HD shows why some fantansies should remain fantansies. Regardless of how GGG they think they are, many people are surprized by how they react to the reality of their fantasy or their SO's fantasy. It is far too easy to forever change/damage a relationship through careless or ill conceieved words or actions. The unintended damage that is done can become permanent and all the regrets and goodwill in the world can never change the past. HD either learns to live with what happened and his emotional reaction or he needs to move on. It is real easy to say he shouldn't feel this way, but he does. He may well need professional help to get past this, but there are no guaranties. A big risk is that he will wind up in a negative feedback loop, endlessly replaying the scene in his mind. It sounds like he was traumatized and went into shock. This should not be trivialized. It could easily cost him a friendship and his marriage.

Wish granted...

Here's your Dan Savage is my rabbi t-shirt! You can customize it- right now it's on a black American Apparel t-shirt. 50% of the profits will be donated to The Trevor Project or the It Gets Better Project (Dan's choice- Dan, I'll email you as soon as the first sale happens)

http://www.zazzle.com/dan_savage_is_my_r…

Enjoy!

Wish granted...

Here's your Dan is my rabbi t-shirt! It's customizable and the default is a black American Apparel shirt. 50% of the profits will be donated to The Trevor Project or the It Gets Better Project (Dan's choice- Dan, I'll email you as soon as I get the first sale)

http://www.zazzle.com/dan_savage_is_my_r…

Enjoy!

@81 To state the obvious. Every individual is an individual, no situtation is the same, and what works swimmingly for one person is a disaster for another. One problem with giving/getting advice through an advice column is the lack of information provided and the assumptions made based on imperfect knowledge and understanding. Many people need or are looking for validation and affirmation of their actions/choices.

No one cuts through the B.S. like Dan Savage. I so love how he pegged HD in this column. Betcha HD makes good money, but his "friend" is younger and better looking.

We all have our hard limits, HD. Most people pull kids and poop off the table when sex is involved. No reason you can't take vaginal sex with your lady off the table in a threeway, too. Live and learn! It sounds like the scene ended immediately and hopefully no permanent damage was done to the relationship. Just be glad that you found out about your limit in a safe, controlled environment and implement it in the future.

The subtitle to "Dan Savage is my rabbi" should be "It gets better, boychick!"

@100 - I do get your feelings. You feel akward to be around someone who is faking an attraction because of money. OK, I guess I would too, though I would resent the client much much more than the badly-behaved escort.

But surely some of your wealthy business partners have married attractive people from a poorer background. How do you feel when you have to meet those, of these poorer spouses, who married very obviously out of greed?

While they have the wedding stamp, which society condones a lot more than the escort label, they still are in fact long-term and full-time heavily paid escorts, right ?

I don't mean to come out for or against global traveler. I can think of a lot worse people to have dinner with than a vapid rent boy (not saying all rent boys are vapid, I haven't really know many, and haven't known them well. I met one who seemed just about the smartest most sophisticated guy I ever met without him hardly saying anything, but he was the exception to the rule. Or maybe if he talked more he would have seemed vapid).

But GT did peg those vapid rent boys' ads pretty well with the "jockstrap to tuxedo" part and all the rest. My sense is that anyone tooting their horn like that must be pretty vapid and insufferable. I would say to GT to be polite and friendly to the rent boy, and roll your eyes till they need a retread at your friend/associate who hired him. He's the one who should be shamed for subjecting everyone to that awkward situation.

If you're paying for "companionship" by the hour, I just don't get why you would pay for someone to dress up for dinner and chat with people besides yourself. All I can figure is that is pure showing off. Showing off a trophy boy you want to make your friends think you got by your charm? Showing off that you have money to burn to pay a rent boy hundreds of dollars an hour to schmooze and knosh?

Whatever. I don't travel in such circles, but I wouldn't appreciate being subjected to that either. Either the rent boy is a twit and the situation is insulting. Or if he's hot and interesting, then that would just make me feel frustrated that I couldn't get or afford a guy like that, but my freaking associate the jerk can.

avast2006 @ 101: That's fair. The situation you describe is, unfortunately, not hard to imagine - I think there are probably a lot of examples of people getting copies of The Ethical Slut from their partners along with a lot of passive-aggressive "don't you want to be evolved and open-minded" pressure. Sounds to me like HD's case was more like someone trying anal sex without working up to it first, and I don't blame him for not being able to jump the high bar his first time out.

