Savage Love

Pretty Little Hippie

Comments

103
maybe it is just me, but I have this awful feeling that DARE/outofwater is a serial killer who preys on women and gay dudes.
104
I also have dated someone with this MO (a bi woman). No longer communicate with her due to the inexplicable urge to break her face that would arise whenever she would again begin to explain in excrutiating detail how sad it was that everyone interpreted her nonconsensual emotional sadism as such instead of as a genuine effort to make a real connection and find herself. Some people just can't hear themselves.
105
People like DARE are hilarious. HILARIOUS! Can we get a YouTube of this guy defending Britney Spears? Or maybe getting kicked off an airplane? Who's he trying to be, the hippie version of Kim Kardashian? "Oh, boo hoo! Why do people hate me so much? It must because I'm so much PRETTIER than they are! And DEEPER! And MORE SENSITIVE! When I'm trying to get in my neighbor's fiancee's pants while he's away on a business trip, I'm not being a shitbrained, mate-poaching, insecure asshole. I'm 'appreciating her beauty,' like Don Juan! Or like Jesus would have, if he'd had half my game! When I have to step over a legless bum in the street, I actually THINK ABOUT that dollar I could have given them. FOR THE REST OF THE BLOCK! Who does that?! It must mean I'm a philosopher, like Aristotle would have been if he'd had half my grasp of the abstract complexities of dominant societal paradigms. I hope someday to meet a nice, strong woman who will know to treat me like the Princess I am!"

You might want to save those 832 pictures of yourself you uploaded to Facebook onto a hard drive, DARE. It'll give you something to look at after you've aged about 10 more years and everyone else around you manages to find friends and partners despite not being nearly as "awesome" as you. But don't worry- if you end up alone, it'll TOTALLY be because you're prettier.
106
To #95 who wrote,
"
"As a person who finally realized my gender identity, not my sexual orientation, was unusual, and is and always has been a non-gendered female, not a woman, I've been there... "

Aquamarine, could you explain your gender identity a little bit more? I'm trying to parse it and am not getting it. Thanks.
"

I consider myself outside the gender system. I don't feel male and I don't feel female. While I feel I have both (conventionally designated) 'male' and 'female' traits, I consider myself nongendered rather than bigendered, third gendered, or some other affirmative concept that involves gender. Some dykes, I'm sure, feel this way.

It goes way back, before age 5, and I think is a combination of wanting to feel 'special and different' and an awareness that boys got all the goodies and girls had to be passive and 'feminine' and I was going to reject anything that held me back. I rejected gender as a meaningful concept.

So while I am attracted to males only (believe me, I've had plenty of opportunities with women), I don't exactly consider myself straight. I identify with my biology (female) rather than a gender identity (woman). But I don't go around telling people "I'm not a woman".
107
I know I must seem self obsessed. And I have had a lot of time to think in my life, a blessing. Never had to hold down a full time job. Basically traveled a lot, worked some, but lived like a dharma bum from Kerouac's 'On The Road'. Plenty of(too much?) time to philosophize.

I skate by on my good looks and charm, I admit. But I realize that people so often like me because of how I look and that makes me uncomfortable. I understand how much of life is base don appearance.

Personally I feel that a reason why conflict occurs between me and my brothers when they realize that women pay more attention to me than to them, or that I have more potential to get laid. They are faced with their own lack of physical beauty. This makes me kind of sad. I think that the world will not be at peace until all men (the ones who are interested in sex with women) have access to regular lovemaking with beautiful women (or a woman, I am increasingly interested in monogamy).

I have slept with married women because I can, but also because these women were not happy at home. I regret doing it, but I have learned a lot about relationships. Women open up to me. I guess what I have learned makes me sad, because I have concluded that for the most part people are miserable in the world. Fear and desperation trump happiness. We live under strict hierarchies, power structures, and domination. Not a fertile foundation for self actualized, confident and complete human beings methinks.

To the men who think I am just a closet case, go ahead and try to reduce this discussion to simple either/or false dichotomies. At best I would admit I am bi, under certain circumstances, but even that label I personally find lame. Label yourself whatever you want, but keep your labels to yourself. Not everyone is running the same operating system you are. I would suggest you check out linux. It is much more open minded thatn your mac/windows dualism.

For those that had constructive words and specific criticism, thanks. I enjoy dialogue, and I think it is important that we all continue to ask tough questions. The plight of humanity is far from over. Open dialogue can help us, I have faith.
108
You are just the most pretentious twat with the least interesting things to say, aren't you?

Why bother trying to appear literate? All you'll achieve in life is to be a trust-fund himbo.
109
Congrats, Dan, you earned your vacation, right here, by choosing three letters you knew would rile your regular audience. While I'm especially impressed with the sheer venom of persons who reacted with quivering hatred to DARE (rather than just ignoring him, LIKE THEY CONSTANTLY TOLD EVERYONE ELSE TO DO), I have another reason for praising your inclusion of his letter.

You literally presented your readers with "every straight guy's dream", and her letter got far, far fewer responses than did DARE's! Bravo, sir, well-played! Martini?
110
@106, have you talked about this with your female friends? I think it's more common than you think. I don't feel particularly female or male, myself, I feel like "me" (thanks, MaiaD@90!) Some rough days, I don't even feel like myself, I feel like a consciousness oddly stuck in this body I barely know how to operate.

As far as girly things, in my teens I avoided them like the plague. But I like guys, so I learned that I needed to flirt and dress like a woman if I wanted guys to notice me sexually. Feel free to identify however you want, but don't assume that everyone in a dress feels like a woman.
111
@109: Did you look at ANEMD's original letter of the day? She got a ton of responses there and she also posted on that thread. Whereas DARE replied in this thread, which is why everyone focused on him.
112
Dare, you are a tiresome, tiresome, tiresome boy.
113
Hi Dare

I doubt you should take any of the negative comments seriously. Whats evident is that you influence people easily and have an advantage.
I'm sure that will cause a lot of jealousy.

To me morality is a made up convention, which is unequally crafted through the advantages of the powerful, as by the bottom interests of the meek. Which is in a roundabout way simply that only might makes right.

If I were in your 1/100 situation I wouldn't allow the statistically normal to influence me one bit, with counter arguments attempting to dominate my world view and perspective.

