said it better myself. I especially love the "magic sky friend Jesus" remark, fucking brilliant. Keep doing what you're doing, the "It Gets Better" campaign is a great idea.
277
You say it gets better but there is no ENDA or protections against bullying on the job. I was enticed into a demotion to avoid humiliation and bullying on the job. The feelings are the same as rape. Especially when you are intimidated by speech and attitudes so as to remain silent about who you are on the job. When a screaming queen quipped we need no protections with quotas because we are already there I think we do not even support ourselves and sell ourselves out.
278
Ugh, I hate the fact that being Catholic means I'm stuck with the Original Sin of being one of the first religions to use our Bible to facilitate hate.

Yes, that's exactly what it is. Love thy neighbour all you want, but when a catholic turns to me and says that gays are evil, and they'll go to hell, and blah blah blah, all I can reply with is "Judge not, lest ye be judged."

God's business isn't in the bedrooms of the consenting adults of the nation, to paraphrase a Canadian Politician.
279
Hi Dan,

Wish you would stop ranting about It Gets Better and return back to picking apart and answering peoples sexual questions.
280
246 got it right!

Christians who are not for discrimination against glbt people should reclaim the Christian dialog. Make it clear that you are not on the side of the very-vocal very-hateful most-visible Christians on this issue. Rescue "Christianity" so it doesn't sink on the wrong side of this major civil-rights issue.

Tell other Christians you know! Tell people of other religions and non-religious people. A lot of them will be very pleasantly surprised. After this comments section, I as an indifferent agnostic am thinking "fuck yeah, Episcopalians and Quakers!"
281
It has been my personal experience that when someone proclaims to be a "good christian," you need to run away from them just as fast and far away as you can. (Or they take advantage of you or rob you anyway they can.)

A truly good person doesn't feel the need to tell you how good they are.
282
It has been my personal experience that when someone proclaims to be a "good christian," you need to run away from them just as fast and far away as you can. (Or they take advantage of you and rob you anyway they can.)

A truly good person doesn't feel the need to tell you how good they are.
283
I'm not sure of the protocol involved in commenting on an individual post when you're already many posts past it, but I wanted to address the comment (I believe it was andy k.) about the only Christians who hate gays being evangelical Christians.

It may be a question of where you were raised; but where I come from, the only people who called themselves Christian, rather than a specific denomination, WERE evangelical, or born again Christians. Otherwise, people would say they were Catholic or Protestant, and if Protestant, they would mention the denomination; Lutheran, Episcopalian, etc. Although all of these religions are technically Christian, no one I'd ever known just used the generic term of Christian.

I was born and raised Catholic, in Brooklyn, at a time when Brooklyn was the city of churches, many of which were Catholic, with matching elementary schools. My day to day existence was Catholic; yet my house backed up to a girl's yeshiva; and my idea of comfort food was a Hebrew National hot dog and sauerkraut and a potato knish. It was all fine, none of us were troubled with ideas of converting the others. If my neighbors turned Catholic, then their stores would be closed on Sundays too. What a blessing, when Christmas Eve fell on a Sunday, to be able to traipse to 13th Avenue, and revel in the luxurious feeling of doing something illicit.

It occurs to me now that Christmas Eve couldn't have fallen on too many Sundays in my youth, but that was how I perceived it.

We sang "They Shall Know We are Christians By Our Love," so we did know we were Christians; but as far as identifying ourselves as such; I would no sooner identify myself as a Christian, than I would an Existentialist Buddhist, if such a things exists.

The one exception was when we would describe something as the chrisian thing to do. The small "c" was not an indication of ignorance, but rather because this behavior was not limited to a specific religion or denomination. Rather, it pointed more to a way of treating others that stressed kindness and compassion; a sort of moral high road. Now,of course, this would be considered as slighting other religions, but it wasn't meant as such. It could equally have been thought of as being a good Jew or Baptist or Buddhist, or just a good human being; and a positive reflection of whatever you believed in; even if it was the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Lately, though, christian or Christian is evoking an image of something else entirely. Seventeenth century Salem, Massachusetts is one thing that comes to mind.

If we're looking at kindness and tolerance towards others as a benchmark for identifying Christians, then I think quite a few of them must have gone into witness protection. In too many places, there are none to be found.
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Everyone: please read Marci Macdonald's The Armageddon Factor, detailing how the Canadian and American religious right-wing are intentionally acting to "be wise as serpents and harmless as doves" (Preston Manning, former head of Canada's Reform Party, and guide to PM Harper, p.108). Is guile the way? People practising love with guile sit on their hands and teach their kids to sit back and do nothing, say nothing, and turn away. And then beg forgiveness for their sin afterwards. I get tired of Christians using their being forgiven as justification for sinning. That doesn't bring a dead boy back.
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Marci Macdonald's The Armageddon Factor details how the Canadian and American religious right-wing are intentionally acting to "be wise as serpents and harmless as doves" (Preston Manning, former head of Canada's Reform Party, and guide to PM Harper, p.108). Is guile the way? People practicing love with guile sit on their hands and teach their kids to sit back and do nothing, say nothing, and turn away. And then beg forgiveness for their sin afterwards. I get tired of Christians using their being forgiven as justification for sinning even more. That doesn't bring a dead boy back.
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OMG I am so glad you didn't pussy foot around with the Jesus holier than thou L.R.

