Columns Aug 24, 2011 at 4:00 am

Sweat Ickquity

Comments

1
Kids these days. I recently saw a cute little 14ish(at least they looked like kids) couple in Chicago. They had huge gauged earrings, tattoos, dyed hair, elegantly put together etc etc. I really felt sad for them cause where do you go from there? Petty soon it's cutting off fingers, nullo or god forbid Republicanism.
2
I'm worried that the real perv here is the father. Shouldn't he have thought of selling his own underwear or his wife's first?
3
@Ricardo

YES! Seriously creepy. Or god damn, sell your toaster.

@Hybrid

I wouldn't worry about it. I'm on the front end of that generation and when they grow up, you know what happens? They take the gauges out. Nbd. The tattoos are for life though.

*Cue angry people at my insuination that appearance = maturity*
5
@ 4 - They might not "hate" gays, but they'll vote agains their rights to save their career anyway. And that's the problem.
6
Thanks for the heads-up on Misfits. Gotta love sci-fi with tits.

As for PORTLAND- dude, no. As a father to two (now grown) boys, I gotta say that's pretty fucked up. Pimp out your own sweaty gym clothes, but leave the underage aspect out of it, okay? Stirring up the nonces can lead to no good.
7
I agree with Ricardo @2: That father is indeed an abusive asshole.
I also agree with Dan in regards to the other parent worrying about their son. And yes, it should be communicated to both the child and his BF.

On a somewhat related note: Being a kinkster of some sort- in your own private space and NEVER involve your own offspring in any way- doesn’t mean you can’t be a devoted, loving, and responsible parent.
8
The half of me that's not puking would like to kick the half of him that's not joking squarely in the taint.
9
I'm curious what makes WTF call his son & son's bf "furries." There's a wide spectrum there -- some people like to put on full furry costumes, head to toe, and have sex that way, sure. I've never known anyone openly like that.

But I know a lot of people who wear dog collars and occasionally a tail or ears, and act like puppies when they're at home or the right kind of party. Others who wear bridles and other pony gear; still others who wear no collars or props but act very much like playful kitty cats. In all these cases, their costumes are minimal, and most of the play is carried out by their body language. It seems one of the most harmless of games and not something for a dad to be freaking out about. Unless the boy is wearing a full on plush dog costume and Dad is concerned about the dry-cleaning costs, I guess.

As far as erotic asphyxiation, though, WTF might also want to mention to the boy the specific dangers of autoerotic asphyxiation.
10
@ 9 - I think it's because the son and his BF are self-identifying as furries, and WTF doesn't want to sound furry-phobic by casting doubts on their furriness because of their young age.

But seriously, you're right, EricaP, the asphyxiation thing is something he needs to address RIGHT NOW.

(Oh, and by the way, you were right too the other day about enemas not being something one should do unless necessary, as it fucks up the digestive tract in the long term, but I just got tired of the pointless debate)
11
Let's put a different spin on PORTLAND:

I'm a marginally employed skeevy mother who is always looking for a way to make a few bucks. I have a 14 year old daughter, and I am planning to peddle her panties online. I'll post a picture of another underaged girl, maybe a few vidoes as well. Does this make me a lowlife and borderline child pimp?

Answer: YES.

What the fuck? Bad enough that there are people out there who want to sniff a 14 year old's skivvies, but a parent who's willing to be the source? And a kid who's down with it as long as he gets his cut. Good old American values at work here.
12
I hate to say it, but PORTLAND could probably make more money selling used 14-year-old boy underwear than used middle-aged housewife panties. And unless he's a total DILF, he certainly couldn't make much selling his own used underwear.

Obviously the prospect of making money doesn't mean that it's a morally acceptable thing to do - I'm just responding to the question about why he'd consider selling his son's underwear, rather than his own underwear, or his wife's.

At one point, there was an episode of one of the Law & Order shows where a minor part of the storyline was that a teenage girl's elderly aunt (who was her legal guardian) made a small fortune from selling the girl's "genuine used prom queen panties" online. That may be where he got the idea (I'm pretty sure the plot involved the teenage girl getting a "cut," too.)

For the record, though, in that episode, one of their regular customers tracked the girl down and traumatized her sexually (he masturbated right in front of her, after getting her to trust him, and see him as the father figure she never had), so if PORTLAND got the idea from that episode, that just makes it creepier.
13
14
italics tag now closed! you're welcome :)
15
Monkeywithcarkeys @8 so glad I found you
No, I’m not the abusive parent so please don’t kick me.

This is in relation to your post couple of weeks ago. Please go to: http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Savag…
And check #164
16
@ 14 - Thanks! Didn't think I could handle it anymore.

@ 12 - I agree with your first point (although there's a market for everything, I believe), but from the tone of his letter, it just seems like he didn't explore any other options. "Hey, everyone, we need money, but I've got a great idea: we'll sell the kid's underwear online!"

I would never have had children because I always knew I wouldn't be a great father (to say the least), but if I had, I'd definitely would have thought about many other things before involving my child (or any other) in something so vile if I needed money to pay the rent. (And just so you know, I cleaned toilets and picked up junkies' syringes for a few years, so I'm not talking hypothetically.)
17
I meant "I definitely would have thought"
19
@5

you're on fire! I agree again.