However I'd also like to take a more pragmatic stance - your advantage will possibly also cause you loneliness. People are selfish and will only hang out with you if there's something in it for themselves, and the old saying fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me, fits. The moment they realize they can't get anything out of you, they will take stances from manipulating public sentiment about you to your detriment (showing their own might and influence), to ignoring you.

Use people strategically. Don't allow mediocre's to dim your shine. Don't read the same books your neighbors do if you don't want to be as ignorant as them. Don't look to others to define your limits. Create your own identity. I'm sure you could become something to behold if you really wanted. Think big.
114
107-DARE-outofwater-- Why did you write to Dan? Why are you writing follow-ups? Usually the letters in his column are from people asking for advice. They agree or disagree. Sometimes the letters in his column are from people voicing opinions. Again, there's agreement and disagreement. Your letter is about talking about yourself. Your subsequent comments are about talking about yourself. You say you're frustrated, not confused, and the problem is with everyone else's confusion. What do you want, for us all to boo-hoo along with you? And yet, according to you, you're not a narcissist, a manipulator, (or my guess: schizophrenic). What sort of response are you looking for?
115
"I think that the world will not be at peace until all men (the ones who are interested in sex with women) have access to regular lovemaking with beautiful women"

*PFFT* HAHAHAHAHAHA
116
Disappointing edit of DARE's original letter.

Only one "so to speak", and it no longer includes the hilarious description of his lovemaking style as "cinematic".
117
@106, @110:

I am biologically male and also identify with what you're saying. I've thought sometimes about transitioning to female gender but realized mainly I would far prefer living without a gender, or, in my ideal world, getting to go out as a man or a woman on different days. I've realized I probably will never actually transition as part of my desire is that women seem to have more ability to dress in feminine or somewhat masculine clothes/presentations without attracting quite the derision of a man in a skirt, makeup and manicure, and I think that given that I don't have an extremely, extremely intense desire to be a woman 100% of the time, it's probably not worth the hassle of transitioning.
118
@116 HA, That's right! Personally, I like the coy use of "pegged, so to speak" while he's complaining about how people react negatively when they perceive him as gay and flirtatious. Woe is me.
119
@107, DARE,

A). Everyone is self-obsessed. Not everyone shows it.

B) Your sexuality and gender are what they are. Folks, stop carrying water for the "choice of lifestyle" crowd!

C). If you truly love others, then you must understand could versus should. Life is filled with "I could, but I won't" moments. Many are at the heart of what it means to be a caring person, and doing things because you can is usually the mark of an uncaring (in spectrum to vicious) person. You may be pretty on the outside, but failing to care about consequences for others makes you rather ugly on the inside.

Peace.
120
@107, DARE,

A). Everyone Is self-obsessed. Not everyone shows it.

B) Your sexuality and gender are what they are. Folks, stop carrying water for the "choice of lifestyle" crowd!

C). If you truly love others, then you must understand could versus should. Life is filled with "I could, but I won't" moments. Many are at the heart of what it means to be a caring person, and doing things because you can is usually the mark of an uncaring (in spectrum to vicious) person. You may be pretty on the outside, but failing to care about consequences for others makes you rather ugly on the inside.

Peace.
121
Fuck
. I screwed up on the closing tag.

Sorry
122
To the webmaster,

May the posters please get the ability to edit their own posts after submission?

Peace.
123
Everyone is so judgmental Dx!

OMG!! I am so judgmental!!! Dx!!!
124
Dan's second holiday in two months and a column that's nothing but rehashes from previous Slog letters of the day.

It appears that Dan Savage's body has been taken over by the disembodied spirit of the late Peter Gzowski of CBC. We should start seeing annual three-month sabbaticals any day now.
125
@114 Thanks for saying what I was thinking. What is DARE/outofwater looking for here? It seems that it is attention.

My head-shaking conclusion ... whatever they pay shrinks, it's not enough.
126
Okay, I'm read out. The lull in my day is over. Back to work.

Talk about a great way to get your narcissistic rocks off: write a letter like DARE's, which basically screams "LOOK AT ME," and then, when everyone does, engage them in conversation about the fine points of your personality. It's your fifteen minutes of fame, baby. Bask in it.
127
DARE's comments show just how narcissistic he is. How quickly he responded to comments and brushed off any possible opinions on himself. He's not open to interpretation by others himself - he has himself all figured out! Why the hell write then? Clearly he wrote to get validation by having his letter published and then by discussing himself ad nauseam in the comments. How special and important he must be!

Also, to 124 - Jesus, can't a guy take vacation? Good for Dan for being able to take time for himself and his family.
128
@107, Oh you poor misunderstood dharma bum you.
129
wow, DARE, you sound like my ex-boyfriend. And he was an insufferable holier-than-thou D-bag, too.
131
114-- I'd also guess DARE is looking for sympathy, and we're not feeling sympathetic because we see him as wanting sympathy for a completely solvable problem.

There's another typical letter with a thousand non-typical variants. That's the one where someone writes that s/he is attracted to xyz and can't find it. Sometimes xyz in physically impossible. Sometimes it's merely unlikely. The writer is looked down on for holding the unusual attraction (or kink) and deserves sympathy because in this world where not all of us get what we want, the writer is unlikely to find his/hers heart's desire.

But that's another category of letter that DARE hasn't written. He's frustrated because he confuses people.

O.K., DARE, here's a clue: You can get over your frustration by stopping confusing people.

Don't flirt inappropriately. Don't lead people on. Don't seek to destroy relationships and then whine about it.

Decide on boundaries between friendship and sex; make those boundaries clear, and stick to them.

Stop defining yourself as a good sensitive person by your response to other people's pain (heartbroken), and start defining it by your own ability to alleviate pain (might rescue someone but might not).

When someone tells you something that both hurts and is true, stop accusing the truth-teller of projection.

