Savage Love

Busted

Comments

1
First?
2
My life is complete, I got the first comment. Anyways, I do really wonder how the rich guy's wife would react if she found out about this. Is it worth the risk of her seeking revenge or causing trouble?
3
Though it is written to describe a lot of people, I think I know the actual Polyamorous Polymath. If that's the case, here is my suggestion: start with very small requests.
4
Great advice on the babysitter problem.. The babysitter is the top of the taboo list in a family atmosphere.. At first i thought you would tell her to run screaming from him, but instead forced her to ask herself if she liked it too.. Clearly she does. Smells of affair, I'm guessing...
5
Great advice on the babysitter problem. The babysitter is the top of the taboo list in a family atmosphere. At first i thought you would tell her to run screaming from him, but instead forced her to ask herself if she liked it too. Clearly she does. Smells of affair, I'm guessing.

6
Though it is written to describe a lot of people, I'm fairly certain I know the actual Polyamorous Polymath. If this is the case, here is my advice:

Start with small requests. You need her to understand that you will strive to be just as physically and emotionally intimate even while living more in line with what you would like. Heck, you can even phrase it as if you'll probably get turned off by it after an experience or two. Be flexible to whatever amount of involvement she would prefer. Research nearby swingers clubs, where there is no obligation to partake. If she is still unwilling to entertain the smallest of requests, then there are some other major issues besides sexual preference that you need to work on.

Considering how much and how long you've sacrificed for her happiness, the very least she can do for you is give you a chance to try to find satisfaction. Do the best you can to generally get your needs met before you make any life altering decisions (i.e. kids).

BTW, I want the Polyamorous Polymath to contact me sometime.
7
Huh, somehow it posted the first part of my advice earlier. Not sure if I care if it gets deleted.
8
These labels need to stop. WTF is a "poly" man? Dan covered in detail that ALL men want to fuck other women. While I give PP credit for telling his girlfriend up front he doesn't want to be exclusive, declaring himself poly doesn't make him a special snowflake.
9
ball busting
Sound advice, I suppose, but as a practical matter, once a guy has been kicked in the nuts a half dozen times, how is he going to take things any further? I can't imagine getting a hard on under those circumstances, let alone masturbating.

Also, keep in mind that having the sexual component remain unspoken may be part of the deal for this guy. If you aren't the pushover type, and you've mentally prepared yourself for the possibility he may ask for more, seems like you could wait to set the boundary when the time comes, if it ever does.
10
@6 I'm confused. Polymath's girlfriend made it clear that she's not poly and that Polymath is going to have to be monogamous if he wants a relationship with her.

I don't think taking her to a swingers club is going to change her mind. She's stated what she wants and now Polymath has to decide if he can live with that.
11
@10 Contingent on Polymath being who I think he is, his wife hasn't actually realistically considered an open relationship and has very limited sex/dating experience. Attending a swinger's club just for shits and giggles would at the very least demonstrate to her how committed couples can appreciate extramarital sex. We shouldn't necessarily assume that everyone who draws a line about their acceptable number of sex partners are actually making an informed decision and that they aren't ever going to change.
12
Despite her signature saying that she will kick balls for money, my question for WKBFM is: Do you want to be a sex worker? I'm getting the feeling that the answer is no, but say I'm wrong, and she does, my next question is: Is $150 or $250 the going rate for the type of sex work this guy is asking? Again, I could be wrong, but I'm guessing it's much higher.

Next question is what other considerations are there for doing this sort of sex work. For one, the creep has asked her not to tell his wife, but I imagine there's a code of ethics that sex workers have as regards discretion and secrecy.

I also wonder about liability. Let's say she hurts him, wounds him, 9-1-1 phone call time. Let's say that at the emergency room, he chooses not to tell the EMTs how he got his injuries and makes up a story about how she attacked him. What protection does WKBFM have that she won't land in jail? $150 won't go far when no one believes her (outlandish) (but true) story and she needs a lawyer.
13
And now I've gotten confirmation that this is not my 30 year old straight male friend. It's his situation to a T, though. Weird! I hope some of what I said is helpful, though- it's not worth giving up until you've actually tried.
14
Pragmat, if your acquaintance is married and PP notably did not mention having married this woman he's recently fallen for, I think all you have is a problem that afflicts more than one couple out there. (He wants to see other people, she wants to be monogamous--I'm guessing one couple in each state at the very minimum.) The letter sounds like they are discussing whether to break up or move to a higher level of seriousness/commitment, not how to negotiate this difference in critical sexual preferences after having gotten married.

So based on PP's actual letter: Sometimes one person is into A and one person is turned off by A and there is no squishy kinda A middle ground. Like kids or not kids, or living in Omaha or Tahiti. When this happens you either round up (I can live with/without sadism play, or diapers, or thirds, if it means I get this person) or decide there is no happy-enough compromise and break up.

15
"We shouldn't necessarily assume that everyone who draws a line about their acceptable number of sex partners are actually making an informed decision and that they aren't ever going to change."

Man would this drive me nuts in a partner.

Those who've described eventually getting into things they didn't think they would like had a partner who rounded up and put no pressure on them. "I'd like this but I like you more; if you ever feel okay exploring it a little let me know but it's off the table until that time. Ball in your court."
16
On reflection, that "not making an informed decision when you disagree with what I want" is not getting any better. There's a profound lack of respect for your partner's agency and decisions that I think kills the relationship more solidly than whatever topic you are disagreeing on.

People do change their minds. About wanting children, as an obvious one. That doesn't mean you marry someone who is on the opposite side of you and assume that with the proper exposure to how annoying/adorable children are, they shall make the better informed decision to come around to what you want. You talk about it, figure out if you can compromise, and if you can't you break up before marrying.

If someone tells you monogamy is important, that they do not want kids, that they must live in or near a city which supports at least one decent bookstore, and that they are absolutely not into even trying pretend-necrophilia kink, you need to take them at their word.
17
This 22 year old sounds really naive for her age, although I'm guessing it's denial and not naivete. She had to at least have some clue that what she was doing was sex work. It's not that hard to run into guys like that when you're attractive and young. A word of warning: she should think about what she really wants, b/c it's not going to stop at one proposition. I pulled away from the party scene after being "introduced" to guys like that who paid me for clothed sex work where I didn't have to touch them sexually. Basically, she's at the beginner's level to becoming a high-paid prostitute. I chose not to go that path after being paid $500. to show my tits while some rich guy jerked it. I realized at that point that sooner or later, if I stayed in that world, some sleazy guy in a very expensive suit would eventually give me the right amount of money. I understood that $500 to show my tits for 15 minutes while a stranger got off would become an offer of $1500 or more to do a whole lot more than a strip tease. I wasn't a naive 19 year old, so I never gave myself the credit for being strong enough to draw a line. I knew for sure that if I stayed around those people, eventually the right dollar amount would be offered. So the question isn't really about $150 of chump change. The question she should ask herself is this: when a wealthy man offers you several thousand dollars to have sex, will she be able to resist that offer? Will she be able to walk away from the money that will be offered from a man she would probably have sex with for free? Her client(s) would most likely be dressed nicely, well-mannered, wealthy and possibly even good looking. These guys aren't just going to ask for wrestling- eventually someone is going to ask for sex in exchange for a lot of money.
18
The last thing we need is people who don't want to commit to one vagina claiming themselves to be as much a separate sexual orientation as being gay or lesbian. Because you know originalist Mormons are dying to highjack marriage equality.
19
On kicking balls for money: If that guy were a serious martial artist he would get a training partner who was his match in weight and skill. Not a woman, not a former babysitter.