@9/Erica

I don't think the parent is freaked out, but in fairness, the harmless premise of furry..ism... whatever you'd call it, is based on the idea that there's no beastiality crossover. I certainly hope there isn't! but it wouldn't be an unreasonable idea to think that there is, or could be.
I hope we can all agree that beastiality is not harmless.

P.S. I'm pretty sure in that episode, the panties actually belonged to the grandmother and she was a FORMER prom queen. They busted the house looking for Ellie or whoever and this old lady steps out of her bridge game to greet them.

... not that I'm a rabid SVU fan or anything

20
furries can go yiff in hell
21
@19 the ones I know have human lovers who are their "owners." It's just a different way of doing D/s (owner/pet) and does not involve bestiality.
22
@10 "WTF doesn't want to sound furry-phobic by casting doubts on their furriness because of their young age"

LOL
23
Unrelated: is there anyway to subscribe to both Savage Love and Dan's Slog via Google Reader?
24
It boggles my mind that PORTLAND even thought of selling his son's underthings. That's insane. You want to make money pandering your child to pedophiles?
WHAT in HELL.
There is something seriously wrong with a parenting thought process that could even spawn that thought.
I can't even fathom it. Dan was much kinder to PORTLAND than I could be. I wanna just give him a sound smack on the back of his head and say loudly and sternly "NO, NO, NO, YOU MORON."

It's your job to protect this kid, PORTLAND, not pimp him out, even if you feel you're doing so in an abstract way, you're still trying to sexually sell your child.

I hope you will one day be as disgusted with yourself as I am with you right now. That you even discussed this with him was seriously inappropriate. Consider family counseling, because your dynamics are fucked up.
25
Yeah, if you knew nothing *about* furries, I could see where they'd confuse things w/ bestiality, maybe. Good on you, WTF, for being open-minded about your son's choices & wanting to make sure they --are-- his choices. HE could just have a furry phase. Talking to both of them, even if it's uncomfortable, is necessary. What a great dad you are.

But speaking of dads - "PORTLAND" - seriously? When I was the brokest I've ever been, last year, I sold tons of stuff dear to me. Jewelry, artworks, half my shoe collection. Stuff I still miss & think about. Even those of us living close to the bone likely have a pile of things we don't need or want, we just have as shelf filler. I did some really crap, mind-numbing temp work. I echo 16 in saying, it doesn't sound like you've done absolutely everything else you can do before coming up with this really bad idea. Trust me, it's a really bad idea. Even if your kid says he's okay with it, even if you research the laws the everywhere you were gonna send the sweaty skivvies, it's just not okay to make money off of sexually exploiting your child. Or anyone else's minor child. & who cares if the son gets a cut: what kinda message are you sending, here? When things get tough, sell yourself! GAH.

All I can do this week is nod & say - Dan! Great advice.
26
This; @24.

The stupid we will always have with us. Forbid it the kid should find this out.

-Isis Jane
27
Hey PORTLAND-- did you see the cultural headlines this week? The West Memphis 3 were released after 18 years, Damien Echols spent that time on death row. They were found guilty because they wore black & listened to heavy metal music. Yep. There are judges, juries & prosecutors just as, if not more so, ignorant as that.

This just goes to show that it hardly matters if what you're doing is legal or not. This is America, and if the Terrified Right get a hold of you, your goose is cooked.

Just something to think about.
28
Echoing the WTF sentiment about PORTLAND. Good thing he's anonymous cause god damn if someone said that to me about their kid in real life I'd be calling CPS so fast.
The fact that there are a LOT of ways you could be making money - including whoring yourself and your presumably consenting wife out, dealing pot; never mind the legally legit routes of selling all your non-essentials or applying for govt assistance - without involving your minor son in sex work really makes me think this is something you'd like to do and you're looking for an excuse. Get help.
29
"Food is the first thing, morals follow on" B. Brecht
Dan, you are right. The family is hurting.
30
@13, 14: Andie! We've been trying to figure out how to do that for a while. Do you just do a close italics HTML tag by itself in a comment?
32
As one, let me say that "furriness" is not easy to shake - kudos for 'accepting' it (the perceived and real drama in my life around *explaining* it and trying to come out as a sexual critter in my mid-teens wrecked me, even if my folks really couldn't have given two shits as long as I never tried to meet anyone out of my age group).

So, point here: Have the 'choking' talk, but don't panic. Collars have their appeal for certain people, but from someone who's spent enough time in one - humans don't have fur, our necks are quite sensitive, and just sleeping in one can leave a terrible mark (as well as being uncomfortable!) if you roll the wrong way.

There's also a motivation to wear them too tight to get them to sit 'right' - not to be asphyxiated, but to feel fully wrapped and 'collared' rather than 'necklaced' (and to try to stop the thing from sliding down and scraping your shoulders). It takes a while to get over that, if someone's going to, and just enjoy the wearing.

