Savage Love

No Pressure

Comments

1
All dead Mormons are now gay. Awesome.

Mormons are also known for performing posthumous marriages--marrying popes to nuns, and stuff like that, because in order to get into the Celestial Kingdom, you have to be MARRIED: part of the Mormon conspiracy to make as many Mormon babies as possible.

Perhaps we should gay-marry some dead Mormons? Let's come up with a flamboyant husband for Brigham Young! How about a cute little boy toy for Joseph Smith?
2
I like this gayification of dead Mormons. Can we gayify Prop. 8?
3
Thanks Dan. Nailed it for me with multiple letters today.
4
Why are all the Choose-a-Mormons guys? Surely there are many dead Mormon gals who have also missed out on the joys of homosexuality.
5
@1: I'll attend the Young-Smith wedding in my hilarious, probably booze-soaked afterlife.
6
Wow, 17 years of waiting. LOST is nothing, if not patient. I think at this point an ultimatum (along with its likely consequence of ending the relationship) is his least bad option.
7
You may want to fix the link, but that's a hilarious little gambit.
8
Waiting for someone to mention this week's Joe Newton illustration.
9
LOST could be any one of a dozen or more men that I know. Pretty much always the same story: more willing to do 'those things'/more likely to initiate sex/ more willing to HAVE sex at all before the wedding, then poof, no more thaan the bare minimum effort after the big white dress comes off. Sex picks up significantly when she decides it's time for a baby, then poof, gone again. Poor dumb bastard is blindsided, no clue this was coming. A few years later, it's time for baby #2, sex life picks up again, it's like a gift from god, until conception, then gone again. LOST is ahead of the curve, it's only been 4 months, and he's figured out that what he's bought is not what was advertised.

I gotta say, I don't get it.
10
Laura Robinson is now a lesbian. You're welcome, Laura. Pussy is divine!
11
LW #3 and his wife got together too young. A lot of young women romanticize having only one partner for a lifetime but they don't realize when they're young that this means never finding out what really turns them on. Then when they're older they're too invested in the relationship to leave and their options also diminish with time. I know I wouldn't continue to be attracted to anyone I was with at 16.
12
There is just something SO WRONG about taking people who died for their religious beliefs and posthumously undoing it all. I'm not even religious, but damn.

And jumping jesus on a pogo stick, some people are just dumb enough to deserve each other. Woman who wanted to get married at year 10 but moped around 7 more years and man who thought sex would pick up with marriage after dropping off at year 10 - you kinda deserve each other.
13
So, LOST, she told you she slacked off on the sex because figured she didn't have to put out 100% because you weren't marrying her. But then when you married her, her response was to put out EVEN LESS?

First, she has turned sex into a transaction (I'll have sex with you, in exchange for a wedding ring). Last time I checked husband and wife were supposed to have sex because they loved and desired one another, not as a quid pro quo. You know what they call people who trade sex, right?

Having set up the transaction, however, she then reneged on it! If it were any other sort of transaction she would be liable for breach of contract.

Get some do-it-yourself divorce papers, in the section for "Cause" put "False Advertising." Then present them. When she gets over the shock, have the serious talk where you explain exactly what she did, and what complete bullshit it is, and offer her the opportunity to turn things around.

Gotta say, though, if it took five years from the point of her first complaint for you to turn around your end of the bargain, you have a fair amount of apologizing to do yourself.
14
Like LOST, I hoped that sex would become more frequent with marriage. Silly me! Cut your losses because you've been served a bill of goods instead of the real deal. Don't make the mistake I did and wait three decades before coming to your senses.
15
No question about it, no-sex-wife is a bitch.... but dating a woman for 10 years and not proposing unless you think it will get you laid more often? He's not exactly a catch either.

Re: mr. poop. At least he suggested cigarettes and not cocaine?
16
Woohoo! "undefined Anderson" is now officially gay!

(Methinks they need to bug-check the coding for their database queries.)
17
@15: That's what I was trying to get at- the man who strings someone along for several decades and then caves in hopes of more sex and the woman who uses the (pretty unbelievable) promise of more sex to lure him in kinda deserve each other.
18
I feel bad that POOP is worried about sounding like a bitch, when "approaching" the issue of boyfriend pressuring her to poop on demand! Hon, you're doing fine. Is your boyfriend worried about sounding like a bitch?

Dan's advice to LAME is so right, poor fella. And just think, if you stay with the girlfriend you loved at 15, you might end up something like LOST, trapped in his sexually unhappy marriage! I knew the minute I read that letter, the comments would be chockablock with hate for the sex-denyin', false-advertisin' wifey!

But look, these two have been together for literally half their lives, since ages 16 and 18! How much if any sexual experience do they have outside of this relationship? Does this woman even have a clue what excites her, personally, given that she never initiates or asks for anything she wants? This is a woman who was willing to wait around for, what, sixteen years to get a proposal from the man of her life? Her whole adult life. Neither of these people is particularly good with initiative, or, I'm willing to guess, clear communication.

There is an obvious solution to their problems that may seem pretty milquetoast and Ann Landers, but: counseling! Sex-positive sex counseling for this couple, immediately. If she won't go, he needs to spell out that the marriage is directly threatened by the issue. Then, he needs to accept that the only problem in this room is not going to be "she stopped putting out"--there is definitely some story on the other side of those 17 years, but she needs to be encouraged to tell it before they can move beyond and start having sex they both want.
19
LAME - "Win her back"? What is this - Wimbledon?