But one thing that sticks out to me, and that does contribute to the "drama queen" impression, is the fact that he wrote to Dan for advice the very day after this happened - not after a couple days of not being able to get over it or let go of it. HD wasn't in so much shock that he couldn't immediately think of a way to get even more attention from what happened.

Arrgh, apparently editing the comment before submitting it doesn't UPDATE the comment! What I meant to say:

avast2006 @ 101: That's fair. The situation you describe is, unfortunately, not hard to imagine - I think there are probably a lot of examples of people getting copies of The Ethical Slut from their partners along with a lot of passive-aggressive "don't you want to be evolved and open-minded" pressure. (I've gotten some of that myself from someone who, in reality, was probably much less comfortable with that stuff than I am.) Sounds to me like HD's case was more like someone trying anal sex without working up to it first, and I don't blame him for not being able to jump the high bar his first time out.

But one thing that sticks out to me, and that does contribute to the "drama queen" impression, is the fact that he wrote to Dan for advice the very next day - not after a couple days of not being able to get over it or put it out of his mind, not after feeling like his girlfriend or his stunt-cock didn't understand, not after any further repercussions from the incident. HD wasn't in so much shock that he couldn't immediately think of a way to get even more attention from what happened.

I have to confess to having had a somewhat similar reaction to that experienced by HD on our first try. I guess I then went through a period of introspection, after which (a year or so later) we tried again and it went much better.

@98 - Who said rent boy was repulsed? I know a bunch of hookers, and most of them have relationships with their clients varying from mildly annoying to genuine liking, respect and attraction. They genuinely love sex, and like many of the rest of us, can get a great deal of enjoyment out of it even if the client isn't their "type". But just because you enjoy sales, customer service, accounting, whatever, doesn't mean you don't want to get paid.

@103/104 –

Thanks, but this is more what I had in mind. Only better.

Discreet. Discreet. Discreet.

Damn it all to hell.

I feel better now.

Just read an article all about you in the Washington Monthly. It was kind of negative and I was pretty annoyed at the writer, mostly though, at the last line of the article. Anyway, Thank you for making the sex lives of people around the world so open and caring and wonderful. I for one truly appreciate this column.

@114

Right on.

It would be so easy to take the "Three-Way" situation and insert home furnishings into the same scenario. How many times have we all wanted, say, a new couch. We plan, we measure, we rearrange the room for said new couch.

We go to the store, ripe with anticpation, select the fabric (which is agonizing, because they never have the right color in the exact pattern that would be perfect) and we find the perfect fabric only to discover it is out of stock. We pick another and the order is placed. We spend WEEKS waiting for the couch.

Then it arrives. Then we move it in only to discover that it isn't as we had hoped it would be.

We can't take it back (no returns on custom orders) and it really doesn't fit anywhere well, or we don't fit in it well, and our living room is ruined. RUINED!!!!

Three ways and couches. One in the same.

Notice to the rent-boy about what stays in the resort and what lingers on: I saw a t-shirt online that said "What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas, except for chlamydia!"

Thank you, 114. I think there's an issue here about how much respect escorts/sex workers/prostitutes are due. Unless you are one of those vapid inherited wealth people, you've spent a whole bunch of your life doing things you wouldn't have done if someone wasn't giving you money for it. It's called a job. So have I, and even though there was one job I absolutely adored, I still wouldn't have done all that work if I hadn't been getting a paycheck.

So I think the distinction between me and a sex worker, between a doctor and a rent boy, is one of degree, not kind, and I cannot find it in me to look down on them. Especially not the rent boy I have an appointment with tomorrow afternoon. (Whoops! Gave the game away!)

I used to know a lesbian clinical psychologist specializing in couples therapy, both straight and gay. She was no fan of three-ways saying that the reality of a three-way is very different than the fantasy and that they could quite often lead to break ups. To be honest, she said that couples who had enjoyable three-ways would probably not seek her counsel. While I have never participated in a three-way, those that I have known about did not work out well.

because your friend entered your wife, your worry afterward is "is my dick big enough?" funny, when he was licking her clit, hd, you didn't wonder "is my tongue limber enough/long enough?" and when he was stroking her ass you didn't wonder "is my hand smooth/strong enough?" so, that's what it's all about, then--your cock. on the subject of their cocks, it seems to me that men are stupid stupid stupid and self absorbed, and at the expense of their partners. pity.