These things are all within your control. You don't have to have gender issues to be a jerk. So stop being a self-absorbed jerk.
132
Lordy I have tried to get into this but every time I try to take a run at one of DARE/fish's posts I get a terrible case of tl;dr. One of the best things about getting into your thirties is that you magically develop the ability to recognise the kind of bullshit that guys like this spew. Dude could be hotter than Alexander SkarsgÄrd in a wet bathing suit contest and it wouldn't matter. Pretty is as pretty does.
133
Oh shit, I think I worked with DARE. He was a sociopath, and he was all peace-love-hippie that threatened me on the job. THAT wasn't quite enough to fire him, because it was his word against mine (of course he did it when no one was watching) but then he drank a glass of wine on the job (total no-no) and was escorted out.
134
I'm gonna echo the most important response to DARE's totally lame, ignoring-everything-Dan-said response:

You can't see someone's soul by looking in their eyes. Stop trying and that'll solve a lot of problems. You think you're connecting with everyone when you're actually connecting with no one.
135
@101 I guess you're an anti-war activist living off the grid, eating only plants, and using absolutely no plastic ever in your life. But since you had to be on a computer to write this...

We're all a part of the system and people have varying degrees of awareness and resistance against the many problematic aspects of modern day life. I take action against it all the time through my diet, my full-time job, my buying choices and my community organizing. And I also often say "fuck this, I'm tired" and go marathon 30Rock.

And I still think DARE's an obnoxious narcissist who seems to see everything in terms of beautiful (himself, women) and not beautiful (most other men, who are envious of him). He's also had a fucking easy life if he's never had to work full-time. I suspect his takeaway from this whole experience will not be about a couple hundred comments telling him "you're doing it wrong," but "bagel understands me!" Alas.
137
"I think high heels were invented by ugly men to keep beautiful women from running away."

*laugh* You may have some problems, DARE, but that's the best line I've heard all week!
138
I think DARE is fake. Now his brothers are jealous of his good looks and potental for scoring hot chicks? I mean he's pushing buttons like a toddler on a keyboard. All over the place. If he was really as he describes himself he really would have no friends. Its a fake. Haha you all got taken in by him/her. Hippie my ass.
139
@101: "DARE, you genuinely sound like a beautiful person - for some reason you have the right mix of neurotransmittors flowing through your brain -however that came about, good on you. I have seen and met enough people in my life to recognize purity, truth and intuition in people, and in my opinion you possess these traits."

A sucker's born every minute. This is how sociopaths thrive, people who take their blather as sincere.

@107: "Not everyone is running the same operating system you are. I would suggest you check out linux. It is much more open minded thatn your mac/windows dualism."

Ok, now I'm convinced. Either this guy is dumber than dirt, the letter and every post since is an active troll, or both.

@113: "Use people strategically. Don't allow mediocre's to dim your shine. Don't read the same books your neighbors do if you don't want to be as ignorant as them. Don't look to others to define your limits. Create your own identity. I'm sure you could become something to behold if you really wanted. Think big."

Uh, sociopaths *are* mediocre people. If they could succeed on their own merits and make emotional connections with others, they wouldn't need to exploit anyone. They are ugly, sad people (which explains why he needs to constantly tell us that people find him charming, when we know that's not the case.)
140
While everyone has been obsessed with DARE (Whatever), I've been thinking about ANEMD (without benefit of palm oil, thank you).

At first, assuming that she dates age appropriate, I was tempted to speculate on what mid-twenties were looking for, or starting to look for in a relationship, but that's been 30 years for me, so what do I know. Next I was tempted to say that, in spite what one might infer from Dan's columns, monogomish is not for everybody. I dare say that for those it does work for it might take a bit more maturity and even self confidence than is found in many people in their mid-twenties; an age when (based on my observations)people are either settling down or just having fun sleeping around. That caused me to think that ANEMD should look at older guys who have had their kids and don't mind that their girlfriend gets around. A guy like that might even know women his own age who need some attention from time to time themselves. Of course, age differences can be fraught with problems as well.

It was then that I re-read her letter and got stuck on the phrase "I'm every dude's dream, right?" and I thought, Whoa. What if a guy wrote a letter complaining about not being able to get in a relationship and said "I'm God's gift to women, right?" Dan and everyone would have been on him like stink on shit. It strikes me that ANEMD needs to take a serious mirror break and ask herself whether she's dragging an unseemly attitude into this relationship quest. After that she can follow Dan's advice.
141
@ 83: You're right on the money.
142
@140: "What if a guy wrote a letter complaining about not being able to get in a relationship and said "I'm God's gift to women, right?" Dan and everyone would have been on him like stink on shit."

People generally responded with rolleyes in the SLLOTD thread.
143
"But allow me to unpack your bullshit for you"

"Not that there's anything wrong with a sadistic streak, properly channeled."

"You're the satyr, DARE, not the faun. Own it."

Ah, Dan, this is why I love you so.

jill
http://inbedwithmarriedwomen.blogspot.co…
144
@86 Kaliann had the best (and kindest) advice. I truly hope, for his own sake, that DARE takes it.

As for the people who stuck up for DARE.... Folks, there are plenty of weird people out there, and it's okay to be weird. There are also weird assholes, and that's not okay. DARE may have a beautiful appearance and a beautiful soul, but he acts like a freaking scary creep.

145
@ANEMD..please visit North Vancouver whenever you can.
146
@138, Jojo, You're so wrong. ("I think DARE is fake. If he was really as he describes himself he really would have no friends. Haha you all got taken in by him/her. Hippie my ass.")

I used to go out with a guy just like this. Beautiful man, 99.44% straight, oddly gendered, flirted with (and provoked) guys, attracted women right and left, eyefucked everyone (love that term). I loved him because it really did seem that he could communicate directly with my soul. What a load of crap that was! He was critical in the extreme, wanted everyone else to follow his rules about how men and women should act. Oh, my god, I'm so oddly relieved to know there's others like him and that somehow it wasn't all my fault.

Sociopathic types can attract many friends. They can be charismatic and beautiful. He's for real, all right.
147
@144: "As for the people who stuck up for DARE...."

Ah, but scary creeps stick up for scary creeps. See the PUA community that this guy escaped from. It's all about conquests for these guys.

@146: I dated a borderline for years, they talk like this. But, their rambling, self-centered, and otherwise braindead manner of speech is predictable and easy to imitate if you can sound so undeservedly pretentious without puking.
148
@142 I can see why people would get upset @ that comment, but from my perspective it IS my dream. I don't see anything wrong with ANEMD acknowledging that her preferred lifestyle choice ranks tops among a lot of men's desires too. She made the mistake of choosing the wrong words is all.
149
@148: "from my perspective it IS my dream. I don't see anything wrong with ANEMD acknowledging that her preferred lifestyle choice ranks tops among a lot of men's desires too"

You're missing the point, what people were rolling their eyes at was that she pretended that no guys were into it, when people were probably getting turned off by things left unsaid by her.

