Savage Love

Quick & Dirty

Comments

1
Did anybody else think of Cafe Flesh for NIC's letter?
Good film, good porno.
2
It's a good thing WM wrote Savage and not Prudie or some poor 14 year old would be suffering an "intervention" right now.
3
Did anyone else think of South Park when reading NIC's letter?
4
BUNNE's situation exemplifies to a T my theory of selfish sex, or, "a good lover is a selfish lover"--but *only* if interests and kinks match up.
I don't advocate selfishness as in dickishness: paying no attention to your lover's needs and responses, or getting off and not caring whether your partner does or not; I'm talking about the selfishness that is inherent in symbiotic sex, that leads to the feedback loop of rising arousal.
If I think that my partner is doing whatever he's doing to please me, well, I'm grateful, but I also feel obligated to perform by coming gangbusters, which may not be possible. The expectation can lead to a burdensome feeling. If I get the sense that he doesn't really want to be doing said act for any reason *except* because he thinks he's required to or expected to, I turn right off.
But if it seems like he's doing the very thing I like most in the world (at that moment, anyway) because he *wants* to, because he can't live another minute without doing said thing, then that becomes incredibly hot.
Symbiosis. Feedback Loop. Selfish Sex.
6
"savage slime"
definition: mucus discharge from end of penis after contracting a bacterial infection from anal sex.
7
Why does BUNNE care if she's spanking him? I don't understand. Does she initiate other kinds of sex with him? Does she know that he'd like her to initiate more? These seem more relevant than him wondering why she doesn't spank him more.
8
Does anyone have the link to that study? Shit sounds wild.
9
@7 EricaP
It does seem to be a rather specific question considering the general mismatch in desires. It's great that he recognizes her needs and is concerned with her getting them met. It's natural to wonder where her initiative is in the face of her high level of desire. I too might feel insecure about my past performance.
10
Oh man! That baby shop is closed is one nasty nasty piece of trash, and so is her old man. LOL! Man, people are trashy gross. That is just nasty garbage. So of course they have kids. ha ha...fifty years, there isn't going to be anyone on the planet with an IQ over 105.
11
bonus baby. thats what we call em.
12
@Concerned Mom
Your daughter may have an orgasm every time she sneezes. Some women can orgasm when they brush their teeth (Dan had a guest on who wrote a book about strange orgasm triggers)So, maybe it's not really a kink, just the way she's wired and trying to figure out if she's alone in this.
13
EricaP and Mr. J, I read BUNNE's question as I think Dan did, that he is trying to indulge his domme wife (he said he's vanilla but GGG) and is wondering why she isn't more enthusiastic. He's trying to give her what he thinks she wants, what he knows she's interested in, because he loves her and wants to make her happy.
But he's not doing it for his own selfish reasons, so from her point of view, he's just going through the motions and it leaves her kind of cold. And on top of that, he wants her to respond more positively out of her sense of appreciation for his effort and offer. Those are noble sentiments, but they don't often make for super-hot, exciting sex.

I found his saying of his and his wife's ages and the duration of their relationship and marriage ("I know: too young and too soon, but we'll see how it turns out") pretty telling. What is too young? And for whom? And as for "too soon," he says they were together for four years before they married. In what culture is that "too soon?" It sounds as though he is expecting that response and trying to preemptively counter it--exactly the same kind of anticipation of what he thinks his wife needs sexually, met with the same slightly-off response. The guy needs to relax.
14
I'm a guy. I remember when I was in high school I used to worry that I might throw up when I had sex with a girl. I finally admitted to myself that I was gay. I've gagged on some big ones, but never threw up. Did finally have sex with a woman. It was fun. Her husband paid me nicely to do it while he watched.
15
@13 nocutename

Right, they are incompatible. He can't manufacture desires he doesn't have. She is responding with disappointment and apathy.

I love your theory @4 btw. I've been sitting here trying to say that without hitting on you. Obviously I gave up.
16
That story about the girl getting pregnant from oral is almost certainly a myth. From an ABC story:

"But some doctors are still suspicious, or at least bewildered by the tale. The girl's birth defect is well known and by age 15, doctors say most girls would have been doubling over in pain with an abdomen filled with menstrual fluid that cannot escape.
"The menstrual fluid of several periods would make it even more unlikely for a pregnancy to occur.
" 'She'd have pain all the time, and would have a stomach full of blood all the time, and would have to be operated on or she would eventually die,' said Dr. Sherman J. Silber, director of the Infertility Center of Saint Louis at St. Luke's Hospital in Missouri.
"Dr. Howard A. Zacur, a reproductive endocrinologist at Johns Hopkins, was also skeptical. 'The case report here suffers from the fact that an individual with a completely obstructed vaginal outlet would have been expected to have blood accumulation in the vagina, and/or uterus,' he wrote in an e-mail."

http://www.whas11.com/home/Girl-with-no-…

Here's the Discover link:
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/discob…
17
I think BUNNE would be better off asking his wife if she'd like to spank him more, instead of asking Dan. Or maybe he could focus on the good sex they have together that they both like. Sounds like he's insecure about her leaving him for a better spankee, when he should instead worry about her leaving him for someone less insecure.
18
If he really wants her to top him, he should read stories about that for a while, and find an activity that might actually turn him on. If she tied up his cock, with his hands bound so he couldn't touch himself -- maybe something like that. Then he could let her know that he has been fantasizing about this activity, and beg her to do it to him. That would be more of a two-way street, and less of a favor he's doing her.
19
Re. BUNNE: I could pretty much be BUNNE's wife, and Dan is right. If she's like me, she only wants to spank people who really, really want to be spanked. Maybe she could get her spanking needs met somewhere else? She could probably even find a spankee who doesn't also require her to fuck them, if that's an issue.

