One reason it's a bad idea to go over and pound a guy who beats your sister is that it may backfire. It may make him a martyr to your sister, and drive a wedge between you and her. Abusers often isolate their partners--this gives him the opening to say, "See? They don't like me, they don't like us being together. They're trying to drive us apart."

Another alternative is that he'll turn around and beat her worse later.

Unless the wife's some kind of combat expert, they could calmly stop her and tell her to leave or they'll call the cops. I'm pretty sure mall security and bouncers handle crazy women all the time.

Most of them handle it by just arresting the man: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/woma…

Simpler that way.

@101: But in many cases like this it is the submissive (in the metaphorical rather than BDSM sense of the word) partner who is making themselves property. Take a look at how the BF in the letter treats brother15: like something he owns, and in a way which directly challenges what we can call the "protective ownership" of the brother and replacing it with what we can call "the sexual ownership" of the BF, and one which specifically challenges the familial authority of the brother. (And, yes, there is authority there, and there should be.)

In a dynamic where the BF has created an ownership game and brother15 has accepted being property, why on earth is brother25 the only one not allowed to play to win that game? The only thing I'd suggest to brother25 is the thing that Dan finds unacceptable: waiting until BF is 18, if for no other reason than to increase the odds that the cops won't arrest him. "Knocked the BF on his ass when he went too far" may result in brother25 being charged; "knocked BF who is statutory rapist on his ass" far less so. That said, the "softly softly / talk / awareness" approaches outlined here are -- IMHO, and while objectively vexing and morally odd -- far more likely to produce positive results than the well-deserved ass-whooping.

O/T Fortunate, do you play the harp ? Just curious.

@115: Hence my use of the word "just". He should have been arrested; he should not have been the only one arrested when there was videos showing assaults and furniture-throwing by pretty much everybody concerned and especially most if not all of the women. My point is that in 99 out of a 100 cases cops will just arrest the man.

I pretty sure that if you don't hit her you won't get arrested.

I'm sorry for your shitty childhood, but that has to the most fucking naive thing I have heard all day, and one completely at odds with my own past experiences as a family lawyer and the past and current experiences of my criminal colleagues. And even in those cases where the cops don't arrest anybody (even where the man is actually bleeding) they lean on him to leave the home to "calm things down". And the second he is out that door he has lost the family case because the court will accept his departure as an implicit admission that he was the problem, or as a convenient way of saying "that's now the status quo" while pretending not to take sides on who struck who.

@114 I'm so used to the soft approach that I don't find it vexing anymore to ask for forgiveness from my kids when I've overstepped the line. I don't want them to find doing it vexing either. I want them to understand that's it's a road towards reconciliation, a mending of the relationship, not an admission of having just lost a fight.

In the LW situation, if brother25 wants brother15 to learn how it feels when one is being respected, the fastest way is to shower brother15 with the desired respect from now on.

Besides, brother25 does agree that brother15 is a victim here, the victim of an asshole. Don't blame the victim, don't restrict the victim's life.

Respect doesn't mean becoming a doormat. Brother25 will have to set some rules with brother15 - motivated by safety or homework, such as "be home before this time", and brother15 breaks the rules, then grounding brother15 for a week will have to be enforced. But rules must be discussed beforehand and accepted as fair by the younger one, before there's any breaking of them... Maintaining a set of fair-enough non-retroactive rules is one of the biggest parts of parenting, it leads to endless conflicts but it's vital.

@118: And if that works for you, god bless'ee sorr and long life to you.

But the LW has a dickhead actively trying to undermine all of that good work, and enablers like Allan Gilliam airily dismissing LW as not even family, just some 25 year old guy.

You seem to have far more patience for collaborative approaches than I do. (I have seen them used to fuck over people far too often to trust them.) How would you rate the possible success of a joint family sit-down with BF's parents and the two little Romeos?

@116 - Yes

@82, Mydriasis, okay, you're under 25, but you must a parent? Is that why you've read so many parenting books? If you're not, do you think that's normal?

These guys are brothers first, not parent and child, and they've been through hell. How many teen parenting books are going to address their situation? dead parents, gay teen being raised by his brother? I think they need a wise counselor first and foremost. Then let THAT guy suggest a book or two.

