For anyone worried about a "Santorum Lawsuit" the wordpress site referenced by poster #1 has the strong stench of being a scam:
1. This site seems to have been started yesterday (There's only one post Jan. 3rd 2012)
2. There's no citation or link to a genuine news source.
3. It requests donation inquiries be made to a private email--doesn't say what "good causes" the donations will go to.
4. http://spreadingsantorum.com is the Santorum website we all know and love.

For anyone worried about a "Santorum Lawsuit" the wordpress site referenced by poster #1 has the strong stench of being a scam:
1. This site seems to have been started yesterday (There's only one post Jan. 3rd 2012)
2. There's no citation or link to a genuine news source.
3. It requests donation inquiries be made to a private email--doesn't say what "good causes" the donations will go to.
4. http://spreadingsantorum.com is the Santorum website we all know and love.

32 - "Maybe the guy who didn't get caught after four years, is married to a withholding witch who's sexual inactivity was very emasculating for him emotionally. You don't know. And by being a preachy wannabe hyper ethical asshole you sound like a right winger, like Sphinctorum! Check yo self fool!"

You then have to ask yourself: 'what was he doing that provoked her to behave in such a way?' I think you more supported the case for him being a CPOS who brags about cheating on his wife. You also sound bitter.

@101 vennominion,

I do remember, and I think that in this case where the mother isn't cheating upon her husband, if the husband is the one to do the explaining that he understands what is going on and isn't hurt by it, it may make a huge difference. I think the child needs to be reassured first and foremost that the child is and shall remain safe, and that the loving environment of their family isn't going to change because of the child's discovery.

Maybe, just maybe this can be stretched into a bigger happy family thing? I don't know how poly families do it.

Peace.

Thanks, vennominon. I was surprised to see the way the letter read, but I understand the need to cut extraneous (for the purpose of Dan's column) rambling details.... I rarely comment here but read regularly, and it is interesting (and a bit disconcerting) to be on the other side of things.

@67 mydriasis: I hadn't thought of that! You're right.
@105 & @106: Thanks for the update.

Mr Married - While I grant that, in this case, it's not cheating on the husband, I don't think that really makes that much of a difference. I don't suppose your recommendation could hurt; I just think it's better if the children don't have cause to feel betrayed directly (because of their own falsified relationships with a third).

@32:

The letter-writer characterizes his marriage during those four years as "wonderful-yet-sexless." It doesn't sound to me like he thought he was married to "a withholding witch."

To a large extent, I agree with the posters criticizing the LW -- he should have sought his wife's consent before he made the unilateral decision to open up their marriage. On the other hand, I give him a lot of credit for being mature enough to realize that his wife's diminished libido wasn't something she deliberately chose to punish or control him.

(I also agree with @111 that there's no reason to assume that the LW was somehow responsible for his wife's sex drive getting stuck in park. Sometimes these things just happen, y'know?)

@my:

Y hello thar, fellow evo-psych skeptic! Somehow I had it in my head that you were an ardent evo-psych defender; I don't know how I arrived at that misconception, but I'm glad to have it corrected.

I post this after having read the second letter. Many will say it reflects an attitude from another time and is no longer relevant, but I believe that it remains a cautionary tale. Personally I consider this to be a horrible tragedy and find it extremely sad and depressing. I may be wrong, but I believe that less than more men have cuckold fetishes and very few people enjoy being humiliated, publicly or privately . I believe for many (most) people there is truly no expiration date on the consequences of infidelity and/or keeping secrets. Some of you may know of this. Take from it whatever you will.

Hence the case of the 99 year old man in Italy who is divorcing his 96 year old wife of 77 years after just finding letters to her lover. Granted her affair and betrayal ??? took place 60 years ago resulting in what may seem to some people as an over reaction by her husband. Yes it is ancient history to the wife, but not to her husband. I don't know if her affair was justified, a stupid mistake, or whatever; but this has to be tearing her family apart. It would be bad enough if this had remained a private matter, but I can't begin to imagine the humiliation being felt, by all parties, since it is now public grist for the ghouls in the media.

On a personal level, it would not be so much the affair from 60 years ago that would be so devastating, but finding out that I had been lied to and deceived for over 60 years. Decades of trust and credibility gone in an instant. Haunted by questions about what was and is true.
Having my wife keep those letters for so long would leave me feeling as if she cherished and valued them and her memories more than our family, marriage, or me.

The object leason I take from this is no good can ever come from keeping evidence of an affair. It has the potential of biting you in the ass for as long as it exists. It would have been better for everyone if the wife had destroyed the letters along time ago and taken the secret with her to the grave.

P.S. In no way am I being judgmental. As I said earlier, I consider this to be a horrible tragedy. I don't believe that this is typical, just an example of disasterous the consequences of infidelity and/or secret can be. So don't jump down my throat for posting this or sharing some of my personal feelings.

Oh yawn, who gives a fuck? C'mon Dan, enough already with monogamy issues and let's get back to spanking and furries and all the fun stuff.

@112 vennominion,

Coming from a strictly monogamous, this is out of my experience, but I do come from a large family, soooo: Depending upon the age of the child, there are different things to consider. As they get older, the most important thing would be honesty in an age appropriate degree. The betrayal of the child rides heavily upon the size of the secret and it's consequences. If the parents kept going as things were, or went to strictly monogamous mode, and nothing changed but the child's awareness of adult behavior, I would think things would feel safe.