A trick hint - "I dunno, kid, I've never seen a dog with one tight enough to get bruised" - might do the trick and get him to move on to exploring a new and even-weirder kink (while still imagining he has a tail).
33
Anyone have a link to the previous week's column? The one on the main archive page doesn't lead to the column, if there (presumably) was one...
34
Motherfucker, you sell everything in your fucking house on eBay and "donate" your fucking blood. You pimp your wife out (you know, because she's a consenting adult) if you really need an X-box that bad. And your kid? Maybe he goes and shovels some driveways, mows some lawns. Retrieves carts at the supermarket. Whatever light labor they allow CHILDREN to do these days. But his underwear? Fuck you. I don't care if you're living in your car, your kid's underwear is not for sale to the general public.

35
My first thought regarding PORTLAND: Fucking Christ, what the fuck is fucking wrong with you you fucking fuckhead?

And good on you for pointing out that WTF's son being a furry isn't the issue (too bad you couldn't make that same distinction for the podcast this week). That said, odds are they're not trying out choking play: the kid probably just doesn't yet know how to wear the collar right and either had it on too tight, slept with it on, or both.
36
Agree with @34. Also, the 14 year old kid isn't old enough to consent to the use of his images for sexual purposes, so his consent is a nullity.

And since everything on the internet is permanent, your plan to exploit your child will stay out there when he is at college, applying for jobs, etc. I look forward to your son writing to Savage one day: "Hey Dan, I have this great girlfriend and we are very serious. Problem is, she googled my name and found out my parents used to sell my underwear when I was 14....."

At a minimum, PORTLANDs plan violates the campsite rule.
37
Portland isn't selling his son's clothes, he's selling the sexual fantasy of his son. How can any parent think it's right to let their kid know that's OK? Fourteen year olds don't have the most common sense, how long before he's meeting old dudes on his own?
38
Uhh, couldn't the bruise on WTF's kid just be a hickey?
39
"the ones I know have human lovers who are their "owners." It's just a different way of doing D/s (owner/pet) and does not involve bestiality."

Logic: premise (NO crossover between furries and beastiality) is disproved by a contradicting case, not proved by a handful of confirming cases.

I said the idea that it's harmless is based on the idea there is NO crossover. I wasn't even saying there WAS any, but just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it's not there.

I'm not even being anti-furry or whatever the heck, I'm just saying we don't need to jump on a concerned parent for being concerned. It would be intuitive that if someone likes their partner to look and act like an animal they might be fantasizing about the real deal (which, while squicky, isn't inherently immoral since they're not harming a living thing). Again: I said, it would be intuitive, not that it's what's actually happening.

If a guy asked me to put my hair in pigtails, put on some frilly pink panties and bring one of those oversized lollipops next time we get together... well... I'd have some questions. Especially since I could pass for 16, no props necessary.

But I'm old-fashioned, so whatever.

Finally: hickeys are traditonally on the side of the neck, collar buckles are traditionally on the front.
40
I never do this but I call fake on PORTLAND. This seems like an attempt to discredit Dan by seeing if he would green light this.
41
@39 mydriasis
"I'd have some questions"

Such as?
42
@ 39 - "hickeys are traditonally on the side of the neck"

You are indeed old-fashioned. I leave hickeys all around, but especially on the back of the neck and shoulders (if my partner's into it of course).
43
"http://socialmoderatefiscalconservative.…

not all republicans are bad and hate gays!! "

And are there any Republican candidates who espouse those positions? No? Then yes, all Republican politicians are bad and hate gays. If you are a fiscal conservative who doesn't hate gays, then why not vote for one of the Democratic politicians who's a fiscal conservative but social moderate? They've been the dominant force in the Democratic party for a long time.
44
@39 Didn't mean to suggest no one ever. Just meant, perfectly possible for it to be totally harmless fun, as it is with the people I know. For the record, lots of people are into "Daddy/baby" games, too, without being interested in pedophilia.
45
I have a question about the asexuality letter. Do asexuals masturbate or become sexual aroused? Also, are there asexuals who identify as gay or straight? Seems like this would be the case.
46
I have a question about asexuals: Do asexuals masturbate? Experience sexual arousal?
47
@32 - "I dunno, kid, I've never seen a dog with one tight enough to get bruised" -- excellent suggestion!
48
@9 - I'm with you on this one. Furries, pet play and collars are three different things. Correct me if I'm wrong (and forgive me for my shitty spelling, English is not my first language), but a furry is a anthropomorphized animal character that may or may not be sexualized - the furry fan wears full a full-body fursuit. Pet-play is a BDSM type of roleplay that where one or more of the participants acts out in a way characteristic of an animal (usually a dog, cat or horse) and another participant plays the role of its owner - although a pet could be wearing a collar (leash), he may or may not be *collard* by the owner. A collar is a symbol in the BDSM community that the submissive/slave is owned by a Dominant/Master.
49
@mydriasis

re: kinksters..

I'm 29 and I really don't get the whole ear stretching thing, plenty of people my age do this, but really, when you take them out are your ears not permanently stretched?? Ever seen those pics of tribal women in National Geographic when they take their 'gauges' out? Jesus, can't wait to see what these people look like when they are 50+.. Ugh. The urge to cover one's self with tattoos is also going to look pretty fucking stupid past a certain age too.. well good luck to them I guess.
50
@39:
The problem with that premise is that it's inherently flawed by the nature of 1. people being able to have multiple interests, and 2. asking even furries themselves to pin down the definition of what "furry" is is like trying to nail Jello to a wall.