I'd like to know, though, if she actually learned any usable self-defense techniques out of this.

Otherwise... yes, it's definitely sex work, and I would charge minimum $250 an hour, with a written contract. There's something about the narrative that's disturbing to me, though - I can imagine it escalating in ways the woman might not like. I don't think a college-age woman is really a match for this guy in terms of negotiations, which is why he's not seeking out a real pro who would hold him accountable, responsible, etc.
20
IPJ's right. It's quite insulting to think that your partner isn't into something just because you haven't introduced it correctly yet. At some point, people know who they are and what they want out of their lives and their relationships and to try and sway them from a major conviction (like something as major as monogamy vs. polyamory) will hurt the both of you.

And I also agree that putting your partner first--the one you honestly choose to stand by, honor, and devote yourself to, not in the hopes that one day they will fundamentally change--lends itself to more rewards and surprises than if you are openly nudging them in any direction.
21
Oh man. As a former nanny & babysitter, let me just stop for a moment & thank the fates that none of my previous employers asked me for an arrangement like WKBFM's employer.

WKBFM: don't do it. Nothing against honest sex work, but this feels wrong. Not the don't tell his wife, part, even - the fact that your former boss in a domestic environment - so, someone who held power over you AND had familiarity with you on a daily basis - has already kinda groped you under the guise of self-defense lessons. I think he's playing a game with you, trying to see how far you'll go. It won't stop here.

OR, if you wanna do it, for your own reasons, good luck. Charge way more, and get something *in writing* that you make him sign, that he asked you to do this to him. He won't sign? Then DON'T go through with this. It'd be scant protection if something goes wrong but it's better than nothing. & though flimsy, it might make him think twice about pinning anything on you if something goes wrong (as Crinoline, who I'm a fan of, suggests, above @12.) Also he might back off after such a request, as then you'd have some power over *him*.

..and if all of this is giving you some kinda thrill, please try to find some actual sex workers or a professional domme so you can get a better idea of what you could be getting yourself into. Y'know, the kinda people your former employer would be talking to if messing w/ his former babysitter wasn't part of his fun-n-games.
22
Spot on. I wish being poly was a sexual orientation. And that there was an assurance of an ample supply of partners for men of such an orientation. But I don't believe that there is. Can we all admit now too that it is easier for a woman to be poly than a man?
23
PP - Please shake hands and part ways with your girlfriend so you can both find sexual satisfaction on the terms you each need. You can't compromise this. If you try, you will bitch about this sullenly for years until you get busted seeking what you know right now you need. Maybe one of you will change, but it's not going to be worth the five or ten years you'll need to find out.

Come on everyone, this is kind of obvious. Why encourage him?
24
WKBFM: As Dan suggested, insist that this rich asshole remain upfront with you. He's already manipulating you for sex work with his money, no matter what he offers! Keep your clothes on, stick to your guns, and wear spiked boots to his house if it's really what YOU want.

@19 hazmat: I agree. WKBFM's situation creeps me out, too. She's 22; he's older, married with children, and could have hired a dominatrix (Mistress Matisse, et. al.) to satisfy his ball-kicking desires. If he's already "offering" this poor college kid $150 to kick his nuts, what would he make her do later on for $5,000?
25
@21 Eva Hopkins: You summed up WKBFM's situation much better than I did!

WKBFM: Get something in writing from this guy before you go any further!
Pure and simple: regardless of your prior relationship as a babysitter, he's screwing with you to see how far he and his money can go. If he won't sign, tell him no deal.
@12 Crinoline: HOW on Earth did I NOT see your spot on response to WKBFM's letter?!? Spot on!!!
26
@6: I'll bet you do! You sound like the one PP wants to get all poly with.
27
It's easier in some ways being a poly woman and some ways not. I am married to my poly husband and it's frakking hard to find polys near us - there's not an open or visible community where we live - so although we're poly, right now we don't act like it because we can't find potential partners that actually are poly and not afraid to admit it.
28
The whole "he pays you $150 if he gives up, you pay him $20 if you give up" arrangement is a total set-up. He is suckering you into getting used to having some skin in the game. Once he has you to the point where you routinely come back from "Tired yet?" with "Hell, no!" and renewed vigor -- because there is no way you are going to let him deny you that $150, let alone owe him anything, after working that hard for it -- he is going to start escalating, and frame you backing off from the escalation as you giving up and owing him. It's going to be hard as hell to resist that $150 once you are well used to taking the bait when provoked.

If that isn't enough to dissuade you, I suggest a written contract with some very specific rules:
a) you are working hard at his behest, and you will be paid the full amount for your services, period.
b) hard boundaries (clothes on, no sexual banter, no touching of specific places, etc.)that if he violates them you get triple pay and the session ends immediately.

I dislike Dan's formulation about acknowledging that you know it's for all intents sex work, and you want that acknowledged by him before you are willing to participate. That approach practically invites escalation. With the right contract, you can make it be absolutely not about sex work -- well, make it be about the ball kicking and absolutely nothing else, at least -- in a way that contractually precludes any sort of escalating.
29
Re: Poly

Finally we have 2 adults openly and honestly communicating their needs & wants to each other. Can't ask for a better situation.

The guy is obviously not happy. He already knows the answer to his own question but for some reason is seeking out 3rd party advices to make the call on his personal coin toss. (not good)

Man up and move on so you are both free to equally pursue lifestyle preference.
30
There's a problem with WKBFM demanding a written contract. Let's say Creep (I've named her workout partner/employer) signs it. Let's say he violates the contract. Now what? Does she get a lawyer and sue in state court? Chances are they live in a state where prostitution is illegal, so the contract is invalid anyway-- and Creep, being an older wealthy professional guy, knows this. Besides, 22 year old babysitter/students aren't going to know how to get a lawyer even for conventional work contracts, and Creep knows that too. The most a contract would be good for is blackmail (something I considered, then disregarded, recommending). Again, all Creep has to do is laugh it off and say she's the deranged one.

I started in 12 by saying that I got the sense that WKBFM didn't want to be a sex worker but that there were things she should think about if she did. I'm going to change direction by advising WKBFM not become a sex worker under any circumstances and definitely not with creeps like CREEP as her clients. (How much more than "I found it a bit unsettling" do you need to let you know that this isn't for you?)

