Savage Love

Three-wayward

Comments

1
The way HD talked about planning every move (and reaction?)of the 3-way just reeks of insecurity (as every controlling person exudes, in my experience); all that planning and then something unexpected happens... oops! Maybe he and his wife could do a switch in the D/s roles for a session and see how that works out. All I know is, whenever I try to control my life, it comes back and bites me in the ass (so to speak)... the need to control everything comes from fear. Letting go of all control as a sub to your wife once or twice could be enlightening!
2
..."Dan Savage is my rabbi"...


Get to it, Photoshoppers! And send me a t-shirt.
3
I've been involved in group situations where everything up to intercourse is fine, but something about the sight of my partner having full-on straight/hetero intercourse with another person freaks me the fuck out. It's normal, and it's ok to stop.

Being a melodramatic bitch isn't ok.
4
HD really should have storyboarded everything first. I hear that's what the Coen brothers do.
5
Why does it matter that ASS is a rent boy? Three wasn't paying, and he wasn't lied to about anything of substance. Just be as friendly as you would otherwise be, ASS, the next time you see him. If he brings up the other night's sex, you can just agree that was a fun time, without committing to more. Why does someone get to act "hurt or confused" just because a one-time sex partner is not interested in another go at it?
6
@5: That's a good point. Fucking someone you just met does not imply a commitment to more fucking in the future.

Random sex is random.
7
whoops, two-time. But still. What happens at the resort, stays at the resort.
8
ASS wants to come clean with Three because he doesn't want to be slick with someone with whom his relationship isn't his first priority. That's why I say the persistent principle in Dan's advice seems to be that you can be slick in your relationship if it's your first priority, you can make your relationship something other than your first priority if you aren't slick in it, but you can't be slick in a relationship that isn't your first priority.
9
Omg, I can't believe I'm just No. 7. And I can't believe I'm gonna grammar-pick the amazing Dan Savage -- and I'm sure I'll get skewered for it -- but ... In Dan's first response, the phrase is actually "champing at the bit," not chomping. It's what horses do when they are anxious or excited, and "chomping" is a common misuse of the phrase.

That said, that one incorrect little vowel is about the only thing I have ever found wrong with any of Dan's column.
10
Heartbroken Dom sounds like a fake letter to me - but the writing style made me laugh.
12
ASS's client sounds like a jerk, but Three must have known something was going on and he fell for it, so there is blame to go all around.

If it ever comes up where Three comes sniffing around for more sex, ASS should just tell Three that he is cockblocked or something. Tell him he thinks fooking (typo, but it works) around again with Three behind the (unbeknownst) client's back would make things too tricky (unintended pun, I'm on a roll!) with the mutual friend/client.
13
"Unicorn guy?" Is that something the (20-something year-old) kids are saying these days? 'Cause I like it.
14
Um. Before I get jumped on for the very thing I jumped on Dan for, I want to add an "s" to the last word in my comment. :)
15
Can we all please just stop with the candy coated euphemisms (rent boy, escort, companion, luggage lifter, etc) and just call these whores what they are....whores.

If you chose to make your living that way, I couldn't possibly care less as long as you don't do it in the street and scare the horses. But please don't posit yourself as something you're not. You're not good conversation. You're not good company. You don't move equally as well from a leather jock strap to a tux.

I am so sick of people bringing these mental midgets to dinner or otherwise social settings and expecting the rest of us to ignore the elephant in the room. Mainly, that he's there only because you're paying him to be.

How in the world can someone who has a "normal" (for lack of a better word) job and relationships be expected to have anything in common or grounds for conversation with these jokes. I'm sick of it. Everyone that I know who has had to suffer one of these twits is sick of it.

And from this letter, both the whore and the john sound like complete and total creeps. The day after, when he's betrayed someone's trust in one of the worst ways possible, he develops an attack of conscious. How fucking convenient.

Hopefully Three didn't catch something from this shore ditch that can't be treated.
16
Word usage nazi @9: As a fellow word usage nazi, I must beg to differ. "Chomping" is just fine too. It's a matter of dialect. "Champing" and "chomping" are both onomatopoeic and mean the same thing.
17
HD - sorry, but no sympathy here. You and your wife had something really good, but then you decided that no matter how good it was, it wasn't good enough. You basically got greedy and overreached, and now you can't un-ring the bell and go back to the way things were. That's what happens when you play grown-up games: sometimes they take us by surprise and show us that we don't know ourselves as well as we thought. You literally made your own bed, so now lie in it and stop complaining.
18
@15 I call sex workers whatever they want to be called. And I have enjoyed having dinner with the ones I have met, at least as much as I enjoy dinner with the lawyers I dine with more frequently. That's not a high bar to pass, of course.
19
@15: Anyone can have something in common with anyone else, regardless of how either party makes their living. Does getting paid to fuck preclude good taste in music or art or a genuinely kind personality or sense of humour? No. But whatever the hell you do apparently does.
20
amen.
21
@15: When friends bring sex workers to important social events and expect you to make awkward conversation, that's a reflection on your friends, not sex workers in general. Do not hate on the sex workers who are just doing their job. Hate on the "friends" who have the poor taste to subject sex workers to awkward conversations with stuck-up trolls like you.