Speaking as someone who has longtime knowledge of the subject, I (and the vast majority of furries I know) find it a tad annoying that being a furry automatically makes folks unfamiliar with the fandom assume that you either like to have sex in fursuits or with real animals. I'd say easily that 95% of self-identified furries/furry fans/whatever they feel like calling themselves do NOT even own fursuits (expensive, hot, difficult to transport, etc) and the small community that does, very few of them choose to deliberately get them messy for *any* reason (mostly due to the expense and difficulty of cleaning something that large, made out of pretty pricey specialty material). Even at the largest furry convention in the US (an event where one might imagine wearing a fursuit would be the most likely), out of 4400 attendees this year, there were less than 900 fursuiters in attendance.

I do not believe that furry itself has any crossover with bestiality (as the point of furry is animals with human characteristics, or humans with animal characteristics--furries tend to treat their characters as if they were simply people that happen to look like animals, and perhaps with some touches of what one might imagine animal behavior would be like in a humanlike society), but that being said, much like there are an assortment of furries who are into BDSM and assorted kink play, there are furries who are also interested in less than...stellar conduct. Especially with bestiality, people outside the fandom sometimes have a hard time understanding the difference between "animal people" and animals, and the fact that the fandom is often seen as heavily sexualized only adds to the misconception.

I often see the sexual kink assortment of the furry community as kinda just mirroring the world at large...furry fans are just people, after all...if a tad geeky, and a tad more open about their sexuality. (The most boring answer is never the one people want to hear, though. Haha.) That being said, bestiality is actually one of the few things I've seen the furry community at large truly and loudly shun, despite being open to much else. Are there some folks who do? I don't deny it. But over and over again I've seen those people get mocked, harassed, and often banned from events and online communities when found out, so the idea that being a furry automatically puts you under suspicions of bestiality inclinations is, well, an idea that only gets formed on the outside, I think.

I often use this metaphor:
Many people like chocolate. Some people are HUGE fans of chocolate and read books about it, think about it often, like spending time talking to other chocolate fans, or even learn to create their own chocolate art. Some people involve chocolate in sex. It does not logically follow that EVERYONE who likes chocolate wants to have sex with it.
51
@48:
Not all furry fans wear fursuits, but outside of that I think you have the idea, yes. (Also, some furry fans call themselves "furries" as well as the actual characters themselves, which only adds to the confusion...)
52
You know, hubby and wife could sell their plasma for around $500 a month for the both of them.
53
It's been said we are all the funny-cartoon animal of the stories of our lives.

It's like in "Understanding Comics" when Scott McCloud talks about how even though we don't see ourselves when we interact with others, we still hold an image of ourselves in our imagination. Because of the remove, this image of ourselves tends to be more idealized from how we literally present ourselves. This relates to how anime is suited to drawing-in readers to identify with their protagonists. This association carries over into the presentation of funny-animal cartoons.

In this way, the appeal of furriness could be in reconciling the idealization of something like porn with actual sex, since the participants are literally adopting the roles. Associating furriness with bestiality rather than this dynamic isn't inherently something the practitioners bring to the kink, it's something the outsiders do. It's like when children are made ashamed for things that are completely innocent. It's crapping on what it takes for the practitioners to be unself-conscious when they have sex. We should hope to do better than to walk away from others with chunks of them in our stomachs.
54
I don't think it's ethical to put up a picture of someone else's 14 year old your site. Maybe a picture of yourself at 14, but nothing else passes the ethical sniff test.
55
@43:
There were 4 Republican state senators in NY who voted for the gay marriage bill, so maybe they don't all hate gays.
56
@43:
There were 4 republican state senators in NY who voted for the gay marriage bill, and it couldn't have passed without them, so maybe they don't all hate gays.
57
As a fiscal conservative + social liberal, I get tired of hearing about how voting for Republicans = hating gays. At least Ron Paul and Gary Johnson have said they would allow states to legalize it if they want.

I haven't heard a lot of high-profile gay marriage support from Obama or other prominent Democrats or the party as a whole. They don't campaign against it either, but that's how they sucker everyone.

Face it, mainstream politicians of either party are hostile to gays and marijuana. If you want to vote for Democrats for other reasons, fine, but admit that vote is just as anti-gay as a Republican vote it.
59
@57 - so, as a fiscal conservative, who are your favorite politicians at the national level today?
60
@ 55 - Gee, FOUR of them! Out of a total of...?

You're right, maybe they don't ALL hate the gays... But the overwhelming majority do.

Besides, as some rich NY businessmen had already stated their support for gay marriage, it might also just have been a business decision for those senators. Don't want to lose those precious campaign funds!
61
@57 I'm sorry but...no. That is absolutely not the case. Are democrats guilty of not fighting hard enough for equality? Absolutely, we can agree on that for sure. But their indifference does not even come close to the Republicans balls-to-the-wall-out-and-out attack on gay people! The Dems are culpable, I agree. But you cannot possibly be suggesting that these two evils are the same! Can you??

