Savage Love

Need to Know

Comments

1
am i the only one who thinks LW 1 is not real? A bible tied to a rope? a 12 year old being taught to eat pussy?
2
Nah, I think it's real but WAY too much information. No kid, male or female, should get pussy-eating or cocksucking lessons from either parent. Ew ew ew ew.
3
@1 I know people with parents that psychotic (literal Bible-beating-wise, anyway), and also people whose parents had no concept of TMI. It doesn't seem that far-fetched to me.
4
@NTTWT I'm the wife in a husband/wife/boyfriend polyfidelitous V, and we came out to all three of our families only after the three of us had been happily living together for two and a half years.

Their families are great, and we're usually ALL invited to holidays and weddings and such. My family are conservative evangelicals, and they threw an epic temper tantrum. Things are still awkward, over a year and a half after "coming out" as poly, and I don't know if they'll still be part of our lives when kids enter the picture down the road. For now, I'm content to keep minimal contact with them (they're quite a distance away), and hope that several more years of seeing how happy I am will erode their harsh judgments a wee bit. Who knows? I'm sure not counting on it though.

So for religious parents (albeit not abusive parents) my advice is to be SURE you're ready, because you might be underestimating the shitstorm that can develop. I'm still glad that I told my parents, but it was hard to face such harsh words and screaming and so-on. If I could go back and warn myself about what would happen, I would still say "tell them - you'll have to eventually," but I'd want to brace myself better for the emotional upheaval part.
5
No catchy sign-off just needs to get a prescription for cialis and go for it.
7
No Catchy Sign Off Is it really worth risking destroying your family, devastating your children and messing up your finances just because you don't find your sex life exciting? For Chrissake, get OVER it, man up and find other things to worry about.

Maybe it finally happened. The Almighty struck someone down because he screwed around on his trusting wife.
8
I love the advice in letter #1. I'm in a couple of longterm relationships outside of my marriage, and one of them is threatening to make it to ten years! (I've been married for 18.) I've seen married folks dump the spouse and kids and shack up with their new "flavor of the week", and get COMPLETELY accepted by their families, no questions asked. THESE people have no shame, so neither should most folks. I don't run my lifestyle choices by anyone who I think won't understand, let alone anyone who I think will ridicule me, and I suggest the same for anyone else who likes to think for themselves. (I love you, Dan Savage!)
9
Oh, and I forgot to add, you young folks in the first letter - you're still in the throes of what we sex education types like to call NRE - new relationship energy. Be very wary of making decisions that affect your life and the lives of others while under this spell. Good luck!
10
Great column this week Dan! It more than makes up for last week's totally lazy one. Sigh....I wish I had a sex life.
11
@1: I'm hoping the "bible tied to a rope" bit was metaphorical, but then again I have social worker friends and they have stories that trump that.
12
I can't get past the idea of someone's dad teaching them to eat pussy. I just hope to God he wasn't using mom to demonstrate.

Ugh ugh ugh ugh ugh.
13
Holidays? I'm amazed that NiTTWiT (see what I did there?) is on speaking terms with the mother in law at all. After an outburst like that, she wouldn't be welcome in my house, and I sure as hell wouldn't go to hers, holiday or no holiday.
14
@7 I think you're underestimating the personal and emotional damage that kind of long term sexual relationship can do to a person.

I was with a partner (a man - I'm a woman) who was very similar to the wife described by NCSO. The constant sexual rejection, and the lack of fun when it did happen, meant I believed that I was deeply unattractive in all ways and that sex was boring (at best) and deeply unpleasant (at worst). Despite his constant reassurances that it was his low sex drive, not something wrong with me, it felt like it was my fault. This is something I am still working on, with the help of a kind and sexually active (and patient!) partner.

Don't underestimate the longterm psychological effects of being in a relationship like that. I'd also say good luck to NCOS in talking to his wife about opening things up - I tried that after many years of barely any sex life and was told, through his tears, that he wasn't prepared to let me do that (though he also wasn't prepared to work on improving our sex life). I realised I had to leave soon after that, after seven years.

I empathise with NCOS and wish him the best.
15
I'm surprised letter one got past Dan's bullshit detector. Clearly, it is a trial balloon floated by HBO for a cable "reality" series. Way cheaper than actually producing a four-show pilot.
16
If NTTWT is for real, I don't see why there needs to be any kind of immediate disclosure. The girlfriend can come along to the wife's holiday functions as a family friend (not a lie) and the marrieds can go along with her to her family stuff in the same capacity. If the relationship lasts, no reason to come out of the closet. Let the relatives figure it out on their own.

I don't see why they're going near either woman's family though - sounds like about as much fun as being beaten with a sock full of quarters. Or a bible attached to a belt, I guess.
17
Hey, good on WIFE for being game for the chastity play. HOT!
18
NTTWT is bullshit - 23 and already married and seeking a 3rd? Yeah okay...

WIFE - Kudos to you for really working at meeting your husband's needs! Hopefully he's meeting your needs as well.

NCSO - Infidelity sickens me, but when people get married too early and for the wrong reasons, these things can happen. Not to sound judgmental, but why didn't you call your wife out on her sexual selfishness/boredom before you felt the need to cheat? Sex is just as important to a relationship (or marriage) as the emotional component...
19
I'm assuming LW#1 brought every new girlfriend home to the family for approval, regardless if he'd been dating her two minutes or two years. Personally, I think 23 is too young for anyone to get married, so I sort of wonder how long THAT relationship will last, let alone the poly one. But introducing a new girlfriend around as part of your poly arrangement sounds more like bragging rights than trying to be inclusive of your new "love".

