"Dear America, when you tell gay Americans that they can't serve their country openly or marry the person that they love, you're telling that to kids too. So don't be shocked and wonder where all these bullies are coming from that are torturing young kids and driving them to kill themselves because they're different. They learned it from watching you." Sarah Silverman
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His blood is upon him may have had something to do with the elevated likelihood of catching some sort of fecal born bacteria such as E. Coli from anal sex in the pre-astroglide pre-enema days. And for fuck's sake Christians don't actually follow Kosher laws anymore, so unless you "smaller government" people want the rest of us telling you that you can't have cheeseburgers or bacon, shut the ever living fuck up already.
Also, just want to say. I know tons of straight guys into Futa (dickgirls). So he might not be bi. The way one friend explained it. I like women, but I know how to pleasure a penis since I have one, so girl with penis is appealing. Because I guess girl parts are more of a rubik's cube so it's easier to fantasize about cock, because they know how to get one off. So lots of straight guys like that, and it's generally considered gay. So if the person he hooked up with was trans, he might just have a kink rather than an orientation. Also, if he likes chicks with dicks, as she asked if he'd be into role play with a strap on?
We judge each other every day, based on our ACTIONS. That's fine. I do too. Cheating, lying or stealing aren't cool. Jails are full of people who have been judged by others because of their actions. But I don't judge based on who we ARE or what we are composed of. The God I know made all of us, and loves us all. He's with us when we're born and when we check out. Inbetween, we're supposed to be getting it right such as loving our neighbors as much as we love ourselves.
So, I judge people by their hurtful ACTIONS, not by who they ARE. And I assume and hope they would judge me the same way.
Thanks Dan. Underlying your answers is always the theme of doing the right thing by each other.
I consider myself a Christian and yes, some of my best friends ARE gay. As MLK said, if I judge at all, I judge people on the content of their character.
Also, the comments here that address those of us who stand on the sidelines not speaking up - you're right. I personally need to do more speaking up.
This is why no one can just sit on their butts and wring their hands over this and expect that to be good enough. The extent of heteronomativity in our society means that fixing things is going to be a matter of getting off your butt and DOING something about it. Churches need to do these things: announce from the pulpit that gay bashing is unacceptable. Put up signs denoting safe spaces. Run short classes for the kids making it clear that bullying and gay bashing are unacceptable. Parents: make it clear to your kids that you would love them, gay or straight. Tell them that everyone is entitled to the same treatment as any one else.
If you are doing nothing, you are part of and complicit with the problem. It really is as simple as that.
If you think of yourself as a "good Christian" who supports gay rights, please do yourself and the rest of us a favor and read a little about your religion and its history. Then actually read your holy book. Read every single word and come back and tell us you're a good Christian.
As much as I hate bigoted, anti-gay Christians, at least they're honest about what their spiritual teachers and the writers of their holy book say. And it's pretty clearly not in support of gay rights.
I write this as a historian and a life-long Christian who is well aware of the atrocities Christians in the past have perpetrated on gays, women, non-whites, non-Christians of every kind, and--heck--other kinds of Christians. Because you know what? Power can do that to all kinds of people, whether they are Christ-followers or not.
The Bible is a complex historical document inspired by God but written by real human beings living in very different societies. This is why hermeneutics for our own modern times is so important: to discover meanings relevant to us today. On the other hand, sometimes it's a question to returning to meanings that would have been obvious to ancient audiences but have been obscured by cultural changes. Just yesterday I read a sermon (http://www.thegodarticle.com/3/post/2010…) based on Walter Wink's idea of "Jesus' Third Way," which explains how turning the other cheek is about leveling differences in power in society. This is the God I follow: the one who created this world and then dropped us, beings with free will, into the middle of it, to speak truth to power.
Life is messy, the Bible contradicts itself, and I will always try to love you as God loves you--by making queer-friendly posts on facebook, by attending rallies, and by being an ally to the queerfolk in my life the best I can. Will I always do it perfectly? No. Do I benefit from our heteronormative culture? Yes. But I am inspired by God to try to join you in making it better.