No. Just - no. Lose that mindset and then come back and ask a real question.
20
i always found it a bit interesting how mormon and moron are somewhat similar in text. to the girl with the bf who wants to watch you poop, DTMF.
Sexual pressure is a prelude to him pulling a chris brown on your ass. to the dude married to the dud. DTMF! life is too short to be married to prude. to the dude gettin text from the lost girl friend...dan is right but did not give you all the advice you needed. if you can handle it, you should start texting her back but come off real mean, you know, like chris brown..."whats up bitch" smack smack...i swear you will get more poontang off that than you have ever seen! once your turn that stuff inside out, drop her ass like she dropped you. you will have instant poontang for the rest of your life.
21
@LOST
There are actually some decent sex and relationship therapists out there. I don't think either of you sound competent enough to handle what an ultimatum means - but I do think it's time for your wife to have to face how she's using sex (yep, a transaction) and for you to figure out how to communicate more effectively. Sounds like you've been fighting for the past four months... get yourselves to some group or couples sessions and try to put it in perspective. Divorce seems likely, but there are steps you can take first.
22
Hey, why is LOST's wife a bitch, exactly? Because after spending her entire youth--well, ten years of it, from 16-26--with LOST, he STILL wouldn't propose? What did HE do to string HER along that whole time, and then even for another 6 years before finally getting married? Did he happen to make clear to his girlfriend of 16 years that he was proposing primarily so that she would return to giving him better sex, and that if she did not, he would be very unhappy? Or did she just think that he finally came to his senses / gave in / gave up and handed her a ring?

He says talking doesn't work, but what exactly are they saying in these conversations? Pardon me if I don't trust that the people who couldn't figure this out despite spending their entire lives together are probably incredibly poor "talkers". They need help with the talking, and help reaching each other sexually. What do you think the odds are that LOST's wife is sexually satisfied? I'd say low, so why aren't we worried about them both rather than blaming her and pitying LOST, as if his only fault was not escaping from her earlier?
23
It's actually http://alldeadmormonsarenowgay.com/
24
@18: I think so far we've been pretty "chockablock with hate" for both of them.
25
@20
There is almost literally no way that you have ever seen or touched a vulva if the word you'd use for it would be "poontang."

26
@22: How is exempted from this? Her loser bf won't commit? So FIND SOMEONE ELSE. How is tricking him into marrying you w/ false promises of sex a good solution?
27
Sorry- How is *she
28
@25: I have a vulva, and the word "poontang" always makes me smile. Plus, my spellcheck doesn't recognize it, which is always a good sign/
29
@25 it always makes my wife giggle. of course she doesn't have set requirements on how i need to act or behave. you remind me of rick santorum with your passive agressive weak ass controlling nature. eat this bitch: POONTANG! POONTANG! POONTANG!
dude with the texting manipulating biotch...see how its done? i wouldn't be surprised if #25 was related to her.
30
right on #28. you get me. and no #25 #28 is not my wife!
31
okay i have done the research. hate to burst your bubble #25 but the fact that poontang doesn't make you giggle is proof that you are really not gay or trans. sorry. now go back to your wife and kids! they are getting lonely in nebraska!
32
LAME is getting a standard Dan Savage gem. Teenage romances are starter relationships. My prepubescent children are already aware that the first few relationships are for practice only, even if they feel like "true love".
33
Dan~

Thanks for posting the site to convert dead Mormons to gay. The Mormon practice of converting dead people is so despicable and sickening, and I liked being able to do some posthumous conversions of my own.

Keep up the great work, my dear. Love ya Dan!!
34
@15 mydriasis: Well said!
@29: I haven't heard the word "poontang" mentioned since Caddyshack!

Dan, I know that this is WAY off topic from the subject content of the letters in your column, but WHY are there ads---in The Stranger, of all places--- to sign petitions to overturn Roe vs. Wade??? Ads for Republican candidates?? "Good Christian podcasts?!? WTF??
This has absolutely fucking NOTHING to do with "protecting the unborn", and EVERYTHING to do with keeping women and girls pregnant, barefoot, helpless, voiceless, and in the kitchen!

Dan....don't you support Planned Parenthood? Really--what's up?

Thank you all for letting me get this off my chest.
35
I just retroactively married Joseph Smith to Liberace--Woo hoo!
Can someone start a site where we concert dead Catholic saints to Islam?

Does a site exist that makes dead Jews like mayonnaise in the afterlife? Or wait, wait: could I get Menachem Schneerson to eat a bacon cheeseburger--ooh!

The possibilities are endless . . .
36
@25: In that model of political correctness, "The Vagina Monologues," my favorite synonym is "coochie-snorcher." I defy you to pronounce it with a straight face.
37
Dan, if I had the power I'd nominate you for a Pulitzer for your answer to LOST. Dude, sex is not some reward women are supposed to dangle in front of men. Dan pointed out what should be obvious - you need someone who likes what you like. Since sex is obviously very important to you and not to her, you should probably divorce her before you bring a kid into the mix and really fuck everything up.
38
Okay, so LOST and his wife got together at 18 and 16. Ten years after that, the sex falls off, and she says something like she's feeling a lack of commitment from him and that affects her sex drive/willingness to be intimate with him. Then 5-7 years go by before they get married? What happened in that time?

Also, I'm a little confused about the oral issue; at first, he says that she kept him 'satisfied' with oral and other things. Then he says that she wouldn't do oral or other things and this has not improved since the wedding. Did she stop giving blow jobs? Not want him to go down on her?

Furthermore, there's this line--'only when she's awake enough to actually have sex'. Is she narcoleptic? Start sex earlier in the evening! That's what DVR is for!

They need to have a conversation. "I miss the fun sexy things we used to do, such as . . . I would like to get back to that. You used to do them, or at least some of them, but now you say you're uncomfortable with it. What gives?"