If the home is filled with that pungent aroma of sanctimonious bullshit, however, then things would most likely be much worse. (I would hope that a poly home would be a tolerant one.) When I figured out about my father's infidelity/ies, the single biggest part of the personal betrayal lay in the outrage of being held to a standard that he himself hadn't. A huge amount of my psyche and efforts to exceed during my teens was tied into chasing my parents acceptance (As it turned out, it was an effective compensation against my (undiagnosed) learning disability, so some good came from it.). Honesty wouldn't have done much in this case, but it wasn't a case of the family coming together to minimize the damage, either. Another big piece of the feeling of betrayal came from being abandoned to deal with my own fate; in that the fault is spread out over the family as a whole.

Sorry to babble, I am getting pretty sleepy.

Peace.

Clarification

Some of you may know of this. (Should read) Some of you may know of the following

This column made me so happy I nearly shit myself. You go, people doing what makes you happy despite our ass-tarded society. You go.

That's all good and well, and more power to you if you're happy, but there are many of us, gay and straight, who value our monogamy. We find comfort in having a stable relationship without bringing someone else's motivations, issues and expectations into the equation. Being monogamous doesn't have to be a struggle or a sacrifice; it's just a way of life. It's an understanding that in fact, there may be someone "better" in some alternate universe, but we prefer to live in the here and now and love one person unconditionally and uncomprimisingly.

@113: I'm presuming that the LW knew, from years of living with his wife, or perhaps from sounding her out formally or informally, that there was no chance of her agreeing to open the marriage. Opening the relationship by agreement is so obviously a better option than cheating, if it's an option at all, that I doubt it was.

@97: Of course you will meet new people at work, events, vacations, etc. But if your relationship commitment is important you can look but not touch.

My point is that if you go beyond that and form a relationship with another, even if only sexual, you have a better chance of that morphing into feelings beyond the sex which then make you see that person as a "better option" instead of your "#1 priority".

I've seen multiple gay couples who invite in a 3rd and in a short time one of the guys in the relationship leaves and sets up shop with the 3rd.

@nocutename, I didn't get an impression of self-pity from you. I got the impression that you were being realistic and honest about an unpleasant situation, and, far from wallowing in sadness about it, you were determined to keep searching. Even when you know that you may not find what you want, you'll keep looking. I admire that, and really hope your efforts are rewarded. Life is too mysterious for anyone to be certain that there is some perfect soul-mate out there for every single person, but I just wanted to express my wishes for lucky love for you.

And for all of the rest of you, too. Sometimes it can be easy to get disheartened by all that is unjust and malevolent in the world, but the persistent kindness, compassionate communication, and intelligent discussion engaged in by the regular members this community is a great remedy. I really enjoy reading your points of view and wish you all well.

(Not going anywhere, just feeling the love for you all this morning. :) Every time I read you, you brighten my day, and for that I am immensely grateful.)

@120, it tickles me pink, too. :D

@122, ?? I hope perhaps I'm misinterpreting, but your comment comes across (to me) as somewhat self-righteous in your preference for complete monogamy. I have to disagree with your implied statement that anyone engaged in anything not completely monogamous is not loving their primary partner uncompromisingly or unconditionally. I am extremely lucky to be married to my best friend in the world, who happens to be a man. We have had our ups and our downs, seen each other in extremity of emotional duress and bad behavior... ;) but we have such a bond of love and friendship that we realize that there is nothing that it wouldn't be better to face together than separately. We are stronger and better together, and we are realistic enough to know that no one is perfect and well-behaved every moment of every day. I love my husband uncompromisingly and unconditionally, and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that he feels the very same way.

However, I am bisexual. I love the cock, don't get me wrong, but there will always be part of me that wants to be buried face-first in some glorious snatch. :) My husband has known this about me since we started dating, and obviously this is an area in which he cannot satisfy me. It doesn't mean that I don't love and revel in the man that he is and every beautiful and complicated aspect of our relationship. Loving or even just lusting after someone else does not diminish the intense love and lust I feel for my husband.

I think our human hearts are infinitely big, if we let them be, and that every new bit of affection felt swells it a little more. Just as having our daughter did not lessen the love I feel for my husband, but taught me new depths of love for both of them... just as someday having another baby will not make me love my daughter less... Finding some fantastic woman with whom I can share my husband and myself and our lives would not decrease the fullness of joy and completeness of love I feel in my relationship with my husband.

Maybe someday we'll meet a fantastic woman who knocks our collective socks off, and we'll live happily ever after, driving each other crazy and keeping each other sane. Realistically, we may never find someone that fits us both as well as we fit each other, and that's perfectly okay with us. We feel very lucky and blessed to have what we have, and maybe it's selfish of us to wish for more, but I think it is a very human trait to want more of every good thing. Please don't look at the occasional dalliances and sometimes polyamory of people like me and decide that it demonstrates a limit to our love and regard for our primary partner. In my heart, in my life, it demonstrates the limitlessness of my ability to love and lust.

