WOW.

Why are female partners for cuckolds hard to find? You would think this would be appealing to nearly all the masses, male or female. The cuckold's partner gets the benefits of a stable relationship with fun of new sex. Bonus points that your partner gets turned on by your sexual escapades AND you don't have to share your cuckolded partner with others.

What am I missing?

Some people want to do all their crazy, kinky, makes-them-horny stuff with the person they're also emotionally intimate with, or live with, or share life goals and a world view with etc etc.

What you're missing is that different people are different :)

Despite the reputation of the BJ as some kind of gold standard for guys, there are definitely guys who can't come from oral alone. (And, no, it's not just my technique - at least, I hope not.) AT seems perfectly normal to me.

Why are female partners for cuckolds hard to find?

I'm curious...is that really true?

Side note: AT does mention that PIV does it for him because he has more control. Maybe he's just not communicating with his partner enough while she's blowing him.

@2: Not everyone wants sex with people other than their primary emotional partner. Of those who like the idea as an abstract concept, the actual details of making it work with more than one real partner can make it waaaaaaay not worth the emotional and other bother, even if it's pleasant as a fantasy.

A: I would love it if you cheated on me!
A: You cheated on me wrong!
B: Yeah, I think I'll go back to guys who don't like this idea.

And what 3 said.

Okay what?

Since when does oral sex preclude the male from being in control? That is some nonsense.

@ Tim

Som people are just inclined towards monogamy. When you're with the right person, fucking someone else is just a step down - that's why cuckolding wouldn't appeal to me.

It seems the through-line for this SL installment is people getting tripped up by what they're supposed to do/want versus what they want to do/want or are wired to do/want. If your kink involves stepping onto some tumultuous emotional terrain, you should walk your partner through every detail to avoid confusion (or genuine betrayal). This is, after all, a very counter-intuitive exercise. As for the second LW, don't trip about the oral thing- there are so many other ways to get there that are deeply enjoyable. Just because everyone else in the world is clamoring for a certain kind of sex doesn't mean you have to love it.

To AT: If you're serious about wanting to cum from oral, there's an expedient solution. Just stop having vaginal sex and stop masturbating. After a week or two of no orgasms at all, your dick will explode if she breathes on it.

You can also try a variant: have vaginal sex where you aren't allowed to move at all. Tell her she can tease you as much as she wants-- slowing down or stopping when you're getting close, etc. The resultant orgasm should teach your dick that no control can be pretty hot.

I can't wait to read American Savage!! Where is it available?

Thanks for the advice to AT and BABB. I'm definitely a girl who needs a lot of lube!!

Re: CUCK -- No, don't just "give her the benefit of the doubt, too." Sit her down and find out what the fuck she was thinking, then reestablish the rules, more clearly this time.

If you don't, then she's still operating under whatever misconceptions she has about how you want it, and is going to break the rules again -- all unknowing, if giving her the benefit of the doubt is the correct interpretation and she isn't just being a CPOS, but one way or the other it will keep happening. If you don't want it to happen, better make the rules abso- fucking-lutely clear this time around, and make it clear what your response will be if the rules get broken again. E.g., "I WILL kick your ass to the curb, and I WILL take the next incident to mean that's what you want to happen, and there WILL NOT be any more second chances."

You might want to consider introducing the concept of "safeword" to her, and then invoke it right before discussing all this, so she is clear that no, the discussion isn't some sort of roleplay aspect of your kink.

BTW, if you want her to have to ask your permission for every encounter, then what you are doing really isn't cuckolding. Open Relationship, yes (since you both get to fuck around); Hotwife, maybe (since you have eroticized her outside sex); Cuckolding, uh, no. Probably a good idea to stop calling it that.

I'm starting to get a glimmer of a new version of No Exit with a cuckold and a straight-chaser, but can't quite settle on a third.

I lucked into falling in love with a man with a cuckold fetish. Thing is, I had no idea just how very much I'd get into it until I tried it. Cuckolding had never been part of my fantasy life before, and had it been openly requested at the outset from day one, I'm not sure I would have gone for it. But now I feel like I won the goddamn sexual lottery. (:

Also, he's uncut, and I find that makes prolonged hard vaginal intercourse just sooooo much more pleasurable. I used to get quite chafed with past partners after a certain amount of time without lube, and every last one of them was circumcised.

Like I said, lottery. (:

Water based lubes generally suck.... in a bad way. If you don't use condoms, try cocnut oil. That ish is the bomb. Anti-bacterial, anti-fungal, anti-yeast And you can make yummy popcorn with it too.

http://wellnessmama.com/2162/seven-great…

Coconut oil

Actually, I think that CUCK's girlfriend is a keeper for him. Not only is she into his kink, but just as importantly, she's *honest*. She may not be honest with him at the time, but she *is* coming clean. It sounds to me that they just need to re-negotiate their boundaries about when she tells him about what's going on.

I second @18 -- water based lubes often contain parabens and those things burn like a mofo. Then there's the glycerin, which just feeds the fucking yeast.

If you can find a water-based lube that doesn't have either of those things, you may find she finds lube-sex less unpleasant.

But yeah. Fucking water based lubes.... :\

@Tim

I used to feel this way too. Who wouldn't want a free pass?? Until, due to my high libido and his low libido, my husband and I opened our marriage and it became very clear that he is deeply monogamous. Sighhh. I wish he would put himself out there, but it's just not his thing. So I guess we're only partially open. He chooses to remain emotionally and sexually committed to me while I choose to always have a (fully disclosed) lover on the side with whom I can have mind-blowing sex and an emotional connection. It's my own personal version of polyish openness. And it's absolutely natural and necessary for me. Him, not so much. To each his own.

Jo Agape lube is the shit. It's glycerin free so it doesn't cause irritation and it relubes with her own moisture better than any water-based I've seen. Microtears in the vaginal tissues can be the cause of the pain she's feeling, so the relubing of the Agape stops that. Sliquid H2O is paraben and glycerin free but it seems to not last as long as Jo.