(Thanks, Eva.)
31
I disagree that poly is never an orientation, because I know people (only two of them, one man and one woman) who are simply, naturally monogamous-- genuinely don't feel and can't sustain an attraction to more than one person at once. Similarly, I know some people who are simply, naturally poly-- fall in love equally with multiple people and simply don't feel jealousy when their partners have other partners. I think the vast majority of us do not fall into either of these categories, but somewhere in the middle, and for the majority of us, Dan's advice-- look at this as behavior, not orientation-- makes sense. But not for everyone.
32
Busted - If you do move forward with Dan's suggestions, put nothing in writting - do not e-mail, text, ect. any part of your agreement. Do it in person if you can, or on the phone. Don't give this creep something that he can print out. Also, payment up front.
33
The first letter definitely sounds like a movie pitch, with Taylor Swift & Sam Rockwell.
34
GREAT response on the "poly" question. It's not an identity, people. It's a preference. There's nothing wrong with it and you have every right to it, but It's something you have a taste for, like sherry or sardines. It may go away, it may not. Give the "Born This Way" arguments a rest. By the time you're old enough to want sexual love in relationship, there isn't much "natural" about how you've constructed what it should look like. Your psychological preparation and emotional needs are calling the shots, are always developing, and will continue to do so till the day you die.
35
Wow, Dan. I am absolutely appalled at today's column. I have been reading you for over ten years and really respect and admire your work, but you are completely out of touch and out of line with this one. Being poly absolutely can be a sexual identity rather than a sexual behavior. Many people do identify that way. Remember when homosexuality was considered a choice and a behavior rather than an identity? Don't be the next generation of bigot, Dan. If you can respect and believe kinksters, trans people, gay people and bi people when they say "this is who I am," have the decency to respect and believe poly and mono people who say the same.
36
On the babysitter issue, I agree that the greatest danger is that she injures him during their play, he changes his mind and says she assaulted him. The best way to mitigate this might be a contract, but it's very unlikely that he will sign. Another option is to covertly record a conversation (with a smartphone or other device) so in the event things go sour, you have proof that it was at his bequest.

I don't think having an overt discussion "this is sex work!" does much for either party in this scenario. But yes, babysitter should definitely charge more ($300/hour), with no strings (that he gives up before she does, etc..) Babysitter hasn't been weirded out by this before, so if she can make some good money doing something that doesn't bother her significantly, why not?
37
A shame that Dan only recommends breaking up and moving on for poly if poly can't be mono and mono can't be poly. People do change / come to arrangements / etc. when various things don't align.

They've talked about it, so it's not hiding secrets, and if the "true love" feeling is mutual, how about seeing how things go and muddling through it for at least a bit, if there is much happiness on other fronts for both?
38
Wrong, Dan. For some of us, being polyamorous IS a sexual orientation. Just because YOU don't experience it that way doesn't mean that other people can't.

I suppose this will be a civil rights issue in 2050. :-)

39
@34: I experience gender as a preference, not an identity. Gender is a set of arbitrary, learned rules that I follow because it was made clear to me that not doing so would result in a world of pain. Does it follow that other people can't experience gender as an identity?

Out of curiousity, if I said that I identify as a nerd (as it happens, I do) would you consider that a valid thing I could identify as, or just a preference?
40
Babysitter: This is not a contest, he's asking for a contract that you will dominate him to his satisfaction. If you don't, not only is his session free, but you pay *him*. That is epic topping from the bottom, and something that no pro would agree to.
41
@37: Given that she insisted that they be monogamous even when they were supposedly “friends with benefits”(!), and that she’s perfectly happy to end the relationship if she doesn’t get what she wants, I’m guessing that he’s significantly more “in love” than she is, and he’s not in any position to negotiate anything.
42
What on earth makes you think you're in a position to dictate what counts as an identity and what can't? I'm orientationally polyamorous, period, and I shouldn't have to justify that. Sure, I make the choice to be in a polyamorous relationship, but it's equally true to say that YOU are choosing to be in a gay relationship. I choose it because otherwise I would be miserable and feel like I were living a lie.
43
I agree with freshnycman that there's no need for an overt "this is sex work!" talk.

In fact, I think that explicitly labeling it sex worker will make him more likely to push for more, rather than less likely: If she says, "This is sex work, and I'm okay with doing sex work," he may label her a slut. If she doesn't say that, she can still say, "Okay, here's the bargain: I'll kick you for $200. No strings attached, I get the money upfront with no other conditions, or I don't do it." That way, she can get her money, draw hard lines in the sand, and still not let on explicitly that she's doing sex work.

His desire to pretend he's not paying for sex will keep him from pushing for more. If you don't let him pretend, he doesn't have a lot of motivation to NOT push for all the sex work he can get. And if he decides she's a "slut," he may think he should get a lot more than he is getting...
44
It is possible for a monogamous person and a poly person to have a successful relationship (more on that later), but not if it's built on the idea that one person will change.

@39: Identity and orientation are two different things, though they generally overlap. I think anyone who considers themselves poly is "identifying" as poly since they are using that word to describe themselves. The question is whether it's an orientation in the same way that gay, straight or bi is. I personally think it muddies the waters to call it an orientation, even though it can most certainly be an identity. To use your nerd example, identifying as a nerd is valid, but I would raise an eyebrow if you claimed nerd was an orientation you were born with.

I have to agree with post 14 and heavily disagree with 6. Even if poly were an orientation, it's just silly talk to encourage pursuing a relationship based on the idea that someone else would change. Hell, it's even MORE ridiculous if it's considered an orientation. That would mean being monogamous was an orientation as well, which would make this whole situation akin to suggesting a straight man with a crush on a lesbian just needs to introduce the idea of loving penis to her slowly. But oh wait, some people DO suggest that. :p

This woman has made it clear that she's monogamous, and he's made it clear that he's poly. That is GREAT and more people need to do that in relationships. But people are often reluctant to act on the clear consequence of that kind of honesty - if a compromise cannot be reached that works for both, that means that you are NOT compatable. Be mature and break up, rather than basing a relationship on an emotional lie until it's forced to end in hurt (cheating) or you've done something dumb like get married and have kids with this basic incompatability hovering over your head.

I mentioned in the beginning that it IS possible for a mono/poly pairing to work, but it is 100% dependent on the psychology of the people involved. I know this is true because I am monogamous and my partner is poly, and we've been together for 12 years. What makes us work is that he respects what rules I do have (which are minor), and I really don't feel threatened by other partners because I know I fuck him the best and he lives with me. Rules help, but both partners have to be mature and comfortable about them, not throw a hissy fit about their freedom being impeded OR create rules too strict to realistically work. Last but not least, as a gay man, that probably makes my feelings about relationships pretty different from a straight gal who's been sent powerful cultural messages about what love means all her life. Not to say that it couldn't work with straight relationships, but just that there might be a lot more boundaries to cross for a mono woman to get comfortable with a poly man.
45
I don't think liability for injury is really an issue for the babysitter. Think about it: I go to the ER with nadules the size of grapefruits, but no other marks on my body. I then claim my kids' former baby sitter attacked me, a martial arts expert, and I was helpless to defend myself against, oh, 162 kicks to the nuts?

My objection to the contract idea is simply that you've upgraded the sex work you're providing. If money isn't much of an object, then the incremental expansion of the sessions will just become part of what's getting him off. I mean, if $150 is nothing to throw around, then it's unlikely that $450 is going to be a problem ... or $1,000, for that matter. Seems like in this kind of situation, when you fine the behavior you wish to discourage, you are simply putting a price tag on it. As in: Before, I knew there was a boundary I couldn't cross, but now, for an extra three bills, I can flash my cock or grab a breast.
Or whatever. Not particularly articulate this morning.
46
With all due respect, a lot of you are just full of shit about this whole 'polyamory' bullshit.

Say shit for what it is: lavender marriages with unspoken assumption/"permission" that one of the two spouses will be sucking dick and getting it on the low, and it won't be the one who has the perky B cups...