He never says he loves her.
39
Just for the record, I can tell you that the proxy baptisms for dead people are not actually supposed to make the victims--I mean corpses--Mormon. It's more like a one-time offer to join their eternal pyramid scheme from the afterlife, which can be accepted or rejected by that person.

You see, Mormons believe there is a sort of holding stage when you die, and nobody's soul gets to its final destination until judgment day. In the meantime, proselytizing continues in "spirit prison", where bad or non Mormon people go to await judgment.

Sounds rather needlessly bureaucratic for an omnipotent god's setup, but if you swallow that, the technicality that this post-mortem process is an imposition on dead folks probably won't occur to you, much as the imposition of door-to-door proselytizing would be lost on you, if you accepted the Mormon worldview.

So naturally, we have such amusing reactions as "all dead mormons are gay"! People like Mormons, who believe that being gay is a choice, probably won't think it's reasonable, but then if it's actions that count rather than attractions, I suppose dead Mormons don't have to accept a gay afterlife if they don't want to!

Fortunately for me, as an ex-Mormon I have nothing to worry about in this regard, as I have firmly rejected the one true church and gospel of Christ on this earth in life. No takesy-backsies.
40
There are tons of fucked up women like LOST's wife out there. The ultimate solution is to liberalize more and the next step after marijuana decriminilization are legally designated red light districts where men like lost can dump a huge chunk of his pay check and then go home and show his dead beat spouse where all the money went, to women who earned it!
41
@chi_type: See, I'm Jewish and I don't let posthumous baptism bother me, because I know it doesn't work. They're just spinning their wheels. They're doing it not for me but for themselves. What a surprise when they die and find out they didn't earn any Jesus points for all their efforts.

As for LOST, having been there, I suggest going extracurricular or ending the marriage. Nothing good will come out of staying married to such a manipulative person.
42
@20 i always found it a bit interesting how mormon and moron are somewhat similar in text.

How about the book of Moroni?

And yeah, LOST is pathetic - you know, you'd think he'd have learned after all that time to speak up for what he wanted. What's with the five year gap between having the "I'll trade you sex for a ring" conversation and closing the deal? Sounds like you and she both have real doubts about one another and aren't really into each other at all. Definitely, man up and just file for no-fault now.
43
ooh, I got to convert Roger Reed! Only I was thinking "Life of Brian" and I read it as "Woger Weed." Double giggles!

Yeah, LOST, standard advice-column advice is that you can't marry someone expecting him or her to change post-vows. It's just more of the same as before the vows. That goes for her too, though. If she really didn't want to sleep with you, she shouldn't have assumed marrying you would make you want to sleep with her less.

Mourn the relationship, get a divorce, find someone who actually wants to have sex with you regularly.
44
Posthumous marriage is fine, but leave those dead Popes out of it! They have earned the right to be just as gay in the afterlife.
45
@17

I agree completely. :)
46
How any rational person can look at all the buggy claptrap and snake oil that virtually all religions put out there and then believe their religion is the really rilly rilly cross my heart and hope to die TRUE one is a mystery to me. Humans! What are ya gonna do with 'em?
47
@13, @21 - Maybe I am on a pessimist streak but I think long term married hetero sex is quite a bit more transactional than we want to believe. Of course, in an ideal world, both spouses want to be passionate with each other for passion/sex sake. I assume almost every good relationship starts off very sex-centric, i.e. tons of sex, mutually initiated.

To put my own situation out there, I would have sex almost every night. If I left the scheduling to Mrs. Horton, not sure it would happen more than a couple times per month. We both enjoy sex, but her desire for "gotta have it" left with the placenta. The compromise comes with her "giving" me sex on the in between days. There is definitely a correlation between the amount of choreplay, attention, free time, etc. she has and the sex I get.

If I over-analyze the situation, it is very transactional at times. And depressing. Instead, I try to think of the "giving of sex" as a gift Mrs. Horton does for me, similar to if I bought her tickets to a concert, sent her to the spa, etc. Don't get me wrong, I would give my left timbit to go back to the days where we threw dinner plates on the floor to fuck on the table.

At the risk of gender norms, I imagine this scenario is more common than Ed Hardy t-shirts at the Blue Martini. Seems like Dan Savage could assemble a ten volume collection of letters from men who complain their wives don't like sex as much as they used to before marriage/kids" only he would probably re-name it "The cure for insomnia"
48
@22: I really agree with your comments. I think there's more to what is going on between LOST and his wife, than can merely be found his letter. For ten years, she was willing to do oral, dress-up, sex in different places, etc. Then, all of a sudden it drops off. Why?

She says it's because she wants to get married. It takes five more years for them to get married. Is she feeling frustrated with him? Is her unwillingness to initiate sex and do all the fun things she knows he likes, a way of showing her anger? Has he been doing things that make her angry for some time?

Or is it because her interest in sex has waned (perhaps because of a life event or change of birth control pills, etc.)?

Or perhaps LOST has been doing something differently - maybe he's gained weight, or his hygiene has become worse, or he's eating something that makes his cum taste bad?

Or maybe, her circle of friends have become more conservative/religious/sex-negative and she is starting to believe their strictures on sex and being sexually adventurous?

I think these guys need to go to couple's therapy....it might or might not work...
49
Assuming LOST's marriage isn't completely beyond hope -- and I'm none too confident that this is the case, but hey, miracles can happen -- perhaps he should try asking her what gets her off. Or, to put it more bluntly, he should ask her if she's getting off at all.