She also mentioned it as if it were her greatest attribute, as if possessing it meant that guys would be beating down her door just for that reason. In reality, it's an element of her desired relationship, but she didn't mention any other context, which led us to fill in the plentiful gaps. Most men may like that fantasy, but reality often gets in the way of any fantasy, especially when spread out over time in the context of a committed relationship. She could be an inconsiderate lover/partner, who knows?

The less information she gives combined with how much she talks herself up as any guy's dream leads to suspicion about what exactly she's leaving out.

Does that make sense?
150
Anemd - You'll find guys that like that, trust me on that. My husband is all about sharing me with other women and most of his friends think he's lucky on that one.
151
I really like DARE. Guys like that frequently make my day.
152
151

Hilariously un-self aware people make your day?
153
I don't know who I feel sorry for DARE or the people who have met him in real life and had to endure his presence. Personally, after reading his replies, I really don't think he's looking for advice, but attention, he seems to want to test how much sh*t he can stir and how many people will notice him(much like his real life).

My advice for DARE would be to be careful of the husbands of the married women he's sleeping around with. Your pretty face might not be so pretty anymore after a crazed husband is done with it.
154
I don't know who I feel sorry for DARE or the people who have met him in real life and had to endure his presence. Personally, after reading his replies, I really don't think he's looking for advice, but attention, he seems to want to test how much sh*t he can stir and how many people will notice him(much like his real life).

My advice for DARE would be to be careful of the husbands of the married women he's sleeping around with. Your pretty face might not be so pretty anymore after a crazed husband is done with it.
155
@153 "I don't know who I feel sorry for DARE or the people who have met him in real life and had to endure his presence."

The latter, definitely. Those same people who are his "enemies" are probably the same people who tell him he's "interesting" and "beautiful" telling others what they *really* think about him when he's not around.
156
Dear ANEMD,

I'm a 23 bi female, and though I do not typically go for ladies older than me, you sound pretty awesome, so I am willing to make an exception.

Currently, I am dating a man, and we would like a lady to occasionally share our bed. I want a super awesome best friend girlfriend "let's all go on a fun date at the arcade and then a movie and then some wine at home" sort of a lady friend.

I realize that maybe this isn't quite what you want, but if you are willing to consider this option, I would also be totally down with finding you a dude as well, while we three party it up.

What do you say?
157
I am numb with all the judgements and guesses and attacks and assumptions. DARE presumably wrote in to get a response from Dan. DARE wanted to put something out there and was fairly thorough in trying to describe how he percieves himself. Dan responded, quite fairly and acurately in my opinion. Now everyone has taken it upon themselves to give their opinions. Who is the narcissist, who is the sociopath, who here is so much better?

I feel like everything that has been said has been after the fact. The fact being that DARE wanted to talk to Dan, and Dan saw fit to reply to DARE. Of course Dare will talk about himself and his opinion of himself as well as his opinion of others. THAT IS THE POINT. Why would he have written to an advice columnist to talk about someone else? Does that really make a person a narcissist? I guess Dan is a shephard of narcissists. :P

Sociopath? What kind of a sociopath bares all his sociopathy everywhere he goes? Would it not behoove said individual to try not to be so open about what they do and want and like? As far as I can tell, DARE is a self aware individual, who has many blind spots. As we all do. But the fact that he actually takes the time to try to break down his ego and motivations is a good sign. If everyone in the world exposed their true motivations I think we would see a very similar trend form.

Most folks do want to be acknowledged. Most people like being considered attractive. Alot of people I know including myself do like feeling that they have at least some control over how people treat them, percieve them, and interact with them.

I want to point out that DARE has been talking about himself here (instead of on a blog) because he was hoping to get some insight from Dan and Dans loyal followers. If only to see what opinions others had. I highly doubt that he walks around talking to everyone he meets in this same manner. I imagine Dare likely asks other people about themselves ALOT, hence why he has so many clear opinions on verious aspects of other people.

DARE, a final word to you. Be honest with people. Don't get involved in other peoples relationships, that is bullshit. If you really are as self realized as you portray yourself to be you know that it is innapropriate and of poor character to do that. Prove your integrity by not engaging with people who are in relationships. And as for flirting with homophobes, be careful. I do it sometimes, when I have people around me to help in case of trouble, but it can easily become dangerous. Watch Pricilla Queen of the desert for a scene of what could happen. (love that movie :)

Oh and be careful of Jesus references or people might start saying you have a martyr complex It is not like Jesus was one of the most well known men in earths history or anything :P. Also, there are plenty of references in the bible and popular culture (equally relevant) to Jesus questioning why people idolize him and not themselves, or God for that matter. You have a point but you are definately just stirring the pot by name dropping that cat.

Dan, you are the man. And if you were not married, (good on you and your mate), I would definately want to spend some quality time exploring sexuality with you :D
158
@157: "But the fact that he actually takes the time to try to break down his ego and motivations is a good sign"

"Sociopath? What kind of a sociopath bares all his sociopathy everywhere he goes?"

All I see here is a guy who admires a fellow bullshit artist.
159
That or someone completely unable to see a lack of sincerity and empathy before him. Don't be so gullible.
160
I did not say I admire DARE. I am giving him the benefit of the doubt that what he is expressing is his true opinion and feelings. He wrote in to talk to Dan. Everyone decided he was a piece of shit. I thought I would at least back him up for the sake of fairness. His one expressed failing besides obviously being to wordy, self attentive and intellectual for most folks, is that he fucks with other peoples relationships. He has many less than attractive traits, but everyone does. Why is it that so few people are willing to give a stranger the benefit of the doubt?

I tell people when they are bothering me, or I don't hang around them. From the sounds of it DARE has no trouble finding people to hang out with, he is just blind to the reality that his attitude is a bit holier than thou to most people. In the book Stranger In A Strange Land, Robert Hienlien writes at the end about how humanity will always kill its saviours. The wisest, truest, clearest among us will be vilified and destroyed by the masses, mainly out of fear.