Re. NIC: I know it's impossible to make any diagnosis based on this letter...But my first thought was, "maybe you're not as heterosexual as you think you are."
20
Thanks, Mr. J. You made my evening.
21
Dear NIC, writing to Dan was an interesting way to confront and attempt to deal with your problem. I hope you continue to search out ways to make yourself more comfortable and that you are not discouraged by his advice.
22
Dear NIC, writing to Dan was an interesting way to confront and attempt to deal with your problem. I hope you continue to search out ways to make yourself more comfortable and that you are not discouraged by his advice.
23
BUNNE, my sub and I are kinky as hell but your wife's right--Domming takes a lot of work. Plus, most women are culturalized to accept that men should take the lead in sex, so it's hard, even when you don't want it/are planning otherwise, to erase those cultural norms.

The best thing you can do is let her know--A LOT-- that you love her kinky side and want to play (not just indulge because you love her but play because you enjoy it). Give her permission to play with you. And if you don't enjoy it, then give her an out--let her find someone who does.
24
8, the study has been posted here on SLOG in the past year, so use the search function and look for it.

I had to read it in my OB/GYN residency waaay back in the dark ages (late 80s) and it was indeed published in a reputable journal, but as a letter.

16, skepticism is all well and good, but the story as originally written is quite plausible. Stranger things have happened.....
25
I wonder if this column will get high enough in the Google results for "sneezing fetish" that Worried Mom's daughter winds up here... which would be horribly embarrassing for the girl, but probably ultimately helpful. She'd hear not only that her fetish is harmless and nothing to worry about, but also that her mom has noticed her habits and that she should learn to hide her online tracks better!
26
Dan, I know that it should be the pot users on this site telling you this, but you shouldn't recommend marijuana as a cure-all for that kind of nausea and discomfort. It's a tricky drug at the best of times and affects everyone differently, so I hear.
She SHOULD see a psychiatrist to work out her neuroses (my guess is that she's got some fairly deep-seated anxiety about romantic relationships, possibly the result of being rejected by a crush in early adolescence), but ONLY IF THERAPY ALONE IS INEFFECTIVE should she turn to medication. And for fuck sake, don't try to medicate nausea and discomfort with THC unless more standard and reliable pharmaceuticals have been tried and found ineffective.
27
I feel for NIC. Not that I ever got physically ill, but have to be close with someone (at least to the point where I'm pretty sure he gives half a fuck) to even make out. Sex hasn't entered the equation in a long time, since the few times it has, it's been disappointing to say the least.

I seriously do not get the ongoing quest for rumpy pumpy. Must be one of those things having good sex clarifies.
28
WM, I wouldn't necessarily say to stop monitoring your daughter's online activities, as 14-year-old girls are particularly vulnerable to the worst stuff on the internet. But, if you find something like "sneeze fetish," decide to say "okay, that's weird, but harmless enough...NEXT!" Maybe she's developing seasonal allergies and sneezing feels GOOD and she's confused, or maybe she has one of the crazy aforementioned orgasm triggers, or maybe some guy told her her sneeze was cute, but whatever it is, it doesn't matter. It's not like she's auctioning off her virginity or being viciously bullied.
29
No one is talking about LW2. I think that maybe the guy needs a colonoscopy. 50 is the exact right age for one. That would make sure that he didn't have any polyps or other hindrances. He never mentions seeing a doctor about the issue. Seems like a big problem to me.
30
Thank you, thank you, thank you, Dan. Really. After all these years of just nodding in agreement you've given me a "it's not just me" moment.

No matter how much you love your partner, no matter if he's GGG over the rainbow and out to the moon and wants you to be happy in every way possible - if you happen to be a submissive, and if he's simply not at all interested in or excited by domination, there is not one goddamned thing he can do to fake it. Not convincingly. Not ever enough to make you, the sub, really forget that he's only doing this for you. And while of course a good dom is turned on (in part) by everything he or she is doing for you, part of the joy of letting go as a sub is simply that it's not all about you. No decisions to make, no opinions to express, no responsibility for a few brilliant moments or hours... and the knowledge that this surrender is driving the other person wild in a way that nothing else will. What the hell am I supposed to do, script the whole scene? Knowing all the time that it would be just another chore for him and would kill the entire point for me?

And thinking about living the rest of my life without a creative, intelligent, inspired dom is making me numb and dead inside, and I finally understand that that particular emptiness is not going away. Fuck.
31
Hey all! I am relatively new to Dan's column and the associated abbreviations. So, what is GGG?

In re GAYASS: I can completely relate, and if you are reading, thank you, thank you, thank you for writing. You are not alone. I have not experienced anal sex because I am extremely sensitive to pain. I've came damn close with someone once, but I was only able to have him insert about an inch or two in. I've tried with toys alone, to little avail. Thus, I've wondered how this would affect a relationship, but I've not yet had a relationship, so...

Again, thank you for your question and Dan, thank you for the great advice. Any other comments the readers would be willing to offer is greatly appreciated in advance.
32
@31: Another thing Dan likes to say goes something like this: - if only there was a site on the internet where you could type in terms you don't know and they search the web for you. Oh wait:

http://www.google.com/search?q=ggg+dan+s…
33
venomlash @26,
Thank you for making that point, and I totally agree. I've noticed that people who are fans of weed sometimes tend to proselytize about it, ignoring the fact that it doesn't have equally salubrious effects on everyone. Personally, I have found that it actually makes my anxiety and nausea worse. (And, no, I don't think it's my attitude, as a few loyal medicinal pot smokers have suggested, I just think my physiological response to THC is different from theirs.)