Be careful with silicone lube if you're having sex more than three times per week. The silicone isn't absorbed into the body like the water in water-based lubes, so it can sometimes lead to a "build up" of silicone on the vaginal wall that can cause discomfort. Not all women experience that, but it sucks for those that do.

To the advice already given I'd add this: BABB's girlfriend should insist on the use of lube BEFORE she starts getting uncomfortable. Also pull out, do something else (as per Dan's suggestions) and then reapply lube BEFORE it dries out again. Inserting stuff into a vagina that it's not prepared for is a great way to create future sexual hang-ups for the person who owns said vagina. Not to mention actual tearing if you're not careful.

Lube is not something bad or boring and there should be no sense of "failure" for needing to use it, especially if the man is cut and/or large. In fact say after me: Lube is good. Unless you're very below average size-wise, it's practically impossible to use too much.

Exactly what Felicia just said.. I think Dan should have said so as well, because strangely people have all these crazy misunderstandings about lube. That it's an indicator of failure, that you only have to apply it once during a session, that you only use it when she's already feeling pain (THAT'S WAY TOO LATE!!! STOP HAVING SEX AT THAT POINT!). I cannot wrap my head around al off this.. So I repeat fullheartedly after Felicia: Lube is good! Spend some bucks on it as well, it's worth it. (Also: with silicone based lube you actually can have sex in the shower/bathtub/pool, ain't that nice?)

Absolutely

Whoops, sorry for cut off comment.

Absolutely agree with 25 and 27. I ALWAYS have pain during sex without lube with any partner who has an average or above average size cock.

You may have more luck if you start to use your fingers on her pussy for a few minutes before you go in with your cock. Start with 1, then 2 - the idea is to loosen it up slightly.

You may also find certain positions are better for her comfort level. I personally find it almost painless if I'm on top, but doggy style becomes painful after less than 5 minutes (which sucks because it used to be my favourite position.)

My fella and I now tend to fool around with mouths and fingers for a good 20 minutes before attempting vaginal sex, so that he's fairly close to blowing his load anyway. That way penetration doesn't last more than about 5 minutes for me with much less pain as a result. In fact we probably only have vaginal about 1 in 3 times we have sex - the rest we just finish off by oral or manual. (That's still "having sex", you know. Penis in vagina is not the ultimate goal here - the ultimate goal is that we both have a great time.)

BABB, do you have this problem with oral? I'm wondering if you used to use the Death Grip when masturbating (holding your dick too tight) and that makes it harder for you to come during other forms of sex.

Another fella I met with this problem of not coming even after a long period of vaginal, he was a heavy drinker, and it was particularly bad when he was drunk. Often we just used to give up. I think the alcohol probably dulls the sensation or something. So if you're drinking before sex - stop.

And Thanks to 24 for the tip about Agape lube, I'm gonna see if I can get some.

@Felicia

Ummm... no.

Some people produce a lot naturally and adding anything would cross over into "too much" (regardless of size). Speaking personally, I detest lube. Needless mess that adds nothing and actually just creates and unpleasant sensation.

@25 - Agree, as a guy...lube is just...good.

My endurance has improved with age (to put a positive spin on it), and originally I thought this was the best.thing.evah, but after a couple of different partners were like, 'um, aren't you done yet" (bored, dry, or getting sore) I realized that the marathon thing is mostly another porn fantasy.

Natural lubrication is affected by age and arousal and if she's already gotten off and the pounding is boring.
Riffing on last week: introducing lube, particularly if you're a guy, should be done diplomatically so as not to come off as "you're all dry and defective".

So glad my current partner generates copious natural lube and does not leave me feeling like a ten minute session is too short (no pressure any longer to try to hold out longer).

Rules are absolutely essential for CUCK and his girlfriend (current or future). It sounds like he only barely understands his own fetish. Even before I got to Dan's answer, I was confused about why he was also seeking sex outside the relationship if cuckolding is what he's after.

My guess is that since he discovered his kink "accidentally," he hasn't done much research or looked at what others do, just tried to piece it together based on the idea that cheating is hot. Whether or not he wants a poly or open relationship is a question he needs to figure out separately from the cuckolding question. Not only does he need to figure out if he wants to be open or poly or not, he also needs to figure out if he wants whatever open or poly rules to apply to him if he goes in that direction.

It's possible that once he told his GF he was into cuckolding, she did her own research on it and figured he would really like it if she "cheated" without him knowing, and when that's not how it went she felt bad. Or it's possible that once she met the OK cupid guy, she realized she liked him better and he came with less confusion than CUCK. Or she could simply be confused as fuck, as we all clearly are by CUCK's story.

Does anyone know if Dan responds to questions privately? My girlfriend reads this and I wouldn't want her figuring out it's me who is asking him questions.

@33: Why don't you send an email and ask if he'll respond privately? The worst that can happen is he'll ignore it or say no. I'm sure if you request that he not make your letter public, he won't run it; he just may tell you he has a policy against answering privately. No harm done.

CUCK, There are other choices besides "suck it up or break it off." The first one is to talk with your partner--about your feelings, expectations, desires--and listen to what she has to say about her feelings, expectations, desires.

Before you have that talk, and probably as you're having it, and then a few days/weeks later as you process it, and perhaps over the next few months, as you begin to put into practice what you're learning about yourselves and each other, you are bound to discover new feelings, reactions, and desires. You may refine your fantasy or its expectations. So, undoubtedly, will she. Share these revelations with each other. Communicate. Don't blame, shame, accuse, or storm out.

You two are making major changes in a relationship that has lasted for two years--it's bound to be a bit bumpy, especially if the communication about what each of you want or how you define terms or how parameters/rules are set is unclear and not mutually understood and agreed-upon.

You say you love her. She's not your ex. There is no reason to think you can't trust her: she thought that you wanted to be cuckolded, which is what she did, then she reported to you (which is what a cuckold fetishist wants, because if he didn't know about the cuckolding, he couldn't get off to it). You introduced the idea and she went with it--and now you think maybe you can't trust her and need to dump her. That's unfair.