Mr Seeker - I'm mainly guessing at Mr Savage's probable line of thinking. If you've been paying attention, you'll note that he's been on quite that sort of run lately.

I think you're turning into some sort of contest between LW and BF and in so doing completely erasing YB's agency. Unfortunately, we won't agree because that's what I care about, YB's agency. I don't care if Veruco Salt gets pushed down the garbage chute. I don't care if LW's feelings get hurt because he doesn't feel sufficiently respected by VS. It's about whether VS respects YB, which ultimately appears to be YB's call. Even if LW routs VS, how does the end result not boil down to S-shaming YB for welcoming VS's attentions and for apparently not feeling disrespected by VS's conduct? (There could be a long conversation about respect, whether YB does feel disrespected by VS, why not if he doesn't, why LW thinks he should, etc. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to be LW's style.)

Now you are welcome to defend S-shaming if you wish, or you can try calling it an unintended by-product of a necessary line of conduct due to a case of more immediate need. You are welcome to mount a defence of the concept of an objective standard of respect to which outside parties can hold VS. I won't engage any defence of using the law against VS, not mainly because entitlement and disrespect don't deserve prison sentences, but because I am content merely to drop the H bomb on anyone who advocates the use of a law which, if not specifically stated to be used in an anti-gay manner, is all too well known for being implemented in a way to impose severe penalties on same-sex "offenders" and light or no penalties in the other direction.

To tie this in to another recent thread, Mr Savage would have us assume that YB sexts VS on a regular basis (and presumably vice versa). He doesn't object to VS's sentiments and activities but to the context of their expression. It all seems more or less in line with what he's been saying lately.

Mr Fortunate indeed. I wasn't permitted to learn the harp; when I had the agency, I lacked the funds.

Messrs Fortunate/Rhone - May I have a free pass to get out of having to cover the backs of people who put me into life-threatening conversion therapy against my will with the full support and approval of all the blood relations who were told about it? I attempt to convert nobody, and just seek validation for my own experience.

(I could say that all the chest-thumping has given me the idea that there might be less entertaining things to observe than Mr F's father squaring off against Mr R's mother, but I won't.)

Mr. Ven @126: Absolutely. Were my father alive, he would certainly not be on the list. Family can lose the honor of being called blood. And certain friends can gain it. It's not purely a matter of genetics, it's what's in your heart- and theirs. All chest thumping aside, people- especially LGBT people- often make their own families, and it's to those people that one remains loyal to and protective of.

@126- family isn't strictly about blood. You get to decide who your family is. I'm just fortunate that, for the most part, I really love the people I am related to by blood.

@portland

I'd argue that most people who pore over parenting books have been through one kind of hell or another. Why else would we do it?

Whether it's a parent's death that causes us to become parents to our siblings, or abuse, neglect... for some people bad experiences at the hands of caregivers will send you to parenting resources like a bat out of hell. It's called 'breaking the cycle'.

Do I think it's normal? No. But that's just the point. These kids aren't "normal" their circumstances preclude that.

@lolorhone & Fortunate:

I didn't object to supporting family. I tried to explain why I find beating up one's sister's BF not really supportive.

@130: I didn't think you were against supporting family. I think we simply disagree as to what constitutes support. Beating an abusive prick senseless is a clear demonstration of the dire consequence that would befall him if ever put his hands on my sister again. My family would do this in addition to talking to the sister about how completely unacceptable physical abuse is. What you're talking about isn't just a person in a abusive situation; you're talking about Stockholm Syndrome.

@Fortunate : Oh boy oh boy ! Celtic harp, or full-fledged orchestra harp ? I've been learning for the past 3 years on a 34-strings celtic harp. I'm not as good as I wish I were !

@129 I hear you, breaking the cycle happens to be my life's purpose... Kudos to you.

129-- People read parenting books because they want/need information. They don't necessarily have to have been through hell with their own upbringing. There are other ways to get information including seeing a professional counselor, trial and error, writing advice columnists, watching daytime t.v., reading Shakespeare. I only suggested library books because they're readily available, cheap, and probably not too taxing. I only suggested checking out all of them because it's good to get many points of view and a good skimming through many would point out where they agree, where they contradict, and how advice has changed over the years.

@Crin

I didn't say read. I said pore over, in reference to my earlier post about reading an unusual number from an early age.