Unfortunately, when it comes to making a choice in politics these days, the choice is usually between the lesser of two evils. Does that suck? Yeah, but it doesn't make the choice any less important.
62
@59 - Rand and Ron Paul at least qualify as fiscally conservative, and for my social liberal side they stand up for the 4th Amendment. Ron preaches against the drug war as well as all our current foreign wars. And they have actually operated and voted consistently with what they say. There are other issues I'm not so comfortable with them on and they're not perfect.

@61 - "Republicans balls-to-the-wall-out-and-out attack on gay people!"

There aren't many Democrats at the Santorum level, but they do not give a shit about equality. Also consider I never claimed to be a single-issue voter and often don't vote at all.
63
re: Portland, what i find weird is that he wants to use his REAL son's stuff and that he TOLD his son his plans.

if he's so broke, he could have easily created a fake son with a fake bio and fake photos (photos easily purchased from many online stock photo sites that let u use the photos legally.) then go out to fucking TJ Maxx or Walmart or any other cheap clothing emporium and buy teenage sized gym clothes, jock, undies etc, put them on yourself and go jogging around Porland's lovely riverwalk - you'll not only sweat but get a nice work out as well, douchbag. And then sell them on ebay or what ever place you can, using fake son as bait.

I agree with other posters, he's got a thing for the son, and this is a way sublimate his sexual feelings for his boy.

AND LASTLY MOM.... if you're reading this, you better have a REAL direct talk with you husband and find out his real intentions and then have a heart to heart talk to your son and see if three has been any inappropriate funny stuff between him and his dad.
64
@61 - Let me rephrase: you are correct when it comes to their rhetoric, the Republicans are worse when chasing after the ignorant old people vote. As far as what they actually do in office and their voting record, the difference becomes marginal. This is not unique to gay issues.
65
also agree this maybe a hoax.
66
I have to say, it's nice to get some good ol'-fashioned weird sexuality back into Savage Love. The mushy relationship stuff gets kind of boring.
67
*sigh*

okay, here goes...

@42
yes, that's why I said "traditionally". I did not say "that's the only place I've ever had/given a hickey".

@EricaP

yup. I was just trying to say that just because she's concerned doesn't make her closeminded. Not everyone is super-initiated to Dan's Magical Mystery Tour of kink (I've been reading his column for years, and had lots of kinky/poly/nontraditional friends when I was younger, several of whom I'm still in various degrees of contact with today) and we should give people credit, and the chance to be open minded and not pounce on any sign of hesitation or relunctance as some kind of hidden bigotry. I'm not talking so much as you in specific, more the tone of a lot of people's answers to things in general.

@Mr. J.

Seriously? Needlessly obtuse.

"Hey do you want to have sex with prepubescent girls? Because it seems like you might." is a question I might ask such a partner.
68
Oh

@49 star,

I believe ears stretched under a 00 will return back to normal after the gauges are taken out. If you don't know: gauges indicate smaller thickness with larger numbers, so I think your traditional earring post is about 14 or 16 gauge if I'm not mistaken. A 00 and above usually doesn't return to normal but if the person really wants I think there's a little procedure that will restore the lobes.

I've never stretched my ears and have no interest but I think mildly stretched ones can be kind of cute.

I have no tattoos but I think they can be nice on other people. Though the idea of putting on what is essentially a fashion accessory that you can't take off seems foolish to me. "I'm going to love this (slapbracelet/tamagotchi/moodring/pair of mchammer pants) FOREVAR!" Tattoos almost always date people. I can usually tell how old someone is by looking at their tattoo, estimating what year it's from and then assuming they were in their late teens or early twenties around then. :p

Only non-ear peircing I ever got was my tongue, and that generally doesn't even scar when it gets taken out.
70
Your friend may have decided to identify as asexual because he wants to opt out because he finds the games required exhausting.

And if that's the case, it's a perfectly valid lifestyle choice. Not every self-identified asexual is someone who has never gotten laid, or couldn't. Some of them have, and could, but have decided that the returns yielded just don't justify the cost of time, energy, and resources. Some people gave sex and romantic relationships the old college try, found them ultimatley overrated, and decided that their time, energy, and resources were better allocated elsewhere.

Maybe, as a certain popular web-based critic phrased it, "I can still see the appeal of emptying …
71
Maybe, as a certain popular web-based critic phrased it, "I can still see the appeal of emptying one's grubby little speed bag. I'm just lost on why it's so important that you catch the residue in another person's organic waste paper basket."
72
@71

I read his whole post.
While your comment that "Some of them have, and could" is likely true of many asexuals, I doubt it's true of him in particular. He sounds pretty insufferable.

In reference to that direct quote, I have to give you my favourite comparison.

The idea that sex is akin to masturbation is absolutely insane to me. But that's just personal perspective.

Do you remember in Pulp Fiction, when John Travolta's character is trying to convince Samuel Jackson's character that a footrub is akin to oral sex? And he says 'it's not the same thing!' and Travolta's character replies 'it's not the same thing, but it's at least the same ballpark.'

I believe his response is "it's not the same ballpark, it's not even the same SPORT".

