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800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
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When I was a teenager my mom got me all sorts of sex positive books. That was bad enough, I can't imagine how weirded out I would be if she had bought me sex toys.
I agree with pretty much everything you've said on the subject. Hear hear!
@ Eirene
"I think I learned a lot more about my actual anatomy and response because I *could* feel it with my fingers and wasn't depending on an inanimate object in between me and me. That seems like a valuable stage to go through, even if you later decide you like toys better."
Agreed. I think of sex toys as sort of a detached way to approach your own sexuality - so the idea that people who don't use them are uptight, it's like, really?
Guys! I'm okay, you're okay, we're all okay.
I don't remember how old I was when I started, which means I was quite young and never used either method. How about that. When I was about 10 my mom gave me a pretty straightforward book, more of a 'puberty' book than a 'sex' book, but they're related of course. You know, I forget how I learned the rest...
Anyway I turned out just fine.
"So, I gather from the comments that a lot of people have a tendency to sexualize ANY conversation about sex, and thus find the idea of discussing sex (or sex toys) with a parent creepy. Not everyone dose this, guys (if we did, we wouldn't be able to have academic disciplines that dealt with human sexuality, as every class would turn into an orgy or be so awkward that nothing could be discussed; I assure you this is not what my classes are."
Okay really though? I'mma guess you don't have children or deal with them very much. True fact about tweens - they often DO have a difficult time seperating the two. And at that age, talking about sex with certain people (who those people are may vary) will feel "creepy" to them. Some of us care about honouring those feelings and respecting the boundaries of young people even if they seem silly or immature to you.
If you ever have a daughter I urge you to hold off from having detailed sexual conversations with her, and I think most women here would suggest the same.
@50 (John Horstman): I have one word for you: context. Another, nuance, might also be useful.
There is a world of difference between college students taking a class on human sexuality, which is either an elective or a requirement for a major, which means they WANT to be there, and a 14-year-old girl, whose aunt has taken it upon herself, based on a less-than-stellar experience said aunt had as a teen, to talk about the 14-year-old's masturbation habits, techniques, and tools.
It's not that we all "sexualize any conversation about sex" here, but in this case, the lw isn't talking about having a theoretical, academic, abstract conversation; she's talking about her specific niece's specific masturbatory life--with said niece, who happens to be at an age at which it's damn hard to talk about one's own sexual experience.
You strike me as having perhaps more intellectual than actual interactions with young teen girls.
And your comparison of an aunt's offering to help go dildo shopping with the dispensation of condoms is also a bad one.
I also find it interesting that the letter contains no mention of the girl herself, her character, what kind of person she is, how she might feel about herself, or any indication of how she might react to an intervention like this. No mention of her at all, except as the object of Auntie's charity project. I find it unsettling. I think we need to be careful to respect young people's boundaries and not oversexualize or impose a fake kind of liberation based in our own personal issues. Everywhere young girls look today they are told through images and cultural messages that they need to act and look like pornstars in order to be of value. Sometimes that message is disguised as being 'liberated'. But if Mom and Auntie themselves are women who are truly resolved and at peace with their sexuality and history the girl will feel safe to get guidance in her own time and on HER terms. And it should be no other way. Her terms. a private dildo shoping experience will not do this for her. A soft, safe place to land, that also shows true respect for her and her right to choose the pace and experiences of her sexual history, will.
I think Pritchett nailed it here:
"but do not write an awkward letter! All you are going to do is communicate your own insecurities about the 'gift,' and trust me, she's got enough weird cultural hang-ups about sex and pleasure to deal with!"
So I give you a choice: discuss sex openly and be creepy, or do it covertly and communicate that sexual things should not be discussed between generations. I can't swear it's the best choice or even possible for everyone, but I'd far prefer to err on the side of showing that open communication is possible. Yes, it means pushing on a boundary, but that's a big part of what education is: pushing (gently!!!) on (stupid) boundaries.
What seems "creepy" to some commenters and might be disturbing or embarrassing to the lw's niece, is the idea that the aunt wants to get a dildo for her niece, either by shopping with her or for her. Not all of us find this creepy; it strikes me as well-meaning, but overly-intrusive, as well as based on a lot of assumptions about what the niece wants or isn't getting that are derived from the aunt's own experiences as a young teen.
It's entirely possible to "discuss sex openly" without being creepy, which is what I and several others do in real life and have suggested to WTT.
You have created a false dichotomy. And please stop phrasing this as an example of American prudishness about all matters sexual. I'm sure that there are many other cultures where an aunt's desire to buy a dildo for her 14-year-old niece would be seen as inappropriate or tone-deaf.
Also, anyone who thinks a girl's own set of fingers is an adequate phallus has clearly never tried fingering themselves. I can cram all five fingers in, but it's about as satisfying as making a sandwich and then staring at it.
110 has a good point. The LW made no mention of what the personality of the girl is like. That is quite an important detail to leave out. All the LW said is they got the mother's permission, as if that is all that matters.
This situation is also potentially creepy because the 14 year old is having the sexual expectations of somebody else forced upon them. What if she prefers her hands to the dildo? Will she think there is something wrong with her? People often feel guilty about not liking gifts, imagine how much worse that situation can be when the gift is a sex toy and the recipient is an impressionable adolescent.
You could get a girlfriend. The real question is why does the woman have to be a stranger? I have the same fetish as you, and after a few months of dating my girlfriend I told her about it. Well, first it was just about the foot fetish...the smell part came later. Was it difficult and embarrassing? Sure. She didn't know what to think at first, but now she's cool with it and indulges me because it makes me happy.
1. Dry medical information on where babies come from, how they get there, how menstruation fits in, what adult male and female bodies look like, basic information about men's anatomy including penises and hard-ons. Preferably this information would be in a context of other basic info on the human body including the circulation of the blood and how food is digested and eliminated.
2. A general attitude about sex that it should be pleasurable and that if it's not pleasurable something is the matter.
3. Information that if something is the matter, help is available, maybe in the form of a discussion with the well-meaning aunt, or from treatment from the right doctor.