I wasn't suggesting that the only reason people would read them is because of the reasons I mentioned. I was posting in support of reading such books - go back and read the whole thread...

@119: Seeker6079, I did not dismiss the older brother as "just some 25 year old guy." In comment #8 I wrote:

The 17-year-old BF is not being crude "in front of his family." He's being crude in front of a 25-year-old guy.

I was obviously expressing how the boyfriend might see the older brother. This is an alternative explanation for his behavior that does not require him to be the disrespectful asshole that you seem hell-bent on assuming him to be.

This is another example of how you detach yourself from the facts with amazing alacrity. And thank you for misspelling my name and misquoting me. It shows your general lack of concern for-- what's it called? Oh, yes: accuracy.

Seeker6079 is a victim of what scientists call selection bias. He works, or worked, as a "family lawyer." Obviously his ideas about interpersonal relationships are ridiculously skewed by his exposure to the worst of the worst people and conflicts: the ones that end up in court. He is imposing his own expectations onto the events in the letter. I hope his arrogance doesn't stop him from realizing that I'm right, at least in his own mind. I have no hope that he will admit so here.

@138: Uh, I think the BF's an asshole and I've never been a family lawyer. I think if the BF doesn't equate the youngish older brother with family (which he most certainly is, his ONLY family as a matter of fact), something's wrong with him (and not just a youthful lack of discretion) and I'm not only gay but a bed-wetting liberal, personally and politically. I sense no homophobia on the older brother's part; bad boundaries usually bring about bad personal decisions and he's right to be put off and alarmed. He's not handling it particularly well but, shit, give him a break, he's brand new at this. Maybe the BF will grow out of this wildly inappropriate behavior but- make no mistake- it is WILDLY inappropriate.

@140: Yeah, I was letting myself be a bit arrogant in my word choice in an effort to be subtly funny. Try picturing me in front of a brick wall with a microphone when you read my comments.

Nothing here that hasn't been covered in Party of Five. The bros should buy the series and watch it together.

@130- and that's your opinion. But you aren't my sister and this isn't a hypothetical 'what if'. She is my sister. Not only had we lived our entires lives under the same roof up till that point, we were, and are, very close.

So YOU may not have considered it supportive, but she did. Since it was her and not you, it turns out what we did WAS supportive.

@132 - I play lever, electric lever and pedal harp. I do play some Celtic music, and am fond of O'Carolan's compositions, and I have been known to pull out the occasional piece of classical music for the heck of it (Salzedo, Debussy and Ravel being my goto art composers of choice). But I mainly play Jazz and pop.

I've played for somewhere between 25 and 30 years. Keep at it. It takes a lot of time and never ending practice, put if you study and practice you will get better. But if you are a musician at heart you will never be satisfied. There is always something new to learn and some additional technique to master. But it's worth it.

To lolorhone - please accept my regrets: it is difficult to concoct from this admittedly flirt-challenged thread another excuse for you and Ophian to flirt some more (my primary reason for SLOG existence so far) when Ophian doesn't show up to the party.

I will try again next week.

I want to thank the great man that was able to bring back my lover within 24hours. If you want your lover back contact this great man whose name is Dr.okoja on Udupisolueiontemple@outlook.com And i promise you that your lover will run back to you asking you for forgiveness.

@Fortunate 144 : Thanks for the encouragements :-) I know I'll never be satisfied with my playing, but it doesn't mean I'm a musician at heart - my learning curve is so flat, as with most adult beginners, that I'll be senile before I'm a good enough amateur. It doesn't bother me though. Most people find the harp itself pleasing to hear, even under beginner's hands, so I can practice without fear of bothering, and that's all I need to keep practicing.

It takes so much work to become a good musician that I feel justified in having a soft spot for male ones...

Jazz with a harp makes me think of this lady's work.

@Still Thinking : Heartily seconded.

@145: Ophian and I are flirting (well, talking. Well, OK, both.) on the "This Is Probably Not The Effect..." thread this week. But I am warmed to my core that we have such a well-wisher in you. And if there is any lexical hottie you have your eye on, let me know and I'll try my best to set something up. I'm all about reciprocity.

@147: You can't expect to get honesty or common sense out of spam, but I hear you. Definitely on my goddamn nerves.