34
"GGG chits."

I like it. Dan should print some. It's what all couples need to navigate their sex lives honestly and fairly: currency. He could start the GGG Fed. Create an exchange rate with the EU. Wealthy could take on a whole new meaning. Tax the GGG rich and give to the GGG poor.
35
@20 nocutename

Thank you!
36
Yojimbo@34: Yeah, but then the Republicans would take it over and create GGG stock exchanges and GGG ETFs and GGG derivatives and remove all GGG regulations and before you know it the entire GGG market would collapse and we'd be in a sex recession.
37
@27 blah

Don't give up after only a few tries. You will find the right person soon enough. You sound like you may have a low libido. I don't think that will change when the "good sex" finally happens for you. Lots of folks like to take things slowly so don't worry about that.

Did you see @4? Were your experiences anything like that or were your partners selfish in a dickish way, ignoring your needs or pressuring you to go too fast?
38
It's interesting to see when Dan decides to be patient, respectful, and generous with his advice to a young person trying to figure something difficult out, and when he decides to be parsimonious and dismissive, as he is here in the case of NIC.

@22: bigSista, thanks for pointing out DS's error here. You're right. Not to put to fine a point on it, but Dan's answer is irresponsible here.
39
@36 Action Kate

The exchange rate at my house renders that currency meaningless.
40
GGG stands for "Good, giving, and game," as in, what you should be as a sexual partner -- willing to try things and do things you're not necessarily IN TO but that don't cause you any harm because it's what your partner is in to, in what should be a give-and-take relationship when it comes to sex.
41
p.s. Urban dictionary or a google search may give you a more comprehensive definition.

p.p.s. You also should go to urbandictionary.com and search for "santorum," which I have memorized. ;)
42
If BSIC has all the kids she wants, why doesn't she get her tubes done? If both partners are surgically sterilized, then the 1/2000 odds turn into 1/?,000. I'm not a statistician, but odds will be much less if both are sterilized than if one partner is surgically sterilized.

After my last kid, I got mine done, and wanted my husband (ex now) to get a vasectomy, too (the chicken shit refused) because I knew a woman who got pregnant with her 4th kid after getting a tubal ligation.

It's easy to test to see if a guy is shooting blanks or not, if you have a microscope.
43
About WM:

Kids these days really need to learn the basics about computer security. That lady should tell her daughter to configure the OS on her computer to ask for a password during logon, to make sure she chooses a secure password, and to change the password every now and then.
44
@38: Agreed. She seemed the most in need of his advice, and she got one line.
/Sure, marijuana won't exacerbate what sounds like an anxiety disorder..../
45
Vasectomies are very reliable. The caveat is that you need to check your sperm count a month and three months after doing it. In VERY rare cases, the tube can religate by itself, so yearly checks are a good precaution for the first years after the procedure. After three years, the cut vas is so necrotic it is almost impossible to reverse the procedure.
And to Barabara's comment, yes, a man that chickens out to a vasectomy is indeed shit. The procedure is a lot simpler that tubal ligation, takes 30 minutes and barely 2 days rest. I had mine done years ago and never looked back.
Gents, if you love your wife and don't want to have more kids, do it. Man up, and don't behave like 5 year old sissy girls.
46
I swear I could have written NIC's letter back when I was 19. She might just need some simple relaxation techniques, a very considerate partner, and to take it slow. I on the other hand took the road of Dan's second advice, never saw a shrink, and have had almost all sexual partners stem from a drunken/drug induced night.
47
Action Kate wins the thread.
48
I swear I could have written NIC's letter back when I was a teenager. She might just need some simple relaxation techniques and a very considerate and understanding guy who's willing to take everything slow. It really depends on what is at the root of her anxiety. A shrink might be helpful.

I know where my anxieties came from, but I didn't want to see a shrink. I took the road of Dan's second advice and have had nearly all sexual partners stem from a drunken/drug induced night. The anxiety is still there if I'm sober. You hear that, NIC?
49
My OB-GYN told me that she gets at least one new client a week who thought they wouldn't get pregnant because their bloke had a vasectomy.
50
People with anxiety disorders need to be careful with marijuana; it can sometimes have a paradoxical effect and INCREASE your anxiety substantially.
51
@49 aliceaustralia
It would be nice to know which type of vasectomy is failing so often. There are reversible methods involving clips and then there is what I had: cut a section out, cauterize, and bury the two ends in different tissue layers so they can never find each other. Works for me for years now.
52
I don't think a sneezing fetish is that kinky. When I have an dirty thought that really turns me on, sometimes I have a sudden sneeze right out of nowhere. The connection between sneezing and sexual arousal has been noted for thousands of years. I sometimes have wondered if it happened to me during real time sex, would that be a turn off to my partner. Maybe this girl sneezes when she's turned on and wants to make sure she can find a partner who is into it someday. Or maybe it turns her on. All of those nasonex and claritin commercials must seem very oppressive to her. A little gross, but over all it's fairly vanilla as kinks go.
53
What's the deal with BUNNE? He says he's vanilla, but then he's complaining that his wife is not interested enough in beating him up and hardly ever initiates it? If it's too mild and too infrequent, I would say Dan is dead wrong and BUNNE is into it a lot. I think his wife just "doesn't like him that way". He may be too eager or two passive, or too familiar because maybe she just likes beating up strangers, or people in better shape or people who don't whine a certain way.