The other thing is, sometimes we think we know what we want, but it's not until we try it that we discover that no, we don't really want it after all. Maybe you really don't want an open relationship. Maybe you want an open relationship that doesn't include cuckolding. Maybe your fantasy is more the hotwife fantasy--in which the man sets up or is in on the woman's extra-relationship sex, perhaps watching, perhaps not, but not particularly humiliated by it. The boyfriend definitely knows about the sex that happens between the other guy and the girlfriend beforehand/during. Of course, now your girlfriend has had a taste of non-monogamy, too. She may quite like having opened up your relationship. Her feelings and interests need to be considered, as well.

Good luck working this all out. It's tricky sometimes, but in the end, good communication skills, knowing what you really want, and the ability to share that with your partner will pay off in many ways far outside the bedroom. Have fun and stay connected.

@BABB: I had the same experience as your girlfriend. She might want to see a Dr. and get checked for a yeast infection. I found that when I have one brewing, I feel exactly the way you described her during intercourse. When we start reaching for the lube too much, that's when I start calling my gyno.

@Dan, Re: AT: I think you can do a lot better with your advice here. I've been on both sides of the story -- I rarely come from oral, and I have a partner who doesn't come from oral. We both like it. The thing is, we both get off on coming in each other's mouths. So it's not about insecurity, it's about we want to make this happen because we want it. The-end.

Your advice of stroking it and then sticking it in her mouth at the point of no return is the solution we've found most satisfying. I've also rubbed my own clit for most of the journey and then let my partner finish me off. Sex isn't just about getting off, you know, there's a lot of emotion involved and that needs to be given its fair share of consideration, too.

Wait, wait, wait.
So BABB's girlfriend "can't last as long" and then after she has an orgasm he just keeps pounding away for another 30 minutes during which she is not aroused?

WTF. I mean I guess maybe she doesn't have more than one orgasm? The real question is, why not?

Pro tip: if after she comes once you continue doing things that turn her on, it is likely that the whole endeavor will be more fun for everyone.

I think that Dan is drawing too fine a distinction between what an act is called and what it is. Here, the rules were broken. If I point to my horse and tell my partner, "don't shoot my cow, this cow, leave it alone", and she puts a bullet in its head it's hardly fair of Dan to say, "but it was never a cow".

He said he was into cuckolding, but within limits. She transgressed those limits. Whether it was an selfishness, or an error as she tried to find where the boundaries were are separate questions. There's really no point in having Savage Love bang on endlessly about the importance of rules and agreements and boundaries as one extends one's sexuality out beyond one partner and then say, "well, if you broke those rules that might be okay". The letter was confusing only in its terminology, not the parameters of the agreement: she had to ask; she didn't. If the ROE aren't clear it is up to both partners to make 'em more clear, not go out, find the best interpretation for one's own benefit and then seek forgiveness after. That's not a relationship that's loophole-finding.

CUCK, if you take one thing away from this thread, take this: be a lot fucking more clear on what you want, and your boundaries especially since your kink involves the violation of a boundary. Until you sort that seeming paradox out you aren't going to be happy and if you aren't sure what you want you make it impossible for your gf to give you what you want, which is hardly fair to her or sensible for you.

@38 (seeker6079): You're right. CUCK says they agreed to rules and she broke those rules. Then, apparently feeling guilty, she confessed. Now CUCK doesn't think he can trust her. It shouldn't just be about terminology, and loophole-finding. In this case, though, CUCK sounds as though he himself is confused as to what he wants or expects. Rather than focus on whether his girlfriend should be excused for breaking whatever rules they'd agreed to or whether he had the right term for what he wants, I think that the couple should forget getting the terminology down, and focus more on how they feel and what they want.

I find it distressing, an example of what Mr. Ven calls "dump culture," that CUCK expresses his only choice now as "suck it up or cut her loose."
They tried something new and it may have opened a Pandora's Box. The girlfriend may be surprised at what happened; clearly she felt guilty about the secrecy and rule-breaking. He seems to be projecting the ex-girlfriend's behavior onto the current girlfriend. These people need to get clearer, individually and as a couple, about what they want. And start from there.

@40 - agreed completely.
I sometimes wonder (but I haven't reached any conclusion) whether dump culture is merely a pendulum swing away from "stay together no matter what" culture, which was so ascendant for so long. Or is it related to the gross impatience and often unrealistic expectations of our current metaculture? I don't know.

Normally I'd consider banging another man without permission the one thing that'd put my lover in the dump category without any question. I think CUCK's gf gets more slack simply because, well, he wanted her to bang another man and I'd imagine that fixing the parameters of that are, um, difficult.

If Almost There's partner strokes the shaft of his penis while fellating him, it should do the trick.

@30, I have to agree with you here, and disagree with Felicia. There IS such a thing as too much lube. It's one of those YMMV situations. Personally, I've never had to use it for vaginal sex, though I'm sure that may change as I get older. I have used it while giving handjobs, and occasionally for masturbation (mostly when I'm in a hurry, lol).
To say that you can't have too much? Well, besides being messy, there are a few positions that, once I've been having sex for awhile are almost impossible because it's too slippery and slipping out happens enough to be more than frustrating.
I do agree that it's ridiculous to act like needing lube is a bad thing, it's not. But acting like everyone should use barrels full of the stuff (which I understand has not specifically been said here, but has damn near been said in previous comments on this subject).

With blowjobs, I wonder about the psychological. If the LW had an upbringing (whether religious or ideological) which told him that blowjobs degrade women, or that they're only doing it to make you happy (but they really hate it) then it may be difficult for a decent person to let go before they're cured of that bad coding in his OS.

Re the lasting-too-long thing. I'm a man on an antidepressant called citalopram. I actually don't need it for depression anymore--long story--but I love it for one of its few side effects: delayed orgasm. I used to have a hair trigger and it deeply affected my sex life. I couldn't last more than a minute, and everyone involved was left frustrated, no matter how much I made her come before the fucking. Now I can go and go on citalopram, and the women I've had sex with haven't been bored, because it's freed me up to be a sensitive, creative lover, and with some timely lube, soreness hasn't been an issue. They come and come again. So two morals to my story: 1) citalopram has saved my sex life (I plan to wean myself off in the hope that it's created a psychological as well as physical shift) 2) regardless of how you gain control over your coming, you have to use that extra time to do more than just pound away at some poor girl's pussy--you gotta be creative and have fun and think about her all the damn time.