Maybe this link works better.

@148:

I meant what I said @177 in the "17 Year-Old Feminist", my elegant Gallic friend:

http://www.thestranger.com/slog/archives…

...Feminist" (thread), my elegant Gallic friend:

@151: I'm very fond of this harpist myself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sL0T1yUYk…

gayer than nickelback lollollololl

http://teespring.com/gayrussia

Dude the letter about the younger gay bro is totally fake.

@2:

To put this into perspective, if my boyfriend grabbed my ass and called me fuckable (as welcome as that is in private) in front of my brother, who is only 2 years older than me, I would consider that grossly inappropriate and just plain weird dude. Now if we round my brother up 8 years and make him my sole legal guardian? That ass grab, goes from inappropriate to monumentally reprehensible. Big brother has cause to be concerned if 18 year old boy friend can't grasp this.

@152 Tread carefully over such ground if you don't want to end up invited to France before long...

@154 Thanks for the link, I didn't know her work, I'll keep it in my tabs. I've tried singing and playing at the same time, it's several orders of magnitude harder than just playing. Actually I know I'll never be a good harpist, but I'd love to master the harp enough to accompany my singing.

Sissoucat, That was pretty good. I was not familiar with her.

Don't sell yourself or your ability short just because of age. Remember, Derek Bell didn't start learning the harp until he was well into his 30's and still went on to become principle harpist of the BBC Northern Ireland Orchestra before eventually becoming harpist for The Chieftains, and one of the most recognized and respected Celtic harpists in the world.

I know more than a few harpists who didn't start until their 50's, 60's and even 70's who became more than competent musicians. Have fun with it, but don't let your age become an excuse not to excel. But no matter how well you play it is always worth it.

@154, Newsom took me a while to warm up to. Her harp playing is good, but her voice is an acquired taste. Once I got used to it I learned to appreciate it. She's always very innovative. Also she's the niece of Gavin Newsom, so that makes me like her just for that.

One of my favorties is Monica Stadler http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4_jwWx1Z… .

She's my second favorite Jazz harpist. My favorite was my much missed late teacher, Ruth Berman-Harris ( http://www.amazon.com/Swing-Time-Ruth-Be… )

@159: Her records are The Milk-Eyed Mender, Ys (pronounced ees), and Have One On Me (which is a triple-album). All worth owning.

@161: Newsom's voice has gotten more "normal" over the years (apparently she had nodules removed from her vocal chords which permanently deepened it as well as reduced some of its vibrato). And the link was awesome, BTW.

As sympathetic as I am for LW1, he's has made a stronger case that he's the asshole, not the boyfriend.

He doesn't help his case by listing the boyfriend's demographics among the alleged offenses. LW1 is certainly entitled to hate rich kids, but he has no business forcing his prejudices upon his little brother. On the contrary, as a guardian, his obligation is to set his prejudices aside when it comes to his brother's partners.

And he lost me entirely by labeling typical teenage grab-assing as "disgusting" and citing that as evidence that the BF doesn't respect his brother. As shocking as this may sound, in some circles, telling someone they "look fuckable in those jeans" is considered a compliment.

As for whether the BF's behavior violates boundaries, I suppose it does (although notably, it is Dan, not LW1, who raises this complaint). But despite the fact that LW1 has been appointed legal guardian, he is not, in fact, his brother's parent. He is his brother's brother, which makes the BF's behavior a relatively minor offense. Imagining myself in LW1's shoes, the most outrage I can muster up at these PDAs is a slightly annoyed "get a fucking room."

Finally, if issuing authoritarian ultimatums on boyfriends didn't work for Lord Capulet, it isn't likely to work for LW1. Perhaps he should read A Heartbreaking Work of Staggering Genius for a model of how he can be his brother's guardian in a way that is authentic to his own level of maturity and his actual relationship to his brother.

@163: Imagine saying that shit in front of a 15-year old girl's dad!

Irrelevant. The scenario in question contains neither a 15 year old girl, nor a dad.

Let's not pretend the standards of etiquette surrounding gay courtship are the same as they are for straights. There are a lot of sexual liberties that gay men enjoy that simply do not fly in the straight world, and I haven't heard a whole lot of lament from gays over that fact.