LW#3, your body obviously isn't ready for cheating, as much as your mind wants it. Maybe you can persuade the wife into therapy because it sounds like deep down, you'd rather have her than the new girl. If, during therapy, you disclose that you want more sex or you think you're too different to continue your marriage, and if she shoots you down (or agrees with the divorce), then it sounds like you'll work just fine.
20
Yeah, I have no idea why people think it's better for a woman who's borne a man children, helped him form a household, and cared for him as a partner and friend to have to submit to a boring pronging that she wants nothing to do with then it is to acknowledge that sex isn't necessarily the center of a successful marriage and go find someone who *does* want to touch his dick occasionally. Like, I'm not pro-cheating, but if it's cheating or guilting a woman you purport to love into having sex she doesn't want and doesn't like, goddamn, cheat, just keep it safe.

However: mothers of young children who are being pawed at all day by drooling, pants-pooping toddlers *often* report just wanting to go to sleep without anyone else touching them. And women who are breastfeeding or on the Pill often report that the hormones make it hard to maintain arousal - trust me, if it was normal for men to be on medication that meant that they couldn't keep a boner for more than thirty seconds, decades on end, people would be a lot less complacent about it. Having sex also takes time, and the average married woman has about thirty hours a week less free time than the average married man. I know theoretically open marriages where the wife has a stronger sex drive, where she hasn't found three hours together to go on a date in a year. Seriously, I have to question how these men whose wives don't have time to take their clothes off are finding time to meet people. I still think it's better than making a busy woman who can't get a ladyboner put "service husband" on her to-do list OR ELSE. I just also think it's kind of bullshit, on a wider scale.
21
#18 (tREBLEFREE) wrote:
Not to sound judgmental, but why didn't you call your wife out on her sexual selfishness/boredom before you felt the need to cheat?
***

You need to go back and read the letter again. The advice-seeker has tried to talk with his wife about how seldom they have sex, and nothing's changed. She probably thinks he won't step out on their marriage to satisfy his desire for more sex.

If he follows Dan's advice, and he should, the conversation about how he wants the opportunity to have sex with other women is going to be a wake-up call for his wife! It might blow up in his face, too, but it's better for him to put his cards on the table than it is to sneak around and hope his wife won't figure out what's going on behind her back.
22
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23
Given NTTWT's opinion of his mother-in-law and his wife's feeling that she needs her mother's approval, they might want to be sure they're on the same page before considering any disclosure. Even if they are, telling his legal mother-in-law seems likely to result in an increase in attempted marital interference. The wife's mother could well decide to blame him for everything. She might be able to create enough pressure to cause the marriage to crack, and there's enough on that plate as it is.
24
I can't accept that letter #2 is real. I mean, it probably is, It just sounds like one of those 'great on paper, terrible in execution' concepts that you realise when he's backlogged so much that his pops out one bio-emission in 25 seconds that could fill the base of the Stanley Cup.
25
Thank you Dan! In the final sentence to WIFE, you made a casual mention of how long term denial/lack of orgasm for men can possibly lead to prostate cancer.

This is a very important piece of information, of which I believe most guys are not aware. This is the first time I've ever seen it mentioned in print.

This is exactly what the prostate is there for, and it needs to be able to do its intended job or it will begin to shut down, one way or another.

This is a prime example of "Use it or Lose it!", and why we should never leave our sexual function only in the "hands" of others. (As in only when there's a partner involved or available.)

Keep it up! (The good work, I mean...)
27
Is NCSO still getting morning wood? If not, he should definitely get checked out by a doctor.

But if he is getting erections in his sleep, then nothing is wrong physically. I think he should explain his plans to his wife, perhaps stopping off first to talk to a lawyer about his options if she files for divorce.

After all that, when he wants to continue things with the girlfriend, they should focus on other sex acts for a while, and, like WIFE, see his orgasm postponement as foreplay for the hot sex they will eventually have together. He should get good at giving the girlfriend orgasms (might try giving some no-strings-attached orgasms to his wife, too, if he can still stand to touch her).

Give it a couple of months, and when he's used to the new situation, his boners will start coming back.
28
My theory: the nonamorous wife is secretly feeding him Cyproterone
29
@24 Yes #2 is real I am in the same boat and >30 yrs married. I decided to experiment with a GF and when nothing happened, she balmed herself. I saw a Dr got the blue pill rx and we proceeded to have agreat time. After a few years she married and ended it. I still use the "V" at home and also once in a while outside just to feel some excitement again. Also it does no good to suggest experimenting with new things to a spouse who really wants nothing more than as little sex as possible.
sb
30
I'd add to the comments to NCSO that it helps to be really really clear what you want to achieve and "why" - I'm surmising that he's deeply confused at the moment, and possibly that's emerging in his performance problems (i.e. they're symptomatic).

I wouldn't address this with the wife until he has that clarity - it helps if he can also get to a place where he's trying to achieve a good result for all of them.

When I had the clarity, I was extremely resourceful with my anti-GGG wife, and that really helped to get her to the negotiating table. And we have been able to turn things round and she is now GGG.

I didn't cheat, but I make no judgements about that, and am contemptuous about those who do castigate cheaters in those circumstances - the situation is horrible, you really don't want to be there. When you're in an exclusive sexual and emotional long-term relationship, you both have a duty of care to the other in whatever language they prefer: that's what GGG's about. And if you aren't able to get there, then don't be surprised or get on moral high-horses if the relationship disintegrates.
31
Tell your wife you are inches away from cheating because of your lack of sexual compatibility. Get counseling and therapy for the both of you, and if she doesn't start putting out more, file for divorce. You are about to open a door that you will never be able to close. People change over time, and they don't always change together. This is fine. But don't lie to compensate for your unhappiness.

It would be better for you to divorce than to cheat, unless your wife is terminal or has a health condition where sex is impossible.