That is how I feel about sex and masturbation.
73
Alright, I'm not condoning PORTLAND's behavior at all. Engaging in anything that could be seen as child pornography is seriously icky and not at all a good idea. But, we don't know how this whole conversation came about. I highly doubt that the first time they were having trouble making rent the goto solution was selling Jr's underwear. My first thought on the subject was that Jr probably thought of it. He saw that episode of Law and Order or he heard some friends talking about a website and mentioned it because he knew mom and dad were having some financial troubles. After that its not hard to believe that PORTLAND's response was, "no, no we could never...wait, we could get how much money?" I could just be making up excuses because I don't want to believe that any parent could be that despicable. But I do think before we draw and quarter PORTLAND we should consider how this whole thing came about.
74
FINALLY! A return to the good old "Damn, you're a hot mess!" pervs we all remember and love from your columns of yesteryear. You're a gentleman and a scholar, Dan, and if you keep this up you'll have droves of new readers beating a path to your door.

@66: Exactly!

@33: Yeah, I finally managed to get to it from a link in the "most commented articles" list on the side of the page, but apparently when Dan titles his column with a web address, there's no normal way to get to that column. Is there a place to file a bug report about that? Anyway, here's the link: http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Savag… It's the column with the title "www.humpseattle.com" that starts "I went to Craigslist to look..."
75
Trying again:

thestranger.com/seattle/SavageLove?oid=9…

That's "/seattle/SavageLove?oid=9539475", in case it truncates.
76
@63: Excellent point: he should use his own underwear and pretend that they're his son's. He was clear about not wanting to use his son's actual name and picture.

@67: Huh? So if someone wants to engage in rape fantasies, would you ask if they actually want to rape someone? Or if someone wants to engage in consensual BDSM, would you ask if they actually want to beat up someone nonconsensually?

People often want all sorts of fantasies that they think are wrong or wouldn't do in real life. And the age play you describe is pretty common and tame.
77
Thanks for another spot on column, Dan!
Points well taken.
78
I've got it: LW posts pictures of himself at age 14, and sells drawers that he's soiling now, with his nasty, hairy, middle-aged man body. Throw a little 'rhoid blood in there, and the perverts can let their imaginations run wild.
79
@76 BlackRose

Thanks for your response to @67.

Just as people who are into bestiality get drummed out of furry society (see above), so too do pedophiles get drummed out of adult baby/age play circles. And not just drummed out but reported to the authorities.
81
@79: You mean child molesters and abusers get drummed out, don't you? Though the word is frequently abused and used as an insult, 'pedophile' just means anyone who is turned on by the idea of age play, which is pretty common. Age play is a consensual way to enact fantasies. That doesn't mean they would actually molest a kid.
82
The letter from PORTLAND is fake fake fake!
83
@78: Sorry. Late to the party, thought I read everything, and obviously didn't.
85
@64 I do get what you are saying, and I respect conservatives like you, meaning ones who are not crazy and hateful, and just have a more traditionally conservative view of domestic economic policy. If that were the case with all conservatives we could have a very productive debate that would benefit the country as a whole. Unfortunately what Hunter78 @84 says is true. At least right now, those few fair-minded individuals do not speak for the group as a whole.
86
It's wrong to assume at someone who is a "furry" HAS to be into beastiality. But being a furry doesn't not ensure that one isn't also into beastiality and it's not unreasonable to think that a connection could exist. See all those modifiers? They were there from the start. So there's no need for people to be jumping down my throat as if I said "OMG FURRIES LIKE DOING ANIMALS THAT'S GROSS".

I didn't.

Though "age play" is mild in the kink scene. "Common" might be a bit of a stretch for the rest of the sexual universe. Depending on what you mean by "common" and also what you mean by "age play" and also on what the definition of "is" is. :p

So again. Though not all people into pretending their partner is prepubescent are likely to actually hurt a young child, it is possible they are a pedophile.

By the way, pedophile is a real word with a real defintion which is not "someone into age play". Are you kidding? I know Dan likes to make up new meanings to people's names as it suits him but jeez.

Though the DSM has a lengthy definition of what pedophilia is, let's just go to our trusty dictionary, shall we?

pe·do·phile   /ˈpidəˌfaɪl/ Show Spelled[pee-duh-fahyl] Show IPA
noun Psychiatry .
an adult who is sexually attracted to young children.

Again, this is NOT the same as someone who molests/rapes children. We can all agree on that. Someone can be attracted to one group and not act on it (ask any closeted married gay person from days of yore).

But it's not unreasonable logic for someone to think that someone into age play is more likely to be a pedophile than someone who isn't. If you can show me data that says otherwise, please do.

Therefore: not an unreasonable question to ask. If a guy asked me to pretend to be male I might also wonder if he was gay or bisexual. It's possible he's not! But it's not unreasonable to wonder if he is.

87
@62, thanks. I gather your socially liberal side doesn't mind Ron and Rand Paul's desire to make abortion illegal wherever possible?
88
"Fiscal conservative, Social liberal" in a nutshell:

I know that conservative social policy is hateful and wrong, that gay people, women, and minorities deserve equal rights... but I care about my money more so I'm going to vote Republican. But I want everyone to know I'm not ignorant... just greedy.

I grew up in a family of them, don't front.
89
@81 BlackRose

Yes. I had in mind the actual case I know of concerning a person who came sniffing around my local BDSM group's age players for access to an actual child. That person was turned in to the cops immediately. This was the one and only time such an incident occurred in all the years of this group's existence.