(At this point, a disclaimer might be in order. I am absolutely not implying that any given woman's disinterest in sex is necessarily the fault of her male partner, and that all the lower-libido straight women out there would falling all over themselves to have frantic lemur sex with their higher-libido husbands/boyfriends . . . if only their husbands/boyfriends weren't so unromantic or selfish or flat-out sexually incompetent. This may be the case sometimes. It may even be the case with LOST, who doesn't exactly come across as the world's most enlightened man. But this is obviously not the one, true etiological model of m>f libido mismatches, and I'm not claiming that it is. And now back to our regularly scheduled comment.)

Somewhere in a past thread, Erica mentioned that whenever yet another "my wife/girlfriend never wants sex" letter appears in SL, she can't help but wonder if the wife/girlfriend in question isn't having orgasms at all. I also wonder the same thing, particularly in the case of LOST's wife, because it sounds like her sexual experience is quite limited. It makes sense that she wouldn't have much interest in sex if she's never had an orgasm -- and if she's a woman on the less-orgasmic end of the spectrum who isn't willing to put in some effort and experiment, this is entirely possible.

Of course, we have no way of knowing if LOST's wife is pre-orgasmic. There are any number of other explanations for her disinterest in sex, although this one seems plausible enough to merit exploration, particularly because it's something they might actually be able to address.
50
I think there's more to what is going on between LOST and his wife, than can merely be found his letter. For ten years, she was willing to do oral, dress-up, sex in different places, etc. Then, all of a sudden it drops off. Why?

She says it's because she wants to get married. It takes five more years for them to get married. Is she feeling frustrated with him? Is her unwillingness to initiate sex and do all the fun things she knows he likes, a way of showing her anger? Has he been doing things that make her angry for some time?

Or is it because her interest in sex has waned (perhaps because of a life event or change of birth control pills, etc.)?

Or perhaps LOST has been doing something differently - maybe he's gained weight, or his hygiene has become worse, or he's eating something that makes his cum taste bad?

Or maybe, her circle of friends have become more conservative/religious/sex-negative and she is starting to believe their strictures on sex and being sexually adventurous?

I think these guys need to go to couple's therapy....it might or might not work...
51
If LOST doesn't have any kids he should have gotten a divorce yesterday. If everything he says is true, he is dealing with a grade A greedy woman that doesn't deserve to have a husband.
52
@41 - "See, I'm Jewish and I don't let posthumous baptism bother me, because I know it doesn't work."

That's not the point. I seriously doubt that any of the people who get pissed off by this practice by the Morons believe it works. Their voodoo is no different than any of the other voodoo done by any other of the live action fantasy role playing games we call religions.

People get pissed off about it even though it is all bullshit because the intent behind the action is so utterly disrespectful and arrogant. It's no different than pissing on someone's grave. The corps in the ground really doesn't care cause it isn't animate anymore, but the act itself is still an insult to that deceased person's memory.
53
@34 autnie grizelda, those ads are fed based on the content of the page you're looking at, and the content of the pages you have recently looked at. Use "Mormon" or "Christian" often enough, and you get ads like that. If that kind of content shows up on a bunch of pages you go to, no matter why, you'll get ads like that.
54
For someone who tries fights against hate speech, I find that website about Mormons incredibly hateful. The Mormons who did baptize were doing so against policy and do not represent the entirety of the religion, they were breaking rules.

I think Mormons are weird, but a website mocking their practices because a few people made mistakes seems again, incredibly hateful.

As for their views on homosexuality, their official policy is that it is NOT a choice, but that acting on homosexual impulses is wrong. I'm not saying that's really forward-thinking or anything (I certainly disagree with it), but if you're going to hate, at least get your facts right. There are dozens of churches with similar policies/doctrines.

http://mormonsformarriage.com/
55
I see LOST as a lost case, indeed. It doesn't sound like the relationship was ever very satisfying for him sexually (he doesn't mention other aspects of it), and it doesn't sound like it was all that satisfying for her either.

Oftentimes people dream that others will magically change if they wait long enough or send enough signals. We see this person we're with, and we keep imagining another person, doing other things, behaving differently, that we'd love to have instead, and we imagine him/her morphing into this other person as time goes by.

It seems to me both LOST and his girlfriend did that. He thought she would become more sexually active and interested, she thought he would propose. Both were fooling themselves; they apparently never thought deeply about their priorities -- what they really wanted -- and whether or not they were getting closer to those priorities as time went by.

I hope they can still have some serious conversations about what exactly they want and how they should go about getting it. I hope they find out that the only thing that kept them together was not these imagined scenarios in which the other person would morph into their desired partner. I hope, but I admit it's not what I expect. They probably should divorce and split up, and give each other's life another chance.
56
@49(echizen_kurage), indeed a good point. The LW mentions himself as GGG, which may (or may not) imply he's tried to find out what gets her off and has worked to make it happen; but all the rest of the letter suggests he didn't give that question much thought. They could try that.

'Frantic lemur sex'? Are lemurs renowned for sexual prowess?
57
@22 She is responsible for staying in a relationship that she didn't think was going where she wanted.

But it gets worse. Instead of saying, "I want to get married," or, better yet "I want to get married soon, do you see us getting married in 2 years or so? Because if not, I need to move on," she said, "you're not going to marry me, so I'm not giving this relationship 100%" which effectively meant, to her, "I'm withholding affection from you, that's what you deserve, but I accept no responsibility for this relationship." That is beyond simple bitchiness.

LOST's wife sounds like a coward who either thinks very little of men or thinks very little of herself. LOST is a fool for thinking marriage would make things better. They both got what they ordered.
58
"Your Mormon is: Catherine Hayes. That's all there is to it! Happy trails Catherine Hayes!"
59
Hm, if she was doing a lot of the same stuff he was into for ten years, then that's a pretty good indicator that she was at least somewhat into it herself. The question should be why that changed.
60
I'm surprised Dan didn't pick up on LOST's wife's question about not giving 100% of her romantic energy to a committed partner of 12 years. That sounds like a dealbreaker to me!