4. Information that despite some of what she might hear from friends or the media or public schools, the definition of normal and perfectly O.K. is a lot bigger than she might think at first. I wouldn't go into any detail on kinks or fantasies.
5. Direction on where more information might be found. Webpages, scarleteen, books. Plus guidance on not believing everything since there's a lot of mis-information out there too.
And that's it. Toys or even gift certificates are too much like pushing in one direction and a direction that the 14 year old might not feel ready for or might want to explore on her own. You might tell her that toy stores exist, but that's all she needs to know for now. A suggestion that you'd like to buy her something from the store is creepy.
...and because I've learned how to arouse and delight her in bed as well. Turn about is fair play.
Right?
"...and because I've learned how to arouse and delight her in bed as well. Turn about is fair play.
Right?"
Well, of course. I'm not an asshole or selfish lover. The fact that she's been cool about my stuff makes me want to please her even more.
Mr. Savage, if I were one of your relatives, would you appreciate it if I were to openly offer a butt plug and a pillow book to your son on the eve of his 14th birthday? Or would you kick me in the 'nads, call the cops, and banish me from your life forever?
I don't know - maybe you would love it. But if it were my kid, I'd blast that offending motherfucker into the stratosphere, hoping he lands on a kiddie-diddling Catholic priest on his way down.
Yes, you're not me. And I'm not a relative. And, of course, how do I know DJ doesn't already have the items of which I spoke? I get that. But I think many, many people would agree with my sentiment: you want to fist? Great. Have a knuckle sandwich!
I'd get her the book and a smaller traditional vibe and I would not blush at all doing it. This kid sounds like she has a cool auntie and a great parent who is open to her exploring her sexuality in a safe way. Good for her. Better at 14 that she has a vibe or a dildo than a real live boy. Real live boys can get you pregnant. :)
I don't think it's necessary to give your niece anything. If she's horny, she'll find ways to pleasure herself. They make vibrating toothbrushes that she could easily buy. It's not about being anti-female pleasure, and the fact that you're concerned about that makes me wonder if this isn't more about yourself and your own needs to see yourself as some kind of "cool, pro-sex, feminist auntie."
I'd be willing to bet that most teens probably don't want their relatives thinking about them and their sex lives. Most teens would probably be mortified by this, as they are mortified by everything.
It's also funny that people are saying she should experiment with her fingers first and get to know her body. How the heck do you know she hasn't been doing that for half a decade already?
I agree with your first paragraph. When I was 14 I was doing plenty, although I've always favoured the partnered side of things.
Secondly, everyone's different. I was super comfortable with my body at that age but I have a friend who didn't masturbate until she was 16 (if you can believe it). I can't speak for others who mentioned it, but people were seeming to suggest that using a toy was the only acceptable and/or sex positive way to masturbate. Which I think is absurd.
Unless the child has already initiated such conversations, which it doesn't sound like is true *in this case*. For an adult to initiate those conversations (What are you doing masturbation wise? Tried this? How bout this? This? Let me tell you what I LOVED at your age...) strikes a lot of us as either deeply embarrassing or downright incest grooming freaky. Privacy matters to teens and tweens, and it's not like zero info about sex is the only alternative to oversharing.
From most of the personal recollections, it seems what would have helped was a good book or website (that would mention lubrication, getting warmed up first, the huge variety of toys that do different things if you want to experiment in that direction and how to do so safely) combined with a trusted adult willing to buy you something *at your initiation* like 128's mom.
I think (hope) she was referring more to people who posted things like this:
"AT 14 my vejayjay was tiny and finger sized, and that is all that should be inserted their. Little girls should be dreaming of kissing and petting, not penetration."
As if 14 is a "little girl". Um, lawd.
But gifting a dildo? EWWWWW!
Being an open, honest Aunt/Mother does NOT, in my opinion or experience, include coaching the youngster in masturbation techniques. I managed QUITE well on my own, thanks, and so will she.
ANY adult broaching the subject directly at 14 would have sent me into a fatal EEEEEEWWWWWWW spiral from which I doubt I would ever have recovered!
General book on healthy sex delivered discretely and without comment? Great!
Frank, age approrpriate discussions from birth onward about sex, relationships, her body/his body, safer sex and birth control? ABSOLUTELY!
Gift-wrapped dildo (who even says she is INTO penetration with a big fake dick, anyway? I never was, all my heterosexuality aside) or bonding trip to a sex-toy store....no. Please, God, NO!
I don't want to live in a world in which elders and youths compare masturbation practices in graphic detail...call me old fashioned.
Thin about it; in this forum, it is routinely assumed that the mastubation practices of ADULTS are PRIVATE and to be respected as such (whether they are beating off to porn or fantasizing about gremlins or whatever). But suddenly, because it's a "kid", HER privacy is fair game? WTF?
I THINK you can rest assured she's discovered her vagina and clit and other parts by 14. If not, the book should really help. No need for YOU to get otherwise involved. (Eewww).
letter why not reprint this column and enclose it? That should signal your good intentions as well as introducing your niece to Savage Love, if she isn't already a fan.
letter why not reprint this column and enclose it? That should signal your good intentions as well as introducing your niece to Savage Love, if she isn't already a fan.
Yeah, that's exactly the sort of thing I was referring to. As to whether or not the girl has at all hinted at wanting help buying stuff, I have no idea, but I'm super annoyed by adults who actually go so far as to think it's inappropriate for young people to be interested in doing whatever safe things they want to do to get off.
It's too bad there's not a greater emphasis on parents having a go-to library corner in the house where perhaps supportive materials can be kept - just as schools were keeping copies of the print IGBP. Which I believe is also a good thing for every home to have, regarding bullying, no matter what the kid's orientation may be.
Like most of the others, I lean toward providing information and money, rather than particular toys -- I mean, anal play with inappropriate toys is much more dangerous than vaginal play, but is anyone suggesting that one give one's teenager a butt-plug? Stick to the facts; let them choose their own toys on their own.
Well, the aunt doesn't want to have that conversation with her, either! I don't know if you read #20 (WTT wrote back in), but WTT clearly does not want a face-to-face on this, and does not want to trade specifics with her niece (unless her niece reaches out to her with questions).