There's nothing in the mail to indicate the lady in question was the girlfriend he cheated on. I think we've all been in relationships that were just not terribly serious and hence not exclusive. Marriage isn't like that.
It seems like a hell of an assumption to say HE WILL DEFINITELY CHEAT ON YOU.
Good response to LR, though. It was bitchy, but the "good christian" writer deserved it. I agree; fuck their feelings when kids are dying because of asshole other kids.
I don't have a sexual preference I have a sexual orientation. Preference indicates a choice.
The only sexual preference I have is the couch to the bed.
I don't have a homosexual lifestyle. Lifestyle is how I expend my resources. Ergo, I have an urban lifestyle.
And when my partner and I are loud I have been know to finish with a rousing rendition of Trey Songz's "Neighbors Know My Name."
That being said, if dude is trying to arrange random hook-ups with other dudes, he's internalising -something-.
@15 and 17 and the many good Christians everywhere - thank you for 'coming out' as gay supporters!
@15 and 17 and the many good Christians everywhere - thank you for 'coming out' as gay supporters!
Just as there is great variation among people, there is great variation among Christians and their beliefs. I believe in equal rights, job opportunities, protections, and chances to find and celebrate love for every human being.
So, sure, it would make you and other "good Christians" comfortable if Dan pointed out that you exist, but why should he? It's not his job. If you're upset by the perception of Christians in our culture, blame the "bad Christians" giving you a bad name, not the people they oppress, condemn, and drive to suicide. Organize other "good Christians" to give your faith a new, tolerant face in our media. If these "bad Christians" are really a minority, then why do they get to do all the talking? Why are they your voice in our culture?
We all need education and tolerance in order for us all to get along... we are not going anywhere...jennifer barge
Shut the fuck up, asshole. Hope the door hits you (hard) on the way out.
Click on the "story tour" button at top. He is currently touring the country, collecting video stories from LGBT people in all 50 states. This week he got one from the mayor of Portland!
Dear 13-year-olds (14, 15, 16, etc):
It doesn't just get better in all the other stuff. It also gets better in religion. If you don't feel a need to have a god in your life, that's fine. But if you do, there are churches (and synagogues, etc.) out there for you. There are Christians like me who accept you the way you are, and support your own choice of who to love and who to marry (and defend it: the local no-on-8 movement was run out of local churches). There is a loving and supportive God for you. If that's something you need or something you're looking for, you'll find it.
Dear 13-year-olds (14, 15, 16, etc):
It doesn't just get better in all the other stuff. It also gets better in religion. If you don't feel a need to have a god in your life, that's fine. But if you do, there are churches (and synagogues, etc.) out there for you. There are Christians like me who accept you the way you are, and support your own choice of who to love and who to marry (and defend it: the local no-on-8 movement was run out of the local UCC church). There is a loving and supportive God for you. If that's something you need or something you're looking for, you'll find it.
The Vatican and the Pope doesn't give a flying fuck what lay Catholics think, as long as you keep dropping that twenty in the collection plate every Sunday.
And that goes for every other denomination. Clean up your own houses, Christians. Are you not your brothers' keepers?
As for the argument made in 53, I believe that standing up for what you believe in in the face of opposition is important. However, I think someone can still consider oneself a member of a powerful group with whom one doesn't 100% agree. I know a lot of Dems who are seriously displeased with our Dem President, but I don't see any of them jumping ship and joining the Repubs. In fact, I would argue that when people form groups, no one in those groups ever 100% agrees with the tennets of those groups. People like to join groups of all kinds, though, because we're a highly social people who've always operated on the supposition that we're better together. There may very well be plenty of stand-up Catholics who are very open about their open-minded views within their community, but I doubt you would be aware of that phenomenon as your response is awfully generalized. I agree with you that the argument is a moot point, but that's because I believe that to argue my "goodness" is worthless. I live the way I live, and you are free to make any judgment on how I live as you see fit--but I would hope that I live in a way that is an inspiration for all people to become more open-minded, Christian or no.