@10: Heart-broken Dom in not a fake letter. Sad to say, I have Dom friends who talk just like that :)
22
p.s. I'd like a 'Dan Savage is my rabbi' t-shirt.
23
@15: Actually, the whores/rent boys/escorts/etc. I've met are pretty interesting people. When your job is to be interesting, it's unsurprising that you become good at it. My sense is that the ones you meet are keen to your overwhelming sense of moral superiority, and don't waste their time trying to charm you.

You want mental midgets? Try going to any function that involves inherited wealth. Those fuckers not only don't know shit, but they're too stupid to know that they don't know shit. When everyone around you is kissing your ass, you don't realize that you're a twit.
24
I figured that my comment would bring on a shit storm of criticism, and I'm prepared for that. But until you've been forced by work politics to have dinner and interact with people who should aspire to vapid, you're really in no position to criticize.

Personally I believe in the sovereignty of the individual and I think prostitution should be legal. But let's be honest. As a rule, they're not the "hooker with a heart" that you see in movies, or the educated socially graceful geisha of times past. If you seek the company of a "sex worker" (is that better?) good for you both, but just keep it behind closed doors.
25
@ 15, I think what we're sick of is airheads. sex workers aren't necessarily airheads. I actually find it''s hair extensions and constant gum chewing that are usually the better indicators of intolerable people.
26
@1 Penetration WAS planned. He was just freaked out a bit. Whatever. He wasn't built for 3-ways. He needs to get over it.

But, I have this amusing image in my head of his wife petting him saying he was a brave boy...like a parent to their kid getting a shot from the doctor.

@15 Most idiotic comment ever. OK, not really...but, it was truly pointlessly self-aggrandizing to the point that nobody should want to meet you.
27
@15 Your mistake, of course, is to generalize - painting a whole category of people with the same brush. I suspect you know better and that you're yanking this thread. But since I started, I'll finish: I used to be a hooker. I've been paid to piss on people and masturbate in public. I also have a college degree and have had other careers. I have enjoyed conversations with a Senator, a 4-star General, and world-famous conductor. I once rode in an ambulance to the hospital with a complete stranger because she was scared and had nobody to comfort her. I have had my letters published in the New Yorker and the New York Times. I have spent days in the museums in Paris, Madrid, Florence, and Amsterdam. I have spent nights in jail for protesting against the government. I'm neither a genius nor a neurosurgeon. I'm just a human being with a point of view. And I really enjoyed being a hooker.
28
Geez, you all are being so effing hard on HD. Can't a twentieth century dude express fear and anxiety at this point? So maybe he's got some insecurity issues. So maybe his trio should have started smaller, and worked their way up to full intercourse.

But have some sympathy for the guy. You can plan your actions and even the actions of consenting others but you can't plan your own reactions, especially your own emotional reactions. I'm sure we all know the feeling of "the air being sucked out of the room through your soul," like when you see your ex, whom you're still trying to get over, with their new lover.

What I would say to HD is to be eternally grateful that your friend and especially your wife were so sensitive to your needs during this fiasco. Your wife knew that you needed to feel sexually adequate so she made love to you the next morning. So thank her by trying again, with baby steps.
29
Based on all the words like "many conversations," "expectations," "stipulations," "mentally prepared," et cetera, I'm guessing that HD was never really into the idea of involving another man in his wife's sex life in the first place. Rather, he got talked into it over the course of the last two years, and all those "stipulations" were around making him "comfortable" (interesting that that particular word was absent) with something he didn't want. Chances are pretty good that the idea was sold to him under the banner of being the Dom, to persuade him that he would at least be in full control -- hell, it would be happening at his command, so he could hardly claim it was against his will. Likewise his wife calling him "brave" tells me he probably had reservations the whoe time, and everybody knew it. (@26: that was just mean.)

Wonder of wonders, when it actually happened, he couldn't deal with watching it happen. Gee, who could have predicted?

First, the lesson: don't agree to something that you are deeply uncomfortable with. GGG does not translate to violating your own boundaries for the sake of the other person. Push the envelope, yes; rip it in pieces and toss it in the trash, no. If anything, if the last two years played out the way I'm guessing, his wife should have concluded that his feelings on this subject indicated a likely unhappy ending, and not pursued it. Instead, he's had two years of wondering "Why does she want this so much? Why am I not enough?" and the act itself merely confirmed every one of his fears.

30
@5: You really don't see any difference between thinking you're fucking someone based on your own merits and fucking a professional sex worker because they're being paid?
31
Seattle just seems weirder and weirder every time I visit this site.
32
I'm not sure what to suggest going forward. I don't see those insecurities going away meekly and gently of their own accord at this point, whether or not they close the relationship back down.

I'm inclined to say that his wife owes him a MFF with another woman friend who displays at least as much interest in fucking him as his wife displays in fucking someone else.