I really don't understand people these days. Isn't life complicated enough as it is without lying to the person you love?
32
Thank you #29. Thank you.
33
There's some hot stuff out there for folks who are into orgasm denial. One forum is: http://chastityforums.com/. Some of the men there have been orgasm free for quite a while, and are in good health. The prostrate can be played with separately from the penis, after all.
34
I think there are cases where cheating is clearly acceptable and the humane suggestion, however, when I read these letters from writers who want to cheat I find that that is very rarely the case. Talking is a good start but how is he approaching these talks? Nobody wants their sexuality criticized. Is he approaching her in a way that is accusing and shuts her down or does he try to turn her on? Talking about sex can be sexy! They have three kids. How old is the youngest--could there be a hormonal reason for her lack of interest (like nursing)? Also, is she overburdened at home? If so, don't be surprised that you're not getting any. When there is a work/power imbalance sex can feel servile, and not in a nice way. ;) The itch to cheat can be intense; be sure you've really tried and are not just rationalizing a dishonest decision because the results can be devestating.

I guess it's not much of an issue with this letter writer since he can't get it up anyway, but there are legitimate reasons to cheat and really lame excuses for cheating. It would be helpful if the letter writers wrote more about what they've tried to do to get their spouse interested (other than tedious nattering)--Dan could even make suggestions about what might be more effective.
35
My husband and I have been chaste life for a few months now. His cock is locked and I get to choose when he is released for orgasm. I can honestly say we are having more fun and more sex than we have in years--this after 3+ decades of marriage.
36
Oops, sorry: have been living a chaste life...

37
I'm sorry but what FOOL in their right FREAKING MIND would self-deny an orgasm for CRYING OUT LOUD.

Hell in a handcart, all of us.
38
Have to agree with Devoted. My and I are in a chaste relationship now, and the sex has never been hotter or more frequent. He just doesn't orgasm often. He LOVES it. Says it is like riding the high for days/weeks at a time. We are not old (mid20's&30's) and have no infidelity issues. Just having fun!
39
I toss the yogurt about alone and sex is just fine. Sounds like it's your attention spans that need attuning, not the ratio of ejaculation!

(all said with love, in peace, slightly baffled)
40
I think the prostate health issue is overblown. There's just no serious research to support the claim either way.

I've been living the chastised lifestyle for two years and, even though I only orgasm about once every three months, find it to be the best, most rewarding sex of my life.
41
Sevendaughters, you need t get out more. There's a hell of a lot more to sex than orgasm...
42
For those advising a Viagra/Cialis prescription: That sounds like a really good way to get caught cheating on your wife. Unless you can keep the prescription in a locked box and tell the wife nothing about it, she's likely to wonder why you have boner pills and who you've been fucking while under their influence.

Also, as someone with a parent with TMI syndrome, the pussy-eating lessons sound totally normal.
43
Regarding letter #3: If the guy seriously wants to stay married to his wife of 12 years, he should dump the girlfriend, read up on chastity, and give it a try. I know of several couples who have salvaged foundering marriages through chastity and orgasm denial. My marriage was in good shape and doing well so we weren't dealing with that issue but even so, sex and communication between my husband and I have improved tremendously in recent months. And our experience is not unique.

It's not weird, it's fun.

D
44
@41 I know that, but eventually having an orgasm doesn't prevent me reaching this allegedly sacred 'other stuff'!
45
I fail to see where living chaste will bring a man more orgasms. His wife certainly, him, not so much.

That said, I'm going to take this opportunity to shamelessly pimp my new blog dealing with male chastity. Nuts4belle.wordpress.com

*runs away*
46
I think cheating is usually wrong because if you're breaking a promise *you're*breaking*a*promise*. Fix what's wrong with your marriage, talk out your problems, determine whether you can compromise or open things up, but don't lie to your primary partner. Or any partner. And if that means you break up, then you had a good run. Congrats. Move on.
47
Thankfully, of all the posts here, only #18 and #19 were posted by judgmental toads. It takes some stones to put one's stuff out there, even if anonymously.

It's not put out there so bitter people can spread their toxins around to others. Way to make this all about YOU and your dysfunctions, by laying those judgments out there.

Be proud.

48
I have to agree with Thumper (#40) there is little evidence to suggest that reduced ejaculation causes prostate cancer. There have been TWO studies that have found a relation between number ejaculations in earlier periods of life and risk of prostate cancer. Compared to men who ejaculated less frequently, men who ejaculated more frequently, i.e., (~4-7 times per week) were ~33% less likely to be diagnosed with prostate cancer. One study was in Australian men and the other was in the Health Professionals Follow-up study (non-physicians but health professionals) so not exactly generalizable to the U.S. population. These findings constitute the sole evidence for a link between ejaculation frequency and prostate cancer risk.

In other words, not such a lot of evidence. Finally, even if there WERE a relationship, CORRELATION IS NOT CAUSATION. In other words, just because you see a connection, doesn't mean one thing causes the other (e.g., carrying a lighter around doesn't cause lung cancer but you can bet that people who do have a higher risk of lung cancer).

A Prostate Cancer Researcher
49
I have to agree with Thumper (#40) there is little evidence to suggest that reduced ejaculation causes prostate cancer. There have been TWO studies that have found a relation between number ejaculations in earlier periods of life and risk of prostate cancer. Compared to men who ejaculated less frequently, men who ejaculated more frequently, i.e., (~4-7 times per week) were ~33% less likely to be diagnosed with prostate cancer. One study was in Australian men and the other was in the Health Professionals Follow-up study (non-physicians but health professionals) so not exactly generalizable to the U.S. population. These findings constitute the sole evidence for a link between ejaculation frequency and prostate cancer risk.

In other words, not such a lot of evidence. Finally, even if there WERE a relationship, CORRELATION IS NOT CAUSATION. In other words, just because you see a connection, doesn't mean one thing causes the other (e.g., carrying a lighter around doesn't cause lung cancer but you can bet that people who do have a higher risk of lung cance
50
Beaten with a bible tied to a rope?