Re: BJ. Might be a matter of technique. My guy thought he couldn't orgasm from oral for years. It was just the status quo and I didn't bother him about it. About two years ago, I picked up a book on fellatio from Powells and got educated. It gave me a lot of techniques to try, which emboldened him to give useful feedback. Presto chango, now he loves head and comes like crazy. LW should shop at Powells :-D

@ 17: believe me, your man feels like he won the sexual lottery too. It is one thing to find a partner that is open to expanding beyond the one-man-one-woman paradigm. It is a completely different level of hot to find someone that pursues this type of thing *enthusiasticly*.

"strategic stroke breaks" - sounds like some new moniker for a type of dance music, like EDM. I'm gonna steal it and use it in that context, even though you clearly didn't intend it that way. 'K? ;-)

@42 - I have a difficult time from oral alone and yes, your advice is very good. I've only ever had one partner who could get me there without that.

For what it's worth, I'd take the advice to CUCK in the other direction. His relationship with the earlier girlfriend wasn't working for a number of reasons. One reason had to do with her cheating. Others had to do with things he was doing that he didn't go into. So let's say they weren't right for each other and leave it at that. The question becomes if girlfriend #2 is right for him. To my mind, the stuff about cuckolding and open relationships is secondary to whether they're basically compatible.

So I'd suggest this to CUCK. Go back to your girlfriend and tell her that you weren't clear because you weren't sure yourself and ask her if she'd be willing to redefine the relationship back to what you had originally. That's the one where you're monogamous and engage in all the fantasy kinky play that you want. Make sure you ask her if there's anything that she'd like; ask her for her input for the new/old redefined relationship. Think of it as a computer reboot. You go back to the point where everything was working smoothly and take it from there.

Next, you pay attention to how it's going. You keep communication open. She gets to tell you how it's working for her. Does she want to fuck someone else? Why? Is it something for her, or is it to make you hot? All open communication. Same for you. Are you okay with just the fantasy about being cuckolded, or do you want to go back to her actually doing it? Explore your feelings-- with her.

And while you're doing all this open communication, keep clear of the parallels with that first cheating girlfriend. That was a different situation because THERE WAS MORE WONG THAN JUST THE HOT CHEATING.

@41: I think partly it's that we're wired to prefer binary choices, as a cognitive shortcut; from an evolutionary standpoint, we couldn't stand around for long deciding among multiple options if the two salient ones were "fight" or "flee." So we have a tendency to reduce every problem to two options, like "stay" or "dump", without thinking about other nuances.

For the LW who can't come from oral sex, here's an experiment he could try: he could ask his girlfriend to wake him up one night with a surprise blowjob. Being a bit dozy, he'll also be extremely relaxed. If he finds that he can have an orgasm while relaxed like this, it probably means that there is a psychological block preventing him from orgasm during a fully awake blowjob. He could then work on being more relaxed, less anxious during sex. It might help if his girlfriend takes over as the active partner during intercourse; he should then be a passive recipient of pleasure, learning to feel sexual stimulation without having to guide it with his hand or with thrusting hips.

Ms Crinoline - I am curious as to what specifically about the letter tilts you in the direction of assigning him a clear majority of the blame for the prior relationship. I am quite undecided on that question.

seeker@41: you would dump an otherwise compatible, wonderful, long-term lover, for "banging another man without permission," even if your lover voluntarily confessed within a few days? Wow.

Reminds me of the conversation from last week about lying about porn. By making the consequences of infidelity so severe, you definitely increase the odds of your lover lying to you.

EricaP: I got the impression that seeker was talking about traditional monogamous situations, not the actual LW's situation. It is extremely common to consider a single act of infidelity grounds for dumping someone. At the very least it signals for most a whoa-whoa-whoa, what's going on, big discussion time, maybe counseling -- because it's breaking the terms of the agreement. (And if you're not monogamous, well, seems to me it isn't infidelity.)

"he only barely understands his own fetish" - 32

That is an amazing statement - I have a 'slight-cuckold' kink that involves being told that other men are better in bed than I am and watching my partner indulges with other people – which sounds similar to CUCKs kink. Does this make me a cuck? Am I breaking some rule that say's I have to also be into cross-dressing and creampies? Is it not up to each person to define their own boundaries?
I think CUCK is the victim of a need to come up with a witty signoff name. In his letter (at least the portion we saw)he does not say that he is a cuckold or subscribes to all the entails, but even if he did that does not mean that he wants no input into the activities his partner has – about that, he was very clear.
Perhaps he's feeling that going back two more times and not being honest about it changes it from a sexual fantasy into her getting something she's lacking in the relationship and all the other standard cheating tropes. The fantasy is over.
Now he has the bonus of feeling both betrayed by the cheating and responsible for it because he brought the issue up in the first place. What she did was cheating, plain and simple, the fact that he has a particular kink that he was honest about should not be a factor.

Dan's advice to AD was how I managed to get my husband over them thar hills without any help. (We sort of figured it out as we went along - we didn't have a letter or anything.)

And it was, partially, a control issue as well. Thrust into her mouth a little. You may just like feeling like an "active participant".

54- Mr. Ven--

You are correct that it was just a tilt, not something I'm willing to defend full on. What tilted me in that direction? Only a knowledge that most of us tend to downplay our own faults while magnifying the blame of others. The sort of insight that allows us to take good hard looks at the ways we contribute to the outcomes in our own lives usually comes years later, not when we're writing to Dan. So when a letter writer admits to possibly being a little responsible, I automatically read that as being quite a bit responsible. It's my cynical nature, nothing I can prove.

It's also in the way I swap out variables. I read a letter and start to ask myself what I'd think if one element were changed, what if one part of the letter were greater or smaller or if roles were reversed. It started as a test of my sexism. I'd read a letter written by a straight woman, form an opinion, and ask myself if I'd hold the same opinion if the letter were written by a straight man, a gay man, a lesbian woman. In time, I started applying my test to all parts of the letter. Thus, in the letter above, if I think one thing if CUCK's former girlfriend was responsible for their break-up, do I think something else if CUCK himself contributed more.