If he's really not into it, he should let it go.
54
@53 jussmbdy
I think that's the point. He's afraid what she wants is someone else. If he's convinced she has certain strong desires and that she isn't bringing them to him, then his relationship is in trouble.
55
@26: don't try to medicate nausea and discomfort with THC unless more standard and reliable pharmaceuticals have been tried and found ineffective.

WTF? What exactly is the big risk of MMJ that would make it a last resort?

Another option, of course, is a shot or two of whiskey. Humans have been calming their nerves with alcohol for tens of thousands of years. But holy shit, don't try alcohol until you've exhausted every single doctor-prescribed pharmaceutical option, right?
56
Oh please give me a break. This guy is apparently getting all the sex he wants but now he is bitching about his wife not spanking him. Here is my letter:

Dear Dan:

I'm a straight man married to an asexual lady, which is something I would NOT recommend to any other straight men in the world. We're in our late 40s, have been together for 18 years, married four hundred or so. (I know: too old and way too late for me so we already know how it is going to turn out- right?).

I have a much bigger sex drive than my wife. Her fantasies, if she even has any are vanilla, but I'm GGG.

The problem, as I see it, is that she doesn't initiate. She's laid there and thought of England and it was fine. She won't let me do oral on her or anything else beyond a little kissing a fingering and just seems to be on the clock- like I am one more thing she needs to check off and get out of the way for the month or so until the next time.

Could I have done something wrong? How do you have sex wrong? When I've asked her, she says that it takes a lot of energy to to have sex, which makes sense, but we've done plenty of other high-energy activities. Communication is excellent between us. How do we get past this?

Answer: Marry someone who shares you interests and sex drive or be miserable for the rest of your life.
57
My hubbie waited 38 years to have sex, Because he was that nervous around women and wanted to wait until he met someone he really connected with. It's a long time to not date, but he says the rewards were worth the wait.

At some point, you'll meet someone and not feel nervous and it'll work, but it's not something you can know when . . .
58
I'm sure the budding fetishist would so appreciate your thoughtful response. You are an original - and needed - voice. Thank you. :)
59
@30 – I have felt much like you... Did he used to be more domly, and the dom energy has ebbed for a few years, and now you think he was faking it all along? In my experience, it can ebb and flow, depending on how stressful the rest of the dom's life is... Or did his efforts never work for you? How long have you been together, and how committed are you? Could you possibly get your sub needs met with someone else?

@42/45, yeah, but since they're now divorced, maybe he's glad he didn't get cut for her.

@54, if the apparent problem is her desires, then we can't tell if the relationship is in trouble without asking her. (On the other hand, I'm happy to diagnose a problem looming in his hyper-insecurity).
60
BSIC needs to either get a tubal ligation or and IUD, or use hormomal birth control, in addition to and having both her husband and partner use condoms to protect against infections.
Rather than spend time freaking out over elaborate and unlikely scenarios for getting pregnant, why not just take proactive steps to reassure yourself that it isn't possible.

As to NIC, I want to know if she gets anxious in general, or what other sorts of situations make her feel sick. Questioning her heterosexuality seems to be missing the point; plenty of gay people have had straight relationships and didn't get physically sick and nauseous, and there's no reason not to take her at her word. Weed might work, but it might make her even more anxious or paranoid, and in any case, it would at best mask the symptoms of what seems like a real anxiety disorder. She should probably see a therapist, and perhaps stop trying to date for a while. If she is in a relationship, she should try to take it slow and keep it light and see whether that helps reduce anxiety. There's a lot she didn't say in this letter, and there's probably a lot of background going into this physiological response.

61
Also, Dan Dropped the ball on GAYSS. What about anal dilators? You start with a finger, then work up to a slightly larger dildo, and so on and so on up to the diameter of your lovers dick. Make it a fun game, every night take a little bit more- NOT so it causes pain but push yourself a bit and you'll be shooting out Santorum within a couple weeks.

THIS is the guy who needs the medical marijuana/dealer. A couple of those poppers and a hot tub probably would not hurt (at least not the second or third time).

Finally on the 14 y/o girl and internet searches. The guy has it easy. Net Nanny identified my 12 year old son doing searches like "Asian Tight Butt Anal Sex Girls" and "Virgin Philippine Sluts." I told him that was not very appropriate at his age but at least we know his sexual orientation. Actually I broke the ice by telling him: "So, I see you are not gay after all" and suggested he didn't want to get into a fetish so he only likes one "type" of woman. He said: "But Dad, isn't this a pretty good fetish thing to have? There's like 2 Billion of them." I think he will be all right.....
62
@56 - what happens if you ask her to open the marriage? Does she leave you over that issue? Has she ever had sex with anyone else? Might she be a little curious? Or maybe she doesn't find sex that big a deal, and won't mind you getting some elsewhere?
63
@59 EricaP
Oh, I agree. I think the problem is his insecurity. Her desires are for her to tell us. But since he wrote in to say that he's already convinced of what they are then the problem is his response to those desires, be they real or imagined.
64
I blame the sneezing fetish on sex ed teachers that compare orgasm to sneezing.
65
@ 55

A lot of people with anxiety disorders self medicate with alcohol and it would be an even MORE irresponsible reccomendation to make than marijuana.

Humans have been doing lots of things for tens and thousands of years, not all of them good.