Actually Miss Ohio, everyone in the world reads Savage Love (and I sure hope no one missed this week's colunmn).
@25, were you absent for the monogamy/non-monogamy Slog wars of a few months ago? Dan thinks that over the course of a long marriage, most men will stray a few times. He wants to provide tools to those men and their spouses, so that marriages don't have to end just because of a little infidelity. Does it make you feel better to know that Dan doesn't think guys who like trannies are more likely than other guys to cheat? He thinks that all men are about equally likely to cheat on their spouses.
(The fact that you haven't yet, or won't ever, doesn't mean that Dan is wrong about most men.)
(Full disclosure: my husband did. And thank god for Dan, who helped me see that one infidelity in 14 years was a small mistake, not a reason to end our good marriage.)
Not every religious person is also intolerant. If you're religious and pro-gay, then I'm happy for you and wish there were more like you. However, intolerant people can and should die in a fire.
Here are some examples of Topix discussion threads devoted to gay-bashing from my former hometown in TN. I left this place years ago, and if anything, it has become more bigoted and small-minded:
"God does not love homosexuals. Without a quick Bible reference, I recall homosexuality as the only sin God used the word 'abomination'. He killed hundreds of thousands of homosexuals at a time."
"I think that all of the gay people in the world just need to die...... YOU ARE NOT WANTED, SO CRAWL IN A HOLE WITH YOUR BUTT-BUDDY AND DIE!!"
"There are none. Here in Greeneville, we feed all the gays and lesbians to the wolves."
"We would've beat the shit out of this fairy when I was in school." (In reference to a student from a nearby town running for homecoming queen)
You see, LR, being from this town, I guarantee that each one of the posters, if asked, would claim Christianity as their faith. And yes, some of these posters might even treat a gay, lesbian, or transgendered person politely in person. But, their hearts are corroded with hate. And what of their children?
You don't actively encourage your kids to bully others? Whooptie-doo. I doubt the parents of the tormentors of these recent suicide victims encouraged their children to be abusers either. But they were complicit. Yes they were. Look at the comments above. How are the children of these "God-fearing" people going to treat a gay peer?
That you were offended by Mr. Savage's suggestion that "Christian" America needs to own and address their role in the ongoing and pervasive abuse of gay children, is incredible.
Say what you will about hermeneutics and translations, but your holy book is clear what it thinks about human nature (evil, doomed to hell without a savior), sex (bad outside of straight marriage), the meaning of life (to serve the will of a god who brags about committing atrocities), and diversity (only one way to be saved).
If you really want to believe in a god of love, and freedom, and beauty, and human rights, and speaking truth to power... based on what the Bible says, Jesus/Yahweh seems like an odd choice. Why him? Why not choose a different one? I suspect it was because you were raised with Christian traditions, or had powerful experiences in the context of those traditions, which is understandable. I just wish people would be honest and separate out their spiritual values from a religious tradition full of hate and atrocity. You really can have the good stuff without the Jesus/Bible stuff.
I don't want to dispute that the Bible is a "bigoted book," but it's my understand that many thoughtful Christians know the Bible was written by humans at a particular time in history, and that it's an imperfect text. They see it as their responsibility to use their God-given intelligence and judgment to figure out which ideas in the Bible to take to heart, and which to reject. If a religious believer says that hate, bigotry and sex-negativity aren't part of their faith, I see no reason to ignore that in favor of my own preconceptions.
To those who are saying Christians should "clean up their own houses," your points are well taken. But some commenters here are pointing out that their church, and not just themselves personally, is pro-gay rights. And what about a denomination like the Episcopalians, which allows gay priests and bishops? Just another reason not to insist that all Xtians are on the wrong side.
Wow, that's a big stereotype.
And guess what? Total bullshit. I'm a gay man who's never had sex or interest in sex with a woman, and I like watching chicks-with-dicks porn. Hell, I like *any* kind of porn.
Porn is good, and Dan Savage making sweeping generalizations is bad.