For me, the more important variable in CUCK's letter was the open relationship one. I ask myself what I'd think if their base assumption was one of monogamy. I took it from there. How would it change things if CUCK didn't admit to his cuckold fantasy and his girlfriend said she wanted to have sex with someone else out of the blue? I did little thought experiments in that direction and came up with the advice I did in 51.

My wife gives crappy blowjobs, not because of technique but because she's not into it-and the writer helped me see that it's because she won't take contrtol. She wants to do it in the dark, with me lying down. I want her on her knees, servicing me. Sneaking a finger up my ass would do wonders, too.

That I don't feel comfortable telling her this after 15 years of marriage might have something to do with it too, y'think?

Ms Crinoline - I think to some extent LWs are in a difficult position. It's a little like a cross-examination in a divorce case when the question is put about whether one has always acted as a perfect spouse. Say no, and it can be a damaging admission; say yes and appear a self-satisfied idiot (per *Rumpole and the Married Lady*). If a LW admits to a moderate amount of fault, the natural response is to assume a downplay; admit to a lot of fault and be called a monster; deny fault and unleash the sentiment voiced by Ms Erica that there's almost always plenty of blame to go around when one partner cheats.

Here what struck me as interesting were the LW's choices in phrasing. Sticking around too long as an example of not being blameless made me ask myself exactly what he was admitting about which not to be blameless. Very unclear. And his earlier sentence - "My last partner cheated and lied and did some unforgivable things." Interesting indeed, as it inclines one to wonder what on such a scale would be deemed unforgiveable.

We may have stumbled onto part of the great opposite-sexer/same-sexer divide here. The OS crowd always has the possibility of a natural empathy bias, of which my favourite example is provided by Mizz Liz Probert in *Rumpole and Portia* when she explains (to the indecisive, ineffective Claude Erskine Brown) that, when a woman cheats, she is striking a blow against the patriarchy because she resents her partner's dominant male power, so that, when a woman cheats, it's a man's fault. And when a man cheats? it's his fault, of course. Your analysis did NOT remind me of Mizz Liz, whom I'd love to cross-examine on why it's a man's fault when a lesbian cheats (but I am grateful to the young radical barristerette for embodying so much of the erasure of same-sexerity that prevents me from ever being enthusiastic about the coming feminist Utopia). I appreciate your process, which strikes me as basically necessary due diligence for an OS response, particularly to an OS letter. Some SS readers will have a tendency to lean to one side or the other in response to OS letters, but it strikes me as rare for it to be so strong (save perhaps for open misogynists/misandrists). The closest I can come to devising an equivalent might be for someone who presents as exclusively "top" or "bottom" (perhaps for women "butch" or "femme") having a very similarly unmixed natural empathy when reading a SS letter describing a similarly rigid-role relationship.

In this letter, I suspect I may be over-correcting in the LW's favour because I find that very few cuckolds present their cases in a way that inclines me to feel any sympathy for them at all. I much prefer LWs who trigger a dislike that I know to be based on something petty; then I can blast away and enjoy it. But I don't like to push a serious complaint too far.

I probably wouldn't even have put up the earlier post, except that I got annoyed at lunch today. In one of my stepmother's soaps, a woman was asking for clarification about a mixed signal, and the man in the scene with her said she was great and probably just his type, but he would never make a move on ANOTHER MAN'S WIFE (it would have been so hard to write A MARRIED WOMAN instead?). And apparently he was supposed to be one of the admirable characters (I no longer follow soaps, but remember enough still to pick up these things). Hence my really crabby mood all day.

Dan... enough with the hetero sexual issues, please!.
We needed you for gay issues back when few spoke to us; we need you even more now. Please return to your people and let the breeders cry to less fabulous advisors. Your base is not PIV. It is PI (noun).
The answer you wrote last year to the gay teenager about to have anal for the first time was great literature (IMHO), addressing a real person's real fears. Your advice will help him and dozens of scared gay boys. And many silent LGBTs that don't write in. But they do read and remember.
Breeders can get their advice from Cosmo or Dr. Ruth.
BTW... we (even us geezers) read and love you in Palm Springs.

Eirene@56: apologies for being confusing. I knew seeker was discussing a monogamous relationship. I wouldn't have spoken up if he had said "whoa-whoa-whoa, what's going on, big discussion time." All that, sure. Counseling too, yep.

But straight to dumping for a one-time infidelity? And seeker said it was "the one thing" and that there wasn't any question about it. Surely we can all think of worse things... violence, years of secretly stealing, years of hiding their sexual orientation...

I would have thought that any regular reader of Dan's would at least try to reconcile if a beloved partner confesses to a brief infidelity.

@61, how can you say you want your wife to take control, and then act aggrieved that she's doing it her way and not yours?

Ms Erica - Obviously I can't speak for Mr Seeker, but the first thing that comes to mind is the question of vows. For many people, just someone's saying the words Forsaking All Others during a legal ceremony that not everybody construes to be The Most Important Day EVER constitutes absolute and irrevocable power over the vower's interpersonal sex life until death. It really stuns me to see how so many people capable of highly nuanced thinking immediately default into assumptions that any married couple had a religious ceremony which they took seriously and included FAO in the Sacred Vows.

62- Mr. Ven-- I love your summation of The Letter Writer's Dilemma. But take it a step further and wonder about the purpose of writing. Is it to garner natural sympathy from the commenting audience? Look at this week and last where the question is more "who's a CPOS" and not "what's the right thing to do". It's more about telling enough history to make the chain of events evident so the LW has an excuse for actions and emotions, less about solid advice for moving forward in ethical ways that are conducive to practical happiness. The reason CUCK's experience with his last girlfriend is relevant is to explain the origin of his cuckolding fantasy, not to say anything about his trust issues, and certainly not to pass judgment on who was the wounded party.