None of this is meant to convey any sort of disdain for people for whom complete monogamy is the highest ideal and goal. That's beautiful and wonderful, too. It's just that, in the same way that people come in all shapes and sizes and pigment combinations, there is an endless variety of sexual appetites and romantic goals. Just because mine is different from yours doesn't make it less pure and sacred and deep. It just makes it different. :)

@52 - I get your drift, but I think there is a spectrum here - I don't think the option is binary: full-on romantic love or disposable sex-toy. It seems to me that all partners can be real people treated with respect and consideration and as ends-unto-themselves, without there being a qualitative or quantitative 'equality' in all relationships. Are you saying women are incapable of being sexual with someone without having the same feelings for that person as they do for their primary partner? Some lesbians I know (who occasionally dabble in the penis) would disagree.

MarleyBarley,
Thanks for your generous response to me back at #125. And @127: Bravo! Beautifully, compassionately written. It reminds me of something Sugar on the Rumpus would write.
Thanks for your contributions to the discussion; I really appreciate them.

@98: Hi again. Your comment about my comment (@89) was interesting because I think we're KIND OF talking about 2 different things (this kind of goes off-topic so most people reading this might not be interested). I was speaking more of the pain experienced during the split as opposed to who winds up happier eventually. My husband and I are going through counseling (both individually and with a couples therapist)to try to save our marriage. The damage came about as a result of non-monogomy and of course there's much more to it than that and I won't (nor would I have the space to) bore you with the details. I think this issue (who suffers more) perhaps has little to do, per se,with whether a monogamish lifestyle is valid or not or whatever and more to do with the difference between how men and women experience things emotionally. I don't think my husband has felt anything NEAR the pain that I have DURING this process, but if we do split I can envision that eventually I will be more at peace and he will have more regrets. I think, in general, that women are more reflective and examine and even wallow in their pain, while men are more inclined to protect themselves by avoiding it. Then later, when the dust clears, men may come to see and understand things about their true feelings when it's too late. This is, of course, a big generalization, but anecdotally (i.e. discussions with friends who have split)it is often the case.

@136

spoken like someone who's never had sex outdoors - doggy style is really the way to go.

@138

If I may quote Mr. Kweli:

the clan of the cavebear
used to use the club to hit and drag her by the hair
still use the club to get her a martini or a beer
try to get her home and put the smell of sex in the air

I'm all for soap but we are too different from those "apemen"

@134(nocutename), in case you didn't see my message in the other thread, I just wanted to join my wishes to those of others here (among wish MarleyBarley gets a cum laude) who wish you the best of lucks on the relationship department. Inasmuch as reading comment thread posts can shed light on another person's soul, yours is A-OK, and I would really love it if someday you'd write us all a post telling us that you found a wonderful relationship, a five-course meal that doesn't leave you to depend on the remains of the day (yes, I like Kazuo Ishiguro).

Here, a rose as a good luck charm: @--`---

"For the First Five"... what if the reason her libido suddenly returned is that she knows about the affair? He's just a garden-variety CPOS. No mystery here.

Mr Married - I don't disagree; I just wrote a long post and deleted too much of it. As an example of what I meant by direct betrayal, I didn't feel directly betrayed by my father's infidelities, although that was a weird case, as he made me an accessory. But I played doubles and mixed doubles with several family friends who were my parents' contemporaries. Had either of my parents had an affair with any of my doubles partners, I'd have taken that as a huge betrayal by the doubles partner, and that would have bothered me a lot more than either of my parents.

Married for 30 + years. My brother calls me a few years ago and wishes me "Happy birthday" followed by..."Well, did you get lucky?".
I paused about whether to tell the truth, and he answered for me:.."I know. I don't either. The old standby - sure things on anniversaries and birthdays are gone for me too."
The plain fact is that most men can ill afford to start their lives over with half of what they have. When it gets too lonely there is always Mr Craigs' for a one time fix.
SB

@140

Never had to - I'm big into cleanliness and wouldn't be down with that myself.

@143, I wished life were that simple!... (cue to longish discussion on the morality of lies, plus how sex is not everything and how this plays into a calculation of divorcing-or-not-divorcing where many other factors play a role).

Good Women/Wives who put up with "monogamish" relationships (translation: lifetime get-out-of-jail-free card for cheating) still haven't figured out that they in and of themselves are good enough to DESERVE exclusive affection -- or who are continuing to behave so badly themselves that they truly do NOT deserve a faithful partner.

@127: You will be at peace when you are finally open to relating to a potential romantic partner who will not sell you out to "the next great fuck."

A same-sex attraction can be all kinds of fun in fantasy, but if you follow through on it in reality -- not just once, to see what it's like, but as a stable preference -- it WILL wreck your chances for a solid, monogamous MARRIAGE (one man, one woman).

IMO you would best be served by making up your mind and sticking to it. Until you do, your male partners will ALWAYS fear "a woman instead," and your opposite-sex partners will always fear "just another cock when she'd probably rather do a cunt."

NO potential romontic partner wants to think that he or she is with you just on the whim of a moment, which may at any further moment totally reverse. (How does a man displaced by a woman, or vice versa, even get a CHANCE to fight back for the relationship he or she has built a future on?!)

If you're utterly convinced that to stay sexually entertained you've just gotta be "gay" despite the CRUSHING downsides (that's a whole other post!), then for goodness sake, just do it! Don't go ensnaring straights into your lifestyle, it's NOT's FAIR!!! OTOH, if you're het, just do it _sans_ PC apology! Do NOT take the Woody Allen option (by which posing as bisexual just gives you twice the choices on Date Night). That doesn't ring true to anyone, of ANY preference, who wants a serious relationship, not just a quick fuck on Date Night. PEOPLE WILL BE HURT.

