Columns May 1, 2013 at 4:00 am

Move On

Comments

107
The thing is that you need to have some kind of reset button, because it's no fun having sex with someone who resents you, or someone who doesn't seem to want you but only to get their rocks off. (It's not just a yes/no, want/don't want situation, after all.) You've got to get back to the point of being able to act lovingly toward each other before having sex is even going help any. And people do go through cycles like that without it being necessarily destructive to the marriage.

I've been married twenty years, and both of us have been through a lot of libido ebbs and flows. The very fact that we've weathered through those things as well as we have is a testament to how well our marriage works, seems to me. Currently we're both at the high end, so things are about as intense as they've ever been, but I'm interested probably twice as often as he is. We make up for that by cuddling a lot more than we ever used to.
108
Seems to me that in healthy marriages, the reset button often takes the form of some kind of night without the children, whatever that means in context (a weekend at a resort, dropping the kids off with the grandparents, or just going out on a date while a babysitter puts the kids to bed). Both partners know that means sex.

If that's too much pressure, and sex is still off the table, that marriage needs more than a reset button. It needs the people involved to consider if they would really still choose to marry each other, if they had it to do over again.
109
Ms Shurenka - I wasn't referring to Known Works by Feminists of Note, but thinking in particular of discussions in venues more feminist than this of this sort of situation. There is consensus, as I said, about there never being an obligation or an entitlement. But, in discussing long-term cutoffs, there tend to be clear factions of those who think that, however good the reasons for the cutoff, expecting a spouse to suck it up and remain cheerfully supportive indefinitely isn't the most practical approach, and those who think that there's nothing wrong with making the unilateral decision to expand the No Obligation to Ever while still holding the spouse to Vows! of Fidelity!! before GOD!!! that were only presumed by those commenting.
110
@nocutename:
I'm not seeing the contradiction between @95 and my earlier posts that you are, so not sure how to answer that question.

Anyway, there's only one woman/marriage. I wouldn't say our compatibility issues have been "resolved" (we're somewhat of an odd couple, and likely always will be), and certainly not in a single therapy session. But over the years we've come to manage our differences, more or less, in a way that seems to be working.
111
@32

"Honestly, if there's no sex left in the marriage, then it shouldn't devastate his wife to hear that he's getting some elsewhere. She knows he's human. Promising monogamy isn't the same as promising celibacy. If the news does devastate her, that's probably because they are still having sex."

I agree that cheating/lying is wrong, but this is absolutely not how I've seen it work. I've known MANY people who will no longer have sex with their partners but are deeply horrified by the idea that their partner might want to have sex with someone else. They feel that if their partner really loves them then sex should not be important.
112
People have all sorts of demented ideas. I know many parents think their children should obey their parents' wishes. But adult children (in our society) can't live their lives as if that's a reasonable idea. And anyone who is married to someone who thinks that "if their partner really loves them then sex should not be important" should find a way to puncture that belief or should start the process of ending the relationship. Life is too short to spend it with someone who denies the importance of one of your needs.
113
@111: "I've known MANY people who will no longer have sex with their partners but are deeply horrified by the idea that their partner might want to have sex with someone else."

I agree that these people are all too common. And purely on the merits of their argument the technical term for such a person should be "hypocritical fucking asshole."

But because of our default assumptions about monogamy, they and many like them actually think they are perfectly in the right. Not that they are emotional and insecure and need indulging, but that their selfish, one-sided, thoughtless, unsympathetic, illogical stance is the very peak on the moral high ground. That their partner is the one in the wrong for having the normal human needs and drives that under slightly different circumstances, conservatives are trumpeting as the very fundament of marriage (namely, the sexual union, because in that union lies the continuance of the species.)

Sex is supposed to be the defining quality of marriage, except when one partner isn't interested, at which point it is supposed to be so trivial as to not be worth any consideration whatsoever, except that getting this supposedly negligible thing elsewhere is of relationship-shattering importance. I'd say to them, "You can't have it both ways," only they are trying to have it way more than just two ways.
114
I've heard plenty of people say things in general conversation that imply that they and their spouses DO have sex, but I've never heard anyone say or imply in a face-to-face conversation that they DIDN'T. Which isn't to say it doesn't happen, but it doesn't seem to be the kind of thing people I know ever talk about. And FWIW several of the divorced women I know have talked wistfully about missing sex with their exes, even when they hardly had a good word to say for them in other ways.
115
"Which isn't to say it doesn't happen, but it doesn't seem to be the kind of thing people I know ever talk about."