Men: If you've ever wondered if your penis is big enough, never fear! From what I see on this thread, most women are apparently happy with finger-sized penetration... Not me, though. I wanted the kind of toy WTT is thinking about from a young age, and I would've been delighted to get a gift card to buy my own. (A slender dildo and a simple bullet vibrator would've been unexpected but welcome gifts, too.)
When you expect men to use their hands, it's because men can simulate the penis-envelopment of intercourse with their hands and orgasm from it. As far as I'm aware, most women can't simulate the vagina-penetration of sex with their hands and orgasm from it. I know I can't. I can bring myself to orgasm with my fingers on my clit, but I've never been able to bring myself to orgasm by using my fingers or hand as a penetrative device. That's where the inequality lies: Men can get an approximation of sex (with their hands) that's very rough, but that's nonetheless good enough to reach orgasm, but women cannot.
(That's part of why, in our culture, it's considered creepy for men to have toys--by many people, of many ages, unfortunately--so I understand why a Fleshlight would creep a nephew out. But a slender, non-anatomical-looking dildo shouldn't creep a teenage girl out.)
Giving a young woman a dildo is not pushing a specific or abnormal kind of sex-play on her. Almost all women like penetration, to some extent. WTT is just making sure that her niece has a safe, adequate alternative to using a penis. Just like the safe, adequate alternative to vaginas that men are born with at the ends of their arms.
Honestly, I'm shocked that so many people on this thread think that A) slender, neutral-looking dildos are creepy to teenage girls, B) 14 is too young to want a penetrative toy, and/or C) older females in one's family should not enable the younger women to obtain safe penetrative toys.
It's not sending some kind of message. It's not saying, "You shouldn't use your fingers." It's just giving her an alternative she can't (or, at least, probably can't) yet acquire herself.
And I think the intent will be clear, especially if the aunt includes a brief note to the effect of, "I know you're growing up. I just want you to be safe! If you ever need help with anything, please feel free to ask me." The niece might feel a little awkward, but it will be crystal-fricking-clear that the aunt's not "pushing" anything or hitting on her or whatever the heck some people think she'll think. It's a dildo. It's mainstream. It's not furry handcuffs with a butt-plug and a whip.
That's different. Most young women are curious about vaginal penetration. They know that's what intercourse typically is, and they want to know what it feels like. Far fewer young people experiment with penetrative butt-play. (Mostly, because it's not something they're as likely to see or hear about.) Giving someone a butt-plug, then, would be the equivalent of suggesting a particular, less-common kind of sex-play. Giving a young woman a dildo (to simulate mainstream, vanilla sex) is not.
See, that's why I think the aunt shouldn't buy a sex toy: every woman commenting here who went into detail on her masturbation habits described something else. My mode of operation is apparently quite the opposite to yours: my fingers on my clit don't do anything for me. My fingers in my vagina just press the base of my hand perfectly against my clit for me to come.
Her aunt giving her a dildo (esp. if the aunt doesn't talk to her about the present) suggests that she SHOULD masturbate with a dildo.
I disagree about your assumptions on people on this thread. A) I don't think teenage girls find dildos creepy, but dildo-giving aunts are something different. B) 14 year olds are like 20 or 30 year olds: some want penetrative toys, others don't. No-one likes one forced upon oneself. C) Older females in a family should enable younger women to obtain safe toys but only if the younger ones indicate wanting them!
I think we all agree that providing a book and gift card is appropriate.
I think we all agree that helping one's child (or niece) lube up and insert a dildo is inappropriate.
You seem to think that providing a dildo is more like providing a book. Most of us are saying we find it too much like helping the child insert the dildo. Too intimate, and therefore inappropriate.
Not sure why you think so. Are there studies on this? Personally, I never insert anything during masturbation. I don't pretend to know what "most" young women want, except that I think they want privacy, knowledge and control -- hence a book and a gift card.
My above comment was re your comment @143.
This is @144:
""... If you ever need help with anything, please feel free to ask me.""
Together with a sex toy, that note would really sound creepy!
If I was given a dildo as a teenager I certainly would think there was something wrong with me if I did not want to use it. I would also be too ashamed to talk about it, no matter how sex positive my household was. Creating the perfect environment cannot alter somebodies personality, some people are just prone to insecurity. I think people who are not prone to this have trouble understanding those who are, and assume there is something unnatural about being shy.
I find it really weird that you are implying that anal play, sadomasochism, and clitoral stimulation are somehow less natural than penetration. Please do not raise your children to think that penetrative sex is the absolute best sex and most natural form of masturbation. It's not fair to people who have other preferences.
What are progressives of the future going to do once buying minors dildos becomes too mainstream? Are you going to buy your daughters male hookers, and tell your sons not to feel left out because a hand is pretty much like a vagina anyway? If women were not capable of getting pregnant, would you guys care so much about trying to use dildos to distract women from sex?
Given that the majority of women can't come from PIV alone anyway (and those who can are more likely to be those who find coming pretty easy almost any old way -- yeah, I know there are exceptions), why would that necessarily matter?
Penetration with fingers is different than PIV, true, and for a lot of us works better (shallower, varying width, easier to hit the G-spot and to do simultaneous clitoral pressure or friction). In any case, as I said before, the majority of women don't masturbate with penetration anyway (sexuality professor Emily Nagoski quotes a study saying only around 10% do -- personally I think that number's on the low side, but I do think it's a minority).
And sorry to keep harping on this, but Dan always seems to ignore the possibility of a vaginal corona being any problem. In a 14-year-old*, AFAIK, it's unlikely to be sufficiently estrogenized to just stretch or fold out of the way. Why would people expect first-time dildo use at 14 to be any easier (just mechanically speaking) than the average first-time PIV at 14?
*We're assuming she's not sexually active or already practicing serious penetration, as otherwise this would all be a moot point.
FWIW, among typical het vanilla non-Savage-reading folks, dildos are in fact far, far less mainstream than vibrators. I don't mean no one uses them, but they're much less mentionable. I would expect even among today's teenagers that gossip about "did you know she has a DILDO?" would be a lot more potentially damaging than "did you know she has a VIBRATOR?" (It depends on where she lives and her school, of course.)