Now DARE, don't get it in your head that I or anyone thinks you are a saviour, but I do feel that when many people are quick to jump on and tear into a fellow human, merely for expressing themselves and showing who they feel they are. I pay attention to that person. Chances are they have something important to share that challenges the staus quo and I want to know what that might be. Look at the gay community, gay people are despised and attacked for who they are, and what they express and represent. But as the years pass, we see just how much they really do have to offer. Far more than any homophobe who spends their life hating and hurting.
161
Wow! A little blood in the water and the piranhas go wild!

Personally, I think DARE is a bit narcissistic, but not so much more than most people I've met - he at least seems to be trying to understand himself, and become aware of both the real reasons people react to him and his own motives for doing what he does.

I think he's only beginning to scratch the surface, but I think a lot of people don't even try. He should consider the criticism he has sought here, but not accepting some of it does not automatically mean he is in the wrong. And he does not at all seem to be without empathy, even though he may have a bit of a sadistic streak, what with making some people uncomfortable on purpose (at least he's aware he's doing it though, and has some remorse! How many people do it who aren't even conscious of it?)

I think he needs to find something constructive to do with his life- a purpose that will give him something to focus on besides himself. Without the need to earn a living or be responsible for someone else, most of us would become a bit narcissistic, especially if a lot of people found us attractive physically, because we'd have too much time to think about ourselves.

DARE, go find something you believe in in this world. Get a cause that will let you use your energy for something besides navel gazing and pleasure-chasing. You'll feel better. And you'll hopefully do others some good as well.
162
@160: "His one expressed failing besides obviously being to wordy, self attentive and intellectual for most folks"

Yes, but he's not self-conscious, and his "wordy intellectualism" is meaningless drivel.

If he was actually trying to be self-conscious instead of gazing longingly at himself in a handmirror, if he actually cared why people Dan and others might think he's obnoxious and juvenile, that would be one thing.

@161: "he at least seems to be trying to understand himself, and become aware of both the real reasons people react to him and his own motives for doing what he does."

I see no evidence of this. It's all "they think i'm too pretty", "i'm so charming, how could they not hate me?" and "they're jealous because i don't have to work or do anything strenuous to get where i am".

"Get a cause that will let you use your energy for something besides navel gazing and pleasure-chasing."

Why would he? He's stated over and over in the thread that this is working out well enough for him, he has no intentions of changing his ways. All he wanted to know was why all those gross gays kept wanting to suck his cock whenever he touched and flirted with them to gain the interest of "females".
163
143

Fully agree, love the post. :)
164
161

Succinct, I like your post.

"DARE, go find something you believe in in this world. Get a cause that will let you use your energy for something besides navel gazing and pleasure-chasing. You'll feel better. And you'll hopefully do others some good as well." :):):)!

"I think he's only beginning to scratch the surface, but I think a lot of people don't even try. He should consider the criticism he has sought here, but not accepting some of it does not automatically mean he is in the wrong."

"...(at least he's aware he's doing it though, and has some remorse! How many people do it who aren't even conscious of it?)"
165
@161, well, to me DARE is the archetype of someone with no self-awareness at all. Unfortunately, in my experience, once a bore, always a bore.
166
Wow, I got to this late. I had NO IDEA that DARE would up the insufferable ante so much.

"I'm charming, sensitive, charismatic, alpha male but in a non-gendered kind of way, interesting, intellectual, empathetic, sensual and of course drop dead gorgeous...it's so not fair that people are too stupid and ugly to fully apreciate me"

Oh but he's totally fine with independent minded women, just as long as they defer to his "natural leadership". The douchebaggery is strong in this one.

I'm tempted to call fake. A cursory reading of the comments shows that someone this self-absorbed and assholish would have a heard time keeping women around for 5 minutes, let alone having the legions of friends (though he paints them as more like worshippers) that this fucker says he has. Also, his comment of "I feel so sad when I see a homeless amputee because it distracts me from the important business of fucking pretty girls" reeks of trolling.

On the other hand several people say they've had the misfortune of meeting such individuals, and regular trolls have much less florid writing styles. If he's a troll, he's a skillful one. In this one case, I would rather he be a troll than this horrific personality reflect an actual human being.
167
162

I want to clarify, I chose the words, Self attentive.

self,
1. The total, essential, or particular being of a person; the individual.
2. The essential qualities distinguishing one person from another; individuality.
3. One's consciousness of one's own being or identity; the ego.
4. One's own interests, welfare, or advantage: thinking of self alone.

attentive,adj.
1. Giving care or attention; watchful: attentive to detail.
2. Marked by or offering devoted and assiduous attention to the pleasure or comfort of others.
3. Expressing affectionate interest through close observation and gallant gestures.

I chose those words to say that he pays attention to himself. He watches and asseses what he does and how he is percieved by others for those actions. He also asks himself what he is doing and why.

I did not say,

Self-concious,
1. Aware of oneself as an individual or of one's own being, actions, or thoughts.
2. Socially ill at ease.
3. Excessively conscious of one's appearance or manner.
4. Showing the effects of self-consciousness; stilted.

As that has a very different implication and speaks of a different type of opinion. What I mean to say is this, I am not assesing his personal moral worth, or attitude towards himself. I am only pointing out that he pays attention to himself, and to others.

In my opinion it is no worse to have your life saved by someone who is proud of themselves for doing it and did it more for the attention than a personal interest in saving your life. Than to be saved by someone humble who says "aw shucks, it coulda been anyone."
Either is better than not being saved at all because someone could not get past their opinions of others and decide to be of service, for whatever reason.
168
"What I mean to say is this, I am not assesing his personal moral worth, or attitude towards himself. I am only pointing out that he pays attention to himself, and to others.

In my opinion it is no worse to have your life saved by someone who is proud of themselves for doing it and did it more for the attention than a personal interest in saving your life. Than to be saved by someone humble who says "aw shucks, it coulda been anyone."
Either is better than not being saved at all because someone could not get past their opinions of others and decide to be of service, for whatever reason."

Are you a sockpuppet for DARE?

What you just posted makes absolutely no sense and goes along perfectly with his self-aggrandizing/messiah complex. Let alone the continuing the streak of odd psychobabble.

He. Is. Not. Saving. Lives.

He is being homophobic, misogynistic/controlling, destroying relationships, and seems to be a total shit of an individual from all he posts.