Mr Hunter - I did in my [HA] segment, in which I stated that LW should, without being in the least flirtatious, divert BF's attention to himself and then react with shocked virtue when BF makes the inevitable move. Doing [BJ] and [non-BJ] posts in July has affected my rhythm in August, especially as we're not even getting any rerun letters.

I thank Dr Sean; I didn't want to be the first one to point out disgusting; I don't think even Rumpole Himself could make reasonable doubt for anything better than gay-tolerant as the Truth of LW's Heart.

@seandr

I'd consider all of those things a compliment - but I wouldn't want someone doing them in front of my brother. And If my younger brother were gay I'd think it was pretty rude for his boyfriend to do it in front of me.

Analogies aside the point is not that it's disrespectful to the younger brother, but that it's disrespectful to do in front of his guardian.

"Imagining myself in LW1's shoes, the most outrage I can muster up at these PDAs is a slightly annoyed "get a fucking room." "

Do you have a younger sibling you are responsible for the well-being of? Then if not I'll have to parrot your "irrelevant".

@Hunter78: Kidding about what?

LW1 makes it clear the BF rubs him the wrong way. He gives no evidence, however, that the BF actually mistreats his brother or behaves in any way that would justify his panic, nor his intrusive, controlling, and foolish effort to end the relationship. I'm working on the assumption that Dan didn't edit out the part about the meth addiction.

My first girlfriend was immature, controlling, and very jealous, and she treated me accordingly. Her crimes, which included cheating on me and and trying to isolate me from my friends, were far worse than anything listed in this letter. My parents knew the relationship sucked, but it would have been pointless, out of line, and disastrous for their relationship with me had they attempted to stop me from seeing her. Because duh.

The relationship ended after 9 months. My life wasn't ruined. I came out of it knowing at least 4 different ways to make a woman come. I learned that as wonderful as the vagina is, if it starts whipping you, head for the door. I wouldn't trade either of those lessons for anything.

LW1 needs to knock off the "father knows best" routine, show his brother some trust, and give him some room to figure shit out. He, himself, is barely an adult. He'll do much better by his brother if he approaches his new responsibilities with a clear understanding of his own limitations, although that's admittedly a lot to ask of your average 25 year old.

@170: As I said earlier, the LW fucked up with the "I forbid you" bullshit; but I give him a pass as he's been thrust into this position by a tragedy no one would be prepared for. That said, the BF's gratuitous grab-ass on top of the "Sorry, he's just so fuckable" line is so insanely out-of-pocket to do/say to one's BF's relatives that "disgusting" springs to mind with me as well, and I'm as gay and liberal as they come. Bad boundaries in front of family are a good indication of worse behavior in private. The LW was foolish to try to "iron fist" the situation, but I share his distrust and can't blame him for his dislike.

I just remembered something that never made much of an impression on me at the time. But I don't really know anything about cars. Is a Porsche on the same level as a BMW? I ask because my sister did briefly date somebody whose parents gave him a Porsche, and respect was not his strongest suit, though he never to my knowledge did anything comparable to the BF in this letter. He was never a shining character, but he didn't blow his legacy admission to a prestigious basketball school or his time there, and he's turned out better than one might have expected.

Porsches are higher-end than BMWs. Roughly, getting a BMW for your birthday= upper middle class. Getting a Porsche for your birthday= independently wealthy.

seandr-- I'm with you. See my comment 3, paragraph 5. I'm not coming up with anything too terrible.

When I read the "fuckable" comment, I attributed it to stupid teen slang, a bad choice of words, a way of saying "I really like this guy." When I saw the hand-on-ass thing, I thought it was a lamentably immature public display of affection, a little like a long kiss with tongue-- inappropriate for sure, rude in front of the parent figure, but nothing that would suggest true mistreatment or a terrible relationship.

It would seem we hold the minority opinion. After reading the accumulated comments, I started to think I was wrong, but now I'm back to my original stance.

@mydriasis: I wouldn't want someone doing them in front of my brother

If BF was ignoring the little brother's request to dial down the flirting, then your point would be relevant. But since there's no mention of little brother's perspective in any of this (a curious omission, I might add), I'm afraid it's not.