(I have to admit, part of me wants to call the letter a fake, purely on the detail about not being big enough. Isn't that a classic cuckold fantasy fetish detail?)
33
Ok, I give up. What's a unicorn guy?
34
i'm super glad dan called HD out on the super DRAMA. sounds more like a whiny 18 year old boy rather than a 36 year old man.
35
at 33, i wanted to know that, too--thanks for asking
36
i'm guessing "unicorn guy" means he's such a rare type that most people don't believe he exists.

not to be confused with "Unicron guy", a guy whose drama and issues literally consume your entire world.
37
Now I know what I need to add to my OkCupid keywords...
38
@24 I've been forced by work politics to have dinner and interact with people who should aspire to vapid. I'm talking about the sort of people who make sure you know they are global travelers and go to the sort of parties you wear tuxedos to.

To me, the very definition of a vapid person is someone who can't figure out how to have an interesting conversation with a sex worker. That's just how I define that term.

We all have people we find insufferably boring. You are on a lot of lists yourself. Do not be deluded.
39
I think in this context, "Unicorn Guy" was used ironically as the male who was not interested in a MFF 3-way.
40
@38 yes, we're all on lists. Most of which we didn't even do anything to get ourselves put onto.
41
@38: "To me, the very definition of a vapid person is someone who can't figure out how to have an interesting conversation with a sex worker."

I think I'm in love.
42
ASS as a Rent-Boy you were contracted to lure and bait Three into the threesome with your Client. I only see that Full Disclosure after the fact is what would ease your conscience of guilt or remorse that you may feel, having deceived Three. It's either that or you would prefer that any future encounters that you may have with Three requires some type of Remuneration on his part as you've established that you are a Rent-Boy and that when you've received payment to play you don't ever play in the future without pay.

I often wonder about Sex-Worker's Protocol. Does the fact that you are getting paid give you and erection? Does sexual excitement only occur when you know that you are getting paid? If the sex is good enough do you consider freebies for any future sexual encounters? Can your economic needs be tossed aside by finding someone to aid in your emotional comfort? Is there ever a "Pretty Woman" Moment when the guy that you are with becomes your "Prince Charming"? Do you hold to strict categories for those who pay to play and those who are free or "freebie-d" and never betwixt the two shall meet? I don't seem to understand at all because obviously there is sexual excitement and some type of sexual attraction or chemistry to one another. So the fact that the first and second sexual encounters had payment; one can only preclude that all future encounter must be paid for?

I think that you should do what you were contracted to do and keep your mouth shout! Be a good little Rent-boy and keep silent after all you don't want to ruin any future potential clients that would hear that you were Loose with you tongue and not in a good way!
43
So, letter number one essentially boils down to "I freaked out when I saw my friend fucking my wife."

Contrary to the people here who act like you have a problem, your reaction makes you like 99.9% of the straight, married guys out there. Maybe, just maybe, you got into something that your wife wanted, but you didn't?

If you don't want your wife fucking your friends, or if you merely don't want to see it, don't pretend you do. Tell her you are not into whatever it is you are not into.
44
HD is such an entertaining letter writer that in part one wants to pat him on the head and lead him gently to the Kiddie Pool. Then again, it might be great fun to see how he'd be received by an anti-patriarchy set.

But mainly I wonder about the friend. What sort of person would be able to get through agreeing to that overproduced scene and being dominated and directed by HD for more than ten minutes without yielding to an irresistible urge to tie and gag HD and then place him in the corner in order to get on with the matter at hand without further blathering?

I don't wish the couple ill, but, unless the friend is as much a piece of work as HD, the friend and the wife seem much the better match. It would be helpful to know if the wife would call HD her soulmate; I can't get a convincing picture of HD's soulmate having brought the threesome about in the first place.
45
41 :D
46
Maybe I should have been more clear. I wasn't saying that escorts (I'll use the kindest term) aren't good people and aren't worth knowing. Everyone is worth knowing.

When they're off the clock.

I"m sure that @27 could probably talk circles around me regarding many topics.

@38 might be right. There might be people who find me a bore. No worries. No one is for everyone. It's not that I'm incapable of finding some common ground for discussion with nearly anyone. I just choose not to. My right. Just like escorts can chose to not speak with me if I'm unwilling to open my wallet.

I do find it interesting that so many people are so eager to jump down my throat for expressing an opinion. I didn't criticize a characteristic that's beyond someone's control. I'm sure there are people who are in this line of work because they simply feel they have no other choice. But every one that I've ever met did it because of pretty shallow, vapid and lazy reasons. And if you're going to be a hooker, then you better be prepared to have people think of you as such.
47
"sounds more like a whiny 18 year old boy rather than a 36 year old man."

Yeah, because if he doesn't behave as you prefer, his manhood is void, right?

God, I hate that sort of name-calling: A woman likes sex? She is not a woman, she is a WHORE! A man acts in ways I don't like? He is not a man, he is a BOY! You don't agree with politician X? You are not a decent person, you are a nazi/socialist/bee-keeper/etc!