@86 mydriasis
"it is possible they are a pedophile"

It is possible that anyone is. And it's up to you, the person casting aspersions (modifiers are beside the point), to provide positive correlations. It's not for the rest of us to prove the negative.
90
@ 73 - Yes, parents CAN be "that despicable." Nice try blaming it on the kid though. Gee, that is exactly what pedophiles do! They transfer their neuroses on to the victims instead of taking responsibility for THEIR actions. It is extremely doubtful that the kid approached his parents unless you think the whole family is some white trash, sit-com inspired hot mess, in which case, you could be right. Again, doubtful and certainly ridiculous.
I could tell you stories of what I've seen parents do to their children which they perceive as totally acceptable without a question of whether their actions are "right or wrong." Such things that the child will accept because they are the children and the only role models they have are the adults in their homes. Later, in the adult years, we get to see how the treatment manifests itself in the form of anti-social and self-harming behaviour in varying degrees.
So, stop blaming the kid, even by implying it. They are the adults and let's be clear to ALL so-called parents on this thread, YOU are the adult role model in your child's life whether you like it or not. ANY sort of treatment towards the child which does not benefit the child WILL eventually cause damage.
Too many people think that just because they've had sex, they can be parents. That is certainly not the case. I'd even go so far to say that there are a few on here who exhibit classic sexually abused pasts. They are quite easy to spot through the wording of some of the posts here. Think back to how that betrayal felt when you realised that everyone else's parents weren't doing that to them.
It is never the child's fault. Never.
91
@86: Sure, a furry might be into bestiality. And someone who plays Grand Theft Auto might be into shooting actual prostitutes. But that's not the way to bet, ya know? The two really have little to do with each other.

Most furries I know have fetishes that revolve around fantasy roleplay, either online or in person. Those fantasies are centered around animals that are anthropomorphic, i.e. have human characteristics. This is rather different from wanting to fuck something that's not human in any way, shape, or form.
92
@86: If someone's into age play, presumably they're turned on by the fantasy of sex with a young child... that is usually the whole point of age play. Hence, they'd fall under the definition of a pedophile (being attracted to young children). I think we agree on that, and that there's nothing wrong with consensually expressing the attraction or fantasies through age play.

What I'm not understanding is why you think that's a problem, or why you would feel the need to ask a bunch of questions. Again, if someone was turned on by rape play, they'd be a "rapeophile" (or whatever the actual term is for being aroused by forced sex, if there is one) but not a rapist. Would you feel concerned that someone who wanted to play rape might actually rape someone? Do you understand that having fantasies and acting them out consensually doesn't make someone more likely to abuse another person?
93
Dan, I want to thank you for coming out and saying this: 'And for the record: No one is "100 percent okay psychologically," and not everyone needs sex and/or a romantic relationship to feel content and enjoy life.'

Past discussions you've had about asexuality had led me to believe you didn't understand or perhaps didn't believe that not everyone needed sex in their lives. I now realize you do get it.
94
@ Mr. J
That's an issue of freedom, my friend. I may require whatever I like of a sexual partner, and they may pick whatever requirements they like of me.

@Blackrose
Acting it out doesn't make it more likely (I believe it makes it less likely) but HAVING the fantasy does make it more likely.

Or are you trying to say that those who fantasize about rape are no more likely to rape than someone who does not.

I think it's about... roughly 80% of men who have fantasized about rape?

As for pedophilia inherently, it's not a problem in general, although it is a problem for me. If someone is primarily attracted to prepubescent children, then I'd prefer not to have sex with them. Not because it's "wrong" to have an attraction, but for the same reason I'd prefer a straight guy over a gay guy (or a bisexual man who is primarily attracted to men).

P.S. that's my right, innit?
95
@80: Like saying that non-violent people forfeit their right to defend themselves against violence. Not tolerating those who seek to destroy us and our tolerance is not hypocrisy; it's self-defense.
96
@94
Bullshit from start to finish.
99
@96

Well that was productive.
Thanks for your enlightening feedback. I think we both learned more about the world.
100
Hey, PORTLAND a-hole: the phrase is "Keep Portland Weird (or Beered, or Beard, or Queer, or whathaveyou)" NOT "Keep Portland Skeezy". Quit making us look bad.
101
Oh P.S. if everything I said was bullshit... let me correct all of it.

Interpreting my sexual partner's desires is NOT a matter of personal freedom

I may NOT require whatever I like of a sexual partner, and they may NOT pick whatever requirements they like of me.

Acting it out a fantasy DOES make it more likely that a person will want the real thing.

But HAVING the fantasy makes it no more likely the person will want the real thing.

*speculation based on a vaguely rememebered statistic from a textbook*

As for pedophilia inherently, it's IS a problem in general, (although it is a problem for me.)

If someone is primarily attracted to prepubescent children, then I'd prefer not to have sex with them. Not because it's "wrong" to have an attraction, but for the same reason I'd prefer a straight guy over a gay guy (or a bisexual man who is primarily attracted to men).
(the above were my personal preferences, I didn't know how to adjust them to Mr. J's liking. Maybe he could let me know)

and finally...P.S. it is NOT my right to choose whom I do and do not have sex with.
102
@81:

As Austin Powers said "That train had sailed" -- boy has it sailed. you want to reclaim the word pedophile? good luck, sweetie; and I'm saying that as someone with fantasies that range considerably out of my age range.
103
@ 67 (about 42) - Sorry for attempting some mild and innocuous humor on you. I sure don't think I'll do it again!
104
Letter Writer #1: Gross. Do not involve your kid. Just don't.