@29 had it spot on. Non-monogamy isn't for everyone, but if you read enough Dan Savage and your SO is pressuring for it, you could easily be convinced-- over time -- to give it a try. I love Dan's writings, but I know in my heart that non-monogamy of any kind would be irrevocably damaging to my marriage. I have learned that as a result of my outsized reaction to minor betrayals and lots of therapy to understand my abusive/neglectful childhood-- i.e., the hard way, but not the hardest way.

The issue, and the reason HD wrote to Dan so soon (drama-seeking aside) was that this forum is where non-monogamy is routinely normalized. HD is perhaps implicating Dan's modus operandi, or is urging him to consider those for whom monogamy is a psychological imperative. It is a shame HD had to discover his membership in this group in such a way.

I don't know why everyone is so hard on HD.

First, his writing style... perhaps he reads. You know--books. Dead trees? Those of us who read a lot tend to write (a) carefully and (b) in a style that is an amalgam of the styles that speak to us. Especially when we're writing about something emotionally charged. It likely isn't pompous; it's just how he learned to communicate with people whom he assumes are also educated.

Second, his dilemma: it seems to me that he tried something daring and had lots of fun right up to a certain point, and then he discovered a limit. What's the problem? He could perhaps ask his wife whether she wants to leave him because some other man has penetrated her (or for any other reason), and then get back to figuring out how much fun they can have while honouring boundaries. He knew he'd learn something--the fact that what he learned surprised him doesn't take away from the experience. He can probably expect the next try to be more successful.

Insecurity? If his wife can't convince him that she still wants him, then they need to figure out where trust failed (and as long as there's no trust, the relationship is doomed). If the problem is on his end, doesn't just about every relationship book ever have a chapter on insecurity? The chapter in The Ethical Slut might be especially relevant to him.

Gt, really? Are you trying to look dumb? Discrete, not discreet? These words have very different meanings. I wouldn't even bring it up, but for the fact that I'm one of those mental midgets you mentioned...

You're not nearly as smart as you think you are.

@5/7/11/61/66/78: Are you all suggesting here that the vast majority of people are or ought to be under the impression that an instance of hot sex, especially 3 way hot sex, is NSA and one night only unless specified otherwise? That's pretty cynical. One would think it would be quite the opposite, as a well-executed 3 way where fun-hopefully-even-when-sober-later times are had by all probably doesn't happen very often in the lives of most people. As such, said people might be bewildered if there was no further hot sex to be had and no apparent reason why. Not that this natural bewilderment ought to extend itself into any expectation of any flavor of "dating" or commitment or even friendship, but is a clear and kind albeit direct debriefing really above and beyond? And what @30 said. I make this point as someone who has had plenty of casual sex and sometimes one night stands with the vast majority of my partners before I committed to marrying one of them. The exception, not the rule, was to leave things "up in the air" either before or after.

@8 Mike Leung: I don't understand why you keep using "slick" like that. It's pretty clear from the dictionary definition and all the discussions we've had here that your syntax is at best a stretch. If you want to make a point to the group I think it would be best to use words that make general sense. If not, why post? This is not an attack. I'm merely curious.

@38 shw3nn: Well said indeed.

131: I read a book once by Edmund White, who said that during his many visits to gay bathhouses, he had some of the most intense, intimate, emotional, and highly cherished conversations of his life. Why? BECAUSE he was never going to see this man again. It freed them both up, totally.

I also think that HD, his wife, and their friend should try it again, probably after a cool-down period. They should review what happened: HD found that he couldn't handle what he'd thought he could. Lay new boundaries well within what he KNOWS he can handle, all promise to obey them, and try again. It's like what they say about falling off a horse, the best thing you can do is mount up again. (Boo! Pun! Boo!)

Whores are humans too, hunter78. That's what my clients love about me--they get to have sex with a sweet, lovely, genuine lady...and I'm quoting my own reviews. Try getting together with a decent whore sometime.

@ 125: I'm not buying your point. First of all, none of us knows why HD wrote to Dan so quickly, so the reason you give ("this forum is where non-monogamy is routinely normalized") is really your reason, not his. Second, I don't see why there's any need to "implicate" Dan - I don't believe Dan's ever claimed that everyone is or should be comfortable with non-monogamous relationships. That sounds like your agenda coming through. In fact I think Dan's been pretty consistent that people should be honest about their sexuality with themselves and each other - often that means admitting to an interest in non-monogamy, which is routinely stigmatized outside of this forum, and sometimes it means admitting to not being comfortable with non-monogamy and not going along with something just because your partner insists on it. In fact, I specifically remember Dan counseling someone in a relationship that was becoming long-distance that non-monogamy was not a requirement.