Oh yeah. Sounds familiar. Her mom also used to lock her in a cupboard screaming: "DIRTY PILLOWS!", right?

Heeeey, wait. I though her mom died in that story? In any case do not go to any formal dances with this woman. She does not deal with disappointment well. And two words I would not mention: Pigs blood.
51
(It shouldn't mean divorce, in my opinion, but it usually does.)


No, actually it doesn't, HACK.
52
Hey NTTWT,

It's real simple: You don't have to follow the same policy with all three sets of parents. The parents who are sane enough to cope, deserve to be told. The ones who swing bibles and back-bite are another matter.

It sounds to me like the real debate that's taking place is not over whether to tell the bible swinger (-- I'm sure none of you are in favor of that --) but instead between you and your wife about whether to tell her mother.

It doesn't sound to me like your relationship with your mother-in-law stands to suffer much in any case. If your wife really wants to arm her mother with more ammo to use against her kids, my $0.02 is: let her.
53
I am curious: Dan claims that orgasm denial leads to more orgasms, but the commenters here who have some experience with the topic say it's fewer orgasms, but with a more constant 'erotic high' (and with every granted orgasm being so much stronger). So what's the truth here: more orgasms, or fewer but more potent ones? Was Dan wrong?
54
I knew a guy with a triangular-shaped burn on his back. If you asked about it, he'd tell you about the time he failed a test and his mother "punished" him with a clothes iron. Beating someone with a Bible-on-a-rope seems mundane in comparison to that.
55
@53: Dan wrote: "Except in the most extreme cases, WIFE, male chastity play isn't really about orgasm denial. It's more of an elaborate, extended kind of foreplay, a way of introducing elements of erotic power and control that usually result in the denied/chaste man having more orgasms, not fewer."

I think his answer would be more accurate if he said that "Male chastity play is about orgasm denial, but in a larger context of the sexual experience of the couple. It's more of an elaborate, extended kind of foreplay, a way of introducing elements of erotic power and control that usually result in the denied/chaste man having fewer orgasms, but when he has them, they are more powerful, more intense, and overall, more "emotional" than those orgasms experienced pre-chastity."

As someone else said, www.chastityforums.com is a good source of info. I also have a blog: devotedlvr.wordpress.com. I think you'll find good information at both sites and folks who are willing to answer questions.

D

56
NCSO: Want something on the side? Try a therapist.

The disappointments in your marriage are probably symptoms of deeper problems to which you are contributing. You can't run away from problems like these. You'll take them into future relationships (along with your ugliest couch), and you'll continue experiencing them on top of the wallet-crushing child support payments.

Confront your problems head on. Dig in and figure this shit out. It only gets worse until you do.
57
#53 Several regular posters on www.chastityforums.com report that after beginning chastity play that their marriages began to feature MUCH more regular intimacy and play. That intimacy may not lead to orgasms for the man very often, but the couples find it ENORMOUSLY more satisfying than their relationship pre-chastity play.
58
I was the patient girl once. I've been having a long-term affair with a married man who had trouble getting it up the first few times we were together. He was getting pretty worried, but he was just having trouble relaxing. We solved our problem by spending more time together and slowly exploring each other. No pills needed. No more problem.
59
NCSO. Therapy. Period.
60
What bullcrap you spewing @31 to say, "It would be better for you to divorce than to cheat...." as a blanket statement -- except in the case of the terminal illness of the spouse. Honesty, even if it results in divorce, is ALWAYS THE BEST POLICY!?!? Give. Me. A. Break.

You are either crazy or have such an unrealistically simplistic (and judgmental) understanding of the complexity of human relationships that you might as well be for the quality of the advice you give. Who the hell said that "integrity" is the ultimate human virtue in the context of marriage, anyway?

I'm in a situation where I've been married 35 years, got married on the young side in the context of evangelical Christianity that both my wife and I shared at the time. She was a virgin when we got hitched, didn't know that such a thing as oral sex even existed (truly), and I held up her innocence and general lack of interest in non-procreative sex as an ideal to which I should aspire. So I basically did my best to suppress my sexuality for the next couple of decades.

Fast forward 25 years to a time when I had left religion far behind me, she still held to a semblance of it but wasn't dogmatic, we were still each other's best friends, had two kids, AND, while I had finally embraced my sexuality as a good thing, she remained disinterested -- just as she always had been. There's simply no way I would divorce her for that. But by then the time had come -- after innumerable conversations about "sex -- AGAIN," offers to go to counseling (she just felt she would be left feeling SHE would have to change, and she liked things the way they were thankyouverymuch), trying to introduce greater frequency than once every few YEARS (to no avail), and even telling her outright I wanted to have sex with other women and asking her permission ("No."), that I started cheating.

I told her about one affair, in the misbegotten hope it would be a wake-up call, but, while she felt hurt, she didn't divorce me, nor did she make any effort to put out more. I had no desire, or compelling reason, to stop having sex again OR to tell her about subsequent affairs. There was just no point. I didn't, and don't, value my sense of integrity enough to discard everything positive about our relationship or the family we've grown.

We have continued to grow old together, pleasurably (except for, from my perspective, the lack of sex). HOW DARE YOU say something like it would be better to divorce than lie?
61
@60: She also gets a vote. If she's cool with you sleeping with other people, then the issue isn't you "divorcing her." If she's not, she might want to divorce you. And she also gets that choice.
62
@7 (GG1000) - You are SO obviously a woman! Part of the contract of marriage and monogamy is that you give yourself up to the other person. That means doing things you don't want to do (like clean the bathroom or open your legs on a regular basis) to your significant other. I have yet to find ANY couple who got divorced because they weren't having regular sex. Its just an another example of problems in the marriage. I'm sure that NCSO has many other things to complain about but chooses not to.