None of that means I am anti-dildo or think the girl shouldn't have one at all. But that's the cultural context at present.
I'd love to see where you think I implied that. What I said was that those aspects of sexuality are less mainstream, ergo a 14-year-old is less likely to be exposed to those ideas, and thus, less likely to become curious about them and start experimenting with unsafe objects in an attempt to experience those things. Vaginal penetration, on the other hand, is taught in many schools. "The male inserts the penis into the vaginal canal..." If you've heard of any middle or high school classes teaching about sadomasochism and anal play, please do enlighten me.
Please do not raise your children to think that penetrative sex is the absolute best sex and most natural form of masturbation. It's not fair to people who have other preferences.
In return, I would beg you to please not project your shame and insecurities on your own children, and thereby deny them access to books and sex toys that might help them discover for themselves through experimentation what their preferences are. I have no idea why you think someone would feel "guilty" or "forced" (as you say @115) by the act of receiving a gift, but please don't project that on your own children. I know you said you thought it was a bad thing that your mom gave you sex positive books (@106), but please don't raise your children in ignorance.
Giving young adults more safe options--especially mainstream ones--is not any creepier, suggestive, or intimate than giving them condoms. If you give your teenage girl condoms, it's not saying, "Hey, you better start having sex!" It's not saying, "It's not okay if you like girls!" It's saying, "Hey, I know lots of people your age have intercourse. I want you to have safe options if you do." It's not intimate. It's not personal. It's a fairly default assumption. If she doesn't want sex--or doesn't want sex with boys--giving her condoms isn't "pressuring" her to have sex. And giving her a nondescript dildo isn't pressuring her to do anything, either.
I don't do a lot of sex-toy shopping (only because the best ones are always so expensive, sadly!) and I don't pay attention to most girly shows and movies, but didn't Sex & The City popularize the "Rabbit"? Isn't that a vibrating dildo?
People might not be comfortable with the word "dildo," but it's still a fairly standard toy.
@152 I agree that that might be an issue, and a large or medium dildo would likely be problematic, but I would think a slender dildo + lube would largely get around that. But perhaps not. The first dildo my sister bought herself, she wasn't able to use. (She literally could not force it in.) If the girl just can't use it, no harm done.
However, I would imagine that whichever "sex ed" book her aunt bought would (hopefully) explain about one's hymen and whatnot, and the trickiness of first penetration. So, the girl would likely not draw any harmful or confused conclusions, if she did have problems. And again, no harm done.
Buying her a sex toy--or giving her access to buy one--is giving her options. Whatever toy she gets might not be the best option for her, but that's what she'll learn by experimenting with it. A toy isn't going to "close off" any route of experimentation or "force" her down any path. It does nothing more than open some doors for her. Where she goes from there is up to her.
So what did I do?
I used candles. I used carrots. I used cucumbers.
Somehow, I grew up unscathed, even without dildo-guidance. I figured it out. Just as I'm sure that WTT's niece and every other penetratively-curious 13-18-year old will do. She doesn't need someone to procure or help her procure a commercially-manufactured dildo. And just because she doesn't get one doesn't mean that she will forgo sexual pleasure or be surrounded by an environment that is sexually repressive.
Not all dildos look like realistic penises. There's nothing a silicone or glass or metal dildo can do that a hairbrush handle or a cucumber can't. A dildo manufactured for that purpose isn't necessarily any more hygienic than any other cylindrical tool by virtue of its intended use, nor is it less potentially harmful.
On a seemingly-unrelated note, there is a concern that American children are becoming less competent to navigate adult life, because their helicopter parents insist on mediating their every experience. I think this is just the furthest example of such behavior and thus an outcome to be expected. But if adults--no matter how well-meaning--back off, children will rediscover (or discover) resourcefulness. There is almost no motivator as strong as sexual desire and curiosity.
If I were fourteen and an adult brought me a pre-approved sex toy, with the clear implication that it would do wonders for someone my age, and I couldn't even get the damn thing in, I would think there was something WRONG with me. So I don't think there's any assurance that there would be "no harm done." If I'd bought it myself, then I would be much more likely to interpret the situation as having bought the wrong thing, or a bad product, or whatever. I might still think I'd been stupid for doing that (because that's how insecure fourteen-year-olds are), but that's a lot better than thinking there's something wrong with your sexuality or sex organs.
Whereas dildos, especially those made to look like human penises (with or without rabbitty things attached near the base and protruding off of it), are unambiguously sexual, and could mistaken for nothing else. Many are larger and thicker than an average human penis, and some are much larger and girthier.
Such toys' use is unmistakable. This can have the effect of making people uncomfortable (particularly if the user is young, as some of these comments, even here on this sex-positive site have shown).
You can't just go up to women and ask them if you could worship their feet. At least 95% of women think it's disgusting and perverted and will strongly refuse (or even call the cops). Your odds are greatly improved by using the fetish dating sites or Craigslist on the internet and advertising for exactly what you want. The only replies you get will be from those few women willing to accommodate you. And stay away from foot parties - you don't want to be slobbering on feet that other men have been slobbering on all night.
@154 I don't know how old you are, but I don't think you know what my generation is like. I grew up using the internet and I was exposed to a wide variety of perversions before the age of 14. Dan Savage's son grew up watching South Park from a young age, and he described that as his son's sex education. The reason I think you are implying that clitoral stimination, bdsm, and anal stimulation are less natural is because you keep talking about penetration as if it is a lot more acceptable than other forms of sexual pleasure. I don't think it is, there is absolutely nothing non-mainstream about using the clit to masturbate. Because of what is on tv these days, kids may know what a dominatrix is before they know about PIV.