It sounds like you're blaming Dan for HD's "bad experience", which is unfair, especially since HD did not actually have a problem with non-monogamy - he was totally digging what happened up to the point where his soul was penetrated. So I don't think this is an example of someone being pressured into non-monogamy, I think this is an example of someone being uncomfortable with a particular aspect of non-monogamy (PIV sex) on a particular occasion (his very first time in a threesome). He'll have to figure out where his boundaries actually are now, but this isn't necessarily a sign that he and his "soulmate" have angered the Sex Gods and must never again meddle with Things That Must Not Be Fucked With.

@132 - Actually, I'm pretty sure the three men involved all thought it was a one-night stand. The Third did not make any effort to get ASS's contact info, and has not reached out to him. ASS is merely worried what to do if he runs into him. It is clear that his professional duty to his client trumps his desire to come clean with Third. If he doesn't like his professional duty to his client, he should stop being a sex worker. Or he should ask his client to explain the situation to Third.

Dear Dan, I'm writing to you as an editor about a word usage problem. I'm not a word nazi about spelling. I know the two meanings of discrete/discreet, but I don't know or give a damn which spelling goes with which meaning. It's just arbitrary. I'm not a fussbudget!
But lately the word "said" keeps coming up as an adjective. "Said rentboy", "Said dom". I'm really over it. Is this some sort of faux legalese from a cop show on TV or a courtroom drama show? Where and how did this outrageous usage that is simultaneously pedantic and fatuous become so commonplace seemingly overnight.
Make it stop! Isn't there some software that can scrub these people and their comments from the internet? Don't you have friends on websites and weekly magazines that could do something? This is worse than a santorum stain on your wedding dress. This is worse than the misused word "ironic". Please stop it!

112: Regarding HD writing in too soon for your taste: well, you can render that verdict if you want, but from my perspective, when people are freaked-the-fuck-out, they aren't thinking up cool-headed rational responses in terms of "I guess I had better sit with this a few days to see if it goes away on its own." Saying that he is writing in so soon as the attention-seeking device of a drama queen, in order to put himself in the center of the spotlight, is a stretch. More like it's the panic reaction of somebody who has been completely gobsmacked by what happened. Might as well slap the same label on a drowning swimmer.

@136 - Would it have been reasonable or wise to turn down the job in the first place? I did once do something that seemed similar in that it appeared to involve manipulated consent, and it was turned out to be really difficult. If I hadn't caught on that the other two were on the same page and I was really the one being manipulated, I'd likely have backed out.

@Hunter78...

Sssshhh.... the adults are talking.

@137: english language evolves. "said noun" is no longer considered wrong or pedantic. I know why it bothers you (it bothers me when people say that something "aggravates" them) but word usage changes, even faster in english than some other languages, so try to enjoy it!

@ Global Traveller: Is it possible that the sex workers who weren't obviously sex workers blended in so well that you didn't realize that's what they were? When you speak about sex workers being insufferable bores, maybe you were only counting the ones who were obviously sex workers, and excluding the ones who did a good job of fitting in because you didn't realize that's what they were.

Availability heuristic and all that jazz...

@ 138: I'm not rendering a verdict. I'm just saying it's one of the things that contributed to an overall sense that he might be a bit of an attention whore, which is a common enough interpretation that I don't think it's much of a stretch. Most people when they're drowning don't try to get on national television.

And before anyone makes the obvious point, sure, people turn to Dan for advice all the time, if they didn't he would have to make all this stuff up himself (hmmm...). My sense is that most people do it when they've exhausted their closer, more immediate options, or don't have any, and it's not as if either his girlfriend or his guy friend were unsympathetic. Advice columns, even in the internet age, tend not to give very immediate satisfaction. Not passing judgment, but it's definitely not inconsistent with drama seeking.

No one has suggested that HD and his wife try a MFF three way as a way to make HD comfortable with a MMF three way. I wonder how the wife would respond to that. The LW doesn't say, but I believe he implies that their marriage has been a mongamous relationship up to this point. I'm curious, does the three way constitute an openning of their marriage. That would add a whole new dimension to the situation. If they haven't discussed that,
could that be a underlying cause (conscious or unconscious) of his melt down and insecurity?

@16: I guess it's a matter of taste, but opinions are divided as to whether champing is truly onomatopoeic. The original idiom IS "champing at the bit." I know language changes through use and mis-use, but champing is recognized as "more" correct by a number of institutions and publications, including the Associated Press.