LOST sounds a bit gullible to buy into the deal, thinking that a ring would change things after 17 years. But if the deal was made, he has a right to ask her to live up to her agreement or make some concessions.

And LOST, I hope and assume this woman is very very special in other ways to make up for these shortcomings.
61
Why not make LOST and his wife prehumous Mormons? That way he doesn't have to divorce her, he can just marry someone else, too.
62
I agree with Dan that all of LOST's options suck, but I have to wonder why this couple is together in the first place.

To pout and deny your SO sex to get him to marry you is really stupid - why would you want to marry someone you had to blackmail into it, rather than finding someone who actually wanted to marry you? And to say straight-up that you're not giving the relationship your all, you're admitting that you're in an unfulfilling relationship ... for what? To prove a point? Instead of walking away and finding someone that will actually make you happy?

And then for LOST to hang around 7 more years, still not having satisfying sex? Again, for what? And for her to go on the record as wanting marriage and then wait 7 more years for it, instead of saying around year two, "Look, I want to get married. It seems clear that that's not what you want, so I need to move on"? It seems to me that the relationship should have ended at year 10 ("well, you won't marry me, so no sex for you!" is bullshit, and I wouldn't want to be with someone who viewed sex that way) or year 11 or 12 (realizing marriage isn't in the cards).

And people who think "it'll be different when we're married!" are nearly always wrong. People are who they are, and a wedding doesn't change that. LOST, propose counseling, and if she won't go (or if it doesn't work, but I suspect she won't go), get a divorce. It sounds like straight-up incompatibility to me.
63
I think in the above letter from POOP, being GGG doesn't require you do everything your partner wants. Give it a try (Game) not be judgemental (Good) not immediately ruling it out (Giving) but...it's not like she has to keep flogging away at something she doesn't want to do just because he wants it. It seems clear to me, she's not into it. He should be amazed and grateful he found a woman who didn't immediately tell him to screw off when he asked about poop play. I just don't see GGG as meaning "do everything he asks."
64
Just converted four dead Mormons. Two women and two men. Enjoy the LGBTQIA lifestyle folks. I may not be gay but I know some dead Mormons who aaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrreeeeee!!!!!!
65
Am I seriously the only one offended by everyone categorizing LOST's wife as a bitch? The woman stuck around for 17 years not being given what she wanted, now she's not giving him after 4 MONTHS what he wants and she's a bitch? Maybe it just takes some warming up. Give her 17 years, maybe she'll come around. And if this guy seriously only married the woman he'd been with for 17 years to pick up their sex life, well then shame on him. They deserve each other. People think homosexual marriage will ruin the institute, well if that's a heterosexual marriage I'd say it's got nothing to fear. Geez.
66
@63

The impression I got from the letter is that she IS okay with it, she's just a little shy.

Personally I'd tell the guy to fuck off. But that's me. She seems open to the idea. There's things that are outside my comfort zone that I'd be willing to do with the right guy - but it might take a little working in for it to happen. That seems like what's going on with her.
67
LOST and his wife should become Mormons. Another marriage, no divorce...
68
@ankylosaur:

I was going to go with the more standard phrase "frantic monkey sex," but on a whim, I decided to mix things up and substitute a different primate. As it turns out, my choice of "lemur" may have been cruelly ironic. According to this article:

The vagina of mouse lemurs is sealed year-round except for a few days around mating and parturition, and females are sexually receptive for only a few hours during one night per year.


Apparently, this is standard practice for most lemur species. So, LOST, if you're reading this: cheer up, it could be worse!

(On the other hand, who wouldn't want to pledge eternal devotion to this? AWWW, LOOK AT THAT LITTLE FACE.)
69
re: LOST, am I the only one who finds the most troubling line in his letter, "here's my dilemma: She won't do anything besides traditional sex—*******and only when she's awake enough to actually have sex*******" so is he/was he trying to have sex with her when she was still asleep then? Definitely appreciate how hot transitioning from sleep to sex can be/is **when both parties are into it**, but from how we wrote it it sounds like he's verging on non-consensual sex (or at least was in the past)

@ 20's on crack if (s)he thinks that "Sexual pressure is a prelude to him pulling a chris brown on your ass.". Asking your partner to take a shit in front of you and beating the shit out of them are world's apart (disclaimer - not a scat person at all myself)..
70
@22: Because an expectation of marriage without a specific discussion, even if it is the cultural norm, is unreasonable these days. I dislike the use of gendered epithets, so I wouldn't say LOST's wife is a "bitch", but if LOST's wife wanted to be married all those years, then the reasonable thing for her to do was to ask LOST to marry her. If he said, "No," then she could have evaluated whether she wanted to continue an unmarried relationship or break up. Instead, she disingenuously used the possibility of more/different sex as a bargaining chip to secure a legal contract, which is all sorts of unethical. Don't misunderstand me: LOST could have been a total asshole here too; we only have his side of the story with which to work, so we can't really be sure. Either way, though, LOST's wife seems primarily responsible for taking a dysfunctional situation from which it would have been relatively easy to walk away and vastly complicating it with a far-reaching legal contract.