Going to therapy would be choice one. But taking a dose-controlled, non-recreational substance for anxiety is likely better than marijuana and DEFINITELY better than alcohol. (I find that many anxious people, including myself, respond negatively to marijuana. I dissociate severely and I find it very unpleasant)
66
Ms Erica, Mr J and Ms Cute, among others, all have excellent points, though I think I'm eventually going to be looking at BUNNE from the flip side.

BUNNE's whole letter seems a bit on the odd side. I like Ms Cute's point about his anticipatory comment on his coupling/marrying age, and Mr J provides a good explanation for an interesting choice of question. Ms Erica provides a good blueprint in #18 if that's the path he seeks. It makes sense that the more they can do something that does it for them both, the better off they are likely to be.

As for post #17, I suppose it's possible to think that there might be a Quick Fix. If Mrs BUNNE is of the, "Do I have to tell you EVERYTHING?" mindset, he might consider open discussion with her to be a Last Resort.
67
@61
HAHAHA! Good one. "But Dad..." Thanks for making my (work) day.
68
Continuing, BUNNE's letter does not prepossess me in his favour. He gloats over his wife's status as bi without backing it up, comes across as the sort of person who calls someone a lady in more of a creepy way than a courtly way, seems somewhat skeptical of his own marriage, and appears to claim GGG more as an accomplishment than as a goal or a process. The letter leaves out a lot, too. All that is mentioned of their entire sexual history, spanning perhaps eight years, is that she has tied him up and spanked him a handful of times. How long has she been openly into domination? How long have they been sexual together? Is this the only way in which he indulges her? Does she have any outside accommodation? Does she indulge him, or count vanilla activites as an indulgence?

Mr Savage's response surprised me a hair. I keep thinking of the way he uses a foot fetishist partner as an example of how one may not have to do much to indulge a partner and be GGG. Indulging a spanker would seem to be somewhat more by way of accommodation. The reply is not easy to make out. Is Mr Savage simply being factual and relating how some people need an enthusiastic partner instead of an indulgent one, or is he sniping at those who indulge partners in order to pad their GGG accounts? Is the argument that that isn't proper GGG?
69
Maybe it's in part due to the marijuana (the partaking of which was inspired by a comment of Mr. Savage's), but Mr. Vennomimon, I'm finding your posts the ideal combination of diligent, thoughtful, probing questions involving critical thinking, and a style which emulates Miss Austen herself, being both formal and balanced and pointedly ironic and hilarious; thus becoming even more charming than usual.
And being referred to as "Ms Cute" delights me beyond measure. Thank you.
70
@68 - well said (even sans partaking a la @69)

I'm ruminating about this now... When is a fetish strong enough that you appreciate your partner's willingness to indulge you even if they don't enjoy it themselves? Foot fetishists often don't seem to care if the woman loves it or not... Same with anal sex aficionados (as per GAYASS)... I want my back scratched regardless; but I only want to be tied up by someone who is at least as into the scene as I am. Guess this is where it comes down to communication and openness about change and discovery.
71
Looking at Ms Cute's posts #4 and #13 from the other end, I do like in #4 the "required or expected" turn-off. I think there's wiggle room in between that and "But if it seems like he's doing the very thing I like most in the world (at that moment, anyway) because he *wants* to, because he can't live another minute without doing said thing, then that becomes incredibly hot," for giving a partner what (s)he really gets off on as a free gift given out of love, unless it's considered a necessary part of a free gift given out of love that the giver fake being as fully into it as the partner.

My flip view of 4/13 is that Mrs BUNNE (hypothetically) cares about his needs and responses, doesn't want to get off on spanking him if it doesn't get him off as well, doesn't want him to go through the motions. Those are noble sentiments, but can't it come across as pressure not just to indulge but to adopt her kink? I'm not really "on his side" but it just seems a little sad if even someone who really wants an enthusiastic instead of an indulgent partner can't get anything out of a free gift given out of love even if it's not the ideal. Then again, I do agree with the idea that BUNNE seems more interested in being "called" GGG than in actually "being" GGG.

Before I became a nun (I like the outfit better than that of a monk), I occasionally did role plays to indulge someone. The advantage of a role play is that one is already acting, thus faking, anyway. I felt able to provide a decent or good role play even a couple of times when I was not only being indulgent about a scene that wasn't a turn on for me but of which I already knew I would not want to become a devotee. Fortunately it wasn't a problem.

72
Action Kate @36
I don’t think the Republicans will ever recognize GGG as the definition offered by Redheadwglasses @40.
Can you imagine a Bachman-Santorum administration that will even allow any form of GGGness in the first place? But if that happens then maybe the lefty grass-roots response will be to hold bunch of GGG parties across the nation.

One outcome is certain: Governor McKenna will not sue the federal government over this issue, as he will be too busy breaking the state employees union and further deregulate and degrade insurance and healthcare services.
73
Post 71 crossed posts 69 and 70.

Ms Cute, I debated what to call you for some time, and am most pleased to have chosen for your delight.

Ms Erica summarizes very nicely.