One guy wrote the funniest line I've read all day: Check this out:

"What on earth makes you think you're in a position to dictate what counts as an identity and what can't? I'm orientationally polyamorous, period, and I shouldn't have to justify that. Sure, I make the choice to be in a polyamorous relationship, but it's equally true to say that YOU are choosing to be in a gay relationship. I choose it because otherwise I would be miserable and feel like I were living a lie."

Sunflower: you talk in a circle. Wouldn't it just be easier to say that you're too much of a pussy to come right out and be who you are, but you don't, you won't and, well, that's pretty much the crux of your submitted story?

How many is enough for anyone, anymore? Apparently there is no number on that. Skeeves me out: dishonesty, paranoia, denial, having too much to lose for creating a lifetime structure of lies and half-truths..

I love the isms and the labels: "polyamorous".

I'd rather stay out of the collective genital secretion pool someone I know of has all over them... But one reason to not want to stick around: lack of trust, sadness and angry disgust.

Happy Thanksgiving, Anyway.

:)
47
Moral Of The Story: Falling In Love With A Closet Case = Pitiless Idiocy.

Color Me Pity-Free!

Happy Thanksgiving, Everyone. Mine Shall Be Now.

+~+~+~+~+~+~+~++~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+
48
Has it occurred to anyone else that the rich guy is actually acting out a rape fantasy? Or, he might even be physically preparing himself to attack a victim. I'm wondering, is he a rapist and is this his way of preparing himself for the blows he might receive in this situation?
49
The rich guy is just getting off on the fact that he *can* buy people off, and part of that is indulging himself for getting kicked in his most-probably miniscule nads.

Money talks, bullshit walks. Oh, does it.. Who needs stuff like honesty or having half a heart..

The rich guy sounds like he's raping himself just fine.
50
Spot on DrReality. As a female that is poly I will say that as much as I love someone, I am not strong enough to withstand the eventual boredom and other self esteem issues that come with trying to address such self esteem issues in many men's fragile psyche. I also don't date people who are not poly or ok with poly, even on a friends with bennies type basis. The problem with this guy is he allowed this girl to convince him to already be monogamous, and if he's happy with this so far, I'd say he's fine. But if there has been any discomfort or thought of, "well if she wasn't there, id..." then I'd say it's likely doomed. I'd say Being Poly is part of who I am in that it is something I need for my long term happiness and I don't want to be with anyone who me being happy is going to make them unhappy. To ask someone to change to accept me seems like a heart break ready to happen. I never do things without thinking or communication, but eventually unhappiness is going to start spilling over into other parts of the relationship.
51
@22: Being non-monogamous is not easier for women. Merely getting laid by multiple people may be in some (not all) cases, but for women who want solid, committed primary partnerships & emotionally invested, respectful secondary partners, it's no cakewalk. That's been my experience, anyway.
52
On the unlikely chance she wants to take Self-Defense-Guy up on his offer, she obviously needs to demand money up-front. No so-called "bets."

I really liked the response from #28 @avast2006 . I hadn't thought about it that way, as a set-up, but it makes perfect sense. Although it's hard to imagine someone consciously coming up with that idea for the purposes of manipulation -- definitely sly and evil.

My thinking was the guy proposed the bet just to make her more comfortable, or sort of as a red herring to distract from what was really happening.

Whatever it is, I don't think she should indulge the guy under any circumstances. No matter what she can get him to agree to. Seems at best-case not the kind of road one would want to go down, and at worst-case in an unsafe situation. Whether he's just into ball-busting or not, the guy sounds like a rapist in the making.

I also think she should still call him out on it and make it clear she's not being fooled by him. And then if she's feeling particularly evil she can let his wife know why she's not going back. At least then she'll get some sort of reward for services rendered.

But do not ever go back for another "self-defense lesson" or workout again. Even WKBFM herself put scare-quotes around "self-defense training." What does that tell you?
53
re the 'poly' issue. no. i'm sorry. you can't say 'it's not an identity'. for some it is. that is _exactly_ like saying that being gay is only 'behaviour'(which has been said before) or that ethnicity is only genetics, or that religion is only philosophy not culture.... no-one gets to define _my_ identity for me. that is an arsehole self-entitled position, erasure of anyone who 'doesn't fit my idea of normal'.

for me, being poly is an orientation, far more fundamental than the gender of the people i love. this doesn't simply mean i'm bisexual, but that for me, gender and biology are only preferences... and my experience is that being poly is a shit more than simply 'open relationships' or 'multiple partners'. even if i have only one partner for ten years, i would still be poly. and if that was not accepted, loved and enjoyed by my partner, then how could we be together? it's as fundamental as whether they appreciate / can handle my biological sex. trying to be with a mono person would be like trying to be with a straight person. possible in theory, if both parties were passionate and open-minded, but complicated, unlikely, and probably doomed to be painful.
54
@21: Dan has already said that.

Here's a little trick to negotiating. If you want to say "No", don't say "no". Just ask for terms that the other person will never agree to. They may ask for the terms to change, make a counter-offer and that may eventually work out to a mutual agreement. Or they might just say no. In which case you're done.

Rich creep will probably not accept these new terms. Or if he does, then they will be more beneficial to old babysitter.
55
@12 Thinking the exact same think. If he acknowledges what it is, and she's OK with doing it, ask for $1000 a session, especially if he is a rich asshole (well, I guess that's been determined). I''m not suggesting blackmail, but the fact that he doesn't want his wife to know will make him all the more willing to pony up the dough.
56
*thing. Christ, "Thinking the exact same think!"
57
I think a lot of the confusion lies in that poly is not the same as swinging in the lifestyle; which many people think are the same. The only thing in common is being non-monogamous, beyond that, there are many different behavioral and emotional aspects.

As an experienced lifestyle person, poly people are more like just being single with many partners - the difference is that the poly people tend to be more honest about it than typical single people doing it behind each other's back.
58
It really doesn’t matter whether polyamory is an orientation or not. Here is the relevant part of “Polyamorous Polymath’s” letter:

[…] although a sexually exclusive one, at her insistence, and I agreed to that because […]

That’s it. It doesn’t matter WHY you agreed to this. If you weren’t expecting anything long-term, that’s all the more reason NOT to agree to exclusivity and to just look elsewhere. Same thing with poly being a sexual orientation: if that’s the case, why would you ever agree to a monogamous arrangement?

Given that you agreed to monogamy (for WHATEVER reason), you sound like a manipulative, conniving asshole when you say things like this:

[…] she has asked me to betray my sexual identity by remaining sexually exclusive […]

And this:

I am not asking the same of her: She does not have to sleep with other people to keep me in her life.

Gee, how generous of you.

Be honest: orientation or not, you’re simply trying to have your cake and eat it too. You agreed to exclusivity because you wanted to get laid in the short-term. And now that it's long-term, you are painting yourself as an oppressed victim who is having his identity “betrayed” in order to manipulate her into agreeing to change the arrangement from the one that YOU agreed to into one that she does not want. This is absolute bullshit regardless of whether you’re being honest about the “identity” part.