As I acknowledged above, the BF is definitely testing boundaries (not exactly an unusual thing for a teenager), maybe even asserting some dominance over the LW, and that's probably why LW's ass is so chapped. For that, BF has certainly earned a proverbial (or maybe even a literal) cuff on the head. But this by itself doesn't mean the guy is ruining the little brother's life, and certainly doesn't warrant LW's overreaction.

LW needs to stop trying to end the relationship, and start with the head cuffing.

Do you have a younger sibling you are responsible for the well-being of? Then if not I'll have to parrot your "irrelevant".

Better yet, I have 2 offspring whose well-being I'm responsible for.

Mr Rhone - My thanks.

As far as your disagreement with Dr Sean about LW's dislike, I think one could easily make the case that the LW disliked BF originally on very sketchy ground and got lucky, as it were, that BF gifted him better reasons. Remember, "no respect for my brother" is the FIFTH point of criticism, and comes after at least two points that don't require the skill of Phyllida Erskine Brown to make out to be Class Envy.

I suppose in the short term it's fine to approve the justified distrust, but for the future LW might want to be very clear about being able to distinguish between serious points against someone and personal dislike. Maybe he'll grow into it; he is new at this, as you point out.

@94 Crinoline
' I'd want to see evidence that your sister became such a good judge of character that she was able to avoid people who would hit her in the future.'

You are aware that abusers groom their victims? Hitting happens after emotional abuse and verbal abuse. It escalates to physical abuse, after the yelling doesn't work in intimidating/controlling their partners. An abuser isn't going to walk up to his victim and say 'Not now (because I am the charming person who won your heart), but in a few months/years, I will belittle and gaslight you. I will yell and rage to intimidate you. And when that no longer works to control you, then I will lay my hands upon you'.

ah-ha, lolorhone, you and Mr. Ophian get around! How do you expect us to keep up??

I like (lexically, of course) a number of posters here, but want (to read) more before I admit to a crush.

On topic - I'd just say that everyone in the brother-as-guardian scenario is going to take a while to work into the new roles & what they mean, and there will probably be missteps all round. Consider that the 25-year old has probably not even been living with the 15 year-old brother for several years, until the tragedy - which they are still probably grieving.

@123 re: @116: Harps are so cool! I'm a flutist!!
By the way, I LOVE your Bugs Bunny icon!
Bugs sure took care of ol' Giovanni Jones, didn't he?
Is there really such a thing as "alum"?

177-albeit-- I'm aware that grooming victims is ONE of the ways domestic violence gets started, but it's hardly the only one. There are certainly instances where the couple is still in the getting-to-know-you stage of dating when the guy throws a punch. It was this latter scenario that I envisioned Fortunate was describing in 91.

Still, let's go with the grooming idea for a moment. One would still hope that the woman became good at extricating herself from bad relationships before any violence occurred-- either from her boyfriend beating up on her or from her protective family feeling it necessary to beat up on him. One would hope that the woman recognized the direction things were going from the first insults, stood up for herself, and got out of there before things escalated, i.e., one would hope she became a good judge of character.

@164, 165: Thank you, Seandr, that's exactly my position. Watch out for Seeker6079. He thinks the boyfriend has the heads of other 15-year-olds in his freezer.

Oh, I think seandr's more than capable of thinking for himself without having some condescending enabler of fifteen-year-old-fuckers point out the big bad scary commenters for him.

@Hunter78: This will not last.

I don't know. Given how prone young urban gay men are to settling down with each other, I wouldn't be surprised if the two have since moved in together, traded in the Bimmer for a Subaru, adopted a couple of rescue dogs, and sent out wedding invitations.

@183: See, please, @185.
Somebody capable of that level of stonefaced sarcasm is well capable of defending himself.

@seeker: A quick note - in all your hand wringing about "predatory" fucking of "underage boys", you seemed to have completely missed the fact that the BF is only 17 years old.

Here's some irony I just have to share. You know the velociraptor I mentioned in @170 who dropped my heart in a blender and pressed "Puree"? She was a 15 year old sophomore when we started dating, and I was a 17 year old junior.

@Fortunate : Thanks for the fine links. Derek Bell was a prodigy, and had had a musical education from childhood - whereas I have never learned an instrument, nor much music. I don't think I can compare ! It doesn't bother me though. My most immediate harp goal is to grow my calluses so that I can exercise for more than an hour a day - that would be lovely.