Seeing as he's not out to change the world, the best we can hope for is him trying to minimize the trainwreck he is today.
169
when will Slapp be available for PALM? hehe no pun intended.
170
#168

"Seeing as he's not out to change the world, the best we can hope for is him trying to minimize the trainwreck he is today."

How do you know I am not trying to change the world? I regularly help people in need. I break up fights. I am polite. I have worked as a nanny and caregiver for the elderly. Personally I view myself as a caring and nurturing person.

Sure I have issues. Shit, my issues have issues. But when it comes down to it, I hate suffering. Even when I do not witness it, I can't get it out of my mind that the world is rife with suffering, sorry, anguish and tragedy.

We have it pretty kush in the U.S., but even here, consumerism has eaten away at us.

I digress.

Oh and for those thinking I have never had to work hard, I guarantee you I have worked more construction, furniture moving, landscaping, commercial fishing, and dug more ditches than most posting on here. I know what hard work is. And I have made sacrifices to be able to walk away from it after it starts to wear me down. Sure I've had a lot of down time to 'over think' shit and incessantly philosophize. But again, I am no stranger to hard work. I have woken up many mornings at the crack of dawn with creaking joints to go and labor for minimum wage.

171
Oh and I am in my 30's.
172
170 "But when it comes down to it, I hate suffering. Even when I do not witness it, I can't get it out of my mind that the world is rife with suffering, sorry, anguish and tragedy."

yeah, but no matter how many buddhism for dummies books you skim, when it comes down to actually interacting with people, you're only looking out for #1

"Sure I've had a lot of down time to 'over think' shit and incessantly philosophize. But again, I am no stranger to hard work. I have woken up many mornings at the crack of dawn with creaking joints to go and labor for minimum wage."

do you want a medal? you said you're well off enough that you don't neet to work, so don't play middle-class hardworker now, the vast majority of people aren't set with family and trust funds to the point where that's possible

"Oh and I am in my 30's."

jesus christ, you are far too old to be this dumb
173
168

We are all a train wreck in some way or another. And I am noones sock puppet thank you. I hear a human being in his words and I can appreciate the struggle to actually find yourself. Some of it is complete shit and leaves you feeling or looking like hell. That is life.
What I wrote was perfectly comprehensible for someone with a mind to listen and be open. Which you clearly are not. Do you think talking down about people encourages them to improve? Or could it be possible that acknowledging someone for who they are trying or even claiming to be trying to be might be slightly more effective?
174
173

his initial post asked questions, but his followups since show that he doesn't want to change anything about his behavior

if anything, his elaborations made people even more disgusted with him.
176
@167

"I am only pointing out that he pays attention to himself, and to others."

Certainly not to others' perception of him. He is like the classical bore with no awareness of how others see him. In fact, he is completely blind to it. Here is another interesting definition:

Psychopathy (/saɪˈkɒpəθi/): a mental disorder characterized primarily by a lack of empathy and remorse, shallow emotions, egocentricity, and deceptiveness.
177
undead ayn rand,

DARE isn't keeping score against you, but he has you keeping score against him. If he's the terrible person you say he is, how are you not choosing to be his thanksgiving dinner?
178
@130

It's important to communicate with people on their own level. Also important: calling 'em as you see 'em.

And only elderly people use expressions like "sissy queer". It's like if you had've refered to "Siam" or "phrenology".

You could take it as an insult, or you could take it as me generously suggesting a mitigating contribution to why you'd be such a bigot?
179
177

what does that even mean?
180
@109: Did you look at ANEMD's original letter of the day? She got a ton of responses there and she also posted on that thread.

Because young women who want guys to share them with other women just gets to be such a tiresome subject in our culture, right? ;-)

Whereas DARE replied in this thread, which is why everyone focused on him.

I think Mr. Savage's decision to put DARE first -- and to rag on him in such an amusingly nasty manner -- helped to precipitate the avalanche of hatred shown for DARE here. But I also think DARE's use as a hate-object by the commenters here tells us much more about them than it does about him. (Of special note, IMHO at least, is DARE's decision to provoke homophobic men, and the abuse DARE has taken here for it. Who would have thought such behavior would receive such censure from DAN SAVAGE's audience, eh?)
182
180 "Of special note, IMHO at least, is DARE's decision to provoke homophobic men, and the abuse DARE has taken here for it."

it's because he only provoked them for the purpose of proving his worth to his submissive heterosexual conquests

he has very little respect for gay men, and he's shown it through his descriptions of them
183
Dan and DARE, thanks for educating the masses about what a narcissist is. Go and read DARE/outofwater's words and see for yourself-narcissists think they're the greatest people in the world, and will continue to do so until their dying day-and those who don't see that are the ones with the problem. Meanwhile they'll leave behind wreckage-of betrayed friends and co-workers, failed relationships and marriages, and fucked up children.

"And I have had a lot of time to think in my life, a blessing. Never had to hold down a full time job."

"Oh and for those thinking I have never had to work hard, I guarantee you I have worked more construction, furniture moving, landscaping, commercial fishing, and dug more ditches than most posting on here. I know what hard work is." Classic con man. Hoping you missed one or the other. But you see he believes it himself; that's how he gets others to believe it.

"I have slept with married women because I can, but also because these women were not happy at home. I regret doing it, but I have learned a lot about relationships. Women open up to me. I guess what I have learned makes me sad, because I have concluded that for the most part people are miserable in the world. Fear and desperation trump happiness. We live under strict hierarchies, power structures, and domination. Not a fertile foundation for self actualized, confident and complete human beings methinks."

Notice how he takes back every statement about himself that he makes with a following "but" statement. Throw in the cheapest pop-psychobabble words and let the world know how "sensitive" you are. Plenty of people fall for that.

"How do you know I am not trying to change the world? I regularly help people in need. I break up fights. I am polite. I have worked as a nanny and caregiver for the elderly. Personally I view myself as a caring and nurturing person. " Give him enough rope...

Gay or straight? I think neither. He's madly in love/lusts for the image in the mirror.

184
@180: Agree completely. And I'm totally in favor of random flirting, being playful, fucking with social norms to consciously make people uncomfortable at times, and making fun of homophobes. I really do not understand where all the hate is coming from.