Just quit that. Be a freakin' adult and JUST QUIT THAT. There are other people in this world besides you, and it is NOT your job to gratuitously make their lives miserable. Alternatively, go live as a hermit on some isolated mountain-top where your selfishness cannot continue to strew harm wherever you go.

We have been together for 36 years, and have never been monogamous. We always were honest about whatever exploits we didn't share in the flesh. And when people ask "what's your secret of your long relationship" I always answer with the truth: NON-MONOGAMY!

I should have added my story a while ago, but for some reason waited to add to the pile. I got married at 19 and have been for 12 years now. We are one of those couples that get comments to this day such as 'oh, look at the newlyweds' or 'I'm jealous of how close you are'. In short, our relationship is beautiful because we work at being communicative and true to ourselves.
We recently opened our marriage in the last year. Prior to officially 'opening', we talked for months at length about our expectations, needs, wants, fears, and confusion. We worked individually and as a couple in counseling, got really, really tired of talking about feelings (really tired!), but finally came to the conclusion together that this is what we both wanted and needed.
We were sitting at the kitchen table and the decision was made with absolute honesty - it felt completely right and made sense.
I wouldn't say it's all been fun - we've both dealt with rejection, jealousy, and fear but we continue to go back to the table where we made the decision and say 'I can't imagine it any other way'. My libido reappeared again after having been gone for many, many years, and he's more open about all of his feelings. Some would say this seems backward and for a loving, committed couple to do this.
My only reply to that is every relationship is unique, and as long as there is mutual respect, love and kindness, whatever exists between the individuals in that relationship is solely theirs. I truly hope for the day that I can without fear introduce my husband, my girlfriend and my boyfriend to other friends, and my best friend, lover and husband (all the same person) can do the same.
In response to #150 regarding the 'exclusive affection', I look at it like this - the love my husband has for me is unique to any love he'll ever have for anyone, he may love others but he won't love anyone HOW he loves me. Because every person is different, how can a person love two people in the exact same way?
He loves me for things that he maybe won't find in others, and he will find things to love in others that I maybe don't possess. But that affection will differ. So, yes, I DO deserve and have the exclusive affection/love that he has for me - it can't be replicated by anyone else. I cherish his love for me, it's the greatest gift I've gotten in life for being me.

@150
I am a woman. I do not need to bow into some gender role that you want to put me into. I'll be single and celibate all my life if I want. I'll be a slut if I want. I'll be a single mother from a sperm donation if I want. I'll be in a lifetime monogamous relationship if I want, and I'll be a full on open marriage poly swinger if I want. Or I'll be anywhere in between.
Being a woman/wife does not change my right to be what I am.
None of those choices I make will make any difference on whether I DESERVE to be loved.
EVERYONE DESERVES TO BE LOVED!
My actions or the actions of my significant other will never change that fact.

@154

Because I'm so vanilla? Is that the joke?
Only did it once. Well... twice but I don't count that time.

@157
Oh sugar, take a xanax.
Ever see Chris Rock's comments on women who say they have a right to be single mothers? Gold.

Alright feminists, have at me.

Here's a potentially useful meme: terms of fidelity. Dan isn't talking about a free-for-all with no rules. He's saying, as a couple (or whatever), you are free to define your own rules together, to negotiate the terms of your own fidelity.

And I suspect the idea that doesn't just apply to poly people. Even the most vanilla, suburban, missionary-position God fearing hetero couple arrives with different attitudes, backgrounds and proclivities.

That negotiation might look like 'You never go to strip bars, do you dear?' 'Of course not, dear.' It might not be visible to anyone else, or even both parties. But it always happens.

@151 whaaa?

Married 7 years, with him 10 years, open relationship. Both bi, both tend to have longer term lovers and friends of a slutty persuasion than just random hookups, but have done that too.

To the outside world, we are the perfect couple. And we are, but it's even better than they could ever know.

I just want to say... I don't think I'd classify Mr. Craigslist/4 years (I'm pretty sure they're the same letter) as a CPOS. It would have been better if he'd gotten permission from his wife, but as cheaters go, he behaved pretty damned ethically. He only cheated after a not-insignificant gap in his sex life, he (apparently) tried to figure out why his wife didn't want sex *before* he resorted to other options, he treated his on-the-side ethically and reasonably, and he kept his relationship with his wife as his primary focus. He doesn't exactly get an A for ethics on this one, but it's at least a solid C.

It is just plain nice to read good things about good people,

Be it long term monogamous, short term poly, homosexual, heterosexual, or any other kind of human relationship, I love a happy beginning, middle, and continuation.

Peace.

I suppose that, if ever there were a thread in which it were appropriate for those in couples to claim perfection, this is it, but may I respectfully request that such claims be confined to this thread? It doesn't make me think of any reaction beyond an occasional LMB, which I can happily suspend for one thread, but there are others here of more delicate sensibilities.

@32 - nothing really HAS to happen for someone to lose their libido. Life happens. People change and sometimes without a drastic reason.

@ 163 -- I don't think anyone's bashing monogamy. Happy, supportive, loving, stable monogamy is good stuff. I think Dan's been at pains to say that. Glad to hear it's working for you.