Some people, like DrReality, are monogamous and do not insist on a partner who is the same (and vice-versa). Others do (and some change their minds one way or the other). You can view these as different subcategories of a monogamous "orientation," or you can view it as evidence that monogamy and polyamory are arrangements that people come to based on (perfectly valid) desires and preferences rather than being an orientation at all. Either way, the conclusion is the same: you should not agree to a monogamous commitment and then decide later that the person holding you to it is being unfair.

You also shouldn’t subscribe to pragmat’s condescending viewpoint that the monogamous person simply isn’t enlightened enough to warm up to the arrangement that you want, and will come around with enough pestering. This, again, is wrong no matter which assumption you make about monogamy/polyamory being a “preference” vs an “orientation.”

As a monogamish person, I make sure to date others who are either monogamish also, or who are cool with me being so. If someone I’m dating changes their mind, that’s cool, but it’s not something I rely on. Whatever the case, I do NOT try and manipulate people into changing their minds by painting myself as an oppressed victim, and I do not hold the attitude that my non-monogamy is the “correct” arrangement and it’s always their job to accept me before it’s my job to accept them. That’s downright shitty behavior, orientation or not.
59
I think a lot of the confusion lies in that poly is not the same as swinging in the lifestyle; which many people think are the same. The only thing in common is being non-monogamous, beyond that, there are many different behavioral and emotional aspects.

As an experienced lifestyle person, poly people are more like just being single with many partners - the difference is that the poly people tend to be more honest about it than typical single people doing it behind each other's back.
60
Part of me wonders if WKBFM's employer read a book called American Shaolin, which was written by an American guy who, in the 1990s, went to Shaolin Temple in China to study kung fu and Buddhism. One of the former monks he met practiced Iron Crotch kung fu, and was the star exhibit for public Shaolin martial arts demonstrations. His bit was to come out on stage, and then audience members were invited to come up and kick him in the crotch as hard as they could. His morning routines consisted of whacking his balls with a stick for 30 minutes and then tying heavy weights to his dick and walking around a courtyard. Apparently this style of kung fu made him very popular with the ladies - when the author met him, he had just spent the night with a groupie, and the man had at least five kids with five different women.

I mention all this because, if WKBFM's employer read about this (and if he's a longtime martial arts enthusiast, he well may have), maybe he thinks he will eventually score with WKBFM this way.
61
Sorry #11 but I have to agree with #16 and #20. She's not being ignorant because she's not doing what her boyfriend wants.

Yes people do change their minds but sometimes they don't.

If he can't respect her decision to not be poly he shouldn't be with her.
62
Re: Poly, I completely agree with 58. And it sounds like he doesn't have a real understand or respect for her monogamous preferences if he thinks that 'not asking her to have sex with other people' is respecting her boundaries, especially after he's ALREADY agreed to exclusivity with her.
63
PP sounds like mosy every other guy in a committed relationship, he wants to sleep with other women. Get in line PP! Pretty much all my buds feel the same way. By and large we are a society that once in a committed relationship, that's it. The PP action is then referred to as an affair, that if exposed, could bring an end to the committed relationship. It's your choice PP.
64
Re Poly - having had friends who lived in committed, loving Poly relationships for years, and then, as they got older, and one partner left, re-constituted relationships as a committed, loving monogamous things, or started different, monagamous/ish relationships, I'm bemused by the idea that this is the same as being gay or lesbian, or Trans. As others have said, that's a choice, that can change over time, and being gay totally isn't.

And as 58 says, the letter writer, and other commenters want it both ways - claim identity AND want the partner to change her identity. And yeah, he's been really dishonest, and is now being a manipulative arsehole, trying to change the terms of the arrangement that she made very clear from the start.
65
@62 Yeah, the idea that she's asking him to "betray my sexual identity", but he's not doing the same thing made me laugh out loud. His get-out clause that she wouldn't have to sleep with other people, just not mind him sleeping/having relationships with others shows he really doesn't understand what being "monogamous" means to most people...
66
@30 Crinoline re: WKBFM: Bingo!! For the win!!
In retrospect, I didn't fully like my first responses
to WKBFM's letter, either. Your answer was the best said.
67
To everyone suggesting that she "get something in writing". If getting honest about the quid pro quo is what is really important rather than say... Gaining some leverage OVER him to offset what she sold willingly some kind of but kicking contract is an idea that hasnt been thought through at all, and is actually pretty disrespectful, it's bad business plain and simple. Do you want to get into a court battle with a married/kidded/wealthy guy ? Do you believe that this "evidence" will be taken at face value rather than turned against you ? Will admitting to an act of prostitution in open court do anything other than get you charged (possibly with blackmail depending on how muh bread he is willing to sink into protecting his reputation etc. yeah, probably not much)
The obvious has escaped you all, that she take one secret video for insurance purposes and destroys it when the relationship is concluded, it's simple, no permission required and best of all it's not an idiot move. There seems to be a lot of hate for this guy being dishonest, which he was/is, fine. What about hers ? Who works out/swims/kicks the nuts or a married rich dude theve been blindfold wrestling with !? Maybe she was disappointed that she didn't get kicked up into mistress territory, who the hell knows but for damn sure she knows that paid nut play is sex work, that's for sure, why play dumb ?
68
Dan, c'mon, you have a very naive-sounding 23-year-old woman here who does not know when she is being used sexually. Tell her to get away from this guy, not to engage with him further! Who knows what he'll do next! And it DOES put his wife at risk and potentially takes food out of his children's mouths if they end up divorcing over this. WKBFM should have nothing to do with this!!!!
69
"If I cannot commit to that, she does not want to be with me.[...] Can someone who is poly be happy with someone who isn't?"

A poly/mono relationship can work if the people involved care deeply about each other's happiness. She doesn't care about yours as much as you care about hers, is my guess. Your choice is to break up now or break up later.
70
Busted:
Well, since a major weak point in most men does not affect this man, wouldn't it be extremely dangerous to go back? Say he does demand more? What's she gonna do? Kick him in the balls? No, (yes) she's going to do whatever he asked, beyond her comfort zone. Hopefully not too far beyond her comfort zone.
There is such thing as being in the "Wrong place" opposed to the simpler "wrong place at the wrong time". Maybe this is just my paternal instinct wanting to step in... I don't know.
Sure, ask $250.
Tell a sole friend where/when just incase??
71
BABYSITTER: Do NOT bring up the topic of sex work with this guy - he fucking DEFINES CREEPY! LISTEN TO YOURSELF: "He is always pretty anxious to get to the self-defense part ... Often he will blindfold me and then come at me, and I must then wrestle my way out of the situation." I can't fucking believe what I'm reading. There is no possible way this guy ISN'T getting off on this. (Think about it - otherwise, why keep it a secret from the wife?)

Imagine now that you bring up the idea to him that this is sex work and that you are okay with it so long as you're paid ... You have just realized his biggest fantasy for him, and escalated things a hundred fold by inviting him to pressure you to move this directly and immediately into the (even more overt) sexual realm.

Again, listen to yourself - you said you found it all unsettling. You should. This asshole thinks he's duping you. He's certainly using you. This situation is GUARANTEED to escalate to stuff you find even more unsettling if you introduce the idea that you're okay with it. Don't do it!

72

Yes - I would second that. If you do go back to the Creep's house (Don't!! Seriously!!) make sure you tell someone you know and trust about what you two have been up to - you need to protect yourself lest this guy try out any more creep-ass shit out on you.