I don't think it is a bad thing that my Mom gave me books. I suppose I used the word bad, but I did not mean it in that way. I meant it was embarrassing. It didn't damage me or anything, I was just slightly self conscious about all of the concern society has for my sexuality, and annoyed by all of the adults who assume I have never heard of condoms. The good thing about that was, it exposed me to a wide variety of viewpoints, some of which contradicted each other. I didn't mention this before but my mom also bought a waterproof vibrating thing and several times reminded me that we had one. She said it was for back pain but I suspected she was trying to get me to use a sex toy. She grew up in a sexually repressive environment and I felt like she was working out her issues on me.
I totally understand why you think a dildo is not pressuring, but no matter what arguments you make, many teenage girls would see it differently. That is not my opinion, it's a fact about how people work. People have different personalities and different people react differently to the same things.
A condom is not comparable to a dildo, because a condom is merely a safety precaution. A dildo is meant for sexual pleasure. Different objects, different purposes. Again, we don't give boys flesh lights, why all of the concern for female orgasms? You describe dildos as safe, but what is so dangerous about non-dildo masturbation? I suppose you mean it is safe compared to sex, but sex is not especially dangerous.
I don't mean to say it's uncommon or even "not mainstream," really. But vaginal penetration is what's taught in school in the "reproductive health" classes. Vaginal penetration is also the most common sexual activity vaguely alluded to in PG-13 books and movies (and even R-rated ones). Young women who are not explicitly reading something sex-positive about female masturbation (and/or female sexual pleasure in general) may not encounter the idea of clitoral stimulation for years after puberty. On the other hand, any young woman who's had even the driest, most basic sex-ed class knows that this goes in there.
Is this really a revolutionary idea that I'm proposing? That more young people know about (and thus think to explore, at least initially) vaginal penetration and PIV intercourse (and its analogues) than other types of sex-play?
I agree
@ cute
Thanks for sharing! I was honestly more interested in what SEX was like than what putting a foreign object in my body was like. I've never felt a need to have an inanimate object penetrate me and I never have (medical contexts and tampons aside). I guess I understand the curiousity but I guess I was interested in the whole package and not interested in settling for just one part. I've alwyays seen partnered sex as lightyears away from masturbation and not comparable in any way.
First, as I've said before--and as surely everyone knows--young men have a lot more success reaching orgasm without sex toys (or the help of books, advice, etc.) than young women do.
Second... Actually, I wish that young men and young women *both* had good access to sex toys and sex education. If my first boyfriend had used a Fleshlight as a young man, instead of learning to come by rubbing himself with a sort of sideways motion, perhaps he wouldn't struggle so much to come via intercourse as an adult. Not everyone figures out a healthy and efficient masturbatory technique as a kid. And, as Dan has pointed out before, bad masturbatory techniques can "train" your body out of reaching orgasm from the sensations of intercourse, decreasing your sexual satisfaction as an adult.
As far as people being dismissive of the idea that young women might hurt themselves while using a "creative" penetrative tool: There are plenty of ways you could hurt yourself. The most common is probably mild tearing of the internal tissues, but I'd guess the second most common is infections from makeshift lubes. If a girl finds out that her brother's been sneaking mayonnaise for his "me time" activities, she may think it's a good choice for her, as well, and not consider the difference between putting a food product on you and putting a food product in you.
If you can prevent that with a gift card and a book, why wouldn't you? (I would personally go a step further and just give her the "basics kit" her aunt's thinking about, but I think everyone should be able to agree on the gift card & book.)
Actually, I'm 25. I grew up on the Northeast coast with working-class, Democratic parents who weren't particularly religious. I happened to be exposed to sex at a young age via reading adult sci-fi & fantasy novels (I remember being surprised in the 9th grade to discover that my classmates didn't know what a ménages à trois was). But my parents didn't let me run free on the Internet or watch whatever I wanted on TV.
Even today, not all parents let their kids run free on the Internet and watch whatever they want on TV. In poorer parts of the country, not all the kids even have Internet in their homes (as I found out by living in some of those parts of the country a while back).
And in conservative parts of the country, especially, not all young adults are taught anything sexual by the adults around them except for the basic baby-making process.
So, yes, I do believe that, even today, the "old standard" of PIV is the most well-known among young teens. I'm glad the country is becoming more sexually open and progressive, but the basic "penis in vagina" narrative is still the most common by far.
The women I've heard of in that situation generally didn't learn that women masturbated AT ALL until they were grown up, or nearly so. But honestly, pretty much all the books I ran across in the 1970s that touched on (sorry) women's masturbation habits whatsoever mentioned clitoral stimulation. Surely it's even easier to find that information now?
And you're forgetting about the rubbing or grinding back and forth that many small girls do from baby- or toddlerhood on, whether to orgasm or no -- they discover the source of pleasure long before they have any idea that it might be related to sexual intercourse. As in one of Judy Blume's books, "I have this special place and when I rub it I get a very nice feeling. I don't know what it's called or if anyone else has it but when I have trouble falling asleep, touching my special place helps a lot."
Because PIV is the most basic, common practice, I can't believe that a slender, nondescript dildo is controversial or creepy when given to a younger but post-pubescent female family member by an older family member of the same gender. A dildo is one of the two standard types of female masturbatory toys. We're not talking about a weird, bright orange, thick, veiny monstrosity (such as one commenter described). We're talking something slender, smooth, and generally non-threatening. A starter kit. The basics. Nothing exotic.
I'm just surprised to hear that people wouldn't give a daughter or niece the basics unless she mustered up the courage to ask for it. You'd buy her tampons to put in there when that time came. Why not treat her sexual maturity with equal matter-of-factness? Buying her tampons doesn't mean making her feel guilty or awkward if she finds them uncomfortable and would rather use pads. And buying her a dildo can be handled with equal grace.
Yeah, but that's not mentioning them. I'm talking about actually saying the word out loud in a conversation that isn't specifically a very personal conversation about sex habits (by personal I don't just mean mentioning sex habits at all, but telling stories that are an effort to tell). I can't think of any of my vanilla-ish friends who would be much thrown by my mentioning vibrators in passing as a very common sex toy (and I'm sure this has often happened). Most of them are probably nearly as outspoken as I am on the subject. But I can't remember any of those friends ever mentioning dildos, and I would have to pick just the right moment to, say, tell a funny story about one.