Stop denying people's basic human status as a man or woman just because they don't toe your utterly immaterial, wholly subjective lines.
48
@36 Thanks for the Transformers reference!
49
@30, people get into bed together for a million million reasons. Once I'm in bed with someone, I enjoy myself and try to show the person a good time, regardless of who is paying whom in what kind of currency.

If I have a gourmet dinner at a friend's house cooked by a chef, I don't care if the chef did it for friendship or for money. I respect their craft and enjoy myself.

50
Global Traveller....I know you retracted...but I had to chime in here as another woman with a "past". Although you would never know it know (just a bit of suburbia these days, along with my two, yes count them TWO graduate degrees), I used to do sex work as well in my youth.

But, I assure you, with a client, I doubt you would have even been able to spot me as such. I blended.

Perhaps I was your hooker (or S/M worker, lol) with a heart of gold? Or very intelligent, well educated one at least, able to converse on many a topic....and yes, I will agree with the above poster...I would bet sex workers can tell some *amazing* stories....much more so then the typical "how big is your bankroll" bragging of corporate yawners.
51
@16 I don't think nazi means what you think it means.
52
@48

thanks for noticing. somehow I doubt "Unicron Guy" will find its way into the Savage Vernacular. unless there are way more fellow nerds here than I realized.
53
@ SG

I hate you. I hate your perfect three way. I hate Dan Savage.

You all go to hell and you die.

j/k
54
Global Traveller, you know who you sound like? You sound like this: "I've met faggots before, and they're disgusting perverts, obsessed with sex, all the them. Sure, they can have their own sex lives, I wouldn't make what they do illegal, but all of them, and I've met them, are sleazy deviants."

Except, just as the bigot above has, unbeknownst to himself, met many, many gay people (has socialized with them, eaten with them, and perhaps even fucked them!), you too have met many sex workers -- and never realized it.

And I feel sorry for the vapid, silly people you have met whom you have classified in your head as "sex workers".
55
HD is a drama queen, but it is a cautionary tale. For whatever reason, couples need to test their other partner's love. HD consciously or subconsciously wanted his wife to draw the line, and this whole thing was set up in his head to be a test: "If she loves me, she won't fuck this guy even if I give her my permission." She failed this test that he created for her; and it was an unfair test on every level. Nobody was blissfully married in this scenario. HD was still waiting for his wife to prove her love by passing some test--refusing the offer of another man's throbbing cock. For all I know, the wife was testing HD, "he won't agree to a three way if he really loves me." These are dangerous tests. And it was a fail on every level.
56
"Moral Superiority"?. Hardly. I'm one of the "faggots" to whom @54 is referring

"Inherited wealth"? I work my ass off every day as I have since I was in junior high school, and I help take care of my parents and niece.

Maybe I've never had the good fortune to meet someone engaged in this line of work that was as fascinating and charming and intelligent, etc as the rest of you apparently have. Good for you, and my loss. But I'm tired of going to work every day, paying taxes, donating to charity, and all the things that a guy from a good middle class family does to try to be a productive member of society does and then having to listen to "one of these" dangle their latest bauble in all the working stiff's (pardon the pun) faces when all they did was spread their legs.

As liberal as I am it's simply a case of NIMBY, and I'd be willing to wager that most people would feel the same. How many of you really want to live next to a whore house? If you're not willing to have them standing on your street corner and picking up johns, then we at least share the same sentiments. It's simply a matter of degree, IMHO.

To those of you out there that "blend in" and are "classy and educated" (the parenthesis are not intended as sarcasm, btw) then I'm truly sorry if I offended you. LIke one poster said, I would never have known. You don't owe me or anyone else any effort to be accepted.
57
46 "I'm sure there are people who are in this line of work because they simply feel they have no other choice. But every one that I've ever met did it because of pretty shallow, vapid and lazy reasons."

I'm sorry but I am still unsure as to where you think you get off....

You can only respect prostitutes who do it for whatever you deem to be the *right* reasons? Do you judge everybody you meet on the quality of their reasons for choosing the career they are in?

I will go in the other direction. I respect people who sacrifice their earning potential in order to work for the greater good. Something tells you're not exactly doing appendectomies for Medicins Sans Frontiers.

However, I would have to think a career is immoral in itself in order to think you should only do it out of sheer desperation. But you claimed not to think that? What the what?

Can a reason be vapid?

You have completely lost me.
58
Maybe if they legalized sex work, it make take some of the stigma away, and hell, it would certainly generate income if the workers were taxed, lol!

I was just disgusted at not being able to find a job after graduating college for more then a lousy $7-10/hr, and having the brains I did, I realized that even though I am not gorgeous, I am seductive, and men like my company. $150/hr for merely my company sure as hell beat temping....if you wanted the clothes tom come off, the prices went up from there. I do think there are an awful lot of misguided stereotypes out there of people who enter the sex trade. Sure, I know some of the people might fit the mold of the drug addicted crack whore, but those were the minority in my circle. I would imagine those to be more of the truck stop girls, lol. Guys willing and able to pay my prices wanted someone who wasn't dirty and who could stimulate the biggest sexual organ, the brain. And I wasn't even a top rung girl, because I wasn't model pretty, like the girls who service the famous politicians and athletes.
59
I'm just wondering where Global Traveler lives that he's met so many sex workers, and if there are any apartments for rent in the neighborhood.
60
I think that if you go through all the trouble of planning the three-way you should talk about the possibility of a bad reaction before you actually go through with it. Have a safeword or whatever. That way you have a mutually agreed upon course of action if it doesn't turn out to be like you thought it would be.