Men (and women according to some of the people who write to Dan) are sexual creatures. It is an integral part of our lives. If women can't handle that then open the doors to nonmonogamy. Other cultures have done it. The wife conveniently "looks away" so the husband can get his rocks off but at the same time keep the family together.

NCSO should work on his marital issues first and then determine options. Divorce is a radical step with long lasting effects on all parties and cheating eventually is uncovered.
63
@53 The "orgasm denial leading to more orgasms" comment is nothing like my experience nor is it the experience of others I know who're also into orgasm denial play. I'm not sure where Dan's coming from with that and I'd love to hear more of his position, but NO, when integrated into one's lifestyle over long periods of time, being denied orgasms leads to...fewer orgasms!

But like I said above, that's not at a bad thing. I think so many people (men and women both) think the entire point of sex is that it should end with a guy spurting all over the place. Dramatic theater moment aside, it's just not true. Besides the fantastic sex one can have by not coming at the end, there's also the high one gets from not releasing all those hormones.

Since others have plugged their blogs, I will too: www.denyingthumper.com
64
NCSO Yes dont risk it all to save your dignity. If your wife loved you she would want you to cheat maybe shes cheating on you. Its ok she doesnt want to have sex. Its not ok that this decision is foisted upon you. Get cialis and do it. The subliminal smell of another woman may be what your wife needs to regain respect for you.
65
The most messed up thing in the first letter is the wife's need for approval from a hypocritical, judgmental, nut-bag bitch who beats children with bibles on a rope. Get the wife some therapy and cut off the southern psycho.

Toxic people are toxic people -- parents don't get a free pass.
66
I'm maybe the odd one out but I would like to agree with Mr Savage. I think long term denial and prostate cancer concerns are "valid" a 30% increase in danger is a serious number. The fact that all the studies don't agree is.... Not amazing *Studies being flipped for various reasons.

I also want to suggest that Male Chastity doesn't need to be about orgasm denial and in particular long term denial as it is about orgasm control. To my thinking Male Chastity is a lot about focus on the female (Pleasure) in and out of the bedroom. Some folks take this to mean submission and domination, others keep it at tease. Some want this to be a "kink" and others push it to 24:7

Far too many seem to know the "ONLY" way it must be done.
67
Humm.. Guess I should have registered before trying to post a comment so here goes again.

First - I agree with Mr Savage. Long term denial and prostate cancer... There are a variety of studies but the ones that suggest frequency and cancer issues are connected are pretty strong so why test it?

Second I think this "can" be just about male orgasm "Control" and it may well end up being an orgasmic increase rather then a marathon of denial. Lots of the male chastity "porn" seems to be about long term denial rather then control but at least a few folks have told me they ended up having more sex (With male Orgasm) then less. I think there are quite a few variations on how you do this and how far you take it. It can be more "tease" or you can go full on into Femdom if thats your thing. Just as you can go for denial for long periods or just as control and focus on female pleasure (in and out of the bedroom)

Jimi123
68
The first letter sounds very real to me. There's some extreme behavior described in it (a 12-year-old being told how to eat pussy by his father, the bible-on-a-rope thing, etc.) but it's all - unfortunately - very plausible.

The thing about the mother-in-law calling him a "thieving junkie" is the type of detail (anger over a different issue) that you'd see in a real letter. And there are plenty of weird-ass parents out there with a range of issues, so the idea of a father thinking it's funny to give his 12-year-old son pointers on oral sex doesn't seem completely unrealistic. (If he'd said that his father would make him practice on a blowup doll, and punish him for improper technique by hitting him with a bible, THEN I'd say it was a fake letter.)

Anyway, I think the most troubling thing in the letter is the part about the wife wanting to tell her supposedly-evil mother, because she feels that she "needs her approval." Why does she feel that way? Does that mean that she'll want to drop their new girlfriend if the mother doesn't give her blessing? If so, start worrying - because I don't think her approval is coming anytime soon.

If the letter said, "My wife doesn't like the idea of lying to her parents about who our girlfriend is," then I wouldn't find it troublesome.
69
I'd advise keeping the poly thing on the DL for now. I was in a four year relationship with one girl where we dated another girl for awhile. Due to her insecurity she insisted we introduce her to our friends as our girlfriend. It made us feel really stupid and after she went away we wished we hadn't.
70
Also, #65 - the bible-on-a-rope woman isn't the wife's mother, it's the girlfriend's mother. So the wife's need for validation from her mother is disturbing, but it's not the crazy, physically-abusive woman that she wants it from.
71
@60-- Thank you, someone else out there gets it!

I've been trying to explain this to a friend of mine who's been with his wife for 10 years -- and has had sex to "completion" (he's orgasmed) ONE TIME. In 10 years. Once.

Life's too short for that nonsense.
72
@60, Seems to me that since you told her about one affair, and she dealt with it, that's pretty close to what Dan asks of everyone.

Did you promise not to do it again? If not, then I'd say you're on solid ground. If you did promise, then maybe you should revisit the issue with her.

There's also the issue of disease to worry about. Maybe you owe it to your wife to use condoms *with her* on the rare occasions when you two have sex. Or be pretty damn sure that you don't pick anything up in your extracurricular activities.

73
Any word on chastity devices and uncircumsized men? I've tried to ask Dan before without any answer and have had trouble finding the answer to this on my own. Word is that it can be problematic. True?
74
NCSO---- talk to your wife!!!! PLEASE!!!! its hard, its painful, risky, and will be hurtful, BUT, she is your partner! She deserves the truth and your respect.
75
All you cheaters out there, its hard to find support, and I see a lot of stone throwers out there,even here. If you a looking for people who are *going through it*.....find us!

themarriedothers@gmail.com

Its amazing how good it is to bounce ideas off of anon. people who are GOING THROUGH IT!!
76
apollo11reporter....you get it! Thank you for your sane and wonderful post. See above, we would love to have you on board!