As far as ANEMD, a lot of us said everything we wanted to say back on that thread, and ANEMD's responses helped defuse any conflict, whereas DARE's seem to do the opposite for reasons I don't really understand. But as you say, it tells us more about DARE's attackers.
185
I think 181 may have just said the most meaningful thing in this entire conversation.
186
@Blackrose

You don't understand where the hate is coming from?

Hm.

Look, this is how I see it... people all have different talents in life. We're good at some things, bad at others. Some of us (Dan included, it would seem) are good at reading people. Seeing beneath what they say and cut through to who they are. Personally, I consider myself to be blessed in this realm. Some people are good at getting people to like them. Maybe they're charismatic, or maybe they're simply easygoing and friendly. This is what I call the difference between being "good with people" and "good at people".

Good at people meaning good at understanding how they tick. (I often say I'm "good at people, but not good with them")

I read DARE/fish's post and I saw an incredibly self-absorbed, trustafarian with an overinflated ego. And all of his comments (you did read them, right?) are about how everyone loves him - but the people who don't love him are just jealous of his physical beauty. Which is a handy one-two punch of elevating himself as being above superficiality (by implying he isn't concerned with physical beauty) and pointing out his superficial attractiveness.

P.S. DARE, re: your physical beauty? We haven't seen a picture so we have no way of knowing if that's even true. Dude could be hideous.

He goes on about how suffering makes him upset. Does that not seem insane to anyone but me? If someone needs to expressly point out that they have empathy, doesn't that seem suspicious to anyone but me? I mean, if I wrote a post saying "I close my eyes. That's another interesting thing about me... During the day I close them very quickly so it doesn't disturb my vision, and then at night time I lie in bed for a long time with my eyes closed the whole time!"

Dude. We all blink and sleep. The fact that you went in detail to describe something that is basic humanity gives a little wee bit of weight to all these "psychopath" suggestions that I earlier thought were silly.

Back to Blackrose though - I've read many of your posts and you don't seem narcissistic at all. You actually seem like quite a considerate person and though I can imagine you riling up people you perceive as "too conventional" (me, perhaps? :P) I think you do it out of a genuine hope that it will widen their perspective of shake them out of their bigotry as the case may be. Sure, there's probably an angry/mean part too (you should have seen how I reacted to some obnoxious suburban guy who came into my city and called my friend a "faggot") but that's not the entirety of your motivation.

Or at least that's not the impression I get from you. So though you may superficially share certain qualities with DARE there's a reason these people attack him and not you - it's not his actions they're attacking, it's his motivation.

I guess what I'm trying to say is... just because you don't see it yourself doesn't mean it's not there? Just because you can't hear that noise that makes your dog go nuts doesn't mean there wasn't a sound at all.

Erm... tl;dr.
187
184 Agreed with 186 that you don't *sound* like a narcissist or a sociopath, so why are you so clueless?

"making fun of homophobes. I really do not understand where all the hate is coming from."

because he is, at the same time a homophobe. sure he'll flirt with a guy, but only if it improves his chances of finding a heterosexual sex partner

does he respect gays? fuck no. does he like it when they flirt back? fuck no. his disgusting opinions on the poor boys who think he's sincerely flirting with them is clearly stated

i don't understand what's so curious about the response to DARE, but you should really read things more before responding

if even DAN SAVAGE HIMSELF thinks the guy is being a hurtful dick, maybe it's worth trying to understand?
188
For some weird reason,

I was reminded by @186's post about something that happened at a party a few years back. I was talking with a guy about his new business, and because he was the first person I'd met who had gone strictly online, the conversation was really fascinating. I had seen some guy walking past looking at us a number of times, and then he walked up to us later on and announced that "you guys must be gay". To my acquaintances credit, he grabbed me into a hug and proclaimed "well of course we are". Of course I was mutly standing there on the verge of falling on the floor laughing, so I wasn't much help (two 40 something dad types, me dressed in my usual nerdo-shlub outfit, surrounded by pastel dressed yacht club types at the party. Whispering excitedly in each others ears, definitely gay,
right?). All I could think of was the guy had never left high school, and that he really was just jealous he couldn't take part in our fun.

And that's what strikes me about DARE, he is the smarmy guy at the party who "knows" everyone is secretly dying to be able to take part in his circle of conversation. And, usually, he's right.

Peace.
189
@179 I was wondering the same thing.
190
@DARE... Is that you? If so, how bout sending that overdue child support check? We need it!
...your ex wife (the tomboy with armpit hair)
191
I have had much leisure time, but I have also worked very hard. Like I said, I make sacrifices to be able to LEAVE a job after I get sick of it.

I work cyclically. I work hard for months then quit and live in my car, or in the past on the streets as well.

Interesting how so many people pass judgement on me and call me a 'narcissist' (as if there is some categorical, universal definition. Remember, the only thing physicists can agree on is that nothing is capable of faster than light travel. Otherwise, truth pours forth as a creation of our minds).

Interesting because these people never talk about themselves. They perhaps spend all their time judging other people but never think about themselves. Maybe this is because they hate themselves, and want to be someone else.

I see talking about oneself as very honest. We are all selfishly motivated. Some people hide it.

192
@190: Hah!

Channeling DARE-

"Pay back child support? Sartre once said 'Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives', I relate to that.

You know who was also a privileged guy who knew very little outside his parents' house but gave up his wife and child in the search to understand 'suffering'? Buddha. Everyone was jealous of Buddha and was trying to get to know him better, and they now stare at graven images of him in adoration, yet he must have suffered the most of all humankind..."
193
@191: "Interesting how so many people pass judgement on me and call me a 'narcissist' (as if there is some categorical, universal definition."

Someone who is only concerned with his own suffering and is blind to the suffering of others is a fair definition to be applied.

"Remember, the only thing physicists can agree on is that nothing is capable of faster than light travel. Otherwise, truth pours forth as a creation of our minds)."

Do you ever expect this rubbish to be convincing? A mealymouthed sort of "what can we ever KNOW, mannnn?". Drop the stoner metaphysics, it's tiring. If you believe in absolute moral relativism, why are you bothering to write into a self-help forum about how messed up and reptile-brained you are?

"They perhaps spend all their time judging other people but never think about themselves. Maybe this is because they hate themselves, and want to be someone else."