@ 156 -- That's a really nice approach you have to sharing someone you love. And I'm glad you don't paper over the hurt and jealousy that opening up a relationship can cause. I feel it gets glossed over a lot in this column--or maybe I'm more insecure than most sloggers, I don't know. But what you say about loving different people differently: totally agree. That's where the loyalty and security comes from in a couple that has opened up. No one can replace you, because you're unique. And that in turn allows room for respect and affection for the third/fourth/whatever.

@ troll -- my wife and I are destroying the fabric of society. Sorry about that.

@Spikeygrrl:

I saw your posts on this thread, and they made me curious enough to look up some of your past posts, and now I'm even more curious. You're a veteran practitioner of BDSM, but you still can't wrap your head around homosexuality, bisexuality, non-monogamy, transexuality, or pretty much any other deviation from the conservative vision of "natural, traditional" heterosexual monogamy? How does that even work?

Mr. Ven, what is an LMB? You refer to it in #164.
Thanks.

@59 Could you write a book too? Your account of real love gives me hope....

I wasn't sure it ever really did happen for anyone.

Best wishes and continuing happiness for both of you.

I left out one really depressing fact. The husband found the letters shortly before Christmas.

Can someone explain more about this cuckold thing to me? I am seriously trying to understand it without being judgmental but when I read this: "he's not allowed to have sex with me without my boyfriend's permission (which he usually—though not always—gets). " I feel my head explode.

so..wait, really? is this for real or just a fantasy type of thing? i understand that men can have fantasies about other men being with their women and i accept that but is this entire "he can't have sex with me without my boyfriend's permission" the husbands idea? is that part of the fantasy? is there a safeword to retract on this? how did you both deprogram yourselves of the connection between sex and love: how does the husband walk around holding his wifes hand knowing that he cant have sex with her unless he gives her boyfriend a call? what if one day the husband *for whatever reason* feels he has had his fantasy fulfilled and wants to go back to being a couple only - is there even going back?

i apologize if i sound like I am coming from an ignorant attitude, i swear i am not trying to be judgmental. i am a fan of this monogamish concept but this cuckold story completely goes against everything i thought i knew about men! If this couple or another cuckold couple could answer my questions and enlighten me, I would appreciate it!

@171 (yesyes1234), I have a little cuckold fetish -- one I've never realized, because I've never been with a woman who wanted to have an affair while being with me -- and, as far as someone who actually fantasizes about it but never had the actual experience goes, here are a few comments.

First of all, you could probably look up blogs by people living this lifestyle and read their comments -- that might help you understand more. Jinxipie is, I think, a good, honest one, with lots of answered questions classified by topic.

Second, at least for me, there is a difference between the cuckold ('I like to see/imagine/know about my wife having sex with another man or other men') and the humiliation ('I like her to dominiate me') aspects. They do tend to go together like cheese and wine, but they are not the same: one can have one without the other. From your comment, it seems you're more surprised by the humiliation aspect than by the cuckold aspect itself.

The humiliation aspect works like all other D/s relationships. In the cases that work well: There often are safe words. There is a relationship of love and respect between wife and husband, despite the apparent imbalance between dominant and submissive. Their domination games are played as such, mutually consensual, discussed in advance, played for the pleasure they give both partners, and can be stopped and renegotiated or even dropped altogether if anyone (wife, lover, or husband) feels bad with it.

Perhaps the hardest part to understand, judging by your post, is: how can the husband like this? How can he hold his wife's hand knowing he needs the boyfriend's permission (not always the case: some cuckold relationships include this element, some don't, it's case-by-case, like everything else)? I ask you: is it any easier for you to understand why someone might enjoy being flogged, or led around in a leash, or actually put in bondage? Ultimately it's the same feeling, and yes, it can be very enjoyable, very powerfully, mind-boggingly enjoyable.

If we don't have a kink, we find it difficult to understand it at a gut level. I'm not a furry, so I find it difficult to 'get it' that some people associate sexual desire with animal costums or animal-shaped toys. Yet I realize this does exist, and that those who engage in this fetish probably enjoy it very much, too.

Ms Cute - LMB is one of my rare ventures into Franglish. Wanting something stronger than Laissez-Moi Rire, I eventually settled on Laissez-Moi Barf.

@130/131 (Unregistered but very kind Commenter) - Thank you. :) I am really into language, and one of my biggest turn-ons is someone similarly enthralled by skilled elocution (my husband and I were both creative writing majors once upon a time). We're in southern Ohio, if you're anywhere nearby, maybe we should go out for coffee and conversation sometime. ;)

@133 (Another Unregistered Flatterer!) xoxoxox. Thank you very much.

@134 (nocutename) - I haven't read much of Sugar's work, but what I have read, I've loved. I endeavor to embody the sort of compassionate wisdom she conveys, so your compliment could not have been better chosen to make me blush and swell my head. ;D Thank you!!!

Goodness. @151, did you really intend all that as reply to my post @127? .... If so, ummmm, did you even read my post? Which part implied I am anything but peaceful and happy about the status of my relationships? And, quoting you here, "Just quit that. Be a freakin' adult and JUST QUIT THAT. There are other people in this world besides you, and it is NOT your job to gratuitously make their lives miserable." ?? ...and you're saying this becaaaauuuse.... you discerned so much intimate detail about my life from my post that you know how I mistreat my husband and any and all thirds and everyone else in my life?