Here's the variable swap-out I consider relevant. In one scenario, the rules of the game are monogamy. A woman violates those rules by having sex with another man. In the next scenario, the rules of the game are open relationship. A woman violates the rules by having sex with another man without giving proper notification of intent. I just don't see those as equivalent. Maybe it's a fault in me, but the former seems like a gross violation of trust. The latter seems like a bureaucratic error, more in line with going back and correcting the date a form was filled out.

Yet the emotions associated with the first are given as the reason for emotions associated with the second. My advice to CUCK would be to separate the two in his mind.

(I prefer the references to Sartre and Spark to Rumpole. I'm really not up on my Rumpole.) (I would study up on my Rumpole for you.)

@8 + @59

The idea that fellatio automatically denies men of
control in the act is ridiculous. Get on your fav porn site and search 'throat fucking' or something like that and you will see extremes on the male control motif.

Being an active suckee for a man does raise issues of dominance and submission and it's not all men or women that are comfortable with those. I agree with @59 that thrusting may make a difference. Try having her lay on her back and use a vibrator on herself as you control the oral.

There's even an obscure Latin word for it: irrumatio

I was surprised at Dan's assertion that women willing to cuckold are rare. I would probably find it hot. I am poly, though, so perhaps I am rare to begin with, and I've already dealt with that taboo in our puritanical culture.

And I also want to go on record as one who appreciates Dan advising both same-sex couples and opposite-sex couples. Other advice columnists, though they are often very good, just aren't Dan Savage good.

@61 seeker

I agree with EricaP @64. You want your wife to take control of the blowjob. Just not her way. Because her way doesn't get you off.

Instead of focusing on what she is doing wrong, try focusing on what she is doing right. And in real time (Oh I love the way your mouth feels. You look SO sexy sucking my cock. I love when you suck my balls. etc). Most lovers, when given positive feedback (knowing that what they are doing is turning you on=positive!), will gain confidence in their skills. And thus enjoying it more. And who doesn't love an enthusiastic blowjob?

Once you have praised her skills and she can see the fruits of her labor (you are super turned on, your dick is really hard), then you can add suggestions. It's not what you ask, but HOW you ask. Demanding might get you shut down. But a sexy idea is always worth trying.

@Steeeeverino: Jesus Christ, that's sad.

Most women don't read minds, don't watch tons of porn, and don't have some kind of natural blowjob instinct that causes them to, say, put their hair up in pigtails, strip down to nothing but a pair of knee socks, and assume a sexy and provocative pose while nibbling on your dick in exactly the way you'd like.

You have to tell them, nicely and without mumbling, what you want them to do. And you might even have to remind them the next time. Believe me, even a woman with a sexual IQ in the retardate range can learn to give an awesome blowjob if she's willing to take instruction.

But, assuming you've communicated what you want, and she simply isn't responding, you need to make her understand that her neglect is hurtful and making you unhappy. Don't say anything about her motivations or character, don't take the bait when she inevitably blames you, don't do anything that will justify her feelings of defensiveness. Just focus your discussions on how this situation feels to you and your desire to build a satisfying sex life with her.

I'm sure 15 years of miserly blowjobs has taken its toll on your self esteem, so you might find this easier to pull off if get yourself into shape and find opportunities to flirt with other women.

The enthusiasm of the performer is definitely a big factor in the enjoyment of the receiver. Of all the possible types of foreplay, receiving oral sex is near the bottom of my list. However, there have been a few guys who made me want it all the time. Part of it was skill, but it was much more how enthusiastic they were about wanting to go down on me. Treating it like something they're doing because they feel like they have to is not hot.

When I read "because she won't take control" in 61, I read that less as actually controlling the blow job and more as assertively wanting to give the blow job. I enjoy giving head, and I'd be willing to bet that most of the guys I've been with would consider me a "take charge" kinda girl in that respect, even though I happily take direction, and will ask for it if it's not readily given from a new partner.

I'd like to think you're not SOL on getting good head Steeeeverino, but I think it's a lot easier to teach someone who's enthusiastic than it is to get enthusiasm from someone who's already skilled but doesn't really care. I'd suggest trying to determine if there's anything that would make her enjoy it more, instead of coming at it in a way she may consider an attack.

albeit @69: The person unhappy with his wife's blowjobs @61 was Steeeeverino, not seeker. Sorry for confusing the matter by addressing several different people in my post @64.

KateRose@71: good advice and thanks for explaining Steeeeverino's point to me.

Assuming Steeeeverino's wife does not enjoy giving blowjobs, he should approach his wife with the idea that doing "x" (x=finger in ass) = coming faster, i.e. getting it over with.

More importantly, I can't believe EricaP and KateRose spelled Steeeeverino with the accurate amount of "e"s. That is the kind of attention to detail that, combined with the fact they enjoy giving of head, makes me wish I were Mr. P/Rose

Ms Crinoline - A reasonable enough assessment. If the LW were like anyone out of Dame Muriel, he could perhaps be Matthew Finch from The Bachelors, obsessively treading and retreading the same questions he keeps asking his friends, stuck between feeling pressured into marriage, half wanting to marry Alice despite her being pregnant by Patrick Seton, and half wanting not to marry anybody.

Now there's a book that might have fit into the Straight Men's Stress thread, although the one lament that really stood out for me was how Elsie (though not a very sympathetic character) hated the way men treated her with their packets of contraceptives like wrapped sweets and only going so far when she wanted, despite not particularly wanting to be a mother, to conceive a child with a man she loved.

"Steeeeverino" I can copy-and-paste. Unfortunately one can't do that with sexual techniques.

I think part of the difficulty with blowjobs is that somehow people get the idea it's terrifically easy for a guy to get off that way, when actually it's not necessarily so, and it may be not-so for a zillion different reasons on both sides of the game. But one thing to keep in mind is that fellatio can also be awesome foreplay, and it can be a lot easier to enjoy it that way first, where there's no pressure except to just feel pretty good, and later try to get it further and further into the realm of things-that-make-him-come.

@76: Frankly, I'm disappointed to see that no Savage Love women have stepped up and offered @Steeeeverino the benefit of their talents after reading his heart-wrenching story. It's a cold and lonely world out there...