LOST is the one asking the question, so we're biased toward his perspective; if his wife wrote in asking a question, the advice to her may very well also be DTMFA.
71
@ LOST. Stop & Think. Even if you are good at something it still takes work. By work I mean that you have to have the desire keep it moving. Just like a car, you have to have your foot on the pedal to keep it going. Next take control of your life. Get to a counselor, with or without her, and work this out. Do not take NO for an answer. If she is not interested than she is already out of the marriage. If she does go, the worst that can happen is that she dumps you there. Either way you know where things are headed. Do it now......really.....right now. You deserve to be happy. What are you waiting for....you'll feel much better down the line with whatever happens.
72
The one thing that is clear about LOST's situation is that his wife isn't in it for the sex, and probably never will be. At very best, she will agree to live up to her end of the bargain. But somehow I doubt that she will ever work up anything resembling actual desire for her husband. Over the long term, that will tend to wear on his self-esteem.

They need to determine what is the actual glue that holds the relationship together (apparently it isn't sex; hopefully it isn't inertia). That probably will require the help of counselors. Probably they will also need to reach some sort of accommodation, if she can't manage any actual enthusiam. Given her apparent attitudes on sex and marriage, I don't see that as very likely.
73
@echizen_kurage, indeed it's a lovely little face. (My country doesn't have lemurs, but it has these, which are also quite well-valued in the aaawww department.)
74
@54: Someone who is Mormon with a non-hereto orientation is expected to behave exactly like a straight person, or else to be celibate. Marriage of the straight variety would still be considered necessary to reach the celestial kingdom.

The stance that people can choose to refrain from homosexual acts despite their orientation is virtually indistinguishable from the stance that they can choose to be straight (or non-sexual); it's a choice of behavior, not directly a choice of orientation, because actions are what count, right? Therefore Mormons effectively believe homosexuality is a matter of choice.
(This is what I was referencing, btw--dead Mormons can choose to act on their offered homosexual orientation or not.)

And I doubt if Mormon authorities are serious about any rule against baptizing any old dead person--I think that's purely for the sake of PR, a cleanup job to avoid criticism from a world that doesn't understand their esoteric practices (ask a Mormon--or Google--about 'milk before meat').

Granted, there isn't much they can do as they clearly have a wide open policy on submitting names. But just as they want to offer their religion to everyone alive, they believe they need to offer it to everyone dead to save them. So they do want all dead people to be baptized, including every holocaust victims. To them it's only an offer, anyway.

Btw, according to Mormon belief, people removed from their list of dead people's names are still technically baptized/offered their religion in the afterlife. So removing them after the fact only impacts how the church is perceived. What's more, they never remove any names. They still have my ex-Mormon name for example, just flagged as "not a member"/"apostate" or whatever. I'm sure they have all the holocaust victims who've been baptized in a database somewhere marked as "removed" or some such for "temporal" (earthly) purposes, but probably still marked as people who have been 'offered the gospel' in the spirit world. I don't think they consider all of the baptized deaders Mormon though, for what that's worth.

PS, never expect Mormons to be frank and forthright about this stuff. It's sacred temple stuff (sacred, not secret) that they don't want to have to explain unless you've already bought into their religion.
75
@22 if she only wanted marriage and thought he wasn't going to ever propose, why didn't she end it? Unless he kept saying he was going to "get around to it" it isn't stringing her along (and even if he did, she still could end it if it was taking too long). I definitely think there are things LOST isn't saying in the letter, but if he said he didn't want to marry her (or at least, implied it by not proposing for fifteen years after she told him what she wanted at ten), then saying marriage would mean more sex and then not following through it stringing him along. Granted, he should have ended it sooner too when it became obvious there wasn't going to be more sex, but he wasn't "stringing her along" any more than she was stringing him, and we know ultimately he gave in to what she wanted and she did not give him what he wanted.
76
Seventeen not fifteen. Still, both were the problem. And they're basically still in the free trial, so it shouldn't be that hard (from an emotional perspective) given that neither seems to be happy.
77
A couple of other points for LOST:
1. Is she even the least bit frustrated about her low sex drive? If so, she ought to be willing to talk with her obgyn to see if there is an underlying medical condition that is affecting her.

2. Couples counseling could help here. He could express his feelings of frustration and rejection in a safe environment, and a good therapist could probably help wife find the right words to convey what she's feeling.

3. I apologize for yelling, but DO NOT HAVE A CHILD WITH THIS WOMAN UNTIL THIS IS RESOLVED. And by resolved, I mean her genuinely wanting to have sex with you regularly, and for its own sake. And by "not have a child" I mean use a barrier method of birth control in addition to chemical. You never know when she might conveniently "forget" to take her pill.
78
To 26, 70, or anyone who would characterize LOST's marriage this way: "How is tricking him into marrying you w/ false promises of sex a good solution?" I missed where she promised him that things would pick up again once they married, and I also missed where he ran out and proposed after that. What I read says that after ten years the sex went bad, and he found out it was because she wasn't investing 100% in a relationship that wasn't leading to marriage. Then he waited for several more years before proposing, and who knows why he imagined that this would magically make the sex better. Again, was that what she promised? Where's the "trick"?

Like 65 says (and no, you're not the only one bothered by how quickly she alone is identified as the bitch in this relationship), give the woman 17 more years and maybe she'll come around! It's ludicrous to think of marriage as some kind of gift a man gives to a woman in exchange for a gift of better sex. If you think of it that way, everything is already screwy. No wonder people are disappointed! This guy seems puzzled that his wife needs sleep. But since he's happy being married, I say, go to a counselor, quickly! There is some reason these two are still together; why not preserve that, and try to break down the dam of totally failed communication that is keeping BOTH of them from having a happy sex life?
79
I converted Joseph Smith himself. There will be hella lotta cocksuckin' in heaven today!
80
I converted Nicolette Grant from Big Love to homosexuality, because I have had the biggest crush on Chloe Sevigny since her debut in Kids. But there is a huge a problem. I am a gay man, and thanks to baptising her into homosexuality, Nicolette now likes women. Before, even though I am gay, I had hope and I had a chance -- maybe I could be 1% bisexual, you know? Now, my crush is a lesbian. Thanks for fucking up my entire week, Dan!
81
@69: You're not alone--I found that line totally bizarre too. Awake enough to have sex? As opposed to what, letting him have at you when you're not awake? He's put out by that?