Lol. I'm sorry, I know it's unkind to laugh, and I really don't like to be unkind, but this is so very laughable. Seriously, did you even read my post?!?

I'm speechless, which is not something that happens very often. (Chalk it up on your trolling/provocation scoreboard - Spikeygrrl: 1, MarleyBarley: 0.)

I guess all I can say is this: For you, and for any other doubters - I love my husband, and if he turned to me this morning and said, "You know, I really think we should give up this idea of that Fantastic Woman, I think we should focus on making our relationship as fulfilling and wonderful as possible, and be satisfied with what we have," I would be fine with that. Honestly, as I mentioned @127, I do feel a little selfish wishing for an amazing woman to love in the same way I love my amazing man - especially when there are so many people (dear local friends here in Ohio, and miscellaneous internet friends here at SLOG and strewn across cyberspace) who don't even have one amazing lover-partner-bff. If I had divine powers and could choose between finding that Fantastic Lady for myself and my husband, or magically putting a wonderful lover-partner-bff into the path of one of my very deserving single friends, I would absolutely, unhesitatingly choose the partner for my friend.

If I could give one gift to everyone in the world (even you!), it would be the kind of relationship I have with my husband. We are so incredibly blessed to have the kind of love that makes us better humans and inspires poetry and song. Oh yeah, it's THAT awesome. So go ahead and feel superior to me because your desires are simpler, feel like you know what's best for me and my husband, feel like you're the real adult and I'm a sexually and romantically gluttonous child...as long as that's what suits you and makes you happy. "As long as you harm none, do what you will." Your ideas about me, my life, my desires, and my relationships don't harm me, so keep them if they make you happy. Do what you will.

I'm quite pleased with the truth of my situation, and no amount of stones cast from provocateurs such as yourself will change that. Because of the foundation of trust, honesty, and mutual beneficence upon which my marriage is built, I know that my husband will tell me if he ever has doubts about our relationship and our plans and goals. Since you are not part of our relationship or those plans and goals, your opinion of them and advice for them simply do not matter. :)

From my family to yours, best wishes for love, peace, and happiness. You might consider pulling your head out of your own anus, though, because it will certainly be easier to enjoy life when you're capable of appreciating points of view other than those offered by your colon.

Mr. Ven:
Thanks for the translation. I love it.

I applaud couples and their invited guests to the lifestyles of their choosing. Y'all are brave regardless of your level of detail-sharing. While married myself, I'm not personally opposed to nonmonogamy as a philosophy of life. I just think it is interesting that the nonmonogamy theme this week coincides with the scientific community essentially saying there's no preventing the transmission of genital herpes to ones partner - even with suppression medication. Incidence is something ridiculous now like 1:5. Plus there's no reasonable way of testing for it. This is also not to say that I got married in order to keep myself germ-free, but wow is it perk. Hope that reality goes in the eventually book.

I guess I lied, I'm totally not speechless. Thank you, @151 (Spikeygrrl), for the giggles and entertainment you have given my husband and me this morning. I read him choice bits from this thread, including the post to which I was replying @127, and then your reply to my post @151, he was every bit as amused and dumbfounded as I was. You helped me send him off to work this morning in a fantastic mood!

But yeah, not speechless. Re-reading your post with my husband, I was struck by the skepticism you seem to be expressing about bisexuality. Quoting you again - "A same-sex attraction can be all kinds of fun in fantasy, but if you follow through on it in reality -- not just once, to see what it's like, but as a stable preference -- it WILL wreck your chances for a solid, monogamous MARRIAGE (one man, one woman)."

A SLOG Commenter who sees monogamous heterosexual marriages as the only legitimate marriages? You MUST be trolling. ;) Rest assured, though my marriage is not strictly monogamous, it is wonderfully solid and not even slightly wrecked. (Re-read @127 and @175 - really, we are deliriously happy together. We're like @160 - all our friends consider us to be the perfect couple, and it is soooo much better than most of them know.)

My husband is one of those straight guys who finds the sight of two women making out or having sex EXTREEEEEMELY HOTTT. I wouldn't have married him if he weren't - why would I choose to join my life to that of a man who didn't share my appetites, preferences, and interests? I'd rather be alone than be poorly matched. My bisexuality is no hardship for him. (Well, it does make one certain thing hard for him... wink wink, nudge nudge!) I am one of those women who find the sight of my husband making out with or having sex with another woman EXTREEEEMELY HOTT. We've been there and done that and it doesn't make me even slightly jealous. My husband is an AWESOME lover, and I love to share him with other women.

My bisexuality is not much of a hardship for me, either. I have followed through on same-sex attractions multiple times (not just once to see if I liked it, thankyouverymuch). I am really and truly every bit as attracted to intelligent and beautiful women as I am attracted to intelligent and beautiful men. I am an unrepentant horndog, but I am very picky - I have never been an indiscriminate lover, I have a complex list of traits I require to be truly and deeply attracted to someone.