Also, a lot of fantasies are better left as fantasies. Not all fantasies work in real life. I think that it's better to experiment before you take it to the level of threesome. Dip your toe in the water to see how it feels before you jump in all the way. I experimented with some beginners level kink (making out with another woman, group oral) and found it wasn't so good that I wanted to do it again. Then recently, I experimented with some bdsm and found it is something I like and might like to explore.

Maybe before you plan for a threesome, it would be a good idea to run a few trial experiments without having intercourse. That way you get to know what your comfort levels are and if you think you would be ok with taking it further. Threesomes aren't for everyone and I would bet that even experienced kinksters probably use their safewords from time to time.
61
I'm guessing GT would be bothered as much by a professional football cheerleader being brought to a state dinner as a sex worker. I think he may not even realize it but it's not the money but the ridiculousness of the couple.

I was a sex worker back in the day and often catered to guys who didn't want to feel like they were with a whore. During one encounter I stopped riding a guy because there was a news report on about China joining the WTO and I was lost in the news and the guy took me out to dinner after and bought me a shitload of clothes and set up a ton of future dates because he thought that was the hottest thing ever. I was studying modern Chinese history at the time and it just caught my eye. I didn't realize until later he was an economic advisor to Asian trade specialists. Some 10+ years later long after I've retired to the burbs as the lawyer and uni prof's wife and gained 30 lbs and had four kids and three dogs, we still keep in touch and are FB friends and yak on the phone a couple times a month.

Now ASS, I am wondering if your letter is real. For many reasons. I don't know of any sex worker who would be upset by this. I'm also wondering what world we live in where gay men are questioning how to handle random sex the next day. I'm thinking YOU actually had a thing for the guy or something because why would you behave any particular way? The guy probably assumed you and client were casually dating, all you need to do is be cordial and civil. Since when does a random three way = dating after? You got some sex, you're done now. Why would you give a "cold shoulder" anyway? Weird letter. You wouldn't be the first man to be all casual once you finally boned the object of lust.
62
This has gotten so far off topic. My first post was in response to a prostitute and john who both lied to an innocent third party for the purpose of getting him into bed. Surely at some point between "Hi, nice to meet you." and the clothes ending up in a pile on the floor, Three must have said something along the lines of "What do you do for a living" or "How do you two know each other".

I'm not suggesting that anyone is under any obligation to disclose that they're there on a for hire basis as a matter of course, but when you're getting ready to crawl into bed with someone, then they're entitled to that information so that they can make their own informed decision.

It's no better than a married man removing his wedding ring and cruising a singles bar and picking someone up without disclosing that tiny little detail.

I don't see how you can defend that kind of deceit.
63
Global Traveler the more you talk, the more you sound like a hater. "I worked so hard all my life, and all they did is have sex and they get money! Wah Wah Wah."

Welcome to the way the world works always,ever. If you get pissy everytime someone brings a trophy date around, you must be the world's angriest man.

If you don't like your friends bringing their "dates" around, tell them. They're likely to know you as a person and not as a pissy-sounding judgy mcjudgerson with a chip on their shoulders about "whores", and listen to you.
64
Global Traveler the more you talk, the more you sound like a hater. "I worked so hard all my life, and all they did is have sex and they get money! Wah Wah Wah."

Welcome to the way the world works always,ever. If you get pissy everytime someone brings a trophy date around, you must be the world's angriest man.

If you don't like your friends bringing their "dates" around, tell them. They're likely to know you as a person and not as a pissy-sounding judgy mcjudgerson with a chip on their shoulders about "whores", and listen to you.
65
So many commenters are inferring that HD was doing this under duress or should have known better. Have you never been surprised by your own reaction to something? It's a totally understandable way to respond to a situation that you've never been in before, because you have no frame of reference.

It sounds like he did excellent due diligence in planning this thing, and was totally in touch with his own feelings about it, up to and including the moment those feelings took an unexpected turn. He also did it with extremely supportive partners, who abandoned the plan and tended to his needs as soon as he broke character.

To HD.... Chalk it up to a lesson learned and a boundary identified. And kudos to you for finding your boundary rather than assuming it's there and never daring to experience something you're curious about.
66
@62

"but when you're getting ready to crawl into bed with someone, then they're entitled to that information so that they can make their own informed decision."

I haven't really had a problem with what you've been saying, but I have to disagree with this. A random guy came up to Three and started flirting with him, then Three went back to his room for a threeway. Three ain't "entitled" to shit. He decided he was horny, he knew there are always risks associated with sleeping with someone you don't know, he did it anyway.