I just can't understand the way these comment threads go. People are so taken with the idea that women owe sex to men, and that if the sex drops off in frequency or quality, especially after an event like marriage or children, well, that frigid, selfish female is to blame! Never you mind that this woman was a virgin when she met LOST and presumably has never known anything other than the attentions of a man who takes 17 years to propose, and is dismayed because his wife is... too sleepy for sex? Why is she so tired, anyway?
82
Dan, I went to http://alldeadmormonsarenowgay.com/ and converted Nicolette Grant from Big Love to homosexuality, because I have had the biggest crush on Chloe Sevigny since her debut in Kids. But there is a huge a problem. I am a gay man, and thanks to baptising her into homosexuality, Nicolette now likes women. Before, even though I am gay, I had hope and I had a chance -- maybe I could be 1% bisexual, you know? Now, my crush is a lesbian, and I am crushed. Thanks for fucking up my entire week, you asshole!
83
lol @ Chloe Is my Daddybear

I think I'm going to convert Joseph Smith's (first?) wife, Emma. She always seemed pretty awesome--supposedly Joseph wanted to 'marry' some girl he fancied in addition to her, and even concocted a way to make it a command from God that Emma should consent to this. Allegedly, she then told him to stuff it. 8)

That story isn't 100% apocryphal, either, though it is one piece of contested evidence that Joe himself started in with the polygamy. Which would of course have been in line with God's will, just not the mores of the land! So it seems a fairly credible claim, in light of the fact that his successor went whole hog with it out west.
84
Someone needs to tell POOP to go get an enema kit.

It's relatively easy and painless*, and when you've gotta go after that, there's no stopping it. Sure, it'll be poo-juice rather than the solid stuff, but unless there's something really wrong with her it's a guaranteed performance.

Bonus: The ones they sell at Fred Meyer double as hot-water bottles!

*Unless you use the wrong temperature, fill too fast, or over-fill. Hellooo cramps!
85
I feel a little sorry for LOST's wife. I'm not suggesting that she's not a manipulative bitch, but I doubt she sat down and thought "Hmm, I hate sex. Now let me think how I can make sure I live with a miserable man for the rest of my life. I know! I'll promise him sex if he marries me, then pull out of the deal!"

I think it's more likely that she had high expectations for the sex she'd heard about, believed that being in love would assure great sex, tried it, was disappointed that there wasn't more to it, and didn't know what to do next. If she'd written the letter, I'd have advised her to try other lovers, advised her not to stop with the boy she lost her virginity to. But she didn't write the letter; LOST did. My advice to him follows.
86
@ LOST. Dude, I was in the EXACT same situation when I was 35yrs old! Here's what happened. After ignoring my requests for more sex, I started to see her get a little more flirtatious whenever we hung around this other couple that we were good friends with. One night while hanging out with our friends drinking and playing board games, she and the other girl started acting all horny. Not for each other but for swapping guys! I couldn't believe what I was seeing/hearing. While nothing happened that night, on two other occassions, she decided to go "hang out" with them while I was out traveling for work. Eventually - I found out that she had slept with them both. Did I mention that we had 2 kids and so did they? Anyway - we divorced in '06 and she's now married to some idiot amateur film maker who seems to be "in the closet". Meanwhile - I am engaged to a supercool, sexier, sweeter, younger and more fun girl who my 2 kids adore. My advice to you LOST - dump that wife of yours ASAP and go live your life.
87
Sometimes I sing the lemurs song from Madagascar as

I like to Do it, Do it, I like to DO IT!!
We like to Do it, Do it, We like to DO IT!!

So yeah, frantic Lemur sex made total sense to me, lol

88
So, LOST, you go to your wife, and you say (without a hint of sarcasm) "Honey, I love you, and I want you to be happy. I want us to be happy. I want this marriage to work. I'd do anything to make you happy, but I don't know what you want. Help me. What would you like?" (Keep it open. This discussion is not about sex-- yet.)

She says some stuff about a new living room set and a vacation to see her parents. You're open to her suggestions and seriously consider how to make them happen. You communicate this to her. Then you say "that's it? That's all you want? Is there anything I can do to make you happy sexually?" Now she sighs and starts to get defensive. She tells you once again how the things you want make her uncomfortable. You cut her off and say "I know I've pressured you in the past, and I'm sorry. I don't want to do that again. This isn't about me this time. I want to make you happy."

She insists that there's nothing she could have sexually that would make her happy except less sex. Next you bring up a doctor. You tell her gently that while you know that there's a wide range in what can be considered a normal sex drive, you'd like her to be checked by a doctor. Explain that you're worried there might be something wrong as it's unusual to lose all sex drive at age 26. Bring up possibilities as to hormonal imbalance. Make sure you let her know that this is all about her happiness. Reiterate that you want to make her happy. Bring up wanting to make her come. Let her know that you want her to want sex, not just put up with it for your sake.

Then ... ask her if she's been having an affair. She'll become defensive and accusative. How could you think such a thing? Tell her that "it's just that you used to enjoy sex, but around 10 years ago, you lost interest. I was wondering if there's someone else out there who attracts you, someone who's making you happy in a way that I'm not. I just want you to know that I'm okay with this. I want you to know sexual satisfaction whether I'm the one providing it or not."