I know when I fuck up and deal with it on my own terms. I also care when I make someone hurt, whereas you dwell on the "nature of suffering" but can't apply it to the people who surround your circle of high-school drama. I seriously thought you were right out of school with this "i'm a hippie, why is everybody so mad all the time?" manchildery. And no, not everyone wants to be an "independently wealthy" layabout who moves from one sexual conquest to the other but has no real friends (Everyone is a jealous enemy, right?) or drive in life.

You're in your thirties, couchsurf all you want but at least stop being a shitstorm of drama whenever you decide to settle down.
194
@191: "Like I said, I make sacrifices to be able to LEAVE a job after I get sick of it.

I work cyclically. I work hard for months then quit and live in my car, or in the past on the streets as well."

Yeah, but that's a luxury, don't pretend that your slumming it is any hardship. You've always got somewhere to go to and someone to finance your lifetime goal of "finding yourself".
195
@191, not talking about yourself ≠ lack of self scrutiny. It often just reflects the good judgment. People who are truly interesting are those who can talk about things other than themselves. We can't judge someone's soul by what they don't say, because we don't know all the things inside their head (but oh, boy, can we ever judge them by what they do say).
196
"Just because you can't hear that noise that makes your dog go nuts doesn't mean there wasn't a sound at all."

Sometimes the dog goes nuts because dogs are pack animals, and "going nuts" is how it lets the mailman walking away know it owns his ass.
197
#194

"Yeah, but that's a luxury, don't pretend that your slumming it is any hardship. You've always got somewhere to go to and someone to finance your lifetime goal of "finding yourself."

You don't know me. You don't know what I have experienced. The pain I have experienced. I have blessings, but I have experienced extreme pain and hardship. Yes I have had leisure, but I have also labored very hard. My life has not been easy and I have had to fight for much of what I have accomplished.
198
#193

"Someone who is only concerned with his own suffering and is blind to the suffering of others is a fair definition to be applied."

Oh yes that is ALL I am concerned with.

I appreciate your deduction kind sir. So, so wise of you. You understand more about me than I do.

"Drop the stoner metaphysics, it's tiring. If you believe in absolute moral relativism, why are you bothering to write into a self-help forum about how messed up and reptile-brained you are? "

You don't get laid very often, do you? I think it's pretty easy to tell which posters lack self esteem here.

199
#195

"We can't judge someone's soul by what they don't say, because we don't know all the things inside their head (but oh, boy, can we ever judge them by what they do say)."

Actually I believe we can tell a lot about people, and even their 'souls' (whatever that 'is'), by how they move, how they carry themselves. Most communication tends to portray physically, rather than verbally.
200
@197: The ability to feel pain and the ponderance of the nature of emotional "pain" does not equate to the desire to have any concern for others.

Of course I don't know you personally, but from your words posted here, you come off as as an entitled prick, and most people seem to agree.

Perhaps you should be more concerned about how you come off to others?

You know, the letter you sent? You do remember that, right? The one you sent and never addressed a single aspect of Dan's reply regarding?

You may very well be a tiny, flaccid phallus in a vat and everyone was created to be your plaything, but apparently not all of these false constructs think you're interesting or exciting. Plenty of them think you're a insufferable pseudointellectual.
201
You guys, you are all wrong in your diagnoses. DARE/outofwater is neither a sociopath, nor a narcissist, nor gay, nor bi.

He's a theater major.

Cased closed.
202
186 has some great insight regarding "good at people" vs. "good with people". DARE is obviously the latter (at least until other people wake up and smell the coffee). I consider myself the former.

As one of those "good at" but not "good with" folks, DARE is the kind of person that I only meet when some naive friend of mine invites one into my home. I immediately peg them by their plaintive instant "friendships" with me, their abrupt invites to Burning Man or Vegas, and worse, their constant look at meeeee posturing.

So what do I do? I force a smile, politely nod my head as they speak, chuckle at their attempts at humor, act as a proper host, and mentally distance myself from getting ever, ever close to them. I'm sure they interpret my patience and reservation as genuine interest and fascination... not because it is, but because they'd never consider otherwise. Thinking is not their strong suit, despite their psuedo-intellectual blathering.

Case in point, 186 again. mydriasis talks about themsevles, and how they see the world. It's not particularly flattering to describe yourself as bad with people. But it's honest. It takes real confidence.

Yet not more than 5 posts later, here's DARE:

"Interesting because these people never talk about themselves. They perhaps spend all their time judging other people but never think about themselves. Maybe this is because they hate themselves, and want to be someone else."

DARE, you're a troll or an idiot. Either way you're a douche. I doubt that knowing people who put up with your shit might not actually think you're so very amazing (but are too polite or disengaged to make an effort to tell you) will change your opinions at all. You don't want to change, you want the attention it's getting you.

Happy to oblige.
203
196

your analogy is weird and inapplicable to this situation. we're not trying to exert dominance over DARE, we see his behaviors and mindset as creepy

201

*bows to SI*

i can say no more
204
@ 201 : You forgot that he's also a major asshole. This thread is laughably great. Give it about two years and he'll be in a nuthouse somewhere being diagnosed for schizo-affective disorder. He'll get his one day, and he'll only have himself to blame if he's ever able to wake TF up and begin to take stock about how fucked up he really is. Screaming queen dickwad.
205
"I immediately peg them by their plaintive instant "friendships" with me, their abrupt invites to Burning Man or Vegas, and worse, their constant look at meeeee posturing."

nice, reminds me of this other "hippie" staple

en.wikipedia . org/wiki/Love_bombing
206
204

eh, I don't quite know. it's plausible that he's closeted, but sometimes an asshole, bullying jockish guy with "sensitive" affectations is just an asshole bullying jock who wears a hippie suit, not a sports jersey

i mean, plenty of the neocons pretended to be hippies in the 60s-70s, but their rotten souls were all about the "free love" and not the goodwill of mankind

hell, plenty of republicans of college age pretended to like Obama to get liberal women in bed and aped what they thought Dems believed as far as was necessary. College Republicans just aren't sexy (unless you're a log cabiner, I guess)

it's like this layabout acting like what he believes a Sensitive New Age Guy is* while continuing to act like a regressive misogynist/homophobe.

*not that anyone should ACUALLY be a SNAG, mind you, the sincere ones are dull as hell.