From the OED entry on the etymology of Champ:

Etymology: Only since 16th cent. Cham (chawm, chamb), champ, and the dialect chamble (Halliwell), appear all to belong to a primary chamb, apparently closely connected or identical with jam n.1 (jamb), and jamble, to squeeze with violence, crush. The group is not distinctly traceable outside English: the Swedish dialect kämsa /tʃemsa/ to chew with difficulty (Rietz in Skeat), Sanskrit jambha jaw, tooth, and Greek γομϕίος grinder, molar tooth, have been compared; but links are wanting.

Possibly the group is an instance of recent onomatopoeia: Wedgwood gives instances showing that cham(b), jam(b), are natural representations of the action or sound of the jaws in diverse and distant languages.

@146: As far as I can tell, HD's wife IS the closer, more immediate option. Problem is, she is also the problem. When you feel like a person is saying one thing to you in order to be reassuring, but acting inconsistently with that, more reassurances from that person don't go very far.

@147: see #32. Personally, I would like to hear exactly what form his insecurities are taking, because that would provide some indication of what sort of response would alleviate them. I am guessing that they generally sound like "She wants someone else because I'm not good enough/big enough/skilled enough/hot enough." Having him experience multiple women being hot for him would go a long way towards balancing out the idea that he's kind of ordinary and his wife therefore needs more than just him.

I'm wondering whether HD is still reading, and would he care to comment further?

What's all the hate for the Bronte sisters amd sensitive literate guys? Y'all are pretty mean.

Hang in there, Brokenhearted Dom.

It Gets Better...I guess.

@149:

Ooh, interesting. The Japanese word for "to bite/chew" is "kamu"; I wonder if it derives from the same onomatopoeic principle.

News flash: EVERY field has insufferable bores in it. EVERY field has charming, fascinating, compelling people in it. The [fill in the blank: escort, trust-funder, janitor, whatever] who delights everyone at the dinner table is a delightful person; never mind what they do for a living.

And I have to add: the [fill in the blank] who delights someone in bed is a delightful person; never mind what he or she does for a living.

Global Traveler...

Instead of ragging on escorts, perhaps you should be ragging on your friends. After all, if you feel that escorts are so vapid and have nothing of value to bring to the table, what would that say about the men who hire them as companions? And what does it say about you for tolerating it if you're so disgusted by the practice? You and your friends sound like a quite a pathetic bunch, sitting around at dinner parties filled with resentment while secretly judging each other. GOOD TIMES!

There's an important lesson about being a dom here...with great power comes great responsibility. While intellectually it's easy to say that every party bears responsibility for consensual sex, it can be tough to convince the emotions when you're playing out a master/sexslave fantasy.

When a sub gets pushed farther than they want to go, it's a little bit easier for them to tell themselves, "I only did it because they wanted it" and learn their lessons from there. Whereas a dom who finds themselves suddenly turned off is stuck with, "I gave the fucking command!"

Subs get a safeword--one power they reserve is the power to stop things altogether (and if you're playing with BDSM you'd better be emphasizing that.) It can be easy for the dom to forget that they have got that power, too. You've got the right and responsibility to stop if the situation isn't working for you physically or emotionally, even if the situation happened at your command, and that's okay. Not doing so is like a sub not using their safeword--it can turn a situation that will at best be awkward into something much much worse than awkward.

Maybe doms need a safeword, too, something to distinguish play-acting "Do you like that, bitch?" (yes sir!) from "Are you getting off on this, baby? Because I'm doing this to make you happy." Just like a sub still has self-autonomy when they leave the bedroom, a dom still has a desire to please/serve/love others. Folks have said HD is being a drama queen, but hey, doms are allowed some small share of drama, too, especially if they're reacting to going too far with the dom thing.

All that said, HD did stop things, and it sounds like his wife handled the situation as best as I can imagine it being handled. Be reassured that you're all actually navigating this pretty maturely.

ah, this is why i love dan savage so. when other advice columnists are writing about boring-ass wedding etiquette issues or whatever, here i get to read about rent boys! now THAT's the kind of quandary i want to ponder.

sending the love,
jill
http://inbedwithmarriedwomen.blogspot.co…

Heartbroken Dom - you lost me after you used the term "soul mate". That right there makes you a douche. I hope Dan was able to fix whatever your problem was/is.

It does my heart glad to hear about SG and her great experience. Well done to (all) involved!

It seems that many of us would fuck rent boys, a friend's wife, and a rabbi, but not someone who mistypes a homonym.