I'm left wondering if perhaps you think all bisexuals are just confused? That really we could choose to be attracted to just one gender, but we are so desperate or lust-filled that we refuse to narrow our field of choices...?? I'm not desperate - heredity was kind to me and I've endeavored to maintain the nice body I was given and to overcome the personality flaws that can make me difficult to deal with and get between myself and happiness. I *am* quite the lusty bitch, it's true, but I've always enjoyed that and don't see my high libido and varied appetites as any sort of problem. Neither does my husband.

In summary, just because some of us have different preferences than you possess does not make us deceived, deceptive, or deviant. Say it with me now! "It just makes us different." Variety is the spice of life. You're entitled to your preferences for blandness, but that most certainly doesn't entitle you to decide for the rest of us how much spice we can have in ours.

@164 (vennominon) - Yes, you may request that, and I will do my very best to restrict my crowing to this thread. Please feel encouraged to tell me to put a lid on it if I forget my pledge. (I'm naturally absent-minded and overly cheerful.) Hey, btw, how do you pronounce your handle? Does it rhyme with "phenomenon"? I hope so, I rather like it that way, it makes me picture you as some sort of superhero antivenin researcher. :)

@156 (allyouneedislove) - I think part of your post calls for repetition and emphasis. (Are you listening, Spikeygrrl??)
"In response to #150 regarding the 'exclusive affection', I look at it like this - the love my husband has for me is unique to any love he'll ever have for anyone, he may love others but he won't love anyone HOW he loves me. Because every person is different, how can a person love two people in the exact same way?
He loves me for things that he maybe won't find in others, and he will find things to love in others that I maybe don't possess. But that affection will differ. So, yes, I DO deserve and have the exclusive affection/love that he has for me - it can't be replicated by anyone else. I cherish his love for me, it's the greatest gift I've gotten in life for being me."
I love this. Thank you, allyouneedislove, for this lovely and succinct explanation.

Sick Rectorum. A better name for the radical conservative's favorite candidate.

I believe the only thing you brought to the attention of everyone on this thread is how sick and dysfunctional our American Society is. The rest of the world is no better. It really shows that political parties have no solutions. The solutions come from us. Sometimes showing restraint and discipline might be an attribute which grows and builds a strong society. Societies with a family based culture, steeped in a sense of social responsibility, having a moral compass, having values defined by relevance and a sense of purpose in fulfilling a common goal will succeed and grow.
Having no sense of purpose or direction in an every thing goes society leads cultures into decay, corruption and thievery. Dan Savage therefore is one who worships Gluttony, Greed and Envy. It will take a world calamity to fix this, where most of the world is wiped out and the remaining few, build a better society.

Oh hai!

Just thought I'd stop by to roll my eyes and sigh heavily at the idea that women are more likely to be hurt by monogamish relationships (so, what...men never link sex to emotion, and women always do? Really? Really?).

And while I'm here I guess I'll also roll my eyes and sigh at the idea that the person who suggests opening a relationship must be less invested in it.

Here's what a lot of people don't understand: if (for instance) I make out with someone who is not my boyfriend, this making out has nothing to do with my relationship. It's not a tug-o-war where being attracted to someone else means I'm less attracted to my partner. The attractions run on parallel tracks.

If I go to the movies with one of my friends, it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with my other friendships or that I'll become obsessed with that moviegoing experience and only go to movies with that person. Ditto making out.

Don't get me wrong, I think sometimes sexual activity with other people could be a sign of relationship problems; I'm sure some people in open relationships are seeing other people to make up for things their partner lacks. But for other people (like me), it's not that their partner isn't meeting their needs; it's that the relationship is healthy and amazing and other people are just a bonus.

Like MarleyBarley, I would give up other partners if my boy asked, no problem; the thought of being monogamous with my beautiful, wonderful boy doesn't make me sad. But the thought of being with him and occasionally getting a bit of variety on the side makes me very very HAPPY. :D

@178/127 (MarleyBarley) Amen!! I love the way you explain good poly/open/non-monogamous relationships.

Personally, I feel that having an open relationship with my husband is part of what has kept us happy and together (10 years together, 3 years married). Though neither of us has other partners (or the same other partner...) very often, the option is there and it's nice to have.

I think ultimately, it has to be left to the couple to decide what kind of relationship works for them. If it works for them and they're not hurting anyone, what's the problem? For some people, they would be too jealous of other partners, and in those cases monogamy works better. For us, and I think people who are wired similarly, we just don't really get jealous. In fact, it can be a turn-on.

My husband and I are fairly open about the type of relationship we have. Most of our friends know (though not work friends) and I told my mother about it right before we got married. She was very accepting, but asked me why we were getting married if that was the case. It was an understandable question, and one that I have been asked several times since. My answer is that marriage, to me, is a commitment between people that you will be there for each other for the rest of your lives (or I suppose the foreseeable future, given the prevalence of divorce). I love my husband, I want to have kids with him, and grow old together. But my commitment to him doesn't mean I would have a problem with another person being a part of our relationship, either temporarily or for the long-term.

@MarleyBarley, @perversecowgirl, @kase, it is indeed a pleasure to hear about your good experiences with open relations (which is what Dan is trying to get by posting letters like this LW's). It really brightens my day to see that there are people out there successfully navigating these waters. Thanks for sharing!

@jtessler, and I think one thing that should be really brought to your attention (and of many, many conservatives and liberals) is that I don't think there is anybody here who really disagrees with the spirit of what you're saying, despite your disgust at other people's lifestyle here.