@70 seandr

'Believe me, even a woman with a sexual IQ in the retardate range can learn to give an awesome blowjob if she's willing to take instruction. '

Willing to take instruction. That goes both ways. For women and for men.

I find that the average man isn't keen on taking instructions or suggestions. No matter how delicately I couch the suggestion, I am often met with huffing child-like behavior. Usually the relationship doesn't go beyond that. Just because you saw something in a porn or that is what the last woman responded to doesn't mean it will automatically work on me. I find these rigid assumptions useless. And I certainly won't come from it.

The best lovers I had viewed sex as play. Playful curiosity and discovery. Not an activity that marched (or thrust) to the goal line. Losing the preconception that we have to do this and it has to end like this changes the game. In the best possible way.

CUCK, if you want this woman or any other to fuck other guys to get you off, you need to get much less stressed about her fucking other guys. For this to work it needs to satisfy both your needs and hers, so the "script" is going to have to be a compromise between your needs and hers. Both from what I've read and from common sense, it's normal (though not universal) for women in this scene to like to fuck some guys repeatedly rather than finding a new guy every time, and it sounds like that's something your girl likes, so consider writing that into the "script". Since there's three people involved, one of whom is not a party to your agreement with your hot significant other, you can't expect to micromanage things, and you need to expect things to go off-script from time to time, and be able to roll with that. (Suppose OK Cupid guy is single and would like your girlfriend to be his girlfriend. If you keep doing this, sooner or later she's going to meet a guy like that. How's he going to react if she tells him, "I can't do X because my boyfriend would dump me!") If, being honest with yourself, you won't be OK when things go off script, you should keep things to fantasy and role-playing.

You want her to tell you the truth about what's going on, don't you? Because that's necessary for this to work. For that to happen, she has to be comfortable with telling you the truth, and for her to be comfortable with telling you the truth, you need to give her positive feedback when she confesses to you, however little you like what she's confessing. Difficult, but it's part of the price of admission. From the sound of things, she's afraid to tell you what's going on (she only told you when she was drunk), and rightly so (you're considering dumping her, and you wouldn't be if she hadn't come clean to you.)

So, normal trip-ups.

@12 is worth reading. "Minute men" may not be desirable, but neither are "hour men." For me, and I know every body is different, but 15-20 minutes of PIV is plenty (with the right partner, I could get off 2-3 or more times even in that time). Not that the whole game might not take an hour, but more than 20-30 minutes of pounding can be painful. At least MY body was not meant to take more than that at one time. Plus, if your partner is anything like me, if you keep it to slightly shorter sessions, we can do several of those in one night, if you're game. Our friskiest nights have included SEVERAL short-ish sessions, leaving us both unable to move when daylight breaks. If sessions 1-3 didn't leave me raw from too-long pounding, and I don't have to get up for work, it's likely I'm game for another go-round an hour or so later. Overall, I'm a better partner having PIV sex with decent foreplay for 30-45 minutes every 2 hours for 24 hours straight than "going for the gold" with one, hours-long sack session. Yes, the DH "wears out" after 4-5 of these sessions, most of the time, but they're much more satisfying and less chafing, at least for us.

@67

"The idea that fellatio automatically denies men of control in the act is ridiculous."

Was it not clear that that was my point?

I remember (many moons ago) the first time someone didn't put his hand on the back of my head when I went down on him and being like 'well this is different'.

@TimHorton- Eirene is correct. Copy/paste is a fabulous tool.

As far as liking to give head... I'm confused by people who don't like to do things that get a positive reaction from their partner. Hearing moans or growls of enjoyment are worth an occasional sore jaw. And a well placed, sincere compliment works wonders as an aphrodisiac.

@76 & @77: Sorry, not interested. Steeeeeverino is a total stranger to me, guys, and a married man at that.

@albeit: I am often met with huffing child-like behavior

That is just so sad.

I've had a couple relationships with women who were (for lack of a better term) projects, sexually speaking. In one case, it was a sexual abuse thing, and the other had simply not yet discovered her sexuality. Both were eventually able to open up (giving and receiving), and the whole metamorphosis was super hot.

@auntie grizelda: You're a saint for even considering my ridiculous post.

@Steeeeeverino: Ball's in your court. I think auntie grizelda might be into you.

seandr @84:

I cannot imagine anything more off-putting and more likely to kill my libido than to be considered someone's "project".

(Disclaimer: I was exaggerating, coprophagy would be even more off-putting.)

Ms Rose - Some of us got serious cramps.

Mr. Ven- Obviously in a situation like that it's not the fault of the giver. If you've tried different positions and none work, you've done your due diligence. As I stated, they're worth an OCCASIONAL sore jaw. And even on those occasions I rarely notice until afterwards (yay, endorphins!)
It's perfectly acceptable to throw in the towel if you can only make it so long. That's why hands and whatever else you want to use are there. And if it's always really painful, that I don't think you get your GGG card taken away for not being able to.
But for people who don't find it painful, or perhaps those who only experience mild discomfort, I can't fathom not only being willing to do something that isn't your favorite, but enthusiastic to please them.

The caveat of course is that this applies only to partners who are enthusiastic to please in return or beforehand. A partner who is only into his own pleasure is not deserving of an enthusiastic blow job.

@migrationist: to be considered someone's "project".

Um, OK, although your defensiveness sounds a bit like the "huffing child-like behavior" @albeit referred to.

Anyway, in the off chance you and I start falling in love but you turn out to be kind of a project (for lack of a better term), sexually speaking, I'll be sure not to use that term. We'll refer to you instead as a seedling who just needs a little water and sunlight for her flower to bloom.

The enthusiasm of the performer is definitely a big factor in the enjoyment of the receiver...it [is] much more how enthusiastic they were about wanting to go down on me. Treating it like something they're doing because they feel like they have to is not hot.

Exactly that. I'm a dude and all the difference in whether or not a blowjob - or for that matter any kind of sex - is hot is whether or not my partner is also enthusiastic about it. The first time I ever got off from oral (and it wasn't until I was in my 30's) was with a woman who loved sucking. She was intent on getting a mouthful and the act of sucking itself as well as swallowing and really got off on it. So did I...some of the most amazing powerful orgasms ever (left my ears ringing!).