She'll continue to deny, but now you've planted some very positive seeds. (There's some slim possibility that she really did start an affair 10 years ago, maybe an affair with someone she doesn't consider husband material. She could be aloof because of some complicated guilt, but let's assume that's not the case.) Let the subject drop with her denials, but bring up the joint visit to the GYN or the marriage counselor again. She'll be kind of stuck. How could she choose not to go when it's either that or leaving you with the idea that she's cheating on you?

Next step. You go to the doctors, and she insists, to the doctor, that she's fine, that you're the sick crazy one, and that her unenthusiastically allowing you to have sex with her now and then is a perfectly fine state of affairs. Except you get to tell the doctor how much you want her to be happy and how you want to make her come, and how you'd like your wife to desire you.

(Of course, the hormone idea might work, and you can stop here. It could really be that a change in birth control is all that's needed. And while we're on that subject, insist on using condoms this whole time. You don't want a unilaterally planned pregnancy complicating matters. If she wonders about the condoms, say that you're glad to take responsibility for birth control. This is about making her happy, after all.)

That's all the groundwork. If/when the trips to the doctors don't work, you can bring up YOUR wanting to sleep with someone else or a mutually wanted divorce because you're not right for each other, but now YOU'RE NOT THE BAD GUY! Now, you've tried everything, and she has to face the possibility (reality) that promising sex after marriage was a bitchy manipulative shitty thing to do. !! Go for it.
89
LOST is a class A MORON (not mormon). Dan was being kind & we all know it.
90
I have to laugh in the case of POOP,

When you share a bathroom for 20+ years, it's a given I've seen my wife poop. There's just no way she'd let me watch it actually exiting her body, however.

Maybe you should ask him to help see if you're a squirter. Given the choice, squirting is a lot more interesting to watch and way less on the ick meter. (Drifts off, daydreaming: "Mmmm, juicy poontang*")

Peace.

* Well, I used it. Still, it doesn't roll off my lips like "pussy" does. Reminds me too much of the time I mispronounced tampon as "tampoon" in middle school.
91
well done, @crinoline. that IS the perfect and detailed answer to his duh-lemma.
92
Hey, Dan -
Another great column. The bit about "choosing" homosexuality for a dead Mormon made me laugh out loud. Thanks for that. I really needed a laugh today.
94
Does anyone feel like LOST brought it on himself - particularly since he strung his wife along for 17 years, the same woman who told him "why should I bother if you're not going to marry me" at the ten year mark? I feel bad for her, I don't know what hold he has on her, and I don't see how he's been particularly GGG - what sexual demands has she made that he's met? He's casting himself as the wounded saint, and her as the lying, manipulative villain, and perhaps I don't have enough information to contradict that, but I don't feel like we have enough information to believe his claims either. My vote? Divorce her - finally free the both of them from a relationship where neither of them ever really got what they wanted.
95
I find it interesting that so many posters are piling on LOST's wife for viewing sex as a transaction when it's clear that LOST does so every bit as much, or he wouldn't have gone through with the whole plan. If the wife is a prostitute, as one poster implied, than how is LOST not a john? Doesn't anybody find it problematic that HE saw sex as his payment for a wedding ring? I get that people negotiate around differences in sex drives, or that sometimes, one partner indulges a kink that they don't particularly love for their partner's sake, but, for the most part, I think most people want to think of sex as being something for BOTH (all?) PARTNERS, not just for one. I know I would be bothered by the idea of being the only one who enjoys sex, while my partner just gave it to me because he wants something from me. LOST apparently wasn't, so big surprise he's in this situation. It's the old narrative where sex is something that men want and women put up with in hope that the men will give them shiny things. They both bought into it equally. If you basically view women as prostitutes, don't be surprised when that's what you get. LOST deserves equal criticism as the wife, as far as I'm concerned.
96
I'm so bored of Dan writing 100% from the male perspective. As usual, Dan takes the position that ONLY gratifying physical sexual desires counts as being GGG, totally ignoring the fact that LOST has been ignoring his wife's emotional needs for most of the time they've been together. I know Dan either doesn't understand or actively dislikes female sexuality, but the truth of the matter is that women in a long term relationship - for the most part - can NOT get hot and bothered when they are angry or upset with their partner. Some women - perhaps most, including me - can get excited with a stranger for whom they feel nothing, but that same stranger ten years later as a husband has to show love and affection for the woman to get aroused. That is female physiology, and no matter how inconvenient, it isn't subject to change by male consensus. Sorry Dan - keep on demonizing women who don't "put out" at every freaking opportunity, but you are not going to change anything. Women need love, and we are not ever going to be happy about giving unlimited amounts of sex to men who don't show us an iota of affection or appreciation.
97
@95

Actually, petticoat, if you look 83 posts above yours, you'll see the first of several people who have pointed this out, including myself.
98
@96 I agree,

LOST, since you are a newlywed, how often do you go on dates? If you're saving money for a vacation, have you planned a picnic/outing at a museum or taken her to a concert? What, you haven't planned your next getaway? Well then, how about get togethers with her/your friends? What have you done to make your (both) life fun?

If you can't have fun together, end the relationship. Work on being friendly!

Peace.
99
96: "....totally ignoring the fact that LOST has been ignoring his wife's emotional needs for most of the time they've been together."

Awesome when you find out Slogees can read minds of people who are married to letter writers, isn't it? Who knew Slogees were so talented? Tell me, gueralinda, what color socks is my employer wearing right now, and was my work satisfactory today?
100
@99

Blue. And it wasn't your best. :)
101
@82. I have a crush on Chloe, too. I'm a girl though, so thanks!