Actually, I am now going to go play tennis in an excellent mood. I have just been recalling one of my longest-lasting partners. We had slight variations on the same main preference, and got to a point at which each indulging the other became almost more of a source of joy than being indulged, and it built up.
74
Mr. Vennominon articulates a phenomenon I have experienced very well. And it might even play into what EricaP has been ruminating about: the crossing over of GGG behavior into a true personal preference, maybe even going so far as to become a learned fetish. I once had a partner I wanted to please very much, and so I indulged a few of his preferences I didn't share, because it wasn't difficult to accommodate him and it seemed to make him happy. I was definitely in the GGG spirit, without explicitly trying to earn my triple-G chits, as Dan so pithily put it. I don't know that my bf knew how much I didn't share those particular interests; he may have had an inkling; he at least knew that they were not common for me. But I like to think that I manufactured a sufficient level of enthusiasm because I know how much my own enjoyment depends on my awareness and knowledge that my partner is really turned on by whatever he's doing *for his own sake* (see post @4), and I assumed that the same feelings and reactions applied.

Over time, however, those acts or roles which I had once viewed as "foreign" to me, but which I engaged in to be 3-G, became associated with some VERY positive memories. Since the symbiotic feedback loop is in play, what made my partner feel good in turn led to his doing something that would make me feel good, etc. ad infinitum.
So in a classic Pavlovian or even Skinnerian behavior modification, I came to have the same reaction to those sets of stimuli as my bf did. Then I was no longer being GGG and indulging him, but gratifying my own desires.
The irony is that after that bf and I broke up, I was left with a set of somewhat difficult to recreate specific interests not all people might be interested in! Although I would characterized these newer interests as new-found *kinks,* rather than *fetishes,* because I'm not wholly dependent on them to get aroused or enjoy sex, or orgasm, I do wonder: can a fetish be created?

75
@BUNNE,

1)There are MANY men out there who would love to have a female domme in their life, so consider yourself lucky that she is sticking around.
2)Maybe if you brought in a third party, a female sub perhaps, you could watch her spank her.. and you might be more into it.
3)Be more open with your WIFE. ask HER why she isn't into you anymore. She's probably bored with not having you respond how she would like. why don't you try to stop "being okay with it" and start at least TRYING to enjoy it.

kinksters don't like a bored partner. just like you wouldn't like it if your wife acted bored while you has sex.
76
It sure looks like Ms. Cute and Mr. Vennomimon will make a great GGG couple. And my guess is that if Erica P, aka Ms. Erica, shows an interest than they’ll all be GGGing together. Hoorah!!!
78
I think there's a space between a vanilla partner who "endures" the occasional kinky activity and a kinkster who loves it, and that's what my vanilla partner is- it wouldn't occur to him to dominate me if left to his own devices and I don't think he'd want to do it if he were with a vanilla girl, but he actually likes doing it with me because seeing how happy it makes me also makes HIM really happy.

That sounds more like BUNNE to me. I think he should stop doubting his wife's honesty when she says that it takes a lot of energy to top- a good scene usually DOES take a lot more energy than vanilla sex.
79
It sure looks like Ms. Cute and Mr. Vennomimon will make a great GGG couple. And my guess is that if Erica P, aka Ms. Erica, shows an interest than they’ll all be GGGing together.
Hoorah!!!
80
Many thanks to Venomlash, Sea Otter and the others who posted about THC and anxiety. I get both anxious and nauseous pretty easily, and pot just makes it worse - very frustrating! I'm reassured to know this is not so uncommon.
Other than that part of the advice, I didn't find that answer so bad - it's pretty clear that this is a big issue, and one answer from Dan won't go very far to solve it. Therapy can be useful stuff, and she did suggest it herself.
81
@37

Actually, I have a pretty active libido. I just take care if it myself, almost daily.
82
26/33/53/65 -- I also think Dan's recommendation of marijuana for anxiety (or depression) is a really, really bad idea. I used to be in the pro-weed, what's the big deal camp as I'd smoked it and still do on rare occasions (I'm 32) and never had any negative effects personally so I too thought it was people's overreaction to the drug.

Now, as a result of an ex-boyfriend who started using it much like the letter writer did to help alleviate social anxiety and awkardness issues, I see it much more like alcohol -- for many, it can be enjoyed recreationally with little/no risk -- but for some, for whatever reason, it becomes a big time dependency/addiction and crutch. In my ex's case, he began smoking at 15 and by the time he entered college, he was smoking every day and continued to do so for 8 years straight. He was totally functional -- graduated with good grades, got a good job -- looked pretty good from the outside. But he was emotionally stunted; he didn't go through a lot of emotionally difficult stuff we all do that brings about personal growth and maturity. If it hurt, he just smoked it away, so not much growth ever occurred. At 26, he was much more on the level of a 19 year-old emotionally speaking.

Until I started looking into this more and reading some serious scientific studies on this phenomenon, I didn't believe it existed. But it can be a crutch much like alcoholism for people -- just as you can have a functional alcoholic, you can have a functional pothead. The harder part is that the functional pothead doesn't hit rock bottom until much later than the alcoholic does. So, I'd never suggest using weed or alcohol to help someone loosen up that had obvious, extreme social anxiety issues like the LW and I think it's a poor decision on Dan's part not to know better. Telling someone to drink/smoke their problems away is never a good thing.
83
The difference between a willing partner and an enthusiastic one when it comes to sex vs back scratching is sex is something we're supposed to be doing *together* not something being done to me. I can masturbate myself, ya know?

Am I the only one who is imagining the sneeze girl at school laughing her ass off with her friends? "so this week I googled sneeze fetish to freak my mom out, what should I do next? Keep it weird enough to confuse her but not so weird she actually confronts me on it." Or she heard about it from a friend and googled. It's highly unlikely she actually has this and even if so, yes, who cares?