@Grizelda : nice ! I guess you're playing a transverse flute, or is it a recorder ? I love both.

seander, no, I didn't mention that.

I was seventeen once. And if I thought about moving in on a fifteen year old girl who'd just lost both of her parents and was struggling with her new relationship with her sole surviving family member, seeking to put myself between her and that brother, I would have been -- and thought myself -- predatory. Seventeen is old enough to know that you don't behave that badly, that you show some respect for boundaries, for the partner's family, and for good manners. The BF has shown none of these, which makes him an asshole. To do it to a grieving kid under the age of consent is predatory and there is no way in heaven, hell or therapy that you can, or should be able to, sugarcoat or excuse it.

@189 - Agree 100%.

The 17 year old is behaving inappropriate. Older brother may not have handled it the best but it doesn't change the fact that the 17 year old, rich or not, entitled or not, abusive to the 15 year old or not, is behaving like an ass in a situation that makes his behavior even more ass like.

Telling an older brother how fuckable his little brother is, is crass, tackles and disrespectful. Grabbing little brother's ass in front of his family, parent, guardian, brother or whatever, is immature and inappropriate. That he still does it after older brother has told him not to means he is actively and openly defying the guardian of his boyfriend.

It's not that they may be fucking, and it's not the age difference, which is only two years (although 2 years at 15 and two years at 25 are not the same, still it's only two years).

It's that this 17 year old is not behaving like a decent person, particularly considering the circumstances.

And I see no reason to try to psychoanalize older brother. Sure, his first tact may not have been the best, but how many older, more experienced parents would have done the same exact thing? Considering that the kid is only 25, and thrust into a parenting role suddenly without preparation or any real choice, I think he deserves some slack. I seen no reason to question his motives like some are doing, or to try to read homophobia, or repressed sexuality issues or anything like that.

He's a 25 year old guy who suddenly, and without preparation, is now responsible for a teenaged boy and is trying to do the best he can. The guy deserves praise.

And as a protective brother myself I have every bit of sympathy for him and for his concerns.

17 year old is an ass. An inappropriate ass. Not because he has money, and not because he is a 17 year old dating a 15 year old. He is an ass because of his behavior, plain and simple.

@sissoucat - prodigy is an overused term. Derek would have been the first to balk at being called that. His talent wasnt some ability he was born with like a savant. His parents were told he would be blind by the time he was 3 (thankfully that was incorrect) so they focused on auditory stimuli and music from the time he was born. It was all training, just from a very young age.

Of course it's harder to learn as an adult. We aren't the sponges that little kids are. But still, I know people who started music later in life and became professionals. So you can be sure that you will improve as well as long as you work at it.

The calluses will come in time, but you don't want them too tough. Overly thick and tough calluses will effect the tone you produce. So long as it is limited to soreness it the finger tips and nothing else you just learn to play through it. But anything else be careful. I am getting over a case of CT and even a mild incidence of it is very, very unpleasant, and really interferes with practice (as in none at all for weeks).

@190: Uh, Fortunate, at the risk of starting something up again....

It's not clear from the letter that "he still does it after older brother has told him not to." If you read the letter, the boyfriend just deflects the older brother's criticism by saying, "Sorry, I can't keep my hands off such a hottie." The older brother doesn't say this behavior continued after the chastisement.

Since the older brother forbade the relationship, it's unlikely there were any further opportunities for the boyfriend to offend the older brother.

It's true that continuing the relationship is a defiance of the guardian's authority. But there's a big difference between that and continuing to be crude in front of someone who's asked you to stop.

the boyfriend just deflects the older brother's criticism by saying, "Sorry, I can't keep my hands off such a hottie."

That's not a deflection, that's a direct challenge wearing an apology hat.

The older brother doesn't say this behavior continued after the chastisement. [...] it's unlikely there were any further opportunities for the boyfriend to offend the older brother.

Yeah, because people write in about solved problems all the time, referring to them in the present tense.

@190 Soreness I usually deal with, by using microporous tape and playing on. But I've recenly found out that my fingers will blister even under the tape if I keep on playing. I'm a big softie, apparently ; several days in a row of non-practice and it's blisters again. Do you still get blisters ? My teacher told me she did, after each vacation... She plays way more than one hour a day, obviously, but her calluses disappear fast with non-playing, same as me.