Unfortunately Christians aren’t the only ones fomenting hate, fear, and bigotry against homosexuals in this country.
Orthodox Jews were expecting NY GOP governor hopeful Carl Paladino to read some anti-homosexual remarks that even he felt went too far, and he already expressed some other outrageous homophobic remarks of his own!
And as for Muslims, I still have to hear a clear acceptance of homosexuality in this country from community leaders. And I mean this country only as I understand that if they did so in the Middle East it could shorten their lives substantially.
It’s funny, sad actually, that conservative Christian politicians in this election season who bash Islam for short political gains aren’t that much better. Right Sarah?
If I called myself a Phelpsian and went around saying I loved Fred Phelps, but that I thought most of what he said was misinterpreted and it was really all about love and I'm still a big supporter of gay marriage and gay rights... can you see that that would be a little odd and harmful? Even if I wasn't a bigot myself? Jesus and St. Paul wrote down their thoughts and beliefs. They thought people deserved to be punished eternally for sex outside of straight marriage. Or for even thinking about sex outside of straight marriage.
You said: "If a religious believer says that hate, bigotry and sex-negativity aren't part of their faith, I see no reason to ignore that in favor of my own preconceptions."
Fair enough, but then I see no reason for such believers to call themselves Christians.
For some reason people like to think so, but our friends aren't statistically reliable focus groups. They know you and you know them, so there's always some kind of agenda when it comes to telling or omitting certain things.
Even aside from all that, saying "Well, Mike has never said he liked trannies" is quite different from "Mike said he doesn't like trannies." I could deduce all kinds of stuff about you based on things you haven't said.
You STILL can be right and not know any guys who are into trannies, but it's possible that people who like and dislike similar things *tend to hang out together.* Yeah? I'm sure there are people out there whose every friend loves the fuck out of trannies.
I'm disappointed in your response to the christian. This is a person who was trying to reach out and show humanity despite political disagreements. You could have made a friend, potentially an ally, but you couldn't see past your own prejudices (Regardless of any that were shown to you-- be the bigger man). You've succeeded either in fully alienating this person, or beating her into submission. How is that any better than the way bigoted assholes have treated you?
The problem, I think, is that you (along with many, many others) have confused personal religion with the force that is nominally religion in politics. The force that assholes use for cover whenever they are too cowardly to stand up for what they believe in alone, and too stupid to come up with a better reason than "the bible says it". A force that should have died out long ago, but that continues because it is a political, financial, and motivational power. And thank god they aren't all as organized as the catholics!
But a person of faith is not to be blamed for the horrors of his given religion. Most every powerful institution has done horrible things, but we all belong to several of them. Each person needs to be aware of the issues, and do what they can to to improve the world as they see it. lots of possible rants here, but that's the gist.
Make friends-- when people show you their fuzzy underbelly of good intent, scratch it, don't stab them.
No, wait. I'm not.
This is the second time I have seen Dan piss all over an entire group of people.
I wonder if he has the belief that because people pissed all over him because he is gay, he doesn't have to stop to see the humanity in other people when the tables are turned.
Grow Dan, Grow.
There are Christian groups that speak out against the oppression of LGBT folks, the Episcopal church being a notable example of that where the Bishop of Los Angeles actively worked against Prop 8, and we marry and ordain LGBT folks. I realize that not a whole lot of pro-LGBT Christian stuff makes it to the media, but it's not because it doesn't happen, it's because it doesn't make for a very sexy news story.
There are Christians who do more than wring their hands and say how sorry they are.
There are Christians who do more than wring their hands and say how sorry they are.
If your message is that we should not judge people based on their religious preference, how do you justify judging entire groups of people for any other reason? There is no part of me that took any pleasure in what happened to those people and I know for a fact that is true of many other people who disagree with your faith. Please be aware that your words are powerful and people are listening to you.