I live in the bible belt, I get counseling to deal with my anger at the two faced, forked tongued nonsense that comes from these "conservatives". Most "Christians" hang Christ on the cross daily. Christ kept saying, love and forgive, I say stop drop the stones L.R.!!! Hate in your heart kills the gay christ.
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I just heard the "It Gets Better" campaign mentioned on Larry King. Last week there were a few interviews on CNN where it was brought up. This campaign is really getting some attention.
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Dan, for the most part I agree and find great entertainment with most of your rants and raves. But regarding people of faith with their stance against gay marriage as perpetrators of violence against young homosexuals in schools is just wrong. I for one was brought up in a VERY conservative household, went to Catholic church every Sunday and heard my mother and religious educators tell me that homosexuality was against the church's beliefs. But you know what?! I HAVE MY OWN BRAIN!!! I decided MYSELF that I don't believe what they do. Gay couples SHOULD be able to get married. I ended up befriending lots of homosexuals in my school life and thereafter. All I'm saying is that by YOU insisting that religions opposed to gay marriage are supporting violence against young homosexuals is like saying music with violent lyrics are responsible for crime. People can think for themselves. Just think about it...
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@234,

The marriage-is-a-religious-concept line is a big fat lie. I'm an atheist; my husband is agnostic. Our secular wedding ceremony was performed by a Humanist celebrant, but it didn't have to be performed by anyone. Simply signing the papers legalized the marriage. Note that I said MARRIAGE, not civil union. We are MARRIED, and no one ever challenges that designation because we happen to be straight. So why can't gays have the same right? It doesn't make sense to say don't call it marriage because marriage is religious when atheists get married all the time! Marriage is a civil contract. If churches want to perform weddings (or refuse to perform them), that's fine but that is NOT what makes a couple married. Legalization is what makes a union a marriage. It is a legal right, not merely a religious matter. There is no excuse not to extend this right to gay couples.
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For LR If your don't like LGBT people then just do't have anything to do with US we probablly don't want anything to do with you. I don't mean to be rude but if it comes out that way sorry. But about the faith thingy that you were talking about I really hope that you don't think that the Lord depises LGBT's because He created us ALL DIFFERENTLY and He loves US ALL that way. And think about it if we were all created equal then that would really suck to have sex with the same person,the same way and the same all the time.
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@246 Get some like-minded friends of yours together and check out the faith or religion section of your local newspaper. See if they are looking for columnists or if there are opportunities to write letters or online comments. You might want to check out Sojournors at http://www.sojo.net/ Maybe there is some useful info there.
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Another voice to the chorus that there are not only "good" Christians out there, but "good" churches. The church my mom goes to is a "More Light" church... meaning they're explicitly in favor of, well, treating gay people pretty much like straight people.

And, my mother pointed out that...stating or implying that all Christians are anti-gay is, well, pretty insulting to the gay Christians out there...
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@Anne77 - Please read any of the books by Marcus Borg, an Episcopalian and Jesus scholar who believes that the Bible was written by regular people at a certain time in history reflecting their understanding and mores at that time. The Bible is not for the most part "factual" but it does contain Truth. As with the Bible's acceptance of such things as slavery, the anti-homosexual passages can be seen as just plain wrong. As human beings continue to evolve, our understanding of these Truths continue, albeit painfully slowly. God has given us the ability to reason and there is much beauty and important messages, and Truth, in the Bible. I am hopeful that the Emerging Church will be the face of the Christian Church of the future.
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For everyone saying there is no such thing as a good christian, here's an entry in the It Gets Better project:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPZ5eUrNF…

I'm not a religious person, but there ARE homosexuals that are. It's just dickish to pretend that you know what will make everyone in world happy.
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I'm sorry, but the injunctions in Leviticus are more than just "ritually unclean" and unkosher; a few pages later it states that the penalty for a man having gay sex is death. (It doesn't say anything about women in there.) *If* you decide you're going to believe that everything in the Bible is the truth and you're going to follow Jewish law on everything (including the no-mixed-fibers shirt business), then ya gotta buy that.

OR, like most sensible people, you figure out that, okay, whoever wrote and edited that part of the Bible was a flaming homophobe and you're not buying into that, just like you're not buying into the death penalty for a child who strikes his father. We don't do that these days, right? We don't shun mixed-fiber garments; if we did Brooks Brothers would be out of business. We *all* pick and choose what part of the religion we're going to follow and what part is antiquated nonsense. And while that prohibition is in the Bible for sure, and it's real serious for sure, one can choose to follow it, and enforce it on others, OR NOT.

It doesn't do any good to sugarcoat the stuff in the holy books. Those folks back then were making their way out of slavery across a desert, and they *were* homophobic, if for no better reason than that they needed to keep the birth rate way up. (Check out what happened to Onan.) That doesn't mean that we have to either buy into that homophobia or pretend it wasn't there. We have other, better options.