You don't have to watch especially adult stuff on TV to be exposed to sex. South Park is pretty mainstream, and even The Simpsons is pretty risque these days. Family Guy even more so. Dan Savage has a show on MTV.
In my opinion, you don't have to be exposed to these ideas in order to have an interest in them. The clit is much easier to access and use than the vagina, at least for me. I'm still skeptical about teenagers being more curious about penetration, but I guess nobody has done any studies on this.
Yes, I can agree on the gift card and book being okay.
So while I expect someone who has had access to only the barest basics at, say, 12, to only know about PIV, those people don't have relatives eager to give them dildos. The ones who are curious enough to seek out some sexy books will have absorbed that clitoral stimulation is where it's at.
@141: I also wondered if mom and aunt were discussing this because the girl showed no interest. Or at least, to her mom and aunt she showed no interest. Which could mean she isn't very interested yet, or that they are not the people with whom she wants to chat about it. But as you say, there could have been 3 paragraphs on it that got edited out.
But if you don't have that sort of relationship and she hasn't been speaking to you about this stuff, by all means, don't just surprise her with a vibrator! That would be mortifying. You should start by broaching the subject of sex with her first and be perceptive enough to determine whether she's comfortable discussing this kind of thing with you before getting any more involved.
"clitoral stimulation is where it's at"
woah woah woah, let's not get carried away. :p
I did this (and I'm not signing my name to it for the reasons below).
My "niece" is not actually related to me, she's my best friend's daughter. I talked with my friend about it first when the daughter was 15 and my friend said it was too soon. I went ahead and did it (small (AAA-battery) curved-end vibrator, rechargable batteries, and lube) shortly after niece's 16th. It is illegal in my state to even buy sex toys for those under 18, let alone go shopping with them. I didn't know about the book or an appropriate website, but my niece is fairly internet savvy so I assumed that would take care of itself.
My reasoning: Condoms are imperfect for birth control and for STI prevention. Masturbation is safe. Adding another person to a young teen's sexuality increases complexity immensely. I believe that a person should only be sexual with someone else after learning personal preferences alone.
I haven't read all of the comments yet (167!!!), but I will. And the book will go to my niece's younger sister who is now 15, some time in the next several months.
Did you get permission from her mother when the girl was 16? Or did you just go ahead?
It was, very recently, and I think there's a lot of leftover squick still around. I suspect said squick was originally connected to the homophobic horror stories in old sex advice books about (1) the awful things homosexual men stuff up their butts and have to go to the emergency room to get removed, and (2) the antics of lesbians with artificial penises. (You may be asking how the latter qualifies as a horror story. Good question.)
In any case, not all young women read. The larger point was that, as long as all sex ed classes teach that this goes in there and not all sex ed classes teach about clitoral stimulation, knowledge of the role of vaginal penetration during sex will be more widespread than knowledge of the role of the clitoris.
My point was never to question the niece's sexual knowledge (on this point or any other). My point (as I elaborated in 168) was that, if you accept that PIV is a very standard, vanilla kind of sex, with many cultural allusions to it, then you can hardly suggest that dildos are some kind of unusual sexual device that the niece probably doesn't even want. Dildos simulate PIV. Thus, they are one of the two major default sex-toys.
The aunt actually wants to get her both a very small, basic dildo and a small vibrator. (You can read more from the aunt if you'll look at comment #20--she wrote back in.) Nothing crazy. Nothing that suggests an inappropriate curiosity or interest on the aunt's part. She wants to get her niece the two standard female masturbatory toys.
nocutename says, @87, "[Y]ou may be projecting a lot onto your niece. She may not be interested in penetration."
How is it projecting to think that a young woman might masturbate either with either clitoral stimulation or vaginal penetration? That's not "projecting." Those are the two standards. I don't know any female who didn't start with one of those two.
nocutename goes on, "Many of us are made uncomfortable with the idea of our relatives knowing anything about our sex lives, particularly our masturbatory lives."
I don't see how the gift of a very basic dildo and vibrator implies any real level of "knowledge" about someone's masturbatory habits. Again, the two basic ways for a female to masturbate are clitoral stimulation and vaginal penetration. All of us can guess, without even knowing this girl, that she does at least one of the two, if she masturbates at all. But we don't know. And the aunt won't "know," even if she gives this gift. For all she knows, the girl will shove it in the closet. It's not like she plans to ever ask about it.
If a dildo implies "knowledge" of you masturbatory life, then a parental gift of condoms implies "knowledge" of your sex life. But those gifts don't have to imply that. (And they certainly don't imply any special or intimate knowledge, beyond what anyone might guess.) They can be a "I don't know, and you don't need to tell me, but have this and be safe" kind of thing. And I don't see why they shouldn't be.
Well, the more people who treat dildos and vibrators matter-of-factly, the more likely they are to lose the last of that "squick" factor.
The way I see it, at worst the niece goes, "Whoa, my aunt is way too progressive," is embarrassed, and sticks the whole kit in a closet. At best, she appreciates the gift, it gives her a much-needed outlet for her desires, and it keeps her away from A) sex she might not be prepared for yet and B) painful makeshift sex-toys and possibly infection-causing makeshift lubes.
I think the aunt would know if her niece were too immature, sex-negative, or whatever to handle this gift. But even if she misjudges a little, I can't see this being a scarring-for-life kind of event. The aunt wants to help. I think she should go for it.
But oddly it is not. If I watch, say, Castle with my kids (and I do), they will see references to sex trafficking, to hookers, to bondage, to S and M clubs, to safe words, to strippers, to foot fetishes, to phone sex lines, to various costume and role play scenarios. What they will not see is the suggestion that any of the male characters have a penis, or where they might put that penis.
As others have pointed out, the "rubbing between the legs feels pleasurable" thing is something virtually all young girls stumble on for themselves. And if you poll down the people posting, dildos are NOT the standard thing that everyone wants. They may be what you want. They may be what Auntie wants. There is no reason to assume they are what the niece wants.
As I think Erica noted upthread: you give her one at your initiative and not hers, she can't even get it in, you think she'll shrug and set it for a few years hence and not feel like she Did It Wrong? That is not the default assumption most of us would have gone for at 14.