To that end, to imply that I would somehow encourage my children to mock, hurt, or intimidate another person for any reason is completely unfounded and offensive. Being a follower of Allah is, above all things, a recognition that we are imperfect, fallible and in desperate need of submission. We cannot believe that we are better or more worthy than other people. I have never in my life know someone who loved Allah who wished ill will on other people and certainly not death "so that [we] can perpetuate [our own] agenda."
Please consider your viewpoint and please be more careful with your words in the future.
Peace and Love to you and your family.
Then again, he wouldn't spend other people's money on gold nugget jewelery, expensive make-up and bad toupees either.
His locker mate found a suicide note, due to
all the bullying he has experienced in 6th grade.
The kid reported it to the school, the school contacted the parents and he is in counseling.
I wish I could say an assembly was called for the whole school. It was not, they were in the middle of a health unit on bullying, this was deemed good enough....BF's kid saw the videos and they helped him a lot. I am taking him to my church to meet more adult, successful gay men,
because our church is where I know of a dozen with great husbands, jobs and kids.
You say whatever you need to about Christians and I will disagree, people choose to mis-use the bible like they use guns, knives, marriage and sex as tools to hurt folks; don't blame the gun, blame the shooter.
But you saved a precious boy and so you get a lot of slack from me.
Trying to stifle a scream can be just as sexy as being loud. I am just sayin'.
It Gets Better is a game-changer, I am so grateful for you and your husband's work there.
The reason homosexuality is mentioned in the Old Testament is most likely because apparently it always existed and, one can assume, always will. And despite some of the rules/aspirations mentioned in it, some characters with clear homosexual tendencies come across in a positive way. The most famous one is probably King David and his well-known “boyfriend” Jonathan.
The other one is Joseph, Jacob’s son, who was favored by the father but also had a tendency to wear fancy striped gowns and do other stuff that embarrassed his older brothers. They ended up selling him to nomads, those guys aren’t particularly picky, and they took him to Egypt. Being the only Jew in Egypt at the time he had to take on himself few traditional roles, thus becoming Pharaoh’s both shrink and economic adviser. Thanks to his advice Egypt was still prosperous when famine hit the region. So when the rest of his family arrived there, seeking relief from hunger, he was still kind enough to forgive and accept them.
Other than that the Old Testament is full of shenanigans, temptation stories, and horrendous murders. One shouldn’t single out “anti-homosexuality” message in it in order to foment fear and hatred.
Sorry, not that familiar with the New Testament, but John Waters was quoted few years ago saying the entire Christian religion is based on a homosexual S&M fantasy: a nude man attached to a cross.
I have been an evangelical my whole life with hundreds of evangelical friends and family, but more recently, many gay and lesbian friends. For me, I felt that I could not embrace the teaching of the bible and my LGBT friends, so I have rejected the bible and evangelicalism. I posted this on a long thread on Facebook recently and have been catching hell all over the place. We all have to do this differently, and for many, finding (workarounds) in the bible is adequate, but for me I decided that the clear teachings of the bible just didn't square with reality as it is, so I dumped any kind of slavish devotion to the bible.
It's a journey, I came to a fork and took the path less traveled, and I'm OK with that.
I don't care what your personal beliefs are, but if you participate in organized christian activities, you're a part of the problem.
As to the "if you are a Christian you are part of the problem" folks. My purpose in replying to this article was not to convert anyone, and I don't really need your permission to lead my life as I see fit anymore than you need mine or anyone else's. My point is that those Christians who use their supposed faith to justify bigotry, and bullying are not only assholes they are shitty theologians who have completely missed the point. And really, that message is more for them than the LGBT community. I get that there is good reason for most of the anger directed at mainstream Christianity. All I can say is that they are wrong and you are absolutely right, and I am in fact incredibly sorry for the evil that these people
Commit against their fellow citizens.
If you still want to believe that progressive Christans are part of the problem, I doubt I can dissuade you, but that's a shame, but I am not going to apologize for being who I am.
And at the end of the day...who these people really are are just good people who choose to subscribe to the parts of Christianity that they feel help them in being good people. But it is a natural human impulse to get offended when someone paints your group with a large brush that doesn't apply to you. Nothing new to see here, really.