I've had two relationships with women I dearly loved where they just weren't into it - they'd do it out of "duty" and "because it's supposed to feel really good" or "if you give your boyfriend/husband blowjobs, he'll stay in love with you and won't stray" or whatever. It was obligatory. And clearly something they'd just as soon never do - fake enthusiasm...isn't this the big complaint about porn? Why can't we have something real?

My fiance is not very skilled, but she likes it - she even likes being passive and just letting me "f**k her mouth" while she lays back. The fact that she actually likes it makes all the difference.

Dan missed the obvious for the guy who can't finish from a BJ - a little thrusting on his part may give him enough control to get him over the edge.

@85: seandr: You COMPLETELY misread my post from @83!!
Please read it again. I specifically wrote the following:

"Sorry, not interested. Steeeeverino is a total stranger to me, guys, and a married man at that."

What part of NO, THANKS don't you get?

@ Auntie Griz, I think he was making a joke along the lines of, "the lady doth protest too much". The fact that you even acknowledged his joking post means you must have considered it for a moment. At least, that's how many would read it.

@auntie grizelda:
Where I'm from, if a woman says "not interested", "fuck off", "you're violating your restraining order", or "the cops are on their way", that's a good sign she likes you.

Joking of course! Ha.

Considering that AT's girlfriend is sad that he can't come during oral sex, she should be willing to try different things that might help. I don't get the commentors above who suggested a "little" thrusting. Uh ... how about more than a little?

Irrumatio (being the active participant while getting a bj) is the easiest way to assume control. If the girlfriend isn't experienced enough to be the passive recipient with a cock thrusting into her mouth for long, they can try a variation ... such as having AT kneel over her, thrusting his cock between her breasts (I only recently found out that's called "Russian"; who knew?) and only entering her mouth close to climax. That way, he still maintains the level of control he requires without leaving her with a sore jaw. And, hey, it provides new visuals, fun for both parties.

@93 KateRose: Thank you for your comment. I was indeed hoping seandr was kidding, and certainly considered his statement as potentially jovial, but wasn't entirely sure.
@94: Hunt, Overtrolls?
@95 seandr: I eventually figured that you were joking,or trying to, but when a woman really DOES say and mean no, I'm not among those laughing.
Are you from the southern US, by any chance? Such views on women--even when "joking"--- is why I choose to avoid states like Texas, Oklahoma, Georgia, Alabama, and Arizona altogether.
Some may feel I'm "over-reacting" here, but that's just how I feel.

Griz, I got your back.

There's not much creepier than people suggesting that verbalizing a lack of interest in a man means you're really interested and he should give you more attention. It's really just thinly veiled schoolyard bullying ("haha, suzy doesn't like it when I touch her hair a little bit, imagine how upset she'll be when I touch it a LOT!!") couched in 'hurr hurr women don't know WHAT they want'.

Oh and P.S. using Shakespeare to bullshit legitimize it is super lame. It might work on your 14 year old girlfriend, but it won't work here.

I think a lot of people do think of it as not really a blowjob if the guy is just thrusting into a mouth. It's another act, which they might or might not like, but not the same thing. (See, e.g., Figleaf at http://www.realadultsex.com/content/revi….) I would hate it, myself -- if I'm going to get thrust into, I'd infinitely rather it was in some bit of me that DIDN'T NEED TO BREATHE, thank you very much. I'd also feel as if I'd failed at stimulating my partner appropriately when I'd had the chance. And it's not really any easier technically -- you're just changing what techniques are employed and by whom.

One of the more difficult things about deciding what to do sexually, especially if it concerns orgasm, is to figure out when to take on more control and when to let go and just let stuff happen. Sometimes it's more of an internal letting go than anything specific you do outwardly. Men especially can feel a lot of pressure for everything they do sexually to be performative, and it's not surprising that sometimes gets in the way of their own pleasure.

@auntie grizelda:
Oh dear, there's been quite a misunderstanding.

My post @77 wasn't meant to be taken seriously. The idea was to a present an earnest and deluded male character (assumed by me) whose beliefs about heterosexuality (specifically, that women would out of pity rally to give a random guy on the internet a blowjob) diverge, radically and obviously, from the way our world actually works. It made me laugh, so I hit Post.

After you gave it a serious response, I couldn't help but mess around a little more @85. So, I feigned misinterpreting your overstated (and unnecessary) rejection of poor @Steeeeverino as meaning you were into him. The joke could be on me, the protagonist, for being a stereotypically obtuse male, or on @Steeeeverino given that it's obvious to everyone that you aren't actually into him, or on you for protesting a little much.

When you didn't get where I was coming from on that, I attempted another goof @95. The idea was to gradually reveal, over the course of a sentence, another deluded male character who is bizarrely unaware of his problems with women even though they become immediately obvious to anyone listening to him. For this to work, I probably needed a more absurd quote than the one's I came up with. Ah well.

I grew up in the Twin Cities, but have spent a majority of my life living in various liberal urban Seattle enclaves, mostly Capitol Hill. I guess you'll have to add Seattle to your list of places to avoid. Sorry about that.

@99: Thank you, and bless you, mydriasis!

@102 seandr: No sweat---I'm not out for blood. Hey, I've made attempts at humor that severely blew up in my face in Dan's column, too, so you're not alone there.
I'm glad that you really were joking, though. I guess I didn't catch the sarcasm the first and second time. But even if you were joking, I am totally with mydriasis here: creepy, not funny. That must be a guy thing.

I'm a Seattle-born Washington native; Capitol Hill is a happening place, and while I no longer live in The Emerald City, I certainly wouldn't add Seattle to my list of places to avoid. Actually, I harbor a rather "Louise Sawyer"-like fear of red states (i.e.: '...believe me, if you shoot off a guy's head with his pants down, Texas is not a place you wanna get caught!').
I don't own a gun, nor would I ever think to shoot anybody. The point I'm trying to make is that people living in Republican run red states would most likely want to shoot someone like ME.

@seandr

Haha

I feel your pain. I remember trying to make a humourous remark by portraying myself as clueless and everyone lost their shit on me.