Those of you crying foul on us cheaters, I only hope for your sake you don't end up where we are. I was like you once...."blah, blah blah, who could do such a thing, just get a divorce..."

Ah, to be that young again, when the world was black and white, and I knew everything. Hello, marriage is about so much more then sex. I tried *everything* to improve....sharing fantasies, roleplaying, swinging; just, for the love of god, PLEASE satisfy me!!! I love sex and really want to make regular partner orgasms a part of my life. I even told hubby "if things do not change, I am going to cheat". They didn't, so I did.

I found a man who makes me feel sexy and vibrant and alive, and makes me come like nobodies business. He has taught me things about my body I didn't know were possible.

How dare you judgemental pricks who have never walked in my shoes tell me the choices are so easy. "Oh just talk to him." FUCK YOU, I have. "Oh, just leave him" Rip an entire family apart because I am not coming? Again, fuck you. I found another married man with the same problem, and we have been screwing each other's brains out for going on 8 years now. Is it always easy? Of course not, life never is when you take your clothes off. But to imply we are inheriently evil, or are options are simple....walk a mile in our shoes......in my case, my lover and I are just trying to do what we can to be happy, yet make sure no one gets hurt.
77
@72 I agree on your assessment of 60. I wouldn't call his situation cheating.

I think his wife has tacitly given him permission to pursue an open relationship, but just doesn't want to know or have anything to do with it.

If sleeping with another person would be devastating to your partner(and potentially lead to divorce), then yes it would be better to get divorced than cheat. But with 60, I think there might be some uncomfortable feelings, but not devastation if his wife knew what he was doing.
78
Astonishingly dull letters!
79
Dan,did you hear about the article in the Pittsburgh Tribune Review dated 10/23/2010. Couple charged in trust fund theft donated 1,000 dollars to the Santorum Victory Comittee.
80
I have to go with # 76 on NCSO. Communication is good - He should tell his wife (in a caring and honest way) how bad things have gotten for him, and what his needs are.

But If she can't (or doesn't want) to meet his needs, that doesn't need to be the end of being parents together, or even living together (tho for some reason, people chose to lock all these things together). But if she can't meet her partner's reasonable needs, I seriously question her right to stop them from getting his needs met elsewhere.

Now if this guy does have sex with someone else, he should be honest about it UNLESS their sex life is completely shut down, just so that she knows what health risks are in play, and can decide for herself in an informed manner. If they've STOPPED having sex, her jurisdiction is over.

I detest dishonesty, but I also detest the idea of marginalizing someone's sexual needs - someone who is totally sexually dissatisfied should not be told to 'get over it'. For many people sexual enjoyment is one of the best parts of life - that's not immature, it's human. If you're not one of those people, that's fine, but don't pretend there's something wrong with placing sexual needs high on your list of dealbreakers. 'Get over it?' Really?

And as far as 'cheating': Relationships change, and people need to stop overromanticizing things and cultivating suffering. He has an obligation to be honest with his wife, and to not put her health at risk, but suffering for another 30-40 years because she's unwilling or unable to meet his needs is ridiculous. And as several people have already said, divorce may have far more consequences and hurt far more people than just getting laid elsewhere.
81
Hah! Beating children with a bible tied to a rope...that was my ex-MIL (between doing lines of coke). Honestly, my advice: ditch the GF with the crazy family. Sorry, I know that's cold and the "sins of the father" and all that, but really, that stuff leaves all sorts of emotional damage and crazy in it's wake.
82
Hey you self-serving twats -

Some women need monogamy. (As do some men.) It's far from unnatural. Many choose it.

Personally, I think it's normal and natural, at least for women.

And under that paradigm - I find it very interesting that the two women who are willing to share letterwriter #1 - you know, the guy whose attitudes towards women were formed by a dad who told him at age 12 how to eat pussy - were both horribly emotionally abused throughout their lives and still feel desperately dependent on outside approval.

I'm just sayin. Well, actually, I'd like to start the discussion from an alternate pov. I love Dan Savage, I love Be Who You Are, but I also love Don't Kid Yourself. And frankly, it's bad for holdouts like me when women who would rather have an equal relationship instead sell out and settle for half of a man (at most). OK, I accept that MAYBE the two women are happy as can be - but given their history, is ANYONE willing to acknowledge that MAYBE they're setting and kidding themselves??!
83
Hey,

Quick comment for those into chastity.

There is a better device than the CB 6000. It's one called the Birdcage. I know people who have worn one for over a month and it's been nothing but comfortable.
84
Hey,

Quick comment for those into/curious about chastity.

The CB 6000 is good but there is one called the Birdcage which is becoming very popular because of how comfortable it is. I know someone who has worn it for well over a month.

Just thought I'd share!
85
I'd personally like more details on NCSO and what his attempts at getting more sex are. And just for fun what the "one of two ways" are. It'd be pretty great if it were "missionary" and "at a swing event".

86
#82 -

First of all, the letter only indicates that the girlfriend has an abusive mother. The wife's mother sounds like a real bitch, but so are plenty of parents, and that doesn't mean we should refer to all of their kids as abuse survivors.

Second, who's to say that the two women are only interested in the man, and "sharing" him is all they're getting out of the relationship? In many triads, the partners all get it on with each other - and I wouldn't be surprised if that's what's going on here.

Third, the girlfriend is an adult, and she's not (so far as we know) subjecting herself to abuse or mistreatment now. I see no reason to second-guess her choices, just because she happens to have had an abusive mother.
87
NTTWT: Dan's right to suggest you wait until you know which aspects of your marriage will be long-lasting before disclosing anything to her parents. Meanwhile, you and your wife should have a very blunt talk about what she hopes to accomplish by telling them, and what the actual outcome is likely to be.