Sure, ultimately. But when you're looking at a question like "What makes a tactful gift for a sensitive adolescent girl?", you ignore the currently prevalent culture at your peril, as you may inadvertently be reinforcing a squick. I don't know what subculture she may live in, so I'm making recommendations based on what I consider most likely.
If you find yourself wondering (as WTT did in her letter): "Do you think it would be inappropriate for me to cross that boundary with my niece?" Then, yes, it is likely to feel inappropriate to the niece.
I'd disagree that the one you mentioned is the worst case scenario.
I'd say the worst case scenario is that a 14 year old girl interprets a sexual gift as a sexual overture. You think that sub par masturbation will impact her developing sexuality? I think that anxiety that her aunt will act more agressively on this presumed attraction would do more damage than that. But hey, that's just me.
(On another note, I appreciate your voice here in terms of how a penetrative gift to an adolescent might still be way too creepy, even to someone who, as an experienced adult, likes penetration more than other forms of stimulation.)
Nocute, agreed on letting kids show some initiative and resourcefulness. Much better training for later in life.
Following off something mydriasis said upthread, about partnered sex being very different from masturbation: I'm surprised at how often the sentiment "If she gets orgasms from a vibe, she won't want to bother with boys and so can't get pregnant" comes up. (Does it work for teenage lesbians, that possession of a vibe causes them not to fool around with girls?) I don't think the only reason teenage girls bother with teenage boys is that they've heard you can get orgasms that way.
We don't all share the same backgrounds; unlike Eirene, I have never still to this day, experienced sexual tension as something that MUST be relieved or I can't be functional, even though I love sex and masturbate every chance I get, too.
When I was a 14-year-old girl (I'm almost 50 now), I was mostly very curious about what "sex" felt like--by which I meant what having a penis inside me felt like, as well as being vaguely horny with the expectation that filling the empty ache inside me would give me an orgasm. It didn't, and after a few unfulfilling attempts with homemade dildos, I stopped trying to masturbate until--yes, Eirene, I was 26 or 27 years old and had been married several years. And that proved no good, either.
In fact, learning to be orgasmic took a long time: I was 38 the first time, and I still can't orgasm in any other way but with my very specific kind of vibrator and in one position. That doesn't mean I didn't have an avid interest in sex nor a whole heap of sexual partners.
People have different physiological responses. That's part of what I meant by not projecting your own onto your niece. BTW, when I said that, I was referring to the specific assumption on WTT's part that her niece would be interested in penetration; I was, but I know that a lot of girls aren't.
@186 This is speculation but I think if anything, a sex toy will make somebody a lot more interested in sex, not less. And as you pointed out very few people would get a boyfriend just to know what it feels like in the vagina.
When I was a teenager I was extremely sensitive to people being condescending to me and talking down to me, and somebody trying to get me into sex toys to keep me away from boys would definitely fall under that category.
When I was 29, I'd already had a book published. What if I said something like, "I can't believe all these women who haven't been published; don't they feel stupid?!"
The superior attitude isn't helpful.
If you mean PIV sex then count me in the same group. I vetted the guy I lost my virginity to (through other non-PIV activities) and was definitely rewarded for "waiting" (I was 16, but I had been sexually active for several years so it was a conscious and deliberate "waiting" even if I wasn't notably old when I did it).
@188
Haha, yeah diversity is interesting. I'm a morning person so the "I need my coffee" crowd has always perplexed me. On the other hand, maxing out my dry-spell tolerance (say three weeks or so) renders me unrecognizable.
@189
My personal experience (partnered "sex" at 14, enjoyed PIV sex from the beginning, able to orgasm fairly easily from penetration alone, etc) is worlds apart from yours. But! I totally agree with you. People are are different and I think it's best to keep that in mind, always. Ironically, if I had've instead absorbed the "romance novel"/ladyporn info of what the average woman likes I would have felt a LOT weirder about myself. Instead I encountered guys who had likely been taught by porn that women were like me - and thus I never felt like my sexuality was unusual. (Except the intensity level). Obviously the opposite is true for most women. The answer is to make sure both men and women understand how diverse sexuality is - or at least understand THAT it is diverse.
The idea that someone could go that far into their adulthood without having any curiousity about their sexuality (enough to google an anatomical picture and/or get out a mirror) concerns me. But (and I can only speak for myself) it's not about judging those people. It's about wondering why it's so commonplace. If I said something like "20% of people who grow up in X place are illiterate, I'm shocked". It's not about being down on someone because they're at a disadvantage or judging them, everyone who knows how to read is literate because the circumstances were right for them.
And I do believe literacy is more of an accurate analogy (for understanding one's own basic anatomy) than publishing a book. Don't you? Publishing a book is an elite skill in a specific area. Being able to read and write coherently is a basic skill - when it is sorely lacking in a notable chunk of the population, it's reasonable to be concerned.*
That being said, I'll try to make it clearer in the future that I don't judge people who wait that long.
*People who are asexual are a horse of a different colour.
Has it occurred to you that the way my body works might have made me feel like a freak at times, and it helps me to talk about myself on the internet? Now you know, and knowing is half the battle.
I actually chose my book publishing analogy deliberately, and think it is apt, because to a lot of women, especially very young ones, the ability to orgasm at will and to feel comfortable with your own body and its sexual response IS an elite experience not everyone can achieve, and it does no good whatsoever to have others make announcements of stunned disbelief that you can't do something--NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU'D LIKE TO--that they take so for granted.
You compare a level of sexual knowledge with basic literacy, and certainly that's a goal. But neither you nor me nor any of the rest of us know the specific obstacles that any individual faces and the assumptions that people are making are insulting. For example, you say @193: "The idea that someone could go that far into their adulthood without having any curiousity about their sexuality (enough to google an anatomical picture and/or get out a mirror) concerns me." But how do you know that a woman who can't find her own clit has no curiosity? How do you know she hasn't googled an anatomical picture? Speaking for myself, who came of age in the era before the Internet, I had seen diagrams, but most of my clitoral tissue is internal until I am incredibly aroused, which I wasn't able to do for myself at 14 or even 17 (I find that I put a high premium on linguistic and psychological cues, and I didn't even know what turned me on at that age), and so what I saw when I took a mirror out wasn't the same thing as what the diagram shows. I was literally unable to locate my clitoris, though believe me, I was plenty curious, and did the 1970s-era equivalent of googling.