73
I can tell which side has the weaker argument on the legitimacy of poly as an identity rather than a relationship style: the weaker argument is the one whose proponents feel it necessary to thump their chests and make bellicose declarations regarding the way reality "really is".

True enlightenment is realizing you don't get to impose your categories on other people's lives.

I've got to admit a lot of categories other people use for their identity seem utterly goofy to me: consider the finely graded categories of religious identity from an atheist's perspective for a moment... "I AM a Catholic/Mormon/Buddhist/Galambosian" all sound equally peculiar to my ears. So I'm all for "I really don't get why you think that aspect of what you do is so important as to define what you are." But that's worlds away from the existential claim that "There is REALLY no such thing as a poly identity."
74
I can tell which side has the weaker argument on the question of poly as an identity vs a relationship preference: its the one with the insults and chest-thumping declarations about which somewhat arbitrary human categories are "really real".

Reality constrains our categories, it does not determine them. Enlightenment comes with the realization that we don't get to impose our preferred categories on other people's lives, however weird their categories may seem to us.

If people find it useful to identify as poly, then what exactly is wrong with that? Or given how vituperative and bellicose some of the responses here have been perhaps the question should be, "What's so threatening about that?"
75
I think too many of you are getting hung up on the "ZOMG POLY IS TOTALLY AN ORIENTATION" aspect of things. Dan's advice is still true, though I wouldn't put it quite the way he puts it.

I think a person should stay in a relationship as long as they are happy within it without breaking the rules of that relationship. As long as he's happy in this monogamous relationship, he should stay in it. If he ever comes to a point where he feels that he would be happier trying to find fulfilling poly partners than being in a monogamous relationship with this woman, he should try to convince her to allow him non-monogamy; if that doesn't work, he should break up with her at that point.

I think it's best to break up with someone as soon as you realize the relationship is doomed for some reason. If you're not sure it's doomed and you're still happy, then you shouldn't break up with the person. It's really pretty simple.

As for poly/mono being orientations or not: the way I see it, they're not really. I feel like if a poly person fell in love with a mono person, then they might do the monogamous thing for that person, and vice versa. A gay guy won't have a chance to "betray" his orientation, because he's not going to fall in love with a woman anyway. That said, I think that there are plenty of people who so prefer being poly that they won't bother with monogamous relationships, and there are lots of people who so prefer monogamy that they won't consider non-monogamy in any form. But I still think it's a preference, not an in-born sexual orientation.
76
I may be repeating because I scrolled to the bottom.

He is not polyamorous, he is male.
77
Dan... no.

Some people are poly. If it breaks someone's heart to be monogamous no matter how much they love that partner, they're poly.

I'm not "willing" to be monogamous, because it makes me a miserable excuse for a human being. No matter how much I love someone, it kills my soul a little bit to be in a monogamous relationship when I find it so easy to love others.

It feels like a punch in the stomach to read that you don't think it can be a thing a person is. I haven't been reading your column long though.

People who are polyamorous just take so much shit for it. Like somehow we're all deciding it.

And, for anyone wondering, I'm a woman.
78
And as an aside, it doesn't matter if I was born this way. I am this way now and have been for as long as I've loved. When I was sixteen I dated a boy and girl at the same time. Well, we all dated each other. That was my first loving romantic relationship. I have indeed entered into monogamous relationships, and found myself unable to live that particular lie about myself.
79
@73 - If everything could be considered an orientation/identity the category becomes absurd and meaningless. Someone who really loves anal sex could claim to be an analist - they may really and truly feel they need anal to be sexually and emotionally adjusted.

I love Hockey. It's a borderline obsession. I take Keppra to keep the withdrawal symptoms in check during the lockout. If Mrs. Horton, my American wife, told me that I had to give up hockey as the price of admission, I wouldn't write to a black advice columnist and compare my plight to a black man being asked by his white girlfriend to ignore his cultural heritage.

So I get why Dan, as a gay man, would have an eyeroll at the suggestion that a woman, asking a man she loves to stop sleeping with other women, would rise to the level of asking him to betray his orientation.
80
Busted: When I was a dog walker whenever I met a new client at their house for the introductory visit I had a "wingman". I called my friend, told her the address where I was going and asked her to call if she didn't hear from me in an hour and call the police if I didn't pick up. If I felt at all unsure about a client (whatever bells and flags went off) I told her half an hour. One day I didn't realize my interview went over the time and she called. She wasn't panicked, just checking in, but she knew what to do if I didn't answer. Sensible precautions for a dog walker, absolutely necessary for what you're contemplating.
81
@76, thanks for the joke. You're the reason I stay in the closet. My wife and I have agreed to hide our mono/poly marriage because of reactions like yours.

I don't care that it's an orientation or an identity. I care that it is how I've always been, and spent years ashamed of it until I figured out how to live it. My wife and I rode many storms in that period. Now, she supports my other relationship fully.

That's the message for the letter writer. Get past the NRE. Work hard at communicating honestly, like you're already doing. Get over your screwup of agreeing to monogamy, because the earlier post was right: you made this bed and must deal with the consequences.

It can work out. It took my wife and me a year of trauma, five years of truce, a few more of safety, and now it's an essential element of our marriage. But all that happened long after our first (of several) NRE.

Good luck.
82
From an empirical standpoint, humans are not even a monogamous species. There is a pretty strict correlation between intelligence and how sexual a species is, and we're right at the top of both.

Humans are instinctively built to form both loving and sexual relationships with multiple people, and they do a majority of the time. That's not anecdotal, that's just observation.

Monogamy is still a viable option, however, and even disregarding the recurring failure of the grandiose narratives that have been built to uphold it as our main sexual institution, many people still feel more comfortable pursuing monogamy simply as a factor of the environment in which they live. Most of us aren't born into an environment conducive to polyamory, anyway, so we either find an environment that is or create one, or simply conform.

You know, for someone who raved about "Sex at Dawn" so much, Dan really doesn't really apply some of the better lessons from it and the tertiary works and studies on which it was founded.
83
@76, thanks for the joke. You're the reason I stay in the closet. My wife and I have agreed to hide our mono/poly marriage because of reactions like yours.

I don't care that it's an orientation or an identity. I care that it is how I've always been, and spent years ashamed of it until I figured out how to live it. My wife and I rode many storms in that period. Now, she supports my other relationship fully.

That's the message for the letter writer. Get past the NRE. Work hard at communicating honestly, like you're already doing. Get over your screwup of agreeing to monogamy, because the earlier post was right: you made this bed and must deal with the consequences.

It can work out. It took my wife and me a year of trauma, five years of truce, a few more of safety, and now it's an essential element of our marriage. But all that happened long after our first (of several) NRE.

Good luck.
84
Usually a fan, Dan, but your comments on poly are wrong-headed. If being poly is a "lifestyle choice", then so is being gay or straight; after all, a gay person could "choose" to only have relationships with people of the opposite sex, or I could "choose" to date a guy. But it wouldn't work out well.