Everybody on both sides agrees that (a) restraint and discipline are good attributes, (b) families are important and the basis of society, (c) social responsibility is crucial, (d) a moral compass is necessary, (e) values defined by relevance (interesting concept) are desirable, (f) a sense of purpose and common shared goals are essential.

The real point of contention is this: what values should we strive for? What relevance? What kind of family? What purpose? What goals? That's what people should be discussing, instead of the gross misrepresentations that the media insists on talking about.

Gross misrepresentations into which you yourself buy, since you accuse Dan Savage of worshipping gluttony, greed and envy, when in fact he does not.

Ah! if only people would be interested in knowing what their 'enemies' are really talking about, rather than swallowing the cheap versions they get from their favorite media outlets!...

Let me try to provide words for the not-very-smart. The people who accuse the happily non-monogamous of not being happy or of being selfish or of being unable to commit or of any of the other things seen in this comments section and elsewhere aren't getting to the real fear: If it's known that people are happy living the way they do, then that could become the expectation.

Say you have a woman who wants a monogamous marriage. Naturally she looks for a suitable partner. But every man she meets or dates points to that couple over there with an open marriage and says he'd like that too. Would she be willing? But she's not willing. She wants him to have sex only with her. If it becomes well known that open marriages work, her pool of potential mates gets smaller.

Or let's say she marries. At the first sign of a problem with their sex life, she'd like her husband to do more to please her. She'd like him to work on communication with her, to turn his attention to her. Instead, he asks to open up the relationship so he can have sex with someone else. Instead of bringing in a third (or adjunct, or I liked my term: Other) as a last resort to save the marriage, he figures he'll skip the part about being open and truthful and taking her feelings into account. He'll skip the preliminaries and jump straight to the hot young thing over there.

At least if you keep the idea that no one is happy in a non-monogamous relationship, you can be certain that everything outside of strict monogamy is cheating (and that anyone who engages in it is a CPOS). With that in mind, it's better if the happily non-monogamous (HNM?) stay in the closet.

The reason I call the people who hold these views not very smart is because they don't realize that the choice isn't between happy monogamy and cheating. The choice is between non-monogamy (happy or not) and cheating.

@124 "I've seen multiple gay couples who invite in a 3rd and in a short time one of the guys in the relationship leaves and sets up shop with the 3rd."

Plenty of relationships end. The fact that someone leaves with the 3rd doesn't mean that without the 3rd, the relationship would have lasted any longer.

There are no guarantees that opening up will strength or damage a relationship, or that staying monogamous will preserve or kill a couple's love.

@128 - we're in agreement. I think it's a spectrum; I think women are capable of having sex with no emotional strings, with some strings, with lots of strings. Just like men. (That's why I used the words "more often" and "some" in my post @52.)

But I do think one can generalize, and say that fewer women want to be used as sex-toys than men do. And more women want sex as part of a relationship than men do. And more "adjunct" women than men will end up feeling used "just for sex" if the relationship ends when the "primary couple" wants it to. So ethical couples (like me and my husband) who start out saying "our relationship is our top priority" find that we may need to adjust that, to consider that other people (especially but not always women) don't like to feel used.

196-- Got it. I understand Dan's distinction between monagamish and monogamous. I used monogamous because I was trying to articulate the thoughts of those who see them as the same thing.

@197 You're very welcome! Thanks for brightening my day just now!

I think we now have good reason to sterilize all of Iowa!!
http://spreadingsantorum.com/

http://spreadingsantorum.com/
I think this is good cause to sterilize all Iowans!!

Ms Marley - You are correct about the pronunciation, and good luck in bringing about your ideal. Or, should that elude you, at least may you enjoy the maximum of bliss available.

Longtime reader, new on the boards. Have been following the monogamish letters and discussions with interest. One question I have for all the open/monogamish SL readers out there is how do you deal with those STIs which condoms do not effectively protect against (HPV and herpes)? Condoms are very effective for HIV and the bacterial STIs but for the other viral STIs, not so much. Those of us above a certain age have likely not received HPV vaccine, and in any event the vaccine only covers four strains. I am becoming more and more open to the idea of monogamishness but am still struggling with the STI risks. Thanks in advance for your response.

Ms Cute - Thank you; it does seem to fill a hard-to-describe slot peculiarly well.

KN@203, For us, we're in our 40s and done having children. So most STIs don't seem so scary. We have told our primary care physician that we're not monogamous and we get tested every six months, for herpes as well as everything else.

Re herpes, we ask people ahead of time if they have it, and quite a few people have said yes -- then we don't have sex with them. Obviously people could lie about that, but maybe it's easier just to have sex with people who already have herpes, since there are plenty of them. I imagine we'll probably get it someday, but we know lots of people who have it and usually it's not bad to deal with.

HIV is obviously worse, but we use condoms and also ask people explicitly. We may get it... but the odds of getting hit by a car seem higher, since we don't have tons of extramarital sex. And again, we would know early on because we get tested frequently.

A regular fuckbuddy of mine (in his own open marriage) just got the HPV vaccine. He said there was some pushback from his doctor ("it's not recommended for you"), but when he insisted, they gave it to him. We'll probably do that too.

The truth is that if I still wanted to have kids, I would have been much more reluctant to open the marriage. The risks to fertility from STIs seem much higher than the risk of dying from an STI.