For that matter, why involve anybody? Personally, I'm thinking a spray bottle with some heavily diluted soy sauce and rice vinegar, maybe just a touch of anchovy paste or some sort of ripe cheese. Presto, shorts with that "worn" smell by the truckload! And no skeevy, unethical, child endangerment issues to deal with.

Except maybe he might get a visit from the Federal Trade Commission, for false advertising? Though my two cents are that the bastards ordering up underaged underwear deserve to be bilked.
105
If your wife has nice ankles/feet and is game, you could sell her used shoes (preferably heels) to foot fetishists. Much lower creep factor, everyone involved is a consenting adult, no legal gray areas. I knew someone who did this for a while on eBay. I think I recall that if the shoes were really well-used, i.e. they had a foot-shaped stain in them, that was what the buyers were looking for. Probably they wouldn't even need to be your wife's real shoes, if you found suitable used heels at thrift stores and then photographed her feet in them.
106
Underwear? You fucking fuck, mister your fucked!
Put a elastic band around your fucking head and give it a fucking snap ya fucker.
God your a fucking dumb ass or good at trolling.
107
@45/46/KF79

Those are great questions. Some asexuals masturbate and some don't - just like people of other orientations. I haven't actually asked other aces (people who's orientation is asexual) about whether or not they experience arousal though I know of at least one study (Brotto) who tested levels of arousal in asexual women and I don't recall exactly what the conclusion was but I remember that her asexual participants did experience arousal. While it isn't incorrect to call it "sexual arousal" it is important to keep in mind that women who identify as asexual may not view the arousal as necessarily relating to sex. Since I can only speak for myself I'll use myself as an example with the disclaimer that my experience is not everyone's experience. When I was a teen I walked around in a state of arousal almost all the time... like constantly, and now as an adult I still experience arousal frequently but the thought of intercourse is actually a huge turn off for me. There are other things that turn me on and masturbating does relieve the tension (and help me relax and help me sleep, etc) but that's all chemical reactions - not sexual attraction, not sexual desire. I've talked to a lot of other aces and some of them use masturbation as a way to relax or help them get to sleep but some have compared it to getting a massage- it just feels good and isn't about sex at all for them - they may or may not fantasize but, like me, it probably isn't a fantasy about intercourse. I've also met aces who have told me that they do not masturbate- some had tried it and said it just didn't really do anything for them or wasn't worth the energy and others found the idea disgusting. But then I know lots of non-ace women who find the idea of masturbating to be totally disgusting (probably related to this whole socializing of girls to think of their vulvas as dirty, sadly). Anyway, the Brotto study and my own surveys suggest that asexual men masturbate slightly less frequently then men of other orientations and asexual women masturbate less frequently as well (something like 10% less likely to masturbate? It's been a while since I looked at the numbers). Anyway, I have a little bit of information on my website which I haven't updated in ages, but hopefully will get back to soon! : http://AsexualSexologist.com
108
@45/46/KF79

(sorry if this is a double post, this is the first time I've commented here and I'm not sure if it's supposed to show up right away or if I did something wrong... won't try again, promise)

Those are great questions. Some asexuals masturbate and some don't - just like people of other orientations. I haven't actually asked other aces (people who's orientation is asexual) about whether or not they experience arousal though I know of at least one study (Brotto) who tested levels of arousal in asexual women and I don't recall exactly what the conclusion was but I remember that her asexual participants did experience arousal. While it isn't incorrect to call it "sexual arousal" it is important to keep in mind that women who identify as asexual may not view the arousal as necessarily relating to sex. Since I can only speak for myself I'll use myself as an example with the disclaimer that my experience is not everyone's experience. When I was a teen I walked around in a state of arousal almost all the time... like constantly, and now as an adult I still experience arousal frequently but the thought of intercourse is actually a huge turn off for me. There are other things that turn me on and masturbating does relieve the tension (and help me relax and help me sleep, etc) but that's all chemical reactions - not sexual attraction, not sexual desire. I've talked to a lot of other aces and some of them use masturbation as a way to relax or help them get to sleep but some have compared it to getting a massage- it just feels good and isn't about sex at all for them - they may or may not fantasize but, like me, it probably isn't a fantasy about intercourse. I've also met aces who have told me that they do not masturbate- some had tried it and said it just didn't really do anything for them or wasn't worth the energy and others found the idea disgusting. But then I know lots of non-ace women who find the idea of masturbating to be totally disgusting (probably related to this whole socializing of girls to think of their vulvas as dirty, sadly). Anyway, the Brotto study and my own surveys suggest that asexual men masturbate slightly less frequently then men of other orientations and asexual women masturbate less frequently as well (something like 10% less likely to masturbate? It's been a while since I looked at the numbers). Anyway, I have a little bit of information on my website which I haven't updated in ages, but hopefully will get back to soon! : http://AsexualSexologist.com

    Please wait...

    and remember to be decent to everyone
    all of the time.

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