We all know humans are capable and usually inclined to lie a bit, especially when sex is involved. In your example of a married man removing his ring to cruise singles bars, let's say he goes to a bar, meets a woman, they flirt a bit, then go home for some sex. Did he wrong her by pretending to be single? NO. NOT AT ALL. if she cared about something like that, she wouldn't be having sex with a guy she just met at a bar.

it's one thing to decieve someone you're in a relationship with. but if i tell a random girl i meet at a bar that i'm a doctor and we end up fucking that night, she doesn't get to complain if she finds out I lied about being a doctor. she's perfectly entitled to decline further encounters, or even tell her friends about my lying ways, but she can't really complain that I "tricked" her into sex by misrepresenting myself.
67
More like HD should have written this up on Fetlife's Novices and Newbies group, and got cuffed for melodrama there. MMF penis-in-vagina as Insecurity trigger isn't Varsity level sex, it's Post-Grad psych that goes beyond being in love with the idea but blindsided by the reality of it and maybe sidetracking into why cuckholding is different from cuckqueaning to HD's inner hypocrite. HD, I knew a gal half your age who's response to that was DTFM; however, you have a supportive partner, now go get support and advice from your scene - people twice your age are just starting out and knowitalls half your age think they're fuckin' experts: don't ask Dan, Ask a Dom.
68
Thanks, Dan, for your amusing Bronte sisters reference in your answer to Heartbroken Dom. I think this piece of fourth-rate fiction writing would make an excellent entry for the annual Edward Bulwar-Lytton contest. Especially the overly-dramatic use of the single-sentence, stand-alone paragraph "Then my wife was vaginally penetrated by our friend." HD might want to modify this slightly before submitting it to the EBL contest. How about "It was a dark and stormy night . . . then my wife was vaginally penetrated by our friend." I smell a winner!
69
So lying to get someone to sleep with you is okay, but not wanting to associate with people who do makes me a hater? Glad that's been cleared up. Saved me a fortune in therapy.

And they say chivalry is dead.
70
@68, love the dark and stormy night idea.

I think the best part about the standalone sentence was the juxtaposition of that serious, dramatic sentence followed by "I instantly lost my bone." He's got this melodramatic overwrought prose and then adds "bone" in there as a noun. That's like inserting dialogue from a Seth Rogen movie into a bad Jewel poem.

And guys, do 30+ year old men refers to it as their "bone"? I've used bone as a verb, as in "I'd bone that," but never as a noun, though I don't actually have a bone, as I'm a chick.
71
@69, you're losing it.
A. There's no evidence ASS lied. I don't tell one-night-stands my job before screwing them; why should he? If my friend serves me a bakery cake, has my friend lied to me because maybe I thought she baked it herself?

B. You don't want to associate with sex workers. Whether you associate with liars is not at issue.

Bottom line: you think sex workers are bad, diseased people, and if you had sex with one (for free) without knowing his/her history, that would piss you off. So-- I guess you'd better ask people about their sexual histories, then. And get to know them well enough to know if they're lying to you.

Me, I don't care if my partner is or was a sex worker. And apparently, neither did Third, or he would have investigated further. You don't get to assume people you meet are not and have never been sexually active.
72
@15,46 - Let me paraphrase you: "I'm tired of doing (insert what I think is right) and having everyone else do (what I think is wrong) and profit from it."

Cry me a river. Lots of people don't pay taxes, litter, cut in line, cheat, steal, double-dip, etc etc. You should do what you think is right, and that should be its own reward. If it's not, maybe you should try something else, and not worry/judge/attack the totally harmless job & sexual choices of others.

That said, sex workers do have ethics, and it's reasonable to question whether it's right to present a false front to purposely lure someone into bed. I don't think the other party is going to be particularly broken up about it, personally, but I would think about it too. Some people have weird hangups (15) about hookers, and if your weird morality prevents you from wanting to have sex with hookers/carnivores/smokers/Republicans, that's your right.

That said, sex is often complicated and can be emotionally tangled, but we still need it all the same. It's way more reasonable to do a pro, who knows exactly what they're up for, than a drag a civilian who may have expectations you can't meet into it. Like hey, you don't want a girlfriend, a fuck buddy, a friends with benefits? You want a girl who will fuck you, leave and then never call you again? Get a pro. It's not much more expensive than a night on the town picking up some random, and it's a lot easier to negotiate your particular sex preferences with someone who sells it for a living.
73
@72 Agreed. And if you don't want to have sex with hookers/carnivores/smokers/Republicans... it's your job to ask people if they fall into whatever weird category you hate.
74
@66:
In your example of a married man removing his ring to cruise singles bars, let's say he goes to a bar, meets a woman, they flirt a bit, then go home for some sex. Did he wrong her by pretending to be single? NO. NOT AT ALL.

Let me see if I can follow your logic: because people frequently lie when they are seeking casual sex, it is therefore perfectly ethical to lie when one is seeking casual sex.