Dan, you're telling people that aspects of themselves they consider fundamental are not important, are not real. That's a dick move. Yes, some people occupy a wider space on the spectrum and do have a choice, experiment with poly, and then choose monogamy -- just as some men and women experiment with same-sex relationships and then "choose" to be straight.
85
I am poly by preference or orientation, and don't care much about the distinction. My spouse is monogamous. We care deeply about each other's happiness, so we talked for most of our first yeast to find some mutually acceptable ways for me to get needs met. I'd encourage mr. Poly to get very specific about what he needs/wants out of the very big "poly" pool. Perhaps there at some activities that would thrill him and be acceptable to his love. What feelings does he seek from poly experience? Could he get them meet other ways? What is the specific terrain of monogamy for the lady-love? Get specific, avoid the labels, and see if there is something that feels both livable and satisfying to both. Oh, and do your homework about any hidden fears around committing to one person.
86
ball busting
Jesus Christ, the hysteria here is really too much.

First, we have Dan labeling this as "sex work", a term which encompasses anything from modeling shoes for a foot fetishist, to marrying a rich guy you don't love, to blowing strangers in cars off of Aurora Ave. The term is so broad as to be virtually meaningless. But OMG!! Sex work!!!

Then we have @Eva Hopkins accusing the guy of "groping" when LW explicitly says "he never touched me inappropriately".

Then there's @hazmat, @avast2006, @freshnycman crying for a contract, because obviously this guy will rip her off at the first opportunity, as opposed to paying her .075% of his monthly income so she'll keep coming back.

And @VelvetBabe ("If you do go back to the Creep's house (Don't!! Seriously!!) make sure you tell someone you know and trust") seems convinced LW is one visit away from being raped and tortured by a psychopath.

As someone who fits this guy's demographic (no, I don't hit on younger women, including former nannies, let alone hire them to get me off), I think the worst thing this guy is going to do is ask for more. So, she should definitely be prepared for that.

If she's up for it, though, I think @Crinoline, @SilverChimera, and @carnivorous chicken are on the right path - ask for more money. He could probably get a professional to do this for less than $150, but the fact that she's not a professional makes her more valuable. She's someone he knows, is attracted to, and who doesn't have 3 appointments scheduled after his. This is a one-off special arrangement she'd have with him, which is a whole different thing than what he gets from a hooker. No way he'll pay a $1000, but he'll definitely go higher than the $150 he initially offered.

Finally, if LW decides to do this, any mention of "sex work" will either kill the deal, or (as others have pointed out) set his expectations higher. First thing you do when you show up is get the money. Then, just play innocent, and if he crosses your boundaries (which he's less likely to do since you already have his money), freak out at him and leave.
87
how do we find out which film won Hump?
88
seandr: The term "sex work" is SUPPOSED to be broad. If you want to get more specific, then you specify: prostitute, dominatrix, stripper, escort, ball buster, and yes, modeling shoes for a foot fetishist. If not, then "sex work" is the only thing that CAN encompass everything that mixes sexual thrills with financial transaction.

I'm sorry that there exists a big variety of sex work, I guess? Or that people see a need to describe all of it as such?
89
@75 - the equivalent is not a gay guy falling for a woman, it is a gay guy falling for a straight man. there is just... a fundamental problem.
or, possibly more accurate, a het / homo falling for a bi person. it doesn't matter if they are sleeping with others or not, they are still bi. it is still a part of who they are / how they experience and act in the world... their identity.
ditto with poly.
90
WKBFM: PLEASE read Crinoline's response @30.
Do not pass GO with this CREEP. Do not collect
$200. If you need any further persuasion on
avoiding this jerk, reread @30.

We now return to our regularly scheduled threading.
91
How many times is the same person going to post nothing?
92
Ms Sappho - Fair enough, but please follow your own point through, which makes the LW out to be a complete pill, blathering on about how he's being asked to betray his sexual identity. We all know what response is given to a bisexual poster claiming identity-based license against hes partner's wishes. There are certainly quite enough bisexual people who can make the case for bisexual people being as capable of monogamy as anybody else.

But before I visualize the course of a relationship between partner A (bisexual/monogamous) and partner B (bigamous/monosexual), I think I'd rather just bring in a second scale, and regard what I'll call Sexual Partner Orientation as roughly parallel to what I'll call Sexual Number Orientation. That at least lets them both be Identity without being exactly the same sort of identity, which is the best I can do off the top of my head.
93
"He has to admit that this is about sex and he has to agree to honor your conditions:"

This seems like it holds great potential for a criminal statute violation. If not, there is good cause for concern that this sort of activity-for-profit could harm the record of a struggling student. I'm not an expert in this field and so I can't say if this unlicensed "service" is legit.

Although I have no moral bias per se of this $150-per-session transaction, it seems fraught with legal, license, liability waiver, and tax implications in addition to the moral turpitude exposure.
94
86-Seandr-- Let me try to explain where the hysteria is coming from. For a lot of us, merely being put into a situation where we have to negotiate over whether and how we're being manipulated is as creepy as the manipulation itself. Even if the guy doesn't get away with anything, the very fact that he put us in the position of having to be on guard is creepy.

For a not-very-exact comparison, let's say I'm working in a store, catch someone in the act of shoplifting, call him on it and tell him to put the merchandise back. It's not very satisfying to tell myself "well, he didn't get away with stealing so everything's okay." It still bothers me that he wanted to steal and that I have to be vigilant in the future. I probably wouldn't get very far with the criminal justice system if I complained to the police that the shoplifter wanted to steal (but didn't), but it would bother me all the same. It would bother me that I know the shoplifter would likely try to steal more in the future, and it would bother me that the shoplifter is thinking that since he didn't get away with it he did nothing wrong.

There's something creepy in being thought a prostitute and being forced into negotiations even if they don't go anywhere. (Unless one is a sex worker and initiates looking for clients, but that's not the situation here.) There's something creepy in being encouraged to become a prostitute if that's not the direction one was going in.

I'm coming to the opinion that Mary28 and Velvetbabe are right. WKBFM should just walk away. It's not a matter of fear of torture by a psychopath. It's a matter of getting out of a situation with no good options. Her other options come down to:

-Become a prostitute and negotiate for more money or special terms or contracts. (Dan's suggestion.)

-Be manipulated into acts she feels unsettled about.

-Engage in acts she may or may not feel unsettled about with full knowledge of what's going on.

-Blackmail.

None of those is any good.

I'm even disturbed by WKBFM's nit-picking about whether self-defense play or ball kicking really constitutes a sexual act according to some technical definition. The very fact that she feels unsettled is reason enough to get out of there. There's no "should" in sexual attraction. (I remember all the times I thought I "should" be attracted to someone and tried to overcome my aversions by convincing myself that I was wrong somehow. Listening to my own misgivings was all I should have been doing.)
95
Tsk tsk, Dan. Poor advice for the babysitter. I usually wouldn't take valuable time out of my day to comment on this, but I was more than disappointed in how you handled this one. Did she state in another non printed part of the letter that she has aspirations of becoming a seller of such services? Did you get the impression she was enjoying and just wants your permission to continue? Did you at least suggest on some safety issues and to value her services at least and charge a massive price? There is enough misogynistic messages for females in our world. Your advice could encourage others to see themselves as a commodity, and women already get that message loud and clear from the time they are small. The advice was narrow minded and potentially dangerous for her. "Think twice, send once" next time. We expect more of you.
97
I think people are being a bit harsh in their interpretation of WKBFM (note her acronym: will, not won't, kick balls for money).