GAYASS you're so not alone. And I hate to be obvious but try fucking guys with smaller dicks. I used to let guys do anal on me because that's what hot sexy hetero women are supposed to do and those who don't are prude. I hated every minute of it. It was painful, awful, and gave no sexual pleasure whatsoever. It didn't matter how slow we went or how much lube we used or the position. We read Tristan Taoromino enough times I can still quote passages extensively. I did it once with a guy with a small dick, I mean like barely bigger than thumb circumference, and that was not sheer torture. If I had a prostate I might have even liked it.

When I was Just Friends with my current husband we were in a group that was discussing anal. Some were really into it, some really not. This fell pretty hard among gender lines. He said "honestly, I don't get it. As a hetero guy if I've got a nice wet beautiful pussy right there why the fuck would I want to stick my dick in her shit hole? I've tried it a few times because it's supposed to be just awesome but I totally don't get it."

My mouth watered and he got his first BJ out of me a week later. There may be a similar man out there who views your mouth the same way.
84
give NIC my # Dan!
85
If BSIC is so adamant about not getting pregnant, why doesn't she get a tubal ligation? Her husband having a vasectomy was okay with her because theyre both comfortable not having anymore kids, but she's STILL worried. I think she should stop freaking out over the various ways she could get pregnant, and be proactive. DO SOMETHING. Get your tubes tied, lady. Sheesh. There's your simple solution.
86
as he pseudofucks you

I'm sooo stealing this verb, 'pseudofuck'! Sounds like either a new rock band name, or a cool new blog.
87
There is quite a difference between having a desire for an object, say a foot, and having a desire for an action designed to elicit a response, say spanking. People into flogging don't masturbate by whipping a pillow. A shoe fetishist doesn't necessarily need a person in the shoe. If BUNNE isn't feeling it the right way why would Mrs. BUNNE want to go on spanking him?
88
nocutename, Vennominom, Mr J, you mention things I have been thinking about for a while. Here are some of my conclusions.

Yes, new kinks can be acquired, precisely via the Pavlovian/Skinnerian loophole that you've mentioned. (The little bit of a scat fetish I have came to be in this precise manner.) Of course, there are different levels of enthusiasm -- not all kinksters are equally intense, and second-hand kinksters are probably more likely not to be among the most intense.

Indeed, it is better to have a 'selfish' lover than an indulgent one, and that for a very old reason, that goes back as far as the troubadours and trouvères of the Middle Ages: that one of the best things to have in a lover is passion, and passion is not 'the desire to please you', but 'the desire to please oneself, the desire to get what one is passionate about'. To observe a passionate person -- especially, but not only, of the other sex -- is one of the greatest experiences; and if that passion is for some reason pointed at oneself, then all is set up for a great experience.

It's as if there were two different variables: (a) the extent to which your partner wants or is hungry for you, and (b) the extent to which your partner cares about you. Hot sex comes from (a). Being GGG comes from (b). A number of classical situations show this disparity clearly (Ever heard about the couple who say 'we're great in bed but incompatible elsewhere'? Or the guy/girl who is attracted to the 'wrong person', who s/he knows will be bad for him/her, but still can't avoid falling into bed with? That's strong (a) but weak (b). The GGG guy who wants to indulge his wife but isn't very much into her kinks? Strong (b) but weak (a).)

Which brings me to a problem with GGG theory. If GGG (as seems to be already happening) simply turns into a modern cool synonym for what used to be called 'being a good wife' (you know, indulge your husband, even if you yourself don't like it), then it stops being a progressive concept and actually comes a regressive one. Because it concentrates more on caring about your partner than on being passionate for your partner.

There is a 'good' GGG: call it 'the spirit of adventure'. It's when you're willing to do something new for the sake of your parnter, but not only for that: also to explore, to go somewhere where one hasn't been before, because, who knows what we might find there?... It's like when you go to a new ethnic restaurant, without knowing if you'll like the food, just to see what happens. Or going to a new country that you can't know you will like, again just to see what happens, who knows....?
go to a different, unknown country that you can't know you will like, just to see what happens. The spirit of adventure, like a little devil in our blood, that makes us try new things thinking 'I wonder if I'll like it...' with a little suggestive smile.

Not, again, that you shouldn't try to accommodate your partner. You should. Caring about those one love is one of the most important aspects of relationships. But if you do things only because you care about him/her, without any little bit of 'spirit of adventure and exploration', 'I wonder if I'll find something good in there', 'I wonder what there is after the next mountain...' then you risk becoming your partner's mommy rather than his/her passionate sex companion and co-explorer.

Does that make sense to you?
89
@81 blah
But what about my other question in reference to @4? Have your other experiences been that way?

I'll just keep asking personal questions if you don't mind (we can email if you'd rather). What's stopping you from finding the person who will have that "great sex" with you?
90
Ankylosaur,
That makes perfect sense.
I've been long thinking some of the same things, but hadn't articulated them yet, and you do a remarkable job.
Your (a) (b) pairings also explain the phenomenon someone wrote in about here (I forget how long ago and the title of the SLLOTD): before she fell in love with her bf, she was far more likely to indulge his and her kinks, but as she decided she loved him, she got more vanilla. It's a variation on that old "I could never do to my wife what I would do to a slut--despite that I married the slut I once did those dirty things with" phenomenon! As a matter of fact, I think I'm experiencing a bit of a distortion of that now with my new bf--time to talk about keeping the (a) going, even if we're slipping into a (b)-level relationship. Thanks for providing clarity.