. . . I guess your mom never explained why "but everybody else is doing it" doesn't justify behaving like a jerk.
75
I'm with EricaP and secretagent on the sex worker thing. Don't want to fuck hookers? Better ask first just to be safe. Same deal as not wanting to get HIV, not wanting to fuck Republicans, not wanting to fuck trust fundies, etc.

And I agree that Dan nailed a drama queen undercurrent in HD. But I'm not inclined to read into it that he was coerced, as some have (sorry avast2006, I often find you right on target, but I think you're reaching here). My guess is that he fell in that inevitable gap between Planning Everything Out Just So, and Actually Experiencing It.

Learning to relax, learning to swim in the shallow end first, learning that life is often best when it goes off-script (and that it inevitably will anyway) will all help. He may not have a problem with PIV nonmonogamy, he may have just pushed himself too far too fast.

But yeah, I'd like an anatomical diagram of where the soul is, because "It was as if all the air in the room was sucked out through my soul" sounds to me like he farted.
76
Unicorn Guy (aka Manicorn): the elusive perfect man.
77
The Ethical Slut has some great do's and don't's for three ways, etc.. I think all experimenting couples should read them before taking the plunge. Being over-prepared is definitely a sign of fear. The more rules there are to break, the more rules get broken, and the more hurt feelings come up.

When anyone freaks out during a scene, try not to make too big a deal out of it. It's ok to be scared, and if it's handled consciously, conscientiously, and calmly, you can even laugh those moments off later. Everyone freaks out sometime; you're not "special" for it. Take care of yourself so others don't get overtaxed, then ask for help if you really, really need it.

If you find you truly can't take care of yourself frequently, it may be time to consider working on your self-esteem issues. Hell, it's always time to do that.
78
C'mon! Men, women, everyone lies to someone to get them into bed! I'm not saying its okay but if we are talking about one night stands or same day hookups, are we really expecting the person we just picked up to be honest? Just have safe sex and enjoy the fuck.

And just where is Globe Traveler hanging out that his "friends" regularly bring their paid companions to dinner parties who are mental midgets? I find most Ladies don't offer that service, or if they do, its because they can more than hold up their end of the conversation.

As for the rent boy, you knew the assignment, either take the money and deal or say no. I don't think anyone should be expecting a follow up call from a one night stand threesome--unless maybe YOU fell for the trick. Its also very possible the guy knew or guessed and everyone was just being polite.

A big fuck yeah! @27 and @38
79
Does he think third should have gotten a check also? He could have split the check and the end of the weekend and say good day to you with a tip of the hat sir.
80
@71:

Your cake analogy doesn't really hold. Only a first-class neurotic would be deeply offended if the host served a store-bought dessert instead of something homemade. However, I think it's entirely reasonable not to want to have sex with someone who's being paid to have sex with you, and I think it's also entirely reasonable to assume that the person having sex with you is not being paid to have sex with you (unless, of course, you hired them yourself). By failing to disclose that he was acting in a professional rather than a recreational capacity, ASS knowingly withheld information that might very well have impacted Three's decision to have sex with him. And that's not cool.
81
Thank you SO much for running SG's letter. Finally, some validation from a major sex discussion medium that three-ways aren't always the forbidden fruit that will ruin the lives and relationships of everyone involved. I've had plenty myself, but when life goes swimmingly, it rarely makes headlines. :) Kudos!
82
@15: "he develops an attack of conscious."

The word you're looking for here, genius, is conscience. In a previous paragraph you had the nerve to call other people mental midgets. Well, maybe all of your hard work will allow you to afford a brain someday. I'm a sex worker, and I can certainly afford one of my own.
83
Another cheers for @36.

[Do Unicron guys have to sound like Orsen Welles?]
84
@74
"Let me see if I can follow your logic: because people frequently lie when they are seeking casual sex, it is therefore perfectly ethical to lie when one is seeking casual sex."

not exactly, I'm saying that if you're telling yourself that you're having casual sex with a person you just met the same night because of their job or life story they told you and not because of the physical attraction and sexual chemistry you feel with this person, you're lying to yourself. and if you ARE having casual sex with someone you just met because of "facts" they have told you about themselves, then you really don't actually care THAT much about said facts being true, do you?

"But Catface," you say, "what if you asked them if they were disease free and they lied about that?" Well, that sucks, but that's the risk you took upon yourself when you decide to have sex with someone you just met. Yeah, they're a shitty person, but it's a Shitty World and everyone knows it. We all know the risks, we just decide to push them to the back of our minds because we're horny and we just wanna feel good.