And that's just my experience. There are girls whose backgrounds inhibit them from acting on their curiosity, because they feel a sense of shame at having those feelings. There are girls who don't have access to the kind of private exploration necessary to conduct that kind of research.
What I would like is for those women whose bodies conformed to what gets presented as "normal," or who orgasmed easily at the first attempt, or for whom feedback from potential sexual partners was positive at an early age, to be grateful for their good fortune, rather than to make sweeping statements guaranteed to send the 16-year-old Savage Love reader who hasn't that kind of positive experience FOR WHATEVER REASON into a spiral of shame or self-doubt. @194, TheLastComment says that she also felt like a freak at times; it would be nice, therefore, for her not to say that she is disinclined to "write a PSA about diversity" on all her posts. But she needn't write a PSA about diversity; all she needs to do is NOT say: "I couldn't help but respond less than tactfully, something like "HOW could you now know that?!"
Maybe all of you could just say, "Boy am I lucky," and acknowledge that your experience is no more normal than mine was. Or even that there is no such thing as "normal."
God only knows what the "clit" is, and how far down it goes. My clit isn't particularly interesting to me unless my brain is already halfway to orgasm. So it would be pointless to ask me why I hadn't started masturbating earlier... Until I learned that other people thought it felt good, I didn't see any more point to rubbing that part of my anatomy than rubbing my inner knee. Does that help explain matters at all?
I don't really get what is wrong with what I wrote here. I admitted I was not tactful, my reaction to the person was a knee-jerk, stupid reaction. I thought saying I am not tactful was an indication that I disapprove of my own behavior... guess I was wrong.
I never said anything about normality or luckiness. That is all stuff that you projected onto my post, so don't tell me I said something wrong about what is normal.
I could argue that those of you who did not experience arousal in your teens are the lucky ones. You didn't feel things you felt weird about discussing. I'm not some kind of evil privileged oppressor because my experience was different than yours.
I guarantee you I would have found my clit without the internet. I can feel it without groping for it, it often reminds me that it is there. Women experience erections also, and I can feel that.
I'm sorry, TheLastComment. I did to you what I accused others of doing: projected my attitude that you must be lucky onto you.
My wish is for all of us to recognize that there is no "normal," and for all of us to recognize that at times, many, if not most young people have felt like freaks. I apologize for not empathizing with what have been a very confusing adolescence.
"As an adult, I more often masturbate as a tool to get to sleep easily than because I feel a drive to orgasm for its own sake."
I told my wife that I am always available to help you go to sleep. Whatever you want babe, a quickie, cuddling, anything. And even if I'm asleep, wake me up. She's happy, even if the anything is nothing at all.
There was also Changing Bodies Changing Lives for teenagers. I'd recommend it, though I'm sure lots of it is dated.
Back to the original question. I've seen some number of comments from women who say that they wouldn't have minded a dildo for a gift when they were 14. (That surprised me. I learn something new every day.) But is there really anyone who got a dildo and/or vibrator who says it was better than a book with the general hint that such things are available?
I'm still stuck on the idea that there can be any gift given without the implication that it's to be used. If I give a friend a dress in her size, I'm suggesting that she'd look good in it and she should wear it. I'm not just making a general suggestion about wearing clothes. If she normally wears burlap sacks and I give her something sparkly and revealing, you can't escape the message that I'm telling her to wear something sparkly and revealing.
If I give you food, I want you to eat it. If I give you a book, I want you to read it. I realize you might not hang the picture I give you up in your living room, but I want you to consider doing so. It's not just for you to have in case you grow into the desire to hang it up some day.
How could a 14 year old get a dildo and vibrator and not think that her aunt was thinking that she ought to try them?
1. Literacy is an elite skill in some parts of the world. My point is, the goal of making literacy the norm is a reasonable goal (it's quite common in societies that are conducive to that goal) whereas making the majority of the population published authors is somewhat absurd (in my mind).
2. There are MANY reasons why a woman would not be familiar with her own body - societally induced shame being a major one. Just like horrible educational systems, banning girls from going to school, extreme poverty, etc are reasons why literacy rates are low in some parts of the world. My point was, most of these reasons aren't good things.
3. Why are you assuming I don't feel lucky? Of course I do. I thought my post quite heavily suggested that. I also feel lucky to have access to clean water, education, healthcare, etc. Me suggesting that these things should be as universal as possible does not mean I don't think I'm lucky.
4. Finally, I tried to look, but did I ever characterize myself as "normal"? I didn't use the word lucky but I thought it was heavily implied that I was lucky I engaged in my 14 year old sexuality with males rather than with female-geared media because I didn't feel like I was weird (but likely would have otherwise). I think that heavily implies:
a. I dodged a 'women like x, y and z, and I don't. what the fucking fuck??' bullet.
b. I'm NOT the norm since my preferences are the opposite of 80% of women.
Finally, thank you to TheLastComment. I agree that I find it disturbing that people are implying that it's all rainbows and roses being a highly sexual teenage girl. It isn't. I had never heard the word "slut shaming" until a year or two ago, but I lived that shit in highschool. I put myself in extremely risky situations in pursuit of sexual gratification. If I'm lucky, it's lucky that nothing tragic ever happened to me. I could just as easily say "how lucky for you to not have another incessant need to meet at your own peril".
@204 "I could just as easily say "how lucky for you to not have another incessant need to meet at your own peril."
Sure - that seems reasonable. Each adolescence has its own difficulties, but, yeah, I'm not unhappy that I was a slow starter sexually. (Though it's probably correlated with being less able to orgasm, so on balance one may be happier in life with a more responsive body. Hard to say...)
All I'm trying to say is that if you don't know much about a particular teen girl's sexuality, then you can't assume dildos and vibes will be well received.