Peace,
Paul
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I'm sorry, but the injunctions in Leviticus are more than just "ritually unclean" and unkosher; a few pages later it states that the penalty for a man having gay sex is death. (It doesn't say anything about women in there.) *If* you decide you're going to believe that everything in the Bible is the truth and you're going to follow Jewish law on everything (including the no-mixed-fibers shirt business), then ya gotta buy that.

OR, like most sensible people, you figure out that, okay, whoever wrote and edited that part of the Bible was a flaming homophobe and you're not buying into it, just like you're not buying into the death penalty for a child who strikes his father. We don't do that these days, right? We don't shun mixed-fiber garments; if we did Brooks Brothers would be out of business. We *all* pick and choose what part of our particular religion we're going to follow and what part is antiquated nonsense. And while that prohibition is in the Bible for sure, and it's real serious for sure, one can choose to follow it, and enforce it on others, OR NOT.

It doesn't do any good to sugarcoat the stuff in the holy books. Those folks back then were making their way out of slavery across a desert, and they *were* homophobic, if for no better reason than that they needed to keep the birth rate way up. (Check out what happened to Onan.) That doesn't mean that we have to either buy into that homophobia or pretend it wasn't there. We have other, better options.

Peace,
Paul
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Sorry for the double post. The software put up both my original comments and the edited version. "To err is human, but if you really want to louse things up, you need a computer."

Peace,
Paul
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After hearing and reading your comments about gaykids being bullied?and commiting suicide?i honestly blame the" gay community" for pointing the finger at Christians rather than themselves!
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I applaud your efforts Dan Savage, but left on it's own, things don't necessarily "Get Better" for LGBT youth facing bullying. The point is to fight to Make it Better and Stop Homophobia.
http://sherrytalksback.wordpress.com/201…
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I applaud your efforts Dan Savage, but left on it's own, things don't necessarily "Get Better" for LGBT youth facing bullying. The point is to fight to Make it Better and Stop Homophobia.
http://sherrytalksback.wordpress.com/201…
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According to Dr. Spitzer--an advocate for gays not being sexual deviants, people can 'change' their orientation.

So, I will agree that bullying is unjustifiable for an alleged orientation/preference.  I wonder if it's true that some of those teenagers may not have been gay but were ridiculed and harassed because it was believed that they were gay.  

Teenage years are so tough.  Most kids are so unsure of who they are and it doesn't help to be labelled.

As for the teens that considered themselves gay and chose to kill themselves--it's a shame.  I remember when I was in highschool, there was a girl who killed herself because she felt she wasn't popular enough.  She wasn't accepted into the crowd because of her average looks.  I wish she had Jesus in her life.  She would have accepted herself the way she was because Jesus loved her and still does because there is an after life.  Don't ask me how that's possible or what proof I have.  I know.  It's called Faith.  My Faith also states that all suicide victims should not get a proper funeral and burial but I'm a rogue Christian.  I kinda believe that God is love and is merciful.  I believe that she's an angel in Heaven.

I have to disagree about Christians being bad.  Even the really 'bad' so called Christians realize that there is a higher power and none of us are without sin.  That's why we need our magic sky friend so badly.

Besides, all LGBT are not equal.  There are members of your group that you'll choose to shun because they've got
BO, or have a lazy eye or what have you.  In other words, you'll become perpetrators of the same diabolical vitriol you're spewing against Christians.  In other words, you'll be considered bullies, too!  Or you might be the victims of bullies in your crowd.  Difficult to change human behavior and it looks like bullying is an insurmountable obstacle in our lives.

Just an aside, it feels like Christians are being persecuted.  I say this because Muslims are known to publicly execute LGB people but no-one
dares criticize them.

I'd have more respect for Dan if he vehemently condemned the atrocity of beheadings, beatings, mutilations that Muslims assault their LGB people with on a regular and ongoing basis.  I'd think he'd have balls but until then, he's a stereotypically weak effeminate gay man to me.
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Bla, bla, bla...Everybody wants everything. That's what this comes down to.

The Christians want it all: the rules, the interpretations, the subordination, the creed, the faith, THE truth, the authority, the legacy, sovereignty over the whole fucking world if they could...

And the gays want everything no less: wanna be "out", want to get married, have children, be respected, accepted, be taken in account, have all the rights, want to scream "I'm gay!" and not get clobbered, want to be proud, want to fuck around, want to be different but not treated differently, some even want to be christian - and gay.

And the kids these days...well, there's just no saying what they don't want and what they're not getting.

And the blacks...who are never done with their list.

And than the immigrants...

And god knows who else, that I can't even keep count of. So, not to make a long tale any longer, I just wanna tell you what I see. Don't see no black or white or yellow or green, or gay, lesbian, drag, tranny, or christian, muslim, Greek fucking orthodox, or whatever... I just see people. And you're ALL a bunch of megalomaniacs. There - equality accomplished by that one all-binding and unremovable human trait. Amen to that.