They tell people half their age. A lot.
116
I used to be half the age I am now, you know. :-) No one told me then, either.

I'm not at all doubting that other people have these conversations. Just my two cents about my own experience.
117
Touche. Depends on who you're forced to socialize with, I guess.
118
@seandr: funny:) I said women liked sex not needed it, for the record. So when it comes to lesbians I think "bed death" is more about apathy and companionship is a little more important for women in the long run anyway, to be very very general. But anyway, when I say it's "you not them" I just mean that the person saying no isn't always the reason the sex isn't happening. Excuses exist but so do real reasons I might not want to screw my husband. But probably only that day, not long term. I get what you have probably experienced, and I am sorry. Here's why: I believe men are entitled to sex. I believe they need it. But I believe we are all entitled to the things we need. I don't need sex.(ok, I do but not in the same way) I need other things. I need someone to brew an awesome cup of coffee for me because I love coffee and can't make it well at at all. I need someone who wants to sit at a kitchen table with my 80 year old grandmother and talk with her about her favorite shows. Needs are a trade off because everyone's are different. So he makes good coffee and I make sure not be apathetic about his sexual needs. But if he didn't give a shit about my needs(for me it's the small stuff:coffee,grandma,recycling when I think it's full, not when he does) I wouldn't bother. But after reading more of what you say about yourself, I don't doubt you tried/try to meet her needs.

119
I think Dan Savage should be honest about how he has cheated on his partner. Don't be fooled everyone.
120
I think Dan Savage should be honest about his fidelity to his own partner. Don't be fooled everyone.
121
@112

@113

I'm not sure how it can actually be fixed. I happen to be in a weird situation, with one pair of friends, where I've heard from them both. She used to love sex but is basically asexual now because of an SSRI. He is not asexual at all. He desires her and she gets physical pleasure but not emotional or mental pleasure from sex. But she feels like a failure about it and wouldn't ever give him permission to "cheat". However, strangely, she's said she'd "get it" if he did, but she'd never ever want to know about it because she'd find it really upsetting and might leave

These are people who dearly love each other and have adult children and a life built together. He once described to me how amazing it is to look in her eyes and they both know exactly what the other is thinking, remembering, feeling. It's not at all simple to leave someone because they won't have sex -- especially when it's because of something physical they can't control, like absolutely needing an SSRI so as not to be suicidal.

(I suggested marriage counseling to both of them because it seemed weird and not healthy for me to be the one told about problems.)
122
I could have written HIM's letter - verbatim. I was a wreck but recovered. I was an asshole and paid in unholy fire, but emerged much more mature and appreciative when my wife finally came along. Not innocent anymore, but happy. It'll dim - trust me. It's a good lesson for both of you.
123
@121, "she ... wouldn't ever give him permission to "cheat". However, strangely, she's said she'd "get it" if he did, but she'd never ever want to know about it because she'd find it really upsetting and might leave"

She's scared of change. Of course she's scared. It's scary stuff. But he should ask her to let him have sex with other people. If she doesn't want the details, she can tell him that to his face. Of course it would be really upsetting for her at first, but if she can already say that she "might" leave, then she is probably going to be able to stay, and that's about as promising as it gets. And in the end, she'll be able to feel good about meeting his needs in this other way. At least they could give it a try.
124
@121: Has she tried a different SSRI?
125
I mean, seriously: if you know beyond a reasonable doubt that the cause is pharmaceutical, the obvious first thing to try fixing would be the meds, before resorting to more exotic solutions like opening the relationship.
126
avast: That makes so much sense I have to think she's already tried it -- but who knows. Wellbutrin is usually the go-to if you want to escape sexual side effects, from what I hear, but of course everyone reacts differently and it might not work for her at all. And I can totally understand wanting to stick with something that works if the alternative is suicidal depression. Can't fuck if you're dead, after all.
127
@40 - from your comment it doesn't even sound like you need your wife's fidelity because you're perfectly fine toggling your own dongle. Loudly.

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