She clearly wants to know if there is a sexual component to what her possible future employer or PSE (I prefer that to "CREEP", which I think is way overblown for the circumstances). Dan is quite right in saying there is. Maybe PSE isn't quite sure of it yet, maybe he's in denial, or maybe he just doesn't want to say it out loud for fear of what might happen (and, who knows? maybe he does have evil intentions, too...); but the sexual component is so clear that WKBFM should not harbor any doubt about it.

Is she in danger? It doesn't seem so, from what she says. But she is in a non-sincere zone right now, in which something is being done ("sex work", "giving a friend a hand", whatever) but not really talked about as it really is. I'd say she needs to get out of this zone (and so does her PFE, no matter why he is in there right now).

Does she get something from it? Maybe -- in case, as someone else asked, this has actually helped her develop her self-defense skills. If she feels stronger and more capable to defend herself, then there has been a plus side; if she doesn't, then there hasn't been. This should certainly be taken into account; but I certainly agree that this is not the main reason why her PFE is doing this. (Or else, he would be the one asking for money.)

Discuss things in the open, and make things clear. If WKBFM wants to keep the arrangement, or even ask for more money, that is fine; but the bes way to do these things is to get them out in the open. I suggest that WKBFM read a little more about ballbusting fetishes; the Wikipedia article, albeit short, is at least realistic and neutral in tone, and then there are many sites dedicated to it only a couple of clicks away. Then she should ask herself how comfortable she feels with the reality of this situation, without protective smokescreens, either hers or her PFE's. If it's something she can do, well then, go ahead. If it isn't, then please communicate that to PFE as soon as possible and advise him to find someone else.

(I always wondered, by the way, how ballbusting fetishists can avoid permanent damage; in case there are any here, reading Dan's column: I understand the danger is part of the thrill, but isn't the reality a little off-putting? And I don't mean simply sterility, but actually becoming incapable of any genital sexual activity. Aren't there necessary precautions here, as there are in bondage, to avoid serious problems?)
98
@94(Crinoline), I understand your position very well: given the amount of stories one heers about "the dangers of sex", being in a situation in which one has to be on one's guard raises red flags. It is, indeed, understandable. Whether or not it is also exaggerated (and perhaps socially so, with society's strong interest for what is dangerous in life), is, however, a different question.

There is a lot of shoplifting in the world, and one of the bad consequences is that people who weren't shoplifting are sometimes accused of doing so by people whose bad experience with shoplifters has made them a bit oversensitive. This may be difficult to avoid -- but it is, I think, lamentable.

Especially when, in fact, what is unsettling in the shoplifting scenario is the fact that 'life is dangerous' -- we should always be aware of the possibility of bad things happening. The point is what a reasonable level of awareness, a reasonable level of precaution, actually is -- since there is such a thing as people who are too careful, too afraid. Life is dangeorus, but not "unlivably" so.

You claim that WKBFM has no good option. I don't think so. She can put things out there in the open by getting her PFE (Possible Future Employer) out in the open and discuss her options. And they are not all bad. One of them is, as you put it, becoming a prostitute, which I don't see as a bad option at all: it's a simple economic choice, like being a waitress. She might have problems with the law, but chances are she won't -- since prostitution is usually defined in a way that wouldn't at all affect this kind of work (which is why dominatrices often can work legally despite prositution being illegal).

After all -- assuming that PFE is not a serial killer in disguise -- what exactly are the possible bad consequences for WKBFM? The feeling of "unsettling" may come more from fears that aren't really real ('beware of the Boogeyman!') than in the situation itself, like someone who is afraid of the roller coaster in an amusement park.

The most difficult thing, for me, is that she would have to come to terms with sex work. She will have to decide if it is something for her or not. It's her call to make.
101
ok, look, speaking as a martial artist of several decades, I have to point out that there MAY not be a sexual component here. And I reject Dan's answer that there are "no nonsexual" components.

The most suspicious part is that he offered to pay. That, and not wanting to tell the wife about part of it, makes me think that it may have escalated to a sexual component. But as a martial artist, I LIKE to teach. I especially like to teach people, and especially women with whom I have a friendship, to defend themselves. And, it sounds like he waited until he didn't need a babysitter, because beating up the babysitter could look bad. But he may have developed some genuine affection and wanted to teach her to defend herself! I've rolled around with plenty of women in jujitsu, and I've hit and been hit by women in other arts. Even when I've been in a relationship, I don't deny that rolling around on the floor with women is more fun than the hitting part! But if either or both of us is unavailable, I don't hit ON the lady!

It sound to me like this guy could reasonably have just been happy in his marriage and enjoying a young workout partner and a feeling of "community service" - teaching her defense. Then suddenly, he realizes he really likes getting kicked in the nuts. "I wonder," he says to himself, "if I can get her to do that again? That was hot! I'll offer her money!"...

Ok, crossing a line there. That's dishonest. Or, potentially dishonest. There's still a diminishing chance that he just needs to get someone to do this for his newfound training idea... but pretty small chance unless there's more information we're missing.
102
@101, yes, that's a possibility: the guy may not have known that he had a ballbusting fetish, and may have discovered it while helping a friend become more skilled in self-defense arts. But, as you yourself acknowledged, WKBFM's description of the way the situation evolved leaves very little doubt that a sexual component is now present.

He is, after all, paying for this. When have you last paid for helping a friend train her martial art skills with you?

If WKBFM's description is to be trusted, it's not simply that he LIKES to teach, but he rushes to the ball-kicking part of it. Betting on whether or not he can take it does not seem to be part of skill development.

But then again, my point is that this is not per se bad. If he didn't know about this fetish before, this may help explain the apparent tiptoeing around the issue (if not downright lying about it): he might be lying to himself, too. Like a closet gay man who pretends, even to himself, that his deep interest in a friend is only and always simply evidence of how good the friendship is. For his own sake and WKBFM's, he should stop pretending, or lying, to himself (and to her).
103
ok, look, speaking as a martial artist of several decades, I have to point out that there MAY not be a sexual component here. And I reject Dan's answer that there are "no nonsexual" components.

The most suspicious part is that he offered to pay. That, and not wanting to tell the wife about part of it, makes me think that it may have escalated to a sexual component. But as a martial artist, I LIKE to teach. I especially like to teach people, and especially women with whom I have a friendship, to defend themselves. And, it sounds like he waited until he didn't need a babysitter, because beating up the babysitter could look bad. But he may have developed some genuine affection and wanted to teach her to defend herself! I've rolled around with plenty of women in jujitsu, and I've hit and been hit by women in other arts. Even when I've been in a relationship, I don't deny that rolling around on the floor with women is more fun than the hitting part! But if either or both of us is unavailable, I don't hit ON the lady!

It sound to me like this guy could reasonably have just been happy in his marriage and enjoying a young workout partner and a feeling of "community service" - teaching her defense. Then suddenly, he realizes he really likes getting kicked in the nuts. "I wonder," he says to himself, "if I can get her to do that again? That was hot! I'll offer her money!"...

Ok, crossing a line there. That's dishonest. Or, potentially dishonest. There's still a diminishing chance that he just needs to get someone to do this for his newfound training idea... but pretty small chance unless there's more information we're missing.