CT means carpal tunnel, right ? I didn't know it could happen from harp playing. I'll be watchful of its signs.

Ever since I've taken up harp playing, I innerly whimper when I see a jazz bassist really going at it slap-style. That can't not hurt.

Almost 2am, wow, good night all !

@191 - He didn't deflect. When the older brother told him to stop he pretty much said "no".

He used the excuse that he "couldn't help it", but that is the same as saying, "I'm going to keep doing it".

Sissoucat - I do still get blisters, but typically only on the 3rd and 4th fingers of my left hand because those are the fingers that most often play the lower bass strings, and being made of wound metal they are the harshest on my fingers.

Some times if I am practicing something a lot that has a fair bit going on it the highest registers I might get a blister on the right hand from the very thin strings in the 1st and 00 octaves. I use nylon strings in the upper octaves and the thin nylon can really dig into the fingers even through calluses.

Yes, CT is carpal tunnel, and it is not uncommon in harpists, so be careful. Lots of stretching and lots of big movement when you can. If you play Salzedo technique use a lot of raising. It actually helps prevent repetitive motion injuries like CT and tendonitis.

Fortunate, and Seeker6079, I've already explained why your arguments are flawed. You're repeating yourselves. You don't listen. Arguing with you is like arguing with petulant children. My condolences to all those who are forced to deal with you in real life. I'm done.

Actually my last post to you was completely different than anything I have said on the subject so far and was a direct response to your statement.

It's not my fault that you aren't making convincing arguments and haven't given me any real reason to change my opinion on the matter.

See you haven't shown why my arguments are flawed. You have explained why you THINK they are flawed, but you haven't shown that the ARE flawed in reality. You thinking they are incorrect doesn't inherently make them incorrect. I know, that surprises you doesn't it? But it's just reality. I suggest you learn to deal with it before your blood pressure gets the best of you.

That you can't present a convincing argument to alter my stance is YOUR problem.

And talk about petulant child? Taking your ball and going home are you?

@188 sissoucat: I play two silver closed hole flutes, piccolo, and piano.
I started playing the flute at the age of 10, taking formal lessons from three different instructors throughout my adolescent and adult life, and taught myself to play the piano by ear. I think I do actually have a recorder somewhere!
I have also taken instrumental pedagogy on the following: oboe, french horn, trumpet, tuba, violin, cello, and string bass.

I will never be an expert on any of the above mentioned musical instruments or know everything here is to know, but learning the basics on other instrumental groups and expanding my orchestral repertoire has strengthened me as a composer.

Ok, let's change the sexes up a bit. If this was your sister or daughter, and her boyfriend was slapping her ass and telling you how fuckable she looked, would you not lose your shit? How is this any different? I think a sudden, unexpected fist to the mouth would not be wholly inappropriate. Act like a rude prick, expect to eat a fist now and then.

Why does there have to be an asshole or bad guy in Letter #1? Can't it just be circumstance causing conflict?

Yes, one should tone PDA down when others are present. But cut the BF some slack; he's 17: (1) really horny, (2) has few opportunities for private time, and (3) pushing socially acceptable boundaries. A hardcore teen crush is going to override any considerations of "This guy is vulnerable, he just lost his parents."

The LW would feel a need to regain control after such a major upheaval, so he tried to micromanage his brother's life. He's just starting out, charged with financially supporting his brother and soon sending him to college, so he's a little sore about a kid with rich parents. He's looking to his brother for emotional support in this tough time, and his brother so enthused about this new beau that he's not providing it.

Goodness knows I was a pain in the neck at 17, very inappropriate and disrespectful, but I like to think I'm a decent person in spite of that phase. I imagine if I lost my parents and were charged with providing for my siblings, I'd be overwhelmed and possibly freak out over some petty nonsense when all the stress got to me. I can see myself in both the boyfriend and brother's shoes.

@Fortunate I've been away from the net, and I don't know if you'll read this, but yeah, it's usually the 3rd and 4th finger of the left hand. The metal chords bite.

Though I've heard about Salzedo, I don't know anything about his technique. I'll ask my teacher ; as far as I know, what I've been learning is called French technique. Since Salzedo learned harp playing in France, maybe there are links, maybe he devised a totally different technique...