If you meant to write that your wife doesn't like keeping secrets from her parents, and would rather get the sh!tstorm over with sooner than later, that's a fair point. But her desire to direct the course of her relationship with her parents should be balanced by a desire not to poison *your* relationship with her parents any further than it already is. IOW, if your wife insists on telling them, she should make it *very* clear to her parents that this is a choice she has embraced willingly, and not an arrangement that her "thieving junkie" husband foisted on her. Her mother will want to see you as the bad guy who corrupted her innocent daughter, and it's important that your wife not tacitly allow them to demonize you in some clumsy attempt to make them like her better.

If you meant exactly what you wrote: eventually your wife has to come to grips with the fact that her narrow-minded mother will never approve of the life you've chosen to build together. Among other things, being an adult means owning your own choices, and not looking for approval from people who won't give it to you. Telling her parents something that they are almost certain to take very badly, and then getting hurt and upset when they express their disapproval at every possible opportunity for the indefinite future, is not a good plan.
88
There is a big difference between sex outside of a relationship, and cheating on the mother of your children. Cheating is not just sex, it is lies and conspiracy with another person. It is not sex which causes the horrible, gut wrenching feeling of shame, betrayal and fear which comes with finding out about an "affair" (and she will find out... and the longer it takes, the longer she is lied to, the worse it is), it is having the stability of your family literally stolen from you without your knowledge or consent.

I had a good sex life with my husband. I was GGG all the way, even when he was too uptight to be. I stood by through two years of unemployment, tried to be supportive and hold my family together. When I found out he had cheated, I was hurt but hey, I've been in open relationships. I've been in poly relationships. I can deal with sex, and I could understand why he did it. He said it was a one time thing, and our marriage was briefly much better. Nearly a year later I discovered it had never ended, that the lies had been myriad, elaborate and grotesque. She wanted him to marry her. She said she was pregnant. He planned to leave me, but never did until I finally threw him out. They made plans together which included her buying me out of our apartment, her giving him a job (never happened, he is still unemployed), and the two of them getting custody of my two children. After I ended the marriage his relationship with her lasted just over two months before she went all fatal attraction and I had to threaten restraining orders.

So I get a little bit sick when I read about how people shouldn't allow sex to break up marriage. I didn't. It was the lies and abusive way I was treated that did that. I didn't want to make my children go through divorce, but in the end I thought it was better that they not be raised by a mother that allowed herself to be treated like she was worthless. A year and a half later I have a good job that supports my two kids (Thank you Obama Stimulus Program and SFJobsNow). I have found the man who loved me since college and waited for me for nearly 20 years.

He is still unemployed and lives with his mother.

Think about that when you decide to cheat rather than be honest.
89
There is a big difference between sex outside of a relationship, and cheating on the mother of your children. Cheating is not just sex, it is lies and conspiracy with another person. It is not sex which causes the horrible, gut wrenching feeling of shame, betrayal and fear which comes with finding out about an "affair" (and she will find out... and the longer it takes, the longer she is lied to, the worse it is), it is having the stability of your family literally stolen from you without your knowledge or consent.

I had a good sex life with my husband. I was GGG all the way, even when he was too uptight to be. I stood by through two years of unemployment, tried to be supportive and hold my family together. When I found out he had cheated, I was hurt but hey, I've been in open relationships. I've been in poly relationships. I can deal with sex, and I could understand why he did it. He said it was a one time thing, and our marriage was briefly much better. Nearly a year later I discovered it had never ended, that the lies had been myriad, elaborate and grotesque. She wanted him to marry her. She said she was pregnant. He planned to leave me, but never did until I finally threw him out. They made plans together which included her buying me out of our apartment, her giving him a job (never happened, he is still unemployed), and the two of them getting custody of my two children. After I ended the marriage his relationship with her lasted just over two months before she went all fatal attraction and I had to threaten restraining orders.

So I get a little bit sick when I read about how people shouldn't allow sex to break up marriage. I didn't. It was the lies and abusive way I was treated that did that. I didn't want to make my children go through divorce, but in the end I thought it was better that they not be raised by a mother that allowed herself to be treated like she was worthless. A year and a half later I have a good job that supports my two kids (Thank you Obama Stimulus Program and SFJobsNow). I have found the man who loved me since college and waited for me for nearly 20 years.

He is still unemployed and lives with his mother.

Think about that when you decide to cheat rather than be honest.
90
Apollo - people dare suggest breaking up over a fundamental incompatibility because it's usually the most humane and rational and loving (ultimately) thing to do. Granted you and your wife went into marriage from the worst environment to prepare you for it, but imagine if as soon as you were aware of sexual incompatibility, you set out to either remedy it or end the relationship. So you would have either fixed it, or been free to find more truly compatible partners. That would have made one hell of a lot more sense than ongoing suppression, guilt, and deceit.

You say it worked out wonderfully for you, then great. But suggesting it as somehow just what people do, as if there really is no alternative? Nuh-uh.

----
And I agree that all three in Poly Heaven sound enough like their relationship is a reaction to their weird upbringings for NITTWIT to not be so worried about informing their childhood abusers or how they'd take it.
91
To NCSO: Since you still love or have deep feelings for your wife, I'd chalk it up to guilt. Similar thing happened to me when nine months separated from my first wife. Despite the relationship being obviously over, I still cared for her and had not yet let go...boner deflator.

Once you resolve your emotional state, you'll get back in the saddle. Unfortunately, if you decide to divorce, such resolution will probably take a while. Good luck. I hope your kids don't get hurt.
92
I'd like to take this opportunity to thank my father for not teaching me how to eat pussy when I was 12

I'm speechless. One hopes his father didn't grab a live model for demonstration purposes...