91
83-- You're not alone. I wrote earlier in a post that seems to have gotten lost. I wondered about a mother-daughter relationship that involves the mother snooping into her daughter's search history. I acknowledge that parents have a responsibility to investigate if there's a legitimate reason to suspect real harm to their children, harm in the form of abusive relationships, drug abuse, mental illness. But too many parents take that loophole and decide it's O.K. to snoop into their children's private lives when there's no reason to suspect anything. The kid has good grades and great friends. She wants the privacy that comes with being 14. The mother decides to go crazy over that and starts snooping into what the girl searches on? I don't blame her for searching on sneeze fetishes. Serves the mother right.
92
@88 ankylosaur
Yes! Delightful! The spirit of adventure is exactly it. You need to be open to things you can't know whether you'll like in advance. Life is a journey. If you are an adventurer married to an armchair tourist then expect sad times ahead.
93
Come on Dan! A certain Republican politician has declared his intention to run. Waddyathink of that. I'm dying to hear from you (and I know it could be messy).
94
@ 45 - you wrote: "Gents, if you love your wife and don't want to have more kids, do it. Man up, and don't behave like 5 year old sissy girls."

Don't you mean "5 year old sissy boys?" After all, women are more apt to be responsible enough to get their tubes tied under the circumstances you've described AND that procedure if much more risky. Saying someone is behaving "like a girl" means you are saying they are being brave.

It's about time people started getting that right.
95
Maybe I'm a foolish romantic, but BUNNE sounds like he is trying to embrace his wife's kink.

I know that we all want everything to be perfect and just to our liking, but that is seldom how life goes. Sometimes you undertake things for your partner to honor them. You do it for love and because it gives you joy to fulfill their wishes. Isn't the willingness to go there something to be treasured? Isn't the willingness to learn something to be cheered on?

So from the perspective of wishing to learn and inspired by the chorus of the Stones' "You Can't Always Get What You Want" (I've been writhing and sweating through "Let It Bleed" for attitude adjustment and bunda love. Love them guitars.) What can one do to learn to enthusiastically participate in a loved one's kink? In this instance 1) ask questions, 2) watch BDSM porn, 3) read, 4) apprentice himself to her as a student, and 5) encourage her participating in the community. Maybe, others have better suggestions? Of course this will depend on both of their attitudes, his ability to throw himself into learning, and her ability to recognize that his subpar sub skills are seeking to improve and are offered up in the spirit of love. Life together is made by meeting in the middle, it is a journey of going places you never dreamed for yourself while holding tight to your beloved's hand and leaping.

And, that is why I think that a less than enthusiastic arse is worth being spanked. Take your GGG vanilla self on a journey, BUUNE. Tastes change if you willing to open yourself to them, maybe there are white, milk, and dark chunks of chocolate in your vanilla. Jump high and far. Go, go, go!

Best wishes.
96
@ 44 - I agree. I had to read his response twice and could only surmise that the letter must have been a wind up and he knew it wasn't real so was being flippant.

I smoked weed for about 3 years in my early 20s - many, many years ago and I remember the exact moment I realised that all it was doing was making me ill. Fast forward about 20 years after the event, I was diagnosed with an anxiety disorder and curiously, yes, marijuana DOES have that effect on people who have those sorts of disorders. His answer is irresponsible, indeed. AND, it is annoying and irresponsible for pot heads to come out with some uneducated analysis as to "why" it's all in someone's head.
Marijuana made me nauseous and so paranoid that I could barely leave the house if I smoked it. It didn't help to be around dimwits who try to have a go at me for not enjoying it.
That diagnosis was one of the best things that happened to me. I don't smoke, drink booze, take any sort of drugs and limit my caffeine to 1 - 2 cups of coffee per day.
People who are keyed up all the time simply can't use too many stimulants and to recommend it, even flippantly is nasty.
Different strokes for different folks.
97
@ 60 - Take. the. TROLLING. somewhere. else.

98
@ 60 apologies, that message about trolling was for #61 and not your comment.
Scrolled too fast and got the wrong number.
99
@95 Kim
No, not foolish. An adult. Great comment, love. Him in Portland is a lucky man.
100
I gotta say, this has been a truly outstanding set of comments. Bravo, Sloggers.

I'm gonna use that (a)(b) thing. Also, raising my hand as yet another person who feels far far worse with any level of pot in the system.
101
Ankylosaur makes a great distinction between “caring for” and “being passionate about” regarding the nature of GGG. But to this I would add that adventurousness is not an all or nothing state of mind. I like to indulge the kinks and fantasies of my partners and of course enjoy being allowed to explore mine. I’m willing to tread on unfamiliar and/or uncomfortable ground in the spirit of adventure. But I won’t do BDSM. Even mild spanking is a huge turn-off to me due to the fact that *in my mind* this is an act of violence and I can’t mix what I perceive as violence with sex. If BDSM works for you, knock yourself out (not literally). I’m all for people finding their happiness in life. I have no idea if this is an issue for BUNNE, but it could be that there are some jungles his sense of adventure isn’t willing to explore. If you want to have sex on roller skates dressed up as the Easter Bunny, I’ll be there with bells on (literally). But if you want flogging involved, find somebody else. Ultimately the issue is compatibility. She likes BDSM, he doesn’t. Maybe he can train himself to like it. If not, GGG means bringing in a third. It sounds to me like BUNNE is simply coming to the realization that after all these years he can’t train himself to enjoy it and that there’s a fork looming in the road ahead.
102
Fact about the internet: Given the popularity of the Savage Love page, continued Googlings of "sneeze fetish" will soon return this page.