That's why you don't raw dog a random.
85
@83

They wouldn't be sexy enough to consume a girl's entire world if they didn't.
86
@82:
You know: an attack of conscious. It's when someone ordinarily mentally asleep suddenly wakes up mentally for a second.
But fortunately, it usually only lasts for a brief time
87
I just want to say that if HD really got to age 36 (and years of happy marriage) without ever visiting the land of Insecurity, he's a very lucky man. Some of us arrive there before we ever find a sexual partner, and then have to find love while we're there.
88
@86. Haha, awesome! Wish I had thought of that possibility. As rare as it is short lived, I assume?
89
I don't see where ASS owes it to the guy to confess. If the guy wants to have more sex with him later, and actually gets that hurt or confused look, can't he just say "It was Greg's idea" and kind of leave it there? Maybe even imply a lie in order to protect the client? "It was Greg's idea, I'm really not interested in one-on-one." (as if it's a monogam-ish boyfriend situation) It's truthful in the way that matters to the guy without being too shredding or outing his client.
90
HD - I fucked your woman, too. Don't worry, though, she still loves you.
91
"... Brontë sister after a three-day bender..."
Thanks, Dan, brilliant. I laughed my ass off.
92
1: "Can we all please just stop with the candy coated euphemisms (rent boy, escort, companion, luggage lifter, etc) and just call these whores what they are....whores."

2: "I do find it interesting that so many people are so eager to jump down my throat for expressing an opinion."

Expressing an opinion in a unnecessarily rude way is what I would call it.

And then having the audacity to pretend to be innocent and wondering why people respond annoyed for just 'expressing an opinion'. You are quite something.
93
Apparently "chomping at the bit" is now considered acceptable: http://www.word-detective.com/2007/03/01…

Good to know that's all you "have ever found wrong with any of Dan's column [sic]", though.

94
@15 -- It's an attack of "conscience," not "conscious."
95
Ooh, 'nother one:

@56 -- They are "quotation marks," not "parentheSES." ParentheSIS is the singular form.

Parenthesis (
Parentheses ()
Quotation marks ""
Apostrophe '

Hope this helps!
96
@82 & 86 -- I guess that'll teach me to read ALL the comments before jumping in! Perfect definition, @86.
97
@EricaP - I agree - don't assume you know who you're fucking, especially when you ah, just met them. I just meant that if I was in rent boy's situation, I would wonder if I'd done the right thing too. It's got to be a trip to have someone be totally stoked to fuck you, casually & just for fun, until they find out you actually get paid for what the majority of us do for free. Getting around is getting around, y'all. I would bet money that higher class hookers have way lower rates of sti than the general population anyway.
98
Part of the sex worker's art is to help the client persuade him/herself that the sex worker is actually attracted to him/her. For most people, it's not hot to imagine that the person you're with is in reality repulsed by you and is faking pleasure.

ASS used that skill to make Three believe he flirted with and slept with him out of attraction, as opposed to just wanting the money from someone else. That's deception, and it's not in the same category as pretending to be a doctor or single to get someone into bed - the person pretending to be a single doctor is still NOT lying about his/her attraction; that's why he/she lies! But pretending an interest you don't feel so someone else will pay you? That's not cool. ASS shouldn't do it again.
99
Sorry but I think Global Traveler has a point - though not about everything. I mean, if one of my friends brought a date/girlfriend/boyfriend/spouse to a group dinner who just happened to be a prostitute, that would be one thing. But if the date was a date because s/he was bought and paid for, and it was obvious that was going on, that's just creepy. If you hire a prostitute, you should have enough discretion to keep that to yourself. Having to make conversation with a sex worker is one thing. Having to do it while the sex worker is "on the job" for someone else sounds really awkward, and I think that's a perfectly normal reaction. Plus, wouldn't you like to go to dinner with friends and not worry that the cops will be busting up the place at any minute?
100
@99 said it better than I did. I'm sure that I've been in the company of discrete "professionals" many times without even realizing it. Because they were discrete. Unfortunately for me, I work in an industry where I'm surrounded by people with much more money than I and where professional dates are not uncommon. I try to avoid these functions, but sometimes that's just not possible.

It's probably like plastic surgery. The people who've had good plastic surgery go unnoticed. It's the ones that are done badly that get your attention.

You'd think from the comments that it's like The Chicken Ranch in The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas...populated by sweet innocents and overseen by Dolly Parton. I stand by my comment that most people wouldn't want to live next to an actual one.

and thanks for the grammar and punctuation lessons. not that that is really the point of posting on these boards, but if I was going to pick up this particular stone....
@15 -- It's an attack of "conscience," not "conscious."
101
Chase @75: No big deal, it's just what stuck out at me from the letter. (Although, FWIW, I said "talked into," not "coerced." In my mind there is a difference.)

I will admit to possibly projecting. I had a girlfriend a long time ago who tried to talk me into non-monogamy even though it really wasn't my thing. That situation also involved all sorts of negotiations and expectations and stipulations supposedly revolving around making me feel safe with the situation. (Most of which turned out to be lip service once I was out of the room, but I digress. It sounds in HD's case that he was treated in good faith by his wife and the friend.) Anyway, that's why the idea of two years' worth of apparently a lot of prep sounds to me like somebody needed some persuading.

Be that as it may, people should cut him some slack. Even if you thought you were totally enthusiastic going in, something like that can be a real punch in the gut, and there is no knowing for certain whether it will be until the moment you actually experience it. He's been dealing with this huge feeling for less than a day. Sure he's overwrought. Extrapolating that to mean that he's a drama queen in general is kind of harsh.