Yeah. It's the little things in life to be grateful for, for sure.
93
bible on a rope = PINATA!!!! sorry folks, already made one! partay!!!
94
If one of the partners of the triad is waiting to allow religious fanatic parents to get use to the idea of “a long term relationship” she is committed to before she “comes out” as polyamorous, then she may find that she can never be open and honest with her own parents. She is the one who needs the time to mature enough and to become strong enough to realize that continuing to remain in contact with her closed-hearted parents does not make for a healthy parent to child relationship and to break all ties off with them.

When any member of my family cannot love me unconditionally, I cut them out of my life (I have found that my life is healthier and happier as a result when I applied this to my circle of friends). Although that hasn’t happen with the members of my family I have informed so far, because they love me for who I am and not for what I do WITH MY LIFE, they process enough love and respect for me not to criticize me even when they don’t relate to it or disagree with it personally. But I must say that I have applied honesty with them beforehand when I came out as a pacifist and as a Pagan, so it came as no shock to most of my family members when I told them that I was bisexual and polyamorous later on. I think that they suspected anyway, “Well, that’s Deborah!”. My grown son teases me by saying that I am weird, but that I was the “world’s best Mom” in his opinion.

It is how you love, not whom you impress, in this life that counts.
95
"She was a physically abusive nut job who beat her children with a Bible attached to a rope."

Wow, that's a new one! Gives new meaning to the term, "bible thumping".
96
To NTTWT:

This one is simple, Don't throw your Pearls before the Swine. Also, therapy for all individually and as a poly couple is highly recommended. Why? To work through the issues of Religious abuse and the resulting trauma. Also, being a twosome couple is difficult in the best of situations, being in a poly, well, just one third harder.

97
@19: While I respect your opinion on young marriages, I would like to say that many couples in my family and among my friends and acquaintances have married young and led healthy, happy marriages for at the very least a very long time, if not 'until death do you part'. While some young people may enter into marriage for the wrong reasons, there are a multitude who commit so deeply because they honestly feel that it is what is meant for them and their partner. All elephants are grey, but not all grey things are elephants. Just a friendly reminder.

That being said, I believe that NTTWT should wait to see if the relationship with this new girlfriend is even an honest poly or if it's just a passing fling. God knows we've all had those. If, in the future, she becomes an integral and steady emotional part of the relationship and they feel it necessary that their parents know, that is when they should 'come out', so to speak.
98
The hottest words in the world to a mom from the dad are "How may I help you around the house?". If more men knew that these words (and appropriate follow up!) constitute foreplay, a lot more of them would be able to stay home for the sex they crave after the work is done together!
99
I can personally attest to the existence of belt-and-bible whippings, in the life of myself and my siblings and a whole lot of the people I knew growing up in a fundamentalist state, so no, I don't think NTTWT is making that bit up. I wish it were so unthinkable that every mention of it would sound like fiction, but the scars on my back won't let me forget that this particular form of Christian Love is all too real.
100
@98 - please spare us the choreplay argument. Of course it makes sense for both partners to be cooperative and helpful.

But imagine what you're saying - if the guy does the chores and doesn't get the play. That happens. And in any case, an explicit trade of that sort isn't the basis for a loving relationship in my book. I'm happy that they should both be looking out for each other in whatever way means something to each other, particularly in partnered intimacy which cannot be substituted by hired help in an exclusive relationship. You can hire someone to do the chores.
101
Morticia328 @98: Nice, but you have the activities in the wrong order.

If you only have energy enough for either all the housework, or some housework and some sex, and you choose to put the housework first...well, you've just effectively said that sex with your husband is slightly less exciting to you than a clean kitchen sink. How would you like to be on the receiving end of that message?

You are also for all intents and purposes holding sex hostage to the housework. Sex has become not something you both enjoy and a bond between you, but a weapon that you use to control his behavior.

Both of these convey that idea to him that sex with him, purely for its own sake, does not appeal to you.

When someone comes along who actually expresses genuine enthusiasm about the idea of sex with him ... honestly, what do you think is likely to happen?

So, have the sex FIRST -- BEFORE you feel so exhausted by all the work. Seriously: sex is supposed to be something that improves your mood, not something that drains you. If it feels like a drain it's probably because you waited until you were already drained by other things, and then you blame it on the sex.

Putting the sex first accomplishes several things:
1) You are both doing it while you are still fresh, so it will feel like a good idea, rather than one more thing when you are already tired.
2) Good sex should energize both of you for other activities afterwards (like cleaning), rather than other activities draining you for sex.
3) Your husband will feel like sex with him is something that you actually enjoy, rather than a transaction (yes, a transaction: sex given in exchange for other considerations received; and what does that make you?) along with everything that implies about your relationship.
4) Afterwards the two of you should be feeling bonded and happy, which means your husband is a lot more likely to do the vacuuming and fold laundry with you cheerfully.
102
Couple of things:

to the housework argument: ideally, i think the concept is that a. she wants to put out but is too exhausted/stressed, and b.you want to help out more but dont (for whatever reason). Perhaps there should be less expectation on both sides and more attempts to do more for the other side, not because it might get them some or the dishes done, but because you love this person and want to help.

to the cheating discussion:
Your comments all seem to focus on how you feel. Its wonderful that you feel fulfilled and special and valued, but ill bet when/if your significant other finds out about it, not only will they NOT feel the same way, but they'll end it. And why is that? Because if they knew what you were doing, they would want out of the relationship. You're saying hey, how dare you tell me i should divorce him/her? Why should they not divorce you? Perhaps with someone other than you they could have a better relationship. Perhaps they dont find you attractive. Who knows. Note: this doesn't apply for significant others who don't really care about infidelity (secretly or not).